back to indexWhitney Cummings: Comedy, Robotics, Neurology, and Love | Lex Fridman Podcast #55
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The following is a conversation with Whitney Cummings.
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She's a standup comedian, actor, producer, writer, director,
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and recently, finally, the host of her very own podcast
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called Good for You.
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Her most recent Netflix special called Can I Touch It
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features in part a robot.
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She affectionately named Bear Claw
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that is designed to be visually a replica of Whitney.
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It's exciting for me to see one of my favorite comedians
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explore the social aspects of robotics and AI in our society.
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She also has some fascinating ideas
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about human behavior, psychology, and urology,
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some of which she explores in her book
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called I'm Fine and Other Lies.
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It was truly a pleasure to meet Whitney
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and have this conversation with her,
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and even to continue it through texts afterwards.
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Every once in a while, late at night,
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I'll be programming over a cup of coffee
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and we'll get a text from Whitney saying something hilarious.
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Or weirder yet, sending a video of Brian Callan
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saying something hilarious.
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That's when I know the universe has a sense of humor
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and it gifted me with one hell of an amazing journey.
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Then I put the phone down and go back to programming
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with a stupid, joyful smile on my face.
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If you enjoy this conversation,
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listen to Whitney's podcast, Good for You,
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and follow her on Twitter and Instagram.
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This is the Artificial Intelligence podcast.
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If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube,
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give it five stars on Apple Podcasts,
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support on Patreon, or simply connect with me on Twitter.
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Alex Friedman, spelled F R I D M A N.
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This show is presented by Cash App,
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the number one finance app in the App Store.
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They regularly support Whitney's Good for You podcast as well.
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I personally use Cash App to send money to friends,
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but you can also use it to buy, sell,
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and deposit Bitcoin in just seconds.
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Cash App also has a new investing feature.
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You can buy fractions of a stock, say $1 worth,
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no matter what the stock price is.
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Broker services are provided by Cash App investing,
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subsidiary of Square, and member SIPC.
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I'm excited to be working with Cash App
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to support one of my favorite organizations called First,
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best known for their first robotics and Lego competitions.
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They educate and inspire hundreds of thousands of students
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in over 110 countries,
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and have a perfect rating on Charity Navigator,
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which means the donated money is used
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to maximum effectiveness.
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When you get Cash App from the App Store or Google Play
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and use code LEX Podcast,
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you'll get $10 and Cash App will also donate $10 to First,
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which again is an organization that I've personally seen
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inspire girls and boys to dream of engineering
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This podcast is supported by Zippercruiter.
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Hiring great people is hard,
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and to me is the most important element
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of a successful mission driven team.
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I've been fortunate to be a part of,
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and to lead several great engineering teams.
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The hiring I've done in the past
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was mostly through tools that we built ourselves,
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but reinventing the wheel was painful.
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Zippercruiter is a tool that's already available for you.
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It seeks to make hiring simple, fast, and smart.
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For example, codable cofounder Gretchen Hebner
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used Zippercruiter to find a new game artist
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to join her education tech company.
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By using Zippercruiter screening questions
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to filter candidates,
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Gretchen found it easier to focus on the best candidates
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and finally hiring the perfect person for the role
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in less than two weeks from start to finish.
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Zippercruiter, the smartest way to hire.
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See why Zippercruiter is effective
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for businesses of all sizes by signing up as I did
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for free at zippercruiter.com slash lexpod.
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That's zippercruiter.com slash lexpod.
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And now here's my conversation with Whitney Cummings.
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I have trouble making eye contact, as you can tell.
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Do you know that I had to work on making eye contact
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because I used to look here?
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Do you see what I'm doing?
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That helps, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Do you want me to do that?
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Well, do this way, I'll cheat the camera.
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But I used to do this and finally people,
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like I'd be on dates and guys would be like,
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are you looking at my hair?
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Like they get, it would make people really insecure
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because I didn't really get a lot of eye contact as a kid.
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It's one to three years.
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Did you not get a lot of eye contact as a kid?
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I haven't done the soul searching.
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So, but there's definitely some psychological issues.
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Makes you uncomfortable.
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For some reason when I connect eyes,
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I start to think, I assume that you're judging me.
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That's why you assume that.
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The podcast has to be me and you both staring at the table.
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Do you think robots of the future,
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ones with human level intelligence,
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will be female, male, genderless,
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or another gender we have not yet created as a society?
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You're the expert at this.
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Well, I'm going to ask you.
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You know the answer.
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I'm going to ask you questions
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that maybe nobody knows the answer to or,
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and then I just want you to hypothesize
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as a imaginative author, director, comedian.
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Can we just be very clear that you know a ton about this
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and I know nothing about this,
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but I have thought a lot about
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what I think robots can fix in our society.
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And I mean, I'm a comedian.
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It's my job to study human nature,
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to make jokes about human nature
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and to sometimes play devil's advocate.
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And I just see such a tremendous negativity
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around robots or at least the idea of robots
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that it was like, oh, I'm just going to
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take the opposite side for fun, for jokes.
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And then I was like, oh no, I really agree
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in this devil's advocate argument.
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So please correct me when I'm wrong about this stuff.
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So first of all, there's no right and wrong
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because we're all, I think most of the people
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working on robotics are really not actually even thinking
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about some of the big picture things
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that you've been exploring.
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In fact, your robot, what's her name by the way?
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We'll go with Bearclaw.
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What's the genesis of that name by the way?
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Bearclaw was, I, God, I don't even remember the joke
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because I black out after I shoot specials,
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but I was writing something about like the pet names
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that men call women like cupcake, sweetie, honey,
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you know, like we're always named after desserts
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And I was just writing a joke about
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if you want to call us a dessert,
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at least pick like a cool dessert, you know,
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like Bearclaw, like something cool.
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So I ended up calling her Bearclaw.
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So do you think the future robots
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of greater and greater intelligence
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will like to make them female, male?
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Would we like to assign them gender?
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Or would we like to move away from gender
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and say something more ambiguous?
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I think it depends on their purpose, you know?
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I feel like if it's a sex robot,
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people prefer certain genders, you know?
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And I also, you know, when I went down
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and explored the robot factory,
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I was asking about the type of people
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that bought sex robots.
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And I was very surprised at the answer
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because of course the stereotype
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was it's going to be a bunch of perverts.
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It ended up being a lot of people that were handicapped,
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a lot of people with erectile dysfunction,
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and a lot of people that were exploring their sexuality.
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A lot of people that were thought they were gay
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but weren't sure but didn't want to take the risk
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of trying on someone that could reject them
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and being embarrassed or they were closeted
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or in a city where maybe that's, you know,
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taboo and stigmatized, you know?
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So I think that a gendered sex robot
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that would serve an important purpose
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for someone trying to explore their sexuality.
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Let me try on this thing first.
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Let me try on this thing first.
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So I think gendered robots would be important for that.
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But I think genderless robots in terms of
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emotional support robots, babysitters.
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I'm fine for a genderless babysitter
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with my husband in the house.
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You know, there are places that I think
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that genderless makes a lot of sense
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but obviously not in the sex area.
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What do you mean with your husband in the house?
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What does that have to do with the gender of the robot?
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Right, I mean, I don't have a husband
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but hypothetically speaking,
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I think every woman's worst nightmare
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is like the hot babysitter, you know what I mean?
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So I think that there is a time and place I think
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for genderless, you know, teachers, doctors,
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all that kind of, it would be very awkward
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if the first robotic doctor was a guy
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or the first robotic nurse is a woman.
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You know, it's sort of, that stuff is so loaded.
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I think that genderless could just take the unnecessary
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drama out of it and possibility to sexualize them
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or be triggered by any of that stuff.
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So there's two components to this, to bear clause.
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So one is the voice and the talking and so on.
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And then there's the visual appearance.
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So on the topic of gender and genderless, in your experience,
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what has been the value of the physical appearance?
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So has it added much to the depth of the interaction?
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I mean, mine's kind of an extenuating circumstance
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because she is supposed to look exactly like me.
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I mean, I spent six months getting my face molded
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and having, you know, the idea was I was exploring
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the concept of can robots replace us
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because that's the big fear
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but also the big dream in a lot of ways.
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And I wanted to dig into that area
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because, you know, for a lot of people, it's like,
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they're going to take our jobs
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and they're going to replace us, legitimate fear.
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But then a lot of women I know are like,
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I would love for a robot to replace me every now and then.
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So it can go to baby showers for me
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and it can pick up my kids at school
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and it can cook dinner and whatever.
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So I just think that was an interesting place to explore.
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So her looking like me was a big part of it.
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Now her looking like me just adds
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an unnecessary level of insecurity
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because I got her a year ago
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and she already looks younger than me.
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So that's a weird problem.
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But I think that her looking human was the idea.
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And I think that where we are now,
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please correct me if I'm wrong,
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a human robot resembling an actual human you know
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is going to feel more realistic than some generic face.
