back to indexManolis Kellis: Origin of Life, Humans, Ideas, Suffering, and Happiness | Lex Fridman Podcast #123
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The following is a conversation with Manolis Kellis, his second time in the podcast.
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He's a professor at MIT and head of the MIT Computational Biology Group. He's one of the
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most brilliant, productive, and kind people I've had the fortune of talking to. A lot of my colleagues
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at MIT and former MIT faculty and students wrote to me after our first conversation with some version
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of, Manolis is awesome, isn't he? I'm glad you guys are now friends. I am too, and I'm happy that
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he makes time in his insanely busy schedule to sit down and have a chat with me. Quick summary
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of the sponsors, Public Goods, Magic Spoon, and ExpressVPN. Please check out these sponsors in
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the description to get a discount and to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that I
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just got back from talking to Joe Rogan on his podcast my fifth time on there. I also got a chance
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to record a separate conversation with Joe on this podcast. We talked on both quite a bit about his
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journey and his advice for mine. One of the things that I think made his show special is that he just
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had fun and made choices that didn't get in the way of him having fun and loving life. I'm learning
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to do just that. It's tough since I'm naturally full of self doubt and anxiety, but I'm learning to
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let go and have fun. Even if my monotone robotic voice sometimes sounds otherwise. For Joe, that
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involved talking to his friends, comedians, especially ones that brought out the best in him.
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Duncan Trussell in the five hour first episode on Spotify comes to mind is an example of that.
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Duncan has been a guest probably close to if not more than 50 times on Joe's podcast. My hope
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with amazing people like Minolis is to find my Duncan Trussell, my Joey Diaz, and yes, even my
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Eddie Bravo. Obviously Joe and I are very different people, but ultimately both love life when we can
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interact often with people we love and who inspire us. Make us smile, make us think, and make us have
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fun when we get behind the mic of a podcast, whether anyone is listening or not. If you enjoy
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please do check out the sponsors by clicking the links in the description. It's the best way,
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honestly, to support this podcast. This show is sponsored by Public Goods, an online store for basic
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low carb, keto friendly cereal. You might have heard on other videos that I eat keto mostly
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crazy diet. Also, they're a sponsor of episode 100 with my dad and got my dad to buy the cereal
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and he now loves it. Honestly, just loves it. It's kind of funny, actually, the deep heartfelt
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nature of that conversation and the silliness of the cereal captures my dad perfectly. Much of the
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Mine is too. He hasn't bought the eight sleep mattress yet, though my mom wants to,
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but he's all about this magic spoon cereal. I think it's his actually favorite sponsor of this
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podcast, probably because they chose to sponsor the episode he's on. Anyway, click the magic spoon
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dot com slash Lex link in the description and use code Lex at checkout for free shipping to let them
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know I sent you and also indirectly to make my dad happy. This show is also sponsored by ExpressVPN.
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Get it at expressvpn.com slash Lex pod. They gave me a suggested opening line of using the internet
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By way of life advice, let me tell you that you need a VPN to protect you from Russians like me.
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In fact, this podcast is a kind of hack of your biological network where I use my monotone,
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ever do shady things on the internet, which of course I never do and never will. So secure your
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online activity by going to expressvpn.com slash Lex pod to get an extra three months free and to
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support this podcast. And now here's my conversation with Manolis Kellis. What is beautiful about the
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human epigenome? Don't get me started. So first of all, as an engineering feat, the human epigenome
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manages the most compact, the most incredible compaction you could imagine. So every single one
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of your cells contains two meters worth of DNA. And this is compacted in a radius which is one
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thousandth of a millimeter. That's six orders of magnitude. To give you a sense of scale,
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it's as if a string as tall as the Burj Al Khalifa, which is about a kilometer tall,
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was compacted into a tiny little ball the size of a millimeter.
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And if you put it all together, if you stretch the trillions of cells that we have, we have about
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30 trillion cells in your body. If you stretch the DNA, the two meters worth of DNA in every
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one of your trillion cells, you would basically reach all the way to Jupiter
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a hundred times. Yeah, it's all curled up in there. It's 30 trillion cells.
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30 trillion cells. Every one of them two meters worth of DNA. So all of that is compacted through
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the epigenome. The epigenome basically has the ability to compact this massive amount of DNA
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from here to Jupiter 10 times into one human body, into just the nuclei of one human body,
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and the vast majority of human bodies not even need these nuclei. And that's sort of the structural
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part. So that's the boring part. That's the structural part. The functional part is way
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more interesting. So functionally, what the human epigenome allows you to do is basically control
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the activity patterns of thousands of genes. So 20,000 genes in your human body, every one of
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your cells only needs a few thousand of those, but a different few thousand of those. And the
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way that your cells remember what their identity is, is basically driven by the epigenome. So the
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epigenome is both structural instead of making this dramatic compaction. And it's also functional
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in being able to actually control the activity patterns of all your cells.
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Now, can we draw a definition distinction between the genome and the epigenome?
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Again, being Greek, epi means on top of. So the genome is the DNA. And the epigenome is
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anything on top of the DNA. And there's, you know, three types of things on top of the DNA.
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The first is chemical modifications on the DNA itself. So we like to think of four bases of
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the DNA, ACGT. C has a methyl form, which is sometimes referred to as the fifth base. So methyl
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C takes a different meaning. So in the same way that you have annotations in an orchestra score
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that basically say whether you should play something softly or loudly or space it out or,
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you know, interpret basically the score, the human epigenome allows you to modify that primary score.
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So a modified C basically says, play this one softly. It's basically a sign of repression
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in a gene regulatory region. I love how you're talking about the function that emerges from the
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epigenome as a musical score. It is in many ways. And every single cell plays a different part of
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that score. It's like having all of human knowledge in 23 volumes, like 23 giant books,
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which are your chromosomes. And every single cell has a different profession, a different role.
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Some cells play the piano, and they're looking at chapters seven from chromosome 23 and chapters
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four from chromosome two and so on and so forth. And each of those pieces are all encoding
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in the same DNA. But what the epigenome allows you to do is effectively conduct the orchestra
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and sort of coordinate the pieces so that every instrument plays only the things that it needs
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to play. One thing that kind of blows my mind, maybe you can tell me your thoughts about it is
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the way evolution works with natural selection is based on the final sort of the entirety of the
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orchestra musical performance, right? And then but there's these incredibly rich structural things,
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like each one of them doing their own little job that somehow work to get like the evolution
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selects based on the final result. And yet all the individual pieces are doing like infinitely
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minuscule specific things. How the heck does that work? It's a very good insight. And you can even
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go beyond that and basically say evolution doesn't select at the level of an organism,
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it actually selects at the level of whole environments, whole ecosystems. So let me
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break this down. So you basically have at the very bottom, every single nucleotide being selected.
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But then that nucleotide function is selected at the level of, you know, each gene. And every,
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not even each gene, each gene regulatory control element. And then those control elements are
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basically converging onto the function of the gene. And many genes are converging onto the
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function of one cell. And many cells are converging into the function of one tissue or organ. And
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all of these organs are converging onto the level of an organism. But now that organism is not in
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isolation. So if you basically think about why is altruism, for example, a thing? Why are people
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being nice to each other? It was probably selected. And it was probably selected because
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those species that were just nasty to each other didn't survive as a species. And now if you think
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about symbiosis of, you know, there's plants, for example, that love CO2. And there's humans that
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love O2. And we're sort of, you know, trading different types of gases to each other. If you
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look at ecosystems, where one organism was just really nasty, that organism actually died. Because
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everyone they were being nasty to was killed off. And then that kind of, you know, universe of life
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is gone. So basically what emerges is selection at so many different layers of benefit,
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including, you know, all of these nucleotides within a body,
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interacting for the emergent functions at the body level.
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Yeah, I wonder if it's possible to break it down into levels that's selection,
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even beyond humans, like you said, environment, but there's environments at all different levels too,
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right? At the minuscule, at the organ level, at the tissue level, like you said,
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maybe at the microscopic level. It'd be fascinating if like, there's a kind of selection going on,
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like both the quantum level and like the galaxy level. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So all different forms.
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Yeah, let's again, sort of break down these different layers. So basically, if you think
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about the environment in which a gene operates, that gene, of course, the first definition of
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environment that we think of is pollution or sunlight or heat or cold and so on and so forth.
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That's the external environment. But every gene also operates at the level of the internal cellular
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environment that it's in. If I take a gene from, say, an African individual, and I put it in a
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European context, will it perform the same way? Probably not, because there's a cellular context
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of thousands of other genes that that gene has co evolved with, you know, in the out of Africa event
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and, you know, all of this sort of human history of evolution. So basically, if you look at neanderthal
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genes, for example, which again happened long after that out of Africa event, there's incompatibilities
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between neanderthal genes and modern human genes that can lead to diseases. So in the context of
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the neanderthal genome, that gene version, that allele was fine. But in the context of the modern
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human genome, that neanderthal gene version is actually detrimental. So it's, you know, that
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cellular environment constitutes the genetics of that gene, but also, of course, all of the epigenomics
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of that gene. It's fascinating that the gene has a history. I mean, we talked about this a little
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bit last time, but just and then some of your research goes into that. But the genes as they are
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today have have a story from the beginning of time. And then sometimes their story was like
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their path was useful for survival for the particular organisms and sometimes not.
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That's fascinating. Let me ask, as a tangent, we kind of started talking offline about neanderthals.
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Do you have something interesting genetically, biologically, in terms of difference between
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neanderthal and like the different branches of human evolution that you find fascinating?
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Neanderthals are only one of about five branches that we are pretty confident about.
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One branch of out of Africa events. So basically, there's neanderthals. There's
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denisovans. What is the evidence for denisovans? One tiny little fragment of one pinky from one cave
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in Siberia. Recent, relatively recently discovered, right? Less than 10 years ago.
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Yeah. And those are like little folks, right? No, no, no, no. That's yet another one,
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though. Homo fluorescence. It had the little folks in sort of Indonesia. But then
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denisovans are basically another branch that we only know about genetically from that one bone
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and eventually we realize that it's one of the three major branches, along with neanderthal,
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modern human, and denisovan. And then that one branch has now resurfaced in many different areas,
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and we kind of know about the gene flow that happened in between them. So when I was reading
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my Greek mythology, it was talking about the age of the heroes, these eras of human like precursors
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that were wiped out by Zeus or by all kinds of wars and so on and so forth,
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like the Titans and the, you know, it's ridiculous to sort of read these stories as a kid because
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you're like, oh yeah, whatever. And then you're growing up and you're like, whoa, layers and layers
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of human like ancestors. And who knows if those stories were inspired by bones that they found
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that kind of looked human like, but were not quite human like? Who knows if stories of dragons
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were inspired by bones of dinosaurs? Basically, this archaeological evidence has been there
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and has probably entered the folk imagination, migrated into their stories, but it's not that far
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removed from what actually happened of massive wars of wiping out neanderthals as modern humans
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are populating Europe. Do you think we'll kill the neanderthals and all those other branches
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is human conflict or is it genetic conflict? So is it us humans being the opposite of altruistic
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towards each other? Or is it some other competition at some other level, like as we're discussing?
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Yeah, so if you look at a lot of human traits today, they're probably not that far removed
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from the human traits that got us where we are now. So, you know, this whole tribalism,
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you know, you're my sports team or you're my political party or you're my tiny little village
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and therefore, you know, if you're from that other village, I hate you, but as soon as we're both
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in the major city, I can't believe we're from the same region, my friend, come here, my family.
