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Simon Sinek: Leadership, Hard Work, Optimism and the Infinite Game | Lex Fridman Podcast #82


small model | large model

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The following is a conversation with Simon Sinek,
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author of several books,
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including Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last,
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and his latest, The Infinite Game.
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He's one of the best communicators
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of what it takes to be a good leader,
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to inspire, to build businesses
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that solve big, difficult challenges.
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This is the Artificial Intelligence Podcast.
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If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube,
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support on Patreon, or simply connect with me on Twitter,
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at Lex Freedman, spelled FRID MAN.
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As usual, I'll do one or two minutes of ads now,
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and never any ads in the middle
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that can break the flow of the conversation.
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I hope that works for you,
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and doesn't hurt the listening experience.
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Quick summary of the ads, two sponsors,
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When I first heard about Masterclass,
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I honestly thought it was too good to be true.
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Chris Hadfield on Space Exploration,
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Neil deGrasse Tyson on Scientific Thinking and Communication,
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00:02:44.520
Will Wright, the creator of Sims City,
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and Sims on Game Design.
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I love that game.
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00:02:51.840
Jane Goodall on Conservation,
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00:02:53.840
Carlos Santana, one of my favorite guitarists on guitar,
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00:02:57.400
Gary Kasparov on Chess.
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Obviously, I'm Russian.
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00:03:02.760
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also Phil Ivy, gives a course as well, and many, many more.
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Watch each all the way through from start to finish.
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Once again, sign up at masterclass.com slash Lex
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to get a discount and to support this podcast.
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And now, here's my conversation with Simon Sinek.
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In The Infinite Game, your most recent book,
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you described the finite game and the infinite game.
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So from my perspective of artificial intelligence
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and game theory in general,
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I'm a huge fan of finite games
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from the broad philosophical sense of something
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that in the robotics, artificial intelligence space,
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we know how to deal with.
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And then you describe the infinite game,
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which has no exact static rules,
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has no well defined static objective,
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has the players are known, unknown, they changed,
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there's the dynamic element.
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So this is something that applies to business,
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politics, life itself.
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So can you try to articulate the objective function here
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of the infinite game or in the cliche,
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broad philosophical sense, what is the meaning of life?
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Go for the start with the soft polls.
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Easy question first.
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So James Kars was the philosopher who originally articulated
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this concept of finite and infinite games.
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And when I learned about it,
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it really challenged my view of how the world works, right?
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Because I think we all think about winning
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and being the best and being number one.
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But if you think about it,
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only in a finite game can that exist.
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The game that has fixed rules, agreed upon objectives
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and known players, like football or baseball.
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There's always a beginning, middle and end.
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And if there's a winner, there has to be a loser.
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Infinite games, as Kars describes them, as you said,
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have known and unknown players,
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which means anyone can join.
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It has a changeable rules,
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which means you can play however you want.
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And the objective is to perpetuate the game,
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to stay in the game as long as possible.
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In other words, there's no such thing as being number one
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or winning in a game that has no finish line.
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And what I learned is that when we try to win
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in a game that has no finish line,
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we try to be number, we try to be the best
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in a game that has no agreed upon objectives
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or agreed upon metrics or time frames,
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there's a few consistent and predictable outcomes,
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the decline of trust, the decline of cooperation,
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the decline of innovation.
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And I find this fascinating
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because so many of the ways that we run most organizations
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is with a finite mindset.
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So trying to reduce the beautiful complex thing
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that is life or what politics or business
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into something very narrow.
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And in that process, the reductionist process,
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you lose something fundamental
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that makes the whole thing work in the longterm.
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So returning, I'm not gonna let you off the hook easy.
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What is the meaning of life?
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So what is the objective function
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that is worthwhile to pursue?
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Well, if you think about our tombstones, right?
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They have the date we were born and the date we died,
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but really it's what we do with the gap in between.
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There's a poem called the dash.
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You know, it's the dash that matters.
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It's what we do between the time we're born
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and the time we die that gives our life meaning.
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And if we live our lives with a finite mindset,
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which means to accumulate more power or money
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than anybody else to outdo everyone else
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to be number one, to be the best,
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we don't take any of us with us.
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We don't take any of it with us, we just die.
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The people who get remembered,
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the way we wanna be remembered
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is how, what kind of people we were, right?
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Devoted mother, loving father,
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what kind of person we were to other people.
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Jack Welch just died recently.
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And the Washington Post,
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when it wrote the headline for his obit,
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it wrote, he pleased Wall Street and distressed employees.
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And that's his legacy.
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A finite player who is obsessed with winning.
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Yes, who leaves behind a legacy of short term gains
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for a few and distress for many.
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That's his legacy.
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And every single one of us gets the choice
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of the kind of legacy we wanna have.
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Do we wanna be remembered for our contributions
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or our detractions?
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To live with a finite mindset,
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to live a career with a finite mindset,
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to be number one, be the best, be the most famous.
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You live a life like Jack Welch, you know?
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To live a life of service,
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to see those around us rise,
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to contribute to our communities, to our organizations,
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to leave them in better shape than we found them.
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That's the kind of legacy most of us would like to have.
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So day to day, when you think about what is the fundamental
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goals, dreams, motivations of an infinite game,
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of seeing your life, your career is an infinite game.
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What does that look like?
