back to indexColin Angle: iRobot CEO | Lex Fridman Podcast #39
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The following is a conversation with Colin Engel.
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He's the CEO and cofounder of iRobot,
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a robotics company that for 29 years has been creating robots
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that operate successfully in the real world.
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Not as a demo or on a scale of dozens,
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but on a scale of thousands and millions.
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As of this year, iRobot has sold more than 25 million robots
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to consumers, including the Roomba vacuum cleaning robot,
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the Bravo floor mopping robot,
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and soon the Terra lawn mowing robot.
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29 million robots successfully operating autonomously
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in real people's homes.
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To me, it's an incredible accomplishment
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of science, engineering, logistics,
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and all kinds of general entrepreneurial innovation.
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Most robotics companies fail.
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iRobot has survived and succeeded for 29 years.
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I spent all day at iRobot, including a long tour
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and conversation with Colin about the history of iRobot,
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and then sat down for this podcast conversation
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that would have been much longer
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if I didn't spend all day learning about
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and playing with the various robots in the company's history.
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I'll release the video of the tour separately.
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Colin, iRobot, its founding team,
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its current team, and its mission
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has been and continues to be an inspiration to me
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and thousands of engineers who are working hard
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to create AI systems that help real people.
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This is the Artificial Intelligence Podcast.
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If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube,
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give it five stars on iTunes, support it on Patreon,
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or simply connect with me on Twitter
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at Lex Freedman, spelled F R I D M A N.
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And now, here's my conversation with Colin Engel.
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In his 1942 short story, Run Around,
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from his iRobot collection, Asimov,
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proposed the three laws of robotics in order,
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don't harm humans, obey orders, protect yourself.
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First, does the Roomba follow these three laws?
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And also, more seriously,
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what role do you hope to see robots take
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in modern society and in the future world?
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So the three laws are very thought provoking
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and require such a profound understanding
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of the world a robot lives in,
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the ramifications of its action
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and its own sense of self,
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that it's not a relevant bar,
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at least it won't be a relevant bar
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for decades to come.
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And so, if Roomba follows the three laws,
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and I believe it does,
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it is designed to help humans not hurt them,
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it's designed to be inherently safe,
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and we design it to last a long time.
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It's not through any AI or intent on the robot's part.
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It's because following the three laws
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is aligned with being a good robot product.
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So I guess it does,
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but not by explicit design.
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So then the bigger picture,
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what role do you hope to see robotics,
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robots take in what's currently mostly a world of humans?
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We need robots to help us continue
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to improve our standard of living.
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We need robots because the average age of humanity
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is increasing very quickly,
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and simply the number of people young enough
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and spry enough to care for the elder
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growing demographic is inadequate.
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And so what is the role of robots?
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Today, the role is to make our lives a little easier,
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a little cleaner, maybe a little healthier.
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But in time, robots are gonna be the difference
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between real gut wrenching declines
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in our ability to live independently
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and maintain our standard of living,
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and a future that is the bright one
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where we have more control of our lives,
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can spend more of our time focused
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on activities we choose.
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And I'm so honored and excited to be
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playing a role in that journey.
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So you've given me a tour,
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you showed me some of the long histories now,
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29 years that iRobot has been at it,
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creating some incredible robots.
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You showed me PacBot,
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you showed me a bunch of other stuff
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that led up to Roomba,
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that led to Brava and Tara.
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So let's skip that incredible history
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in the interest of time,
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because we already talked about it,
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I'll show this incredible footage.
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You mentioned elderly and robotics and society.
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I think the home is a fascinating place for robots to be.
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So where do you see robots in the home?
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Currently, I would say, once again,
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probably most homes in the world don't have a robot.
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So how do you see that changing?
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Where do you think is the big initial value add
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that robots can do?
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So iRobot has sort of over the years narrowed in on the home,
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the consumer's home as the place where we want to innovate
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and deliver tools that will help a home be
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a more automatically maintained place,
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a healthier place, a safer place
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and perhaps even a more efficient place to be.
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And today vacuum we mop, soon we'll be mowing your lawn,
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but where things are going is,
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when do we get to the point where the home,
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not just the robots that live in your home,
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but the home itself becomes part of a system
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that maintains itself and plays an active role
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in caring for and helping the people live in that home.
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And I see everything that we're doing
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as steps along the path toward that future.
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So what are the steps?
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So if we can summarize some of the history of Roomba,
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you've mentioned, and maybe you can elaborate on it,
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but you mentioned that the early days
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were really taking a robot from something that works
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either in the lab or something that works in the field
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that helps soldiers do the difficult work they do
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to actually be in the hands of consumers
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and tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of robots
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that don't break down over how much people love them
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over months of very extensive use.
