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Gilbert Strang: Linear Algebra, Teaching, and MIT OpenCourseWare | Lex Fridman Podcast #52


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The following is a conversation with Gilbert Strang.
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He's a professor of mathematics in MIT
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and perhaps one of the most famous
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and impactful teachers of math in the world.
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His MIT OpenCourseWare lectures on linear algebra
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have been viewed millions of times.
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As an undergraduate student,
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I was one of those millions of students.
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There's something inspiring about the way he teaches.
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There's a once calm, simple, yet full of passion
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for the elegance inherent to mathematics.
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I remember doing the exercises in his book,
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Introduction to Linear Algebra,
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and slowly realizing that the world of matrices,
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of vector spaces, of determinants and eigenvalues,
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of geometric transformations and matrix decompositions
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reveal a set of powerful tools
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And now, here's my conversation with Gilbert Strang.
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How does it feel to be one of the modern day rock stars
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of mathematics?
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I don't feel like a rock star.
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That's kind of crazy for old math person.
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But it's true that the videos in linear algebra
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that I made way back in 2000, I think,
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have been watched a lot.
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And well, partly the importance of linear algebra,
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which I'm sure you'll ask me and give me a chance to say
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that linear algebra as a subject is just surged
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in importance.
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But also, it was a class that I taught a bunch of times.
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So I kind of got it organized and enjoyed doing it.
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It was just, the videos were just the class.
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So they're on open courseware and on YouTube
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and translated, and it's fun.
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But there's something about that chalkboard
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and the simplicity of the way you explain the basic concepts
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in the beginning, to be honest, when I went to undergrad.
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You didn't do linear algebra, probably.
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Of course I did linear algebra.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
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But before going through the course at my university,
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I was going through open courseware.
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You were my instructor for linear algebra.
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And that, I mean, we were using your book.
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And I mean, the fact that there is thousands,
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you know, hundreds of thousands, millions of people
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that watch that video, I think that's really powerful.
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So how do you think the idea of putting lectures online,
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what really MIT Open Courseware has innovated?
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That was a wonderful idea.
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You know, I think the story that I've heard
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is the committee was appointed by the president,
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President Vest at that time, a wonderful guy.
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And the idea of the committee was to figure out
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how MIT could be like other universities,
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market the work we were doing.
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And then they didn't see a way.
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And after a weekend and they had an inspiration
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and came back to the president Vest and said,
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what if we just gave it away?
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And he decided that was okay, good idea.
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So...
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You know, that's a crazy idea.
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That's, if we think of a university as a thing
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that creates a product,
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isn't knowledge, the kind of educational knowledge
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isn't the product and giving that away.
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Are you surprised that you went through?
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The result that he did it.
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Well, knowing a little bit President Vest
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was like him, I think.
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And it was really the right idea, you know.
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MIT is a kind of, it's known for being high level,
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technical things.
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And this is the best way we can say,
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tell, we can show what MIT really is like.
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Because in my case, those 1806 videos
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are just teaching the class.
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They were there in 26, 100.
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They're kind of fun to look at.
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People write to me and say,
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oh, you've got a sense of humor,
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but I don't know where that comes through.
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It's somehow friendly with the class.
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I like students.
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And linear algebra, the subject,
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we gotta give the subject most of the credit.
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It really has come forward in importance in these years.
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So let's talk about linear algebra a little bit.
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Cause it is such a, it's both a powerful and a beautiful
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a subfield of mathematics.
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So what's your favorite specific topic in linear algebra
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or even math in general to give a lecture on,
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to convey, to tell a story, to teach students?
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Okay.
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Well, on the teaching side,
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so it's not deep mathematics at all,
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but I'm kind of proud of the idea of the four subspaces,
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the four fundamental subspaces,
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which are of course known before,
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long before my name for them, but...
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Can you go through them?
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Can you go through the four subspaces?
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Sure I can.
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Yeah.
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So the first one to understand is,
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so the matrix, maybe I should say the matrix.
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What is the matrix?
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What's a matrix?
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Well, so we have like a rectangle of numbers.
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So it's got n columns, got a bunch of columns
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and also got an m rows, let's say.
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And the relation between,
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so of course the columns and the rows,
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it's the same numbers.
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So there's gotta be connections there,
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but they're not simple.
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The columns might be longer than the rows
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and they're all different.
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The numbers are mixed up.
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First space to think about is, take the columns.
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So those are vectors, those are points in dimensions.
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What's a vector?
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So a fist test would imagine a vector
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or might imagine a vector as a arrow in space
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or the point it ends at in space.
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For me, it's a column of numbers.
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You often think of, this is very interesting
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in terms of linear algebra, in terms of a vector.
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You think a little bit more abstract
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than how it's very commonly used perhaps.
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You think this arbitrary multidimensional space.
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I'm right away, I'm in high dimensions and in the...
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Dreamland.
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Yeah, that's right, in the lecture, I try to...
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So if you think of two vectors in 10 dimensions,
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I'll do this in class and I'll readily admit
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that I have no good image in my mind
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of a vector of an arrow in 10 dimensional space,
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but whatever, you can add one bunch of 10 numbers
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to another bunch of 10 numbers.
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So you can add a vector to a vector
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and you can multiply a vector by three.
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And that's, if you know how to do those,
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you've got linear algebra.
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You know, 10 dimensions, there's this beautiful thing
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about math, if you look at string theory
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and all these theories,
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which are really fundamentally derived through math,
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but are very difficult to visualize.
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How do you think about the things
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like a 10 dimensional vector
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that we can't really visualize?
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And yet math reveals some beauty
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underlying our world in that weird thing we can't visualize.
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How do you think about that difference?
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Well, probably I'm not a very geometric person,
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so I'm probably thinking in three dimensions
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and the beauty of linear algebra is that
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it goes on to 10 dimensions with no problem.