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And like two neighboring countries fighting and as soon as they're off in another country,
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you're like, oh, I can't believe that. So it's kind of funny, like this tribalism
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is nonsensical in many ways. It's like cognitive incongruent that basically we like kin and
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selection for sort of liking kin is hugely advantageous genetically.
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Probably across all kinds of organ, across all kinds of life.
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Yeah. So basically, if you now transport that to the sort of humans arriving in Europe and
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Neanderthals are everywhere, what are you going to do? You're going to kill them off.
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You know, there's this battle for territory and this battle for they're not like us. We have to
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get rid of them. So basically, there's a, you know, very interesting mix there. But and yet,
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and yet when you look at the genetics, there's tons of gene flow between them.
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So basically, you know, love romance between, you know, new tribes, but love spans the gap
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between the different tribes. It's Romeo and Juliet across species boundaries.
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Sneaks away from the village to hang out with the geniuses.
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Even before the out of Africa, there's, you know, within Africa selection,
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which was probably massive battles of larger and larger tribes selecting for our social
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networking and savviness and, you know, probably all our conspiracy theory genes are, you know,
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dating back from then. And, you know, so there's a lot of this mischievousness in the history of
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human evolution that unfortunately is still present in, you know, many ugly forms today,
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but probably contributed to our success as a species in wiping out other species.
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It just sucks that we don't have neighboring species that are, you know, intelligent like us,
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that but yet very different than us. So we have like, you know, dogs or wolves, I guess, co evolved.
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They figured out how to neighbor up with humans in a friendly way and collaborate,
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and it developed in time. You're describing this as if the wolves made a choice.
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It's possible that the wolves never had a say that basically humans were just so
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overpowering that they had captive wolves. And then at every generation killed off eight of the
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nine pups and only kept the one that was milder. And it only takes a few generations to then sort
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of have pups that are really mild. And so the Neanderthals weren't useful
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in the same way that wolves were. I don't know if it's a question of useful. They were probably
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super useful. My thinking is that they were scary, that basically something that almost
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resembles you is something that you try to eliminate first. It's too close. Yeah. And speaking of,
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you know, species that are intelligent and sort of what's left of evolution. It is a shame exactly
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like you say that so many different amazing life forms were extinct. And the kind of boring ones
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remained. So if you look at dinosaurs, I mean, the diversity that they had, if you look at sub,
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you know, like, there's just so many different lineages of life that were just abruptly killed.
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And yet out of that death emerged, you know, many new kinds of really awesome lineages.
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Do you think there was in the history of life on earth species that may be still alive today
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that are more intelligent than humans? And we just don't know.
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So there's basically made for dolphins. Like if you look at their brains, if you look at the way
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that they play, if you look at the way that they learn, you know, I mean, they don't have
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a possible thumbs and we do. So, you know, that probably made a big difference.
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It's terrifying to think that like, not terrifying, I don't know how to feel about it,
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that they're more intelligent than us. It's like the hikers got.
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I know. But how do you define intelligence? Basically, like I was saying last time, you know,
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stupid is a stupid does and smart is a smart does. So if the dolphins are basically super
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smart, figure out the meaning of life and just go around playing with water all day,
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which is probably the meaning of life, then we wouldn't know because all they're doing is kicking
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water just like sharks are and sharks are probably pretty stupid. So, so basically,
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it's very difficult to sort of judge a species intelligence unless they kind of go out of the
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way to demonstrate it. Yeah. And that's instructive for our understanding of any kind of life form.
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You know, I've recently talked to Sarah Seeger looking for life out there on other planets.
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It'd be fascinating to think if we discover a habitable planet outside of Earth in one day,
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maybe many centuries away, or be able to travel with like a robot there, how would we actually know
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that this species would probably be able to detect that it's a living being,
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but how would we know if it's an intelligent being? I mean, it's both exciting and terrifying to sort
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of come face to face with a life form that's of another world. Like something that clearly is
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moving in a, how would you say, like a deliberate way and to then like ask, well, how do I ask that
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thing? Whether it's intelligent? No, but the question that you're asking is applicable to
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every species on the Earth now. Yeah. So basically, dolphins are a great example. We know that they're
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clearly capable hardware wise and behavior wise of intelligence. How do we communicate? So basically,
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if your question is about crossing species boundaries of communication,
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the way that I want to put it is that humans have achieved a level of sophistication
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in our behaviors, in our communication, in our language, in our ways of expressing ourselves,
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that I have no doubt that if we encounter the human like form of intelligence,
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we'd figure out their language in a few weeks. Like it'd be just fine. As long as, you know,
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of course, they're both trusting each other and not annihilating each other and not sort of
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fearing each other and attacking each other. What about, let me ask, just out of curiosity,
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into science fiction land a little bit. So clearly, you're one of the top scientists in the world. So
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if we were to discover an alien life form, you would be brought in to study his genetics.
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Do you think the epigenome that we talked about, the genome, the code, the digital code that
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underlies that alien life form would be similar to ours? Like in fundamental ways, maybe not
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exactly, but in fundamental ways of how it's structured? Yeah. So you're getting to the
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very definition of life. You're getting to the very definition of what makes life life and
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how do we decode that life? And it's so easy to think that every life form would basically have to,
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you know, like oxygen, have to like heat from the sun and rely on sort of being the habitable zone
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of, you know, its solar system and so on and so forth. But I think we have to sort of go beyond
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this sort of, oh, life on another planet must be exactly like life is on Earth. Because of course,
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life on Earth happens to rely on the proximity to the sun and benefit from that amount of energy.
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But we're talking at timescales of human life, where we kind of live, I don't know, between,
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and I'm going to be super white here, we're going to live between six Earth months and,
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you know, 200 Earth months or 200 Earth years. So basically, if you look at the timescale
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that we inhabit on Earth, it is very much dictated by the amount of energy that we receive from the
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sun. If you look at, I don't know, Europa, you know, the smallest, the fourth smallest moon of
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Jupiter, the smallest of the Galilean moons and also the smallest in its distance from Jupiter.
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It has an iron core. It has a rock exterior. It has ice all around it. And it has probably
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massive liquid oceans underneath. And the gravitational pull of Jupiter is probably
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creating all kinds of movement under that ice. How did life evolve on Earth? Yes, sure, life now,
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most of life that we above the surface look at, has to do with exploiting the solar energy
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for, you know, our daily behavior. But that's not the case everywhere on the planet.
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If you look at the bottom of the ocean, there are hydrothermal vents. There's both black smokers
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and white smokers. And they are near these volcanic, you know, ducts that basically
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emanate a massive amount of energy from the core of our planet. What does life need? It needs energy.
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Does it need energy from the sun? It couldn't care less. Does it need energy from, you know,
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the Earth itself? Yeah, possibly. It could use that. And if you look at how did life evolve on,
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you know, on Earth, there are many theories. I mean, a kind of silly theory is that it came
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from outer space. That basically, there's a meteorite out there that sort of landed on Earth and
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it brought with it DNA material. I think it's a little silly because it kind of pushes the buck
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down the road. Basically, the next question is how did it evolve over there? Whereas our planet
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has basically all of the right ingredients, why wouldn't evolve here? So basically, let's kind
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of ignore that one. And now that the two other competing hypotheses are from the outside in
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or from the inside out. What's that mean? From the outside in means from the surface to the bottom
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of the ocean. From the inside out means from the bottom of the ocean to the surface.
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So life on the surface is pretty brutal. Life obviously evolved in the water. And then there
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was an out of water event. But basically, before it exited, it was clearly in the water, which is
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a much nicer and shielded environment. So just to be clear, on the surface, are you referring to
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the surface of the sea or the bottom of the sea? Versus the bottom of the ocean. And you're saying
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life on the surface is harsh. Life outside the water is horrible. It takes huge amounts of
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evolutionary innovations to sustain living outside the water. That's so interesting. Why is that?
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So it's easier to, life is easier in the water. Maybe, see, I'm telling you. We are 70% water.
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No, dolphins went back into the water. Really? Because dolphins are mammoths. Of course.
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Interesting. Well, again, they might be smarter. They went back. They're like, screw this.
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So if you basically think about the fact that we are 70% water, we're basically
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transporting the sea with us outside the sea. If we don't have water for about 24 hours,
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we're dry. And if you look at life under the sea, I mean, I don't know if you're a diver,
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but when you go diving, your brain explodes. Again, when I say the boring life forms is
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what we see all the time, like tetrapods. I mean, what a stupid, boring body plan. Seriously.
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Like, just go diving and you'll see that a tiny little minority of the stuff under the sea,
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under the surface of the sea, is actually tetrapods. It's like snails with all kinds of crazy appendages
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and colors and round things and five way symmetric things and eight way symmetric things,
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all kinds of crazy body plans. And only the tetrapod fish managed to get out. And then they
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gave rise to all the boring plans we kind of see today of basically humans with four limbs,
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birds with four limbs, lizards with four limbs. And it's kind of boring. If you look at, by comparison,
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life underwater is teeming with diversity. So now let's roll back the clock and basically say
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where did life in the ocean come from? From the surface or from the bottom? Exactly. Those two
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options you were mentioning. Exactly. So basically, life on the surface is one option. And then the
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idea there is that there's tides with the moon and the sun sort of causing all this movement.
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And this movement is basically causing nutrients to sort of coalesce and bounce around, etc.
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That's one option. The second option, massive amount of energy from the core of our planet
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that basically exploited leading to these basic ingredients of life forms. And what are these
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basic ingredients? Metabolism, being able to take energy from the environment and put it as part
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of yourself. Metabolism, it basically means transformation again in the Greek. It basically
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means taking stuff from, you know, like nutrients or energy source or anything and then making it
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your own. The second one is compartmentalization. If there's no notion of self, there can't be
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evolution. You have to know where your own boundaries end and where the non self boundaries
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begin. And that's basically the lipid bilayer nowadays, which is extremely simple to form.
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It's basically just a bunch of lipids, and then they eventually just self organize into a membrane.
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So that's a very natural way of forming a self. And then the third component is replication.
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Replication doesn't need to be self replication. It could be A helps make more of B, B helps make
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more of C, and C helps make more of A. Any kind of self reinforcement is what you need to ignite
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the process of evolution. After you've ignited that process, you know, I don't want to say all
link |
hell breaks loose, but all paradise breaks loose. So basically, you then boom, you know, have life
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going. And the moment you have ABC, some kind of thing, looping back onto A, you can make
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modifications, and you can improve. And then you let natural selection work. Is there some
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element of that that's like, like, like some state representation that stores information,
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like, maybe I should say information. Absolutely. Is that a fundamental part of life?
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We like to think of life as the information propagation, which is DNA, the messenger,
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which is RNA, and then the action, which is protein. So basically, DNA, we think is an essential
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part of life. That's where the storage is. And therefore, that early life forms must have had
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some kind of storage medium DNA. If you look at how life actually evolved, DNA was invented much
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later. Proteins were invented later. And RNA was fine by itself. Thank you very much in an RNA world.
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So the early version of life, as we know it today, was in fact, RNA molecules performing
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all of the functions. The RNA molecule itself was the protein actuator by creating three
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dimensional folds through self hybridization. Self what? Self hybridization. So basically,
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the same way that DNA molecules can hybridize with themselves, and basically form this double
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helix. The single stranded RNA molecule can form partial double helices in various places,
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creating structure as if you had a long string with complementary parts, and you could then
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sort of design kind of like origami like structures that will fold onto themselves.