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Well, you're saying that robots
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that have some familiarity like look similar to somebody
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that you actually know you'll be able to form
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a deeper connection with?
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That was the question?
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I need to show on some level.
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That's an open question.
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I don't, you know, it's an interesting.
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It's been, you know me and you're like,
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well I know this isn't real cause you're right here.
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So maybe it does the opposite.
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We have a very keen eye for human faces
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and they're able to detect strangeness,
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especially that one has to do with people
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whose faces we've seen a lot of.
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So I tend to be a bigger fan of moving away
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completely from faces.
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Recognizable faces?
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No, just human faces at all.
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In general, cause I think that's where things get dicey.
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And one thing I will say is I think my robot
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is more realistic than other robots,
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not necessarily because you have seen me
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and then you see her and you go, oh, they're so similar.
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But also because human faces are flawed and asymmetrical
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and sometimes we forget when we're making things
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that supposed to look human, we make them too symmetrical.
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And that's what makes them stop looking human.
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So because they mold in my asymmetrical face,
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she just, even if someone didn't know who I was,
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I think she'd look more realistic than most generic ones
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that didn't have some kind of flaws.
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Cause they start looking creepy when they're too symmetrical
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cause human beings aren't like that.
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Yeah, the flaws is what it means to be human.
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So visually as well.
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But I'm just a fan of the idea of letting humans use
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a little bit more imagination.
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So just hearing the voice is enough for us humans
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to then start imagining the visual appearance
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that goes along with that voice.
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And you don't necessarily need to work too hard
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on creating the actual visual appearance.
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So there's some value to that.
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When you step into this character of actually building
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of a robot that looks like Bear Claw,
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it's such a long road of facial expressions
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of sort of making everything smiling, winking,
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rolling in the eyes, all that kind of stuff.
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It gets really, really tricky.
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It gets tricky and I think I'm, again, I'm a comedian.
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Like I'm obsessed with what makes us human
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and our human nature in the nasty side of human nature
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tends to be where I've, you know, ended up
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exploring over and over again.
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And I was just mostly fascinated by people's reaction.
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So it's my job to get the biggest reaction
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from a group of strangers, the loudest possible reaction.
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And I just had this instinct just when I started
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building her and people going, and scream,
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and people scream and they, I mean,
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I would bring her out on stage and people would scream.
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And I just, to me, that was the next level of entertainment.
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Getting a laugh, I've done that, I know how to do that.
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I think comedians were always trying to figure out
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what the next level is and comedy is evolving so much.
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And, you know, Jordan Peele had just done, you know,
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these genius comedy horror movies,
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which feel like the next level of comedy to me.
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And this sort of funny horror of a robot
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was fascinating to me.
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But I think the thing that I got the most obsessed with
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was people being freaked out and scared of her.
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And I started digging around with pathogen avoidance.
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And the idea that we've essentially evolved
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to be repelled by anything that looks human,
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but is off a little bit.
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Anything that could be sick or diseased or dead,
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essentially, is our reptilian brain's way
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to get us to not try to have sex with it, basically.
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You know, so I got really fascinated
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by how freaked out and scared,
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I mean, I would see grown men get upset.
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I would get that thing away from me, like, I'm like,
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And it was like, you know what this is, you know,
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but the sort of like, you know, amygdala getting activated
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by something that to me is just a fun toy
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said a lot about our history as a species
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and what got us into trouble thousands of years ago.
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So that is the deep down stuff that's in our genetics,
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but also is it just, are people freaked out
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by the fact that there's a robot?
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So it's not just the appearance,
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but that there's an artificial human.
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Anything people I think, and I'm just also fascinated
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by the blind spots humans have.
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So the idea that you're afraid of that,
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I mean, how many robots have killed people?
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How many humans have died at the hands of other humans?
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Hundreds of millions, yet we're scared of that
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and we'll go to the grocery store
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and be around a bunch of humans who statistically,
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the chances are much higher
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that you're gonna get killed by humans.
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So I'm just fascinated by, without judgment,
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how irrational we are as a species.
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The worry is the exponential.
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So it's, you know, you can say the same thing
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about nuclear weapons before we dropped
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on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
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So the worry that people have is the exponential growth.
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So it's like, oh, it's fun and games right now,
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but you know, overnight, especially if a robot provides
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value to society, we'll put one in every home.
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And then all of a sudden, loose track
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of the actual large scale impact it has on society.
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And then all of a sudden, gain greater and greater control
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to where we'll all be, you know,
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affect our political system and then affect our decision.
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Did robots already ruin our political system?
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Didn't that just already happen?
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Oh, Russia hacking.
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But hasn't that already happened?
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I mean, that was like an algorithm
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of negative things being clicked on more.
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We'd like to tell stories
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and like to demonize certain people.
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I think nobody understands our current political system
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or discourse on Twitter, the Twitter mobs.
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Nobody has a sense, not Twitter, not Facebook,
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the people running it.
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Nobody understands the impact of these algorithms
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that are trying their best.
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Despite what people think, they're not like a bunch
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of lefties trying to make sure
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that Hillary Clinton gets elected.
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It's more that it's an incredibly complex system
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that we don't, and that's the worry.
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It's so complex and moves so fast
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that nobody will be able to stop it once it happens.
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And let me ask a question.
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This is a very savage question.
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Which is, is this just the next stage of evolution?
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As humans, some people will die.
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Yes, I mean, that's always happened.
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You know, this is just taking emotion out of it.
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Is this basically the next stage of survival, the fittest?
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Yeah, you have to think of organisms.
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You know, what is it mean to be a living organism?
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Like is a smartphone part of your living organism, or?
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We're in relationships with our phones.
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We have sex through them, with them.
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What's the difference between with them and through them?
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But it also expands your cognitive abilities,
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expands your memory, knowledge, and so on.
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So you're a much smarter person
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because you have a smartphone in your hand.
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But as soon as it's out of my hand,
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we've got big problems,
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because we've become sort of so morphed with them.
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Well, there's a symbiotic relationship.
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And that's what Elon Musk, when you're a link,
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is working on trying to increase the bandwidth
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of communication between computers and your brain.
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And so further and further expand our ability,
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as human beings, to sort of leverage machines.
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And maybe that's the future, the next evolutionary step.
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It could be also that, yes, we'll give birth,
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just like we give birth to human children right now,
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we'll give birth to AI and they'll replace us.
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I think it's a really interesting possibility.
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I'm gonna play devil's advocate.
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I just think that the fear of robots is wildly classist
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because, I mean, Facebook.
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Like it's easy for us to say they're taking their data.
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Okay, a lot of people that get employment off of Facebook,
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they are able to get income off of Facebook.
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They don't care if you take their phone numbers
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and their emails and their data, as long as it's free.
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They don't wanna have to pay $5 a month for Facebook.
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Facebook is a wildly democratic thing.
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Forget about the election and all that kind of stuff.
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A lot of technology making people's lives easier,
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I find that most elite people are more scared
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than lower income people and women for the most part.
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So the idea of something that's stronger than us
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and that might eventually kill us, like women are used to that.
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Like that's not, I see a lot of like really rich men
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being like the robots are gonna kill us.
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We're like, what's another thing that's gonna kill us?
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I tend to see like, oh, something can walk me
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to my car at night.
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Like something can help me cook dinner or something.
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For people in underprivileged countries
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who can't afford eye surgery, like in a robot,
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can we send a robot to underprivileged places
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to do surgery where they can't?
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I work with this organization called Operation Smile
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where they do cleft palate surgeries.
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And there's a lot of places
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that can't do a very simple surgery
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because they can't afford doctors
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and medical care and such.
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So I just see, and this can be completely naive
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and should be completely wrong,
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but I feel like a lot of people are going like,
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the robots are gonna destroy us.
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Humans, we're destroying ourselves.
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We're self destructing.
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Robots to me are the only hope
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to clean up all the messes that we've created.
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Even when we go try to clean up pollution in the ocean,
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we make it worse because of the oil that the tankers,
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like it's like to me, robots are the only solution.
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Firefighters are heroes, but they're limited
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and how many times they can run into a fire.
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So there's just something interesting to me.
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I'm not hearing a lot of like lower income,
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more vulnerable populations talking about robots.
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Maybe you can speak to it a little bit more.
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There's an idea, I think you've expressed it.
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I've heard actually a few female writers
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and roboticists have talked to express this idea
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that exactly you just said,
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which is it just seems that being afraid
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of existential threats of artificial intelligence
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And I wonder what that is if it,
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because men have in certain positions,
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like you said, it's also a classist issue.
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They haven't been humbled by life.
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And so you're always look for the biggest problems
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to take on around you.
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It's a champagne problem to be afraid of robots.
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Most people don't have health insurance.
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They're afraid they're not gonna be able to feed their kids.
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They can't afford a tutor for their kids.
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I mean, I just think of the way I grew up
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and I had a mother who worked two jobs, had kids.
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We couldn't afford an SAT tutor.