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So that was the big first step.
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And then the second big step was the ability
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to sense the environment, to build a map, to localize,
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to be able to build a picture of the home
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that the human can then attach labels to
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in terms of giving some semantic knowledge
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to the robot about its environment.
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Okay, so that's like a huge, two big, huge steps.
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Maybe you can comment on them,
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but also what is the next step
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of making a robot part of the home?
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So the goal is to make a home that takes care of itself,
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takes care of the people in the home
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and gives a user an experience of just living their life
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and the home is somehow doing the right thing,
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turning on and off lights when you leave,
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cleaning up the environment.
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And we went from robots that were right in the lab,
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but were both too expensive and not sufficiently capable
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to ever do an acceptable job of anything
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other than being a toy or a curio in your home
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to something that was both affordable
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and sufficiently effective to drive,
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be above threshold and drive purchase intent.
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Now we've disrupted the intent of the work
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and now we've disrupted the entire vacuuming industry.
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The number one selling vacuums, for example, in the US
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are Roombas, so not robot vacuums,
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but vacuums and that's really crazy and weird.
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We need to pause that, I mean, that's incredible.
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That's incredible that a robot
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is the number one selling thing that does something.
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Something as essential as vacuuming.
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So we're... Congratulations.
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It's still kind of fun to say,
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but just because this was a crazy idea
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that just started in a room here,
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we're like, do you think we can do this?
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Hey, let's give it a try.
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But now the robots are starting
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to understand their environment.
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And if you think about the next step,
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there's two dimensions.
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I've been working so hard since the beginning of iRobot
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to make robots are autonomous,
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that they're smart enough and understand their task enough
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that they can just go do it without human involvement.
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Now what I'm really excited and working on
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is how do I make them less autonomous?
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Meaning that the robot is supposed to be your partner,
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not this automaton that just goes and does what a robot does.
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And so that if you tell it,
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hey, I just dropped some flour by the fridge in the kitchen.
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Can you deal with it?
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Wouldn't be awesome if the right thing just happened
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based on that utterance.
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And to some extent that's less autonomous
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because it's actually listening to you,
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understanding the context and intent of the sentence,
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mapping it against its understanding of the home it lives in
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and knowing what to do.
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And so that's an area of research.
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It's an area where we're starting to roll out features.
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You can now tell your robot to clean up the kitchen
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and it knows what the kitchen is and can do that.
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And that's sort of 1.0 of where we're going.
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The other cool thing is that
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we're starting to know where stuff is.
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And why is that important?
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Well, robots are supposed to have arms, right?
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Data had an arm, Rosie had an arm,
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Robbie the robot had an arm.
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I mean, robots are, you know,
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they are physical things that move around in an environment
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they're supposed to like do work.
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And if you think about it,
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if a robot doesn't know anything,
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where anything is, why should it have an arm?
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But with this new dawn of home understanding
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that we're starting to go enjoy,
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I know where the kitchen is.
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I might in the future know where the refrigerator is.
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I might, if I had an arm, be able to find the handle,
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open it and even get myself a beer.
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Obviously that's one of the true dreams of robotics
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is to have robots bringing us a beer
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while we watch television.
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But I think that that new category of tasks
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where physical manipulation, robot arms
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is just a popery of new opportunity and excitement.
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And you see humans as a crucial part of that.
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So you kind of mentioned that.
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And I personally find that a really compelling idea.
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I think full autonomy can only take us so far,
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especially in the home.
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So you see humans as helping the robot understand
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or give deeper meaning to the spatial information.
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Right, it's a partnership.
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The robot is supposed to operate according to descriptors
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that you would use to describe your own home.
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The robot is supposed to in lieu of better direction
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kind of go about its routine,
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which ought to be basically right
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and lead to a home maintained
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in a way that it's learned you like,
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but also be perpetually ready to take direction
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that would activate a different set of behaviors or actions
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to meet a current need
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to the extent it could actually perform that task.
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So I gotta ask you,
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I think this is a fundamental and a fascinating question
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because iRobot has been a successful company
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and a rare successful robotics company.
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So Anki, Gibo, Mayfield Robotics with a Robot Curry,
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SciFi Works, Rethink Robotics.
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These were robotics companies that were founded
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and run by brilliant people.
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But all very unfortunately, at least for us roboticists,
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and all went out of business recently.
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So why do you think they didn't last longer?
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Why do you think it is so hard
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to keep a robotics company alive?
