back to indexMichael Stevens: Vsauce | Lex Fridman Podcast #58
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The following is a conversation with Michael Stevens,
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the creator of Vsauce,
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one of the most popular educational YouTube channels
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in the world with over 15 million subscribers
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and over 1.7 billion views.
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His videos often ask and answer questions
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that are both profound and entertaining,
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spanning topics from physics to psychology.
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Popular questions include,
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what if everyone jumped at once?
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Or what if the sun disappeared?
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Or why are things creepy?
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Or what if the earth stopped spinning?
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As part of his channel,
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he created three seasons of Mind Field,
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a series that explored human behavior.
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His curiosity and passion are contagious
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and inspiring to millions of people.
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And so as an educator,
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his impact and contribution to the world
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is truly immeasurable.
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This is the Artificial Intelligence Podcast.
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If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube,
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or simply connect with me on Twitter,
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at Lex Friedman, spelled F R I D M A N.
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And now here's my conversation with Michael Stevens.
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One of your deeper interests is psychology,
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understanding human behavior.
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You've pointed out how messy studying human behavior is
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and that it's far from the scientific rigor
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of something like physics, for example.
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How do you think we can take psychology
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from where it's been in the 20th century
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to something more like what the physicists,
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theoretical physicists are doing,
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something precise, something rigorous?
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Well, we could do it by finding
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the physical foundations of psychology, right?
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If all of our emotions and moods and feelings and behaviors
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are the result of mechanical behaviors of atoms
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and molecules in our brains,
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then can we find correlations?
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Perhaps like chaos makes that really difficult
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and the uncertainty principle and all these things.
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That we can't know the position and velocity
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of every single quantum state in a brain, probably.
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But I think that if we can get to that point with psychology,
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then we can start to think about consciousness
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in a physical and mathematical way.
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When we ask questions like, well, what is self reference?
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How can you think about yourself thinking?
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What are some mathematical structures
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that could bring that about?
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There's ideas of, in terms of consciousness
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and breaking it down into physics,
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there's ideas of panpsychism where people believe
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that whatever consciousness is,
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is a fundamental part of reality.
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It's almost like a physics law.
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Do you think, what's your views on consciousness?
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Do you think it has this deep part of reality
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or is it something that's deeply human
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and constructed by us humans?
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Starting nice and light and easy.
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Nothing I ask you today has actually proven answer.
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So we're just hypothesizing.
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So yeah, I mean, I should clarify, this is all speculation
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and I'm not an expert in any of these topics
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and I'm not God, but I think that consciousness
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is probably something that can be fully explained
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within the laws of physics.
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I think that our bodies and brains and the universe
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and at the quantum level is so rich and complex.
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I'd be surprised if we couldn't find a room
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for consciousness there.
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And why should we be conscious?
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Why are we aware of ourselves?
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That is a very strange and interesting
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and important question.
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And I think for the next few thousand years,
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we're going to have to believe in answers purely on faith.
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But my guess is that we will find that,
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within the configuration space
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of possible arrangements of the universe,
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there are some that contain memories of others.
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Literally, Julian Barber calls them time capsule states
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where you're like, yeah, not only do I have a scratch
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on my arm, but also this state of the universe
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also contains a memory in my head
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of being scratched by my cat three days ago.
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And for some reason, those kinds of states of the universe
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are more plentiful or more likely.
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When you say those states,
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the ones that contain memories of its past
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or ones that contain memories of its past
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and have degrees of consciousness.
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Just the first part, because I think the consciousness
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then emerges from the fact that a state of the universe
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that contains fragments or memories of other states
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is one where you're going to feel like there's time.
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You're going to feel like, yeah,
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things happened in the past.
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And I don't know what'll happen in the future
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because these states don't contain information
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For some reason, those kinds of states
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are either more common, more plentiful,
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or you could use the anthropic principle and just say,
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well, they're extremely rare,
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but until you are in one, or if you are in one,
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then you can ask questions,
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like you're asking me on this podcast.
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Yeah, it's like, why are we conscious?
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Well, because if we weren't,
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we wouldn't be asking why we were.
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You've kind of implied that you have a sense,
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again, hypothesis, theorizing
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that the universe is deterministic.
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What's your thoughts about free will?
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Do you think of the universe as deterministic
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in a sense that it's unrolling a particular,
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it's operating under a specific set of physical laws.
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And when you have to set the initial conditions,
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it will unroll in the exact same way
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in our particular line of the universe every time.
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That is a very useful way to think about the universe.
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It's done us well.
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It's brought us to the moon.
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It's brought us to where we are today, right?
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I would not say that I believe in determinism
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in that kind of an absolute form,
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or actually I just don't care.
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but I'm not gonna live my life like it is.
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What in your sense,
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cause you've studied kind of how we humans
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think of the world.
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What's in your view is the difference between our perception,
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like how we think the world is and reality.
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Do you think there's a huge gap there?
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Like we delude ourselves that the whole thing is an illusion.
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Just everything about human psychology,
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the way we see things and how things actually are.
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All the things you've studied, what's your sense?
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How big is the gap between reality and perception?
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Well, again, purely speculative.
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I think that we will never know the answer.
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We cannot know the answer.
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There is no experiment to find an answer to that question.
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Everything we experience is an event in our brain.
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When I look at a cat, I'm not even,
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I can't prove that there's a cat there.
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All I am experiencing is the perception of a cat
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inside my own brain.
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I am only a witness to the events of my mind.
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I think it is very useful to infer that
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if I witness the event of cat in my head,
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it's because I'm looking at a cat that is literally there
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and it has its own feelings and motivations
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and should be pet and given food and water and love.
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I think that's the way you should live your life.
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But whether or not we live in a simulation,
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I'm a brain in a vat, I don't know.