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The idea of a robot coming in, being able to tutor your kids,
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being able to provide childcare for your kids,
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being able to come in with cameras for eyes
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and make sure surveillance, I'm very pro surveillance
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because I've had security problems
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and we're generally in a little more danger
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than you guys are.
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So I think that robots are a little less scared of us
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because we can see that maybe it's like
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free assistance, help and protection.
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And then there's sort of another element for me personally,
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which is maybe more of a female problem.
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I'm just gonna make a generalization.
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Happy to be wrong.
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But the emotional sort of component of robots
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and what they can provide in terms of,
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I think there's a lot of people that don't have microphones
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that I just recently kind of stumbled upon
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in doing all my research on the sex robots
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for my standup special,
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which is there's a lot of very shy people
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that aren't good at dating.
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There's a lot of people who are scared of human beings
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who have personality disorders
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or grew up in alcoholic homes or struggled with addiction
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or whatever it is where a robot can solve an emotional problem.
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And so we're largely having this conversation
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about like rich guys that are emotionally healthy
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and how scared a robot are.
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We're forgetting about like a huge part of the population
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who maybe isn't as charming and effervescent
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and solvent as people like you and Elon Musk
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who these robots could solve very real problems
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in their life, emotional or financial.
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Well, that's a in general really interesting idea
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that most people in the world don't have a voice.
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You've talked about it sort of even the people on Twitter
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who are driving the conversation.
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You said comments, people who leave comments
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represent a very tiny percent of the population
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and they're the ones they,
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we tend to think they speak for the population
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but it's very possible on many topics they don't at all.
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And look, I'm sure there's gotta be some kind of legal
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sort of structure in place for when the robots happen.
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You know way more about this than I do.
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But for me to just go, the robots are bad.
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That's a wild generalization
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that I feel like is really inhumane in some way.
link |
Just after the research I've done,
link |
like you're gonna tell me that a man whose wife died
link |
suddenly and he feels guilty moving on with a human woman
link |
or can't get over the grief.
link |
He can't have a sex robot in his own house.
link |
Well, there's an interesting aspect of human nature.
link |
So, you know, we tend to as a civilization
link |
to create a group that's the other in all kinds of ways.
link |
And so you work with animals to your,
link |
especially sensitive to the suffering of animals.
link |
Let me kind of ask, what's your,
link |
do you think will abuse robots in the future?
link |
Do you think some of the darker aspects
link |
of human nature will come out?
link |
I think some people will,
link |
but if we design them properly, the people that do it,
link |
we can put it on a record
link |
and we can put them in jail.
link |
We can find sociopaths more easily, you know?
link |
But why is that a sociopathic thing to harm a robot?
link |
I think, look, I don't know enough
link |
about the consciousness and stuff as you do.
link |
I guess it would have to be when they're conscious,
link |
but it is the part of the brain
link |
that is responsible for compassion,
link |
the frontal lobe or whatever.
link |
Like people that abuse animals also abuse humans
link |
and commit other kinds of crimes.
link |
Like that's, it's all the same part of the brain.
link |
No one abuses animals and then it's like,
link |
awesome to women and children
link |
and awesome to underprivileged, you know, minorities.
link |
Like it's all, so, you know,
link |
we've been working really hard to put a database together
link |
of all the people that have abused animals.
link |
So when they commit another crime, you go, okay,
link |
this is, you know, it's all the same stuff.
link |
And I think people probably think I'm nuts
link |
for the, a lot of the animal work I do,
link |
but because when animal abuse is present,
link |
another crime is always present,
link |
but the animal abuse is the most socially acceptable.
link |
You can kick a dog and there's nothing people can do,
link |
but then what they're doing behind closed doors,
link |
So there's always something else going on,
link |
which is why I never feel compunction about it.
link |
But I do think we'll start seeing the same thing
link |
with robots, the person that kicks the,
link |
I felt compassion when the kicking the dog robot
link |
really pissed me off.
link |
I know that they're just trying to get the stability right
link |
and all that, but I do think there will come a time
link |
where that will be a great way to be able to figure out
link |
if somebody has like, you know, anti social behaviors.
link |
You kind of mentioned surveillance.
link |
It's also a really interesting idea of yours
link |
that you just said, you know,
link |
a lot of people seem to be really uncomfortable
link |
with surveillance.
link |
And you just said that, you know what, for me,
link |
you know, they're positives for surveillance.
link |
I think people behave better
link |
when they know they're being watched.
link |
And I know this is a very unpopular opinion.
link |
I'm talking about it on stage right now.
link |
We behave better when we know we're being watched.
link |
You and I had a very different conversation
link |
before we were recording.
link |
If we behave different, you sit up,
link |
and you are in your best behavior,
link |
and I'm trying to sound eloquent,
link |
and I'm trying to not hurt anyone's feelings.
link |
And I mean, I have a camera right there.
link |
I'm behaving totally different
link |
than when we first started talking, you know?
link |
When you know there's a camera, you behave differently.
link |
I mean, there's cameras all over LA at stop lights
link |
so that people don't run stop lights,
link |
but there's not even film in it.
link |
They don't even use them anymore, but it works.
link |
And, you know, working on this thing
link |
in stand about surveillance,
link |
it's like, that's why we embed in Santa Claus.
link |
You know, it's the Santa Claus
link |
is the first surveillance, basically.
link |
All we had to say to kids is he's making a list
link |
and he's watching you, and they behave better.
link |
You know, so I do think that there are benefits
link |
You know, I think we all do sketchy things in private,
link |
and we all have watched weird porn
link |
or Googled weird things,
link |
and we don't want people to know about it,
link |
So I do think that obviously there's,
link |
we should be able to have a modicum of privacy,
link |
but I tend to think that people that are the most negative
link |
about surveillance are the most secret.
link |
The most the hype.
link |
is your saying you're doing bits on it now?
link |
Well, I'm just talking in general about,
link |
you know, privacy and surveillance
link |
and how paranoid we're kind of becoming
link |
and how, you know, I mean, it's just wild to me
link |
that people are like, our emails are gonna leak
link |
and they're taking our phone numbers.
link |
Like, there used to be a book
link |
full of phone numbers and addresses
link |
that they just throw it at your door.
link |
And we all had a book of everyone's numbers.
link |
You know, this is a very new thing.
link |
And, you know, I know our amygdala is designed
link |
to compound sort of threats and, you know,
link |
there's stories about, and I think we all just glom on
link |
in a very, you know, tribal way of, yeah,
link |
they're taking our data.
link |
Like, we don't even know that means,
link |
but we're like, well, yeah, they, they, you know.
link |
So I just think that someone's like, okay, well,
link |
so what, they're gonna sell your data?
link |
First of all, that bit will kill in China.
link |
So, and I said it as sort of only a little bit joking
link |
because a lot of people in China,
link |
including the citizens,
link |
despite what people in the West think of as abuse,
link |
are actually in support of the idea of surveillance.
link |
Sort of, they're not in support of the abuse of surveillance,
link |
but they're, they like, I mean, the idea of surveillance
link |
is kind of like the idea of government.
link |
Like you said, we behave differently.
link |
And in a way, it's almost like why we like sports.
link |
There's rules and within the constraints of the rules,
link |
this is a more stable society.
link |
And they make good arguments about success,
link |
being able to build successful companies,
link |
being able to build successful social lives
link |
around the fabric that's more stable.
link |
When you have a surveillance, it keeps the criminals away,
link |
it keeps abusive animals,
link |
whatever the values of the society with surveillance,
link |
you can enforce those values better.
link |
And here's what I will say.
link |
There's a lot of unethical things happening with surveillance.
link |
Like I feel the need to really make that very clear.
link |
I mean, the fact that Google is like collecting
link |
if people's hands start moving on the mouse
link |
to find out if they're getting Parkinson's
link |
and then their insurance goes up,
link |
like that is completely unethical and wrong.
link |
And I think stuff like that,
link |
we have to really be careful around.
link |
So the idea of using our data to raise our insurance rates
link |
or, you know, I heard that they're looking,
link |
they can sort of predict if you're gonna have depression
link |
based on your selfies by detecting micro muscles
link |
in your face, you know, all that kind of stuff.
link |
That is a nightmare, not okay.
link |
But I think, you know, we have to delineate
link |
what's a real threat and what's getting spam
link |
in your email box.
link |
That's not what to spend your time and energy on.
link |
Focus on the fact that every time you buy cigarettes,
link |
your insurance is going up without you knowing about it.
link |
On the topic of animals too,
link |
can we just linger on it a little bit?
link |
Like what do you think,
link |
what does it say about our society
link |
of the society wide abuse of animals
link |
that we see in general, sort of factory farming,
link |
just in general, just the way we treat animals
link |
of different categories?
link |
Like what, what do you think of that?
link |
What does a better world look like?
link |
What should people think about it in general?
link |
I think the most interesting thing I can probably say
link |
around this, that's the least emotional,
link |
because I'm actually a very non emotional animal person
link |
because it's, I think everyone's an animal person.