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You know, I say this only partially in jest
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that back in the day before Roomba,
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you know, I was a high tech entrepreneur building robots,
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but it wasn't until I became a vacuum cleaner salesman
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that we had any success.
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So I mean, the point is technology alone
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doesn't equal a successful business.
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We need to go and find the compelling need
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where the robot that we're creating
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can deliver clearly more value
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to the end user than it costs.
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And this is not a marginal thing
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where you're looking at the skin, like, it's close.
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Maybe we can hold our breath and make it work.
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It's clearly more value than the cost of the robot
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to bring, you know, in the store.
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And I think that the challenge has been finding
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those businesses where that's true
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that's true in a sustainable fashion.
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You know, when you get into entertainment style things,
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you could be the cat's meow one year,
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but 85% of toys, regardless of their merit,
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fail to make it to their second season.
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It's just super hard to do so.
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And so that that's just a tough business.
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And there's been a lot of experimentation around
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what is the right type of social companion?
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What is the right robot in the home
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that is doing something other than tasks people do every week
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that they'd rather not do?
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And I'm not sure we've got it all figured out right.
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And so that you get brilliant roboticists
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with super interesting robots
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that ultimately don't quite have
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that magical user experience and thus the,
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that value benefit equation remains ambiguous.
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So you as somebody who dreams of robots,
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you know, changing the world,
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what's your estimate?
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Why, how big is the space of applications
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that fit the criteria that you just described
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where you can really demonstrate
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an obvious significant value
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over the alternative non robotic solution?
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Well, I think that we're just about none of the way
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to achieving the potential of robotics at home.
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But we have to do it in a really eyes wide open,
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And so another way to put that is the potential is infinite
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because we did take a few steps
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but you're saying those steps are just very initial steps.
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So the Roomba is a hugely successful product
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but you're saying that's just the very, very beginning.
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That's just the very, very beginning.
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It's the foot in the door.
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And, you know, I think I was lucky
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that in the early days of robotics,
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people would ask me, when are you gonna clean my floor?
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It was something that I grew up saying,
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I got all these really good ideas
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but everyone seems to want their floor clean.
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And so maybe we should do that.
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Yeah, your good ideas.
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Earn the right to do the next thing after that.
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So the good ideas have to match with the desire of the people
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and then the actual cost has to like the business,
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the financial aspect has to all match together.
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Yeah, during our partnership
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back a number of years ago with Johnson Wax,
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they would explain to me that they would go into homes
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and just watch how people lived
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and try to figure out what were they doing
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that they really didn't really like to do
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but they had to do it frequently enough
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that it was top of mind and understood as a burden.
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Hey, let's make a product
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or come up with a solution to make that pain point
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And sometimes we do certain burdens so often as a society
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that we actually don't even realize,
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like it's actually hard to see
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that that burden is something that could be removed.
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So it does require just going into the home
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and staring at, wait, how do I actually live life?
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What are the pain points?
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Yeah, and it getting those insights is a lot harder
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than it would seem it should be in retrospect.
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So how hard on that point,
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I mean, one of the big challenges of robotics
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is driving the cost to something,
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driving the cost down to something
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that consumers, people would afford.
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So people would be less likely to buy a Roomba
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if it costs $500,000, right?
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Which is probably sort of what a Roomba would cost
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several decades ago.
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So how do you drive, which I mentioned is very difficult.
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How do you drive the cost of a Roomba
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or a robot down such that people would want to buy it?
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When I started building robots,
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the cost of the robot had a lot to do
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with the amount of time it took to build it.
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And so that we would build our robots out of aluminum,
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I would go spend my time in the machine shop
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on the milling machine,
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cutting out the parts and so forth.
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And then when we got into the toy industry,
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I realized that if we were building at scale,
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I could determine the cost of the Roomba
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instead of adding up all the hours to mill out the parts,
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but by weighing it.
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And that's liberating.
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You can say, wow, the world has just changed
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as I think about construction in a different way.
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The 3D CAD tools that are available to us today,
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the operating at scale where I can do tooling
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and injection mold, an arbitrarily complicated part,
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and the cost is going to be basically
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the weight of the plastic in that part
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is incredibly exciting and liberating
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and opens up all sorts of opportunities.
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And for the sensing part of it, where we are today
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is instead of trying to build skin,
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which is like really hard for a long time.
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I spent creating strategies and ideas
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around how could we duplicate the skin on the human body
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because it's such an amazing sensor.
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Instead of going down that path,
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why don't we focus on vision?
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And how many of the problems that face a robot
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trying to do real work could be solved
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with a cheap camera and a big ass computer?
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And Moore's Law continues to work.