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Well, I care because it's a fascinating question.
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And it's a fantastic way to get people excited about
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all kinds of topics, physics, psychology,
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consciousness, philosophy.
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But at the end of the day, what would the difference be?
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The cat needs to be fed at the end of the day,
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otherwise it'll be a dead cat.
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Right, but if it's not even a real cat,
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then it's just like a video game cat.
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And right, so what's the difference between killing
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a digital cat in a video game because of neglect
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versus a real cat?
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It seems very different to us psychologically.
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Like I don't really feel bad about, oh my gosh,
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I forgot to feed my Tamagotchi, right?
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But I would feel terrible
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if I forgot to feed my actual cats.
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So can you just touch on the topic of simulation?
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Do you find this thought experiment that we're living
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in a simulation useful, inspiring or constructive
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in any kind of way?
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Do you think it's ridiculous?
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Do you think it could be true?
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Or is it just a useful thought experiment?
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I think it is extremely useful as a thought experiment
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because it makes sense to everyone,
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especially as we see virtual reality
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and computer games getting more and more complex.
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You're not talking to an audience in like Newton's time
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where you're like, imagine a clock
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that it has mechanics in it that are so complex
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that it can create love.
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And everyone's like, no.
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But today you really start to feel, man,
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at what point is this little robot friend of mine
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gonna be like someone I don't want to cancel plans with?
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And so it's a great, the thought experiment
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of do we live in a simulation?
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Am I a brain in a vat that is just being given
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electrical impulses from some nefarious other beings
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so that I believe that I live on earth
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and that I have a body and all of this?
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And the fact that you can't prove it either way
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is a fantastic way to introduce people
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to some of the deepest questions.
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So you mentioned a little buddy
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that you would want to cancel an appointment with.
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So that's a lot of our conversations.
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That's what my research is, is artificial intelligence.
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And I apologize, but you're such a fun person
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to ask these big questions with.
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Well, I hope I can give some answers that are interesting.
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Well, because of you've sharpened your brain's ability
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to explore some of the most, some of the questions
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that many scientists are actually afraid of even touching,
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which is fascinating.
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I think you're in that sense ultimately a great scientist
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through this process of sharpening your brain.
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Well, I don't know if I am a scientist.
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I think science is a way of knowing
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and there are a lot of questions I investigate
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that are not scientific questions.
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On like mind field, we have definitely done
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scientific experiments and studies that had hypotheses
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and all of that, but not to be too like precious
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about what does the word science mean?
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But I think I would just describe myself as curious
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and I hope that that curiosity is contagious.
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So to you, the scientific method
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is deeply connected to science
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because your curiosity took you to asking questions.
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To me, asking a good question, even if you feel,
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society feels that it's not a question
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within the reach of science currently.
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To me, asking the question is the biggest step
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of the scientific process.
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The scientific method is the second part
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and that may be what traditionally is called science,
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but to me, asking the questions,
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being brave enough to ask the questions,
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being curious and not constrained
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by what you're supposed to think is just true,
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what it means to be a scientist to me.
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It's certainly a huge part of what it means to be a human.
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If I were to say, you know what?
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I don't believe in forces.
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I think that when I push on a massive object,
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a ghost leaves my body and enters the object I'm pushing
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and these ghosts happen to just get really lazy
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when they're around massive things
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and that's why F equals MA.
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Oh, and by the way, the laziness of the ghost
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is in proportion to the mass of the object.
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So boom, prove me wrong.
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Every experiment, well, you can never find the ghost.
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And so none of that theory is scientific,
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but once I start saying, can I see the ghost?
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Why should there be a ghost?
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And if there aren't ghosts, what might I expect?
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And I start to do different tests to see,
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is this falsifiable?
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Are there things that should happen if there are ghosts
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or are there things that shouldn't happen?
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And do they, you know, what do I observe?
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Now I'm thinking scientifically.
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I don't think of science as, wow, a picture of a black hole.
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That's just a photograph.
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That's a sensory and perception experience.
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Science is how we got that and how we understand it
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and how we believe in it
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and how we reduce our uncertainty around what it means.
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But I would say I'm deeply within the scientific community
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and I'm sometimes disheartened by the elitism
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of the thinking, sort of not allowing yourself
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to think outside the box.
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So allowing the possibility
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of going against the conventions of science,
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I think is a beautiful part of some
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of the greatest scientists in history.
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I don't know, I'm impressed by scientists every day
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and revolutions in our knowledge of the world occur
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only under very special circumstances.
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It is very scary to challenge conventional thinking
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and risky because let's go back to elitism and ego, right?
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If you just say, you know what?
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I believe in the spirits of my body
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and all forces are actually created by invisible creatures
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that transfer themselves between objects.
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If you ridicule every other theory
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and say that you're correct,
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then ego gets involved and you just don't go anywhere.
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But fundamentally the question of well, what is a force
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is incredibly important.
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We need to have that conversation,
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but it needs to be done in this very political way
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of like, let's be respectful of everyone
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and let's realize that we're all learning together
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and not shutting out other people.
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And so when you look at a lot of revolutionary ideas,
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they were not accepted right away.
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And, you know, Galileo had a couple of problems
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with the authorities and later thinkers, Descartes,
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was like, all right, look, I kind of agree with Galileo,
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but I'm gonna have to not say that.
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I'll have to create and invent and write different things
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that keep me from being in trouble,
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but we still slowly made progress.
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Revolutions are difficult in all forms
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and certainly in science.
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Before we get to AI, on topic of revolutionary ideas,
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let me ask on a Reddit AMA, you said that is the earth flat
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is one of the favorite questions you've ever answered,
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speaking of revolutionary ideas.
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So your video on that, people should definitely watch,
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is really fascinating.