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I mean, if you're just seeing what happens
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if you add two vectors in 3D,
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you then you can add them in 10D.
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You're just adding the 10 components.
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So I can't say that I have a picture,
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but yet I try to push the class
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to think of a flat surface in 10 dimensions.
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So a plane in 10 dimensions.
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And so that's one of the spaces.
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Take all the columns of the matrix,
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take all their combinations,
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so much of this column, so much of this one.
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Then if you put all those together,
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you get some kind of a flat surface
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that I call a vector space, space of vectors.
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And my imagination is just seeing
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like a piece of paper in 3D.
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But anyway, so that's one of the spaces,
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that's space number one,
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the column space of the matrix.
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And then there's the row space,
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which is, as I said, different,
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but came from the same numbers.
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So we got the column space,
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all combinations of the columns.
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And then we got the row space,
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all combinations of the rows.
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So those words are easy for me to say,
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and I can't really draw them on a blackboard,
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but I try with my thick chalk.
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Everybody likes that railroad chalk.
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And me too, I wouldn't use anything else now.
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And then the other two spaces are perpendicular to those.
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So like if you have a plane in 3D,
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just a plane is just a flat surface in 3D,
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then perpendicular to that plane would be a line.
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So that would be the null space.
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So we've got two, we've got a column space,
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a row space, and there are two perpendicular spaces.
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So those four fit together
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in a beautiful picture of a matrix.
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Yeah, yeah, it's sort of fundamental.
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It's not a difficult idea.
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It comes pretty early in 1806, and it's basic.
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So planes in these multi dimensional spaces,
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how difficult of an idea is that to come to?
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Do you think if you look back in time,
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I think mathematically it makes sense,
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but I don't know if it's intuitive for us to imagine,
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just as what we're talking about.
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Feels like calculus is easier to intuit.
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Well, calculus, I have to admit calculus came earlier,
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earlier than linear algebra.
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So Newton and Leibniz were the great men
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to understand the key ideas of calculus.
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But linear algebra to me is like,
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okay, it's the starting point,
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because it's all about flat things.
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Calculus has got all the complications of calculus
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come from the curves, the bending, the curved surfaces.
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Linear algebra, the surfaces are all flat.
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Nothing bends in linear algebra.
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So it should have come first, but it didn't.
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And calculus also comes first in high school classes,
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and in college class, it'll be freshman math,
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it'll be calculus.
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And then I say, enough of it.
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Like, okay, get to the good stuff.
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And that's...
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Do you think linear algebra should come first?
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Well, it really, I'm okay with it not coming first,
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but it should, yeah, it should.
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It's simpler.
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Because everything's flat.
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Yeah, everything's flat.
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Well, of course, for that reason,
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calculus sort of sticks to one dimension,
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or eventually you do multivariate,
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but that basically means two dimensions.
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Linear algebra, you take off into 10 dimensions, no problem.
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It just feels scary and dangerous
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to go beyond two dimensions, that's all.
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If everything's flat, you can't go wrong.
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So what concept or theorem in linear algebra or in math
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you find most beautiful?
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That gives you pause that leaves you in awe?
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Well, I'll stick with linear algebra here.
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I hope the viewer knows that really mathematics
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is an amazing, amazing subject
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and deep connections between ideas
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that didn't look connected.
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Some, they turned out they were.
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But if we stick with linear algebra,
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so we have a matrix, that's like the basic thing,
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a rectangle of numbers.
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And it might be a rectangle of data,
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you're probably gonna ask me later about data science,
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where often data comes in a matrix,
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you have maybe every column corresponds
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to a drug and every row corresponds to a patient.
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And if the patient reacted favorably to the drug,
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then you put up some positive number in there.
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Anyway, rectangle of numbers, matrix is basic.
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So the big problem is to understand all those numbers.
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You got a big set of numbers.
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And what are the patterns, what's going on?
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And so one of the ways to break down that
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matrix into simple pieces is,
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uses something called singular values.
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And that's come on as fundamental in the last
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and certainly in my lifetime.
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Eigen values, if you have viewers who've done engineering
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math or basic linear algebra,
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Eigen values were in there.
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But those are restricted to square matrices
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and data comes in rectangular matrices.
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00:17:02.740
So you gotta take that next step.
link |
00:17:05.700
I'm always pushing math faculty, get on, do it, do it,
link |
00:17:11.300
do it, singular values.
link |
00:17:14.140
So those are a way to find the important pieces
link |
00:17:21.460
of the matrix, which add up to the whole matrix.
link |
00:17:24.860
So you're breaking a matrix into simple pieces.
link |
00:17:29.060
And the first piece is the most important part of the data,
link |
00:17:33.260
the second piece is the second most important part.
link |
00:17:36.180
And then often, so a data scientist will like,
link |
00:17:41.540
if a data scientist can find those first and second pieces,
link |
00:17:46.540
stop there, the rest of the data is probably round off,
link |
00:17:54.820
experimental error maybe.
link |
00:17:57.620
So you're looking for the important part.
link |
00:18:00.180
So what do you find beautiful about singular values?
link |
00:18:03.020
Well, yeah, I didn't give the theorem.
link |
00:18:06.260
So here's the idea of singular values.
link |
00:18:09.380
Every matrix, every matrix, rectangular, square,
link |
00:18:14.100
whatever, can be written as a product
link |
00:18:16.980
of three very simple special matrices.
link |
00:18:20.020
So that's the theorem.
link |
00:18:21.340
Every matrix can be written as a rotation
link |
00:18:24.620
times a stretch, which is just a matrix,
link |
00:18:28.820
a diagonal matrix, otherwise all zeros
link |
00:18:31.660
except on the one diagonal.
link |
00:18:34.220
And then the third factor is another rotation.