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And then you can make any shape from that. That early RNA world eventually got to replication,
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where enzymes encoded in RNA would replicate RNA itself. And then that process basically kicked
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off evolution. And that process of evolution then led to major innovations. The first innovation
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was translation. So you start with an RNA molecule, and you translate it into another
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kind of form. And that's the first kind of encoding, you're like, well, do you need some kind of code?
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Yeah, but the code was in fact, one thing it was conflated with the actuators.
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The actuators were separated from the code only later on. So you first had the self replicating
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code, which was also the actuator. And then you kind of have a functionalization, partitioning
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of the functionalization, a sub functionalization of the proteins that are now going to be the
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workhorse of life. But they're not self replicating, the code remains the RNA. So the most beautiful
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and most complex RNA machine known to man is the ribosome. The ribosome is this massive factory
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that is able to translate RNA into protein. The ribosome, I mean, if you if you want, I don't
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know, divine intervention in the history of life, the ribosome is it. That's one of the great
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invention in the history of life. Yeah, but again, you can't think of great inventions as one time
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steps. They're basically, you know, the culmination of probably many competing software infrastructures
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for life preservation, that one out. And then when the ribosome was so efficient at making proteins,
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all the other ones basically died out. And then the life forms that we're using the modern ribosome
link |
were basically the more successful ones because they could make proteins. And now those proteins
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are much more versatile. Because RNA only has four bases, proteins eventually have 20 amino acids,
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not initially, but eventually. And then they can form in much more complex shapes, and they can
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create all kinds of additional machines, one of which is reverse transcriptase. So you basically
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now have RNA. Again, we like to think of transcription as the normal reverse transcription
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as the oddball. Well, RNA preceded DNA. So reverse transcription actually was the first
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invention before transcription itself. So basically, RNA invents proteins, RNA and proteins
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together, invent DNA. So you now have a more stable medium, a more stable backbone with two
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helices instead of one, two strands instead of one, the double helix. And RNA basically says,
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listen, I'm tired. I'm going to delegate all information storage to DNA. And I'm going to
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get delegate most actuation to proteins, proteins. But that's to you is not like a, that's just an
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efficiency thing. It's not a fundamentally new innovation. That's why when you're asking is
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a separate information storage medium, a definition of life, I'm like, no, any kind of
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self preservation, self reinforcement. And it didn't need to be RNA based initially. It didn't
link |
need to be self replication initially. You just need to have enough RNA molecules randomly arising
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that reinforce each other that ultimately lead to the closing of that loop and the ignition
link |
of the evolutionary process. Can we just rewind a little bit? Like if you were to bet all your
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money on the two options in terms of where life started? Probably the bottom. At the bottom
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of the ocean. I don't know if this is answerable, but how hard is the first step? Or if there's
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something interesting you can say about that first leap about from not life to life.
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I think it's inevitable on earth or just in the universe. I think it's inevitable.
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If you look at Europa, you know, going back the moon of Jupiter, it's also a really nice song by
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Santana. Europa basically has all the ingredients. It has, you know, the core that can emit energy.
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It has the shielding through the ice sheet, protecting it just like an atmosphere would.
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It even has a layer of oxygen, probably sufficiently dense to sustain life. So my guess
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is that there's probably independently arisen lifeform already teeming in Europa because
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as soon as it today. Is that exciting or terrifying to you?
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It's, I mean, as a scientist, I can't wait to see non DNA based lifeforms. I can't wait because
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we are so born, you know, sort of born as I would say in French, but basically we're sort of,
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you know, we are so narrow minded in our thinking of what life should look like that I can't wait
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for all that to just be blown away by the discovery of life elsewhere. Let me bring you into another
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science fiction, a scenario. So on that point, if we discover life on Europa and you were brought in,
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you seem very excited, but how would you start looking at that life in a way that's
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useful to you as a scientist, but also not going to kill all of us. So like to me, it's a little
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bit scary because not because it's a malevolent life, like it's a dictator petting like a cat,
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it's evil, but just the way life is, it seems to be very good at conquering other life.
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So there's a lot of science fiction movies based on that principle. And that's sort of
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what causes the public to be so scared. But if you think about sort of would Europa life be scared
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of humans coming over and taking over? Chances are no, not even like Earth bacteria, because Earth
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bacteria would be wiped out in an instant in this foreign world because they don't know how to metabolize
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energy that doesn't come from the types of energy sources that are here. The levels of acidity
link |
may just kill us all off. And at the same way, in the converse way, if you bring life from Europa
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on Earth, it'll die instantly because it's too hot or because it doesn't need to know how to cope with,
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I don't know, the sun's radiation so close to this completely inhabitable zone by their standards.
link |
So what we call the habitable zone might actually be the inhabitable zone for them.
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Inhabitable for them. So the difference, if the environments are sufficiently different,
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you think we'll just not be able to even attack each other and the basic...
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It'll take massive amounts of engineering to create machines that will go there and sample
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the oceans, basically drill through the layers of ice to basically sample and see
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what life is like there and detecting it will probably be trivial. It definitely won't be
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DNA based. It's not like we're going to send a sequencer, but it'll be some other kind of
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combination of chemicals that will look non random. So if you had to bet, if I took that life form
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we find in Europa and put it on a sandwich that you're eating and eat that sandwich,
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it'll taste just fine. And you'll be... Well, I know about that. Will it taste fine? That's
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interesting. So the other question is, do we have taste receptors for this? So where does
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our taste come from? Well, the chemistry. It's basically adaptations to chemical molecules
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that we are used to seeing. We don't have taste buds for things we don't even know about. So we
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won't be able to know that this chemical tastes funny. But you think it won't be... It's likely not
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to be dangerous. It won't know how to even... Do you think our immune system will even detect
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that something weird is going on? Probably. And it'll be very easy to detect because it'll be
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very different from us. Very weird. But it won't be able to attack. The scene from, I don't know,
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Independence Day where they're communicating with the alien computer and they're like,
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ooh, I'm in. I mean, it's hilarious because Max and PCs have trouble communicating.
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I mean, let alone in alien technology or even alien DNA.
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So, okay. Now I was talking about you being a scientist on Earth, but say you were a scientist
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that were shipped over to Europa to investigate if there's life. What would you look for in terms
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of signs of life? Life is unmistakable, I would say. The way that life transforms a planet surrounding
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it is not the kind of thing that you would expect from the physical laws alone. So it's...
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I would say that as soon as life arises, it creates this compartmentalization. It starts
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pushing things away. It starts sort of keeping things inside that are self. And there's a whole
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signature that you can see from that. So when I was organizing my meaning of life symposium,
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my friend who's an astrophysicist, basically we were deciding on what would be the themes
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for the symposium. And then I said, well, we're going to have biology. We're going to have physics.
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And she's like, oh, come on. Biology is just a small part of physics. Everything's a small
link |
part of physics. And I mean, in many ways it is. But my immediate answer was no, no, no, no, wait.
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Life challenges physics. It supersedes physics. It sort of fights against physics. And that's
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what I would look for in Europa. I would basically look for this fight against physics for anything
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that sort of signatures of not just entropy at work, not just things diffusing away, not just
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gravitational pools, but clear signatures of... Remember when I was talking earlier about this
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whole selection for environments, selection for biospheres, for ecosystems, for these multi organism
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form of life. And I think that's sort of the first thing that you can look for,
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you know, chemical signatures that are not simply predicted from the reactions you would get randomly.
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Such a beautiful way to look at life. So you're basically leveraging some energy source
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to enable you to resist the physics of the universe.
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Fighting against physics. But that's the first transformation. If you look at humans,
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we're way past that.
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What do you mean by transformation?
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So basically there's layers. I sort of see life, you know,
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when we talk about the meaning of life, life can be construed at many levels. We talked about
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life in the simplest form of sort of the ignition of evolution.
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And that's sort of the basic definition that you can check off. Yes, it's alive.
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But when Alexander the Great was asked,
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to whom do you owe your life to your teachers or to your parents?
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And Alexander the Great answered, I owe to my parents the zine, the life itself.
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And I owe to my teachers the f zine, like euphony. F means good. The opposite of cacophony,
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which means, you know, bad. So f zine in his words was basically living a human life, a proper life.
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So basically we can go from the zine to the f zine.
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And that transformation has taken several additional leaps. So basically, you know,
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life on Europa, I'm pretty sure has gotten to the stage of A makes B makes C makes A again.
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But getting to the f zine is a whole other level. And that level requires cooperation.
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That level requires altruism. That level requires specialization.
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Remember how we're talking about the RNA specializing into DNA for storage,
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proteins, and then compartmentalizations. And if you look at prokaryotic life,
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there's no nucleus. It's all one soup of things intermingling. If you look at eukaryotic life,
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again, you for true good, you know, so a eukaryote basically has a nucleus. And that's where you
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compartmentalize further the organization of the information storage from all of the daily
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activities. If you look at a, you know, human body plan or any animal, you have a compartmentalization
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of the germline. You basically have one lineage that will basically be saved for the future generations.
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And everything outside that lineage is almost superfluous. If you think about it, the rest of
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your body, all it does is ensure that that lineage will make it to the next generation,
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that these germlines will make it to the next generation. The rest is packaging.
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I'm sorry to be so blunt. And if you look at nutrition, you know, we're deuterostomes. What
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does deuterostome mean? Deuterome means second, where this is the second mouth. The first mouth
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is actually down here, it's the esophagus. So deuterostomes have evolved a second layer of
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eating, kind of like alien with the two mouths. So you can think of us as alien where the first
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mouth is up here, and then the second mouth is down there. And of course, is the first mouth
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just the physical manipulation of the food to make it more consumable? Correct. And basically,
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again, if you look at a worm, it's an extremely simple life form. It basically has a mouth,
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it has an anus, and it has just some organs in between that consume the food and just spit
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out poo. Humans are basically a fancy form of that. So you basically have the mouth,
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you have the digestive tract, and then you have limbs to get better at getting food.
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Then you have eyesight, hearing, et cetera, to get better at getting food. And then you have,
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of course, the germline. And all of this food part, it's just auxiliary to the germline.
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So you basically have layers of addition of compartmentalization of specialization
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on top of this zine to get all the way to the earth's zine.
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Yeah. So like the worm is like Windows 95, very few features, very basic. And then us humans are
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like Windows Vista, Windows 10, whatever it is. Well, a few innovations beyond that.
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But yeah, I'm not right. We're Windows 3000, at least that way.
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So okay, that's such a fascinating way to look at life as a set of transformations.
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Exactly. So like, is there some interesting transformations through our history here on
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earth that like appeal to you? Of course. And what are the most brilliant innovations and
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transformations? Yeah. I mean, this is such a fascinating question. Of course, like,
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we're talking about basic, basic life forms, and we're talking about eukaryotic life forms.
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And then the next big transformation is multicellular life forms,
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where the specialization separates the germline from everything else that accompanies it and
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sort of carries it. And then that specialization then sort of has this massive new innovation,
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like above the second mouth, which is this massive brain. And this massive brain is basically
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something that arises much, much later on, basically, you know, not chords, like having
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the first spinal cord, this whole concept that along with these very simple layers,
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you basically now have a coordinating agent. And this coordinated agent is starting to make
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decisions. And remember when we were talking about free will? I mean, you know, as a worm is
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hunting for food, oh, it has plenty of free will, it can choose to, you know, follow chemo taxes to
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the left for chemo taxes to the right. And maybe that's free will because it's unpredictable,
link |
beyond a certain level. So you basically now have more and more decision making and coordination
link |
of all of these different body parts and organs by a central parading system, a central machine,
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that basically will control the rest of the body. And the other thing that I love talking about is
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the different timescales at which things happen. You know, we're talking about the human AP genome
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before. The human AP genome is basically able to find what genes should be expressed in response to
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environmental stimuli in the order of minutes, and basically receive a stimulus, transfer all that
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data through this humongously long string of searching, and then sort of find what genes to
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turn on, and then create all that all of that is happening in the timescale of minutes, basically,
link |
you know, three minutes to an hour to half an hour. That's the expression response. But our daily
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life doesn't happen on the order of three minutes to an hour to half an hour, it happened on the
link |
order of milliseconds, like a throw a ball at you, you catch it right away. No gene expression
link |
changes there. You just don't have time to do that. So you basically have a layer of control
link |
built on a hardware that supports it, but that hardware itself lives in a different timescale
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than the controlling machine on top of that. Is that an accident, by the way? Is that like a feature?