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Can you elaborate why you enjoyed
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answering this question so much?
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Yeah, well, it's a long story.
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I remember a long time ago,
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I was living in New York at the time,
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so it had to have been like 2009 or something.
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I visited the Flat Earth forums
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and this was before the Flat Earth theories
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became as sort of mainstream as they are.
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Sorry to ask the dumb question, forums, online forums.
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Yeah, the Flat Earth Society,
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I don't know if it's.com or.org, but I went there
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and I was reading their ideas
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and how they responded to typical criticisms of,
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well, the earth isn't flat because what about this?
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And I could not tell, and I mentioned this in my video,
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I couldn't tell how many of these community members
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actually believe the earth was flat or we're just trolling.
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And I realized that the fascinating thing is,
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how do we know anything?
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And what makes for a good belief
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versus a maybe not so tenable or good belief?
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And so that's really what my video
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about earth being flat is about.
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It's about, look, there are a lot of reasons
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that the earth is probably not flat,
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but a Flat Earth believer can respond
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to every single one of them, but it's all in an ad hoc way.
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And all of these, all of their rebuttals
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aren't necessarily gonna form
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a cohesive noncontradictory whole.
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And I believe that's the episode
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where I talk about Occam's razor
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and Newton's flaming laser sword.
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And then I say, well, you know what, wait a second.
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We know that space contracts as you move.
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And so to a particle moving near the speed of light
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towards earth, earth would be flattened
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in the direction of that particles travel.
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So to them, earth is flat.
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Like we need to be really generous to even wild ideas
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because they're all thinking,
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they're all the communication of ideas.
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And what else can it mean to be a human?
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Yeah, and I think I'm a huge fan
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of the Flat Earth theory, quote unquote,
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in the sense that to me it feels harmless
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to explore some of the questions
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of what it means to believe something,
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what it means to explore the edge of science and so on.
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Cause it's a harm, it's a, to me,
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nobody gets hurt whether the earth is flat or round,
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not literally, but I mean intellectually
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when we're just having a conversation.
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That said, again, to elitism,
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I find that scientists roll their eyes
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way too fast on the Flat Earth.
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The kind of dismissal that I see to this even notion,
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they haven't like sat down and say,
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what are the arguments that are being proposed?
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And this is why these arguments are incorrect.
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So that should be something
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that scientists should always do,
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even to the most sort of ideas that seem ridiculous.
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So I like this as almost, it's almost my test
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when I ask people what they think about Flat Earth theory,
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to see how quickly they roll their eyes.
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Well, yeah, I mean, let me go on record
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and say that the earth is not flat.
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It is a three dimensional spheroid.
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However, I don't know that and it has not been proven.
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Science doesn't prove anything.
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It just reduces uncertainty.
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Could the earth actually be flat?
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Extremely unlikely, extremely unlikely.
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And so it is a ridiculous notion
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if we care about how probable and certain our ideas might be.
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But I think it's incredibly important
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to talk about science in that way
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and to not resort to, well, it's true.
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It's true in the same way that a mathematical theorem
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And I think we're kind of like being pretty pedantic
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about defining this stuff.
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But like, sure, I could take a rocket ship out
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and I could orbit earth and look at it
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and it would look like a ball, right?
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But I still can't prove that I'm not living in a simulation,
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that I'm not a brain in a vat,
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that this isn't all an elaborate ruse
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created by some technologically advanced
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extraterrestrial civilization.
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So there's always some doubt and that's fine.
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And I think that kind of doubt, practically speaking,
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is useful when you start talking about quantum mechanics
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or string theory, sort of, it helps.
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To me, that kind of adds a little spice
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into the thinking process of scientists.
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So, I mean, just as a thought experiment,
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your video kind of, okay, say the earth is flat.
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What would the forces when you walk about this flat earth
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feel like to the human?
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That's a really nice thought experiment to think about.
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Right, because what's really nice about it
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is that it's a funny thought experiment,
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but you actually wind up accidentally learning
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a whole lot about gravity and about relativity
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And I think that's really the goal of what I'm doing.
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I'm not trying to like convince people
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that the earth is round.
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I feel like you either believe that it is or you don't
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and like, that's, you know, how can I change that?
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What I can do is change how you think
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and how you are introduced to important concepts.
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Like, well, how does gravity operate?
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Oh, it's all about the center of mass of an object.
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So right, on a sphere, we're all pulled towards the middle,
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essentially the centroid geometrically,
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but on a disc, ooh, you're gonna be pulled at a weird angle
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if you're out near the edge.
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And that stuff's fascinating.
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Yeah, and to me, that was, that particular video
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opened my eyes even more to what gravity is.
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It's just a really nice visualization tool of,
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because you always imagine gravity with spheres,
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with masses that are spheres.
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And imagining gravity on masses that are not spherical,
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some other shape, but in here, a plate, a flat object,
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is really interesting.
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It makes you really kind of visualize
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in a three dimensional way the force of gravity.
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Yeah, even if a disc the size of Earth would be impossible,
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I think anything larger than like the moon basically
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needs to be a sphere because gravity will round it out.
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So you can't have a teacup the size of Jupiter, right?
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There's a great book about the teacup in the universe
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that I highly recommend.
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I don't remember the author.
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I forget her name, but it's a wonderful book.
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I think it's called Teacup in the Universe.
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Just to link on this point briefly,
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your videos are generally super, people love them, right?
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If you look at the sort of number of likes versus dislikes
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is this measure of YouTube, right, is incredible.
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But this particular flat Earth video
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has more dislikes than usual.
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What do you, on that topic in general,
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what's your sense, how big is the community,
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not just who believes in flat Earth,
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but sort of the anti scientific community
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that naturally distrust scientists in a way
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that's not an open minded way,
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like really just distrust scientists
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like they're bought by some kind of mechanism
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of some kind of bigger system
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that's trying to manipulate human beings.