link |
00:18:37.980
So rotation, stretch, rotation is the breakup
link |
00:18:42.620
of any matrix.
link |
00:18:45.940
The structure, the ability that you can do that,
link |
00:18:48.460
what do you find appealing?
link |
00:18:49.860
What do you find beautiful about it?
link |
00:18:51.060
Well, geometrically, as I freely admit,
link |
00:18:54.260
the action of a matrix is not so easy to visualize,
link |
00:18:59.620
but everybody can visualize a rotation.
link |
00:19:02.380
Take two dimensional space and just turn it
link |
00:19:07.780
around the center.
link |
00:19:09.260
Take three dimensional space.
link |
00:19:10.740
So a pilot has to know about, well,
link |
00:19:13.540
what are the three, yaw is one of them?
link |
00:19:16.860
I've forgotten all the three turns that a pilot makes.
link |
00:19:22.260
Up to 10 dimensions, you've got 10 ways to turn,
link |
00:19:25.460
but you can visualize a rotation.
link |
00:19:28.540
Take the space and turn it.
link |
00:19:30.300
And you can visualize a stretch.
link |
00:19:32.100
So to break a matrix with all those numbers in it
link |
00:19:37.100
into something you can visualize, rotate, stretch, rotate.
link |
00:19:42.380
It's pretty neat.
link |
00:19:43.620
It's pretty neat.
link |
00:19:44.460
That's pretty powerful.
link |
00:19:46.580
On YouTube, just consuming a bunch of videos
link |
00:19:50.580
and just watching what people connect with
link |
00:19:52.660
and what they really enjoy and are inspired by,
link |
00:19:56.060
math seems to come up again and again.
link |
00:20:00.140
I'm trying to understand why that is.
link |
00:20:02.660
Perhaps you can help give me clues.
link |
00:20:05.340
So it's not just the kinds of lectures that you give,
link |
00:20:10.780
but it's also just other folks
link |
00:20:13.140
like with Numberphile, there's a channel
link |
00:20:15.300
where they just chat about things
link |
00:20:16.980
that are extremely complicated, actually.
link |
00:20:19.900
People nevertheless connect with them.
link |
00:20:22.860
What do you think that is?
link |
00:20:24.620
It's wonderful, isn't it?
link |
00:20:25.860
I mean, I wasn't really aware of it.
link |
00:20:28.540
We're conditioned to think math is hard, math is abstract,
link |
00:20:33.660
math is just for a few people,
link |
00:20:35.300
but it isn't that way.
link |
00:20:36.620
A lot of people quite like math and I get messages
link |
00:20:42.540
from people saying, you know, now I'm retired,
link |
00:20:45.060
I'm gonna learn some more math.
link |
00:20:46.820
I get a lot of those, it's really encouraging.
link |
00:20:49.980
And I think what people like is that there's some order,
link |
00:20:53.500
a lot of order and things are not obvious,
link |
00:20:58.860
but they're true.
link |
00:21:00.420
So it's really cheering to think that so many people
link |
00:21:06.180
really want to learn more about math.
link |
00:21:08.980
In terms of truth, again, I'm sorry to slide
link |
00:21:14.300
into philosophy at times, but math does reveal
link |
00:21:18.860
pretty strongly what things are true.
link |
00:21:21.900
I mean, that's the whole point of proving things.
link |
00:21:24.060
And yet sort of our real world is messy and complicated.
link |
00:21:30.820
What do you think about the nature of truth
link |
00:21:33.220
that math reveals?
link |
00:21:34.660
Oh, wow.
link |
00:21:35.500
Because it is a source of comfort, like you've mentioned.
link |
00:21:37.980
Yeah, that's right.
link |
00:21:39.540
Well, I have to say, I'm not much of a philosopher.
link |
00:21:43.020
I just like numbers, you know, as a kid,
link |
00:21:47.100
this was before you had to go in
link |
00:21:52.100
when you had a filling in your teeth,
link |
00:21:54.060
you had to kind of just take it.
link |
00:21:56.060
So what I did was think about math,
link |
00:21:59.220
like take powers of two, two, four, eight, 16,
link |
00:22:03.100
up until the time the tooth stopped hurting
link |
00:22:05.900
and the dentist said you're through.
link |
00:22:08.700
Or counting, yeah, so.
link |
00:22:11.620
So that was a source of just, a source of peace, almost.
link |
00:22:14.740
Yeah.
link |
00:22:16.580
What is it about math do you think that brings that?
link |
00:22:19.740
Yeah.
link |
00:22:20.580
What is that?
link |
00:22:21.420
I don't know where you are.
link |
00:22:22.460
Yeah, symmetry, it's certainty.
link |
00:22:25.900
The fact that, you know, if you multiply two
link |
00:22:29.380
by itself 10 times, you get 1,024 period.
link |
00:22:33.300
Everybody's gonna get that.
link |
00:22:34.980
Do you see math as a powerful tool or as an art form?
link |
00:22:39.100
So it's both, that's really one of the neat things.
link |
00:22:42.500
You can be an artist and like math,
link |
00:22:46.460
you can be an engineer and use math.
link |
00:22:51.020
Which are you?
link |
00:22:51.980
Which?
link |
00:22:52.820
Which am I?
link |
00:22:53.660
What did you connect with most?
link |
00:22:54.900
Yeah, I'm somewhere between.
link |
00:22:57.380
I'm certainly not a artist type, philosopher type person.
link |
00:23:01.620
Might sound that way this morning, but I'm not.
link |
00:23:06.500
Yeah, I really enjoy teaching engineers
link |
00:23:09.700
because they go for an answer.
link |
00:23:13.300
And yeah, so probably within the MIT Math Department,
link |
00:23:18.300
most people enjoy teaching students
link |
00:23:23.220
who get the abstract idea.