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Is it was it possible for a life to have evolved where the our the daily life with the organism as
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it interacts with its environment was on a timescale similar to the the way our internals work?
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If you look at trees, they look kind of boring and stupid, you're like looking at a tree like
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stupid. If you speed up the movie of a tree from spring until October, you'll be like, oh my god,
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it's intelligent. And the reason for that is that at that timescale, the tree is basically saying, oh,
link |
I'm looking for a, you know, a thing to catch on to. Oh, I just caught on to that. I'm going to grow
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more here. I'm going to spawn there, etc. Like, I can see the trees in my garden just growing and
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sort of, you know, looping around. And it's all a matter of timescale. And if you look at the human
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timescale, remember, we were talking about neoteny the last time around the whole fact that our young
link |
are pretty useless until, you know, maybe, you know, a few months of age, if not a few years of age,
link |
if not, I don't know, getting out of college. And then we basically hold them, enabling their brain
link |
to continue being malleable and infusing it with knowledge and, you know, thoughts as,
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you know, that period of neoteny increases and expands. If you fast forward, I don't know,
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another million years. So humans have only been around, you know, different from apes for about
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that long. Jumped another unit of that, another human chim divergence. What could happen from an
link |
evolutionary timescale a lot? One of the things that's happening already is expansion of human
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lifespan. We have longer and longer periods before we mature. And we have longer and longer
link |
periods before we have babies. So intergenerational distance is, you know, grown from, I don't know,
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16 years to 40 years. You're saying that's in the genetics, like... No, no, not necessarily.
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But it's sort of an environmental tendency that's happening. But as we medically expand human
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lifespan, the generations might actually be pushed instead of 40 years to 60 years to 100 years.
link |
Like if we look at the long arc of the evolutionary history. Exactly. So as we start thinking about
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intergalactic travel now... Sorry, that's a heck of a transition. Yeah, so let's talk about... No, no,
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no, no. As we, as a species, start thinking about... I'm talking about these transitions that are
link |
happening, right? That's awesome. So continuing along these transitions, what does the future
link |
hold in the next million years? So the concept of us going to another planet and that taking
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three human lifetimes might be a joke if the human lifetime starts being 400 years or 800 years.
link |
So imagine... It's all timescale. It's all timescale. Just different timescales. Yeah.
link |
You asked me offline whether I would like to live forever. I mean, my answer is absolutely. And
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there's many different types of forever. One forever is, do I want to live today forever? Kind
link |
of like Groundhog Day. And the answer is absolutely. The stuff that I want to learn today will probably
link |
take a lifetime just to learn, you know, to clear my dedulis for the day. You mean like relive the
link |
day? Relive the day. And then pick up different things from the richness of the experiences
link |
they're all in today. Exactly. There's just so much happening in the world every single day.
link |
So much knowledge that's happened already that just to catch up on that will probably take me
link |
around forever. On that point, I would just love to see you in the Groundhog movie just
link |
because you're so naturally as a scientist, but just the way your mind works beautifully,
link |
just all the richness of the experiences that you will pick up from that. That's a beautiful
link |
visual. Try to live each day as if it was Groundhog Day. And basically every single day,
link |
waking up and saying, all right, how would Bill Murray get out of that one? Well, you know what?
link |
On a funny tangent, I got a chance to go to a Neuralink demonstration event. I'm not
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usually familiar with Neuralink. And I talked to Elon for a while. And one of the funny things he
link |
said on this Groundhog Day thing is, you know, it's a beautiful dream to eventually be able to
link |
replay our memories. So we're kind of these recording machines. Our brain is kind of maybe
link |
a noisy recording machine of memories. And it'll be beautiful if we can someday in the future,
link |
maybe far into the future, be able to, like in the Groundhog Day situation, replay that.
link |
And the funny comment that stuck with me is he said that maybe this, our conversation now,
link |
is a replay of a memory of a previous memory. And that's stuck with me because
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it would probably be my replay, you know, who the hell am I? I'm just an idiot guy. But like,
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Elon Musk is, you know, probably because of SpaceX and so on is probably going to be remembered as
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a special person, one of our special apes in history. So if I wanted to replay a memory,
link |
probably be that one, you know, talking to Elon for a while. And that's an interesting
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possibility from a, if we think about time scales, if we think about the richness of the
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experience through time that we humans take, and be able to replay some aspects of that,
link |
of that biology, that's super interesting. But anyway, sorry for the tangents. Let's,
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you were talking about time scales and the expansion of the human lifetime and
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the idea of intercoactic travel. Yeah. No, but, but you're laughing about it.
link |
Yeah, no, for sure. That is you're talking about this. You're talking about exploring alien worlds
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and going to other planets. I mean, you know, when Sarah was here, she was talking about sort of
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going to other planets when we find these five. I mean, I'm just very naturally, given the topics
link |
that we've approached, talking about the time scale at which this will happen. So you think
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eventually we will human or life, life will expand out into the universe.
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The point that I'm trying to make is that in intergalactic species, we'll probably find ways
link |
to engineer its biology in order to expand the way that we experience time, expand the time
link |
scale that we experienced. And going back to this whole concept of, you know, would I like to live
link |
forever? Yes, I'd like to live forever. Even if it was, even if it was stuck on the same day,
link |
I'd love to live forever because I would finally have time to do all these things that I want to do.
link |
But if living forever actually comes with a perk of watching the whole world evolve forever,
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I mean, that's a huge perk. And I would, you know, just, it'll never get boring,
link |
just a never changing world. And then the mind, you know, sort of experiment that I want you to
link |
do is to also ask, what if I wanted to live forever one day at a time every year or one
link |
day at a time every decade? Would you choose that where you would wake up and the world would be
link |
10 years later every single day you wake up? It's the opposite of Groundhog Day, where basically
link |
you always wake up and it's always 10 years later. So you're saying that's such a powerful,
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interesting concept that life is more interesting if you're, of all the life forms on earth,
link |
that you're the slowest one. Exactly. Like trees have it right.
link |
All the trees, like, you know, they've been there since the Minoan civilization.
link |
Yeah. And, you know, that takes us back to the question you asked about sort of the
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transformations that have happened in humanity. The Minoan civilization is one of them.
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You know, there's this paper that was published just a couple of years ago by one of my friends
link |
that basically looked at the genetic makeup of the Minoans and the Mycenaeans in ancient
link |
Greek, in ancient Greece and how they relate to modern Greeks. And they found that indeed
link |
there was very little gene flow from, you know, the outside. And, you know, it's fantastic to sort
link |
of think about these amazing civilizations that transform the way that human thought happens.
link |
That basically looked for rules in nature, that looked for principles, that looked for
link |
the standard of beauty, not human beauty, but beauty in the natural world. This whole concept
link |
that the world must be elegant and there must be deeper ways of understanding that world.
link |
To me, that's a massive transformation of our species, similar to, you know, the earlier
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transformation that we're talking about, of even involving a brain, of, you know, learning how
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to communicate language or the evolution of eyesight. If you look at sort of, you know,
link |
we're talking about these worms crawling around and then sensing which direction are the chemicals
link |
more abundant, you know, chemotaxis. So eventually they grow a nose, eventually they grow a,
link |
I mean, when I say nose, I mean, ways of sensing chemicals. That's probably one of the earliest
link |
senses. You know, we always talk about how deep rooted it is in your brain. That's one of the
link |
earliest senses. If you look at hearing, that's a much later sense. If you look at eyesight,
link |
that's an intermediate sense where you're basically sensing where the light direction comes from.
link |
That's probably something that life didn't need until it got, you know, into the surface
link |
and so on and so forth. So there's a lot of, you know, milestones. And I was talking about the
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latest milestone, which is LIGO, last time, of being able to detect gravitational waves and
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sort of being able to sort of have a sense that humans haven't had before.
link |
So you see that as a yet another transformation gives us an extra little sense.
link |
Of course. And now if you go back to this history of ancient Greece, I mean, this transformation
link |
that happened, I mean, of course, the Egyptians had this incredible, you know, civilization for
link |
thousands of years. But what happened in Greece was this whole concept of let's break things down
link |
and understand the natural world. Let's break things down and understand physics. Let's basically
link |
build rules around architecture, about around elegance, around, you know, statues and tragedy.
link |
I mean, another question that you asked me in passing was this whole concept of embracing
link |
the good and the bad, embracing the full range of human emotions. And if you look at Greek tragedy,
link |
it's the definition of that. It's, I mean, drama. I mean, again, it's a Greek word.
link |
But the whole concept of some problems that are just so vast and large that dying is the easy way
link |
out. That death, oh, that's the easy solution. You know, so I want to touch a little bit on
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that point and sort of talk about this concept that life supersedes physics and that the brain
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supersedes life. That basically we have a brain that can decide to not follow evolution's path.
link |
We can decide to not have children. We can decide to not eat. We can decide to suicide.
link |
We can decide to sort of abolish communication with the outside world. I mean, all the things
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that make us human, we can basically decide not to do that. And that, that is basically when
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the brain itself is basically superseding what evolution problem is for.
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So, okay, so one of the, it's, okay, my mind was already blown at the beautiful formulation of
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the idea that life is a system that resists physics. And our brain, or perhaps the content of it,
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or however it may be functionally, our brain is a thing that resists life. Yes, yes.
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You're so, you're so brilliant. But I want you to see all of that as continuum. Basically,
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you're sort of talking about the sort of individual transformations, but it's a path
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that humanity has been taking. It's a transformation. It's a path of transformation.
link |
And then I want us to think about what it truly means to become human, like the F zine. And you
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asked me about what motivated my meaning of life's imposing. What motivated it in part,
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I mean, of course, it was an inside joke of turning 42. But what motivated it in part was
link |
actually a midlife crisis. So the joke that I always like to say is Jesus Papadimitriou,
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a famous Greek professor who was previously at MIT at Harvard, at Stanford, at Berkeley, everywhere.
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A brilliant, brilliant person. That's actually Costis's advisor. So Jesus Papadimitriou likes
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to say that when you're an undergrad, you work like a rat to get into grad school. And when
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you're a grad student, you work like a rat to get your PhD. And when you're a postdoc, you work like
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a rat to get your assistant professor. And when you're an assistant professor, you work like a
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rat to become a full professor. And then when you're a full professor, well, by then you're basically
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a rat. So basically what happened to me is that I arrived at the end of the rat race.
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Life is a rat race. You constantly have hurdles to jump over. You constantly have tunnels and
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secret pathways. And I figured it all out. And eventually, as I was turning 42, I looked back
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and I was like, wow, that was an awesome rat race. But I'm not a rat. I basically got out of the
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labyrinth and I was like, I'm not a rat turns out. Is that the first moment we saw that you were in
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a rat race? No, no, no. I've known that I'm in a rat race for a long time. It's so easy to be in a
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rat race. It's so easy to be an undergrad. But you have problem sets. And we're all smart people.