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What's your sense of the size of that community?
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You're one of the sort of great educators in the world
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that educates people on the exciting power of science.
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So you're kind of up against this community.
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What's your sense of it?
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I really have no idea.
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I haven't looked at the likes and dislikes
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on the flat Earth video.
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And so I would wonder if it has a greater percentage
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of dislikes than usual,
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is that because of people disliking it
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because they think that it's a video
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about Earth being flat and they find that ridiculous
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and they dislike it without even really watching much?
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Do they wish that I was more like dismissive
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of flat Earth theories?
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That's possible too.
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I know there are a lot of response videos
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that kind of go through the episode and are pro flat Earth,
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but I don't know if there's a larger community
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of unorthodox thinkers today
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than there have been in the past.
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And I just wanna not lose them.
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I want them to keep listening and thinking
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and by calling them all idiots or something,
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that does no good because how idiotic are they really?
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I mean, the Earth isn't a sphere at all.
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We know that it's an oblate spheroid
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and that in and of itself is really interesting.
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And I investigated that in which way is down
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where I'm like, really down does not point
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towards the center of the Earth.
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It points in different direction,
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depending on what's underneath you and what's above you
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and what's around you.
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The whole universe is tugging on me.
link |
And then you also show that gravity is non uniform
link |
Like if you, there's this I guess thought experiment
link |
if you build a bridge all the way across the Earth
link |
and then just knock out its pillars, what would happen?
link |
And you describe how it would be like a very chaotic,
link |
unstable thing that's happening
link |
because gravity is non uniform throughout the Earth.
link |
Yeah, in small spaces, like the ones we work in,
link |
we can essentially assume that gravity is uniform,
link |
It is weaker the further you are from the Earth.
link |
And it also is going to be,
link |
it's radially pointed towards the middle of the Earth.
link |
So a really large object will feel tidal forces
link |
because of that non uniformness.
link |
And we can take advantage of that with satellites, right?
link |
Gravitational induced torque.
link |
It's a great way to align your satellite
link |
without having to use fuel or any kind of engine.
link |
So let's jump back to it, artificial intelligence.
link |
What's your thought of the state of where we are at
link |
currently with artificial intelligence
link |
and what do you think it takes to build human level
link |
or superhuman level intelligence?
link |
I don't know what intelligence means.
link |
That's my biggest question at the moment.
link |
And I think it's because my instinct is always to go,
link |
well, what are the foundations here of our discussion?
link |
What does it mean to be intelligent?
link |
How do we measure the intelligence of an artificial machine
link |
or a program or something?
link |
Can we say that humans are intelligent?
link |
Because there's also a fascinating field
link |
of how do you measure human intelligence.
link |
But if we just take that for granted,
link |
saying that whatever this fuzzy intelligence thing
link |
we're talking about, humans kind of have it.
link |
What would be a good test for you?
link |
So during develop a test that's natural language
link |
conversation, would that impress you?
link |
A chat bot that you'd want to hang out
link |
and have a beer with for a bunch of hours
link |
or have dinner plans with.
link |
Is that a good test, natural language conversation?
link |
Is there something else that would impress you?
link |
Or is that also too difficult to think about?
link |
Oh yeah, I'm pretty much impressed by everything.
link |
I think that if there was a chat bot
link |
that was like incredibly, I don't know,
link |
really had a personality.
link |
And if I didn't be the Turing test, right?
link |
Like if I'm unable to tell that it's not another person
link |
but then I was shown a bunch of wires
link |
and mechanical components.
link |
And it was like, that's actually what you're talking to.
link |
I don't know if I would feel that guilty destroying it.
link |
I would feel guilty because clearly it's well made
link |
and it's a really cool thing.
link |
It's like destroying a really cool car or something
link |
but I would not feel like I was a murderer.
link |
So yeah, at what point would I start to feel that way?
link |
And this is such a subjective psychological question.
link |
If you give it movement or if you have it act as though
link |
or perhaps really feel pain as I destroy it
link |
and scream and resist, then I'd feel bad.
link |
Yeah, it's beautifully put.
link |
And let's just say act like it's a pain.
link |
So if you just have a robot that not screams,
link |
just like moans in pain if you kick it,
link |
that immediately just puts it in a class
link |
that we humans, it becomes, we anthropomorphize it.
link |
It almost immediately becomes human.
link |
So that's a psychology question
link |
as opposed to sort of a physics question.
link |
Right, I think that's a really good instinct to have.
link |
Screams and moans, even if you don't believe
link |
that it has the mental experience,
link |
the qualia of pain and suffering,
link |
I think it's still a good instinct to say,
link |
you know what, I'd rather not hurt it.
link |
The problem is that instinct can get us in trouble
link |
because then robots can manipulate that.
link |
And there's different kinds of robots.
link |
There's robots like the Facebook and the YouTube algorithm
link |
that recommends the video,
link |
and they can manipulate in the same kind of way.
link |
Well, let me ask you just to stick
link |
on artificial intelligence for a second.
link |
Do you have worries about existential threats from AI
link |
or existential threats from other technologies
link |
like nuclear weapons that could potentially destroy life
link |
on earth or damage it to a very significant degree?
link |
Yeah, of course I do.
link |
Especially the weapons that we create.
link |
There's all kinds of famous ways to think about this.
link |
And one is that, wow, what if we don't see
link |
advanced alien civilizations because of the danger
link |
What if we reach a point,
link |
and I think there's a channel, Thoughty2,
link |
geez, I wish I remembered the name of the channel,
link |
but he delves into this kind of limit
link |
of maybe once you discover radioactivity and its power,
link |
you've reached this important hurdle.