link |
It's just a matter of if it's yours
link |
or if you've, you know, been conditioned to go numb.
link |
You know, I think it's really a testament
link |
to what as a species we are able to be in denial about,
link |
mass denial and mass delusion
link |
and how we're able to dehumanize and debase groups,
link |
you know, World War II in a way in order to conform
link |
and find protection in the conforming.
link |
So we are also a species who used to go to coliseums
link |
and watch elephants and tigers fight to the death.
link |
We used to watch human beings be pulled apart
link |
in the, that wasn't that long ago.
link |
We're also a species who had slaves
link |
and it was socially acceptable by a lot of people.
link |
People didn't see anything wrong with it.
link |
So we're a species that is able to go numb
link |
and that is able to dehumanize very quickly
link |
and make it the norm.
link |
Child labor wasn't that long ago like the idea
link |
that now we look back and go, oh yeah, kids,
link |
we're losing fingers and factories making shoes.
link |
Like someone had to come in and make that, you know,
link |
so I think it just says a lot about the fact that, you know,
link |
we are animals and we are self serving
link |
and one of the most success, the most successful species
link |
because we are able to debase and degrade
link |
and essentially exploit anything that benefits us.
link |
I think the pendulums are gonna swing as being late.
link |
Like I think we're Rome now kind of like,
link |
I think we're on the verge of collapse
link |
because we are dopamine receptors.
link |
Like we are just, I think we're all kind of addicts
link |
when it comes to this stuff.
link |
Like we don't know when to stop.
link |
It's always the buffet.
link |
Like we're the thing that used to keep us alive
link |
which is killing animals and eating them.
link |
Now killing animals and eating them
link |
is what's killing us in a way.
link |
So it's like we just can't, we don't know when to call it
link |
and we don't moderation is not really something
link |
that humans have evolved to have yet.
link |
So I think it's really just a flaw in our wiring.
link |
Do you think we'll look back at this time
link |
as at our society is being deeply unethical?
link |
I think we'll be embarrassed.
link |
Which are the worst parts right now going on?
link |
In terms of animal, well, I think
link |
No, in terms of anything.
link |
What's the unethical thing?
link |
If we, and it's very hard to just take a step out of it
link |
but you just said we used to watch, you know,
link |
there's been a lot of cruelty throughout history.
link |
What's the cruelty going on now?
link |
I think it's going to be pigs.
link |
I think it's going to be, I mean, pigs are
link |
one of the most emotionally intelligent animals
link |
and they have the intelligence of like a three year old
link |
and I think we'll look back and be really,
link |
I mean, they're, I think we have this narrative
link |
that they're pigs and they're pigs
link |
and they're they're disgusting and they're dirty
link |
and they're bacon is so good.
link |
I think that we'll look back one day
link |
and be really embarrassed about that.
link |
Is this for just what's it called the factory farming?
link |
So basically mass.
link |
Because we don't see it.
link |
If you saw, I mean, we do have, I mean,
link |
this is probably an evolutionary advantage.
link |
We do have the ability to completely pretend something's not
link |
something that is so horrific that it overwhelms us
link |
and we're able to essentially deny that it's happening.
link |
I think if people were to see what goes on in factory farming
link |
and also we're really to take in how bad it is for us,
link |
you know, we're hurting ourselves first and foremost
link |
but that's also a very elitist argument, you know?
link |
It's a luxury to be able to complain about meat.
link |
It's a luxury to be able to not eat meat.
link |
You know, there's very few people because of, you know,
link |
how the corporations have set up meat being cheap.
link |
You know, it's $2 to buy a Big Mac.
link |
It's $10 to buy a healthy meal.
link |
You know, that's, I think a lot of people don't have
link |
the luxury to even think that way.
link |
But I do think that animals and captivity,
link |
I think we're going to look back
link |
and be pretty grossed out about mammals
link |
and captivity, whales, dolphins.
link |
I mean, that's already starting to dismantle circuses.
link |
We're going to be pretty embarrassed about,
link |
but I think it's really more a testament to, you know,
link |
there's just such a ability to go like,
link |
that thing is different than me and we're better.
link |
I mean, it's just, we have the species
link |
with the biggest ego ultimately.
link |
Well, that's what I think, that's my hope for robots
link |
is they'll, you mentioned consciousness before,
link |
nobody knows what consciousness is,
link |
but I'm hoping robots will help us empathize
link |
and understand that there's other creatures
link |
besides ourselves that can suffer,
link |
that can experience the world
link |
and that we can torture by our actions.
link |
And robots can explicitly teach us that,
link |
I think, better than animals can.
link |
I have never seen such compassion
link |
from a lot of people in my life
link |
toward any human, animal, child,
link |
as I have a lot of people in the way they interact
link |
Because I think there's,
link |
I think there's something of,
link |
I mean, I was on the robot owner's chat boards
link |
for a good eight months.
link |
And the main emotional benefit is,
link |
she's never going to cheat on you.
link |
She's never going to hurt you.
link |
She's never going to lie to you.
link |
She doesn't judge you.
link |
I think that robots help people,
link |
and this is part of the work I do with animals,
link |
like I do equine therapy and trained dogs and stuff,
link |
because there is this safe space to be authentic.
link |
You're with this being that doesn't care what you do
link |
for a living, doesn't care how much money you have,
link |
doesn't care who you're dating,
link |
doesn't care what you look like,
link |
doesn't care if you have cellulite, whatever,
link |
you feel safe to be able to truly be present
link |
without being defensive and worrying about eye contact
link |
and being triggered by needing to be perfect
link |
and fear of judgment and all that.
link |
And robots really can't judge you yet,
link |
but they can't judge you.
link |
And I think it really puts people at ease
link |
and at their most authentic.
link |
Do you think you can have a deep connection
link |
with the robot that's not judging or,
link |
do you think you can really have a relationship
link |
with a robot or a human being that's a safe space
link |
or is attention, mystery, danger necessary
link |
for a deep connection?
link |
I'm gonna speak for myself and say that
link |
I grew up in an alcohol calm.
link |
I identify as a codependent, talked about this stuff before,
link |
but for me, it's very hard to be in a relationship
link |
with a human being without feeling like I need to perform
link |
in some way or deliver in some way.
link |
And I don't know if that's just the people
link |
I've been in a relationship with or me or my brokenness,
link |
but I do think this is gonna sound
link |
really negative and pessimistic,
link |
but I do think a lot of our relationships are projection
link |
and a lot of our relationships are performance.
link |
And I don't think I really understood that
link |
until I worked with horses.
link |
And most communications with human is nonverbal, right?
link |
I can say like, I love you,
link |
but you don't think I love you, right?
link |
Whereas with animals, it's very direct.
link |
It's all physical, it's all energy.
link |
I feel like that with robots too.
link |
how I say something doesn't matter.
link |
My inflection doesn't really matter.
link |
And you thinking that my tone is disrespectful,
link |
like you're not filtering it through all
link |
of the bad relationships you've been in.
link |
You're not filtering it through the way your mom talked to you.
link |
You're not getting triggered.
link |
I find that for the most part,
link |
people don't always receive things the way
link |
that you intend them to or the way intended,
link |
and that makes relationships really murky.
link |
So the relationships with animals
link |
and relationships with the robots as they are now,
link |
you kind of imply that that's more healthy.
link |
Can you have a healthy relationship with other humans?
link |
Or not healthy, I don't like that word,
link |
but shouldn't it be, you've talked about codependency.
link |
Maybe you can talk about what is codependency,
link |
but is that, is the challenges of that,
link |
the complexity of that necessary for passion,
link |
for love between humans?
link |
That's right, you love passion.
link |
That's a good thing.
link |
I thought this would be a safe space.
link |
I got trolled by Rogan for hours on this.
link |
Look, I am not anti passion.
link |
I think that I've just maybe been around long enough
link |
to know that sometimes it's ephemeral
link |
and that passion is a mixture of a lot of different things.
link |
Adrenaline, which turns into dopamine,
link |
cortisol, it's a lot of neurochemicals.
link |
It's a lot of projection.
link |
It's a lot of what we've seen in movies.
link |
It's a lot of, you know, it's identified as an addict.
link |
So for me, sometimes passion is like,
link |
uh oh, this could be bad.
link |
And I think we've been so conditioned to believe
link |
that passion means like your soulmates.
link |
And I mean, how many times have you had
link |
a passionate connection with someone
link |
and then it was a total train wreck?
link |
It's a train wreck.
link |
How many times exactly?
link |
What's a train wreck?
link |
You just did a lot of math in your head
link |
in that little moment.
link |
I mean, what's a train wreck?
link |
What's, why is obsession,
link |
so you describe this codependency
link |
and sort of the idea of attachment over attachment
link |
to people who don't deserve that kind of attachment
link |
as somehow a bad thing.
link |
And I think our society says it's a bad thing.
link |
It probably is a bad thing.
link |
Like a delicious burger is a bad thing.
