back to indexRyan Hall: Martial Arts and the Philosophy of Violence, Power, and Grace | Lex Fridman Podcast #125
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The following is a conversation with Ryan Hall,
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one of the most insightful minds and systems thinkers
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in the martial arts world.
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He's a black belt in jiu jitsu, accomplished competitor,
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an MMA fighter undefeated in the UFC,
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and truly a philosopher who seeks to understand
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the underlying principles of the martial arts.
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Jiu jitsu is such an important part of who I am,
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and I was hoping to share that with folks
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who might know me only as a researcher.
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I think there's no better person to do that with than Ryan,
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who somehow, remarkably, I can say is a friend,
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and also a modern day warrior philosopher
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of the Miyamoto Masashi line of especially dangerous
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and brilliant humans.
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Also, his amazing wife, Jen Hall, was there as well,
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so if you hear a kind of voice of wisdom coming from above,
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you know who it is.
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Quick summary of the sponsors,
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PowerDot, Babbel, and Cash App.
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Please check out the sponsors in the description
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to get a discount and to support this podcast.
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As a side note, let me say that renaming this podcast
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to just my name gave me intellectual freedom
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that I really didn't anticipate was so empowering,
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especially for someone who's trying to find their voice.
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I hope you'll allow me the chance to really try and do that,
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to step outside of AI and even science, engineering,
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history, and so on, and on occasion,
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talk to athletes, musicians, writers,
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and maybe even comedians who inspire me,
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especially up and coming comedians and musicians
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like Eric Weinstein, who yes,
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we'll do a third conversation with soon.
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I think if I allow myself to expand the range
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of these conversations on occasion,
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when I do return to science and engineering,
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I'll bring a new perspective and also a little bit more fun
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and a few extra listeners
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that may not otherwise realize how fascinating
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artificial intelligence, robotics, mathematics,
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and engineering truly is.
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All that said, please skip the episodes
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that don't interest you.
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You don't have to listen to all of them.
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Trust me, as someone who is a bit or a lot OCD,
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that idea is quite unpleasant.
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But life, friends, is full of unpleasant things.
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But as Hunter S. Thompson suggested,
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and I suggest as well,
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you should still buy the ticket and take the ride.
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If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube,
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review it with five stars on Apple Podcast,
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follow on Spotify, support on Patreon,
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or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman.
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As usual, I'll do a few minutes of ads now
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and no ads in the middle.
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I try to make these interesting,
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but I give you the timestamp,
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so please skip if you don't want to listen to the ads,
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but it does mean a lot to me when you do.
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And still please do check out the sponsors
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by clicking on the links in the description.
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It really is the best way to support this podcast.
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This show is sponsored by Power Dot.
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Get it at PowerDot.com slash Lex
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and use code Lex at checkout to get 20% off.
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I use it for muscle recovery for legs and shoulders,
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but you can also use it to build muscle,
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endurance, or even just warm up.
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In fact, I first heard about this kind of
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electrical muscle stimulation device
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in reading that Bruce Lee used it.
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He was an inspiration to me
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as someone who practices first principles thinking,
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especially in a discipline
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where conventional thinking is everywhere.
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He created a martial art called Jeet Kune Do
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that is in many ways, at least philosophically
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in its hybrid approach,
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a precursor to modern day mixed martial arts.
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There's a special kind of deep philosophical thinking
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that combat athletes or jiu jitsu practitioners do
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that is unlike any other.
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I think it's grounded in the humbling process
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of getting your ass kicked a lot.
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That removes any illusion of intellectual superiority.
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I think the journey towards wisdom starts
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when you humbly admit to yourself
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that you know very little or almost nothing.
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Anyway, go to PowerDot.com slash Lex
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and use code Lex at checkout to get 20% off
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on top of the 30 day free trial.
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This show is also sponsored by Babbel,
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an app and website that gets you speaking
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in a new language within weeks.
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Go to Babbel.com and use code Lex to get three months free.
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They offer 14 languages, including Spanish, French,
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Italian, German, and yes, Russian.
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Let me read a few lines from a Russian song
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by Vladimir Vysotsky called
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Anna Bula V Parishe.
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You'll start to understand if you sign up to Babbel.
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The song always made me smile,
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because it resonates with my own life.
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It translates loosely to she's been to Paris.
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Paris for a Russian, I suppose, symbolizing a fancy life
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and that the guy can never quite fit into that kind of life.
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Expensive things, nice restaurants, cars, all that.
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I was thinking about what song's equivalent in English,
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maybe Uptown Girl by Billy Joe is similar in spirit,
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but very different in style.
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I just watched the video on YouTube for Uptown Girl
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and it's basically Billy Joe dressed up as a mechanic,
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but dancing in a way that I'm pretty sure
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no mechanic has ever danced,
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turning the old cringe factor up to 11.
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Anyway, I always felt like I didn't really fit in
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with the fancy people and that's what this song represents.
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But back to Babbel.
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Get started by visiting babbel.com
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and use code LEX to get three months free.
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This show is presented by the great, the powerful,
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the OG sponsor named unofficially
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after one of my favorite musicians,
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the man in black, Johnny Cash.
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That's Cash App, the number one finance app
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When you get it, use code LEX podcast.
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The Cash App folks are truly amazing people
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and are teaming with ideas for cool contests,
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giveaways and all that kind of stuff.
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I've been thinking of doing some kind of a little contest
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and giving away 42 bucks to a bunch of people who win.
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It's not so much about the money,
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but the glory and a delicious taste of victory.
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If you have ideas for a contest, let me know.
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I was thinking of something like asking people
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to submit funny, inspiring photos or videos or audio
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of using Cash App or any of the sponsors of this podcast,
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really, or maybe even just funny things related
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to the podcast, like different weird places
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you might be watching or listening to me right now.
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I'm pretty sure there's somebody out there right now
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sitting in a hot tub with some wine watching me say this.
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I salute you, sir or madam.
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I may be opening up some floodgates I deeply regret later,
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so please make sure you're wearing clothes
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and whatever you sent me.
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There'll be no naked people in the hot tub
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as part of this podcast.
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I have integrity and standards.
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Let me know in the comments what ideas
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for contests you might have.
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Again, if you get Cash App from the App Store or Google Play
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and use the code LexPodcast, you get $10,
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and Cash App will also donate $10 to FIRST,
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an organization that is helping to advance robotics
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and STEM education for young people around the world.
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And now, here's my conversation with Ryan Hall.
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Who, in your view, is the greatest warrior in history?
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Ancient or modern?
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That's a tough question, and again,
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I'm no historian by any measure,
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so I'll probably do the worst.
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It's like, what are your best bands ever?
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I'm like, Metallica, and you know, so I'll pick the...
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Metallica just came out with a new album,
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by the way, with an entire orchestra.
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That's kind of cool.
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Yeah. That's important.
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Metallica will always be one of the greatest.
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Yeah, that's right.
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So I agree with you.
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They were a bad example.
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They were a well known, yet awesome band.
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Let me say it's like Nickelback or something like that.
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I mean, that feels cheap
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because everyone makes fun of Nickelback.
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I guess it depends on how you want to define warrior.
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Something that I think about
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when it comes to trying to evaluate
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various people or situations
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or things that I've read about or heard about
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are the circumstances that they were involved in
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because I think a lot of times
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it's easy to look at the outcomes,
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and obviously we live in an outcome driven world
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and outcomes do matter,
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but at the same time, you look at,
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let's say what Cuba's been able to pull off
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from a combat sports perspective, it's staggering.
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The amount of successful Olympic level competitors
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they have in wrestling, boxing, judo.
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I mean, they're a tiny little island
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with no money and no people.
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You know, when you think about the Olympics
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and the United States doing well,
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of course we should do well.
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I mean, Russia should do well.
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China should do well.
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India should do better than they do, honestly.
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Obviously it means like they're not into it as much
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or at least certain sports
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because they have the resources people wise.
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So talent's not going to be an issue.
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So there's something to like
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where the starting point is.
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Like that's the argument with like,
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why people say Maradona,
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I don't know if you're into soccer, okay.
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They say Maradona is better than Messi
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because he basically carried the team
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and won the World Cup with a team
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that wouldn't otherwise win the World Cup.
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And then Messi was only successful in Barcelona
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because he has like superstars,
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he's playing with other superstars.
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Yeah, that's fair to say.
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I mean, like you're not,
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there's a lot of factors that go into,
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let's say winning a soccer game.
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And obviously Barcelona,
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particularly for various points in time
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had a ridiculous all star squad of world class players.
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But let's say for instance,
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maybe they didn't have the creative players in Argentina.
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They needed to get the ball up to Messi.
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They didn't have like the NES
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and again the backing there in the midfield.
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But because obviously Argentina's always had
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ridiculous attacking players,
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like even alongside Messi,
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but they're like the three killers up front
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and then a little less behind.
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So it's interesting you say that
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depends how you define warrior
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because you can probably take like
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some of the civil rights leaders,
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you can go into that direction,
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like leaders in general.
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But if we just look at like
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the greatest martial artists in history in that direction,
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do you have somebody in mind?
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I would say at least three that pop into my head
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and would be Hannibal, Alexander the Great,
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and then maybe Miyamoto Musashi,
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the two commanders and then one guy.
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But so it's interesting.
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And then again, you mentioned warriors
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being able to make a lot out of a little.
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Musashi's famous for winning duels
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that were oftentimes one on one.
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The Alexander and Hannibal were military commanders
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and one of them faced Rome.
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And that was an interesting thing.
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Oftentimes coming up with novel tactics,
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different strategies, sometimes under resourced,
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having to do novel and crazy things,
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there's skin in the game.
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That's an interesting thing too.
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I think a lot of times it's,
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if you're playing a video game,
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I don't think you can be a warrior
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because there's no skin in the game.
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You get hurt, you lose, that's a bummer.
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It stings a little bit,
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maybe it makes you feel slightly disappointed,
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but Musashi loses, he loses.
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Hannibal loses, he loses.
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Alexander loses, he loses.
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And they lose, I guess the people around them lose.
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So that's almost like you could use,
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even from a combat sports perspective, Muhammad Ali,
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I mean, you consider also their quality of opposition.
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Musashi was fighting high quality opposition.
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Obviously Hannibal and Alexander, particularly Hannibal,
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were fighting unbelievable opposition.
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Muhammad Ali fought phenomenal opposition,
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but he had skin in the game both in the ring and out.
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And that actually meshes with, as you mentioned,
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like a civil rights type of situation
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where you are under resourced,
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you're pushing the stone uphill.
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And that was a neat thing I think about Muhammad Ali
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was how much personal conviction the man had to have
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in order to pull off what he was able to pull off
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both in and outside of the ring.
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And that reminds me of, again,
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some of the other great leaders
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or great fighters throughout history.
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So what do you make of the kind of very difficult idea
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that some of these conquerors like Alexander the Great
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and somebody that, if you listen to Hardcore History,
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oh, Dan Carlin, who apparently Elon Musk
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is also a big fan of, is the Genghis Khan episode.
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A large percent of the world can call Genghis Khan
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So the difficult truth is about some of these conquerors
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is that there's a lot of murder and rape and pillage
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and stealing of resources and all that kind of stuff.
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And yet they're often remembered as quite honorable.
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I mean, in the case of Genghis Khan,
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there's a lot of people who argue,
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if you look at historically the way it's described
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in full context, is he was ultimately,
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given the time, he was a liberator.
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He was a progressive, I should say.
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In terms of the violence and the atrocities he committed,
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he, at least in the stories, has always provided the option
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of not to do that.
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It's only if you resist, do,
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so you basically have the option,
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do you wanna join us or do you want to die?
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That's the progressive sort of,
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that's the Bernie Sanders of the era.
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So what do you make of that?
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That there's so much of these great conquerors,
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there's so much murder that to us now would just seem insane.
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It's funny you mention it.
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I think that maybe it's a human nature thing
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that we want to, or maybe a misunderstanding thing
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that we want to cast all of our characters and ourselves
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maybe as entirely good or as entirely negative
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when I guess the phrase or the saying,
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one man's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist,
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And a lot of times I think you can understand
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as long as you're able to look
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from various people's perspective.
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Like if you look at the TV show, The Wire,
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which was obviously widely, everybody loves The Wire.
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I thought that there were everyone,
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I'm not saying anything that's not been said before,
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compelling characters from all angles,
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whether you like the character, dislike the character,
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you were able to understand the motivations of people
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doing various things.
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Even if they did wrongly, they did rightly.
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We want to cast all of the demons throughout history
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as completely inhuman when I think that makes it difficult
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for us to understand them.
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And we want to look back at the people
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that we think of as great and entirely great.
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And I think that we're experiencing the problems with this
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even right now, socially and politically
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as we're trying to look back and decide
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the people we thought were good or not good
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or people we thought were bad are now good
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rather than going, hey, there's good and bad to all things.
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And there are, as you mentioned, the Genghis Khan thing,
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you don't have to fight back.
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You do, I respect you for it,
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but then we're gonna have a conflict
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and then we'll see what happens.
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And if you lose, you're gonna be sorry that you did
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because I have to make it that way.
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If I want to continue utilizing this kind of MO
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because I need to discourage the next guy
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from doing what you're doing right now.
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And ultimately though, I guess that's an interesting thing.
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Imagine you put every single person
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on planet earth in a cage, crime drops, all sorts.
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There are certain positives to that.
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And it's just, things are as they are, it's difficult,
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but that is ultimately more the law of the jungle.
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And I think that we're able to supersede some of that now
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in modern times and I think we're fortunate.
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But as you mentioned, we look back and say,
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oh, this is horrible.
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Say, no, that just is what it is.
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That's how life is at a base level.
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And again, if you're a lion and I'm a gazelle,
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I don't really like it very much,
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but we don't call the lion the bad guy.
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We don't sanctify the gazelle or the other way around.
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So it's just, it's interesting when you pull back
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some of the controls that we put on our behavior
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and in modern life,
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which I think are generally speaking positive,
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we get down to how things often are.
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And at the same time, we could,
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modern life was built by people like Genghis Khan.
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So then you get down to the ends justifying the means.
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It's a tough question.
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These aren't things with easy answers,
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or at least if they are, I certainly don't have the smarts
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to figure out the answers to them, but it's difficult.
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I would just say people in the world are complicated
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and layered and depending upon which side of the line
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you're standing on at various times,
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you may like or dislike someone,
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but I can't remember whose idea it was,
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this is killing me, but it's the veil of ignorance,
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I guess, the philosophical idea of the veil of ignorance
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where I go, is sticking everyone in the cage
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the right thing to do?
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Or everyone but me, and I say, well, no, why?
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Well, it would make my life easier
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if I just went over and took all of your stuff
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as long as you couldn't stop me.
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I mean, of course that's a great idea.
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That's what everyone does in every video game.
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But in Skyrim, you steal stuff when people aren't around.
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But ultimately you go, well,
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this isn't the right thing to do
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because if I were on the other side of it,
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I would not appreciate it.
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It's inherently not a good thing to do.
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I'm only doing it because I think I'm gonna win.
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And that's a fine way to be,
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but you don't have the white hat on, I guess I would say.
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So I think without those philosophical underpinnings
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to rein us in, I guess, morally speaking,
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it's very difficult to say what's right or wrong.
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And you'd say certain actions have a reaction,
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almost like a physics sense.
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If you kill everyone in your way
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for as long as you're able to, your life will be easier.
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I mean, you're setting the table for someone
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doing the same to you when you're no longer the tough guy,
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but it is what it is.
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Yeah, if you look at like the Instagram channel,
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nature is metal, it hurts my heart to watch,
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to remind me, a comfortable descendant of ape,
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how vicious nature is, just unapologetically, just,
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I mean, there's a process to it where the bad guy always wins.
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The violence is the solution to most problems,
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or the flip side of that running away from violence
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is the solution depending on your skillset.
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And it's funny to think of us humans
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with our extra little piece of brain
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that we're somehow trying to figure out,
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like you said, in a philosophical way,
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how to supersede that, how to like move past the viciousness,
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the cruelty, just the cold exchange of nature.
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But perhaps it's not so, maybe that is nature,
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maybe that's the way of life, maybe we're trying too hard to,
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we're being too egotistical and thinking we're somehow
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separate from nature, we're somehow distant
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from that very thing.
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I couldn't agree with you more.
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In fact, I think actually Orson Scott Card,
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who's the writer of a great book called Ender's Game,
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this was a statement that the main character,
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Ender, made in the book.
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His brother was brilliant.
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His brother was like kind of sociopathic brilliant kid
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that ended up kicked out of the school
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that they were all into for Battle Commander.
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Dealing with his brother taught him that ultimately strength,
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courage, the ability to do violence
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for all the good and the bad of that
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is one of the fundamental most important things
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to be able to do in life,
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because if you can't cause destruction,
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if you can't cause pain,
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you will be forever subject to those who can.
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And I think that you mentioned egotism.
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I think that that's a disease
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that could obviously strike any of us,
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but it's something that we're looking at now.
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We're, I think we should be unbelievably thankful
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as people that live in the world that we do
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that we can walk down the street
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without having to worry that I'm like,
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well, don't worry that that's six foot six,
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270 pound person over there is just gonna leave me alone.
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And I have a Rolex on, but whatever, I'll be fine.
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Because that person is deciding to leave me alone
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because we've all agreed to live in this relatively sane
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and or constrained society because it benefits all of us.
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And we're doing it because of a philosophical underpinning,
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not because nature dictates it be that way,
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because nature dictates it go in a very,
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very different direction.
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And the only person,
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the only thing stopping that person
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from doing something to me is either me, that person,
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or someone else that will stand in between us.
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And if I can't do it,
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and there's no one there to stand in between us,
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then the only thing stopping that person is that person.
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And I have to hope that they're either disinterested
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or disinclined to do that sort of thing.
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And I think that it's keeping in mind
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that that is the fundamental nature of the world,
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whether we like it or not is important.
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And I think the quest to fundamentally alter human nature
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is gonna be ultimately fruitless.
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And then also it's, it is a little bit egotistical.
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A lion does what a lion does.
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We can try to box it in and we can try to guide
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this direction, that direction.
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But nature is as it is and as it always will be
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unless we wanna start to constrain it significantly.
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But now I'm starting to get into individual rights
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who put me in charge,
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who says that I should be the one
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to make the choices constraining
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because many of the most awful things
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that have happened throughout history,
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one group or one person has decided to constrain others.
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And we don't like Genghis Khan doing that.
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Well, I'll do that on a little level.
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Are there gonna be benefits and beneficiaries?
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Absolutely, but there'll be losers in that too.
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So I guess it's a dangerous game.
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It's almost like putting on the one ring.
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You remember when Frodo offered the one ring to Gandalf
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and Gandalf said, no, no, I would take it away.
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I would put it on.
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I would use it out of the desire to do good.
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But through me, it would wield a power so terrible
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you can't imagine.
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I think that's the big question for anyone that decides
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that's able to have reach and able to have power.
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I mean, obviously I can't speak to that,
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but imagine you did have national level,
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global level power.
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How would you use it?
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Would you try to change the world?
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Would you be glad that you did down the line?
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Yeah, that's the thing we're struggling now as a society.
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Maybe it'd be nice to get your quick comment on that,
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which is the people who have traditionally been powerless
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are now seeking a fairer society, a more equal society.
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And in attaining more power justly,
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there's also a realization, at least from my perspective,
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that power corrupts everyone.
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Even if the flag you wave is that of justice, right?