link |
And the reason that the skies are so empty
link |
is that no one's ever managed to survive as a civilization
link |
once they have that destructive power.
link |
And when it comes to AI, I'm not really very worried
link |
because I think that there are plenty of other people
link |
that are already worried enough.
link |
And oftentimes these worries are just,
link |
they just get in the way of progress.
link |
And they're questions that we should address later.
link |
And I think I talk about this in my interview
link |
with the self driving autonomous vehicle guy,
link |
as I think it was a bonus scene
link |
from the trolley problem episode.
link |
And I'm like, wow, what should a car do
link |
if this really weird contrived scenario happens
link |
where it has to swerve and save the driver, but kill a kid?
link |
And he's like, well, what would a human do?
link |
And if we resist technological progress
link |
because we're worried about all of these little issues,
link |
then it gets in the way.
link |
And we shouldn't avoid those problems,
link |
but we shouldn't allow them to be stumbling blocks
link |
So the folks like Sam Harris or Elon Musk
link |
are saying that we're not worried enough.
link |
So the worry should not paralyze technological progress,
link |
but we're sort of marching,
link |
technology is marching forward without the key scientists,
link |
the developing of technology,
link |
worrying about the overnight having some effects
link |
that would be very detrimental to society.
link |
So to push back on your thought of the idea
link |
that there's enough people worrying about it,
link |
Elon Musk says, there's not enough people
link |
worrying about it.
link |
That's the kind of balance is,
link |
it's like folks who are really focused
link |
on nuclear deterrence are saying
link |
there's not enough people worried
link |
about nuclear deterrence, right?
link |
So it's an interesting question of what is a good threshold
link |
of people to worry about these?
link |
And if it's too many people that are worried, you're right.
link |
It'll be like the press would over report on it
link |
and there'll be technological, halt technological progress.
link |
If not enough, then we can march straight ahead
link |
into that abyss that human beings might be destined for
link |
with the progress of technology.
link |
Yeah, I don't know what the right balance is
link |
of how many people should be worried
link |
and how worried should they be,
link |
but we're always worried about new technology.
link |
We know that Plato was worried about the written word.
link |
He was like, we shouldn't teach people to write
link |
because then they won't use their minds to remember things.
link |
There have been concerns over technology
link |
and its advancement since the beginning of recorded history.
link |
And so, I think, however,
link |
these conversations are really important to have
link |
because again, we learn a lot about ourselves.
link |
If we're really scared of some kind of AI
link |
like coming into being that is conscious or whatever
link |
and can self replicate, we already do that every day.
link |
It's called humans being born.
link |
They're not artificial, they're humans,
link |
but they're intelligent and I don't wanna live in a world
link |
where we're worried about babies being born
link |
because what if they become evil?
link |
What if they become mean people?
link |
What if they're thieves?
link |
Maybe we should just like, what, not have babies born?
link |
Like maybe we shouldn't create AI.
link |
It's like, we will want to have safeguards in place
link |
in the same way that we know, look,
link |
a kid could be born that becomes some kind of evil person,
link |
but we have laws, right?
link |
And it's possible that with advanced genetics in general,
link |
be able to, it's a scary thought to say that,
link |
this, my child, if born would have an 83% chance
link |
of being a psychopath, right?
link |
Like being able to, if it's something genetic,
link |
if there's some sort of, and what to use that information,
link |
what to do with that information
link |
is a difficult ethical thought.
link |
Yeah, and I'd like to find an answer that isn't,
link |
well, let's not have them live.
link |
You know, I'd like to find an answer that is,
link |
well, all human life is worthy.
link |
And if you have an 83% chance of becoming a psychopath,
link |
well, you still deserve dignity.
link |
And you still deserve to be treated well.
link |
You still have rights.
link |
At least at this part of the world, at least in America,
link |
there's a respect for individual life in that way.
link |
That's, well, to me, but again, I'm in this bubble,
link |
is a beautiful thing.
link |
But there's other cultures where individual human life
link |
is not that important, where a society,
link |
so I was born in the Soviet Union,
link |
where the strength of nation and society together
link |
is more important than any one particular individual.
link |
So it's an interesting also notion,
link |
the stories we tell ourselves.
link |
I like the one where individuals matter,
link |
but it's unclear that that was what the future holds.
link |
Well, yeah, and I mean, let me even throw this out.
link |
Like, what is artificial intelligence?
link |
How can it be artificial?
link |
I really think that we get pretty obsessed
link |
and stuck on the idea that there is some thing
link |
that is a wild human, a pure human organism
link |
without technology.
link |
But I don't think that's a real thing.
link |
I think that humans and human technology are one organism.
link |
Look at my glasses, okay?
link |
If an alien came down and saw me,
link |
would they necessarily know that this is an invention,
link |
that I don't grow these organically from my body?
link |
They wouldn't know that right away.
link |
And the written word, and spoons, and cups,
link |
these are all pieces of technology.
link |
We are not alone as an organism.
link |
And so the technology we create,
link |
whether it be video games or artificial intelligence
link |
that can self replicate and hate us,
link |
it's actually all the same organism.
link |
When you're in a car, where do you end in the car begin?
link |
It seems like a really easy question to answer,
link |
but the more you think about it,
link |
the more you realize, wow,
link |
we are in this symbiotic relationship with our inventions.
link |
And there are plenty of people who are worried about it.
link |
And there should be,
link |
but it's inevitable.
link |
And I think that even just us think of ourselves
link |
as individual intelligences may be silly notion
link |
because it's much better to think
link |
of the entirety of human civilization.
link |
All living organisms on earth is a single living organism.
link |
As a single intelligent creature,
link |
because you're right, everything's intertwined.