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Problem set, it has a solution. Somebody made it for you. You can just solve it. Everything was
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made as a test. And you keep passing those tests and tests and tests and tests. And you have tasks
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that are well defined. The PhD is a little different because it's more open ended. But yet
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you have an advisor who's guiding you. And then you become a professor. And tenure is a well said
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defined set of tasks. And you do all that. And at 42, I basically had bought a house, three kids,
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beautiful wife, tenure, awesome students, tons of grants. Life was basically laid out for me.
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And that's when I had my main life crisis. That's when people usually buy a Harley Davidson.
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And they basically say, oh, I need something new. I need something different and to be young
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myself, et cetera. But basically, that was my realization that it's not a rat race,
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that there's no rat race, it's over. That I have to basically think, how do I fully
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instantiate myself? How do I complete my transformation into an actual human being?
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Because it's very easy to sort of forget all the intangibles of life. It's very hard to just sort
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of think about the next task and the next task. And it's all metrics. And what is the number of
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viewers I have? What is the number of publications I have? What is the number of citations,
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the number of talks, the number of grants? It's very easy to quantify everything. And then at some
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point, you're like, this is real life. It's not a test anymore. And that's something that I told
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my wife early on. I was like, no, no, no, our life is not going to be let's put the kids through
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college. And maybe that's when I escaped the rat race. Maybe it continued being a rat race.
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Maybe the next step would have been, all right, how do I make sure that my kid is first in class?
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How do I make sure that they're into the greatest colors? And then they're into college,
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and then you're like 60. So how do you escape? Is there light at the end of the tunnel of a
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midlife crisis? So you should watch that symposium, because the videos were transformative to me
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and to many others. So basically, the advice that I received from all of my friends was
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so meaningful. There's some advice that basically says you have to constantly maintain
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unachievable goals, goals that you can make progress towards, but you can never be fully
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done with. And I think that's almost playing into the sort of rat race thing, like basically
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make sure that there's more obstacles for your little rat persona to jump through. So that's
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one possibility. So first of all, watch. Is it available somewhere? It's on YouTube. Just Google
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meaning of life symposium. I should have known this. I mean, you should have told me this. This
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is awesome. Okay. This is great. But and also like, you know, saying rat race is, you know,
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if we look at ratatouille, I mean, that's a beautiful thing of challenges and overcoming
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challenges. That could be fundamentally the meaning of life is to see life as a set of challenges
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and to fully engage in the overcoming of those challenges. I would say that that's embracing
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the rat race view of life. So a joke that we like to have with my wife all the time is we basically
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say we pretend that we're in this all inclusive resort that we've basically hired all these people
link |
to go on the Esplanade and play games because we enjoy watching people playing on the Esplanade and
link |
we enjoy sort of laying and looking at life and all the people biking and rollerblading and all
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of that. And then we've paid all these people in this all inclusive resort that we live in.
link |
And then what are we going to do today? I'm like, Oh, I've signed up for professor activities.
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It's going to be awesome. They lined up a bunch of super smart MIT students for me to meet with.
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I'm going to have a grant writing meeting afterwards. It's going to be awesome. And then she
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signed up for a bunch of consulting activities. It's going to be great. And then in the evening,
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we just get back together and say, Hey, how was your consulting today? So in a way, that's another
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view of life of basically, wait a minute, if I was a gazillionaire, what would I choose to do?
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I would probably pay an awesome university to give me an office there and just pay a bunch of super
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smart people to work with me, even though they don't really want to, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
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In fact, I would have exactly the life that I have now working my butt off every single day
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because it's so freaking fulfilling. Well, that's, so let's clarify. It's just a beautiful way.
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It's a beautiful way. It's almost like a video game view of life that it's a set of, I mean, again,
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game is not perhaps a positive term, but it is a beautiful term. So do you or do you not like the
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rat race view of life? No. Because it is fulfilling in some fundamental way.
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The rat race is about the goal. My view of life is about the path. So again, according to Greece.
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Those folks have come up with some good stuff.
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So this Odysseus Elites basically wrote this beautiful poem about sort of going through
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life saying, as you go through your journey impersonating Ulysses of his voyage,
link |
he says, wish that the path is long and arduous. Because when you get to Ithaca,
link |
you might realize that it was all about the path, not the destination.
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So the rat race view of life makes it all about the destination. It's like,
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how do I get through the maze to get there? But the all inclusive resort view of life
link |
is about the path. It's about, wow, today, I couldn't wish for a better set of activities,
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all programmed for me to enjoy having my brain, having my body, having my senses and
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the life that I have. So it's a very different kind of view. It's focused on the journey,
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not on the destination. So you mentioned kind of the ups and downs of life and the midlife crisis.
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And right now you said focusing kind of on the journey. But what the journey involves
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is ups and downs. Is there advice or any kind of thoughts that you can elucidate about the downs
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in your life, the hard parts of your life and how you got out or maybe not? Or is there,
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yeah, how do you see the dark parts of life? So I am so glad you're asking this question,
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because it's something that our society does a terrible job at preparing us for.
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Every Hollywood movie has to have a happy ending. It is ridiculous. You can count on your 10 fingers,
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the number of bad ending movies that you've ever watched. And you probably wouldn't need all 10
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fingers. We strive to tell everyone, yes, you can succeed. Yes, you're a millionaire just temporarily
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disabled. And yes, you know, the prince will eventually figure out his princess and they will
link |
have a happily ever after ending. And yes, the hero will be beaten and beaten and beaten. But
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you know that at the end of the movie, the good guys will win. We need more movies where the
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bad guys win. We need more movies where just everybody dies. We're just, you know, MacGyver
link |
doesn't figure out how to disable the bomb and just explode. You just need more movies that are
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more realistic about the fact that life kind of sucks sometimes and it's okay. So again,
link |
growing up in Greece, I have been exposed to songs that are not just sad, but they're miserable,
link |
miserable. So one of them comes to mind. And it's basically talking about this woman who's
link |
lamenting in the early morning about losing the joyful kid, the joyful young man,
link |
who basically died in the civil war in the arms of our own fellow citizens. And she's like,
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if only he had died fighting the foreign forces, if only he had died at the sides of the general,
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if only he had died with honor, I would be proud to have lost the joyful kid. I mean,
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it's devastating, right? It's like, he didn't just die. He died without honor. And my friend who
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was with me was listening to the song and she's like, this is depressing. You have to listen to
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another one. It's not a sad. And she's like, what, this one died with honor? So that's one example.
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It's a kind of a celebration of misery. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So let me give you a couple
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more examples and then I'll answer that question. So another example is I picked up this book that
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I had for my childhood and I started reading stories to my kids. And the first story is about
link |
these two children. One is really poor living on the street and the other one is really rich,
link |
living in the house on the bright light above. And the poor one is wishing, looking at that window
link |
and wishing that he could have that house. And the other one is at the window wishing that he was
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free, that he wasn't sick all the time, that he could escape outside. It's only four pages long.
link |
And at the end, both children die. One of them dies from cold, the other one dies from illness.
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And you're like, how is that even a children's story? The next story, I'm like, okay, that's
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fine. Let's keep this one. So I read this to my kids and then I read the next one. And the next
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one is about this woman whose brother is at war against the Turks and he is going to die.
link |
And she prays to the virgin, please don't let him die. And the virgin appears and she's like,
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no problem. Tell me who to kill instead. And she's like, anyone, anyone. No, no, no,
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choose one. How about this Turk? This one has two kids, a beautiful family waiting for him at home.
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She's like, no, not this one, choose another one. And then she goes through all the life
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stories of the others and she's like, no, no, just don't take anyone. She's like, I can't do that.
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You can choose to bring your brother back and he will be depressed for the rest of his life
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because he didn't fight at war because he didn't go to that battle and he will live without arms.
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She's like, and in the end, the woman decides to have her brother killed instead because he dies
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without, I mean, this is insane. So why am I giving you these examples? It's not a glorification
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of misery. It's expanding your emotional range. It's teaching you that and when I read these stories,
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I'm not, I'm not a jerk. I'm crying out loud. I have tears and I like my face becomes red
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from the pain that I'm experiencing through these stories. It's just so deeply touching
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to embrace the suffering not because of an accident, but because of a choice,
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the sacrifice to embrace the fact that not everything is cute and rosy and always ending
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well. And I think that we don't do a good enough job of teaching our kids that just life sucks and
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life is unfair sometimes. And that's, and that's okay. And sometimes I read a story to my kids.
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I read a story every night and sometimes the story is horrible and sometimes the story is good
link |
and sort of friendly and happy. And my kids always ask, what's the moral of the story?
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And sometimes there's a moral and it's like, oh, you should be good or you should be nice.
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You should be helping each other, et cetera. And sometimes there's just no moral.
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And I tell my kids, you know what, sometimes just life doesn't make sense and it's okay.
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And you can't comprehend everything. And I think this concept of how do you deal with bad days
link |
comes from the fact that we're taught, we're brainwashed into thinking that every day should
link |
be a happy day. And we're not ready to cope with misery. And the other thing that crying
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through these stories teaches you is that you don't have it nearly half as bad as you think.
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Do you see what I mean? Basically, it tells you that, I mean, my mom would always tell me about
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how she was transformed as a teenager when she volunteered in the hospital. And she saw all
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these people at the brink of death, clinging for life and helping them out to best she could and
link |
crying her heart out when they were dying. And just sort of how that taught her the
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appreciation for what we have every day. Waking up every morning and saying,
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my life doesn't suck. My life is not nearly half as bad as it could be.
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And, and sort of embracing the joy that we have of living where we live in the moment
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we live. And I'm going to go further. If you look at the arc of human life,
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you know, human existence through the centuries, there's no better way to be alive than now.
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I mean, we're complaining about every single little thing. But life expectancy is at an all
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time high sickness, all time low, poorness, misery, all time low. There's no better time to be alive
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globally across all of human existence. Number one, number two, here in Boston,
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there's no better place to be alive. If you think about the amalgamation of science,
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engineering, technology, the ridiculously awesome people you're bringing every week to your podcast.
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I mean, this is the ancient Greece of modern society. But the weather still sucks.
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No, let me put it this way. The weather gives us a range of emotion. The full range of human
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weather patterns. That's such a fascinating thing about human psychology. I often reread this book.
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I'm not sure if you're familiar with it. It's Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Franco. And
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he talks about his living through the Holocaust and the concentration camps. And even there,
link |
where there's like human misery, is that it's highest. Even there, he discovers these moments
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by observing the suffering, by accepting the suffering. He observes moments of true joy of
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how great his life is relative to others at the camp who have it worse.
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Yeah. So it's a dangerous slippery slope to think that way, because it's basically being
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better than Jones's. And if the house next door has a giant car, then you want to get a bigger car
link |
or something like that. It's not comparative misery. I think the way that I see it is slightly
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different. And it's not even thinking about all the worst possible outcomes that could have happened,
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but didn't. The example, as you were talking about the concentration camps, one of the most
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horrible moments of human existence, I was thinking about pictures that I was seeing of kids in Syria,
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in war torn zones. And you're looking at these kids. And again, I cried out loud,
link |
imagining my own son in the van after a bomb explosion, watching his, you know,
link |
father die or his siblings die or losing his friends. It's something that we are not
link |
capable of fathoming. But if you actually put a seven year old in that situation,
link |
the look that I saw in these kids eyes basically said, it is what it is. It was, it was, and I've
link |
experienced that with my own kid. When he gets like my three year old, last like two years ago,
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who's not my five year old, she was burned really badly with like hot chocolate and coffee that
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just peeled off her skin. So you could actually see just her fragile skin had just peeled off.