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And so, not to overuse the term, but it'd be nice
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if you have thoughts about the whole idea of cancel culture
link |
and the internet and Twitter and so on,
link |
where there's nuanced, difficult discussions of race,
link |
of gender, of fairness, equality, justice,
link |
all of these kinds of things.
link |
There's a shouting down oftentimes of nuanced discussion
link |
of kind of trying to reason through these very difficult issues,
link |
through our history, through what our future looks like.
link |
Do you have thoughts about the internet discourse
link |
that's going on now?
link |
Is there something positive?
link |
Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting thing to see.
link |
I guess, as you mentioned,
link |
anytime you're wielding power, whomever you are,
link |
doing so carefully is important.
link |
And it's very, very easy to look at the people that have power
link |
and that are using it poorly or have used it poorly
link |
and go, hey, you're the bad guy.
link |
And then go, well, of course, if I had power,
link |
I'll use it properly and I may intend to use it properly
link |
But at the same time, we see a lot of times
link |
people are people are people.
link |
I think that a lot of the...
link |
I think if you believe that human beings are all one,
link |
which I do, no matter whether you're here or there,
link |
you got two arms, two legs, a heart, a brain,
link |
we all live a similar experience.
link |
And obviously, with variations on a theme,
link |
but you're no less a human being.
link |
If you're a person I've never met from China,
link |
than some person in Virginia, we're all people.
link |
And I guess, ultimately, if I believe that human beings
link |
are corruptible and that power corrupts
link |
and that we're all fallible and we say and do things
link |
that either intentionally or unintentionally
link |
that we wish we'd not, I think that I have to allow
link |
for a space, I guess the word, it's almost a religious term,
link |
but I guess I would just say grace.
link |
And that's something that I see disappearing from discourse
link |
in the public, or maybe it wasn't there, I'm not sure,
link |
but it's interesting watching this occur on the internet
link |
because also now no longer are you and I just having a talk
link |
sitting on a bus stop, it's now in writing.
link |
Everything's in writing.
link |
The old saying, don't put that in writing.
link |
You're like, don't put anything in writing.
link |
That's how you get in trouble.
link |
And basically, with the degree to which everything
link |
is recorded, but recorded in tiny little bites,
link |
it's very, very easy for me to wave every last little foolish,
link |
ignorant, incorrect, or correct thing that someone
link |
has ever said or done in their face to support whatever
link |
argument that I'm trying to make about them or a situation.
link |
And I think that you mentioned cancel culture,
link |
as it seems to exist.
link |
Obviously, this is poisonous on its face.
link |
This is poisonous.
link |
It's the sort of thing that doesn't incentivize
link |
I mean, you look at, let's say one of the great monsters
link |
of history, Adolf Hitler, obviously, who's done awful,
link |
awful things, but also for anyone that's even a minor
link |
student of history, did some positive things as well.
link |
I don't have to embroider this person's crimes.
link |
I don't have to act as if there was nothing good a monster has
link |
ever done and nothing bad that a great person throughout history
link |
But imagine the ghost of Adolf Hitler were to pop up and go,
link |
oh, my gosh, guys, I'm so sorry.
link |
I know what I've done, but I'd like to apologize and start
link |
Well, I mean, you'd hope that if he popped up over here,
link |
you'd go, well, I don't really like what you've done.
link |
And I don't like you.
link |
But at the same time, I'm glad to hear that you're attempting
link |
to make this right and push in a positive direction, even if
link |
you can't make it right.
link |
Because otherwise, what am I doing?
link |
I'm disincentivizing change for the better.
link |
I'm looking to wield whatever power I have in a punitive
link |
fashion, which does not encourage people to do anything
link |
other than double down on the wrongs that they've made,
link |
knowing that at least they're going to have some support from
link |
the people that support that.
link |
And I guess I want to, you would hopefully look at the use
link |
of the internet as a tool that can educate, and I guess I
link |
don't like the word empower, but empower people to do various
link |
things, extend their reach, but educate and learn rather than
link |
to further solidify little tribal things that exist, which
link |
I think everyone in humanity and human history is vulnerable
link |
I mean, look at the course of human history.
link |
It's deeply tribal.
link |
And the tribes or the groups that have been on top at various
link |
points in time have done a lot of times bad things to the
link |
ones that have not.
link |
And you'd hope that we could learn lessons from the past
link |
and rather than committing the crimes that were committed
link |
against us, recommitting them when we slide into the top
link |
position, say, I could do this now, but I'll not.
link |
I understand the urge to seek vengeance is strong.
link |
Anyone that says differently, I wouldn't trust.
link |
But at the same time, we have enough experience in history,
link |
enough experience in life, enough hopefully wisdom time in
link |
to go, this isn't the right answer.
link |
This is only going to replay the things.
link |
The worst parts of our history, not the best.
link |
And I want to encourage positive behavior.
link |
And if I just, again, further lash out at people, although
link |
understandably, done understandably, I'm simply just
link |
going to just perpetuate the cycle that's gone on to this
link |
So you hope that even though we're seeing a lot of turmoil
link |
societally at the moment and globally at the moment, that I
link |
guess our better angels can prevail at a certain point.
link |
But it's going to take a great deal of leadership.
link |
And I think that we're sorely missing like a Martin Luther
link |
King style character at the moment or a great leader.
link |
And I'm hoping that one will show up.
link |
And by the way, a word I don't hear often, and I think it's
link |
a beautiful one, which is grace.
link |
That's a really interesting word.
link |
I'm going to have to think about that.
link |
There is a religious component to it, but it's exactly right.
link |
You have to somehow walk the line between, you know, you
link |
I've been reading The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.
link |
I'm really thinking about the 1930s and what it's like to
link |
My concern is the economic pain that people are feeling now
link |
quietly is really a suffering that's not being heard.
link |
And there's echoes of that in the 20s and the 30s with the
link |
And there's a hunger for a charismatic leader.
link |
Like you said, there's a leader that could walk with grace,
link |
could inspire, could bring people together with sort of dreams
link |
of a better future that's positive.
link |
But Hitler did exactly everything that I just said, except
link |
for the word positive, which is he did give a dream to the
link |
German people who were great people, who are great people
link |
of a better future.
link |
It's just that a certain point that quickly turned into the
link |
better future requires literally expansion of more land.
link |
It started with, well, if we want to build a great Germany,
link |
we need a little bit more land.
link |
And so we need to kind of get Austria, then we need to kind
link |
of get France, mostly because France doesn't understand that
link |
more land is really useful.
link |
So we need to get rid of them.
link |
And look what they did to us in Versailles anyway.
link |
But so the Jewish, the Holocaust is a separate thing.
link |
Well, I don't know.
link |
I don't know what to think of it because so me being Jewish
link |
and having a lot of the echoes of the suffering is in my
link |
family or the people that are lost.
link |
I don't know because Hitler wrote all about it in Mein Kampf.
link |
So I don't know if the evil he committed was there all along.
link |
I mean, and that's where the question of forgiveness, I mean,
link |
Hitler is such a difficult person to talk about, but it's
link |
the question of cancer culture, who is deserving of forgiveness
link |
and who is not like the Holocaust survivors that I've read
link |
about that I've heard the interviews with.
link |
They've often spoken about the fact that the way for them
link |
to let go, to overcome the atrocities that they've experienced
link |
Like forgiveness is the way out for them.
link |
It's interesting to think about.
link |
I don't know if we're even as a society ready to even
link |
contemplate an idea of forgiveness for Hitler.
link |
It's an interesting idea though.
link |
It's a good thought exercise at the very least to think about
link |
like all these people that are being canceled for doing bad
link |
things of different degrees.
link |
Think of like Louis CK or somebody like that for being
link |
not a good person, but like, what is the path for forgiveness?
link |
And also what's a good person?
link |
What is a good person?
link |
If that's a sliding scale that we could all find ourselves
link |
looking at the uncomfortable end of a gun on, you know,
link |
particularly down the line.
link |
I mean, you hope for the best, but these definitions, I guess,
link |
like you said, are important and who's doing the canceling,
link |
who's being canceled.
link |
I'm not necessarily, as you said, saying that that's entirely
link |
unjustified or certainly not, it's certainly understandable.
link |
And particularly you mentioned like a monster, like an Adolf
link |
Hitler, but it's also interesting.
link |
I couldn't help but notice, like you mentioned as a society,
link |
us being able to apply forgiveness to someone who's
link |
done so much horror, but people who are personal, I mean,
link |
of course, many of us, so many people in person affected,
link |
but directly personally affected someone, a survivor of the
link |
Holocaust being able to let go on that.
link |
I'm nowhere near big enough a person for that sort of thing.
link |
But I guess that's an interesting thing, you know, being
link |
the person who was physically there, potentially able to
link |
let go, I don't know, that's unbelievably powerful.
link |
I guess you have to wonder sometimes, and this isn't
link |
obviously in regards to the Holocaust, but why I'm holding
link |
on to various things, have I, what is it doing for me and
link |
what is it doing to me?
link |
Is it facilitative, is it not?
link |
And I guess that's something else that I really want to
link |
talk about, something else that I really enjoy.
link |
When I was on Ultimate Fighter, they don't let you have any
link |
music or any books.
link |
I didn't have religious texts, so I brought a Bible and I
link |
brought a Quran and I started to read them side by side.
link |
And it was really interesting reading.
link |
The Bible's a little drier, the Quran's more interesting,
link |
But I think something that was consistently brought up was
link |
the way, most merciful.
link |
People want, I don't think any of us want justice.
link |
We think we want justice, but I don't think we want justice.
link |
This is a dangerous, dangerous, dangerous game, because maybe
link |
this person's wronged me deeply and I want justice.
link |
I want to balance it out, because what is justice if not
link |
a balancing of the scales?
link |
And sometimes you can understand it on a societal
link |
level, I think it's fine.
link |
I mean, there's crime and punishment and we can go for
link |
the benefits and the drawbacks of that.
link |
But I think what any of us want is mercy within reason, grace,
link |
as you mentioned, because justice is a very, very, very
link |
dangerous thing and it's a valuable and important thing.
link |
But who gets to decide what's just, what justice is actually
link |
Maybe I get to meet out justice, but it's not, I don't get
link |
Well, that sounds great, but what happens when it's pointed
link |
And I guess that comes back to the veil of ignorance, the
link |
idea that one day I will have to live in the world in which
link |
I've envisioned and the world in which I've created.
link |
I think that a lot of times people love the idea of they're
link |
a judge for your crimes and a lawyer for theirs.
link |
And I heard that the other day.
link |
I thought that was great.
link |
And I think that's a dangerous thing and hopefully it gives
link |
us all pause before rightly or wrongly, but always understandably
link |
wielding serious power.
link |
Justice is a kind of drug.
link |
So if you look at history, I've also been reading a lot
link |
I mean, all those folks really, I don't know what was inside
link |
Hitler's head actually that he's a tricky one because I think
link |
he was legitimately insane.
link |
And Stalin was like, he literally thought he's doing a good
link |
He literally thought for the entirety of the time that communism
link |
is going to bring, like that's the utopia and he's going to
link |
create a happy world.
link |
And in his, in his mind were ideas of justice, of fairness,
link |
of happiness, of, of yeah, human flourishing.
link |
And that's, that's a drug and it's somehow sadly pollutes the
link |
mind when you start thinking like that, what's good for
link |
society and believing that you have a good sense of what's
link |
That's intoxicating, especially when others around you are
link |
feeling the same way.
link |
And then you start like building up this movement and you
link |
forget that you are just like, you're, you're like barely
link |
recently evolved from an ape.
link |
Like you don't know what the hell you're doing.
link |
And then you start like killing witches or whatever.
link |
Like you start, you start doing.
link |
Let's be honest though.
link |
I mean, sometimes you got a witch has to go.
link |
We can all agree that a witch, a witch has to go if, if it
link |
floats or sinks, which one, I forget which one.
link |
Whichever one we need at the time, honestly.
link |
It should have sunk.
link |
Yeah, but yeah, we can definitely agree that witches
link |
have to go because you brought it up.
link |
I tweeted recently, but also just, I'm one of the things
link |
I'm really ashamed of in my life is I haven't really read
link |
almost any of the sci fi classics.
link |
So like I, my whole journey through reading was through
link |
like the literary philosophers that would say like Camus,
link |
Hase, Dostoevsky, Kafka, like that place, like that's a kind
link |
of sci fi world in itself, but it's, it just, it creates a
link |
world in which the, the deepest questions about human nature
link |
I didn't realize this, but the sci fi world is the same.
link |
It just puts it in a, it like removes it from any kind of
link |
historical context where you can explore those same ideas
link |
in like space somewhere elsewhere in a different time,
link |
a different place.
link |
It allows you almost like more freedom to like construct
link |
these artificial things where you can just do crazy, crazy
link |
kind of human experiments.
link |
So I'm now working through it.
link |
The books on my list are the foundation series by
link |
Isaac Asimov, Dune, Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson and
link |
Ender's Game, like you mentioned.
link |
That's just kind of, and then, so I posted that.
link |
And then of course, like Elon Musk, John Carmack, I don't
link |
know if you know him, creator of Doom and Quake.
link |
See, they all pitched in these nerds, these ultra nerds
link |
just started like going like these, you need to read this,
link |
that and the other.
link |
So I've like started working out.
link |
But it seems like the list I've mentioned holds up somewhat.
link |
Is there sci fi books or series or authors that you find
link |
Maybe another way to ask that is like, what's the greatest
link |
sci fi book of all time?
link |
Well, I'd like to start by sharing something that I'm
link |
embarrassed about is that I haven't read anything other
link |
than, you know, Orson Scott Card, J.R. Tolkien,
link |
Frank Herbert Tolkien.
link |
Yeah, I'm aware through Wikipedia and through surface
link |
reading of things that like a book called the Republic
link |
There were some other...
link |
Do you read Wikipedia?
link |
You're a prolific reader of Wikipedia articles.
link |
Well, or occasional.
link |
Occasional reader.
link |
In between whatever else it is that I waste my time on.
link |
But yeah, so I also, I should say, I posted on Reddit
link |
questions for Ryan Hall and there's like a million
link |
questions, but like half of them have to do with Dune.
link |
But like people bring up Dune.
link |
I don't understand why.
link |
Did you mention Dune before?
link |
Well, actually, we actually have a showy role actually
link |
made us a Gi, a Dune themed Gi one time, which I thought
link |
I'll give you one.
link |
We got extra stuff.
link |
But actually, to your point, actually, this is Orson Scott
link |
Card quote, actually the writer of Ender's Game.
link |
Fiction, because it's not about somebody who actually
link |
lived in the real world always has the possibility of being
link |
And I think that's a neat thing because I have heard other
link |
people whom I respect and very sharp people actually every
link |
now and then dig their heels and going, I don't like fiction.
link |
I only like nonfiction.
link |
It's more instructive.
link |
And I would go, I completely disagree with that.
link |
I think we have a hard enough time figuring out what happened
link |
at 711 three hours ago that, let me tell you what happened
link |
I'm like, hey, I'm interested.
link |
But don't tell me this isn't a story too.
link |
There's factual components, I have no doubt.
link |
But we struggle sometimes to like, I guess what I like
link |
about fiction is that you can tell me a story.
link |
It's all about people.
link |
I mean, every now there's more and less believable things.
link |
And I think Dune would be an unbelievably well written,
link |
in my opinion, for to run, what do I know?
link |
But I really liked doing, I'll say that well written example
link |
of human beings interacting with one another, the political
link |
component to that, the emotional, the intellectual, the
link |
relationship components, all of that.
link |
And I think that Dune is neat because it's a sci fi, not
link |
a sci fi novel, but only in the only in the loosest sense.
link |
It's really a story about religion, about group dynamics,
link |
about human potential, about belief, learning, politics,
link |
governance, ecology.
link |
It's the best stories remind me of history the same way
link |
history hopefully is not just a list of facts that I try to be
link |
able to recall or factoids that I try to recall, but a story
link |
that I can understand and see how the threads of time kind
link |
of came together and created certain things.
link |
And a lot of times, like we say, I'm like, how the heck is
link |
what's going on right now or 100 years from now or 100 years
link |
in the past happened.
link |
And you can look back far enough.
link |
If we had accurate knowledge, if we had that hypothetical
link |
perfect pool shot at the beginning of time, we would see
link |
an unbroken chain of events that led us to where we are and
link |
where we are will potentially lead us to where we're going,
link |
which is, again, why hindsight is helpful.
link |
But I think it's neat.
link |
Like, I guess I really enjoy, for instance, a book like
link |
Dune, and they're actually making a movie out of it, which
link |
I'm skeptical of, to be honest, because it's going to be
link |
difficult to bring that to the screen for a variety of
link |
reasons, but there's at least a hundred questions.
link |
Ask Ryan, what do you think about the new Dune movie?
link |
I am not enough of an authority to have any sort of decent
link |
opinion, but I guess what I would say is so much of it
link |
goes on in the character's mind.
link |
Like how much of any of our days is any lived experience,
link |
as it were, is internal, but the majority, how many times
link |
are people walking around and, you know, they're like, hey,
link |
what do you see right now?
link |
I'm like, oh, well, I see this picture.
link |
But really what I was paying attention to was what was
link |
going on inside of my head for a moment, and almost the rest
link |
of the world tuned out and kind of dimmed.
link |
And I guess I think that's going to be a struggle to any
link |
time you want to bring that type of a written story to a
link |
I think it's going to be more difficult, but it'll be
link |
It's definitely one of my favorite stories, and it's
link |
honestly helped me become better at life, in my opinion,
link |
better at martial arts.
link |
And I think the writer, I think Frank Herbert was absolutely
link |
brilliant, whether those were all his ideas, which are not
link |
None of us or all of our good ideas aren't ours.
link |
We're a combination.
link |
Maybe it came up with something you're a curator of other
link |
good ideas and some things you borrowed from somewhere
link |
without even realizing it.
link |
But I think the way the messages and the themes and the
link |
ideas that were conveyed, particularly in the original
link |
novel, are just absolutely brilliant.
link |
Is that to you one of the greats and the flip side of
link |
that, or another way to ask that is if somebody is new to
link |
sci fi, is that something you would recommend that is an
link |
I'm not well read enough in the sci fi world.
link |
I haven't read a lot of Isaac Asimov or anything like that,
link |
but I'll recommend Dune.
link |
I'll be an obnoxious evangelist for Dune to anyone who'll
link |
So yeah, I would strongly recommend it.
link |
So the other thing you mentioned, now I should
link |
probably be talking to you about much more important
link |
things, but the other thing is Skyrim.
link |
Do you play video games?
link |
What's your favorite game?
link |
What's what would you say is the greatest video game of
link |
Because I'm a huge fan of Elder Scrolls.
link |
I mean, I play a little bit at this point.
link |
You know, a little less finally moves into a new house.
link |
So you're like an adult.
link |
I'm like a better funded 12 year old.
link |
Yeah, that's yeah, that's entirely that's entirely
link |
Better funded 12 year old.
link |
But somewhat better funded 12 year old.
link |
Not as well funded as I wish.
link |
But historically, did you play video games?
link |
Oh, yeah, I played as a kid.
link |
I was, you know, again, I've always liked playing sports
link |
and liked reading and I always enjoyed video games.
link |
But my favorite video game I think I've ever played was
link |
Knights of the Old Republic.
link |
It was a Star Wars game.
link |
A huge Star Wars fan until it become less so recently.
link |
You don't like the, I haven't watched it yet.
link |
Oh, don't go there.
link |
Oh, actually, I like Mandalorian.
link |
That was actually pretty cool.
link |
Yeah, waving this off.
link |
Yeah, yeah, I will.
link |
If I could cancel one thing, I would cancel Disney Star Wars.
link |
I'm going to edit that part out.
link |
Okay, let's go to the next.
link |
But this is where if people are wondering if you're watching
link |
this on YouTube and like the dislike amount is like 80%
link |
it's because of that comment.
link |
Good job for making the internet hate you.
link |
Now, what about Baby Yoda?
link |
Yeah, I guess he's like little.
link |
He's got ears and he uses the force sometimes and he passes
link |
No qualms with Baby Yoda.
link |
Yeah, you don't have a heart.
link |
Okay, let's go to Jiu Jitsu if it's okay.
link |
So the audience of this podcast may not know much about Jiu Jitsu
link |
or they do because it's really part of the culture now,
link |
but they don't really know much.
link |
They see that so many people have fallen in love with it,
link |
have been transformed through it, but they don't know much
link |
about like, what is this thing?
link |
Is there a way you could sort of try to explain what is
link |
Jiu Jitsu, what is the essence of this martial art that's
link |
captured the minds and hearts of so many people in the world?