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I mean, I guess I'm sort of trying to stick
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on this personal ego, personal drive,
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the thing that the fire, the reason we wanna wake up
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in the morning and the reason we can't go to bed
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because we're so excited, what is that?
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So for me, it's about having a just cause.
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It's about a vision that's bigger than me.
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That my work gets to contribute
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to something larger than myself, you know?
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That's what drives me every day.
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I wake up every morning with a vision of a world
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that does not yet exist,
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a world in which the vast majority of people
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wake up every single morning inspired,
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feel safe at work and return home fulfilled
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at the end of the day.
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It is not the world we live in.
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And so that we still have work to do
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is the thing that drives me.
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I know what my underlying values are.
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I wake up to inspire people to do the things
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that inspire them.
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And these are the things that I,
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these are my go tos, my touch points
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that inspire me to keep working.
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I think of a career like an iceberg, you know?
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If you have a vision for something,
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you're the only one who can see
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the iceberg underneath the ocean.
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But if you start working at it, a little bit shows up.
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And now a few other people can see what you imagine,
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be like, oh, right, yeah, no,
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I wanna help build that as well.
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And if you have a lot of success,
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then you have a lot of iceberg.
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And people can see this huge iceberg
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and they say, you've accomplished so much.
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But what I see is all the work still yet to be done.
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You know, I still see the huge iceberg underneath the ocean.
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And so the growth, you talk about momentum.
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So the incremental revealing of the iceberg
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is what drives you.
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Well, it necessarily is incremental.
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What drives me is that, is the realization,
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is realizing the iceberg,
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bringing more of the iceberg from the unknown to the known,
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bringing more of the vision
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from the imagination to reality.
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And you have this fundamental vision of optimism.
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You call yourself an optimist.
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I mean, in this world, I have a sort of,
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I see myself a little bit as the main character
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from the idiot by Dostoyevsky,
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who's also kind of seen by society as a fool
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because he was optimistic.
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So one, can you maybe articulate
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where that sense of optimism comes from?
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And maybe you also try to articulate your vision
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of the future where people are inspired,
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where optimism drives us.
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It's easy to forget that when you look at social media
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and so on with the word toxicity
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and negativity can often get more likes
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that optimism has a sort of a beauty to it.
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And I do hope it's out there.
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So can you try to articulate that vision?
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Yeah, yeah.
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So I mean, for me, optimism and being an optimist
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is just seeing the silver lining in every cloud.
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Even in tragedy, it brings people together.
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And the question is, can we see that?
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Can you see the beauty that is in everything?
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I don't think optimism is foolishness.
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I don't think optimism is blindness,
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though it probably involves some naivete,
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the belief that things will get better,
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the belief that we tend towards the good,
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even in times of struggle or bad.
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You can't sustain war, but you can sustain peace.
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I think things that are stable are more sustainable,
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things that are optimistic are more sustainable
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than things that are chaotic.
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So you see people as fundamentally good.
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I mean, some people may disagree
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that you can't sustain peace, you can't sustain war.
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I mean, you don't have to, I think war is costly.
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It involves life and money
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and peace does not involve those things.
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It requires work.
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I'm not saying it doesn't require work,
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but it doesn't drain resources,
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I think the same way that war does.
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You know, the people that would say
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that we always have war,
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and I just talked to the historian of Stalin,
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is, you know, would say that conflict
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and the desire for power and conflict
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is central to human nature.
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I concur.
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But something in your words also,
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perhaps it's the naive aspect that I also share,
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is that you have an optimism
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that people are fundamentally good.
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I'm an idealist, you know?
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And I think idealism is good.
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I'm not a fool to believe
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that the ideals that I imagine can come true.
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Of course there'll never be world peace,
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but shouldn't we die trying?
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You know, I think that's the whole point.
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That's the whole point of vision.
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Vision should be idealistic
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and it should be for all practical purposes impossible.
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But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
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And it's the milestones that we reach
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that take us closer to that ideal
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that make us feel that our life and our work have meaning
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and we're contributing to something bigger than ourselves.
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You know, just because it's impossible
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doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
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As I said, we're still moving the ball down the field.
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We're still making progress.
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Things are still getting better,
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even if we never get to that ideal state.
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So I think idealism is a good thing.
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You know, in the word infinite game,
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one of the beautiful and tragic aspects of life,
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human life at least, at least from the biological perspective
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is that it ends.
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So sadly, it's...
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To some people, yeah.
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Fine, it's tragic to some people or is it ends?
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I think some people believe that it ends on the day you die
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and some people think it continues on.
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And there's a lot of different ways
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to think what continues on even looks like.
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But let me drag it back to the personal.
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Sure.
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Which is how do you think about your own mortality?
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Are you afraid of death?
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How do you think about your own death?
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I definitely haven't accomplished everything
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I want to contribute to.
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I would like more time on this earth
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to keep working towards that vision.
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Do you think about the fact that it ends for you?
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Are you cognizant of it?
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Of course I'm cognizant of it.
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I mean, aren't we all?
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I don't dwell on it.
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I'm aware of it.