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And she was the happiest little kid. She was just going along with the punches.
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It is what it is. She accepted it. So, so it's, it's quite dramatic to sort of realize that
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children don't say, Oh, I could have it better. They, they sort of
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embrace the moment, not embrace, but sort of accept the moment. And then they can have moments
link |
of pure joy in a horrendous war torn country. And, you know, like so many people from, you know,
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these war torn countries basically say, Oh, you think you Americans are going to just come and
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just send us a bunch of aid and food, et cetera. Yeah, sure. That's helpful. But what do we dream
link |
of? What do we struggle for? We struggle for love. We struggle for meaning. We struggle for,
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you know, emotions and friendships. We struggle for the same things you guys struggle for.
link |
We're not just like every day waking up and saying, Oh, I wish I had more food.
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No, that's just a given. I just don't have enough food. But what we struggle with
link |
are basically everything else. And that sort of gives you some perspectives on life. It basically
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says, you know, and another story that my mom told me when I was a kid is this story about sort of
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this man who's basically, you know, see, he sees the Christ appear in front of him. He says, Oh,
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Christ, I'm carrying all these problems. I'm carrying this big bag. Can you please take it
link |
from me? And he's like, Sure, let me just give you any other bag. And basically,
link |
and of course, the person in the end accepts his own bag. So acceptance ultimately,
link |
basically, every single other bag is probably worse. It's the evil you don't know versus the
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evil you know, like we all struggle with our own problems. But if you look at the bigger picture,
link |
it's just your path through life. And if you embrace it, the good and the bad, every single day,
link |
it's just joy, elation, sadness, misery. If you don't have both, you're not a complete human being.
link |
You know, you can't I mean, the last example I'm going to give is the movie
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Inside Out by Pixar. Beautiful movie. Which one is that the one with the little characters
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controlling all the emotions? So you basically have joy and sadness and fear and disgust, etc.
link |
And the moral of the story, if you remember the movie, the moral of the story is that in the end,
link |
joy is basically trying to fix everything to make everything happy. And she's failing miserably.
link |
And everything else is like crumbling and falling apart. And the little girl basically becomes
link |
emotionless because all she knows how to do is fake happiness. And I think it's a very good
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analogy for our everyday society where we're always saying, are you happy? Are you happy?
link |
My mom calls me and she's like, Manolis, are you happy? I'm like, mom, stop asking this stupid
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question. No, I'm not happy. What you should be asking is if I'm fulfilled. And that's a very
link |
different thing. I don't go around being happy. I would love it if your mom called and said,
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Manolis, are you suffering beautifully or something like that? It's exactly right. That's
link |
what she should be asking. Are you struggling to achieve something great? That's the question
link |
that mom should be asking. Here that mom called me about the suffering, not about how good are
link |
you doing? So what I tell her is that life is not about maximizing happiness. Life is about
link |
accomplishing something meaningful. And accomplishing that meaningful thing cannot come
link |
from a series of joyful moments. It comes from a series of struggles, of successes,
link |
and failures, of people being nasty to you and people being nice to you and embracing the full
link |
thing. And if you supersede that constant need for gratification, if you supersede that constant
link |
need for kindness, you suddenly know who you are. And what I like to say to my kid, and my son
link |
the other day was telling me, oh, so and so called me such and such. And I'm like, are you such and
link |
such? He's like, no. I'm like, ha ha, see, they were wrong. And what I tell him is if you know
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who you are, what other people say about you only teaches you about them. Yeah. So it has no
link |
influence on your self esteem. If you know where you stand, you embrace the good, but you also
link |
embrace the bad. I have plenty of bad, and I'm embracing it. I'm a procrastinator. How do I
link |
deal with that? I trick myself into procrastinating about mindless, stupid little day to day things.
link |
And in that procrastination time, doing important things for the future.
link |
So accepting who you are, accepting your flaws, accepting the whole of it, accepting the struggle,
link |
accepting the sleeplessness, accepting the fact that the journey is what matters, hoping that
link |
your path to Ithaca is full of troubles because those troubles are the life you will lead,
link |
accepting that life will not start after the next milestone that life has already started
link |
a long time ago. And what you're experiencing now is the life. This is it. It's not some kind
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of future thing that you work yourself hard to get to. And then after that you live happily ever
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after. To me, the happily ever after, that's the end of the story. Nothing happens after that.
link |
The struggle and the struggle and the struggle is much more interesting story
link |
than they live happily ever after. So I think we have to embrace that as a society,
link |
that it's not just about the happy ending, that our kids are brainwashed into expecting
link |
that things will be happy and rosy and it's okay if they're not. And they should keep
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struggling because the struggle is the journey and the journey is the meaning of life.
link |
It's not the end. It's the journey. What about accepting one of the harder things? We talked
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a little bit about immortality. What about accepting that life ends? So do you, Manolis,
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think about your own mortality? How we talked about accepting that there's ups and downs to life.
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What about the ultimate down which is the finality of it? Do you think about that? Do you fear it?
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You also ask me if I'm afraid of getting older. Yes. And that's on the path to mortality. So let
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me talk about that first step and then the last step. The last step. Literally the last step. So
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getting older, what does that mean? When I was 18, when I was 20, my brain I felt was at my maximum.
link |
I was like, nothing is impossible. I can't solve anything. I could take any math puzzle, any logic
link |
puzzle, any programming puzzle and just solve it in milliseconds. I just saw the answer through
link |
problems. I was like feeling invincible. I would show up at lecture with my newspaper, lift up my
link |
head every now and then, point to errors, just brat, complete brat. I would raise my hand and
link |
correct my professor from the whole classroom. Total brat. I have some of those in my class now
link |
and it's awesome. It's like very huge. I used to be you. It teaches you humility. So I felt invincible
link |
and I was like, this is it. This is awesome. I'm living the life. 10 years later, my brain
link |
didn't work the same way. I wasn't as good at the tiny little puzzles, but it worked in
link |
different ways. And right now, 20 years later, it works in yet different ways. And oh gosh,
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I love the journey. Can you maybe give some hints of the interesting different ways that your brain
link |
works as it aged? Yeah. I went from the phase of sheer speed and hardcore quantitative thinking
link |
to sort of stepping back, being able to sort of make more connections, being able to sort of say,
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yeah, but let's use that thing sort of a huge new creativity being unleashed. Basically,
link |
when you're young, you're sort of thinking about that one problem. You can sort of reconfigure
link |
all the variables combinatorially in your head and just wipe it all out. When you're,
link |
you know, it's a little older, you start getting more creative, you start bringing in things from
link |
different fields and different contexts, and sort of stepping outside the box. Basically,
link |
it's like being in the right race and saying, there's a ceiling. Why are we trying to get through
link |
that? So it's sort of, you know, thinking outside the box. And then at 40, what I'm going through now
link |
is this whole sort of embracing the path of life. And when I say life has started already,
link |
it's not a test anymore. This is basically embracing the finality,
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embracing that the journey is what it's at. So what I like to say is live every day,
link |
as if it's your last one, and make plans as if you'll never die. I always have the long term
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that I'm, you know, sort of planning out for that will eventually become the short term.
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And I always have the sort of short term. And I think this ability to sort of look at life in
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the back in the past and look at life in the future jointly and sort of embrace the continuity,
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both of life in the universe and on our planet, as well as life as a human being from the beginning
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to the end, just as a path as a journey, and just embracing every aspect of that. I mean,
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I was talking about parenthood the other day and how amazingly fulfilling it is to sort of relive
link |
childhood through the eyes of my kids, but with the perspective of a parent. So the sheer,
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you know, arrogance of youth. Watching this in my kid, I can see myself when I was 18,
link |
correcting my professor, I felt so proud. Little did I know that my professor was working on so
link |
much more interesting things than the three little things he was putting on the board that day.
link |
And I was like, I'm invincible. But in fact, no, just a little brat. And basically right now,
link |
I sort of can see the sort of journey with a little more humility. I can sort of look at
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my own students with their unbelievable abilities, being able to do things that I'm no longer able
link |
to do better than I probably was ever able to do, but yet being able to guide them and shape
link |
their thinking and blow their minds with new ideas and new directions through my perspective.
link |
And I know when something is solvable because I've been there, but I'm not going to even bother.
link |
It's not that I can't do it. I'm sure I could if I tried, but just I'm not interested in that
link |
anymore. So what I'm embracing this journey of aging is how my brain is changing and how I'm
link |
constantly trying to figure out the niches, the evolutionary niches that I'm best adapted for
link |
for the tasks that I'm best at while hiring and recruiting both assistants and research scientists
link |
and students and postdocs and, you know, that will be the best at those tasks.
link |
But someone still has to see the big picture. And I love being in that role.
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So you're at the time scale of a human lifespan, you're doing the same thing that the worm
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did at the evolutionary time scale of growing arms. That's the specialization, the carp
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compartmentalization. You talked about, I mean, it's fascinating to think of what
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an 80 year old menolus would look back at the man that's sitting here today and laugh at the
link |
silliness, at the arrogance.
link |
He finally figured out something. I was like, no little thing. You didn't figure out anything.
link |
I mean, ultimately, it seems that if you're introspective about life, it leads to a kind of
link |
acceptance, a deeper and deeper acceptance of the whole of it.
link |
There, again, I want to be cautious about acceptance because it almost says that you
link |
can't change it. It's sort of embracing the struggle and embracing the journey.
link |
This is the way that I would put it.
link |
So you, Walter Mayfield, the journey isn't just something that happens to you?
link |
Of course. You shape it. Remember how I was saying that Boston is the best place and the best time
link |
to live in right now, you know, in the history of humanity? I'm exaggerating a little bit.
link |
But the way that I think about this is that if you look at the whole of cosmos,
link |
where would you rather be? If you're just a bunch of molecules, roughly your biomass,
link |
where would you rather be? Would you rather be a rock on Mars? Probably not.
link |
Would you rather be in a black hole? Probably not.
link |
Would you rather be in an exploding supernova? Maybe. That might be interesting.
link |
But being on Earth is an awesome solar system, an awesome planetary system, an awesome place
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to be in across all of space time. It's a pretty good place to be in as a bunch of molecules.
link |
If you are a bunch of molecules on Earth today, being an animal with, you know, some kind of
link |
awareness of the stuff around you is wonderful. Being a human among all animals is amazing
link |
because you have all this introspection. And being a human who's young, fit, athletic, smart,
link |
et cetera, I mean, you know, you have so much to be happy for. Beyond that, being surrounded by a
link |
bunch of awesome people that you interact with all the time. I mean, I feel blessed to interact
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with the people I know, with the friends I have, the dinners that I have, all of this,
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the students that I interact with. I'm so blessed. And the last little blip in this
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awesomeness of local maximum, the last little blip comes from being kind, being grateful,
link |
and being kind. I don't know if you remember that little prayer that I described last time
link |
of thank you for all the good you've given me and give me strength to give on to others
link |
with the same love that you've given to me. And the whole point of that is being grateful
link |
and being kind. What does that do? From a purely egoistic perspective, it makes the people around
link |
you happier. And it takes that little maximum a little bit further, because you'll be surrounded by
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happy people by being kind. That's the purely egoistic view. And the purely altruistic view,
link |
or maybe it's egoistic as well, is that it just, it's good to give. It feels good to give. Like,
link |
basically watching somebody who's touched by what you said, watching somebody who's like
link |
appreciating a rapid response, or a generous offer, or just random acts of kindness is so
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fulfilling. So evolutionarily, we were selected for that. They're just such a good feeling that
link |
comes from that. You know, it's fascinating to think you said Boston is the best place,
link |
and talking about kindness, that the very thought that Boston is the best place in the universe
link |
is almost, it's a kind of a gravitational field. Your thought and your very life in itself is a
link |
kind of field that makes that real. So the self fulfilling prophecy, by claiming it's the best,
link |
and thinking it's the best, it becomes the best. And you make others, it's not a force that just
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applies to your own cognition. It applies to the others around you. And then suddenly you live in
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an even better place. Yeah. And it creates the reality, the actual reality that the social
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reality, then it molds the environment. Exactly. What's one of the coolest things about you,
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I think, is you represent the best of MIT, like the spirit of MIT. I'm so glad that I'm
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fortunate enough to be able to talk to you, because there's a kind of cynicism about academia in
link |
parts that I think is undeserved, and that there's this MIT, of course, but academic institutions
link |
is a sacred place where ideas can flourish, and just in the same very way that you're talking about,
link |
is both kindness and curiosity, and that weird thing that happens when a bunch of curious
link |
descendants of apes get together and just get excited in this ripple effect that happens.