link |
I think that Jiu Jitsu is a philosophy that's expressed
link |
physically and that it's the kind of development of the
link |
mental capacity and physical capacity working in unison to
link |
move efficiently and almost flowingly, unresistingly with
link |
a given situation, with a physically resisting opponent.
link |
Learning how to generate force on your own and how to steal
link |
force from the floor, how to steal force from the other
link |
person and move in concert with it as opposed to clash
link |
against, which if you watch two untrained people fight,
link |
it's almost entirely a clash.
link |
It's a runaway and clash, a runaway and clash.
link |
If you watch Jiu Jitsu done well, it looks like water
link |
moving around a solid structure.
link |
And I think that that is expressed physically.
link |
And I think that all of the things that anyone has really
link |
been able to do very, very well in Jiu Jitsu end up kind
link |
of exemplifying that.
link |
But I think that's true of martial arts in general.
link |
I think that a lot of times like the clashing that we see
link |
going on and working well is just the fact that it's
link |
you know, you get very, very physically powerful people
link |
every now and then they're able to get away with this.
link |
But I don't think that that's, and that's fantastic
link |
because ultimately it's a results driven thing.
link |
But I think that the essence of the martial arts is learning
link |
how to make more out of less and how to move with
link |
and be yielding, almost like real life Aikido.
link |
And so you think of martial arts, Jiu Jitsu as like water
link |
or flowing, so Aikido, so moving around a solid structure
link |
so Aikido, so moving around the force as opposed to sort of
link |
maybe the wrestling mindset is finding a leverage
link |
where you can apply an exceptional amount of force.
link |
So like, so like maximizing the application of force.
link |
I guess maybe that's a better way to, I'd like to marry
link |
the two ideas, you know, because I think you flow
link |
until the point at which you are the greater force
link |
at which point in time you can apply.
link |
But if you look at the best wrestlers and then when I say
link |
best, I don't necessarily mean most successful
link |
although of course most successful are always very
link |
very good throughout the course of history in boxing
link |
in wrestling, in Judo, they're magical.
link |
They disappear and reappear.
link |
It's like fighting a ghost that is like incorporeal
link |
when you want to find it.
link |
But then when you don't want it to find it
link |
when you don't want to find it, it finds you.
link |
And I think that we see that in the like the Bufais
link |
or societies of wrestling.
link |
And you know, I guess you could look at a Floyd Mayweather
link |
or Willie Pep or you know, Prunell Whitaker in boxing
link |
as brilliant examples of disappearing and reappearing.
link |
And when you're strong, it's almost like guerrilla warfare.
link |
When you're strong, I'm nowhere to be found.
link |
When you're weak, you can't get rid of me.
link |
And I think that's what we're looking for.
link |
Yes, the TF brothers are incredible at that.
link |
They just, they look like skinny Starbucks baristas
link |
and they just manhandle everybody like effortlessly.
link |
They look like they just kind of woke up,
link |
rolled out of bed, fighting for like the gold medal
link |
at the Olympics and just effortlessly throw,
link |
like there's a match against, I guess, Yul Romero.
link |
Yeah, so like, you know, if you look at like
link |
who is the guy who's like intimidating in this case
link |
and terrifying looking, it's Yul Romero,
link |
just like a physical specimen
link |
and obviously like a super accomplished wrestler.
link |
I think this is for the gold medal, yeah.
link |
And then there, this is the year you all took silver.
link |
And what you, like, just to show you like
link |
there's a inside trip, effortless.
link |
Uchi, and he does it again.
link |
Yep, you know, it's a really creative kind of wrestling
link |
where it's organic.
link |
Yeah, you throw in all of these kinds of things.
link |
This is a mix of judo, a mix of like weird kind of moves.
link |
It's not like as funky as Ben Askren.
link |
It's just like legitimate, basic.
link |
Well, it's not funky for funky sake.
link |
And I'm not poking at Ben Askren to imply
link |
that that's what he's doing, but it's like, it's funny.
link |
It's like, a lot of times it's almost like Musashi
link |
talked a lot about that.
link |
You know, that the only goal of combat is to win
link |
is the outcome is it's outcome driven
link |
versus like flourishing, you know, cool looking movements.
link |
It's like, unless that had a utilitarian purpose,
link |
like what are you wasting your time with that?
link |
Both in the fight and also, you know, in practice.
link |
But as you mentioned, it's almost like it looks like judo.
link |
It looks like wrestling, it looks like jujitsu.
link |
It's almost like, I guess the reminds me
link |
all of the martial arts is again, deeply tribal as well.
link |
I wanna learn Lex Fridman, martial arts.
link |
And then I wanna learn another, you know,
link |
I guess, transcendent person's martial arts.
link |
And it just happened to be the set of movements
link |
that you tended to do most of the time,
link |
thanks to your body type and your opposition and whatnot.
link |
But then I try to codify that and force those to work
link |
as opposed to going, I wanna understand how the body works
link |
in concert and in Congress with something else
link |
and other forces and move appropriately.
link |
And that's why it's like, it always struck me
link |
that the Saiki brothers are great examples
link |
of just moving like water, but they,
link |
to use Bruce Lee, which is a little trite,
link |
but again, he's brilliant.
link |
It's like water can flow or water can crash.
link |
And they would crash when they needed to crash
link |
and they would flow when they needed to flow,
link |
but they would flow for the purpose of dissipating
link |
and then crash when they would win.
link |
And at the right moment, then go back to flowing
link |
the second that the other person found them.
link |
And it's just, it's beautiful to watch, it's artistic.
link |
And I think that that great expression of anything physical
link |
is ultimately studied as a science,
link |
but expressed as an art.
link |
And I think that that's something that gets lost
link |
in jujitsu a lot of times when it gets a little bit,
link |
a little nerdy, like do this hand here, hand here.
link |
Like it's like the more details I have,
link |
the better when in reality, that's just not,
link |
not in my experience, how it's done.
link |
Might be fun exercise of saying like,
link |
what are the main positions and submissions
link |
in the art of jujitsu?
link |
You don't have to be complete, that's a ridiculously,
link |
I apologize for putting you on a spot like this,
link |
but it might be a nice exercise to think through it.
link |
Sure, I mean, I would just say that there,
link |
you have your arms bend in various ways.
link |
You have key lock Americana, straight arm locks,
link |
Kimura, omoplata, omoplata is a Kimura,
link |
Kimura is an omoplata, it's just executed.
link |
Breaking off your arm in all kinds of ways.
link |
But ultimately, the question is,
link |
let's say you were a Terminator,
link |
like a robot that I, which of course you are.
link |
It's like, all right, so we're being completely literal.
link |
But, and I couldn't harm you with any of these things.
link |
Would I still use these positions?
link |
The answer is yes.
link |
They create leverage, they create control,
link |
they create shapes that I can affect
link |
and that can affect me and they can be affected
link |
through other forces and other objects or structures
link |
like the ground or the wall.
link |
I really enjoy mixed martial arts
link |
because there's another component
link |
rather than just me and you and the floor,
link |
there's me, you, the floor, and the wall.
link |
And it's another player in the game
link |
that doesn't exist in a grappling context
link |
with a non enclosed, I guess, area of combat.
link |
But you can strangle me or choke me,
link |
what do you call it, without my arms being involved,
link |
or you can use one of my shoulders
link |
to pin one side of my, one carotid artery off
link |
and you can enclose the other.
link |
You can turn my knee in the exact same ways
link |
that you can turn my arm straight this way and that way.
link |
You can add a rotation to that
link |
or it can be directly linear against the joint.
link |
So I guess what I would say is the more
link |
that I've been able to understand jiu jitsu,
link |
the more that I've been, it's given me a look
link |
into how we learn language where rather
link |
than learning five bazillion adjectives,
link |
I go, I understand what an adjective is.
link |
And of course we are all read
link |
into some degree of vocabulary.
link |
I understand what an adverb does
link |
and I understand what an adverb is.
link |
I know what a noun is.
link |
I know what the component parts of a sentence are.
link |
I know what, you know, I guess a clause,
link |
a contraction, any of these things.
link |
And it allows you to be interesting and artistic
link |
with your language to the extent that you can.
link |
But I can't, like I can speak a degree of Spanish,
link |
but I'm not even slightly artistic in Spanish.
link |
I would be something, I speak like a child
link |
with a head injury.
link |
And anyway, the I.
link |
Your basic understanding of the English language
link |
allows you to then be a student of Spanish.
link |
100%, but I'm limited by my experience.
link |
I'm limited by my understanding of techniques.
link |
I'm limited by my understanding, almost like,
link |
let's say techniques are like these are like vocabulary.
link |
So even if I kind of sort of grasp the sentence structure
link |
and the thought process and the thought patterns
link |
of Spanish, which it's interesting
link |
because just even though the orientation
link |
and the organization of a language,
link |
and I've thought about this a great deal,
link |
you know, the way that I perceive the world
link |
is affected deeply by the language that I learned.
link |
The, you know, the, again, if I learned,
link |
I have no idea how the Chinese language structures,
link |
but I can only imagine that it would be,
link |
that it would affect, it's like a different lens.
link |
We're all looking at the same thing,
link |
but I have a different set of sunglasses on than you do.
link |
And that's very, very interesting.
link |
I'll use the Quran as an example.
link |
You know, apparently it's unbelievably poetic
link |
and in Arabic, still neat
link |
and was interesting reading in English,
link |
but I'm told by people that I trust
link |
that it just one doesn't bear a resemblance to the other.
link |
And I think that's a very interesting thing
link |
that you may be able to say the same thing,
link |
but in a more, I guess, in a different way,
link |
in a more artistic way that may not translate
link |
on a one for one kind of fidelity.
link |
But the more that we're able to understand
link |
about how the body works,
link |
the more examples of the body working this way,
link |
the body working that way, the body working that way,
link |
the more that I'm able to eventually become an artist,
link |
but it has to be studied as a science first.
link |
And it does start with technique collection,
link |
vocabulary collection, the same way we learn in school.
link |
You remember how to say quickly 17 different ways.
link |
And let's say I speak Spanish, I'm only, I only know three.
link |
So you might use quickly, you might use an adjective
link |
like quickly in Spanish, but use one of the many,
link |
many options to describe that, that I don't understand.
link |
And now I sit there and go like, wait, what?
link |
I can't be artistic.
link |
I can't be as organic with the language as I'd like.
link |
So I believe that jujitsu a lot of times starts
link |
with the acquisition of a lot of, hey, do this, this,
link |
this drill, this technique.
link |
Here's an Americana, Americana to an armlock,
link |
armlock to a triangle.
link |
But the problem with that is oftentimes
link |
we get stuck in that phase.
link |
And people eventually become move collectors
link |
or sequence collectors.
link |
And I noticed this when I'm trying to do DVDs
link |
or I guess like an instructional series now,
link |
or even teaching in class,
link |
I don't believe in that form of learning anymore.
link |
Not that it's not valuable, but I don't believe,
link |
I don't understand jujitsu on that level anymore.
link |
So what I'm trying to do is get across the basic ideas
link |
to people and say, hey, you need to fill in the gaps
link |
with going to class all the time.
link |
You need to go, hey, learn this move, learn that technique,
link |
learn that technique.
link |
Because otherwise I'm basically just throwing at you
link |
like 75 different words that you could use,
link |
but that hasn't really taught you how to speak a language.
link |
Whereas if you give me a language structure,
link |
you can fill in these pieces on your own
link |
and then eventually speak organically in Lex form,
link |
which will be ultimately unique to you
link |
because otherwise you just end up being like a weird facsimile
link |
of whatever it is that I'm doing
link |
for mostly the worst I'd say, but.
link |
Yeah, that's what people, I mean, people comment like,
link |
is this, especially people who haven't listened to me before,
link |
is this guy drunk or high?
link |
Does he, does MIT really allow slow people to be,
link |
like what's. Quotas.
link |
Like what's wrong with him?
link |
Is he getting sleep?
link |
Does he need help?
link |
So that's similar with my jiu jitsu.
link |
It's like, is this guy, is this guy really,
link |
whatever rank I was throughout,
link |
I remember just like, is this guy really this rank?
link |
I just have a very kind of certain way of sitting
link |
and being slow and lazy looking
link |
that there was ultimately the language
link |
that I had to discover.
link |
And it was, it was, yeah,
link |
it was a very liberating moment.
link |
I think of probably a few years of getting my ass kicked,
link |
especially with Open Guard and butterfly
link |
to where you really allow yourself
link |
to take in the entirety of the language
link |
and realize that, that I'm not, I'm different.
link |
I'm a unique, I'm unique.
link |
And like, I have a very, I have a language,
link |
I have a set of techniques,
link |
a way I move my body that needs,
link |
that I'm the one to discover.
link |
Like it's, you can only,
link |
you can learn specific techniques and so on,
link |
but you really have to understand your own body.
link |
And that's the beautiful thing about jiu jitsu,
link |
like you said, is like the connection about your philosophy,
link |
your view of the world with the physical
link |
and like connecting those two things,
link |
how you perceive the world,
link |
how you interpret ideas of the world about exhaustion,
link |
about force, about effortlessness,
link |
like what it really means to relax,
link |
all these kinds of loose concepts,
link |
and then actually teach your body to like do those things
link |
and like, you know, and be able to apply force and spurts,
link |
be able to relax and spurts
link |
and like figure all that stuff out for my,
link |
for my individual body.
link |
But it's, as you mentioned,
link |
I couldn't agree with you more, it's a discovery process
link |
and no one can cheat that process,
link |
which is at the same time,
link |
it's almost like imagine I wanna start writing books
link |
in second grade, unless maybe I'm like staggeringly brilliant,
link |
which I can only conceptualize someone being able to do that,
link |
but maybe a Mozart of the English language
link |
where you're out there doing it.
link |
But for most of us, we don't have enough knowledge,
link |
enough information, enough experience
link |
to be able to be, to express ourselves.
link |
So we have to basically input, repeat, which is important,
link |
but it's the process, as you say,
link |
of going through that, of getting your ass kicked,
link |
of just like, well, that didn't work,
link |
well, that didn't work, that felt right,
link |
but I don't know, nobody else does that,
link |
I guess I don't believe in that,
link |
versus eventually going, I don't know,
link |
I'll just try going my own way and see what happens
link |
and now I'll get yelled at and people won't like me
link |
and if it works, they'll say I got lucky
link |
and if it doesn't work, they'll say I was dumb,
link |
but which one, maybe all is right.
link |
But basically, you know,
link |
going through that iterative process
link |
that allows you to eventually find your self expression
link |
and find your voice so that you fight
link |
the same way that you speak, the same way that you write,
link |
the same way that you think in a way that is uniquely you,
link |
that will also ultimately allow you
link |
to understand other people being uniquely them
link |
because even if you can only conceptualize,
link |
and I think about this a lot for society stuff,
link |
where I go, well, this is how I feel about this,
link |
but am I objectively right?
link |
Maybe about a couple things, but that's a small box
link |
that I have to be very, very careful about
link |
what I think is objective versus what's not
link |
and I have to be open to the possibility
link |
of all the things that I think are objectively correct
link |
may or may not be.
link |
And that should allow me to have some degree
link |
of compassion or consideration for other people,
link |
both in their martial arts journey
link |
and in their journey as people, as human beings,
link |
because I understand that they're on a,
link |
it's a, we're all on a path where it's all,
link |
again, an iterative process of eventual self expression,
link |
but I think that's one of the things
link |
that we see having trouble when we see tribalism,
link |
which, I mean, racism, expression of that,
link |
political affiliation, expression of that,
link |
all of these things that can go
link |
in really uncomfortable directions.
link |
People are looking for,
link |
hey, where do I plant my feet over here?
link |
Where's the thing that I know is right?
link |
And we can all agree on the following.
link |
And I think that we see that in martial arts.
link |
We're like, oh, I do this style, I do that style,
link |
It's like, hey, man, we're all just pushing forward
link |
in a certain direction here, trying to do our best.
link |
And I understand why you feel the way you do.
link |
I may have felt like that at one point too,
link |
but I'm just trying to learn and understand
link |
versus I've already acquired enough knowledge,
link |
let me cross my arms and start to look
link |
who's fucking up around here.
link |
And I think that that's an, it's an interesting trap
link |
that I think is very human trap to fall into,
link |
but it definitely happens early on.
link |
It's, I mean, it's a joke in the jiu jitsu world, right?
link |
Like, oh, the blue belt that knows everything.
link |
Well, initially it's like, what, I know nothing
link |
and I at least think I know nothing.
link |
Then I'd learn a little bit and I think it's a lot bit.
link |
And then, you know, the more you learn,
link |
the more you go like, I don't even know what I'm doing.
link |
Yeah, that's exactly right.
link |
We kind of talked about it a little bit,
link |
but once again, a lot of people that listen to this
link |
have never been on the mat, have never tried jiu jitsu,
link |
but are really curious about it.
link |
Everybody at all positions, like I think, you know,
link |
most kids are not doing jiu jitsu.
link |
Andrew Yang is like, they're all, you know,
link |
the world is curious.
link |
It's a, it's a nice, it seems to be a nice methodology
link |
by which to humble your ego,
link |
which to grow intellectually and physically.
link |
So people are curious about it.
link |
So the natural question is if they're curious about it,
link |
how would you recommend they get started?
link |
Maybe like, what do you recommend the first day,
link |
week, month, year, first couple of years look like?
link |
Like, how do you ease into it
link |
and make sure that it's a positive experience
link |
and you progress in the most optimal and positive way?
link |
The first thing you can do is simply ask yourself why,
link |
why you want to be involved.
link |
You know, I remember the first day that I walked into
link |
Ronin Athletics in New York City
link |
to train under Godfather of my son now,
link |
Christian Montes, and I didn't know
link |
what I was getting myself into.
link |
I played baseball through high school
link |
and I wanted, I was at Manhattan College in the Bronx
link |
and I wanted to go and learn martial arts
link |
because it was always something that was interesting to me,
link |
but it was never something that I knew was accessible
link |
and it definitely wasn't really around
link |
in Northern Virginia where I grew up,
link |
whereas then you stick yourself in Manhattan
link |
and there's stuff everywhere.
link |
So anyway, I guess I didn't know what to expect.
link |
I didn't know if I was going to get beat up,
link |
if people were going to be nice,
link |
if people were not going to be nice,
link |
but what I began with was, I think, expectation management.
link |
And I think that that's something that I would,
link |
that'd be the first thing that I would start
link |
is almost imagining what is it that I'm getting myself into
link |
because I love the martial arts.
link |
The martial arts has given me everything in life
link |
and I'm so thankful I wouldn't be sitting here
link |
without that experience, that journey.
link |
The people that I've met, the places that I've gone,
link |
I could never, ever have ever imagined.
link |
And I'm just unbelievably thankful for that.
link |
But I think that the thing that helped me most of all
link |
was starting with going,
link |
my mom said something to me one time and she said,
link |
there's two types of people in various situations.
link |
There's why and there's why not.
link |
And it's understandable to have questions, concerns,
link |
But maybe sometimes it's a little bit easier
link |
when you're younger to just trust people
link |
or just say, I don't know, you know.
link |
But we go, hey, you wanna climb that rock?
link |
I'm like, yeah, why not?
link |
Hey, you wanna jump in that river?
link |
Versus if I have to reason my way into everything,
link |
if I have to be talked into everything,
link |
a lot of times I'll talk myself out of it.
link |
And I think that a lot of times
link |
this is the thinker's disease.
link |
You wanna figure out what's gonna happen
link |
and what you should expect to have happen
link |
before you get involved versus going,
link |
using the old Bruce Lee saying again,
link |
it's like no amount of thinking or training
link |
on the side of the river will teach you how to swim.
link |
You have to jump in.
link |
And there are risks associated with that.
link |
And I guess psychological are usually the biggest ones.
link |
That's the biggest hurdle.
link |
But the biggest thing that I guess I would suggest
link |
to anyone to say, well, why do you wanna do this?
link |
You're like, well, I wanna challenge myself.
link |
I wanna learn, I would like to learn to fight.
link |
I wanted to learn to fight so that I could protect myself.
link |
And if anything else, other people,
link |
if only within arms reach.