link |
00:23:25.580
I'm okay with, I'm good with engineers
link |
00:23:30.820
who are looking for a way to find answers.
link |
00:23:33.180
Yeah.
link |
00:23:34.020
Actually, that's an interesting question.
link |
00:23:36.380
Do you think for teaching and in general,
link |
00:23:39.820
thinking about new concepts,
link |
00:23:41.300
do you think it's better to plug in the numbers
link |
00:23:44.340
or to think more abstractly?
link |
00:23:47.340
So looking at theorems and proving the theorems
link |
00:23:51.340
or actually building up a basic intuition of the theorem
link |
00:23:56.340
or the methodology approach
link |
00:23:57.900
and then just plugging in numbers and seeing it work?
link |
00:24:01.060
Yeah, well, certainly many of us like to see examples.
link |
00:24:07.180
First, we understand,
link |
00:24:08.980
it might be a pretty abstract sounding example
link |
00:24:11.940
like a three dimensional rotation.
link |
00:24:14.620
How are you gonna understand a rotation in 3D?
link |
00:24:20.620
Or in 10D?
link |
00:24:25.940
And then some of us like to keep going with it
link |
00:24:28.940
to the point where you got numbers,
link |
00:24:30.620
where you got 10 angles, 10 axes, 10 angles.
link |
00:24:34.940
But the best, the great mathematicians is probably,
link |
00:24:40.940
I don't know if they do that
link |
00:24:41.940
because for them, an example would be
link |
00:24:48.940
a highly abstract thing to the rest of us.
link |
00:24:51.940
Right, but nevertheless working in the space of examples.
link |
00:24:54.940
Yeah, examples.
link |
00:24:55.940
It seems to...
link |
00:24:56.940
It's examples of structure.
link |
00:24:58.940
Our brains seem to connect with that.
link |
00:25:00.940
Yeah, yeah.
link |
00:25:01.940
So I'm not sure if you're familiar with them
link |
00:25:04.940
but Andrew Yang is a presidential candidate
link |
00:25:08.940
currently running with math
link |
00:25:12.940
in all capital letters and his hats as a slogan.
link |
00:25:15.940
I see.
link |
00:25:16.940
Stands for make America think hard.
link |
00:25:18.940
Okay, I'll vote for him.
link |
00:25:22.940
And his name rhymes with yours, Yang Strang.
link |
00:25:25.940
But he also loves math and he comes from that world
link |
00:25:28.940
but he also looking at it makes me realize
link |
00:25:33.940
that math, science, and engineering
link |
00:25:35.940
are not really part of our politics,
link |
00:25:38.940
political discourse about political life,
link |
00:25:41.940
government in general.
link |
00:25:42.940
Yeah.
link |
00:25:43.940
Why do you think that is?
link |
00:25:45.940
Well...
link |
00:25:46.940
What are your thoughts on that in general?
link |
00:25:48.940
Well, certainly somewhere in the system
link |
00:25:50.940
we need people who are comfortable with numbers,
link |
00:25:54.940
comfortable with quantities,
link |
00:25:56.940
you know, if you say this leads to that,
link |
00:26:00.940
they see it and it's undeniable.
link |
00:26:04.940
But isn't that strange to you that we have almost no...
link |
00:26:08.940
I mean, I'm pretty sure we have no elected officials
link |
00:26:12.940
in Congress or obviously the president
link |
00:26:16.940
that either has an engineering degree or math.
link |
00:26:21.940
Yeah, well, that's too bad.
link |
00:26:23.940
A few could...
link |
00:26:26.940
A few who could make the connection.
link |
00:26:29.940
Yeah, it would have to be people who are...
link |
00:26:32.940
who understand engineering or science
link |
00:26:35.940
and at the same time can make speeches and lead.
link |
00:26:42.940
Yeah.
link |
00:26:43.940
Yeah, inspire people.
link |
00:26:44.940
Yeah, inspire.
link |
00:26:45.940
Yeah.
link |
00:26:46.940
You were, speaking of inspiration,
link |
00:26:48.940
the president of the Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics.
link |
00:26:51.940
Oh, yes.
link |
00:26:53.940
It's a major organization in math and applied math.
link |
00:26:56.940
What do you see as a role of that society,
link |
00:26:59.940
you know, in our public discourse?
link |
00:27:01.940
Right.
link |
00:27:02.940
In public?
link |
00:27:03.940
Yeah.
link |
00:27:04.940
So, well, it was fun to be president at the time.
link |
00:27:07.940
A couple years.
link |
00:27:08.940
Two years.
link |
00:27:09.940
Two years, around 2000.
link |
00:27:12.940
There's hope that's present of a pretty small society.
link |
00:27:16.940
But nevertheless, it was a time when math was getting some...
link |
00:27:20.940
more attention in Washington.
link |
00:27:23.940
But, yeah, I got to give a little 10 minutes
link |
00:27:28.940
to a committee of the House of Representatives
link |
00:27:32.940
talking about who I met.
link |
00:27:34.940
And then, actually, it was fun,
link |
00:27:36.940
because one of the members of the House
link |
00:27:41.940
had been a student, had been in my class.
link |
00:27:43.940
What do you think of that?
link |
00:27:45.940
Yeah, as you say, a pretty rare.
link |
00:27:47.940
Most members of the House have had a different training,
link |
00:27:50.940
different background,
link |
00:27:52.940
but there was one from New Hampshire
link |
00:27:55.940
who was my friend, really, by being in the class.
link |
00:28:01.940
Yeah.
link |
00:28:02.940
So, those years were good.
link |
00:28:04.940
Then, of course, other things take over
link |
00:28:09.940
and importance in Washington.
link |
00:28:11.940
And math, just at this point, is not so visible.
link |
00:28:17.940
But for a little moment, it was.