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I know that my life is finite
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and I know that I have a certain amount of time
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left on this planet
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00:14:36.640
and I'd like to make that time be valuable.
link |
00:14:40.480
Some people would think that ideas kind of allow you
link |
00:14:43.640
to have a certain kind of immortality.
link |
00:14:52.440
Maybe to linger on this kind of question.
link |
00:14:54.600
So first to push back on the,
link |
00:14:56.440
you said that everyone's cognizant of the immortality.
link |
00:14:58.840
There's a guy named Ernest Becker
link |
00:15:00.840
who would disagree that you basically say
link |
00:15:03.600
that most of human cognition is created by us
link |
00:15:08.600
trying to create an illusion
link |
00:15:09.960
and try to hide the fact from ourselves
link |
00:15:12.000
the fact that we're going to die
link |
00:15:13.360
to try to think that it's all going to go on forever.
link |
00:15:17.000
But the fact that we know that it doesn't?
link |
00:15:19.560
Yes, but this mix of denial.
link |
00:15:21.800
I mean, I think the book is called Denial of Death.
link |
00:15:24.400
It's this constant denial that we're running away from.
link |
00:15:27.560
In fact, some would argue that the inspiration,
link |
00:15:33.760
the incredible ideas you've put out there,
link |
00:15:35.560
your TED Talk has been seen
link |
00:15:36.960
by millions and millions of people, right?
link |
00:15:38.840
It's just you trying to desperately fight the fact
link |
00:15:41.760
that you are biologically mortal
link |
00:15:43.960
and your creative genius comes from the fact
link |
00:15:48.160
that you're trying to create ideas
link |
00:15:49.440
that live on long past you.
link |
00:15:52.160
Well, that's very nice of you.
link |
00:15:53.160
I mean, I would like my ideas to live on beyond me
link |
00:15:57.280
because I think that is a good test
link |
00:15:59.400
that those ideas have value in the lives of others.
link |
00:16:03.560
I think that's a good test
link |
00:16:05.400
that others would continue to talk about
link |
00:16:08.760
or share the ideas long after I'm gone.
link |
00:16:12.560
I think is perhaps the greatest compliment
link |
00:16:16.400
one can get for one's own work.
link |
00:16:20.680
But I don't think it's my awareness of my mortality
link |
00:16:23.480
that drives me to do it.
link |
00:16:25.600
It's my desire to contribute that drives me to do it.
link |
00:16:30.080
It's the optimal, it's the optimist vision.
link |
00:16:32.800
It's the pleasure and the fulfillment you get
link |
00:16:36.480
from inspiring others.
link |
00:16:38.600
It's as pure as that.
link |
00:16:42.000
Let me ask, listen, I'm Russian.
link |
00:16:43.360
I'm trying to get used to it.
link |
00:16:44.200
You're good, you're good.
link |
00:16:45.040
I'm enjoying it.
link |
00:16:45.880
You get you into these dark areas.
link |
00:16:46.720
You're good, I'm enjoying it.
link |
00:16:47.560
Is the ego tied up into it somehow?
link |
00:16:50.000
So your name is extremely well known.
link |
00:16:54.440
If your name wasn't attached to it,
link |
00:16:56.080
do you think you would act differently?
link |
00:16:58.520
I mean, for years I hated that my name was attached to it.
link |
00:17:02.240
I had a rule for years that I wouldn't have my face
link |
00:17:06.080
on the front page of the website.
link |
00:17:09.760
I had a fight with the publisher
link |
00:17:10.840
because I didn't want my name big on the book.
link |
00:17:14.040
I wanted it tiny on the book
link |
00:17:15.440
because I kept telling them it's not about me,
link |
00:17:17.040
it's about the ideas.
link |
00:17:18.160
They wanted to put my name on the top of my book, I refused.
link |
00:17:20.640
None of my books have my names on the top
link |
00:17:22.400
because I won't let them.
link |
00:17:25.280
They would like very much to put my name
link |
00:17:26.560
on the top of the book,
link |
00:17:27.400
but the idea has to be bigger than me.
link |
00:17:30.200
I'm not bigger than the idea.
link |
00:17:32.040
That's beautifully put.
link |
00:17:32.880
Do you think ego?
link |
00:17:34.440
But I also am aware that I've become recognized
link |
00:17:38.000
as the messenger.
link |
00:17:39.440
And even though I still think the message is bigger than me,
link |
00:17:42.000
I recognize that I have a responsibility as the messenger.
link |
00:17:45.160
And whether I like it or not is irrelevant.
link |
00:17:47.560
I accept the responsibility, I'm happy to do it.
link |
00:17:53.040
I'm not sure how to phrase this,
link |
00:17:54.720
but there's a large part of the culture right now
link |
00:17:58.920
that emphasizes all the things
link |
00:18:01.880
that nobody disagrees with,
link |
00:18:03.400
which is health, sleep, diet, relaxation,
link |
00:18:07.080
meditation, vacation are really important.
link |
00:18:10.320
And there's no, you know, it's like,
link |
00:18:11.720
you can't really argue against that.
link |
00:18:13.440
In fact, people...
link |
00:18:14.400
Less sleep.
link |
00:18:16.000
Less, I'm joking.
link |
00:18:17.040
Yes, well, that's the thing.
link |
00:18:18.920
I often speak to the fact that passion
link |
00:18:23.760
and love for what you're doing
link |
00:18:25.800
and the two words hard work,
link |
00:18:28.320
especially in the engineering fields,
link |
00:18:30.320
are more important to prioritize than sleep.
link |
00:18:35.880
Even though sleep is really important,
link |
00:18:38.120
your mind should be obsessed with the hard work,
link |
00:18:40.560
with the passion and so on.