link |
I perceived that if I had some small degree of power,
link |
I generally wouldn't use it.
link |
Which is why I was like, yeah, I'll give it a try.
link |
I'll try to be reasonable.
link |
And hopefully if I make a mistake,
link |
I'll apologize to people.
link |
But basically I said, yeah, I'd like to have that.
link |
And I wanna, I know this is gonna be challenging
link |
and we'll see what happens.
link |
And that means that getting beat up
link |
and I didn't get like hurt, but getting roughed up,
link |
getting my arm bent this way or that way, getting choked.
link |
I was like, well, this is all supposed to happen.
link |
That's no big deal.
link |
It would be like going and joining the army
link |
during peacetime and then going,
link |
oh, I'm just doing this for college education.
link |
You know, like, okay, that's cool, man.
link |
And then all of a sudden war breaks out
link |
and they wanna send me somewhere.
link |
And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
link |
I didn't sign up for that.
link |
Actually you did, whether you realize it or not.
link |
You may not have thought that you did, but you did.
link |
So getting your mind right and just going,
link |
what are my expectations for this activity?
link |
What is it that I'm looking to do?
link |
And of course, you know, you're going into a gym,
link |
you're going into a place that you don't know people,
link |
you probably don't know people
link |
and you don't know the coach.
link |
And even if you do wanna, hey, how you doing?
link |
Shake your hand, type of level.
link |
You know, 95% of my students don't know me.
link |
Not really, you know, I'll try to be polite
link |
and not annoy them too much,
link |
but they don't know me and I don't know them.
link |
I understand if they don't trust me,
link |
I wouldn't trust, trust me either if I were them.
link |
But at the same time, someone has to take that leap.
link |
And one of the things that I've noticed
link |
as a martial arts instructor,
link |
that's the biggest struggle with dealing with adults,
link |
which is why a lot of people like to teach kids
link |
is because kids don't ask, don't argue.
link |
Now that also means there's all sorts of pitfalls
link |
or that sort of thing, and that can be an issue.
link |
But you know, I guess a lot of times people get to a point
link |
in their life, you know, in their 20s, early 30s,
link |
where now I'm a manager now, I know what I'm doing.
link |
No one talks to me like that.
link |
First it's like, hey man, you go join bootcamp,
link |
I don't care if you are Elon Musk,
link |
they're gonna tell you to shut up and do pushups.
link |
And that's what's great about it.
link |
So you are taking a leap of faith into a world
link |
that you're gonna be a tiny fish.
link |
And you gotta hope that the people who are guiding you
link |
in that journey are gonna have,
link |
I can't even say your best interests at heart
link |
because they don't even know you,
link |
but they'll try to do no harm.
link |
And they'll try to help you
link |
in the way that they would understand.
link |
And I guess that's, for instance,
link |
that's what I would try to do with anyone
link |
that comes into my gym.
link |
I would try to help them in the way
link |
that I understand they need as best I can
link |
and as safe and reasonable a way as possible,
link |
but sometimes in a way that's gonna make them uncomfortable,
link |
particularly if physical combat,
link |
and it's not something they've done before.
link |
If a lot of people go in without even having played,
link |
you know, contact sports, and so that can be a big jump.
link |
And you have to understand,
link |
if that's where you're starting from, no worries,
link |
but you're gonna have to kind of work your way to it,
link |
and it's gonna be uncomfortable, and that's okay.
link |
It's part of the process,
link |
and you're gonna have some bumps and bruises,
link |
and you're not gonna wanna roll with that guy in the corner
link |
because that person's rough, and they beat you up,
link |
and they're like, okay, but is this a big hurt
link |
or is it a little hurt?
link |
If it's a big hurt, okay.
link |
If it's a little hurt,
link |
need you to center up a little bit.
link |
It's such an interesting balance because to find,
link |
I think one of the most important things
link |
as in anything, I think, in life
link |
is the selection of the people that you put around you.
link |
I mean, that's true with like getting married.
link |
That's true with like if you go to,
link |
if people ask me, like graduate students,
link |
like your PhD advisor can be the difference.
link |
It's like you spend five years with somebody,
link |
they're going to basically define more impact on you
link |
than anybody you marry, anybody you hang out with.
link |
It's a huge impact.
link |
And the same with the coach selection,
link |
which is like the school selection,
link |
is it's going to be really important about
link |
in terms of like who you select will define how happy,
link |
like the trajectory of your growth
link |
and how happy you are with the entirety of the experience.
link |
And yet, like the flip side of that is,
link |
especially if you have an ego,
link |
especially if you are the manager
link |
that needs to let go of some stuff,
link |
you're going to feel like shit
link |
with the best kind of coach.
link |
That's what you need.
link |
But there's a weird balance there to find.
link |
Like, I mean, like, and everybody needs a different thing.
link |
Like I'm much more, I enjoy being sort of like,
link |
it sounds weird, but like I'm, you know,
link |
from the wrestling background,
link |
I enjoy feeling like crap in the sense like the coach,
link |
like getting beat up.
link |
I don't actually enjoy it.
link |
It's not like some masochistic thing or whatever.
link |
It's like, it's the growth.
link |
Like I like the anxiety.
link |
I like feeling like shit when I go home,
link |
like emotionally, physically, it's like, it's growth.
link |
It's a sign of growth, right?
link |
Like if you're not having to feel those things,
link |
you're probably in your comfort zone, which is fine,
link |
but that's not your growth zone, right?
link |
And everybody has a different threshold for that.
link |
And I mean, the beautiful thing about jiu jitsu is like,
link |
it's also has like a yoga feel to it.
link |
Like you're learning about your body.
link |
So depending on the gym and depending on, in fact,
link |
the coaches or the people around you within the gym,
link |
you can select little groups too, kind of like the people
link |
with who you roll, like if you're a smaller person,
link |
it doesn't mean you have to go against big people.
link |
You can go against the people who like smoke a lot of weed
link |
and they're chill, or you can go against like that crazy
link |
red blue belt competitor who's like out to destroy everybody.
link |
And depending on like what your mindset is,
link |
you can kind of select that.
link |
It's such a fascinating journey of like,
link |
basically self discovery.
link |
I couldn't agree with you more.
link |
It's, I mean, what you need may change over time, right?
link |
Maybe what you needed, what you need today
link |
could change six months from now or a year from now.
link |
And that's something that I experienced.
link |
I'll use my first coach Christian, again,
link |
as a great example of someone who I really look up to
link |
and respect and someone who helped me a lot.
link |
Like at a time when I really needed some guidance
link |
and I needed to learn martial arts, but get into,
link |
Hensel Gracie's gym was right down the street
link |
from where Christian was teaching.
link |
And Christian was a blue belt at the time.
link |
It was, he was teaching at a place called Fight House,
link |
which was this awesome, like, you know, like 90s,
link |
early 2000s, you know, warehouse area down
link |
on Fashion Avenue in Manhattan,
link |
off of like between 7th and 8th.
link |
And it was like two basketball courts wide,
link |
but like there was the Sambo guys over here.
link |
There was the Kali guys over there.
link |
There was a Wing Chun over there.
link |
There was Jiu Jitsu in the corner.
link |
And Hensel's was one of the most famous academies
link |
in the world at that time, still is.
link |
And I just didn't know what Hensel Gracie was.
link |
And I mean, it's a great gym
link |
and it's a fantastic place for people to train.
link |
But I think what was right for me at the time was to,
link |
I stumbled into, you know, like a two person elevator up
link |
and found a place where six people trained at that time.
link |
And I had someone that could give me some,
link |
like in addition to martial arts advice,
link |
like personal guidance.
link |
And that made a big difference.
link |
And then when initially we would have like competitions
link |
or like intra, you know, gym competitions
link |
with the Sambo guys, we would compete,
link |
we would roll with them.
link |
And like, again, it was great
link |
because they were just a bunch of like Russian dudes
link |
from like Brighton Beach.
link |
And they would come down and then we would all fight.
link |
And then everyone would train
link |
and we'd all drink tea and then go home.
link |
And anyway, what was, it was super tough.
link |
And they were like, again, just a tough group of people.
link |
And then I remember when I decided
link |
after like four or five months,
link |
I'm like, man, I really want to try to take this seriously.
link |
And I told Christian about that.
link |
And he's like, well, hey,
link |
I think you need to do the following.
link |
And it was, you know, like, hey, here's,
link |
there was a guy named Jeff Ruth,
link |
who was a purple belt at the time,
link |
which was a much bigger deal than it is now,
link |
but it was 10 and always an MMA fighter,
link |
a lot of amateur box spirit, super tough dude.
link |
And Jeff was the best person at that time
link |
that I'd ever trained with.
link |
And I just got squashed.
link |
Christian used to beat me up too,
link |
but like Jeff would just absolutely kick the crap out of me.
link |
And I was like, this is awesome.
link |
And this was back when I was at home.
link |
I went home for the summer for that.
link |
And Chris is like, hey, I think you should stay because I told him that's what I was thinking.
link |
And this was a coach that, you know, when it's like when initially was exactly what I needed.
link |
And then he's like, well, hey, that's not what I'm doing here.
link |
Maybe they're going to be able to help you onto a path that's,
link |
that's kind of commensurate with what your goals are at the moment.
link |
And then, you know, that was an, that was an interesting thing.
link |
And I really got, I feel that I was fortunate to start at a place where my coach was able to transition roles
link |
and, and, and do so comfortably.
link |
And I think that that also was probably a factor of the fact that, you know,
link |
where he'd done some of his training prior, like there've been issues with, with the coach there.
link |
We're like not supporting, not having the support, you know, feeling like, hey,
link |
like I'm going to hold onto my students.
link |
I'm gonna hold onto my best guy or my best girl, even if I can't take them where they need to go.
link |
So that was an interesting thing.
link |
And just recognizing also though, that the people like the same way you're an individual going into a gym
link |
and you don't know what you're getting into your coach is a person too.
link |
And he or she, you know, they may have been doing this activity longer than you, but they're not,
link |
they're not some weird little, you know, all knowing God.
link |
They don't know anything.
link |
They may say something that pisses you off.
link |
They may, they may yell at you.
link |
They may help you.
link |
They may inadvertently cause you some sort of, you know, some sort of issue.
link |
And just being able to recognize that even though I say this to people and I've said this to people in my gym,
link |
I'm like, you know, we're in the service industry, man, but I'm not at your service.
link |
Like don't get it twisted.
link |
Like I will absolutely do my best to help people.
link |
I'm there to do my best as a martial arts coach, but I'm here to do my best as a martial arts coach.
link |
And I'll do my best and periodically I make mistakes and I own apology or two,
link |
and I'll try to give them out when I can.
link |
But we're not McDonald's.
link |
It's not, oh, you gave me a hundred bucks, so you do whatever you want in here.
link |
This is, this is a martial arts.
link |
This is not a basketball team.
link |
There's something beautiful about martial arts.
link |
Like exactly as you said is the coach, like in wrestling and at least collegiate,
link |
like high level wrestling is like, there's a dictatorship aspect to a coach that is very important to have.
link |
Like this, this ridiculous sometimes nature of like master and so on and bowing, all these traditions.
link |
There's something, it seems ridiculous from the outside perhaps,
link |
but there's something really powerful to that because that process of you said, why not,
link |
of letting go of the leap of faith requires you to believe that the coach has your best interest in mind
link |
and just give yourself over to their ideas of how, how you should grow.
link |
And that's an interesting thing.
link |
I mean, I've never been able to really see coaches I've had as human.
link |
They're always, you always, it's like a father figure or like this,
link |
you always put them in this position of power.
link |
And I think that's, I think at least for me, it's been a very,
link |
it's been a very useful way to see the coach because it allows you to not think and let go
link |
and really allow yourself to grow and emotionally deal with all the beatings.
link |
Well, they'll push you where past oftentimes where you would have stopped yourself, right?
link |
And then hopefully they know they, if they're paying attention and they're,
link |
they're still a person, they can make mistakes,
link |
but they'll push you further than you would have gone, but not so far that it's not facilitative.
link |
That's something that I can say, like Faraz Zahabi, the head coach at TriStar,
link |
my head coach for MMA, Kenny Florian, one of the head coaches for MMA,
link |
they've both been phenomenal influences.
link |
Paul Shriner, who's the one of the assistants at Marcelo Garcia's Academy,
link |
coached me in Jiu Jitsu for a long time, brilliant instructor.
link |
They've all been able to do that.
link |
And I think what's interesting about all of those guys is they're very sharp,
link |
but they're very intuitive as well.
link |
And I think that Faraz actually, you know, told me about some of the John Wooden said,
link |
John Wooden, the legendary UCLA basketball coach, just a simple philosophical idea.
link |
Just, he said, some people's life is a bowl of shit.
link |
It needs some whipped cream in it.
link |
Some people's life is a bowl of whipped cream.
link |
Needs a little bit of shit in it just to balance it out.
link |
And it's an interesting thing.
link |
Coaching everyone the same way doesn't work.
link |
You know, that's, I think the difference between a coach and an instructor.
link |
And a lot of times people think they want to coach, but they really want an instructor.
link |
I'm like, hey Lex, tell me what to do, not how to do it.
link |
And then other times people think they want, you know, an instructor and they really want a coach.
link |
I'm like, man, this guy's just giving me information.
link |
A coach is so much more than an instructor.
link |
And that's a huge leap.
link |
And that's something that I think that people need to understand when they're going into
link |
And I understand, and I can totally grasp why they don't, because how would they know?
link |
But I think about this a lot, like me giving you $150 for a month, which is not nothing,
link |
That does not, that pays for instructor really.
link |
Coach is a relationship that gets developed because can you imagine like just the amount
link |
of emotional investment and time thinking away from like, oh, Lex isn't here anymore.
link |
What can I do to help him?
link |
What does he need?
link |
Like that's serious.
link |
And that's the difference between, that's oftentimes the difference that getting over
link |
the hump in various situations.
link |
So it's an interesting, you know, bargain that's being made like commitment by the instructor
link |
who becomes a coach, commitment by the student.
link |
You know, like there's a financial transaction.
link |
There's a lot of things going on there, but I feel very fortunate to have had not just
link |
instructors in my time, but coaches.
link |
And that means sometimes we butted heads and sometimes I look back and I think I was right.
link |
And other times I look back on my own, no, they were definitely right.
link |
But there was always the trust with the exception of one time that I feel that trust was greatly
link |
betrayed that rightly or wrongly, whether mistakes, mistakes will be made, but everyone
link |
is attempting to do the right thing under no circumstances.
link |
Is what I intentionally do anything malicious, you know, versus, Hey, I might've done.
link |
I might've burnt your house down, but you can be darn sure it wasn't on purpose.
link |
And I think that as long as there's that mutual understanding and mutual belief of goodwill,
link |
which again, doesn't just magic up out of nowhere.
link |
I think that that's when then great things can happen.
link |
And I look at all the athletes that I know, you know, the guys and girls that I've watched
link |
become fantastic in various places, almost invariably.
link |
It never happened alone.
link |
I'm really torn about that.
link |
Like, maybe you can help.
link |
Have you seen the movie Whiplash?
link |
So it's, I would say from an outsider's perspective, people should watch it.
link |
It's, I guess, jazz band.
link |
It's a movie about a drummer and the instructor.
link |
And he, it's a basically, I would say from the outsider's perspective, it's a toxic
link |
relationship, but he's really the coach, whatever we call him, pushes the musician, the drummer
link |
or to his limits, like to where he just feels like shit emotionally.
link |
It's a, it looks like a toxic relationship, but it's one that ultimately is very productive
link |
for the improvement of the musician.
link |
I have the same, like in my own experience, I had, I got a chance to train at a couple
link |
of places regularly.
link |
And so one of my coaches who is a great human being, a lot of people love him.
link |
But when I was a blue belt, he was pushing me a lot for competition.
link |
And every time I step on the mat, I was anxious and almost afraid of training because of like
link |
the places I'm going to have to go.
link |
And then the, I can't, I don't know what's good or bad because I think I've become a
link |
better person because of that experience.
link |
Like I needed that.
link |
And on the flip side, like the place I got my black belt from, it's Balanced Studios.
link |
I remember also blue belt, the coach sitting down and I was going to competition and he
link |
saw something in me where he said, you know, like, good luck, but win or lose, we always
link |
Like, I, I really, I remember that because I really needed that at that time.
link |
Like I was putting so much pressure on myself.
link |
Like I'm not an actual professional competitor, you know, I just competed.
link |
Like I'm a PhD student, like, but like it was clearly having a psychological effect
link |
on me and that's what a great coach does is like, you know, it's like life is more
link |
important than Jiu Jitsu since it's bigger.
link |
So they find, you use Jiu Jitsu when you need it to grow as a person and when it
link |
overwhelms you, you have to pull that person out, like look at the bigger picture, always
link |
look at the bigger picture and it's fascinating and I don't know what to make of it.
link |
I don't think I would have it any other way is both the anxiety and the, and the love
link |
I think that I couldn't, that's a really interesting thing that you're describing
link |
that I guess it kind of brings me back to a lot of the other things we've been
link |
discussing is just almost like the, the reciprocal nature of everything where no
link |
pressure, that's great.
link |
Everyone's happy all the time.
link |
It's either, I mean, let's, uh, use the example of sci fi movies to see the matrix,
link |
which of course the first one was amazing and then each subsequent movie made the
link |
But, um, but basically, yeah, I've heard, we'll see, I was hoping for the best, but,
link |
um, but basically, uh, you know, let's say, Hey, which we started with our first
link |
initial world agent Smith says to Neo is like our first world was a utopia where
link |
everyone was happy and nothing ever went wrong.
link |
It's like your primitive cerebrum rejected it.
link |
And I think that there's obviously, I mean, what do I think, but I guess, well,
link |
I'm here, so I might as well say what I think.
link |
Um, I guess, uh, you know, great things are fantastic.
link |
A kind, gentle place is fantastic.
link |
And this is again, why I love dune is I think dune does such a great job of, of
link |
expressing Frank Herbert does such a great job of expressing again, the
link |
reciprocal nature of these ideas.
link |
You know, look at, uh, look at Sparta for instance, or at least what I understand
link |
of Sparta from the reading and also watching 300.
link |
Um, uh, you know, and reading the Wikipedia and reading the Wikipedia
link |
article about the movie, not the place.
link |
Um, but, uh, it's, um, that's a hard, brutal place.
link |
And that was their benefit to that.
link |
Was there drawback to that?
link |
Is it sustainable?
link |
I should probably think probably not.
link |
Um, I mean, granted it hasn't sustained, but I mean, that type of a, of a thing,
link |
it, it burns too hot almost.
link |
And it, uh, it, it destroys the host at a certain point.
link |
And, you know, I guess that, that type of unforgiving nature, but in
link |
entirely, entirely permissive has its own issues.
link |
And I guess coming back into your, what your description of like describing a
link |
toxic relationship is a very dangerous and tricky thing because it's almost
link |
like, uh, it's like bird's eye view.
link |
Me, you know, you see, let's say a husband and a wife arguing, you know,
link |
like, all right, well, sort of somebody hitting somebody.
link |
I need to keep myself out of this because I have no idea what I'm seeing
link |
something, but I don't know what's going on or why specifically.
link |
And again, short of it going to a place that, that just out of bounds,
link |
I don't know who's right here.
link |
I don't know who's wrong.
link |
And I don't know what phase of this things are in.
link |
So I guess long term was good for both people.
link |
It's dangerous for it.
link |
So if I want to put my finger on the scale, I can understand the desire to do
link |
them like, Hey guys, let's break it up.
link |
But, and that may be the right thing at the time, but at the same time, I'm not
link |
So I think back to all of the times that.
link |
You know, that like you mentioned, your coach pushing you when very, very hard.
link |
And then other times going like, Hey, let's put it in perspective here.
link |
I think that's an interesting thing for high performance.
link |
And I think that we're seeing that again, societally, you know, now, or at least
link |
maybe that's just pops up on my internet feed periodically but coaches shouldn't
link |
be allowed to do this or yell at this person to yell at that person.
link |
Like, well, have you ever been go to a boxing gym?