link |
Right. Oh, that's a good point.
link |
I think that you're pointing out
link |
something really fascinating, which is like passion,
link |
if you go into it knowing this is like pizza
link |
where it's going to be delicious for two hours
link |
and then I don't have to have it again for three.
link |
If you can have a choice in the passion,
link |
I define passion as something that is relatively unmanageable
link |
and something you can't control or stop and start
link |
with your own volition.
link |
So maybe we're operating under different definitions.
link |
If passion is something that ruins your marriages
link |
and screws up your professional life
link |
and becomes this thing that you're not in control of
link |
and becomes addictive, I think that's the difference.
link |
Is it a choice or is it not a choice?
link |
And if it is a choice, then passion's great.
link |
But if it's something that consumes you
link |
and makes you start making bad decisions
link |
and clouds your frontal lobe
link |
and is just all about dopamine
link |
and not really about the person
link |
and more about the neurochemical,
link |
we call it sort of the internal drug cabinet.
link |
If it's all just you're on drugs, that's different,
link |
because sometimes you're just on drugs.
link |
Okay, so there's a philosophical question here.
link |
So would you rather, and it's interesting for a comedian,
link |
brilliant comedian to speak so eloquently
link |
about a balanced life.
link |
I kind of argue against this point.
link |
There's such an obsession of creating
link |
this healthy lifestyle now, psychologically speaking.
link |
You know, I'm a fan of the idea that you sort of fly high
link |
and you crash and die at 27 as also a possible life.
link |
And it's not one we should judge
link |
because I think there's moments of greatness.
link |
I talked to Olympic athletes
link |
where some of their greatest moments
link |
are achieved in the early 20s.
link |
And the rest of their life is in the kind of fog
link |
of almost of a depression.
link |
Because they're based on their physical prowess, right?
link |
Physical prowess, and they'll never sort of that.
link |
So they're watching their physical prowess fade
link |
and they'll never achieve the kind of height,
link |
not just physical, of just emotion, of...
link |
The max number of neurochemicals.
link |
And you also put your money on the wrong horse.
link |
That's where I would just go like,
link |
oh yeah, if you're doing a job where you peak at 22,
link |
the rest of your life is going to be hard.
link |
That idea is considering the notion
link |
that you want to optimize some kind of,
link |
but we're all going to die soon.
link |
I have immortalized myself, so I'm going to be fine.
link |
See, you're almost like,
link |
how many Oscar winning movies can I direct
link |
by the time I'm 100?
link |
How many this and that?
link |
But it's all, life is short, relatively speaking.
link |
I know, but it can also come a different way.
link |
You go, life is short, play hard,
link |
fall in love as much as you can, run into walls.
link |
I would also go, life is short.
link |
Don't deplete yourself on things that aren't sustainable
link |
and that you can't keep.
link |
So I think everyone gets dopamine from different places.
link |
Everyone has meaning from different places.
link |
I look at the fleeting, passionate relationships
link |
I've had in the past and I don't have pride in them.
link |
I think that you have to decide
link |
what helps you sleep at night.
link |
For me, it's pride and feeling like I behave
link |
with grace and integrity.
link |
That's just me personally.
link |
Everyone can go like, yeah,
link |
slept with all the hot chicks in Italy I could
link |
and I did all the whatever you value.
link |
We're allowed to value different things.
link |
We're talking about Brian Callan.
link |
Brian Callan has lived his life to the fullest,
link |
but I think that it's just for me personally,
link |
I, and this could be like my workaholism
link |
or my achievementism.
link |
If I don't have something to show for something,
link |
I feel like it's a waste of time or some kind of loss.
link |
I'm in a 12 step program and the third step would say
link |
there's no such thing as waste of time
link |
and everything happens exactly as it should
link |
and whatever, that's a way to just sort of keep us sane
link |
so we don't grieve too much and beat ourselves up
link |
over past mistakes.
link |
There's no such thing as mistakes, da, da, da.
link |
But I think passion is,
link |
I think it's so life affirming and one of the few things
link |
that maybe people like us makes us feel awakened and seen
link |
and we just have such a high threshold for adrenaline.
link |
You know, I mean, you are a fighter, right?
link |
Yeah, okay, so yeah,
link |
so you have a very high tolerance for adrenaline.
link |
And I think that Olympic athletes,
link |
the amount of adrenaline they get from performing,
link |
it's very hard to follow that.
link |
It's like when guys come back from the military
link |
and they have depression,
link |
it's like, do you miss bullets flying at you?
link |
Kind of, because of that adrenaline
link |
which turned into dopamine and the camaraderie.
link |
I mean, there's people that speak much better
link |
about this than I do, but I just,
link |
I'm obsessed with neurology and I'm just obsessed
link |
with sort of the lies we tell ourselves
link |
in order to justify getting neurochemicals.
link |
You've done actually quite,
link |
done a lot of thinking and talking about neurology
link |
and just kind of look at human behavior
link |
through the lens of looking at how
link |
are actually chemically our brain works.
link |
So what, first of all, why did you connect with that idea
link |
and what have you, how has your view of the world changed
link |
by considering the brain is just a machine?
link |
You know, I know it probably sounds really nihilistic,
link |
but for me, it's very liberating
link |
to know a lot about neurochemicals
link |
because you don't have to,
link |
it's like the same thing with like,
link |
like critics, like critical reviews.
link |
If you believe the good,
link |
you have to believe the bad kind of thing.
link |
Like, you know, if you believe that your bad choices
link |
were because of your moral integrity
link |
or whatever, you have to believe your good ones.
link |
I just think there's something really liberating
link |
and going like, oh, that was just adrenaline.
link |
I just said that thing
link |
because I was adrenalized and I was scared
link |
and my amygdala was activated
link |
and that's why I said you're an asshole and get out.
link |
And that's, you know, I think,
link |
I just think it's important to delineate what's nature
link |
and what's nurture, what is your choice
link |
and what is just your brain trying to keep you safe.
link |
I think we forget that even though we have security systems
link |
and homes and locks on our doors,
link |
that our brain for the most part
link |
is just trying to keep us safe all the time.
link |
It's why we hold grudges, it's why we get angry,
link |
it's why we get road rage,
link |
it's why we do a lot of things.
link |
And it's also, when I started learning about neurology,
link |
I started having so much more compassion for other people.
link |
You know, if someone yelled at me,
link |
being like, fuck you on the road,
link |
I'd be like, okay, he's producing adrenaline right now
link |
because we're all going 65 miles an hour
link |
and our brains aren't really designed
link |
for this type of stress and he's scared.
link |
He was scared, you know,
link |
so that really helped me to have more love for people
link |
in my everyday life instead of being in fight or flight mode.
link |
But the, I think more interesting answer to your question
link |
is that I've had migraines my whole life,
link |
like I've suffered with really intense migraines,
link |
ocular migraines, ones where my arm would go numb
link |
and I just started having to go to so many doctors
link |
to learn about it.
link |
And I started, you know, learning that
link |
we don't really know that much, we know a lot,
link |
but it's wild to go into one of the best neurologists
link |
in the world who's like, yeah, we don't know.
link |
And that fascinated me.
link |
Except one of the worst pains,
link |
you can probably have all that stuff.
link |
And we don't know the source.
link |
We don't know the source.
link |
And there is something really fascinating about
link |
when your left arm starts going numb
link |
and you start not being able to see
link |
out of the left side of both your eyes.
link |
And I remember when the migraines get really bad,
link |
it's like a mini stroke almost,
link |
and you're able to see words on a page,
link |
but I can't read them.
link |
They just look like symbols to me.
link |
So there's something just really fascinating to me
link |
about your brain just being able to stop functioning.
link |
And so I just wanted to learn about it, study about it.
link |
I did all these weird alternative treatments.
link |
I got this piercing in here that actually works.
link |
I've tried everything.
link |
And then both of my parents had strokes.
link |
So when both of my parents had strokes,
link |
I became sort of the person who had to decide
link |
what was gonna happen with their recovery,
link |
which is just a wild thing to have to deal with it.
link |
28 years old when it happened.
link |
And I started spending basically all day every day
link |
in ICU's with neurologists learning
link |
about what happened to my dad's brain
link |
and why he can't move his left arm,
link |
but he can move his right leg,
link |
but he can't see out of the,
link |
and then my mom had another stroke
link |
in a different part of the brain.
link |
So I started having to learn
link |
what parts of the brain did what
link |
and so that I wouldn't take their behavior so personally.
link |
And so that I would be able to manage my expectations
link |
in terms of their recovery.
link |
So my mom, because it affected a lot of her frontal lobe,
link |
changed a lot as a person.
link |
She was way more emotional.
link |
She was way more micromanaged.
link |
She was forgetting certain things.
link |
So it broke my heart less when I was able to know,
link |
oh yeah, we'll just stroke hit this part of the brain.
link |
And that's the one that's responsible for short term memory.
link |
And that's responsible for long term memory, da, da, da.