link |
00:18:41.680
And then I get some pushback, of course, from people.
link |
00:18:44.920
What do you make sense of that?
link |
00:18:46.080
Is that just me, the crazy Russian engineer
link |
00:18:49.160
really pushing hard work?
link |
00:18:50.320
Probably.
link |
00:18:52.480
I think that's a short term strategy.
link |
00:18:55.120
I think if you sacrifice your health for the work,
link |
00:18:57.920
at some point, it catches up with you.
link |
00:19:00.360
And at some point, it's like going, going, going,
link |
00:19:02.480
and you get sick.
link |
00:19:03.440
Your body will shut down for you
link |
00:19:04.760
if you refuse to take care of yourself.
link |
00:19:07.280
You know, you get sick, it's what happens.
link |
00:19:09.760
Sometimes, you know, more severalness
link |
00:19:12.560
than something that just slows you down.
link |
00:19:14.240
So I think taking, like getting sleep,
link |
00:19:17.920
I mean, there've been studies on this that, you know,
link |
00:19:20.920
executives, for example, who get a full night's sleep
link |
00:19:24.080
and stop at a reasonable hour,
link |
00:19:26.000
actually accomplish more, are more productive
link |
00:19:29.600
than people who work and burn the midnight oil
link |
00:19:31.520
because their brains are working better,
link |
00:19:33.440
because they're well rested.
link |
00:19:35.320
So, you know, working hard, yes, but why not work smart?
link |
00:19:39.240
I think that giving our minds and our bodies rest
link |
00:19:45.360
makes us more efficient.
link |
00:19:46.720
I think just driving, driving, driving, driving
link |
00:19:49.200
is a short term strategy.
link |
00:19:52.080
So, but to push back on that a little bit,
link |
00:19:53.960
the annoying thing is you're like 100% right
link |
00:19:57.040
in terms of science, right?
link |
00:19:58.680
But the thing is, it's because you're 100% right,
link |
00:20:02.960
that weak part of your mind uses that fact
link |
00:20:07.560
to convince you, like, so, you know,
link |
00:20:10.160
I get all kinds of, my mind comes up with all kinds
link |
00:20:12.600
of excuses to try to convince me
link |
00:20:14.360
that I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing.
link |
00:20:16.080
To rationalize.
link |
00:20:16.920
To rationalize, and so what I have a sense,
link |
00:20:21.320
I think what you said about executives
link |
00:20:23.080
and leaders is absolutely right,
link |
00:20:25.000
but there's the early days,
link |
00:20:26.880
the early days of madness and passion.
link |
00:20:29.120
For sure.
link |
00:20:29.960
Then I feel like emphasizing sleep,
link |
00:20:33.720
thinking about a sleep is giving yourself a way out
link |
00:20:37.560
from the fact that those early days,
link |
00:20:39.480
especially, it can be suffering.
link |
00:20:42.800
As long, it's not sustainable.
link |
00:20:45.680
You know, right, it's not sustainable.
link |
00:20:47.000
Sure, if you're investing all that energy
link |
00:20:49.040
in something at the beginning to get it up and running,
link |
00:20:52.600
then at some point you're gonna have to slow down,
link |
00:20:55.640
or your body will slow you down for you.
link |
00:20:57.600
Like, you can choose or your body can choose.
link |
00:21:00.000
I mean, so, okay, so you don't think, from my perspective,
link |
00:21:04.840
it feels like people have gotten a little bit soft,
link |
00:21:07.400
but you're saying, no, I think that there seems evidence
link |
00:21:11.160
that working harder and later have taken a backseat.
link |
00:21:21.600
I think we have to be careful with broad generalizations,
link |
00:21:24.680
but I think if you go into the workplace,
link |
00:21:28.160
there are people who would complain that more people
link |
00:21:31.560
now than before, you know, look at their watches
link |
00:21:34.520
and say, oops, five o clock, goodbye, right?
link |
00:21:37.240
Now, is that a problem with the people?
link |
00:21:39.600
You're saying it's the people giving themselves excuses
link |
00:21:41.720
and people who don't work hard,
link |
00:21:43.000
or is it the organizations aren't giving them something
link |
00:21:45.080
to believe in, something to be passionate about?
link |
00:21:46.840
We can't manufacture passion.
link |
00:21:48.160
You can't just tell someone, be passionate.
link |
00:21:51.080
You know, that's not how it works.
link |
00:21:52.400
Passion's an output, not an input.
link |
00:21:55.440
Like, if I believe in something and I wanna contribute
link |
00:21:57.600
all that energy to do it, we call that passion.
link |
00:22:00.280
You know, working hard for something we love is passion.
link |
00:22:02.360
Working hard for something we don't care about
link |
00:22:04.200
is called stress, but we're working hard either way.
link |
00:22:07.800
So I think the organizations bear some accountability
link |
00:22:10.440
and our leaders bear some accountability,
link |
00:22:11.720
which is if they're not offering a sense of purpose,
link |
00:22:13.640
if they're not offering us a sense of cause,
link |
00:22:15.520
if they're not telling us that our work is worth more
link |
00:22:17.680
than simply the money it makes,
link |
00:22:19.800
then yeah, I'm gonna come at five o clock
link |
00:22:21.160
because I don't really care about making you money.