link |
I mean, that's the most beautiful aspect of MIT. People might think like competition and grants,
link |
and position, like you said, the rat race, but underneath it all is these curious human beings,
link |
inspiring younger human beings, and there's this ripple effect that happens, and I'm so glad that
link |
I mean, I'm glad that I get a chance to record this, because it inspires so many other students
link |
and so many other people to do the same, to embrace the inner curious creature that's not
link |
about the race. So let's talk about the negatives. Let's talk about, no, no, no, I'm serious. I'm
link |
serious. You know, you have to embrace the good and the bad. So let's talk about the negative.
link |
As the Greek comes out. Let's address it. So why do people want positions of power?
link |
Why do people want, you know, more money, more power, more this, more that?
link |
Remember the part where I was saying, if you know who you are, what other people think about you,
link |
it makes no difference to you. It only teaches you about them. Many people feel
link |
defined themselves. They feel instantiated through the eyes of others. So being in a position of
link |
power makes them feel better about themselves. Who knows what other kind of struggles they might have
link |
that creates that need to feel better about themselves. But they have a bunch of struggles,
link |
and everybody has a bunch of struggles. And every time I see somebody behaving poorly,
link |
I'm basically thinking, well, they're in a tough spot right now. And it's okay. You know, I can,
link |
I can kind of see how I would behave badly in other circumstances as well. So I think
link |
if you take away that sort of having to prove yourself in the eyes of others,
link |
life becomes so much easier. So when I first became a professor at MIT,
link |
I started wearing adult clothes. It became a serious person.
link |
I basically had, you know, I would always like go around in my rollerblades and my shorts and
link |
a t shirt. And eventually I was a professional, like, oh, I bought all these khaki pants and,
link |
you know, these nice like, you know, shirts with like, you know, whatever they call it, patterns.
link |
And I was like, you know, dressing with my nice belt every day showing up. And then a few months
link |
later, I was like, I can't stand it. And I just went back to my rollerblades and my t shirts and my
link |
shorts. And it was this struggle of sort of not feeling that I fit in. I was so intimidated by
link |
all of my colleagues, like just watching their incredible achievements, like persons next to
link |
me and the person, you know, the floor below me, I was like, Oh my God, like, they clearly made a
link |
mistake. What the heck am I doing here? How will I ever live up to these people's standards?
link |
And eventually you grow up to realize that the way that I grew up to realize that the way that
link |
other people perceived my work was very similar to the way that I perceived other people's work
link |
as flawless. I knew all of the flaws in my work. I knew the limitations. I knew
link |
what I hadn't managed to achieve. And what I saw was maybe a third of the way of what I was trying
link |
to achieve. And I saw everything as flawed. What they saw, what I had achieved, they didn't see
link |
what I hadn't achieved. They only saw the one third down, which was pretty good in their eyes.
link |
So they all respected me. And I was feeling miserable about myself. I was like, I'm not worthy.
link |
I'm not worthy. And I think that this is a cognitive problem that we have. We kind of,
link |
it's kind of like when we're talking about artificial general intelligence, AGI,
link |
of sort of, we kind of have this definition that anything that machines can do is not
link |
intelligent and anything that they can't do is intelligent. Therefore, we narrow and narrow
link |
and narrow the field of what intelligence truly means in terms of machines. It's not
link |
intelligent anymore. I feel like I was doing the same thing with myself. As soon as I could solve
link |
something, it was the kind of thing that a kid like me could solve. And therefore, it was kind of
link |
easy. But to the others, it seemed hard. But to me, it seemed easy. So it was this kind of thing
link |
that everything that my colleagues were doing seemed impossible to me. But everything that I
link |
was doing seemed impossible to them. So it was that realization that sort of made me mature into
link |
sort of a not more confident, but more comfortable human being.
link |
Can you actually linger on that a little bit? I mean, you mentioned Minsky. I remember he said
link |
something in an interview where he said the secret to his, like the way he approached life was
link |
to never be happy with anything he did. So there's something powerful as a motivator
link |
to doing exactly what you're saying, which is everything you've achieved to see that as easy
link |
and unimpressive. What do you do with that? Because clearly, that's a useful thing.
link |
I think I've kind of matured past that. And I think the maturity past that is to sort of accept
link |
what it is and accept that it has helped others build onto it. And therefore, advanced human
link |
knowledge. So it's very easy to sort of fall into the trap of, oh, everything I've done is crap.
link |
What I told you last time is that I always told my students that our best work is ahead of us.
link |
And I think that's more of my mindset. That's a beautiful way to put it.
link |
Exactly. What we've done is great. It's great for the time. And it'll become obsolete in 30 years.
link |
Not we can. We are doing even better. Exactly. So basically, our next work will just strive.
link |
And again, you can't let the perfect be the end of the good. At some point, you have to wrap.
link |
I was having a meeting with my student yesterday, and it was like, listen, we know this is not
link |
perfect, but it's way better than anything that's ever been done before. You know how to improve it.
link |
But if you try to, your paper is never going to get published. So there's this balance of
link |
we're already at the top of the field. Get it out. And then you work on the next improvement.
link |
And in my experience, this has never happened. We've never actually worked on the next
link |
improvement. And that's okay. It didn't make a difference because you're basically putting
link |
a new stepping stone that others will be able to step on and surpass you. My advisor in grad school
link |
would basically tell me, Annalis, let others write the second paper in that field.
link |
Just write the first one, move on, move on to the next field. You don't want to be writing the
link |
second and the third and the fourth and the fifth paper in the same field. Just,
link |
and it's very shocking to a student to hear that because I was like, I was at the top of my game.
link |
I was owning that field and I published the first paper. I'm like, I'm ready for two and three and
link |
four. He's like, move on, just let it be. And I was like, whoa. And it's so liberating to sort of
link |
not have to surpass everyone, but just put your little stepping stone out there. And others will
link |
step on it and put their own stones further and eventually cross a bigger river than if you try
link |
to sort of make a giant leap all at once. So you need both.
link |
Beautifully put. So the funny thing is, I believe I closed the previous episode with a Darwin quote
link |
about the power of poetry and music and life. I think your quote, and again, I only heard once,
link |
was Darwin basically saying, if I were to live life again next time, I would read more poetry
link |
and something about art every week or something like that. Yeah. Yeah.
link |
It's so interesting for somebody who studied life at a very cold, I would say genetic level to say
link |
that, yeah, the highest form of living is the art. But like on that, which made me realize that you
link |
write poetry and I forced you or maybe convinced you somehow to maybe share if it's possible,
link |
if it's okay, some of the poetry you've written yourself in your life.
link |
So again, being Greek, a lot of my poems have been pretty miserable. And I always like to say
link |
that it's very hard for me to write a poem without what I'm happy. And I just have to be in a state
link |
of deep despair in order to write poems. But the first poem I ever wrote was in English class.
link |
I was, I'm Greek, I grew up in Greece, but I was in a French high school and I was taking English
link |
as a foreign language. So the English teacher basically asked us to write a poem in English.
link |
So this is basically what what I'm going to embarrass myself and read from my 16 year old
link |
self many, many years ago. Can you give a little bit more context about who you were in this moment?
link |
So here's what's really interesting. In terms of growing up, how do we grow up?
link |
It's very difficult to grow up if you're in the same school going from one class to the other,
link |
and all your friends know you inside out. It's very difficult to change. It's very difficult to
link |
grow up because they have a certain set of expectations for who you are and for how you're
link |
going to behave. So in many ways, we kind of tend to get set in our ways and not change very much.
link |
I think something that helped me grow up is that when I was 11 years old, I was a kid in Greece
link |
in primary school. When I was 12 years old, I was a kid in Greece in a, you know, first year of high
link |
school. When I was 13, I was in France. So basically moved countries and schools. The next year,
link |
I moved schools again because it was a transition in the French educational system from one school
link |
to the next. The next year after that, my family moved to New York in a French high school there.
link |
And then the next year after that, I'm moving to MIT. So basically between 11 and 19, every
link |
single year, I actually had the opportunity to grow. I was not held by people who knew me
link |
and I could reinvent myself or reshape myself or reshape my, you know, sort of personality,
link |
my emotions, my, you know, as I was growing up, especially in such a transformative time of a
link |
kid's life from 11 to 17. Okay, first of all, it's so powerful that you think of it that way. Did
link |
you think of it that way at the moment? Because it's kind of a source that you set an opportunity
link |
to grow. It's kind of suffering. I mean, you're being torn away from the thing you know into a
link |
thing you don't know. So when we moved from South France to New York, I was pissed. I was pissed.
link |
I was taking these long bike rides in the countryside, jumping in French swimming pools,
link |
and I had all these wonderful friendships going downtown and just staying by the fountains in
link |
the dim lit streets of Exxon Provence in the south of France. It was magical. And suddenly,
link |
I moved to New York City, a city of cement, of ugliness, like trash in the streets at every
link |
corner. It's horrible. Snow everywhere. Having never seen snow or like real snow in my life.
link |
I moved from Athens to South France to Southern New York. So I was pissed. But
link |
whether I saw it as an opportunity for growth, I don't think so. I don't think that I was that
link |
self reflective. It was just how it happened. I saw it like that probably pretty early on,
link |
but not during those transitions. So basically, during those transitions, I was just a kid,
link |
being a kid. And maybe the time that I started seeing it that way was maybe when I decided
link |
to stay at MIT as a professor after having been there as a student. And I kind of saw the struggle
link |
of getting professors to not see you as a kid when they're your peers. And it was very flattered when
link |
one of my friends basically told me, oh, I remember you in recitation. When you first asked me a
link |
question, I said, wow, this kid, I'll pay attention. One day will be a peer. So it's, you know,
link |
certainly my perception was that many of them could not see me as anything but a kid. But
link |
it turns out that some of them saw me as something different than a kid even before.
link |
I was actually their colleague. So it's kind of an interesting place because what I like to say
link |
about MIT is that people treat you as equal no matter what stage. And they respect you for
link |
what you say, not for who you are when you're saying it. And if I'm wrong, my students will
link |
tell me they will have no reservation to just be bluntly, you know, sorry. I don't agree with that.
link |
Yeah, I mean, the beautiful thing about you is, sorry to put it this way is,
link |
you know, maybe people who weren't familiar with your work beforehand might think,
link |
like, might not realize that you're a world class scientist who leads a large group and so on.