link |
And then my brother just got something called viral
link |
encephalitis, which is an infection inside the brain.
link |
So it was kind of wild that I was able to go,
link |
oh, I know exactly what's happening here.
link |
And I know, you know, so.
link |
So that's allows you to have some more compassion
link |
for the struggles that people have.
link |
But does it take away some of the magic
link |
for some of the, from the,
link |
some of the more positive experiences of life?
link |
Sometimes, and I don't, I don't,
link |
I'm such a control addict that, you know,
link |
I think our biggest, someone like me,
link |
my biggest dream is to know why someone's doing it.
link |
That's what stand up is.
link |
It's just trying to figure out why,
link |
or that's what writing is.
link |
That's what acting is.
link |
That's what performing is.
link |
It's trying to figure out why someone would do something.
link |
As an actor, you get a piece of, you know, material
link |
and you go, this person, why would he say that?
link |
Why would she pick up that cup?
link |
Why would she walk over here?
link |
It's really why, why, why, why?
link |
So I think neurology is, if you're trying to figure out
link |
human motives and why people do what they do,
link |
it'd be crazy not to understand
link |
how neurochemicals motivate us.
link |
I also have a lot of addiction in my family
link |
and hardcore drug addiction and mental illness.
link |
And in order to cope with it,
link |
you really have to understand it,
link |
borderline personality disorder, schizophrenia
link |
and drug addiction.
link |
So I have a lot of people I love
link |
that suffer from drug addiction and alcoholism.
link |
And the first thing they started teaching you
link |
is it's not a choice.
link |
These people's dopamine receptors
link |
don't hold dopamine the same ways yours do.
link |
Their frontal lobe is underdeveloped, like, you know,
link |
and that really helped me to navigate dealing,
link |
loving people that were addicted to substances.
link |
I want to be careful with this question,
link |
Money do you have?
link |
Can I borrow 10 dollars?
link |
No, is how much control,
link |
how much despite the chemical imbalances
link |
or the biological limitations
link |
that each of our individual brains have,
link |
how much mind over matter is there?
link |
So through things that I've known people
link |
with clinical depression.
link |
And so it's always a touchy subject
link |
to say how much they can really help it.
link |
What can you, yeah, what can you,
link |
because you've talked about codependency,
link |
you've talked about issues that you're struggled through.
link |
And nevertheless, you choose to take a journey
link |
of healing and so on.
link |
So that's your choice, that's your actions.
link |
So how much can you do to help fight
link |
the limitations of the neurochemicals in your brain?
link |
That's such an interesting question.
link |
And I don't think I'm at all qualified to answer,
link |
but I'll say what I do know.
link |
And really quick, just the definition of codependency,
link |
I think a lot of people think of codependency
link |
as like two people that can't stop hanging out,
link |
you know, or like, you know, that's not totally off,
link |
but I think for the most part,
link |
my favorite definition of codependency
link |
is the inability to tolerate the discomfort of others.
link |
You grow up in an alcoholic home,
link |
you grow up around mental illness,
link |
you grow up in chaos,
link |
you have a parent that's a narcissist,
link |
you basically are wired to just people,
link |
please worry about others, be perfect,
link |
walk on eggshells, shapeshift to accommodate other people.
link |
So codependence is a very active wiring issue
link |
that, you know, doesn't just affect your romantic
link |
relationships, it affects you being a boss,
link |
it affects you in the world.
link |
Online, you know, you get one negative comment
link |
and it throws you for two weeks.
link |
You know, it also is linked to eating disorders
link |
and other kinds of addiction.
link |
So it's a very big thing.
link |
And I think a lot of people sometimes only think
link |
that it's in romantic relationships,
link |
so I always feel the need to say that.
link |
And also one of the reasons,
link |
I love the idea of robots so much
link |
because you don't have to walk on eggshells around them,
link |
you don't have to worry, they're gonna get mad at you yet,
link |
but there's no, codependence are hypersensitive
link |
to the needs and moods of others.
link |
And it's very exhausting, it's depleting.
link |
Just one conversation about where we're gonna go to dinner
link |
is like, do you wanna go get Chinese food?
link |
We just had Chinese food.
link |
Well, wait, are you mad?
link |
Well, no, I didn't mean to.
link |
And it's just like, that codependence live in this,
link |
everything means something
link |
and humans can be very emotionally exhausting.
link |
Why did you look at me that way?
link |
What are you thinking about?
link |
Why did you take your phone?
link |
It's just, it's a hypersensitivity
link |
that can be incredibly time consuming,
link |
which is why I love the idea of robots just subbing in.
link |
Even, I've had a hard time running TV shows and stuff
link |
because even asking someone to do something,
link |
I don't wanna come off like a bitch.
link |
I'm very concerned about what other people think of me,
link |
how I'm perceived, which is why I think robots
link |
will be very beneficial for codependence.
link |
By the way, just the real quick tangent,
link |
that skill or flaw, whatever you wanna call it,
link |
is actually really useful for,
link |
if you ever do start your own podcast for interviewing
link |
because you're now kind of obsessed
link |
about the mindset of others.
link |
And it makes you a good sort of listener and talker with.
link |
So I think, what's her name from NPR?
link |
Terry Gross talked about having that.
link |
I don't feel like she has that at all.
link |
She worries about other people's feelings.
link |
Oh, I don't get that at all.
link |
I mean, you have to put yourself in the mind
link |
of the person you're speaking with.
link |
Yes, oh, I see, just in terms of, yeah,
link |
I am starting a podcast and the reason I haven't
link |
is because I'm codependent and I'm too worried
link |
that it's not gonna be perfect.
link |
So a big codependent adage is perfectionism
link |
leads to procrastination, which leads to paralysis.
link |
So how do you, sorry to take a million tangents,
link |
how do you survive in social media?
link |
Because you're exceptionally active.
link |
But by the way, I took you on a tangent
link |
and didn't answer your last question
link |
about how much we can control.
link |
How much, yeah, we'll return it or maybe not.
link |
The answer is we can't.
link |
Now as a codependent, I'm worried, okay, go ahead.
link |
We can, but one of the things that I'm fascinated by
link |
is the first thing you learn when you go
link |
into 12 step programs or addiction recovery or any of this
link |
is genetics loads the gun, environment pulls the trigger.
link |
And there's certain parts of your genetics
link |
you cannot control.
link |
I come from a lot of alcoholism.
link |
I come from a lot of mental illness.
link |
There's certain things I cannot control
link |
and a lot of things that maybe we don't even know yet
link |
what we can and can't
link |
because of how little we actually know about the brain.
link |
But we also talk about the warrior spirit.
link |
And there are some people that have that warrior spirit
link |
and we don't necessarily know what that engine is.
link |
Whether it's you get dopamine from succeeding
link |
or achieving or martyring yourself
link |
or that tension you get from growing.
link |
So a lot of people are like,
link |
oh, this person can edify themselves and overcome.
link |
But if you're getting attention from improving yourself,
link |
you're gonna keep wanting to do that.
link |
So that is something that helps a lot of
link |
in terms of changing your brain.
link |
So you talk about changing your brain to people
link |
and talk about what you're doing to overcome set obstacles.
link |
You're gonna get more attention from them
link |
which is gonna fire off your reward system
link |
and then you're gonna keep doing it.
link |
Yeah, so you can leverage that momentum.
link |
So this is why in any 12 step program,
link |
you go into a room and you talk about your progress
link |
because then everyone claps for you.
link |
And then you're more motivated to keep going.
link |
So that's why we say you're only as sick
link |
as the secrets you keep.
link |
Because if you keep things secret,
link |
there's no one guiding you to go in a certain direction.
link |
It's based on, right?
link |
We're sort of designed to get approval from the tribe
link |
or from a group of people
link |
because our brain, you know, translates it to safety.
link |
And in that case, the tribe is a positive one
link |
that helps you go the positive direction.
link |
So that's why it's so important to go into a room
link |
and also say, hey, I wanted to use drugs today
link |
and people go, hmm, they go, me too.
link |
And you feel less alone
link |
and you feel less like you're, you know,
link |
have been castigated from the pack or whatever.
link |
And then you say, and I do haven't,
link |
you get a chip when you haven't drank for 30 days
link |
or 60 days or whatever, you get little rewards.
link |
So talking about a pack that's not at all healthy or good,
link |
but in fact is often toxic, social media.
link |
So you're one of my favorite people on Twitter
link |
and Instagram to sort of just both the comedy
link |
and the insight and just fun.
link |
How do you prevent social media
link |
from destroying your mental health?
link |
It's the next big epidemic, isn't it?
link |
I don't think I have.
link |
I don't, I don't think.
link |
Is moderation the answer?
link |
Maybe, but you can do a lot of damage in a moderate way.
link |
I mean, I guess, again, it depends on your goals, you know?
link |
And, and I think for me,
link |
the way that my addiction to social media,
link |
I'm happy to call it an addiction.
link |
I mean, and I define it as an addiction
link |
because it stops being a choice.