link |
00:22:23.200
Remember, we live in a world right now
link |
00:22:24.600
where a lot of people, rather a few people,
link |
00:22:26.960
are getting rich on the hard work of others.
link |
00:22:29.720
And so I think when people look up and say,
link |
00:22:33.000
well, why would I do that?
link |
00:22:34.640
I'll just, if you're not gonna look after me,
link |
00:22:36.600
and then you're gonna lay me off at the end of the year
link |
00:22:38.160
because you missed your arbitrary projections,
link |
00:22:40.440
you know, you're gonna lay me off
link |
00:22:41.720
because you missed your arbitrary projections,
link |
00:22:43.960
then why would I offer my hard work and loyalty to you?
link |
00:22:47.440
So I don't think we can immediately blame people
link |
00:22:50.760
for going soft.
link |
00:22:51.960
I think we can blame leaders
link |
00:22:54.960
for their inability or failure to offer their people
link |
00:22:58.760
something bigger than making a product or making money.
link |
00:23:02.720
Yeah, so that's brilliant.
link |
00:23:04.360
And start with why leaders eat last, your books,
link |
00:23:07.960
you kind of, you basically talk about
link |
00:23:10.880
what it takes to be a good leader.
link |
00:23:14.000
And so some of the blame should go on the leader,
link |
00:23:15.720
but how much of it is on finding your passion,
link |
00:23:19.880
how much is it on the individual?
link |
00:23:21.880
And allowing yourself to pursue that passion,
link |
00:23:24.760
pushing yourself to your limits to really take
link |
00:23:28.960
concrete steps along your path towards that passion.
link |
00:23:33.240
Yeah, there's mutual responsibility,
link |
00:23:34.640
there's mutual accountability.
link |
00:23:35.560
I mean, we're responsible as individuals to find
link |
00:23:38.680
the organizations and find the leaders that inspire us.
link |
00:23:41.240
And organizations are responsible for maintaining that flame
link |
00:23:44.000
and giving people who believe what they believed,
link |
00:23:48.000
you know, a chance to contribute.
link |
00:23:49.800
So to linger on it, have you by chance
link |
00:23:52.600
seen the movie Whiplash?
link |
00:23:54.080
Yes.
link |
00:23:56.520
Again, maybe I'm romanticizing suffering.
link |
00:23:59.400
Again. It's the Russian in you.
link |
00:24:00.440
It's the Russian.
link |
00:24:01.280
Yeah, the Russians love suffering.
link |
00:24:03.400
But for people who haven't seen,
link |
00:24:07.080
it's the movie Whiplash as a drum instructor
link |
00:24:10.920
that pushes the drum musician to his limits
link |
00:24:16.600
to bring out the best in him.
link |
00:24:18.720
And there's a toxic nature to it.
link |
00:24:20.600
There's suffering in it.
link |
00:24:21.840
Like you've worked a lot of great leaders,
link |
00:24:24.360
a lot of great individuals.
link |
00:24:25.520
So is that toxic relationship as toxic
link |
00:24:29.440
as it appears in the movie?
link |
00:24:30.520
Or is that fundamental?
link |
00:24:31.480
I've seen that relationship,
link |
00:24:33.680
especially in the past with Olympic athletes,
link |
00:24:35.800
with especially in athletics, extreme performers,
link |
00:24:39.840
seem to do wonders.
link |
00:24:40.960
It does wonders for me.
link |
00:24:42.120
There's some of my best relationships,
link |
00:24:44.960
now I'm not representative of everyone certainly,
link |
00:24:47.720
but some of my best relationships for mentee
link |
00:24:50.080
and mentor have been toxic from an external perspective.
link |
00:24:56.440
What do you make of that movie?
link |
00:24:57.720
What do you make of that kind of relationship?
link |
00:25:00.600
That's not my favorite movie.
link |
00:25:04.120
Okay, so you don't think that's a healthy,
link |
00:25:06.960
you don't think that kind of relationship
link |
00:25:08.640
is a great example of a great leader?
link |
00:25:11.920
I think it's a short term strategy.
link |
00:25:13.040
I mean, short term.
link |
00:25:13.880
I mean, look, being hard on someone
link |
00:25:15.440
is not the same as toxicity.
link |
00:25:16.880
You know, if you go to the Marine Corps,
link |
00:25:22.000
a drill instructor will be very hard on their Marines.
link |
00:25:26.160
And then, but still, even on the last day of boot camp,
link |
00:25:29.520
they'll take their hat off and they'll become a human.
link |
00:25:32.040
But the, of all the drill instructors,
link |
00:25:34.840
you know, the three or four main drill instructors
link |
00:25:38.800
assigned to a group of recruits,
link |
00:25:40.520
the one that they all want the respect of
link |
00:25:42.160
is the one that's the hardest on them.
link |
00:25:44.120
That's true.
link |
00:25:45.880
And you hear, you know, there's plenty of stories
link |
00:25:48.400
of people who want to earn the respect of a hard parent
link |
00:25:50.960
or a hard teacher.
link |
00:25:53.120
But fundamental, that parent, that teacher,
link |
00:25:55.080
that drill instructor has to believe in that person.
link |
00:25:57.360
It has to see potential of them.
link |
00:25:58.640
It's not a formula, which is if I'm hard on people,
link |
00:26:01.000
they'll do well, which is there has to still be love.
link |
00:26:04.120
It has to be done with absolute love
link |
00:26:06.040
and it has to be done responsibly.