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The cell phone industry, the mobile industry
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is giving us better and better tools
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that can run on these embedded computers.
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And I think we passed an important moment,
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maybe two years ago, where you could put
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machine vision capable processors on robots
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at consumer price points.
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And I was waiting for it to happen.
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We avoided putting lasers on our robots
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to do navigation and instead spent years researching
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how to do vision based navigation
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because you could just see it
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where these technology trends were going
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and between injection molded plastic
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and a camera with a computer
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capable of running machine learning
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and visual object recognition,
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I could build an incredibly affordable,
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incredibly capable robot
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and that's gonna be the future.
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So you know, on that point with a small tangent
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but I think an important one,
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another industry in which I would say
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the only other industry in which there is automation
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actually touching people's lives today
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is autonomous vehicles.
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What the vision is described of using computer vision
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and using cheap camera sensors,
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there's a debate on that of LiDAR versus computer vision
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and sort of the Elon Musk famously said
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that LiDAR is a crutch that really in the long term,
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camera only is the right solution
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which echoes some of the ideas you're expressing.
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Of course, the domain
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in terms of its safety criticality is different.
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But what do you think about that approach
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in the autonomous vehicle space?
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And in general, do you see a connection
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between the incredible real world challenges
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you have to solve in the home with Roomba
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and I saw a demonstration of some of them,
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corner cases literally and autonomous vehicles.
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So there's absolutely a tremendous overlap
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between both the problems, you know,
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a robot vacuum and autonomous vehicle are trying to solve
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and the tools and the types of sensors
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that are being applied in the pursuit of the solutions.
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In my world, my environment is actually much harder
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than the environment in automobile travels.
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We don't have roads, we have t shirts, we have steps,
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we have a near infinite number of patterns and colors
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and surface textures on the floor.
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Especially from a visual perspective.
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Yeah, visually it's really tough.
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Is an infinitely variable.
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On the other hand, safety is way easier on the inside.
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My robots, they're not very heavy,
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they're not very fast.
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If they bump into your foot, you think it's funny.
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And, you know, and autonomous vehicles
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kind of have the inverse problem.
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And so that for me saying vision is the future,
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I can say that without reservation.
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For autonomous vehicles, I think I believe what Elon's saying
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about the future is ultimately gonna be vision.
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Maybe if we put a cheap lighter on there
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as a backup sensor, it might not be the worst idea
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So the stakes are much higher.
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The stakes are much higher.
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You have to be much more careful thinking through
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how far away that future is.
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Right, but I think that the primary
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environmental understanding sensor
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is going to be a visual system.
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So on that point, well, let me ask,
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do you hope there's an iRobot robot in every home
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in the world one day?
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I expect there to be at least one iRobot robot
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You know, we've sold 25 million robots.
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So we're in about 10% of US homes,
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which is a great start.
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But I think that when we think about the numbers
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of things that robots can do, you know,
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today I can vacuum your floor, mop your floor,
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cut your lawn or soon we'll be able to cut your lawn.
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But there are more things that we could do in the home.
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And I hope that we continue using the techniques
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I described around exploiting computer vision
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and low cost manufacturing that we'll be able
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to create these solutions at affordable price points.
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So let me ask, on that point of a robot in every home,
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that's my dream as well.
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I'd love to see that.
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I think the possibilities there are indeed
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infinite positive possibilities.
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But in our current culture, no thanks to science fiction
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and so on, there's a serious kind of hesitation
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and anxiety, concern about robots
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and also a concern about privacy.
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And it's a fascinating question to me
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why that concern is amongst a certain group of people
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is as intense as it is.
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So you have to think about it
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because it's a serious concern,
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but I wonder how you address it best.
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So from a perspective of a vision sensor,
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so robots that move about the home and sense the world,
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how do you alleviate people's privacy concerns?
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How do you make sure that they can trust iRobot
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and the robots that they share their home with?
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I think that's a great question.
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And we've really leaned way forward on this
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because given our vision as to the role the company
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intends to play in the home,
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really for us, make or break is,
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can our approach be trusted to protecting the data
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and the privacy of the people who have our robots?
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And so we've gone out publicly
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with a privacy manifesto stating we'll never sell your data.
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We've adopted GDPR, not just where GDPR is required,
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but globally, we have ensured that images
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don't leave the robot.
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So processing data from the visual sensors
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happens locally on the robot
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and only semantic knowledge of the home
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with the consumer's consent is sent up.
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We show you what we know
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and are trying to go use data as an enabler
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for the performance of the robots
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with the informed consent and understanding
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of the people who own those robots.
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And we take it very seriously.