link |
Everything is deeply connected.
link |
So we mentioned, you know,
link |
Musk, so you're a curious lover of science.
link |
What do you think of the efforts that Elon Musk is doing
link |
with space exploration, with electric vehicles,
link |
with autopilot, sort of getting into the space
link |
of autonomous vehicles, with boring under LA
link |
and a Neuralink trying to communicate brain machine
link |
interfaces, communicate between machines
link |
Well, it's really inspiring.
link |
I mean, look at the fandom that he's amassed.
link |
It's not common for someone like that
link |
to have such a following.
link |
And so it's... Engineering nerd.
link |
Yeah, so it's really exciting.
link |
But I also think that a lot of responsibility
link |
comes with that kind of power.
link |
So like if I met him, I would love to hear how he feels
link |
about the responsibility he has.
link |
When there are people who are such a fan of your ideas
link |
and your dreams and share them so closely with you,
link |
you have a lot of power.
link |
And he didn't always have that, you know?
link |
He wasn't born as Elon Musk.
link |
Well, he was, but well, he was named that later.
link |
But the point is that I wanna know the psychology
link |
of becoming a figure like him.
link |
Well, I don't even know how to phrase the question right,
link |
but it's a question about what do you do
link |
when you're following, your fans become so large
link |
that it's almost bigger than you.
link |
And how do you responsibly manage that?
link |
And maybe it doesn't worry him at all.
link |
And that's fine too.
link |
But I'd be really curious.
link |
And I think there are a lot of people that go through this
link |
when they realize, whoa, there are a lot of eyes on me.
link |
There are a lot of people who really take what I say
link |
very earnestly and take it to heart and will defend me.
link |
And whew, that's, that's, that can be dangerous.
link |
And you have to be responsible with it.
link |
Both in terms of impact on society
link |
and psychologically for the individual,
link |
just the burden psychologically on Elon?
link |
Yeah, yeah, how does he think about that?
link |
Part of his persona.
link |
Well, let me throw that right back at you
link |
because in some ways you're just a funny guy
link |
that gotten a humongous following,
link |
a funny guy with a curiosity.
link |
You've got a huge following.
link |
How do you psychologically deal with the responsibility?
link |
In many ways you have a reach
link |
in many ways bigger than Elon Musk.
link |
What is your, what is the burden that you feel in educating
link |
being one of the biggest educators in the world
link |
where everybody's listening to you
link |
and actually everybody, like most of the world
link |
that's uses YouTube for educational material,
link |
trust you as a source of good, strong scientific thinking.
link |
It's a burden and I try to approach it
link |
with a lot of humility and sharing.
link |
Like I'm not out there doing
link |
a lot of scientific experiments.
link |
I am sharing the work of real scientists
link |
and I'm celebrating their work and the way that they think
link |
and the power of curiosity.
link |
But I wanna make it clear at all times that like,
link |
look, we don't know all the answers
link |
and I don't think we're ever going to reach a point
link |
where we're like, wow, and there you go.
link |
That's the universe.
link |
It's this equation, you plug in some conditions or whatever
link |
and you do the math
link |
and you know what's gonna happen tomorrow.
link |
I don't think we're ever gonna reach that point,
link |
but I think that there is a tendency
link |
to sometimes believe in science and become elitist
link |
and become, I don't know, hard when in reality
link |
it should humble you and make you feel smaller.
link |
I think there's something very beautiful
link |
about feeling very, very small and very weak
link |
and to feel that you need other people.
link |
So I try to keep that in mind and say,
link |
look, thanks for watching.
link |
Vsauce is not, I'm not Vsauce, you are.
link |
When I start the episodes, I say,
link |
hey, Vsauce, Michael here.
link |
Vsauce and Michael are actually a different thing
link |
I don't know if that's always clear,
link |
but yeah, I have to approach it that way
link |
because it's not about me.
link |
Yeah, so it's not even,
link |
you're not feeling the responsibility.
link |
You're just sort of plugging into this big thing
link |
that is scientific exploration of our reality
link |
and you're a voice that represents a bunch,
link |
but you're just plugging into this big Vsauce ball
link |
that others, millions of others are plugged into.
link |
Yeah, and I'm just hoping to encourage curiosity
link |
and responsible thinking
link |
and an embracement of doubt
link |
and being okay with that.
link |
So I'm next week talking to Christos Gudrow.
link |
I'm not sure if you're familiar who he is,
link |
but he's the VP of engineering,
link |
head of the quote unquote YouTube algorithm
link |
or the search and discovery.
link |
So let me ask, first high level,
link |
do you have a question for him
link |
that if you can get an honest answer that you would ask,
link |
but more generally,
link |
how do you think about the YouTube algorithm
link |
that drives some of the motivation behind,
link |
no, some of the design decisions you make
link |
as you ask and answer some of the questions you do,
link |
how would you improve this algorithm in your mind in general?
link |
So just what would you ask him?
link |
And outside of that,
link |
how would you like to see the algorithm improve?
link |
Well, I think of the algorithm as a mirror.
link |
It reflects what people put in
link |
and we don't always like what we see in that mirror.
link |
From the individual mirror
link |
to the individual mirror to the society.
link |
Both, in the aggregate,
link |
it's reflecting back what people on average want to watch.
link |
And when you see things being recommended to you,
link |
it's reflecting back what it thinks you want to see.
link |
And specifically, I would guess that it's
link |
not just what you want to see,
link |
but what you will click on
link |
and what you will watch some of and stay on YouTube
link |
I don't think that, this is all me guessing,
link |
but I don't think that YouTube cares
link |
if you only watch like a second of a video,
link |
as long as the next thing you do is open another video.
link |
If you close the app or close the site,
link |
that's a problem for them
link |
because they're not a subscription platform.