link |
00:26:09.000
I mean, some people can take a little more pressure
link |
00:26:10.560
than others, but it's not, I don't,
link |
00:26:12.840
I think it's irresponsible to think of it as a formula
link |
00:26:15.720
that if I'm just toxic at people, they will do well.
link |
00:26:20.480
It depends on their personalities.
link |
00:26:21.840
First of all, that works for some, but not all.
link |
00:26:23.920
And second of all, it can't be done willy nilly.
link |
00:26:27.560
It has to still be done with care and love.
link |
00:26:30.000
And sometimes you can get equal or better results
link |
00:26:36.240
without all of the toxicity.
link |
00:26:37.720
So one of the, I guess toxicity on my part
link |
00:26:41.920
was a really bad word to use,
link |
00:26:43.560
but if we talk about what makes a good leader
link |
00:26:46.440
and just look at an example in particular,
link |
00:26:49.680
looking at Elon Musk,
link |
00:26:51.240
he's known to push people to the limits
link |
00:26:55.640
in a way that I think really challenges people
link |
00:27:01.360
in a way that they've never been challenged before
link |
00:27:03.040
to do the impossible, but it can really break people.
link |
00:27:07.280
And jobs was hard and Amazon is hard.
link |
00:27:10.240
And, you know, but the thing that's important
link |
00:27:12.360
is none of them lie about it.
link |
00:27:14.400
You know, people ask me about Amazon all the time.
link |
00:27:16.400
Like Jeff Bezos never lied about it.
link |
00:27:18.400
You know, even the ones who like Amazon
link |
00:27:20.040
don't last more than a couple of years
link |
00:27:21.640
before they burn out.
link |
00:27:23.920
But when we're honest about the culture,
link |
00:27:25.320
then it gives people the opportunity
link |
00:27:26.640
who like to work in that kind of culture,
link |
00:27:28.080
to choose to work in that kind of culture,
link |
00:27:29.920
as opposed to pretending and saying,
link |
00:27:31.360
oh no, this is all, you know, it's all lovey lovey here.
link |
00:27:34.520
And then you show up and it's the furthest thing from it.
link |
00:27:37.280
So, I mean, I think the reputations
link |
00:27:41.400
of putting a lot of pressure on people to, you know,
link |
00:27:44.080
Jobs was not an easy man to work for.
link |
00:27:48.800
He pushed people, but everyone who worked there
link |
00:27:50.960
was given the space to create and do things
link |
00:27:53.000
that they would not have been able to do anywhere else
link |
00:27:54.800
and work at a level that they didn't work anywhere else.
link |
00:27:56.960
And Jobs didn't have all the answers.
link |
00:27:58.760
I mean, he pushed his people to come up with answers.
link |
00:28:02.160
He wasn't just looking for people to execute his ideas.
link |
00:28:07.480
And people did.
link |
00:28:08.480
People accomplished more than they thought
link |
00:28:09.720
they were capable of, which is wonderful.
link |
00:28:12.320
How do you, you're talking about the infinite game
link |
00:28:16.560
and not thinking about too short term.
link |
00:28:19.840
And yet you see some of the most brilliant people
link |
00:28:22.840
in the world being pushed by Elon Musk
link |
00:28:24.760
to accomplish some of the most incredible things.
link |
00:28:27.080
When we're talking about autopilot,
link |
00:28:28.640
when we're talking about some of the hardware engineering,
link |
00:28:32.000
and they do some of the best work of their life.
link |
00:28:35.120
And then leave.
link |
00:28:37.360
How do you balance that in terms of what it takes
link |
00:28:40.280
to be a good leader,
link |
00:28:41.680
what it takes to accomplish great things in your life?
link |
00:28:44.280
Yeah, so I think there's a difference between
link |
00:28:48.480
someone who can get a lot out of people in the short term
link |
00:28:52.640
and building an organization that can sustain
link |
00:28:54.360
beyond any individual.
link |
00:28:57.200
There's a difference.
link |
00:28:58.040
When you say beyond any individual,
link |
00:28:59.440
you mean beyond like if the leader dies.
link |
00:29:03.040
Correct, like could Tesla continue to do
link |
00:29:05.120
what it's doing without Elon Musk?
link |
00:29:07.480
And you're perhaps implying,
link |
00:29:10.680
which is a very interesting question that he cannot.
link |
00:29:13.640
I don't know.
link |
00:29:15.280
The argument you're making of this person
link |
00:29:18.480
who pushes everyone arguably is not a repeatable model, right?
link |
00:29:23.520
Is Apple the same without Steve Jobs,
link |
00:29:25.760
or is it slowly moving in a different direction?
link |
00:29:29.840
Or has he established something
link |
00:29:31.040
that could be resurrected with the right leader?
link |
00:29:34.040
That was his dream, I think,
link |
00:29:35.680
is to build an organization that lives on beyond them.
link |
00:29:39.920
At least I remember reading that somewhere.
link |
00:29:40.960
I think that's what a lot of leaders desire,
link |
00:29:44.320
which is to create something that was bigger than them.
link |
00:29:47.720
Most businesses, most entrepreneurial ventures
link |
00:29:51.480
could not pass the school bus test,
link |
00:29:54.920
which is if the founder was hit by a school bus,
link |
00:29:57.160
would everyone continue the business without them
link |
00:29:58.840
or would they all just go find jobs?