link |
00:28:19.940
There's some excitement, some concern
link |
00:28:22.940
about artificial intelligence in Washington now.
link |
00:28:25.940
Yes, sure.
link |
00:28:26.940
About the future.
link |
00:28:27.940
And I think at the core of that is math.
link |
00:28:29.940
Well, it is, yeah.
link |
00:28:31.940
Maybe it's hidden.
link |
00:28:32.940
Maybe it's wearing a different hat.
link |
00:28:34.940
Well, artificial intelligence,
link |
00:28:37.940
and particularly, can I use the words, deep learning,
link |
00:28:40.940
if the deep learning is a particular approach
link |
00:28:43.940
to understanding data.
link |
00:28:46.940
Again, you've got a big whole lot of data.
link |
00:28:49.940
Data is just swamping the computers of the world
link |
00:28:55.940
and to understand it,
link |
00:28:58.940
to out of all those numbers to find what's important
link |
00:29:01.940
in climate and everything.
link |
00:29:04.940
And artificial intelligence is two words
link |
00:29:07.940
for one approach to data.
link |
00:29:10.940
Deep learning is a specific approach there,
link |
00:29:14.940
which uses a lot of linear algebra.
link |
00:29:16.940
So, I got into it.
link |
00:29:18.940
I thought, okay, I've got to learn about this.
link |
00:29:20.940
So, maybe from your perspective,
link |
00:29:23.940
let me ask the most basic question.
link |
00:29:26.940
Yeah.
link |
00:29:27.940
How do you think of a neural network?
link |
00:29:29.940
What is a neural network?
link |
00:29:30.940
Yeah, okay.
link |
00:29:31.940
So, can I start with the idea about deep learning?
link |
00:29:36.940
What does that mean?
link |
00:29:37.940
Sure.
link |
00:29:38.940
What is deep learning?
link |
00:29:39.940
What is deep learning?
link |
00:29:40.940
Yeah.
link |
00:29:41.940
So, we're trying to learn from all this data,
link |
00:29:45.940
we're trying to learn what's important,
link |
00:29:47.940
what's it telling us.
link |
00:29:49.940
So, you've got data.
link |
00:29:52.940
You've got some inputs for which you know the right outputs.
link |
00:29:56.940
The question is, can you see the pattern there?
link |
00:30:01.940
Can you figure out a way for a new input,
link |
00:30:03.940
which we haven't seen, to get the,
link |
00:30:07.940
to understand what the output will be from that new input.
link |
00:30:11.940
So, we've got a million inputs with their outputs.
link |
00:30:14.940
So, we're trying to create some pattern,
link |
00:30:18.940
some rule that will take those inputs,
link |
00:30:21.940
those million training inputs,
link |
00:30:23.940
which we know about, to the correct million outputs.
link |
00:30:27.940
And this idea of a neural net is part of the structure
link |
00:30:34.940
of our new way to create a rule.
link |
00:30:40.940
We're looking for a rule that will take these training inputs
link |
00:30:45.940
to the known outputs.
link |
00:30:47.940
And then we're going to use that rule on new inputs
link |
00:30:51.940
that we don't know the output and see what comes.
link |
00:30:55.940
Linear algebra is a big part of defining that rule.
link |
00:30:58.940
That's right. Linear algebra is a big part.
link |
00:31:01.940
Not all the part.
link |
00:31:03.940
People were leaning on matrices, that's good, still do.
link |
00:31:07.940
Linear is something special.
link |
00:31:09.940
It's all about straight lines and flat planes.
link |
00:31:13.940
And data isn't quite like that, you know.
link |
00:31:18.940
It's more complicated.
link |
00:31:20.940
So, you've got to introduce some complication.
link |
00:31:23.940
You have to have some function that's not a straight line.
link |
00:31:26.940
And it turned out nonlinear, nonlinear, not linear.
link |
00:31:30.940
And it turned out that it was enough to use the function
link |
00:31:34.940
that's one straight line and then a different one.
link |
00:31:37.940
Halfway, so piecewise linear.
link |
00:31:40.940
One piece has one slope, one piece,
link |
00:31:44.940
the other piece has a second slope.
link |
00:31:46.940
And so, getting that nonlinear,
link |
00:31:51.940
simple nonlinearity in blew the problem open.
link |
00:31:55.940
That little piece makes it sufficiently complicated
link |
00:31:57.940
to make things interesting.
link |
00:31:59.940
Exactly, because you're going to use that piece
link |
00:32:01.940
over and over a million times.
link |
00:32:03.940
So, it has a fold in the graph.
link |
00:32:07.940
The graph is two pieces.
link |
00:32:09.940
But when you fold something a million times,
link |
00:32:12.940
you've got a pretty complicated function
link |
00:32:16.940
that's pretty realistic.
link |
00:32:18.940
So, that's the thing about neural networks is
link |
00:32:21.940
they have a lot of these.
link |
00:32:23.940
A lot of these.
link |
00:32:24.940
So, why do you think neural networks
link |
00:32:28.940
by using a, so formulating an objective function,
link |
00:32:34.940
very not a plain function of the,
link |
00:32:38.940
lots of folds of the inputs, the outputs,
link |
00:32:41.940
why do you think they work to be able to find a rule
link |
00:32:46.940
that we don't know is optimal,
link |
00:32:48.940
but it just seems to be pretty good in a lot of cases.
link |
00:32:52.940
What's your intuition?
link |
00:32:54.940
Is it surprising to you as it is to many people?
link |
00:32:57.940
Do you have an intuition of why this works at all?
link |
00:33:00.940
Well, I'm beginning to have a better intuition.
link |
00:33:03.940
This idea of things that are piecewise linear,
link |
00:33:07.940
flat pieces, but with folds between them.