link |
They, because there's a youthful nature to you that it's, I mean, you talk like a first, like
link |
an undergrad, you know, with the excitement and the fresh eyes and the sort of excitement about
link |
the world. And that's, first of all, super contagious and beautiful. You know, it's easy to sort of fall
link |
into behaving seriously because then people kind of start putting you on a pedestal more into a
link |
position of power. You want to sort of act like you're in a position of power as opposed to allowing
link |
yourself to be lost in just the curiosity, the childish view of the world, which is just this
link |
open eyed love of knowledge. And that was the transition that I was describing when I decided
link |
to go back to my rollerblades and t shirt and baseball cap. Basically, you know, when I met
link |
my first postdoc, it was basically, you know, he was interviewing for postdocs at MIT. He already
link |
had several first author papers to his name in top journals. And my friend, Julia, basically
link |
introduced me to Alex Stark, who basically was interviewing at the time with Rick Young and
link |
with Eric Lander, just like these massive names in the field. And I was just a first year faculty
link |
person with, you know, zero credibility. And she basically says, Oh, there's this friend of mine,
link |
Alex, who's visiting. He's also German. You know, he wanted to meet you. I'm like, Oh,
link |
sounds great. I'd love to talk science. I show up. We sit at the amphitheater in Stada.
link |
You know, I basically arrive in my rollerblades, you know, jump a few steps, sit down, wearing
link |
my blades. We're having this awesome conversation about science and about gene regulation and how
link |
the whole thing works. And sort of, you know, my perspective and his perspective, we're just
link |
passing ideas for 30 minutes. And then I just dash off to my next meeting. And he basically
link |
emails me afterwards. And I was giving him advice about how to interview with Eric Lander,
link |
how to interview with Rick Young and how to sort of get a position with them. And then after,
link |
after a while, he emails me saying, I would love to become a postdoc in your group. I'm like,
link |
what? Are you kidding me? So, so he basically didn't care that I wear rollerblades and t shirt.
link |
All he cared about was my ideas and sort of embracing the me with the childhood excitement
link |
about science was basically what attracted him. It wasn't the, wow, this guy runs a big lab or
link |
this and that. It was just like, I like his ideas. I want to work with him.
link |
That, by the way, folks is the best of MIT. That's what MIT stands for. So that's a beautiful,
link |
that's a beautiful story. But take me back to the poem and where did this poem come from?
link |
So now, where's your mindset? So who is the 17, 16 year old kid, Manolis?
link |
So again, I've just seen snow for the first time and I'm in New York.
link |
This is New York. So I'm, you know, maybe that's where the sadness in the poem comes from. But
link |
anyway, we're asked in class to write an assignment. This is my third language. I'm not very good at it.
link |
So pardon me, but here's what I wrote. Children dance now all in row. Children laughing at the
link |
snow. But in times endless flow, children sooner or later grow. Men are mortal. We go by. If we
link |
know it, we may cry. But I thought a love so sweet was immortal was so deep. There I told you,
link |
darling sweet, that forever love would keep. Blossom spring and summer shined. Then blue
link |
autumn, winter died. One year passed, but the clouds still remember all our vows.
link |
Never faked and never lied. All we did was stare and smile. All alone, sitting down, to the snow
link |
we made our vow. But you told me you were right. Birds who love are birds who cry.
link |
Now, with laughter, children play, yet the sky is so gray. Even if the snow seems bright,
link |
without you have lost their light. Sun that sang and moon that smiled. All the stars have ceased
link |
to shine. All of nature drew its grace, found its light within your face. Now you're gone
link |
and won't return. Let the snow in my heart burn. There's a Greek. That's beautiful. That's beautiful,
link |
by the way. And the rhyming, the musicality. There's a, there's a, both a simplicity.
link |
I'm 16. And a musicality too.
link |
No, no, no. But like, so I really enjoy like Robert Frost poems. I don't mean simplicity in a bad way
link |
and a negative way at all. Again, it's very weird to analyze your own poem, but I think it captures
link |
the simplicity of youth and the way that it kind of starts with children dance like only
link |
low. It basically, and it kind of shows that snow can be interpreted first in the first verse
link |
as a happy thing. And then in the end, you know, now with laughter, children play, I'm like,
link |
now I've grown basically. It's, it's this transformation that we're actually talking
link |
about. These whole men are mortal. We go by. I'm sort of, you know, you're saying,
link |
are you comfortable with growing old? I'm like, duh, I was, I was, since I was 16. Yeah. And
link |
what's really interesting is that, you know, again, when I was 12 years old in our summer house in
link |
Greece, I remember sort of telling my sister my outlook that I would have as a father for how
link |
to bring up my own kids. So it was, it's very weird that I've always sort of seen the full path
link |
from, you know, a kid. When you were young. Yeah. I don't know if you'd like this Johnny Mitchell
link |
song. I've looked at clouds from both sides now, from up and down and still somehow it's
link |
no zillusions I recall. It's clouds illusions I recall. I really don't know clouds at all.
link |
So it's, it's really beautiful. So, so I think the Johnny Mitchell song, which again, I heard for
link |
the first time much, much after this. And I wouldn't even compare this to that. But what
link |
Johnny Mitchell is saying that song is that you can see life from two perspectives.
link |
You can see the good or the bad in both, you know, in everything you see. And I think that's the
link |
allegory of snow right now. You can see snow as this bright, white, wonderful thing, or you can
link |
see snow as this miserable, you know, gray thing. So that sort of, and what I like about the last
link |
verse now with laughter children play is that it's a recall to the first one where I was the kid
link |
I was the kid enjoying careless life and eventually was making promises that something would be
link |
forever. And I think part of that is also the loss of my friendships in France, of being in New
link |
York now and sort of everything's gray. And, you know, even though the snow seems bright,
link |
without you have lost their light, sun that sang and moon that smiled. So it's this
link |
concept that if you lose your love, the same thing can be perceived in a very different way.
link |
Let me ask you this, because somebody wrote me this long email.
link |
And I think you're the perfect person to ask this. You mentioned love
link |
from a genetic perspective. What is it? What do you make of love? Why do we humans fall in love?
link |
In your own life, why did you fall in love? You know, the email that was written to me was,
link |
you always talk about mortality and fear of mortality, but you don't ask about love.
link |
So I don't know if there's some thoughts you could give about the role of love in your own life,
link |
or the role of life, the role of love in human life in general.
link |
I think love in many ways defines my life. It's basically, I like to say that I'm a human first
link |
and a professor second. And I think this passion for life, this passion for everything around us,
link |
I mean, the only way to describe that is love. It's basically embracing your emotional self,
link |
embracing the, you know, the non brainiac in you, embracing the sort of intangible, the
link |
not very well defined. And even in my own research, I'm just very passionate about everything I do.
link |
There's a certain passion that comes through. And what, I'm sorry, again, being Greek,
link |
the etymology of the word passion, what was passion? Passion is suffering.
link |
The etymology, I mean, when we talk about the passion of the Christ, it's a suffering.
link |
And in the Greek version of that word, pathos, like pathology, pathos is deep suffering. It's
link |
the concept and someone who's sympathetic. Sympathetic means suffering together, experiencing
link |
emotions together. So it's funny that you ask me about love and I respond with passion,
link |
passion for life, passion for research, passion for my family, for my children, for, you know,
link |
so there's, there's a certain passion that defines me and everything else follows rather
link |
than the other way around. I'm not first thinking with my brain, what is the most
link |
impactful people we could write? And then going after that, I'm thinking with my heart,
link |
what am I passionate about? What drives me? What's just like, you know, makes me take.
link |
And that's a beautiful way to live. But I love it how the Greek part of you just kind of connects
link |
it to the suffering. So if you could remove the suffering, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
link |
when I say suffering, I don't mean suffering as in being miserable. I mean suffering as in
link |
being emotionally invested in something. Remember, I mean, again, if you, if you look at this
link |
poem, what is it saying? It's saying birds who love are birds who cry, right? It's that's the
link |
very definition of love, exposing your fragility. If you're not afraid of suffering, you don't fall
link |
in love. As soon as you hold back, you protect, you shield your heart. No love can enter.
link |
So there's this Simon and Garfunkel song. I am a rock. I am an island. And a rock feels no pain.
link |
And an island never cries. So again, there's some aspect of that into this poem. The, you know,
link |
the fact that, you know, but you told me, you know, there I told you darling sweet that forever
link |
love would keep is this intermediate thing. And then there's a recall, but you told me you were
link |
right birds who love or birds who cry. So it basically says that love is the fragility
link |
that you're willing to gift another person. It's opening up your vulnerable spots. It's sort of
link |
accepting that there's no safety net. You're just giving yourself fully and you're ready to be hurt.
link |
So you've already been way too kind with your time, but I'm going to force you to stay here
link |
just a few minutes longer as we're talking about goodbyes. You have a really nice other poem here
link |
about goodbyes. Can I force you to read it as well? Oh, twist my arm, twist my arm. So the next poem
link |
was written specifically for our high school yearbook. So another poem written on demand. The
link |
rest of them are just so miserable written by pure, you know, sadness and melancholy. But this
link |
one was also written on demand. And it was basically saying goodbye, as is appropriate right now,
link |
to my friends and sort of again, reflecting this whole journey and transformation through life.
link |
And also, I think showing a little bit of introspection about how we kind of had it easy in
link |
high school. And we're about to go into rougher waters. So the title is actually the Tide Waters.
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And it's an analogy on that. So here it goes. All this was another lake where some rest we sail
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or stake. Waters calm and full of fish. We'll find there what we wish. Some seek fruit and others
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feast. Some of us just look for peace. Some find freshness. Other love. Some seek both and neither
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have. We were different when we came. Each his own story and fame. Different people had we been.
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Different cultures had we seen. Different nature. Different face. Each unlike all in this place.
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We had faith success, defeat. Then in one lake came to meet. There, the orders that we followed
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and the pride that we swallowed made us one but not the same. Joined us strangers who there came.
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Sooner, later, groups were made. Tribes where differences will fade. Some attached, more or
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less. Others fought and made a mess. But again we have to go. What for? Where to? We don't know.
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Still we know it. We will try. There to rush. To flee. To fly. There'll be some who wish to stay
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but they'll carry on away. We'll continue on our journey as we came here, strong yet lonely.
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From the lake a river flows. From the river many goals. On that river we will race.
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Each will try to find his pace. In that scene, the sailors face. Their first fear, defeat,
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disgrace. Here and there comes out a face that the waters soon embrace. Some get lucky,
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find their way. Others sink beneath the waves. In this race we will part. Some will settle near
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the start. Some set goals beyond the stars because the river carries far. You should know in what
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we've done the hard part is still to come. So I'll have to say goodbye. Don't you worry,
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I won't cry. Neither will they those who try till the end to keep their pride.
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But please know, dearest friends, who are always there to mend.
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I will always need your hand. I will miss you till the end.
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I don't think there's a better way to end it. Manolis, like I said last time you're one of
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the most special people at MIT, one of the most special people in Boston and whatever mental
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force field that you're applying in saying that Boston is the best city in the world,
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MIT the best university in the world, you're actually making it happen. So thank you so much
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for talking to this huge honor. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for listening to
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this conversation with Manolis Kellis and thank you to our sponsors, Public Goods, Magic Spoon,
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and ExpressVPN. Please check out these sponsors in the description to get a discount and to support
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this podcast. If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review with 5,000 Apple Podcasts,
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follow on Spotify, support on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Freedman.
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And now, let me leave you with some words from another well known Greek,
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Alexander the Third of Macedonia, commonly known as Alexander the Great.
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There is nothing impossible to him who will try. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.