link |
00:30:01.160
And the vast majority of companies would fail that test,
link |
00:30:06.600
especially in the entrepreneurial world,
link |
00:30:08.320
that if you take the inspired visionary leader away,
link |
00:30:11.040
the whole thing collapses.
link |
00:30:12.400
So is that a business or is that just a force of personality?
link |
00:30:15.920
And a lot of entrepreneurs face that reality,
link |
00:30:19.320
which is they have to be in every meeting,
link |
00:30:20.600
make every decision, come up with every idea,
link |
00:30:24.120
because if they don't, who will?
link |
00:30:25.880
And the question is, well,
link |
00:30:27.440
what have you done to build your bench?
link |
00:30:29.240
Is it, it's not, sometimes it's ego,
link |
00:30:33.440
the belief that only I can.
link |
00:30:35.480
Sometimes it's just things got,
link |
00:30:39.720
did so well for so long that just forgot.
link |
00:30:43.640
And sometimes it's a failure to build the training programs
link |
00:30:49.840
or hire the right people that could replace you,
link |
00:30:53.800
who are maybe smarter and better.
link |
00:30:56.120
And brow beating people is only one strategy.
link |
00:31:01.520
I don't think it's necessarily the only strategy,
link |
00:31:03.480
nor is it always the best strategy.
link |
00:31:05.080
I think people,
link |
00:31:05.920
people get to choose the cultures they want to work in.
link |
00:31:07.800
So this is why I think,
link |
00:31:09.320
I think companies should be honest
link |
00:31:12.880
about the kind of culture that they've created.
link |
00:31:16.120
You know, I heard a story about Apple
link |
00:31:18.120
where somebody came in from a big company,
link |
00:31:20.640
you know, he'd accomplished a lot and his ego was very large
link |
00:31:26.240
and he was going on about how he did this and he did that
link |
00:31:28.440
and he did this and he did that.
link |
00:31:30.480
And somebody from Apple said,
link |
00:31:32.360
we don't care what you've done.
link |
00:31:34.640
The question is, what are you gonna do?
link |
00:31:37.360
And that's, you know, for somebody who wants to be pushed,
link |
00:31:42.040
that's the place you go, because you choose to be pushed.
link |
00:31:46.280
Now, we all want to be pushed to some degree,
link |
00:31:48.080
you know, anybody who wants to, you know, accomplish anything
link |
00:31:51.000
in this world wants to be pushed to some degree,
link |
00:31:52.600
whether it's through self pressure or external pressure
link |
00:31:55.880
or, you know, public pressure, whatever it is.
link |
00:32:00.520
But I think this whole idea of one size fits all
link |
00:32:03.600
is a false narrative of how leadership works,
link |
00:32:06.400
but what all leadership requires is creating an environment
link |
00:32:09.200
in which people can work at their natural best.
link |
00:32:11.160
But you have a sense that it's possible to create a business
link |
00:32:15.040
where it lives on beyond you.
link |
00:32:18.360
So if we look at now, if we just look at this current moment,
link |
00:32:22.360
I just recently talked to Jack Doris, the CEO of Twitter,
link |
00:32:25.680
and he's under a lot of pressure now.
link |
00:32:27.320
I don't know if you're aware of the news
link |
00:32:28.760
that he's being pushed out as a potential as the CEO
link |
00:32:31.640
of Twitter, because he's the CEO already
link |
00:32:33.720
of an incredibly successful company.
link |
00:32:35.800
Plus he wants to go to Africa to live a few months
link |
00:32:38.640
in Africa to connect with the world
link |
00:32:41.720
that's outside of the Silicon Valley
link |
00:32:43.920
and sort of there's this idea
link |
00:32:45.840
while can Twitter live without Jack?
link |
00:32:48.480
We'll find out.
link |
00:32:50.320
But you have a general as a student of great leadership.
link |
00:32:55.720
You have a general sense that it's possible.
link |
00:32:57.600
Yeah, of course it's possible.
link |
00:32:58.640
I mean, what Bill Gates built with Microsoft
link |
00:33:02.920
may not have survived Steve Ballmer
link |
00:33:05.280
if the company weren't so rich,
link |
00:33:07.560
but Sachin Ardala is putting it back on track again.
link |
00:33:12.240
It's become a visionary company again.
link |
00:33:13.800
It's attracting great talent again.
link |
00:33:15.000
It went through a period where they couldn't get
link |
00:33:16.920
the best talent and the best talent was leaving.
link |
00:33:18.760
Now people want to work for Microsoft again.
link |
00:33:20.560
Well, that's not because of pressure.
link |
00:33:22.760
Ballmer put more pressure on people,
link |
00:33:25.200
mainly to hit numbers than anything else.
link |
00:33:27.800
That didn't work.
link |
00:33:29.600
Yes, right?
link |
00:33:31.320
And so the question is,
link |
00:33:32.160
what kind of pressure are we putting on people?
link |
00:33:33.400
We're putting on pressure people to hit numbers
link |
00:33:35.680
or hit arbitrary deadlines,
link |
00:33:38.240
or we're putting on pressure on people
link |
00:33:39.520
because we believe that they can do better work.
link |
00:33:41.960
And the work that we're trying to do
link |
00:33:44.440
is to advance a vision that's bigger than all of us.