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And ultimately, we think that by showing a customer
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that if you let us build a semantic map of your home
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and know where the rooms are,
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well, then you can say clean the kitchen.
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If you don't want the robot to do that,
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don't make the map,
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it'll do its best job cleaning your home,
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but it won't be able to do that.
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And if you ever want us to forget
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that we know that it's your kitchen,
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you can have confidence that we will do that for you.
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So we're trying to go and be a sort of a data 2.0
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perspective company where we treat the data
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that the robots have of the consumer's home
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as if it were the consumer's data
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and that they have rights to it.
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So we think by being the good guys on this front,
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we can build the trust and thus be entrusted
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to enable robots to do more things that are thoughtful.
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You think people's worries will diminish over time?
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As a society, broadly speaking,
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do you think you can win over trust,
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not just for the company,
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but just the comfort of people have with AI in their home
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enriching their lives in some way?
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I think we're an interesting place today
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where it's less about winning them over
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and more about finding a way to talk about privacy
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in a way that more people can understand.
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I would tell you that today,
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when there's a privacy breach,
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people get very upset and then go to the store
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and buy the cheapest thing,
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paying no attention to whether or not the products
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that they're buying honor privacy standards or not.
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In fact, if I put on the package of my Roomba,
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the privacy commitments that we have,
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I would sell less than I would if I did nothing at all
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and that needs to change.
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So it's not a question about earning trust.
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I think that's necessary but not sufficient.
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We need to figure out how to have a comfortable set
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of what is the grade A meat standard applied to privacy
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that customers can trust and understand
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and then use in the buying decisions.
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That will reward companies for good behavior
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and that will ultimately be how this moves forward.
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And maybe be part of the conversation
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between regular people about what it means,
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what privacy means.
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If you have some standards, you can say,
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you can start talking about who's following them,
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who's not, have more.
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Because most people are actually quite clueless
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about all aspects of artificial intelligence
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or data collection and so on.
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It would be nice to change that
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for people to understand the good that AI can do
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and it's not some system that's trying to steal
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all the most sensitive data.
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Do you think, do you dream of a Roomba
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with human level intelligence one day?
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So you've mentioned a very successful localization
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and mapping of the environment,
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being able to do some basic communication
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to say go clean the kitchen.
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Do you see in your maybe more bored moments,
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once you get the beer,
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just sit back with that beer
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and have a chat on a Friday night with the Roomba
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about how your day went.
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So through your latter question, absolutely.
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To your former question as to whether Roomba
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can have human level intelligence, not in my lifetime.
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You can have you, you can have a great conversation,
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a meaningful conversation with a robot
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without it having anything
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that resembles human level intelligence.
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And I think that as long as you realize
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that conversation is not about the robot
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and making the robot feel good.
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That conversation is about you learning interesting things
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that make you feel like the conversation
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that you had with the robot is
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a pretty awesome way of learning something.
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And it could be about what kind of day your pet had.
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It could be about, how can I make my home
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more energy efficient?
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It could be about, if I'm thinking about
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climbing Mount Everest, what should I know?
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And that's a very doable thing.
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But if I think that that conversation
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I'm gonna have with the robot is,
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I'm gonna be rewarded by making the robot happy.
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But I could have just put a button on the robot
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that you could push and the robot would smile
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and that sort of thing.
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So I think you need to think about the question
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And robots can be awesomely effective
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at helping people feel less isolated,
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learn more about the home that they live in
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and fill some of those lonely gaps
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that we wish we were engaged
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learning cool stuff about our world.
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Last question, if you could hang out for a day
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with a robot from science fiction, movies, books
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and safely pick, safely pick its brain for that day,
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who would you pick?
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I think that data is really smart.
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Data's been through a lot trying to go and save the galaxy
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and I'm really interested actually in emotion and robotics.
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And I think you'd have a lot to say about that
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because I believe actually that emotion plays
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an incredibly useful role in doing reasonable things
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in situations where we have imperfect understanding
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of what's going on.
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In social situations when there's imperfect information.
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In social situations also in competitive
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or dangerous situations,
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that we have emotion for a reason.
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And so that ultimately, my theory is that as robots
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get smarter and smarter,
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they're actually going to get more emotional
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because you can't actually survive on pure logic.
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Because only a very tiny fraction of the situations
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we find ourselves in can be resolved reasonably with logic.
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And so I think data would have a lot to say about that
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and so I could find out whether he agrees.
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What, if you could ask data one question
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and you would get a deep, honest answer to,
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what would you ask?
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What's Captain Picard really like?
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Okay, I think that's the perfect way to end the call
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and thank you so much for talking today.
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I really appreciate it.