link |
00:33:11.940
Like, think of a roof of an infinitely complicated house
link |
00:33:16.940
or something, that curve, it almost curved,
link |
00:33:20.940
but every piece is flat.
link |
00:33:23.940
That's been used by engineers.
link |
00:33:26.940
That idea has been used by engineers, is used by engineers.
link |
00:33:30.940
Big time, something called the finite element method.
link |
00:33:33.940
If you want to design a bridge,
link |
00:33:36.940
design a building, design an airplane,
link |
00:33:40.940
you're using this idea of piecewise flat
link |
00:33:45.940
as a good, simple, computable approximation.
link |
00:33:51.940
But you have a sense that there's a lot of expressive power
link |
00:33:56.940
in this kind of piecewise linear.
link |
00:33:58.940
You use the right word.
link |
00:34:00.940
If you measure the expressivity,
link |
00:34:03.940
how complicated a thing can this piecewise flat guy's
link |
00:34:09.940
express, the answer is very complicated.
link |
00:34:14.940
What do you think are the limits of such piecewise linear
link |
00:34:19.940
or just neural networks, the expressivity of neural networks?
link |
00:34:23.940
Well, you would have said a while ago
link |
00:34:25.940
that they're just computational limits.
link |
00:34:28.940
It's a problem beyond a certain size.
link |
00:34:32.940
A supercomputer isn't going to do it.
link |
00:34:35.940
But those keep getting more powerful.
link |
00:34:38.940
So that limit has been moved to allow
link |
00:34:43.940
more and more complicated surfaces.
link |
00:34:46.940
So in terms of just mapping from inputs to outputs,
link |
00:34:51.940
looking at data, what do you think of,
link |
00:34:57.940
in the context in neural networks in general,
link |
00:34:59.940
data is just tensors, vectors, matrices, tensors.
link |
00:35:04.940
How do you think about learning from data?
link |
00:35:09.940
How much of our world can be expressed in this way?
link |
00:35:12.940
How useful is this process?
link |
00:35:15.940
I guess that's another way to ask,
link |
00:35:17.940
what are the limits of this approach?
link |
00:35:19.940
Well, that's a good question, yeah.
link |
00:35:21.940
So I guess the whole idea of deep learning
link |
00:35:23.940
is that there's something there to learn.
link |
00:35:25.940
If the data is totally random,
link |
00:35:28.940
just produced by random number generators,
link |
00:35:30.940
then we're not going to find a useful rule
link |
00:35:35.940
because there isn't one.
link |
00:35:37.940
So the extreme of having a rule
link |
00:35:40.940
is like knowing Newton's law,
link |
00:35:42.940
if you hit a ball and it moves.
link |
00:35:45.940
So that's where you had laws of physics.
link |
00:35:48.940
Newton and Einstein and other great people
link |
00:35:53.940
have found those laws
link |
00:35:56.940
and laws of the distribution of oil
link |
00:36:03.940
in an underground thing.
link |
00:36:06.940
So engineers, petroleum engineers,
link |
00:36:11.940
understand how oil will sit in an underground basin.
link |
00:36:17.940
So there were rules.
link |
00:36:20.940
Now the new idea of artificial intelligence is
link |
00:36:25.940
to find the rules.
link |
00:36:27.940
Instead of figuring out the rules
link |
00:36:29.940
with help from Newton or Einstein,
link |
00:36:32.940
the computer is looking for the rules.
link |
00:36:35.940
So that's another step.
link |
00:36:37.940
But if there are no rules at all
link |
00:36:39.940
that the computer could find,
link |
00:36:41.940
if it's totally random data,
link |
00:36:43.940
well, you've got nothing.
link |
00:36:45.940
You've got no science to discover.
link |
00:36:48.940
It's automated search for the underlying rules.
link |
00:36:51.940
Yeah, search for the rules, yeah, exactly.
link |
00:36:54.940
And there will be a lot of random parts.
link |
00:36:57.940
I mean, I'm not knocking random
link |
00:36:59.940
because that's there.
link |
00:37:02.940
There's a lot of randomness built in,
link |
00:37:06.940
but there's got to be some basic structure.
link |
00:37:10.940
There's got to be some signal.
link |
00:37:12.940
If it's all noise, then you're not going to get anywhere.
link |
00:37:16.940
Well, this world around us
link |
00:37:18.940
does seem to always have a signal of some kind
link |
00:37:22.940
to be discovered.
link |
00:37:24.940
Right, that's it.
link |
00:37:26.940
So what excites you more?
link |
00:37:29.940
We just talked about a little bit of application.
link |
00:37:32.940
What excites you more, theory
link |
00:37:34.940
or the application of mathematics?
link |
00:37:37.940
Well, for myself,
link |
00:37:40.940
I'm probably a theory person.
link |
00:37:43.940
I'm speaking here pretty freely about applications,
link |
00:37:48.940
but I'm not the person who really...
link |
00:37:52.940
I'm not a physicist or a chemist or a neuroscientist.
link |
00:37:56.940
So for myself, I like the structure
link |
00:38:02.940
and the flat subspaces
link |
00:38:05.940
and the relation of matrices, columns to rows.
link |
00:38:11.940
That's my part in the spectrum.
link |
00:38:16.940
So really, science is a big spectrum of people
link |
00:38:21.940
from asking practical questions and answering them
link |
00:38:25.940
using some math,
link |
00:38:27.940
then some math guys like myself who are in the middle of it,
link |
00:38:32.940
and then the geniuses of math and physics and chemistry
link |
00:38:39.940
who are finding fundamental rules
link |
00:38:42.940
and doing really understanding nature.
link |
00:38:49.940
That's incredible.
link |
00:38:51.940
At its lowest, simplest level,
link |
00:38:54.940
maybe just a quick and broad strokes from your perspective.