link |
00:33:46.640
And if you're going to put pressure on people,
link |
00:33:47.960
it better be for the right reason.
link |
00:33:49.760
Like if you're going to put pressure on me,
link |
00:33:51.000
it better be for a worthwhile reason.
link |
00:33:52.560
If it's just to hit a goal,
link |
00:33:54.360
if it's just to hit some arbitrary date
link |
00:33:56.000
or some arbitrary number or make a stock price,
link |
00:33:58.160
hit some target, you can keep it.
link |
00:33:59.800
I'm out of here.
link |
00:34:01.120
But if you want to put pressure on me
link |
00:34:02.160
because we are brothers and sisters in arms,
link |
00:34:07.000
working to advance a cause bigger than ourselves,
link |
00:34:09.080
that we believe whatever we're going to build
link |
00:34:10.720
will significantly contribute
link |
00:34:12.360
to the greater good of society,
link |
00:34:14.160
then go ahead, I'll take the pressure.
link |
00:34:16.240
And if you look at the apples
link |
00:34:17.360
and if you look at the Elon Musk's,
link |
00:34:22.880
you know, the jobs in the Elon Musk,
link |
00:34:24.120
they fundamentally believe
link |
00:34:25.440
that what they were doing would improve society
link |
00:34:27.520
and it was for the good of humankind.
link |
00:34:31.160
And so the pressure, in other words,
link |
00:34:33.760
what they were doing was more important,
link |
00:34:36.080
more valuable than any individual on the team.
link |
00:34:38.320
And so the pressure they put on people
link |
00:34:41.200
served a greater good.
link |
00:34:42.960
And so we looked to the left
link |
00:34:45.680
and we looked to the right, to each other
link |
00:34:47.000
and said, we're in this together.
link |
00:34:49.120
We accept this, we want this.
link |
00:34:51.600
But if it's just pressure to hit a number
link |
00:34:54.840
or, you know, make the widget move a little faster,
link |
00:35:01.280
that's soul sucking.
link |
00:35:03.560
That's not passion, that's stress.
link |
00:35:06.600
And I think a lot of leaders confuse
link |
00:35:11.200
that making people work hard
link |
00:35:12.320
is not what makes them passionate.
link |
00:35:15.120
Giving to them something to believe in
link |
00:35:17.600
and work on is what drives passion.
link |
00:35:20.920
And when you have that, then turning up the pressure
link |
00:35:23.160
only brings people together, drives them farther.
link |
00:35:27.240
If done the right way.
link |
00:35:28.920
If done the right way.
link |
00:35:30.840
Speaking of pressure, I'm gonna give you 90 seconds
link |
00:35:35.200
to answer the last question,
link |
00:35:37.080
which is if I told you that tomorrow
link |
00:35:39.480
was your last day to live, you talked about mortality,
link |
00:35:42.960
sunrise to sunset, can you tell me,
link |
00:35:45.360
can you take me through the day?
link |
00:35:46.400
What do you think that day would involve?
link |
00:35:48.560
You can't spend it with your family, I told you as well.
link |
00:35:52.160
I would probably want to fill all of my senses
link |
00:35:55.040
with things that excite my senses.
link |
00:35:59.200
I'd want to look at beautiful art.
link |
00:36:00.520
I'd want to listen to beautiful music.
link |
00:36:02.960
I'd want to taste incredible food.
link |
00:36:05.000
I'd want to smell amazing tastes.
link |
00:36:06.960
I'd want to touch something that's beautiful to touch.
link |
00:36:14.200
I'd want all of my senses to just be consumed
link |
00:36:19.280
with things that I find beautiful.
link |
00:36:21.160
And you talked about this idea of
link |
00:36:23.320
we don't do it often these days of just listening to music,
link |
00:36:26.120
turning off all the devices and actually taking in
link |
00:36:28.680
and listening to music.
link |
00:36:29.880
So as a addendum, if we're to talk about music,
link |
00:36:34.560
what song would you be blasting in this last day of your life?
link |
00:36:38.160
Is it Led Zeppelin?
link |
00:36:39.120
What did we talk about?
link |
00:36:39.960
I hope that I love.
link |
00:36:40.800
No, no.
link |
00:36:41.640
There's probably going to be a Beatles song in there.
link |
00:36:43.000
There'll definitely be some Beethoven in there.
link |
00:36:46.600
The Classics.
link |
00:36:47.440
The Classics.
link |
00:36:48.280
Yeah, exactly.
link |
00:36:50.600
Thank you so much for talking to us.
link |
00:36:51.880
Thank you for making time for it.
link |
00:36:53.600
Under pressure, we made it happen.
link |
00:36:55.120
Yeah, it was great.
link |
00:36:56.840
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Simon Sinek.
link |
00:36:59.720
And thank you to our sponsors,
link |
00:37:01.360
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link |
00:37:03.640
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link |
00:37:05.360
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00:37:09.040
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link |
00:37:14.600
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link |
00:37:15.920
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link |
00:37:17.240
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link |
00:37:19.760
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link |
00:37:21.040
or simply connect with me on Twitter at lexfreedmen.
link |
00:37:25.360
And now let me leave you with some words from Simon Sinek.
link |
00:37:29.040
There are only two ways to influence human behavior.
link |
00:37:32.280
You can manipulate it or you can inspire it.
link |
00:37:37.080
Thank you for listening.
link |
00:37:38.240
I hope to see you next time.