link |
It's not a commercial entity.
link |
Not really a real box, not LA boxing, not a USC gym, like a real place.
link |
You're going to see what things are like when it's entirely performance based.
link |
Go to wrestling room at a high level.
link |
You know, again, there's, there's left and right limits and there are such
link |
things obviously as abuse, of course, but, and that should never be tolerated.
link |
Um, but it's not a commercial entity.
link |
I don't need to be sweet to you if you're, if you're screwing up, if you're
link |
dropping the ball and in fact, recognizing that I'm not doing you a favor or the
link |
favor or the team a favor by, by being permissive of that type of behavior.
link |
I think is important.
link |
Everything in its context and at its time is important.
link |
And I guess I can think again at the times that I've been put, put, or had
link |
put on me, like a great deal of pressure to do X, Y, or Z or to succeed, um, or
link |
to push for success.
link |
And I can't look back fondly enough on those times.
link |
They were tough at the time, but without that, I'm not sitting here without that.
link |
I don't go from growing up in a, in a very nice family in the suburbs to fighting at
link |
the highest level in jujitsu, gi, no gi, and now in mixed martial arts, starting a
link |
You know, I don't, it just doesn't happen because people generally speaking from
link |
that background, don't get pushed hard enough physically to be able to make that
link |
And that has benefits and it has drawbacks.
link |
You know, when you stare into the abyss, it stares back.
link |
And I think that that's an important thing to understand.
link |
You know, you stare long enough, you, you can become something that you don't, that
link |
you would be sorry that you did.
link |
You don't look enough and you don't have perspective either.
link |
You know, and I, I think that that's an interesting thing.
link |
I can speak to someone who's relative to being someone who's relatively articulate
link |
I try to be reasonable, but you know, I'll say in sparring, if people get crazy with
link |
me, they get a warning and then I'm a crack them.
link |
And what did they expect?
link |
Oh, they hear the guy on a, on an interview, but who did they think they were meeting?
link |
Cause there's also the guy in the ring and there's layers there too.
link |
I remember training with you.
link |
It was kind of funny.
link |
There's like, there's, well, you didn't know who I was.
link |
I mean, you still like, I have a really good straight ankle up by the way.
link |
So I don't remember what rank I was, but it might've been purple or something like
link |
And I did some, like I, you had this look on your face, which I've often seen in
link |
It's like, here he goes again, like here, here's him trying this thing.
link |
And then when I kind of annoyed you a little bit with it, now I get that it was a good
link |
at like, I, you know, I did something somewhat effective, like some, like maybe a little
link |
There's a, I just peeled off a little layer of Ryan Hall to where I was like, okay, let
link |
me, let me like, there, there's like layers underneath Mike Tyson somewhere in there.
link |
Like, so it was like, okay, this like new guy rolls in here.
link |
He thinks he can do the stupid thing.
link |
And then, and then you started to beat the hell out of me.
link |
But the, the, the point is there's layers here from the guy who was being interviewed
link |
now to like Genghis Khan, but it's, but it's all in the same body.
link |
But it's like, all of us are like that, right.
link |
In various different directions and recognizing that's okay.
link |
It's just, there are consequences to all every choice that we make as a consequence.
link |
Sometimes there's like objectively wrong or objectively right.
link |
But at least in my mind, that's a pretty small box.
link |
Everything else is just, there's a consequence to that.
link |
Do you like that consequence?
link |
And who do I want to become?
link |
What do I want to try to hone myself or anyone else into?
link |
And also like, but this is something I've screwed up as a coach plenty of times.
link |
You know, like if someone says, if you're, if like, I come to them like Lex, I really,
link |
really want to take, you know, research very seriously.
link |
Like, okay, I believe you.
link |
Now I haven't shown you that, but I believe you like, okay.
link |
And now me not showing up to research or to study or not being up until three in the morning
link |
thinking about this is no longer acceptable.
link |
There was a time like five seconds before me making that statement that if I went to
link |
bed without reading the book that I needed to read, no worries.
link |
But the second that I made that statement, your expectations for me changed.
link |
And maybe that's something that I've screwed up a whole bunch of times in my, as a teacher.
link |
Cause it's an interesting thing, obviously, you know, being a, like running a martial
link |
arts school is as you're principally an athlete is sometimes I don't pay enough attention
link |
to what people are doing.
link |
I just go, oh, okay.
link |
I'm like, Roger that.
link |
I will now put you in category X and whether rightly or wrongly, like maybe this person
link |
didn't understand what they were asking for, or I didn't express this or the other.
link |
And it just, it caused cross wires.
link |
And then most times you just, you hash it out.
link |
You have a discussion, you figure out, get to the bottom of what people are trying to
link |
do or what they want.
link |
But if I was paying more attention, I think I could have been a lot more effective.
link |
Or if I had more experience and sometimes maybe I'm not sharp enough or I don't, I'm
link |
not perceptive enough to be able to, to see what's going on.
link |
And maybe with years more down the line, I'll be able to have a sharper perception.
link |
But I think that's another one of those interesting things that some, that sometimes I would caution
link |
or not caution, but just inform a prospective martial arts student, depending upon where
link |
you're going you know, this you, both you and also your coach or other people in the
link |
room, they wear many hats.
link |
And sometimes there's a, I had the wrong hat on.
link |
You were talking to me as Lex the guy.
link |
I didn't realize you were talking to me.
link |
I thought you were talking to me as Lex the guy.
link |
I didn't realize you're talking to me as Lex the martial artist.
link |
I'm like, Oh crap.
link |
I was talking to the wrong person.
link |
So it's almost like if you had a, like I run my gym with my wife, she's a black belt.
link |
She's my peers as a martial artist, uh, in Jiu Jitsu.
link |
He's here by the way, in judging.
link |
So, but, but a fellow black belt.
link |
And I guess like another thing, she doesn't have a microphone, so you can't hear all the
link |
trash she's talking.
link |
But it can be tough.
link |
And that's something that we've had to work through a lot.
link |
And it's like looking back and it's like now being where I'm at now.
link |
And it's easy for me to say that cause she's in the room and I don't want her to stab me,
link |
just continue to slowly poison me over time, which frankly I understand.
link |
Um, you know, it's, it's the sort of thing that is now way more effective than anything
link |
else I could really reasonably expect to have.
link |
Um, but there were times when, when both of us, you know, were justifiably annoyed at
link |
the other because of crossed wires.
link |
And sometimes, you know, you'll just have to scream in any way or misunderstanding anyway.
link |
But again, like I've, I coached some of my friends, I've coached, I've coached my friend
link |
who I've known since I was four years old.
link |
You know, sometimes I don't go, Hey buddy, how are you doing?
link |
Sometimes it's like, what the fuck are you doing?
link |
Put your hand over there.
link |
How many times we talked about this?
link |
And then you walk away and you can see him look at you crooked and you're like, Oh crap.
link |
He thought I was talking to his friend.
link |
Well, all right, let, we need to talk this one out, hashing out and not he's wrong.
link |
How could he possibly think that way?
link |
Like, Oh no, I totally understand that.
link |
But if I was 22, like doesn't need no, I'm a purple belt, some nonsense like that.
link |
And it's, and it doesn't come from a bad place, but it's just, I guess that comes back to
link |
society to anything.
link |
People only had the perspective that they have and the awareness that we have.
link |
And so again, going back and going, Hey guys, grace, like I don't expect, it's not fair
link |
for me to go, I fight UFC.
link |
Why doesn't this guy who came in as an attorney understand how hardcore this needs to be?
link |
I'm like, how could he?
link |
And at the same time though, if, if I'm using the language of someone that is interested
link |
in at least performance from a martial arts perspective, I understand how that could be
link |
Let's say for instance, someone that's like all of that would be out of bounds in their
link |
But if they think of the gym as my office, then whether they agree or disagree with what's
link |
going on, they go, okay, I hear why I see why that might happen.
link |
Let's talk about this.
link |
And we can, again, all push forward in a positive direction that benefits, I guess, everyone's
link |
journey throughout the activity.
link |
And on top of all that, there's moods.
link |
Like I, I mean, especially lately, I think two days ago, maybe yesterday, no, two days
link |
ago, I've never been that cranky in my life.
link |
I think, I don't know what it was, but I wanted to tell everybody how much they annoyed me.
link |
It was like, I was just very conscious of this feeling of like, why, why is this happening
link |
So I consciously decided as I usually do in those cases to not say anything to anybody.
link |
How do you do that?
link |
Well, I, you know, it's, it's yeah.
link |
Meditate because it's not, I tend to, I tend to then visualize what's going to happen in
link |
the next, like, how is this going to make my life better?
link |
Like if I say something that mean to somebody else, I have just started a conflict that
link |
will just escalate, will continue, will add more conflict to my life.
link |
It will make things, I just don't like the feeling you will create.
link |
And so you live in enough life to know that like, it's just like with like street fighting.
link |
I would get into a lot of fights when I was younger, just on the street, but then you
link |
realize like, it's not like a jujitsu match or something like that.
link |
It's not, it'll escalate.
link |
It'll, it might come back at you.
link |
It'll like that person might find you again.
link |
But more importantly, the anxiety of it, of having created little enemies in this
link |
world, distorts the way you see the world.
link |
So I've noticed that like, if I am shitty to people on the internet, which I haven't
link |
been, I think in a long time is like, it, it somehow brings the shittiness to you
link |
more and more, it escalates like the more love you put out there, the more like the
link |
people who put love out, like surround you.
link |
Well, you mentioned forgiveness as well.
link |
Like you said, like, I guess back to the original, you know, the Holocaust survivor
link |
scenario where you're like, oh my God, like you think of the ultimate in, in like, I've
link |
never experienced one, one billionth of that level of, of pain and horror.
link |
And it's like, and I can't let this little thing go.
link |
You know, I guess that's an interesting thing.
link |
I think you're just making the point in your personal life, I guess the same way.
link |
And on the internet, it's hard.
link |
I've somehow gotten, I mean, you've, you've had a level of celebrity for a while.
link |
I've recently gotten some level of like celebrity and like these people who are
link |
just shitty for no reason come out from all, from all places, like calling me a
link |
fraud or anything else.
link |
It was Jay and Silent Bob, Strike Back.
link |
They find out a movie is going to be made about them and people were talking shit
link |
on the internet and they're like, what's the internet?
link |
And then someone shows them and they're like, what?
link |
And they go to a message board and they go to Hollywood to try to stop it from
link |
And they eventually get money for their likeness and they use the money to buy
link |
plane tickets and fly around and beat the shit out of all the people that talk bad
link |
I mean, it's I'm, I'm having trouble with it cause there's people like, yeah,
link |
there's, you know, there's posts and forums and like heated discussions about
link |
is like sweeping a fraud.
link |
What has he really done?
link |
And there's like, and then there's people like, well, I think he's an all right
link |
guy, but I'm not sure.
link |
Like, like there's like literal discussions and I'm like, like nobody,
link |
like if you increase the level of celebrity, there's going to be like one
link |
of the things that hurts my heart a little bit is like some level of toxicity
link |
For example, there's like communities of people that now like talk about him
link |
selling out, for example, all that kind of stuff.
link |
And I don't, you know, and Joe I've talked to him about it is amazing that
link |
he he says, don't read the comments.
link |
He legitimately doesn't read the comments.
link |
His heart and his soul doesn't give a damn about the comments.
link |
All he gives a damn about is his friends.
link |
Like one of the things that's really inspiring to me and that's I've had a
link |
conversation with them offline about Spotify and the removed episodes.
link |
People are curious.
link |
Um, it's, uh, it's a thing on the internet where, uh, I think you can play
link |
Taylor Swift songs on, um, but you can also now play Joe Rogan podcasts and
link |
they gave him a hundred million dollars.
link |
So that that's, um, you know, that's it's yeah.
link |
Uh, but the thing I've had a discussion with him and I made a video about it
link |
that I took down because of the toxicity is like, it's hard to put into words,
link |
but he will give away the a hundred million in a second.
link |
If he ever has to compromise who he is, like he doesn't, I mean, he already
link |
said, as he talked about, he's made quote unquote, fuck you money a long
link |
time ago, he doesn't need any more money.
link |
It's nice to have money, whatever, but like, he'll give it away.
link |
So the it's nice to see when people like him at a level of celebrity level of
link |
success and financial success, don't change at all.
link |
They're just the same thing that makes you happy is talking in his case, talking
link |
shit with his friends in the case of most of us really just, just hanging out
link |
with friends, doing the things you love in his case, doing the things he loves
link |
without any, like, you know, the Texas way, the freedom, like without any
link |
corporate bureaucracy bullshit that rolls in and says, well, maybe you
link |
shouldn't say fuck, you know, like more than 20 times a podcast or something
link |
like that, like those kinds of like rules, like people, like he says in a
link |
suit and tie, they show up and say stuff oddly enough people that could never
link |
have done what he does.
link |
And it's kind of inspiring to see that.
link |
And I hope people, I hope people realize how special of a human he is.
link |
He's inspired like people like me, like I'm just, I'm a scientist, right?
link |
So he inspired somebody like me from a very different walk of life to be like
link |
kind to others, to be open minded.
link |
I don't know that it's a special dude.
link |
So like people need to support that and treasure that as opposed to
link |
as opposed to be toxic about it.
link |
I mean, what people really for a long time have told me that it would be
link |
awesome if Ryan Hall goes on Joe Rogan.
link |
I definitely think that would be an awesome thing.
link |
Have you listened to Joe?
link |
Has he been a part of your life in some kind of way?
link |
You know, well, Joe's always, I remember watching Joe on Fear Factor when I
link |
was a little kid, which is cool.
link |
So I've actually gotten to like, from a bird's eye view, watch his kind of
link |
just path through life.
link |
But one of the things that I always appreciate, and again, I barely know Joe
link |
other than to shake his hand.
link |
He interviewed me after the, briefly in the ring after the BJ pan fight.
link |
But one of the things that I've always admired about Joe is that I think he
link |
had fucking money from the start.
link |
I think that zero dollars is fucking money for Joe.
link |
I think, and that's something I respect about him a great deal because as you
link |
say, it's interesting to watch, it's like you hope that George St. Pierre is
link |
It's really, I'm not super close to George, but we're teammates at TriStar
link |
and he's never been anything but a gentleman.
link |
He's one of those people that if you didn't know George was famous when you
link |
walk into the gym, you'd have no idea.
link |
He's not holding court, not doing it.
link |
He's just, you know, training and he'll help out an amateur doing this.
link |
If you have a question for him, he'll help me.
link |
Like I'm nobody, man.
link |
He would give me advice and train me.
link |
It was super cool.
link |
And he didn't kill me, which I really appreciated.
link |
But you know, it's like you meet someone and you go, man, it's so cool that
link |
this is the guy who's the best, that this is the guy who has been successful.
link |
And then you go, why are they successful?
link |
Like I said, true to what they're doing.
link |
They haven't changed.
link |
They're the same as they've been.
link |
And I remember I got to TriStar in 2012 and George was already George St.
link |
Pierre, but I remember watching and talking to people and they're like,
link |
oh man, George is the same as he's always been.
link |
I see him in the gym training now and again, giving advice now.
link |
And it seems like Joe has always been consistent.
link |
And it's neat to watch someone not compromise on their values and not change
link |
And not, you know, periodically, like, you know, again, we all make mistakes.
link |
Like you have a bad day or this or that.
link |
And an apology needs to be issued or even my bad or this or that.
link |
And you're like, yeah, and they just move on that they're not afraid to be
link |
themselves and they're not afraid to be wrong.
link |
They're not afraid to make a mistake.
link |
As you mentioned, open mind and some like, so what are the correct beliefs to
link |
have about this that I know going in, everyone's going to be okay with what
link |
I'm saying, which is usually the beginning of a conversation that's
link |
going to go nowhere.
link |
And, uh, it's, it's neat to see, um, the things I guess that he's created on
link |
his own as a result of the authenticity that's there.
link |
And it reminds me of like Dave Chappelle.
link |
And, and again, I don't know, I've never met Dave, but it's neat to see
link |
someone that's clearly again, authentic in their own way, doing their own
link |
And they're because of that, they're above the corporate nonsense.
link |
But what's funny, I think the message behind all of it is, Hey guys, we
link |
all are, I can't promise you that I'm going to have money.
link |
Joe couldn't promise you that he's going to have money.
link |
Now it ended up working out, but he was above that nonsense from the jump.
link |
And he just continued to be above it by never giving it any mind and just
link |
going like, yeah, I'm going to be a reasonable person.
link |
I'm going to try to learn.
link |
I'm going to try to grow.
link |
And, uh, if I say something annoying, you can come and talk to me about it.
link |
We can get to the bottom of it.
link |
And I'm like, if I need to say my bad, thanks, appreciate it.
link |
And if I don't need to, I'm like, Hey, I still appreciate the talk.
link |
I'll shake your hand and we'd carry on and we'd go our separate ways and
link |
hopefully I'll treat you with respect.
link |
You treat me with respect and that's about it.
link |
And I guess I think it's a lesson that it can work out no matter what you
link |
don't have to count out to like these weird powers that be.
link |
And whether you're at this level or at this level, but you can live your
link |
life the way that you want.
link |
And as you mentioned, talk to your friends, hang out, be happy.
link |
And it just so happens that that resonates with people.
link |
It actually reminds me of like, uh, speaking to MIT and being in Boston is
link |
like a good will hunting.
link |
You know, like, again, that's what did he really want to do?
link |
He could have gone this way.
link |
Could have gone that way.
link |
And it was an interesting story, but it's like this person wants to hang out
link |
with his buddies and wants to do other things.
link |
And again, it happens to be brilliant and happens to be able to do all these
link |
other things, but there was.
link |
I guess it's like, at least in my mind, a story of authenticity as well.
link |
And it was both the same thing in the Robin Williams character.
link |
And I just think that that's a message cause watch watching things occur on
link |
the internet as they do now.
link |
Think so many things playing out in the public eye.
link |
I feel like so many private or otherwise formerly private discussions and
link |
disputes and, and, you know, interactions now become, they all have a, a, well,
link |
what is this going to say when it goes public?
link |
So how can I couch what I'm saying?
link |
Or how can I word this in a way that's going to get people on my side or use
link |
the right buzzwords and not use the wrong buzzwords.
link |
And it's just neat to see people.
link |
You know, in their own way, flip the bird to the head, because I just think
link |
that that's, that's just not how a human being is meant to think or interact.
link |
I'm curious what you think about the thing that recently has, you know, me like
link |
hosting this podcast, I sometimes think about like, who should I talk to and not
link |
in terms of like, it's the, the old Hitler question now, Hitler, I would definitely
link |
talk to because post world war II, because everyone knows he's evil.
link |
The question, whether you talk to Hitler in 1937, like when people who are really
link |
students of what's going on, understand that this is a very dangerous human being.
link |
But a large number of the part of the world are like, well, he's a leader who
link |
cares for Germany.
link |
So the question I have, it's interesting to me, it involves a particular person
link |
named who also lives in Austin, Texas named Alex Jones.
link |
I don't know if you're familiar with the guy.
link |
I am familiar with Mr. Jones.
link |
I've actually recently just listened to Infowars, like one episode of his show,
link |
I guess that he does every day.
link |
And it kind of reminds me of a time in college when I drank too much tequila.
link |
There's no turning back.
link |
Like, it's like, like the mistakes you make that like, it's, I mean, you don't
link |
know where you're going to wake up, you don't know who you're going to kill or
link |
not kill or steal or rob, it's unclear.
link |
So that, it felt like I was getting pulled into a dark place where pretty
link |
much everybody is a pedophile that's trying to control the world.
link |
So Bill Gates definitely is a pedophile.
link |
Everybody in power, anybody in power, there's a kind of a deep skepticism
link |
about power and a conspiratorial way to see the world where everything is
link |
like dark forces in all corners.
link |
It's like the way you feel when you're a kid, that there's a monster hiding
link |
Which is also why you leap over the bed from like four feet away.
link |
There's a strategy.
link |
So, but he says that you're just being weak.
link |
You need to look under the bed.