link |
00:38:58.940
Where does linear algebra sit as a subfield of mathematics?
link |
00:39:04.940
What are the various subfields that you think about
link |
00:39:09.940
in relation to linear algebra?
link |
00:39:11.940
So the big fields of math are algebra as a whole
link |
00:39:17.940
and problems like calculus and differential equations.
link |
00:39:20.940
So that's a second quite different field
link |
00:39:23.940
than maybe geometry.
link |
00:39:25.940
It deserves to be thought of as a different field
link |
00:39:29.940
to understand the geometry of high dimensional surfaces.
link |
00:39:34.940
So I think...
link |
00:39:36.940
Am I allowed to say this here?
link |
00:39:39.940
This is where personal view comes in.
link |
00:39:45.940
I think we're thinking about undergraduate math,
link |
00:39:51.940
what millions of students study.
link |
00:39:53.940
I think we overdo the calculus at the cost of the algebra,
link |
00:40:00.940
at the cost of linear.
link |
00:40:02.940
See if this dog titled calculus versus linear algebra.
link |
00:40:04.940
That's right.
link |
00:40:06.940
And you say that linear algebra wins.
link |
00:40:09.940
Can you dig into that a little bit?
link |
00:40:13.940
Why does linear algebra win?
link |
00:40:16.940
Right.
link |
00:40:17.940
Well, okay.
link |
00:40:19.940
The viewer is going to think this guy is biased.
link |
00:40:22.940
Not true.
link |
00:40:24.940
I'm just telling the truth as it is.
link |
00:40:27.940
So I feel linear algebra is just a nice part of math
link |
00:40:31.940
that people can get the idea of.
link |
00:40:34.940
They understand something that's a little bit abstract,
link |
00:40:37.940
because once you get to 10 or 100 dimensions,
link |
00:40:41.940
and very, very, very useful.
link |
00:40:44.940
That's what's happened in my lifetime,
link |
00:40:47.940
is the importance of data,
link |
00:40:52.940
which does come in matrix form.
link |
00:40:54.940
So it's really set up for algebra.
link |
00:40:56.940
It's not set up for differential equation.
link |
00:40:58.940
And let me fairly add probability.
link |
00:41:03.940
This is a probability.
link |
00:41:05.940
And statistics have become very, very important.
link |
00:41:08.940
I've also jumped forward.
link |
00:41:10.940
And that's different from linear algebra.
link |
00:41:13.940
Quite different.
link |
00:41:14.940
So now we really have three major areas to me.
link |
00:41:19.940
Calculus, linear algebra, matrices,
link |
00:41:25.940
and probability statistics.
link |
00:41:28.940
And they all deserve an important place.
link |
00:41:33.940
And calculus has traditionally had a lion's share of the time.
link |
00:41:40.940
A disproportionate share.
link |
00:41:41.940
Thank you. Disproportionate.
link |
00:41:43.940
That's a good word.
link |
00:41:45.940
Of the love and attention from the excited young minds.
link |
00:41:52.940
I know it's hard to pick favorites,
link |
00:41:55.940
but what is your favorite matrix?
link |
00:41:57.940
My favorite matrix.
link |
00:41:59.940
Okay.
link |
00:42:00.940
So my favorite matrix is square.
link |
00:42:02.940
I admit it.
link |
00:42:03.940
It's a square bunch of numbers.
link |
00:42:05.940
And it has twos running down the main diagonal.
link |
00:42:09.940
And on the next diagonal,
link |
00:42:12.940
so think of top left to bottom right,
link |
00:42:15.940
twos down the middle of the matrix.
link |
00:42:18.940
And minus ones just above those twos
link |
00:42:21.940
and minus ones just below those twos.
link |
00:42:24.940
And otherwise all zeros. So mostly zeros.
link |
00:42:27.940
Just three nonzero diagonals coming down.
link |
00:42:32.940
What is interesting about it?
link |
00:42:33.940
Well, all the different ways it comes up.
link |
00:42:36.940
You see it in engineering.
link |
00:42:38.940
You see it as analogous in calculus to second derivative.
link |
00:42:43.940
So calculus learns about taking the derivative,
link |
00:42:46.940
figuring out how fast something's changing.
link |
00:42:50.940
But second derivative.
link |
00:42:52.940
Now that's also important.
link |
00:42:55.940
That's how fast the change is changing.
link |
00:42:58.940
How fast the graph is bending.
link |
00:43:01.940
How fast it's curving.
link |
00:43:05.940
And Einstein showed that that's fundamental to understand space.
link |
00:43:11.940
So second derivatives should have a bigger place in calculus.
link |
00:43:16.940
Second, my matrices which are like the linear algebra
link |
00:43:23.940
version of second derivatives are neat in linear algebra.
link |
00:43:29.940
Yeah.
link |
00:43:30.940
Just everything comes out right with those guys.
link |
00:43:32.940
Beautiful.
link |
00:43:34.940
What did you learn about the process of learning
link |
00:43:37.940
by having taught so many students math over the years?
link |
00:43:42.940
Oh, that is hard. I'll have to admit here that I'm not really
link |
00:43:49.940
a good teacher because I don't get into the exam part.
link |
00:43:55.940
The exam is the part of my life that I don't like.
link |
00:43:58.940
And grading them and giving the students A or B or whatever.
link |
00:44:03.940
I do it because I'm supposed to do it.
link |
00:44:07.940
But I tell the class at the beginning.
link |
00:44:11.940
I don't know if they believe me. Probably they don't.
link |
00:44:14.940
I tell the class, I'm here to teach you.
link |
00:44:17.940
I'm here to teach you math and not to grade you.
link |
00:44:21.940
But they're thinking, OK, this guy, is he going to give me
link |
00:44:27.940
an A minus?
link |
00:44:28.940
Is he going to give me a B plus?