link |
There are times I just reach over and I'm like, that was.
link |
Yeah, that was weird.
link |
I'll be driving sometimes.
link |
I'll be like, oh my God,
link |
my arm just went to my phone, you know?
link |
I can put it down.
link |
I can't take time away from it.
link |
But when I do, I get antsy.
link |
I get restless, irritable and discontent.
link |
I mean, that's kind of the definition, isn't it?
link |
So I think by no means,
link |
do I have a healthy relationship with social media?
link |
I'm sure there's a way to,
link |
but I think I'm especially a weirdo in this space
link |
because it's easy to conflate is this work, is this?
link |
I can always say that it's for work, you know?
link |
But I mean, don't you get the same kind of thing
link |
as you get from when a room full of people laugh at your jokes?
link |
Because, I mean, I see, especially the way you do Twitter,
link |
it's an extension of your comedy in a way.
link |
I took a big break from Twitter though, a really big break.
link |
I took like six months off or something for a while
link |
because it was just like,
link |
it seemed like it was all kind of politics
link |
and it was just a little bit,
link |
it wasn't giving me dopamine
link |
because there was like this weird, a lot of feedback.
link |
So I had to take a break from it and then go back to it
link |
because I felt like I didn't have a healthy relationship.
link |
Have you ever tried the, I don't know if I believe him,
link |
but Joe Rogan seems to not read comments.
link |
Have you, and he's one of the only people at the scale,
link |
like at your level who at least claims not to read.
link |
So like, because you and him swim in this space
link |
of tense ideas that get the toxic folks riled up.
link |
I think Rogan, I don't, I don't know, I don't,
link |
I think he probably looks at YouTube, like the likes and
link |
that, you know, I think if some things, if he doesn't know,
link |
I don't know, I'm sure he would tell the truth, you know?
link |
I'm sure he's got people that look at them
link |
and is like disgusted, great, or they don't, you know,
link |
like I'm sure he gets it, you know,
link |
I can't picture him like in the weeds on.
link |
I mean, he's honestly actually saying that.
link |
I just, it's, it's a, it's admirable.
link |
We're addicted to feedback.
link |
Yeah, we're addicted to feedback.
link |
I mean, you know, look, like I think that our brain
link |
is designed to get intel on how we're perceived
link |
so that we know where we stand, right?
link |
That's our whole deal, right?
link |
As humans, we want to know where we stand.
link |
We walk into a room and we go,
link |
who's the most powerful person in here?
link |
I got to talk to them and get in their good graces.
link |
It's just, we're designed to rank ourselves, right?
link |
And constantly know our rank and social media
link |
because of, you can't figure out your rank
link |
with 500 million people, you get it's possible, you know?
link |
So our brain is like, what's my rank?
link |
And especially for following people.
link |
I think the big, the, the interesting thing I think
link |
I may be able to say about this
link |
besides my speech impediment is that
link |
I did start muting people that rank wildly higher than me
link |
because it is just stressful on the brain
link |
to constantly look at people that are,
link |
that are incredibly successful.
link |
So you keep feeling bad about yourself, you know?
link |
I think that that is like cutting to a certain extent.
link |
Just like, look at me looking at all these people
link |
that have so much more money than me
link |
and so much more success than me.
link |
It's making me feel like a failure,
link |
even though I don't think I'm a failure,
link |
but it's easy to frame it so that I can feel that way.
link |
Yeah, that's really interesting.
link |
Especially if they're close to,
link |
like if there are other comedians or something like that
link |
or whatever, that's really disappointing to me.
link |
I do the same thing as well.
link |
So other successful people that are really close
link |
to what I do, it, I don't know.
link |
I wish I could just admire.
link |
And for it not to be a distraction, but...
link |
But that's why you are where you are
link |
because you don't just admire your competitive
link |
and you want to win.
link |
So it's also the same thing that bums you out
link |
when you look at this as the same reason you are
link |
So that's why I think it's so important to learn
link |
about neurology and addiction
link |
because you're able to go like,
link |
oh, this same instinct, so I'm very sensitive.
link |
And I sometimes don't like that about myself,
link |
but I'm like, well, that's the reason I'm able to
link |
write good standup.
link |
And that's the reason,
link |
and that's the reason I'm able to be sensitive to feedback
link |
and go, that joke should have been better.
link |
I can make that better.
link |
So it's the kind of thing where it's like,
link |
you have to be really sensitive in your work.
link |
And the second you leave,
link |
you got to be able to turn it off.
link |
It's about developing the muscle,
link |
being able to know when to let it be a superpower
link |
and when it's gonna hold you back and be an obstacle.
link |
So I try to not be in that black and white of like,
link |
you know, being competitive is bad
link |
or being jealous of someone just to go like,
link |
oh, there's that thing that makes me really successful
link |
in a lot of other ways,
link |
but right now it's making me feel bad.
link |
Well, I'm kind of looking to you
link |
because you're basically a celebrity,
link |
a famous sort of world class comedian.
link |
And so I feel like you're the right person
link |
to be one of the key people to define
link |
what's the healthy path forward with social media.
link |
Because we're all trying to figure it out now.
link |
And it's, I'm curious to see where it evolves.
link |
I think you're at the center of that.
link |
So like, you know, there's trying to leave Twitter
link |
and then come back and see,
link |
can I do this in a healthy way?
link |
You mean you have to keep trying, exploring and thinking about.
link |
I have to know because it's being, you know,
link |
I have a couple of answers.
link |
I think, you know, I hire a company
link |
to do some of my social media for me, you know?
link |
So it's also being able to go,
link |
okay, I make a certain amount of money by doing this,
link |
but now let me be a good business person
link |
and say I'm gonna pay you this amount to run this for me.
link |
So I'm not 24 seven in the weeds,
link |
hashtagging and responding and just, it's a lot to take on.
link |
It's a lot of energy to take on,
link |
but at the same time part of what I think makes me successful
link |
in social media, if I am,
link |
is that people know I'm actually doing it
link |
and that I am an engaging and I'm responding
link |
and developing a personal relationship
link |
with complete strangers.
link |
So I think, you know, figuring out that balance
link |
and really approaching it as a business, you know,
link |
that's what I try to do.
link |
It's not, I try to just be really objective about,
link |
okay, here's what's working, here's what's not working.
link |
And in terms of taking the break from Twitter,
link |
this is a really savage take,
link |
but because I don't talk about my politics publicly,
link |
being on Twitter right after the last election
link |
was not gonna be beneficial
link |
because there was gonna be, you had to take a side.
link |
You had to be political
link |
in order to get any kind of retweets or likes.
link |
And I just wasn't interested in doing that
link |
because you were gonna lose as many people
link |
as you were gonna gain
link |
and it was gonna all come clean in the wash.
link |
So I was just like the best thing I can do
link |
for me business wise is to just abstain, you know?
link |
And, you know, the robot,
link |
I joke about her replacing me,
link |
but she does do half of my social media, you know?
link |
Because I don't want people to get sick of me.
link |
I don't want to be redundant.
link |
There are times when I don't have the time or the energy
link |
to make a funny video,
link |
but I know she's gonna be compelling and interesting
link |
and that's something that you can't see every day, you know?
link |
Of course the humor comes from your,
link |
I mean, the cleverness, the wit,
link |
the humor comes from you when you film the robot.
link |
That's kind of the trick of it.
link |
I mean, the robot is not quite there
link |
to make anything, to do anything funny.
link |
The absurdity is revealed through the filmmaker,
link |
in that case, for whoever's interacting,
link |
not through the actual robot, you know, being who she is.
link |
Let me sort of love.
link |
Well, first, an engineering question.
link |
I know, I know you're not an engineer,
link |
but how difficult do you think is it to build
link |
an AI system that you can have a deep,
link |
fulfilling monogamous relationship with?
link |
Sort of replace the human to human relationships
link |
I think anyone can fall in love with anything, you know?
link |
Like, how often have you looked back at someone,
link |
like I ran into someone the other day
link |
that I was in love with and I was like,
link |
hey, it was like, there was nothing there.
link |
There was nothing there.
link |
Like, you know, like where you're able to go like,
link |
oh, that was weird.
link |
You mean it's from a distant past or something?
link |
When you're able to go like,
link |
I can't believe we had an incredible connection
link |
and now it's just, I do think that people will be in love
link |
with robots probably even more deeply with humans
link |
because it's like when people mourn their animals,
link |
when their animals die, they're always,
link |
it's sometimes harder than mourning a human
link |
because you can't go, well, he was kind of an asshole.
link |
But like, he didn't pick me up from school.
link |
You know, it's like you're able to get out of your grief
link |
You're able to kind of be, oh, he was kind of judgmental
link |
or she was kind of, you know, with a robot,
link |
it's there's something so pure about an innocent
link |
impish and childlike about it
link |
that I think it probably will be much more conducive
link |
to a narcissistic love for sure at that.
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But it's not like, well, he cheated on it.