link |
Under the bed, there's monsters and we need to be aware of them because
link |
they're growing, they're multiplying.
link |
And they're touching children.
link |
They're touching children.
link |
So it all connects.
link |
But the, the, I, when I listened to him and I thought about like, do I want
link |
to talk to him on this podcast, for example, when I listened to his
link |
conversation with Joe Rogan, the two times he talked on there, to me,
link |
it was somehow entertaining.
link |
Like it was fun to listen to.
link |
It's fun to listen to a madman go on for four hours because it's almost
link |
Like, this is what I talked to Joe about.
link |
When people try to censor Alex Jones, Joe says that the people who try
link |
to censor him don't give enough credit to the intelligence of human
link |
beings to like, understand like that, like what a person says on a
link |
large platform does not necessarily is not the truth.
link |
You can be a madman and say crazy things and people are intelligent
link |
enough to hear certain things being, when they're said like the earth
link |
is flat, they can, they can be intelligent enough not to all of a
link |
sudden start believing that the earth is flat.
link |
Like they, they're intelligent enough to sort of select different
link |
ideas and be able to enjoy the theater of a particular ridiculous
link |
over the top conversation without being sort of influenced to where
link |
they start believing like toxic set of beliefs.
link |
Now there's a lot of sort of other kinds of people, especially now
link |
with cancel culture that say, well, you don't want to give platform
link |
to crazy people that ultimately whose beliefs might lead to dangerous
link |
Like, and I see it very often now with conspiracy theories that go,
link |
that go like way too far.
link |
Like for example, would, I, I'm not, I haven't looked into it, so I'm
link |
sorry, I will look into it, but it hurts my heart to see that on Bill
link |
Gates, in my opinion, the person who has saved and improved more lives
link |
than probably any human history, literally because of the money he's
link |
invested in helping, like just, just the work he's done on like malaria
link |
in Africa, the number of people he's helped is huge.
link |
And yet every interview, anything you see now on Bill Gates, everyone
link |
is calling him, I believe haven't looked into it, but I believe
link |
everyone's calling him a pedophile.
link |
I don't know the full structure of it, but it's, it's just a very, it
link |
feels like an army of like, it feels like it's hundreds of thousands
link |
That's what it feels like.
link |
It might be a much smaller percentage, but it feels like a huge number
link |
of people are calling him a pedophile.
link |
So that's the, that's the flip side.
link |
If you allow, if you give platform to conspiracy theories like that,
link |
then you start to have bigger and bigger percent of the population
link |
believe in these crazy things.
link |
I just, I wanted to put it out there.
link |
Cause I don't know what to think of that.
link |
If you put yourself in Joe Rogan's shoes, if you put yourself in my
link |
shoes, if you put yourself just in your own shoes, I mean, I'm even
link |
I'm in my shoes right now.
link |
If you're staying in your shoes, just stay in your shoes.
link |
Can I have your, would you talk, would you give platform to people like
link |
Alex Jones, would, would you talk to somebody like Alex Jones or, or not?
link |
Uh, I, yes, I would.
link |
And I feel very strongly about this, honestly.
link |
Um, well, I think that it's, it's an interesting thing and I, I would
link |
just say a lot of times, um, I can understand, you know, very, very
link |
clearly why people would take issue with the idea of, I guess what they
link |
proceed to be amplifying this man's voice, this man's reach, um, you
link |
know, as, as a demonstrable negative.
link |
But I think, um, you know, when you take a step back further, uh, the,
link |
the cure is more damaging than the disease and significantly.
link |
So, um, I guess I think that I'm very, very wary of, I think being where
link |
you mentioned Alex Jones being wary of power and people with it, that's
link |
a lot of times there's a lot of truth and validity to crazy things that
link |
people say it's the conspiracy theories that stick are the ones that sound
link |
credible, at least quasi credible in some aspect.
link |
And it's almost like it seems to me like an anchor in people's mind.
link |
And it is also funny to me, obviously the, the Bill Gates, it's so funny
link |
to tar people with things like pedophile, racist, rapist, like, these
link |
are things that we're basically trying to pick words that no one can ever
link |
support someone who does these things.
link |
And that's, you know, and that changes year by year.
link |
Like currently pedophile is totally in as a thing to call somebody just,
link |
just as a, it used to be communist or Marxist Cleveland Browns fan, you
link |
know, like, come on, you know, actually nobody likes the Browns.
link |
So I'll agree with you.
link |
That was, that's why I picked them.
link |
That's the trick is you find a group of people that nobody likes.
link |
That's the move, but, uh, yeah, that's a creepy thing though, because
link |
that is, that is the creepy thing is like, if people are always looking
link |
for groups of people are always looking for, and I find this really deeply
link |
disturbing, um, like, Hey, so who's the guy that we can all get away with?
link |
You know, just treating like dirt, who's the guy that I can be a dick to?
link |
I can just walk up and punch in the face and no one's going to say anything.
link |
And it's, even if I, you know, people do that with, whether it's literal
link |
Nazis or someone that I called a Nazi, you know, I guess what's the bigger issue,
link |
this person's ridiculous beliefs or what I'm doing.
link |
And you mentioned Hitler before, and obviously Mein Kampf being a, you know,
link |
like the outline for some of the things he did later and when the evil was it
link |
always there, did it, did it take root later on or flourish later on?
link |
But was, was Adolf Hitler a problem because he had crazy ideas or
link |
because he did things?
link |
I think it's because it's not, I think I know it's because he did things.
link |
Now, if I'm going to start punishing thought crime, I, I'm going to have to
link |
start punishing thought crime.
link |
And that's a terrifying concept.
link |
Even if I'm right about the certain, about the objectively correct about the
link |
things that I decide to call out of bounds, who put me in charge and made me
link |
arbiter of good taste and how long until I did it, did it, did it, did it, did it
link |
long until I decide that something else is, is out of bounds.
link |
It's, it's always a sliding scale or it's always a sliding standard.
link |
And I find that, that, you know, to be more of a concern than people doing
link |
crazy things, because I guess if you mentioned Alex Jones, you know, putting
link |
out ridiculous, ridiculous ideas, ridiculous theories, I think that most
link |
people don't look at Alex Jones as a credible person.
link |
Now I'm not going to pretend to be deeply read into all of his beliefs or the
link |
things that he's trying to peddle.
link |
Um, but there's plenty of things that are quasi mainstream that I think on
link |
with this side or that side that maybe not comparably ridiculous, but are, you
link |
know, particularly in hindsight or, you know, or we're not, or, or silly.
link |
And I guess, uh, the idea of, of getting a group of people together to decide
link |
what we're not going to tolerate is a very, very tricky thing.
link |
And I think that, you know, it reminds me of law or, you know, even, you
link |
know, religion when it gets to like, what are the things that we don't like?
link |
How do we feel about rape?
link |
It's like, no, under no circumstances.
link |
Is that an acceptable behavior murder?
link |
No, that's not acceptable behavior.
link |
Killing, I don't know, kind of depends on the situation.
link |
Were you justified?
link |
Were you acting in self defense?
link |
So it's not now murder is a specific type of killing the same way, you know, other
link |
things should be a specific type of something else.
link |
But I guess we, we draw the line of murder.
link |
We say, if you want to exist in our society, you can't do this.
link |
This cannot be done.
link |
And then we go theft.
link |
If someone said, Hey, I murdered that guy.
link |
Can you understand where I'm coming from?
link |
I might say, yeah, I'll hear you out.
link |
It doesn't mean that I think you're right, but I'm like, have you ever been wronged
link |
so deeply that you could imagine that you could kill someone?
link |
I'm like, no, I haven't, but I could conceptualize someone doing that.
link |
And I'm like, yeah, okay.
link |
And you still need to go, you still need to face, you know, criminal justice as we
link |
have it in our system, or at least that's how we've decided.
link |
Yeah, there's, it's interesting.
link |
You have to be able to like, there's, if you look at the history of discourse in
link |
this country, I think it's still true, but I'm not sure it's changed since 9 11 is,
link |
uh, it used to be impossible to criticize, um, a soldier.
link |
It was easier to criticize war.
link |
It was harder to criticize soldiers for allowing themselves to be the tools of war.
link |
I tend to be, maybe it's the Russian upbringing.
link |
It's the, it's the combat thing.
link |
I tend to romanticize war and soldiers.
link |
I see soldiers as heroes, but I've also heard people that not only say that soldiers
link |
are, uh, war is bad.
link |
They say soldiers are bad.
link |
What's their argument?
link |
It's, it's the kind of a libertarian view that they're basically slaves to evil, right?
link |
War is evil and they're, they're given, they are suspending their moral and ethical, like,
link |
as like duties as a human being to become the tools of evil.
link |
That's the sort of the argument.
link |
If you see war as evil, I mean, I think it's useful to hear that, but there's for a long
link |
part in history that was completely unacceptable.
link |
Same with abortion.
link |
If you see abortion as murder, I mean, if I classify it in that, if I put it in that,
link |
in that basket, it starts, we're living in the midst of like a genocide.
link |
Looked at from that perspective, could you feel how people could be deeply upset by abortion?
link |
You go, of course.
link |
Looked at from a different perspective, you say, I don't believe it to be murder.
link |
That's not how I see it.
link |
Then you go, oh, well, if that's the genesis of your, your thought process, then you're
link |
Now, now I see how we can come to a different thing, but I guess we go, well, abortion is
link |
Therefore, if you support it, you support murder.
link |
That's a convenient way for me to tar you.
link |
But I guess that's kind of coming back to the Alec Jones.
link |
I'm, I'm just a nuance.
link |
It's a, you have to have the nuance in these kinds of conversations and I have to be willing
link |
to have the conversation and I have to be willing to sit down.
link |
If I can't sit down across from like the most violently racist, angry, hypothetical internet,
link |
you know, conceived person that none of us have ever actually met in real life, but are
link |
hopefully not, you know, and go like, well, of course I believe that this person's wrong,
link |
but allow me to change, do my best.
link |
I'll hear them out and I'll go, no, I can go point by point and explain where this guy
link |
or this girl is wrong and hopefully bring them over to a more reasonable position where
link |
they will have better beliefs and they will like objectively better beliefs and beliefs
link |
that will, will, and they'll treat other people better.
link |
Why would I want to marginalize this person?
link |
I might not want to talk.
link |
I might not want to invite them to my barbecue if they're acting like a jerk all the time,
link |
but how could I, would it not make the world a better place if I'd hear them out and they
link |
go, look, if you're going to sit down and talk with me, we're going to have to have
link |
I'll hear what you have to say.
link |
And if I can't, if I can't explain to someone why their ridiculous belief is wrong, then
link |
I might, I must not be so confident in my position.
link |
And I guess that's where I come back to the Alex Jones thing.
link |
As you mentioned, you know, with, with Bill Gates and, and you're much more familiar with,
link |
with the specifics of all the good that he's done, but you know, again, he's been an unbelievable
link |
force for good, you know, in this world.
link |
You can list A, B, C, D things that the man has, has done, that his foundation has done
link |
and, you know, positive things.
link |
And then the other people could speculate about ridiculous, crazy levels of, of evil,
link |
but you can't produce any evidence for that sort of thing.
link |
Because if you could, the man will find himself in some trouble, you know?
link |
And anyway, I guess what I would, would say is that why you can't force me to accept the
link |
truth the same way you could write down two plus two equals four on a piece of paper and
link |
show me how it works.
link |
And I could say, no, but that doesn't make it not true.
link |
And you've still given yourself an opportunity to present your case.
link |
You've presented it to me.
link |
And you've also, for anyone listening and watching, you know, you've been able to critically
link |
assess what's gone on, you know, or critically address back and forth, you know, kind of
link |
the, the discourse.
link |
And I think that you almost, you're making your case for the public.
link |
So I guess like, you know, when it comes to just never not engaging with these people,
link |
that seems to me to be cowardly.
link |
And I think that that's a, something that we're seeing in society right now, I think
link |
we're seeing a crisis of courage in society all over the place.
link |
And I think that's where we're seeing poor leadership.
link |
I think we're seeing understandable things happening everywhere, but we need stronger
link |
voices and stronger, stronger beliefs that have a conviction and are willing to engage
link |
with others, not just turning into a shouting contest and not, I didn't win because there's
link |
Oh, I voted, I outvoted you.
link |
But that's a stand in for bullets.
link |
That's saying I won because there's more of me.
link |
That doesn't mean that I'm right because plenty of horrible and unpopular now things have
link |
been very, very deeply popular in the past and would have won a popular vote.
link |
Does that make them right?
link |
I'd say clearly not.
link |
So I guess you'd hope that we engage with these people and that you can do your best
link |
to bring them over to a more reasonable position if you believe that you have one.
link |
And if you can't, well, at least you made the effort.
link |
And I think that that's something where martial arts shows the value.
link |
It's like, do you know if you're going to go win your next fight?
link |
I'm like, I have no idea.
link |
I will proceed forward with full effort and I will fight with dignity.
link |
I'll fight with honor and I'll fight with courage and I'll use everything that I have
link |
and I will play within the bounds of the game and that's that.
link |
And the result will be what it'll be.
link |
But I'll walk into and out of that ring with my head held high because I will know that
link |
The outcome, the specific outcome is not in my control.
link |
It's just strongly in my influence.
link |
And I think that that's something that helped me, that martial arts has taught me because
link |
other times, even when I was successful or unsuccessful, I would focus on if I won, I
link |
won, therefore I'm good.
link |
I lost, therefore I'm bad.
link |
This other guy won or lost, therefore, as opposed to evaluating their method.
link |
And I think it's so easy when we're taking a bird's eye view of things to not evaluate
link |
how someone's doing things.
link |
You're not evaluating my process.
link |
You're simply evaluating my outcome.
link |
And I could have stumbled into something very, very good or very, very bad.
link |
And we can look back and I think that's the value of history.
link |
I mean, I don't mean to get on my dang high horse, but it's like this value of history
link |
is we can see the unbroken chain or the chain of events that led us somewhere.
link |
And then only with the eyes of history can we truly evaluate things unless we're in
link |
the room watching it happen.
link |
And I guess that's, again, where we start to go most of the big, bad, scary things that
link |
have happened in history that are done particularly on an industrial scale, which implies governmental
link |
power and things like that or the equivalent, involve groups of people getting together
link |
and going, hey, we're not going to deal with that guy, giant groups of people.
link |
So maybe we're right this time, but maybe we're wrong next time.
link |
And I guess I would be back to the Gandalf putting on the one ring.
link |
I would be very, very hesitant, even if we thought we were in the right to simply try
link |
to try to marginalize just on general principle.
link |
Even people like Alex Jones, whom on their face are pretty ridiculous.
link |
Like you said, you should sit down with Adolf Hitler and talk to the man.
link |
I agree with you to play a little devil's advocate is Alex Jones might be a bad example.
link |
But if we look at, because he has a face, he is a human, he's a real person.
link |
There's also trolls on the internet for Chan.
link |
The worry I have with those folks is that, and there might be parallels to martial arts
link |
is they practice guerrilla warfare, meaning they don't necessarily want to arrive at the truth.
link |
They just always want to cut at the ankles of the powerful.
link |
Like they want to always break down the powerful.
link |
And even if they, I mean, it's, they turn everything into a game.
link |
So they let's see if we can make the world.
link |
Let's see if we can make a trend that Bill Gates is a pedophile, right?
link |
They make it into a game.
link |
They get excited about this game.
link |
They see the powerful.
link |
Let's see if we can convince that, like, who is the most positive person we can think of.
link |
Let's see if we can turn them into evil.
link |
And they've tried that with like everybody and it seems to stick and they're good at it.
link |
And some would argue, whatever you think about our current president, that he has some elements
link |
of that, which is he's figured out whatever this music of social discourse that's going on,
link |
he's figured out how to always troll the mainstream flow of consciousness.
link |
He always kind of says stuff that annoys a very large number of people.
link |
And he enjoys that because it's like taking the powerful, taking the way things were before.
link |
And he like shakes it up by saying the most inappropriate thing, almost on purpose or
link |
instinctually and so on.
link |
The problem I have with that is that doesn't, the powerful thing there is it brings those
link |
in power down a notch.
link |
That's a great thing.
link |
The negative thing is it doesn't push us closer to a nuanced, careful, rigorous discourse
link |
It's like showing up to a party and just like starting to yell.
link |
It doesn't create a good conversation.
link |
It just makes everything into a game where truth doesn't even seem like a thing we can
link |
even hope to achieve.
link |
And I guess, as you mentioned, we'll come back to another movie because I don't do books
link |
Some people just want to watch the world burn, right?
link |
And I guess there's, that's a creepy, creepy kind of urge that some people have.
link |
And then also is some people you're like, hey, would you like to throw a brick through
link |
that glass window?
link |
You're like, yeah, sure.
link |
Like, no, I'm not going to do that because I think about what's going to occur.
link |
Like something's going to be hurt, someone's property not going to do it versus, hey, you
link |
want to see what will happen?
link |
Kids are always like, I have my son, he grabs Spider Man and drops him on the table.
link |
Spider Man didn't fall, Sean.
link |
Like, he dropped him, you knocked him off the table and he'll grin.
link |
And basically, it's an interesting thing, like you said, that these people are appealing
link |
to and also almost like the little dog factor of like people do want to watch the powerful
link |
get taken down a notch for all the good and the not good of that.
link |
Just plenty of people, it seems to me, that have found their way to incredibly high positions.
link |
Some have just found themselves there and many, many, many, many, many people, men and
link |
women of all backgrounds are brilliant and have worked hard.
link |
And yeah, of course, there's luck and there's luck into everything.
link |
LeBron James, in spite of being the best basketball player on God's green earth, is fortunate
link |
that he didn't get hit by a car.
link |
It's fortunate he didn't tear his knee, but thankfully, we get to see all these things.
link |
But I guess if people don't have any skin in the game, you never know what they're going
link |
And I think that's the problem with the internet.
link |
You know, that people get to be nameless, be faceless.
link |
That's why guerrilla fighters are outside of the bounds of war.
link |
Like you don't have a uniform on.
link |
Like, I don't know who you're from.
link |
You don't get the same treatment that a soldier gets for MP.
link |
Well, that's crazy.
link |
Actually, there's reasons for this, because otherwise people are able to assail things
link |
and there's no one responsible.
link |
There's no way to go and say, hey, where did this come from?
link |
What's the root of this?
link |
How can I address this?
link |
And I think that's the problem of the internet, the problem of Twitter.
link |
There's a problem in places like 4chan.
link |
I wouldn't mind seeing that type of stuff go away, if I'm frank.
link |
But that's not the same thing as people with a face, people who are willing to stand there
link |
and say, hi, my name is so and so.
link |
Even if I have ridiculous beliefs, hopefully people will hear me out.
link |
And then if I'm wrong, educate me.
link |
But I guess you hope that the real, I guess, in my mind, antidote to all of this silliness
link |
And I think that that's something that we're critical thinking is not necessarily.
link |
I went to school in America, and I feel very fortunate.
link |
But critical thinking is not something that's focused on.
link |
I mean, it's tough.
link |
It's almost like talking about jujitsu.
link |
It's tough to teach critical thinking when I don't know any words.
link |
You have to teach me techniques.
link |
You can't teach me to be an artist.
link |
But recognize that the techniques are the beginning, not the end.
link |
Ultimately, it's the artistry that we are searching for, not just the science or the
link |
biro memorization.
link |
And I guess you'd hope that people's ability to think critically and recognize that majority
link |
rule or whoever's loudest does not mean that they're right by any stretch of the imagination.
link |
And we don't appeal to that.
link |
And we don't bow to that.
link |
We'll help them to help inoculate them against the ridiculous things that come out of these
link |
places, these dark places that are objectively not great.
link |
But I guess all circling back, even if we swatted these bad things out of existence
link |
right now, we've got to be very, very careful doing that because it's who's doing the swatting.
link |
This political group that's in power right now, the people that support our current president
link |
would maybe feel a certain way.
link |
The people that support another option would feel differently as to what exactly defines
link |
And I guess that's what gives me pause.
link |
But also the grace thing.