link |
00:44:30.940
What did you learn about the process of learning?
link |
00:44:33.940
Of learning.
link |
00:44:34.940
Yeah.
link |
00:44:35.940
Well, maybe to give you a legitimate answer about learning,
link |
00:44:40.940
I should have paid more attention to the assessment,
link |
00:44:44.940
the evaluation part at the end.
link |
00:44:46.940
But I like the teaching part at the start.
link |
00:44:49.940
That's the sexy part, to tell somebody for the first time
link |
00:44:53.940
about a matrix. Wow.
link |
00:44:55.940
Are there moments, so you are teaching a concept,
link |
00:45:01.940
are there moments of learning that you just see
link |
00:45:04.940
in the students eyes?
link |
00:45:05.940
You don't need to look at the grades.
link |
00:45:07.940
You see in their eyes that you hook them,
link |
00:45:10.940
that you connect with them in a way where they fall in love
link |
00:45:17.940
with this beautiful world of math.
link |
00:45:20.940
They see that it's got some beauty there.
link |
00:45:23.940
Or conversely, that they give up at that point.
link |
00:45:27.940
It's the opposite.
link |
00:45:28.940
The darker say that math, I'm just not good at math.
link |
00:45:31.940
I don't want to walk away.
link |
00:45:33.940
Maybe because of the approach in the past,
link |
00:45:37.940
they were discouraged, but don't be discouraged.
link |
00:45:40.940
It's too good to miss.
link |
00:45:43.940
Yeah.
link |
00:45:44.940
Well, if I'm teaching a big class, do I know when,
link |
00:45:49.940
I think maybe I do.
link |
00:45:51.940
Sort of, I mentioned at the very start,
link |
00:45:55.940
the four fundamental subspaces and the structure
link |
00:46:00.940
of the fundamental theorem of linear algebra.
link |
00:46:03.940
The fundamental theorem of linear algebra.
link |
00:46:06.940
That is the relation of those four subspaces.
link |
00:46:11.940
Those four spaces.
link |
00:46:12.940
Yeah.
link |
00:46:13.940
So I think that I feel that the class gets it.
link |
00:46:17.940
Let me see.
link |
00:46:18.940
Yeah.
link |
00:46:19.940
What advice do you have to a student just starting
link |
00:46:22.940
their journey in mathematics today?
link |
00:46:24.940
How do they get started?
link |
00:46:26.940
No.
link |
00:46:27.940
Yeah, that's hard.
link |
00:46:29.940
Well, I hope you have a teacher,
link |
00:46:33.940
a professor who is still enjoying what he's doing,
link |
00:46:39.940
what he's teaching.
link |
00:46:40.940
He's still looking for new ways to teach
link |
00:46:43.940
and to understand math.
link |
00:46:47.940
Because that's the pleasure to the moment when you see,
link |
00:46:52.940
oh yeah, that works.
link |
00:46:54.940
So it says about the material you study.
link |
00:46:57.940
It's more about the source of the teacher
link |
00:47:01.940
being full of passion.
link |
00:47:03.940
Yeah, more about the fun.
link |
00:47:05.940
The fun.
link |
00:47:06.940
The moment of getting it.
link |
00:47:09.940
But in terms of topics, linear algebra?
link |
00:47:13.940
Well, that's my topic.
link |
00:47:16.940
But oh, there's beautiful things in geometry to understand.
link |
00:47:20.940
What's wonderful is that in the end, there's a pattern there.
link |
00:47:26.940
There are rules that are followed in biology
link |
00:47:33.940
as there are in every field.
link |
00:47:36.940
You describe the life of a mathematician as 100% wonderful,
link |
00:47:44.940
except for the grade stuff.
link |
00:47:46.940
Except for grades.
link |
00:47:48.940
Yeah, when you look back at your life,
link |
00:47:51.940
what memories bring you the most joy and pride?
link |
00:47:55.940
Well, that's a good question.
link |
00:47:58.940
I certainly feel good when I maybe I'm giving a class in 1806.
link |
00:48:05.940
That's MIT's linear algebra course that I started.
link |
00:48:08.940
So there's a good feeling that, OK, I started this course.
link |
00:48:12.940
A lot of students take it.
link |
00:48:14.940
Quite a few like it.
link |
00:48:16.940
Yeah, so I'm sort of happy when I feel
link |
00:48:21.940
I'm helping make a connection between ideas and students,
link |
00:48:26.940
between theory and the reader.
link |
00:48:31.940
Yeah.
link |
00:48:33.940
I get a lot of very nice messages from people who've watched the videos
link |
00:48:40.940
and it's inspiring.
link |
00:48:42.940
I'll maybe take this chance to say thank you.
link |
00:48:46.940
Well, there's millions of students who you've taught
link |
00:48:50.940
and I am grateful to be one of them.
link |
00:48:53.940
So Gilbert, thank you so much.
link |
00:48:55.940
It's been an honor.
link |
00:48:56.940
Thank you for talking today.
link |
00:48:57.940
It was a pleasure.
link |
00:48:58.940
Thanks.
link |
00:48:59.940
Thank you for listening to this conversation with Gilbert Strang.
link |
00:49:03.940
And thank you to our presenting sponsor, Cash App.
link |
00:49:06.940
Download it.
link |
00:49:07.940
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link |
00:49:09.940
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link |
00:49:12.940
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link |
00:49:15.940
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link |
00:49:19.940
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link |
00:49:22.940
We've got five stars in Apple Podcasts.
link |
00:49:25.940
Support on Patreon.
link |
00:49:26.940
I'll connect with me on Twitter.
link |
00:49:28.940
Finally, some closing words of advice from the great Richard Feynman.
link |
00:49:33.940
Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined,
link |
00:49:37.940
irreverent, and original manner possible.
link |
00:49:40.940
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.