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She can't leave you.
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She can't, you know.
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Well, if bear claw leaves your life
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and maybe a new version or somebody else will enter,
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will you miss bear claw?
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For guys that have these sex robots,
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they're building a nursing home for the bodies
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that are now resting
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because they don't want to part with the bodies
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because they have such an intense emotional connection to it.
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I mean, it's kind of like a car club a little bit.
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You know, like it's, you know,
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but I'm not saying this is right.
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I'm not saying it's cool.
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It's creepy, but we do anthropomorphize things with faces
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and we do develop emotional connections to things.
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I mean, we're, there's certain,
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have you ever tried to like throw it?
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I can't even throw away my teddy bear from when I was a kid.
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It's a piece of trash and it's upstairs.
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Like it's just like, why can't I throw that away?
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You know, and there's something kind of beautiful about that.
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There's something, it gives me hope in humans
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because I see humans do such horrific things all the time.
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And maybe I'm too, I see too much of it, frankly,
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but there's something kind of beautiful
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about the way we're able to have emotional connections
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to objects, which, you know, a lot of,
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I mean, it's, I can't kind of specifically,
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I think Western, right?
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That we don't see objects as having souls.
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Like that's kind of specifically us,
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but I don't think it's so much
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that we're objectifying humans with these sex robots.
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We're kind of humanizing objects, right?
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So there's something kind of fascinating
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in our ability to do that.
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Cause a lot of us don't humanize humans.
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So it's just a weird little place to play in.
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And I think a lot of people, I mean,
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a lot of people will be marrying these things is my guess.
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So you've asked the question, let me ask it of you.
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You have a bit of a brilliant definition of love
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as being willing to die for someone
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who you yourself want to kill.
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So that's, that's kind of fun.
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First of all, that's brilliant.
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That's a really good definition.
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I don't think it'll stick for me for a long time.
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This is how little of a romantic I am.
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A plane went by when you said that
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and my brain is like, you're going to need to rerecord that.
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And I want you to get into post
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and then not be able to use it.
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And I'm a romantic.
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Cause I don't mean to ruin the moment.
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I actually, I can not be conscious of the fact
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that I heard the plane and it made me feel like
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how amazing it is that we live in a world of planes.
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And I just went, why have we fucking evolved past planes?
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And why can't they make them quieter?
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Well, this, um, my definition of love, what, what?
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Yeah, what's your sort of the most serious?
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Producing dopamine for a long time.
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Consistent output of oxytocin with the same person.
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Dopamine is a positive thing.
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What about the negative?
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What about the fear and the insecurity, the longing?
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Anger, all that kind of stuff.
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I think that's part of love, you know, I think you don't,
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I think that love brings out the best in you,
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but it also, if you don't get angry and upset, it's, you know,
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I don't know, I think that that's, that's part of it.
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I think we have this idea that love has to be like really,
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you know, placid or something.
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I only saw stormy relationships growing up,
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so I don't, I don't have a judgment
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on how our relationship should look.
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But I do think that this idea that love has to be eternal
link |
is really destructive, is really destructive
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and self defeating and a big source of stress for people.
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I mean, I'm still figuring out love.
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I think we all kind of are,
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but I do kind of stand by that definition.
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And I think that, I think for me, love is like
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just being able to be authentic with somebody.
link |
It's very simple, I know, but I think for me,
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it's about not feeling pressure to have to perform
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or impress somebody, just feeling truly like
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accepted unconditionally by someone.
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Although I do believe love should be conditional,
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that might be a hot take.
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I think everything should be conditional.
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I think if someone's behavior,
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I don't think love should just be like,
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I'm in love with you,
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now behave however you want forever.
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This is unconditional.
link |
I think love is a daily action.
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It's not something you just like get tenure on
link |
and then get to behave however you want.
link |
Cause we said, I love you 10 years ago.
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It's a daily, it's a verb.
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Well, there's some things that are,
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you see, if you make it,
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if you explicitly make it clear that it's conditional,
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it takes away some of the magic of it.
link |
So there's certain stories we tell ourselves
link |
that we don't want to make explicit about love.
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I don't know, maybe that's the wrong way to think of it.
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Maybe you want to be explicit in relationships.
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I also think love is a business decision.
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Like I do in a good way.
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Like I think that love is not just
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when you're across from somebody.
link |
It's when I go to work, can I focus?
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Do I, am I worried about you?
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Am I stressed out about you?
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Am I, you're not responding to me.
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You're not reliable.
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Like I think that being in a relationship,
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the kind of love that I would want
link |
is the kind of relationship where when we're not together,
link |
it's not draining me, causing me stress, making me worry.
link |
You know, and sometimes passion, that word, you know,
link |
we get murky about it, but I think it's also like,
link |
I can be the best version of myself
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when the person's not around.
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And I don't have to feel abandoned or scared
link |
or any of these kind of other things.
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So it's like love, you know, for me, I think is,
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I think it's a flow bear quote.
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And I'm gonna butcher it, but I think it's like be,
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you know, boring in your personal life.
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So you could be violent and take risks
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in your professional life.
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Something like that.
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But I do think that it's being able to align values
link |
in a way to where you can also thrive
link |
outside of the relationship.
link |
Some of the most successful people I know are
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those sort of happily married and have kids and so on.
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It's always funny.
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Boring is serenity.
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And it's funny how that, those elements
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actually make you much more productive.
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I don't understand the...
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I don't think relationships should drain you
link |
and take away energy that you could be using
link |
to create things that generate pride.
link |
Did you say your relationship of love yet?
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Have you said your relationship,
link |
your definition of love?
link |
My definition of love?
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No, I did not say it.
link |
We're out of time.
link |
Dude, when you have a podcast,
link |
maybe you can invite me on.
link |
Oh no, I already did.
link |
We've already talked about this.
link |
And because I also have codependency,
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Yeah, no, no, I'm trapping you.
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Actually, I wondered whether when I asked
link |
if we could talk today,
link |
after sort of doing more research
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and reading some of your book,
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I started to wonder,
link |
did she just feel pressured to say yes?
link |
But I'm a fan of yours too.
link |
No, I actually, because I am codependent,
link |
but I'm in recovery for codependence.
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So I actually do, I don't do anything I don't want to do.
link |
You really, you go out of your way and say no.
link |
I say no all the time.
link |
I'm trying to learn that as well.
link |
I moved this a couple, remember?
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I moved it from one to two.
link |
Yeah, yeah, just to let you know how recovered I am.
link |
I'm not a codependent,
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but I don't do anything I don't want to do.
link |
Yeah, you're ahead of me on that.
link |
So do you think about your mortality?
link |
That is a big part of how I was able to sort of like kickstart
link |
my codependence recovery.
link |
My dad passed a couple of years ago,
link |
and when you have someone close to you in your life die,
link |
everything gets real clear in terms of how we're a speck of dust
link |
who's only here for a certain amount of time.
link |
What do you think is the meaning of it all?
link |
Like what the speck of dust, what's maybe in your own life,
link |
what's the goal, the purpose of your existence?
link |
Well, you're exceptionally ambitious.
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You've created some incredible things
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in different disciplines.
link |
Yeah, we're all just managing our terror
link |
because we know we're going to die.
link |
So we create and build all these things and rituals
link |
and religions and robots and whatever we need to do
link |
to just distract ourselves from imminent rotting.
link |
We're rotting, we're all dying.
link |
And you know, I got very into terror management theory
link |
when my dad died and it resonated, it helped me
link |
and everyone's got their own religion or sense of purpose
link |
or thing that distracts them from the horrors of being human.
link |
What's the terror management theory?
link |
Terror management is basically the idea that
link |
since we're the only animal that knows they're gonna die,
link |
we have to basically distract ourselves with awards
link |
and achievements and games and whatever
link |
just in order to distract ourselves from the terror
link |
we would feel if we really processed the fact
link |
that we could not only, we are gonna die,
link |
but also could die at any minute
link |
because we're only superficially
link |
at the top of the food chain.
link |
And you know, technically we're at the top of the food chain
link |
if we have houses and guns and stuff, machines,
link |
but if me and a lion are in the woods together,
link |
but most things could kill us.
link |
I mean, a bee can kill some people.
link |
Like something this big can kill a lot of humans.
link |
Like, you know, so it's basically just to manage the terror
link |
that we all would feel if we were able to really be awake
link |
because we're mostly zombies, right?
link |
Job, school, religion, go to sleep, drink, football,
link |
relationship, dopamine, love, you know?
link |
We're kind of just like trudging along
link |
like zombies for the most part.
link |
And then I think...
link |
That fear of death adds some motivation.
link |
Well, I think I speak for a lot of people
link |
in saying that I can't wait to see
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what your terror creates in the next few years.
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Whitney, thank you so much for talking to me.
link |
Thanks for listening to this conversation
link |
with Whitney Cummings.
link |
And thank you to our presenting sponsor, Cash App.
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Download it and use code LEX Podcast.
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