link |
I tend to believe that the technology, you said education, but the platforms we use like
link |
Twitter and Reddit and all these platforms have a role to play to teach us grace.
link |
Meaning they should help us incentivize the kind of behavior that is incentivized in real
link |
Like being a dick in real life is not incentivized.
link |
Like one on one interaction.
link |
Like there's cases where it is, but usually being kind to each other is incentivized.
link |
On the internet, it's not.
link |
Like you get likes for mocking people in a funny, in a humorous way.
link |
And it can be dark kind of mocking, depending on the community.
link |
You can go to the appearance.
link |
If somebody is a little fat or a little too skinny, you can comment on their appearance,
link |
the hair, the way the hair looks, like the appearance stuff.
link |
It could be on the people comment all the time on the level of eloquence of my speech.
link |
It's creepy though watching previously, like this used to be low brow though.
link |
Like people doing this type of stuff, it's creepy watching like our political figures
link |
get into this type of game.
link |
But again, it's a little bit refreshing, right?
link |
It's the, my hope with Donald Trump was, is that he would shake up the people who wear
link |
Usually the, like if you're from DC, I remember like showing up, I actually didn't wear what
link |
I usually wear in DC cause I was like, everybody's wearing a suit and tie when I was like giving
link |
Except for Mudge, who wears jeans and a t shirt.
link |
Mudge doesn't give a damn.
link |
Mudge is a forever renegade.
link |
But I don't even remember what, oh yeah.
link |
So my hope with Trump was that he would shake up that system to say like, to inject new
link |
ideas, to inject new energy.
link |
Of course, the way it turned out is different, but like there's, it turns out that you might
link |
want to have somebody who's like an Andrew Yang type character who is full of ideas that
link |
are very different and inject the energy, new energy into the system through youthful
link |
new ideas versus through the troll that like, that's very good at sort of mocking and like
link |
playing outside the rules of the game.
link |
But Trump did reveal powerfully, I don't know what to think of it, that it's just a game
link |
and you don't have to play by the rules.
link |
That's both inspiring and dark.
link |
Deeply depressing, right?
link |
Yeah, and I don't know what to do with it.
link |
I don't, I mean the same, I'm not drawing parallels, not drawing parallels between our
link |
president and Adolf Hitler, but it's certainly, and there's a lot of, in history, a lot of
link |
positive and a lot of negative things happen when charismatic leaders realize they don't
link |
have to play by the rules.
link |
You can just flip the table.
link |
It's that Kevin Spacey show.
link |
House of Cards, where you just flip the table or whatever.
link |
You don't have to play by the rules of the chess game.
link |
You can flip the table.
link |
One wonders if that's always been done in private, you know?
link |
I guess, because that's, I mean, even look, obviously, the United States is a republic,
link |
but we had Bush, then we had Clinton, then we had more Bush, then we had President Obama,
link |
then we were about to have another Clinton.
link |
That's fairly creepy.
link |
But now we added another, I mean, I'm sure we'll have a generation of Trumps now.
link |
I'm Russian, so I think we humans like kings still and queens.
link |
There's something, we're attracted to the thing we talked about, coaches.
link |
There's something in us that longs towards that authoritarian control.
link |
One of the beautiful things about America, the Second Amendment, is we also like individual
link |
That's one of the unique aspects at the founding of this country and still, and for me, is
link |
the beacon of hope that somehow there's the fire of freedom burns in like that Texas feel.
link |
That gives me hope.
link |
The FU energy that revolts against the power, which as we discussed, power corrupts and
link |
ultimately leads to degradation of whoever's ruling the people.
link |
It's interesting though.
link |
It seems to me, maybe I'm just, I don't know if I'm reading this properly when I see it,
link |
but it seems to me that, like you said, that flip the bird, I'm going to do me within reason.
link |
As long as I'm not hurting you, is idea that very much, at least in my mind, defines the
link |
American ideal or at least part of the consciousness of the United States is under attack to a
link |
If only I can think to maybe a generation behind us, it's becoming more collectivist
link |
for all the good and also the not good of that.
link |
And it's not in terms of policy at this point, but just in terms of consciousness.
link |
And I wonder if that's an internet thing.
link |
People are more in touch with one another than they've, as far as I can tell, have ever
link |
been, or at least more than in my lifetime.
link |
And the rest of the world seems much closer than it did.
link |
Living in Virginia, California seems very far away.
link |
Being on the internet, it's just right there.
link |
I can hear about it.
link |
I can interact with people from there.
link |
I remember being in Tennessee at one time and reading about events taking place in the
link |
And that just seemed like a mile away.
link |
It seemed like an unbelievably far distance.
link |
And then another time when you're in DC, you just feel like, oh, you read about something
link |
happening in Paris.
link |
And it just feels like it's just right around the corner because DC is a seat of power where
link |
things are just occurring all the time.
link |
And I guess you wonder about that's where I come back to the group decisions to not
link |
listen to this person or to cancel this.
link |
We all, the moral majority, shall do the following as opposed to as long as you're not hurting
link |
me and as long as you're not hurting anyone else, I have to let you do, I have to let
link |
you be on general principle.
link |
Even if I don't like you, I'm very free to not like you.
link |
I'm free to speak out against you, but I'm not, it is not within my right or, and not
link |
And it's not, I would not be right to attempt to attack you.
link |
And that is an interesting thing though, when we see words being redefined or words being
link |
defined, whether it's toxicity, whether it's violence, if I think that what you're saying
link |
is your speech is by itself a violence or a precursor to violence, I'm justified in
link |
doing all sorts of things.
link |
And that creeps me out significantly because again, even if it ends up being pointed in
link |
a good direction initially, it's only a matter of time.
link |
And actually that brings me to another, yeah, I got all day.
link |
How much are they paying you?
link |
But we about say the Frank Herbert estate, not enough frankly, let's see.
link |
And how many books are there in Dune?
link |
That's a Jen question.
link |
You're also a fan of Dune?
link |
I read the whole series, but not a couple of the, I read all the prequels as well with
link |
the exception of a couple.
link |
Is there a book one for Dune?
link |
Dune would be book one.
link |
And even the prequels, it's still all better if you start, like I read Dune and then read
link |
the original, what is it?
link |
And then I went back and started to read some of the books.
link |
Just like watching Star Wars, you want to start episode four or whatever?
link |
That's the move and then stop at six, call it a day, watch The Mandalorian.
link |
Well, I thought you're not walking back here.
link |
No, I like The Mandalorian.
link |
No, it's not The Mandalorian.
link |
That is what I said.
link |
I was told that I was heartless for not liking Baby Yoda, who I...
link |
We don't talk about a couple of the movies, not including The Mandalorian.
link |
The Mandalorian is fine.
link |
It's the more recent movies that we don't like to talk about.
link |
No, the creature, the goofy creature with the...
link |
Do you ever see the Jar Jar Binks is actually like the Dark Lord of the Sith theory?
link |
That fixed the whole initial trilogy where he's goofing around and making it all the
link |
way through battles.
link |
And when you're like, wait a minute, he oops his way, walks over to a pool, does a triple
link |
backflip, falls in, you're like, it's just bizarre that you...
link |
This is the Alex Jones theory of Star Wars.
link |
He's actually running everything.
link |
He was the one that actually was like, hey, we should vote in Chancellor Palpatine, or
link |
Senator Palpatine, right before they put Jar Jar in charge.
link |
First off, what did they think was gonna happen?
link |
And second off, I just think that'd be great.
link |
You're like, oops, oh man, I guess he's the emperor now.
link |
That would have been great.
link |
But actually, to the cancel and all the other stuff, again, you'd hope that it gives pause.
link |
And I think about this for fighting, because a lot of times...
link |
I'll use this as an example, people fight fans in UFC, they love people that run out
link |
and try to murder each other.
link |
And it's entertaining, and it's super entertaining.
link |
But Floyd Mayweather doesn't resonate with people as much.
link |
It's like people start...
link |
I remember the time when Floyd was not as popular.
link |
Now people think people love Floyd because he's 50 and oh Floyd.
link |
And oh man, and finally he had so much success that we all can't help but recognize the man's
link |
genius and greatness.
link |
But prior to that, oh, he's boring, he's this, he's that.
link |
He fights with his circumspect, he's cautious, he's pressing.
link |
He's intelligent, deeply intelligent.
link |
And when you watch people go out and try to murder each other, you can flip a coin 100
link |
times and you could be lucky enough to get 100 heads, but it's still a coin flip.
link |
And I think that that's what's going on all the time is people are getting an outcome
link |
that they want, but it wasn't a well thought out situation.
link |
That's why you'll win by five in a row by knockout and then lose three in a row.
link |
And then people will go, well, what happened to that guy?
link |
He used to be so great.
link |
And you're like, no, he's doing what he's always been doing.
link |
It's just, it was getting great outcomes on a coin flip prior, and it's getting negative
link |
outcomes on a coin flip now.
link |
But I guess what I would say is it watches, it's interesting watching, I guess, societal
link |
beliefs become such a thing that we're almost adopting on a religious level if we're not
link |
If when I say religious level, I mean like pan life, like this is guiding all of my
link |
choices for all the good and the bad of that.
link |
And this is a Dune quote is, when religion and politics travel in the same cart, the
link |
writers believe that nothing can stand in their way.
link |
Their movements become headlong faster and faster and faster.
link |
They put aside all thoughts of obstacles and forget that the precipice does not show itself
link |
to the man in the blind rush until it's too late.
link |
And I think that that's, again, the pause.
link |
We go, oh man, thank goodness we have this guy that wants to rebuild Germany.
link |
He'll put us back where we need to be.
link |
And you stop questioning your own judgment, your own, you stop thinking essentially.
link |
I'm not allowed to question this.
link |
Of course this is correct.
link |
Of course, of course I'm right.
link |
I intended to do right.
link |
So of course my actions are correct.
link |
I mean, how many times have any of us intended to do something helpful and ended up doing
link |
And plenty of people who intend to do harm could by accident do something decent.
link |
And I guess it's, I'm not saying anything terribly, terribly insightful, but it's just
link |
one of those where it's hard to say in the moment.
link |
And that's where you hopefully caution, you would counsel some degree of caution.
link |
And that's what worries me with people deciding that we're all so right about this or we're
link |
all so right about that and attempting to rather than win the argument, silence the
link |
counter argument, no matter how crazy it may seem.
link |
Because I just think that that idea, even when it's pointed in a good direction initially,
link |
it's only a matter of time.
link |
You're amongst many things, a Jiu Jitsu black belt.
link |
One of the things that people are really curious about white belts and blue belts in Jiu Jitsu,
link |
but also people haven't tried the art is what does it take to be a Jiu Jitsu black belt?
link |
I think that, you know, everyone's journey is a little bit different, but the one thing
link |
that the, it was a Calvin Coolidge quote, you know, determination, persistence is the
link |
only thing that will win in the end.
link |
It will always win in the end.
link |
Not brilliance, not toughness, not education, it's persistence.
link |
And I think that having the belief that no matter what happens to me, I will proceed
link |
forward and I will figure out how to make this happen, hell or high water, I think is
link |
the one thing that ties together all of the people that I've ever met that made it through
link |
whatever it was that they were going through.
link |
Because, you know, sometimes you can get lucky and you can have an easy time or and that
link |
luck could be you had a good situation.
link |
It could be, I mean, like in the obvious sense of like where you're living, where you're
link |
training, what's going on, you had a good situation, you're unbelievably athletic.
link |
Oh, you're going to be an astronaut, you're brilliant and an Olympic athlete, you know,
link |
like, well, that's a fantastic situation.
link |
You know, you won the genetic lottery and I'm sure you worked hard as well, but you
link |
also won the genetic lottery.
link |
It's a determination is the one thing, though, because that person could have a very easy
link |
go of it initially and then tear their knee.
link |
And then they're no longer the superhuman physical specimen that they were.
link |
The only thing that will keep them going is persistence.
link |
And I think that that I would just say that persistence to say I'll just put one foot
link |
in front of the other.
link |
And sometimes I can see the path ahead and sometimes it's beyond my vision, but I will
link |
I may even slow down, but I won't stop.
link |
And that's the only thing that I can say that I've seen tie everyone together because there's
link |
so many ways to the top of any mountain and there's so many different personalities and
link |
skills and backgrounds involved.
link |
But everyone, everyone carries on.
link |
So at the core, the foundational advice is just don't quit.
link |
That's the lesson of martial arts.
link |
I think, you know, we think it's like how to be strong or how to be how to win.
link |
But in reality, it's like how to persist, how to endure, because it's all of us have
link |
been beaten so many times and gotten beaten up so many times and thought about quitting.
link |
Have I ever thought about quitting?
link |
I will never, ever quit ever.
link |
I can say that you might not me out.
link |
I won't be damned if I quit.
link |
What's the darkest moment?
link |
Is it injury related?
link |
Like, is it, uh, so like, to me, like two possibilities, I've fortunately never been
link |
seriously injured, but I think that's a dark place to be like having to be out for many
link |
months, uh, for, um, as Jen was saying, like with a head injury, especially like the uncertainty
link |
And then the other side is if you have big ambitions as a competitor, realizing that
link |
you're not as good, like those, those doubts were like, I kind of suck.
link |
How am I supposed to be a world?
link |
The greatest fighter of all time.
link |
If I, if, if like several people in the gym are kicking my ass, those are the two things
link |
that paralyze you.
link |
I think that everyone's darkest moment is maybe different looking from the outside for
link |
I wouldn't say that he's had injuries and he's had bad ones.
link |
I wouldn't say that was his darkest moment.
link |
I think for me, I would say some of my head injury was my darkest moment.
link |
And I've torn my ACL twice.
link |
I've torn my shoulders four times.
link |
I've had lots of surgeries.
link |
For me, the orthopedic injuries were not the most difficult.
link |
It was the brain injury for others that might be the case for them.
link |
Maybe they've never experienced an injury and maybe for them, that's their darkest moment
link |
from the outside, obviously Ryan can speak to this more, but for Ryan, I think it was
link |
the inability to, to perform at certain points to the upper, the missing of opportunities
link |
that for him, from my perspective, watching him go through and having seen various points
link |
of his growth from, from early purple belt on, I think the hardest time for him looking
link |
in obviously was when he would hit moments where he wasn't able to perform for various
link |
He couldn't get fights.
link |
He, he was having difficulties there.
link |
I think that that was the hardest point for him.
link |
Did you, did you think like with the head injury that you might not, never be able to
link |
I mean, I, I, mine was very, was really bad and it was just the one hit, but I had a looping
link |
memories for seven months.
link |
Didn't know it because when your brain's messed up, you're not even aware that you're
link |
And so I saw two different neurologists.
link |
I finally, like it took a very long time.
link |
I didn't know if I was going to be able to have like linear thoughts or read a book.
link |
I didn't know at certain points if I could listen to music again, you know, without it
link |
making my head hurt.
link |
And so it was almost two years before I woke up in the morning without a headache.
link |
Just waking up before I even start my day.
link |
And so that's even bigger than jujitsu.
link |
That's just, that's just hard.
link |
And I think that you can experience so many things.
link |
I've had all these injuries.
link |
We lost a baby when I was 15, 15 weeks.
link |
And we've had all these experiences and what the hardest point for me, not saying all those
link |
things weren't hard, but it's kind of like, well, did you go through these?
link |
You just realize like life goes on and you have to keep working at it and you have to
link |
And you asked me earlier offline, did I feel depressed and not for my head injury.
link |
I don't think that at least in the moment I had a, any recognition of that.
link |
It's kind of like, but I think different people's personalities.
link |
I have kind of the like buckle down and just keep going.
link |
And sometimes it's not until lots of time later that you realize, wow, that was really
link |
hard because you're just struggling to live and function and do the things that you need
link |
to do along the way.
link |
Do you mind jumping on just like this part of the conversation just for a few minutes?
link |
Do you mind, you know, just sitting together?
link |
Just for a little bit, it'd be cool if we put a face to it, you know, is it okay with
link |
Yeah, it's fine with me.
link |
It's fine with you.
link |
By the way, what was the head injury?
link |
If you don't mind sharing.
link |
Someone had dropped their knee on the back of my head during training.
link |
It was a lot bigger than me.
link |
So one strike to the back of the head is too much for someone.
link |
There's a reason that's outlawed in MMA, right?
link |
Someone 50 pounds heavier than you dropped their knee on the back of your head once.
link |
And it's the funny thing about getting hit, right?
link |
You never can really be sure what's going to happen.
link |
I think it's actually one of the magical parts about jiu jitsu where, like, if you choke
link |
me, if we know what's going to occur, you hit someone, they might be completely unharmed.
link |
You might be punching Tony Ferguson in the face and you need to hit him with a sledge
link |
hammer to affect this man.
link |
And then other people, they could get really badly hurt, which I guess it's back to your
link |
point about street fighting and things like that and serious, serious potential, second,
link |
third order consequences of any action that we take.
link |
But yeah, that's a tricky thing about getting hit.
link |
How does it make you feel that, like the really shitty thing about injuries to me was that
link |
like you start thinking like, well, if I did this one little thing different, like this
link |
wouldn't have happened today.
link |
Like one moment changes your entire life.
link |
Is that, do you think that way or is that totally counterproductive?
link |
You can't help but think that way when you've had the amount of injuries I've had, because
link |
I've had more than most people's fair share.
link |
As my orthopedic says, you don't want to win that.
link |
You don't want to win the contest of who's had the most.
link |
But since you have, you're building me a pool.
link |
Yeah, but I think you can't help but think that way sometimes, but I definitely don't
link |
think it's, I think it can be facilitated if you don't beat yourself up too much.
link |
Because thinking about why have I been subject to so many injuries and a lot of it comes
link |
to just almost all of mine in particular are people a lot heavier than me.
link |
But if I've been training martial arts 15 years, I'm obviously on the much smaller side.
link |
I've done thousands and thousands of rounds with people 50 pounds plus heavier than me.
link |
I've been years not training with anyone less than 50 pounds, which is 50 pounds is almost
link |
half my body weight.
link |
And when you also add testosterone, the natural physiological advantages of men, not just
link |
are they heavier with more mass, they're faster, they're more explosive, they're stronger
link |
if they're the same size.
link |
And so I think that the willingness to be in that environment over and over and over
link |
again creates a lot of strength, resiliency, willingness to continue.
link |
But it also like in order to do that, you almost have to, for me, the way I was approaching
link |
it was like pretend like I wasn't more vulnerable and just be willing to step in and step in
link |
and step in until you make it kind of thing until you make it kind of.
link |
Yeah, like I'll just one day I'll be strong enough.
link |
And you avoided injury for most, for most of those rounds, I would enjoy the problem
link |
as Ryan points out is that like you could do thousands of rounds, but if one person
link |
that size, that strength, that hover reacts in a way that you don't expect, it doesn't
link |
it's not like an oops, it's like always major.
link |
Do you regret any of it?
link |
I think that most no one I know has experienced the degree of injuries that I've experienced.
link |
And I started just at a time when 2005 is very different than now where you have the
link |
coaches have more control over what you're doing.
link |
They're more aware in general about a lot of the injuries.
link |
There's a lot more people who are hobbyists than when I started.
link |
They were hobbyists, but it was different kind of hobbyists, you know, than now.
link |
Now, our girls can train with other girls.
link |
They don't have to do thousands of rounds with somebody significantly more powerful
link |
And for the drawbacks and the benefits of that, you know, as with anything.
link |
So I think I think that I don't think I would go back and change it.
link |
There were times after one of my injuries where I said to Ryan, I said, I quit, I'm
link |
I'm not doing this anymore.
link |
I probably said it more than once, but there was one time I was really serious in 2012.
link |
I was really serious.
link |
I tore my shoulder.
link |
I had I was looking at missing a big competition again in the world for my second or third
link |
year in a row after injuries.
link |
And I said, I'd quit my job two years before.
link |
And I'm like, I'm done.
link |
And Ryan, before that had always been, you know, keep me focused.
link |
And then he kind of said, OK, if you want to be done, be done.
link |
Just just have a good time.
link |
No, I'm really done.
link |
I don't want to train anymore.