link |
They're not like, look,
link |
you're giving us 20 bucks a month no matter what,
link |
They need you to watch and spend time there and see ads.
link |
So one of the things I'm curious about
link |
whether they do consider longer term sort of develop,
link |
your longer term development as a human being,
link |
which I think ultimately will make you feel better
link |
about using YouTube in the longterm
link |
and allowing you to stick with it for longer.
link |
Because even if you feed the dopamine rush in the short term
link |
and you keep clicking on cat videos,
link |
eventually you sort of wake up like from a drug
link |
and say, I need to quit this.
link |
So I wonder how much you're trying to optimize
link |
for the longterm because when I look at the,
link |
your videos aren't exactly sort of, no offense,
link |
but they're not the most clickable.
link |
They're both the most clickable
link |
and I feel I watched the entire thing
link |
and I feel a better human after I watched it, right?
link |
So like they're not just optimizing for the clickability
link |
because I hope, so my thought is how do you think of it?
link |
And does it affect your own content?
link |
Like how deep you go,
link |
how profound you explore the directions and so on.
link |
I've been really lucky in that I don't worry too much
link |
about the algorithm.
link |
I mean, look at my thumbnails.
link |
I don't really go too wild with them.
link |
And with minefield where I'm in partnership with YouTube
link |
on the thumbnails, I'm often like, let's pull this back.
link |
Let's be mysterious.
link |
But usually I'm just trying to do
link |
what everyone else is not doing.
link |
So if everyone's doing crazy Photoshop kind of thumbnails,
link |
I'm like, what if the thumbnails just a line?
link |
And what if the title is just a word?
link |
And I kind of feel like all of the Vsauce channels
link |
have cultivated an audience that expects that.
link |
And so they would rather Jake make a video
link |
that's just called stains than one called,
link |
I explored stains, shocking.
link |
But there are other audiences out there that want that.
link |
And I think most people kind of want
link |
what you see the algorithm favoring,
link |
which is mainstream traditional celebrity
link |
and news kind of information.
link |
I mean, that's what makes YouTube really different
link |
than other streaming platforms.
link |
No one's like, what's going on in the world?
link |
I'll open up Netflix to find out.
link |
But you do open up Twitter to find that out.
link |
You open up Facebook and you can open up YouTube
link |
because you'll see that the trending videos
link |
are like what happened amongst the traditional mainstream
link |
people in different industries.
link |
And that's what's being shown.
link |
And it's not necessarily YouTube saying,
link |
we want that to be what you see.
link |
It's that that's what people click on.
link |
When they see Ariana Grande, you know,
link |
reads a love letter from like her high school sweetheart,
link |
they're like, I wanna see that.
link |
And when they see a video from me
link |
that's got some lines in math and it's called law and causes
link |
they're like, well, I mean, I'm just on the bus.
link |
Like I don't have time to dive into a whole lesson.
link |
So, you know, before you get super mad at YouTube,
link |
you should say, really,
link |
they're just reflecting back human behavior.
link |
Is there something you would improve about the algorithm
link |
knowing of course, that as far as we're concerned,
link |
it's a black box, so we don't know how it works.
link |
Right, and I don't think that even anyone at YouTube
link |
really knows what it's doing.
link |
They know what they've tweaked, but then it learns.
link |
I think that it learns and it decides how to behave.
link |
And sometimes the YouTube employees are left going,
link |
Maybe we should like change the value
link |
of how much it, you know, worries about watch time.
link |
And maybe it should worry more about something else.
link |
But I mean, I would like to see,
link |
I don't know what they're doing and not doing.
link |
Well, is there a conversation
link |
that you think they should be having just internally,
link |
whether they're having it or not?
link |
Is there something,
link |
should they be thinking about the longterm future?
link |
Should they be thinking about educational content
link |
and whether that's educating about what just happened
link |
in the world today, news or educational content,
link |
like what you're providing,
link |
which is asking big sort of timeless questions
link |
about how the way the world works.
link |
Well, it's interesting.
link |
What should they think about?
link |
Because it's called YouTube, not our tube.
link |
And that's why I think they have
link |
so many phenomenal educational creators.
link |
You don't have shows like Three Blue One Brown
link |
or Physics Girl or Looking Glass Universe or Up and Atom
link |
or Brain Scoop or, I mean, I could go on and on.
link |
They aren't on Amazon Prime and Netflix
link |
and they don't have commissioned shows from those platforms.
link |
It's all organically happening
link |
because there are people out there
link |
that want to share their passion for learning,
link |
that wanna share their curiosity.
link |
And YouTube could promote those kinds of shows more,
link |
but first of all, they probably wouldn't get as many clicks
link |
and YouTube needs to make sure that the average user
link |
is always clicking and staying on the site.
link |
They could still promote it more for the good of society,
link |
but then we're making some really weird claims
link |
about what's good for society
link |
because I think that cat videos
link |
are also an incredibly important part
link |
of what it means to be a human.
link |
I mentioned this quote before from Unumuno about,
link |
look, I've seen a cat like estimate distances
link |
and calculate a jump more often than I've seen a cat cry.
link |
And so things that play with our emotions
link |
and make us feel things can be cheesy and can feel cheap,
link |
but like, man, that's very human.
link |
And so even the dumbest vlog is still so important
link |
that I don't think I have a better claim to take its spot
link |
than it has to have that spot.
link |
It puts a mirror to us, the beautiful parts,
link |
the ugly parts, the shallow parts, the deep parts.
link |
What I would like to see is,
link |
I miss the days when engaging with content on YouTube
link |
helped push it into my subscribers timelines.
link |
It used to be that when I liked a video,
link |
say from Veritasium, it would show up in the feed
link |
on the front page of the app or the website of my subscribers.
link |
And I knew that if I liked a video,
link |
I could send it 100,000 views or more.
link |
That no longer is true,
link |
but I think that was a good user experience.
link |
When I subscribe to someone, when I'm following them,
link |
I want to see more of what they like.
link |
I want them to also curate the feed for me.
link |
And I think that Twitter and Facebook are doing that
link |
in also some ways that are kind of annoying,
link |
but I would like that to happen more.
link |
And I think we would see communities being stronger
link |
on YouTube if it was that way instead of YouTube going,
link |
well, technically Michael liked this Veritasium video,
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but people are way more likely to click on Carpool Karaoke.
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So I don't even care who they are, just give them that.
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Not saying anything against Carpool Karaoke,
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that is a extremely important part of our society,
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what it means to be a human on earth, you know, but.
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I'll say it sucks, but.
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Yeah, but a lot of people would disagree with you
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and they should be able to see as much of that as they want.
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And I think even people who don't think they like it
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should still be really aware of it
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because it's such an important thing.
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It's such an influential thing.
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But yeah, I just wish that like new channels I discover
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and that I subscribe to,
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I wish that my subscribers found out about that
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because especially in the education community,
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a rising tide floats all boats.
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If you watch a video from Numberphile,
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you're just more likely to want to watch an episode from me,
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whether it be on Vsauce1 or Ding.
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It's not competitive in the way that traditional TV was
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where it's like, well, if you tune into that show,
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it means you're not watching mine
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because they both air at the same time.
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So helping each other out through collaborations
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takes a lot of work,
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but just through engaging, commenting on their videos,
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liking their videos, subscribing to them, whatever,
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that I would love to see become easier and more powerful.
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So a quick and impossibly deep question,
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last question about mortality.
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You've spoken about death as an interesting topic.
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Do you think about your own mortality?
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Yeah, every day, it's really scary.
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So what do you think is the meaning of life
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that mortality makes very explicit?
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So why are you here on earth, Michael?
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What's the point of this whole thing?
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What does mortality in the context of the whole universe
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make you realize about yourself?
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Just you, Michael Stevens.
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Well, it makes me realize
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that I am destined to become a notion.
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I'm destined to become a memory and we can extend life.
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I think there's really exciting things being done
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but we still don't know how to protect you
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from some accident that could happen,
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some unforeseen thing.
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Maybe we could save my connectome
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and recreate my consciousness digitally,
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but even that could be lost
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if it's stored on a physical medium or something.
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So basically, I just think that embracing
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and realizing how cool it is,
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that someday I will just be an idea.
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And there won't be a Michael anymore
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that can be like, no, that's not what I meant.
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It'll just be what people,
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they have to guess what I meant.
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And they'll remember me
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and how I live on as that memory
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will maybe not even be who I want it to be.
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But there's something powerful about that.
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And there's something powerful
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about letting future people run the show themselves.
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I think I'm glad to get out of their way at some point
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and say, all right, it's your world now.
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So you, the physical entity, Michael,
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have ripple effects in the space of ideas
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that far outlives you in ways that you can't control,
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but it's nevertheless fascinating to think,
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I mean, especially with you,
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you can imagine an alien species
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when they finally arrive and destroy all of us
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would watch your videos to try to figure out
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what were the questions that these people.
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But even if they didn't,
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I still think that there will be ripples.
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Like when I say memory,
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I don't specifically mean people remember my name
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and my birth date and like there's a photo of me
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on Wikipedia, like all that can be lost,
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but I still would hope that people ask questions
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and teach concepts in some of the ways
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that I have found useful and satisfying.
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Even if they don't know that I was the one
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who tried to popularize it, that's fine.
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But if Earth was completely destroyed,
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like burnt to a crisp, everything on it today,
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what would, the universe wouldn't care.
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Like Jupiter's not gonna go, oh no, and that could happen.
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So we do however have the power to launch things
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into space to try to extend how long our memory exists.
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And what I mean by that is,
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we are recording things about the world
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and we're learning things and writing stories
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and all of this and preserving that is truly
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what I think is the essence of being a human.
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We are autobiographers of the universe
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and we're really good at it.
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We're better than fossils.
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We're better than light spectrum.
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We're better than any of that.
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We collect much more detailed memories
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of what's happening, much better data.
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And so that should be our legacy.
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And I hope that that's kind of mine too
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in terms of people remembering something
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or having some kind of effect.
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But even if I don't, you can't not have an effect.
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This is not me feeling like,
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I hope that I have this powerful legacy.
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It's like, no matter who you are, you will.
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But you also have to embrace the fact
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that that impact might look really small and that's okay.
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One of my favorite quotes is from Tessa the Durbervilles.
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And it's along the lines of the measure of your life
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depends on not your external displacement
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but your subjective experience.
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If I am happy and those that I love are happy,
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can that be enough?
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Because if so, excellent.
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I think there's no better place to end it, Michael.
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Thank you so much.
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It was an honor to meet you.
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Thanks for talking to me.
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Thank you, it was a pleasure.
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Thanks for listening to this conversation
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with Michael Stevens.
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And thank you to our presenting sponsor, Cash App.
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Download it, use code LexPodcast,
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you'll get $10 and $10 will go to First,
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a STEM education nonprofit that inspires
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hundreds of thousands of young minds
link |
to learn, to dream of engineering our future.
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If you enjoy this podcast, subscribe on YouTube,
link |
give it five stars on Apple Podcast,
link |
support it on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter.
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And now, let me leave you with some words of wisdom
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from Albert Einstein.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Curiosity has its own reason for existence.
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One cannot help but be in awe
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when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity,
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of life, the marvelous structure of reality.
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It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend
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a little of this mystery every day.
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Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.