link |
And then, you know, I think he helped facilitate a moment for me to go visit a friend, some
link |
friends, some girls that were doing a girls camp who are close to my size or some friends
link |
of mine to go train.
link |
And I was like, oh, wait, I do love this thing.
link |
It's harder for me on a daily basis, but that doesn't mean I don't love this thing.
link |
And it really helped change my mind.
link |
I started to connect with other people, travel more myself because previously he had done
link |
that, but I hadn't really done that.
link |
I think there was a point where when I started YouTube, it was just for fun.
link |
I just wanted to sport after college.
link |
I played sports as a kid.
link |
I want to just want to exercise.
link |
I wasn't into the martial arts.
link |
He used to give me a hard time about it because he was always very, how can you not care about
link |
I just want to play sports.
link |
And Ryan was really big into kind of the philosophy side of the martial arts aspect.
link |
He used to give me a hard time.
link |
And I think after that moment, this moment where I looked at myself and I said, do I
link |
want to keep doing this, is when I started to appreciate jiu jitsu.
link |
It took off some of the pressure I'd been feeling, I think, as Ryan's girlfriend.
link |
But I had a full time job a long time.
link |
It was never my goal to be a jiu jitsu world champion.
link |
And I think after that moment where I was like, you know, I really do like this.
link |
I really do want to do this.
link |
I had this moment like any time where you're like, I'm doing this for me.
link |
I'm not doing this for him.
link |
And I think that that was really lucky for me because how often in our lives,
link |
do we have a kind of a challenge where we have to stop and we have to say, is this really
link |
How often in a relationship do you do that?
link |
How often in any type of lifestyle or job do you stop and do you really ask yourself,
link |
is something really difficult happened that you look and you go, am I just doing this
link |
because it's convenient and easy?
link |
Or is this what I really want to do?
link |
Yeah, I've had those moments.
link |
Like this podcast is one of those things.
link |
It's like you stop and think like, I actually love this.
link |
And it's, I had that with jiu jitsu too.
link |
I don't think I had said until like brown belt that I stop.
link |
I mean, yeah, it's when you first face real challenges, you think like, why am I doing
link |
I think most of my progression was why not?
link |
I think that's the right, the leap of faith.
link |
And then at a certain point you think like, why am I doing this?
link |
And if you can answer, honestly, that because I love it, it's kind of a liberating feeling.
link |
It's a, yeah, it's so powerful.
link |
It's an acceptance.
link |
Then you feel thankful for the opportunity to be there, right?
link |
Because you love it.
link |
And you go, man, this is great gratitude.
link |
Yeah, it's ultimately gratitude.
link |
Let me ask you this.
link |
So Ryan said like, what is it?
link |
I took over your thing.
link |
Yeah, nobody cares about Ryan.
link |
I wouldn't do that.
link |
I'll Photoshop him out or whatever.
link |
However you do that, it'd be great.
link |
Put Sean Connery's head.
link |
Just like a Dune ad over there.
link |
Sean Connery, I could get down on that.
link |
Is that the sexiest man in Sean Connery?
link |
In the Dune universe?
link |
That's my understanding.
link |
I think in any universe.
link |
Well, Myron Gosling, give him.
link |
We actually named our son after Sean Connery.
link |
He was in The Rock.
link |
That was, I love all those lame.
link |
Connery is probably the greatest movie of all time.
link |
Dude, his accent in Connery was so awesome.
link |
I don't know where it's from.
link |
Alabama, I guess, or something.
link |
I love that they got like Steve Buscemi in there.
link |
Like we need Steve Buscemi in this thing.
link |
Yeah, that's right.
link |
He's a prisoner in there.
link |
Greatest movie of all time.
link |
Should have won an Oscar.
link |
Dave Chappelle also in Blue Street with Martin Lawrence.
link |
And then, what do you call it?
link |
Robin Hood Men in Tights.
link |
Oh, Robin Hood Men in Tights was one of my favorites as a kid.
link |
But yeah, that's a good.
link |
We just listed off some really bad 90s movies, but.
link |
You take that back.
link |
For telling our age.
link |
So what, like in your view, I don't mean to, from like a smaller person, I guess.
link |
That's an interesting thing about Jiu Jitsu is like that small.
link |
I don't, I hope, hopefully it's not a bad thing.
link |
Like with all these like bigger people, you could still enjoy the art.
link |
Like what does it take to get a black belt to excel, to quote unquote, master the art?
link |
Gosh, everyone has such a different path.
link |
Ryan's promoted six, seven people.
link |
Something like that.
link |
And I think about half of them have had kids, have families, have other careers.
link |
At the time, some of them competed a lot.
link |
Some of them have never competed or rarely competed.
link |
Some haven't competed in a long time.
link |
Some had started different places.
link |
Everyone's had different journeys, even in our own little group of seven.
link |
I think only maybe only two or three were high level competitors of that group.
link |
At the higher belts, right, like brown, black, maybe.
link |
And so it's just different for every person.
link |
And that's something that we try to tell our students.
link |
We have 400 students.
link |
And do we have this?
link |
We don't really have anyone who's a stated other than like the coaches like Adam,
link |
but we don't have anyone who's like a stated high level competitor as a student at the moment.
link |
People look at our gym and go, it's lots of competitors.
link |
It's not lots of competitors.
link |
It's never been lots of competitors.
link |
And we've had ones and twos here and there.
link |
But really everybody's in it for the long term if they're in it.
link |
Sometimes the high level competitors are the ones that are more likely to drop off
link |
because they have a bit of success, particularly at blue or purple.
link |
And then they realize how hard it is at brown and black.
link |
And then they have a hard time continuing on that path.
link |
And then they can't look at themselves as a noncompetitor.
link |
They have a hard time continuing with Jiu Jitsu, I think.
link |
Whereas sometimes it's the guy who comes in as a white belt and he trains twice a week,
link |
twice a week, every week.
link |
And the next thing you know, he's been there for two or three years.
link |
Like, oh, he's a blue belt.
link |
He's a purple belt.
link |
He's a brown belt.
link |
And he's just consistent over a long period of time and willing to take the path.
link |
And no two people's path is exactly the same.
link |
No two people's lives are exactly the same.
link |
We have students who started as a white belt as a young adult with no responsibilities.
link |
And they train all the time.
link |
And then they have a job.
link |
Then they graduate college.
link |
Then they have a job.
link |
Then they have married.
link |
Then they have kids.
link |
Then they have different points in their careers and at different points in your life.
link |
Jiu Jitsu will be there for whatever way that you're willing to accept it.
link |
It's place, I think.
link |
Well, that's actually kind of back to the initial question we discussed about what makes
link |
a warrior and also what makes something or someone particularly impressive in my mind
link |
is like what they make out of what they have.
link |
One of my favorite movies ever is Forrest Gump.
link |
And it's obviously it's just if you can't because I've heard people go, Forrest Gump
link |
I'm like, I don't like you as a person.
link |
And you have no heart at all.
link |
But basically, it's the story of someone that tries hard.
link |
And it's like, yeah, but it's a funny movie.
link |
But it's like, you know, I guess you meet each person where they are, you know, and
link |
obviously you want everyone needs to be pushed.
link |
We all need to be pushed.
link |
We need friends and people around us that push us to be better versions of ourselves
link |
And as you mentioned, the people you spend all of your time around deeply impact you.
link |
And we have to be willing to be pushed.
link |
It takes a leap of faith for me to trust, for me to put some of myself in my, you know,
link |
I guess my ability, my control, my personal agency, as it were, in the hands of someone
link |
else that I trust and that I respect.
link |
But if I can do that, again, maybe I never become, you know, high level black belt competitor.
link |
But, you know, I had four of the things I was doing in my life.
link |
I also have a family.
link |
I have this, I have that, you know, what that person was able to accomplish in the martial
link |
arts relative to what they were able to put in this phenomenal, you know, other times
link |
someone could be a very successful black belt and in my mind be a bum because they could
link |
have been a lot more.
link |
And, you know, they could have done more.
link |
They could have focused more.
link |
And there's no shame in deciding that you don't want to do that.
link |
But whatever it is that you're invested in, I remember the Take It Uneasy podcast and
link |
that I loved because, you know, I'll just chill out like resting.
link |
It's like vacation.
link |
Oh, who wants to go on vacation?
link |
Yeah, I'll go on vacation for a day or two.
link |
You want to spend three weeks on vacation?
link |
Like, I kill myself.
link |
Like, get me out of here.
link |
Like, this is horrible.
link |
This is I'm a waste of life.
link |
I'm not doing anything useful.
link |
You're technically on vacation right now.
link |
Well, this is fun, though.
link |
It's like a one day vacation.
link |
But, you know, I'm sure you're thinking about jumping off of the building right now.
link |
But if you had to talk to me for, you know, like three days, I'm sure you'd probably
link |
shove me off the building.
link |
I don't blame you.
link |
But, yeah, but, you know, it's like you want to be pushing towards something because otherwise
link |
what's the purpose of being here?
link |
You know, it's not just a college.
link |
It's doing something useful, building, growing as a person, helping others do the same if
link |
that's within your power at any given time.
link |
But I think that's kind of the neat thing about martial arts is it can be many, many
link |
different things to many different people.
link |
You know, I finally, for instance, was able to get a college degree this year.
link |
That which I mean, it's not a big deal for most people, but for me it was a big deal
link |
because I was going back and finish.
link |
And I never envisioned ever going back.
link |
And that's a hard step to go back and finish.
link |
That's always heavy on you if you don't.
link |
I was just I was more proud of that than most things I've ever done, if I'm honest.
link |
You know, and it was neat and I really enjoyed it and it was the process of doing it.
link |
But, you know, are my academic credentials impressive?
link |
Like, not in the least.
link |
But for me, it's like it was a big deal for me personally to take that step and to go
link |
And I was I was proud of the the direction and because it would have been easy, like,
link |
do I need to do it?
link |
Like, no, I'm in our business.
link |
I'll keep fighting.
link |
But I was happy to take the time in between fights when I was when I was unbooked for
link |
an opponent to do something productive rather than just I'll just hang out.
link |
You know, like I can still train every single day, but I can also train and go to school.
link |
People go to the Olympics while going to school.
link |
I can I can do martial arts and go to school.
link |
One thing I got to ask is, you know, a bunch of women listen to this podcast if they haven't
link |
done Jiu Jitsu, I think it'd be kind of intimidating to step on the mat with a bunch of bros that
link |
like enjoy somehow killing each other.
link |
Like, how do you succeed in that environment to where you can learn this art, learn how
link |
to beat all those people up?
link |
Is there any advice?
link |
I mean, another way to ask that is like if any women listening to this are interested
link |
in starting Jiu Jitsu, like, is there advice for that journey?
link |
Honestly, I think it's just walking in the door and starting.
link |
Sometimes I don't know how to respond to that because I'm not I don't view myself as typically
link |
anxious, particularly in interactions with other people or new people.
link |
Shy is not a word that has been used for me by if you ask my family and they joke because
link |
our son talks a lot.
link |
He's advanced verbally and they're always like, oh, well, let's we know where he gets
link |
that from because he just doesn't stop talking.
link |
He narrates everything he does.
link |
And so they always tease because that's like I'm known for for kind of talking a lot.
link |
But so I haven't been typically I'm not I don't consider myself a shy person.
link |
So for me, going into a new room, a new group of people is, you know, there's always that
link |
you don't really know who they are, how they're going to treat you.
link |
But I typically but I don't have a lot of anxiety with that.
link |
So I don't if that's something that's going to put something up.
link |
I don't really know how to to address that particular feeling.
link |
But in terms of all of the rooms I've been and I have popped into gyms before I knew
link |
Ryan in Florida, like I traveled for my job in Germany and Florida and in California and
link |
places where where I don't know anyone, they don't know me.
link |
And I have never once had anyone be anything other than than kind and solicitous and helpful
link |
and long before when I was a white belt and a blue belt and didn't know anything and
link |
I didn't know anyone.
link |
And I just think that it's a community of people that it's so cool that no matter where
link |
you go in the world, I walked into a gym in Prague one time where only two people spoke
link |
English and and it was just yes, weird, you know, it's weird that like part of a group
link |
and they're like, Oh, let me tell you what it's like to be part of a cult, right?
link |
Yeah, but it's like a positive cult, like it for sure.
link |
That's what we would say as cultists.
link |
Yeah, that's true.
link |
I mean, we do need to murder everybody who practice Aikido.
link |
Yeah, that's this cult deeply believes it.
link |
No, but there is a like if you look at different kinds of games like chess and so on, like
link |
there's a skepticism.
link |
I mean, there's not a brotherhood, sisterhood feeling with Jiu Jitsu.
link |
It's like you can roll into most places.
link |
Even like with Judo, like I can see the contrast like because I've trained in Judo places.
link |
It it's more like tribal, like you walk in and like, who is this?
link |
Like there's that kind of feeling with Jiu Jitsu.
link |
There's less so there is a little bit with like the competitors.
link |
There's always like the competitors feeling each other out usually like the blue belts.
link |
But like outside of that, in terms of if you don't get the if you walk in with the vibes of just
link |
loving the art and just wanting to have a good time, you're like welcome.
link |
It's really fascinating.
link |
It's a really great thing.
link |
I think in as a woman, I think you you think you're walking into these rooms of these,
link |
you know, big, strong, tough guys.
link |
And if anything, I would I would say that they're almost like much more solicitous when
link |
a woman comes in there and not like they're just like hitting on you all the time.
link |
You know, it's just that you walk in and everyone is like, oh, cool.
link |
You want to do this thing that I love.
link |
Let me make sure you have a good experience and take care of you.
link |
And I think that's that's an experience that that I hope people have when they come into our gym.
link |
And and I've always felt when I walked into other gyms.
link |
And so, you know, we try our best to to make that comfortable.
link |
And it can be a little uncomfortable because there are when you walk into a male dominated
link |
environment, there's conversations and topics.
link |
There's a different style of camaraderie and joking that a lot of men will do that.
link |
Maybe some women are more uncomfortable with.
link |
I grew up with four brothers, so I kind of maybe was a little more desensitized to that.
link |
And I worked for the Department of Defense for a while, too.
link |
So before I do with the government.
link |
I'm already skeptical.
link |
I'm not going to ask you about UFOs then, because you're not going to tell me the truth.
link |
No, you just freaked out a lot of people.
link |
By the way, where's where's your school?
link |
Because people always ask like where?
link |
Well, we're outside of Washington, D.C., in Northern Virginia, in Falls Church.
link |
You always want to pick like, what's the best school if I travel to this place or if I want
link |
to move to this place?
link |
So that's well, I mean, obviously we're biased.
link |
But yeah, we're in the Washington, D.C. area.
link |
OK, we just took a little break.
link |
Let me ask you one thing that a bunch of people are curious about.
link |
You're one of the innovators.
link |
First of all, you're one of the great innovators and philosophers and thinkers in Jiu Jitsu,
link |
But you're also one of the innovators in terms of leg locks and the 50 50 position.
link |
And just like the fact that legs have something to do in Jiu Jitsu.
link |
The other popularizer innovator in the space is John Donoher and his whole group of guys.
link |
Do you have thoughts about their whole system of leg locks and their ideas about Jiu Jitsu
link |
Sure, I guess, you know, obviously, you know, John and the students at HENZO have been able
link |
to do fantastic things competitively in the past number of years.
link |
And, you know, you mentioned innovators in the in that kind of, you know, section of
link |
I would be I'd love to bring up some guys like Dean Lister, of course, Masakazu Imanari.
link |
In fact, a lot of what was going on in like nineties Japan, like combat submission wrestling,
link |
there was some crazy gnarly stuff that it's just it's on grainy VHS tape, but like stuff
link |
that if people were doing now, they go, oh, my God, that's brand new.
link |
Like there's it's it's been I think these are things that have been around for a while
link |
in various places.
link |
I first learned the 50 50 position, just like the leg entanglement of it from Brandon Vera,
link |
actually, at a seminar at Lord Irwin's Martial Arts thing in 2005.
link |
He learned it from Dean Lister, who used it to submit Alexandria Kakareko, really, really
link |
tough Nogi guy at ADCC on there in the run that Dean made to the to the gold medal in
link |
the absolute division, which was a great performance at the time.
link |
First American to do that.
link |
And, you know, and I actually saw a video.
link |
I mean, first, a boss rootin actually broke.
link |
I think Guy Mezger's foot with a 50 50 heel hook that he actually grabbed his heel and
link |
his and his toes went and in pancreases back when they had like the man panties in the
link |
high, high boots on.
link |
And that was gnarly.
link |
Boss rootin is underappreciated.
link |
It's like it's like he double grab like and oh, yeah, like, you know, his leverage is
link |
It's that's like a toehold that, you know, that goes the other way.
link |
And it's like it either doesn't work or breaks in half.
link |
And well, he's is people don't often think of boss rootin as an innovator, but he is
link |
in a way like he, you know, talk about like Elon Musk and first principles thinking in
link |
He like just feels like he just gets the job.
link |
He figures out like the simplest way to get the job done of breaking things and establishing
link |
control and hurting people.
link |
Remember that was back in the day boss.
link |
If you listen to boss rootin do any like commentary for any of the the big MMA shows or any MMA
link |
show way back when anytime guys were clinches like the guys roll for a knee bar.
link |
He was saying that way back when and now people are doing it all the time with varying degrees
link |
It's like it's also tough to be, I think, like a breakaway thinker.
link |
I mean, you know, group think is a real thing and group inertia.
link |
And it's it's neat to see, you know, particularly at a time when maybe that type of stuff was
link |
You know, someone going, hey, I'm going to I'm going to run off in this other direction.
link |
I think, you know, whoever, you know, the inventor of electricity in my mind is a lot
link |
more impressive than whomever not to say that the person down the line isn't impressive
link |
that comes up with an interesting way to use it.
link |
But when you think about just can you imagine we're sitting here like, yeah, people, I'm
link |
going to build an airplane.
link |
You're like, what are you talking about?
link |
I'm like, no, I'm going to do it.
link |
And of course, it's not going to be as good as the airplane down the line, the iterative
link |
things that happen later on.
link |
But just being able to go to dream something into existence that you haven't seen before
link |
and then make it happen, like takes an unbelievable like strength of character, almost like a
link |
force of will, because you have you're you're blazing a trail that hasn't been washed away
link |
That's the BJ Penn factor in, you know, winning the Jiu Jitsu World Championship.
link |
First non Brazilian to do that was back in 2001.
link |
And then Rafael Lovato later on.
link |
It's like he's you know, both of those guys are so unbelievably impressive in my mind
link |
for the same reason, you know, because they were out there winning at a time when that
link |
wasn't a common thing.
link |
Not that it's easy to win now.
link |
It's just there's not a psychological hurdle that needs to be left.
link |
I remember, you know, when I was early in Jiu Jitsu, like Americans weren't winning
link |
the world championships at any belt.
link |
I mean, BJ, we all knew BJ Penn because BJ Penn did it.
link |
But it was really, really uncommon.
link |
Now it happens, you know, on a semi regular basis.
link |
Of course, the Brazilians are so strong.
link |
Europeans are still strong.
link |
But in Australians are coming on as well.
link |
But it's definitely kind of an interesting thing.
link |
So to come back to, you know, John Danaher and the Henzo team, obviously, they're doing
link |
John's had some really, really great innovation there.
link |
And the systematization and the methodology that they're using is great.
link |
And it's neat to see that it's getting out there.
link |
I would just also want, I would encourage people to make sure that they're catching
link |
up on their history because obviously, you know, John's a brilliant instructor and has
link |
done things for the sport that are fantastic that haven't been done before.
link |
But, you know, none of us exist in a vacuum.
link |
And I've learned things from everywhere else.
link |
So, you know, John would say the same, I'm sure.
link |
And, you know, Dean Lister would say the same.
link |
And it's just neat when you can kind of trace the history of all of this happening because
link |
we've had, humanity's had two arms and two legs for some time, at least as long as I've
link |
But you mentioned, like, airplanes.
link |
Do you think there's something totally new to be invented in Jiu Jitsu still?
link |
Not totally new, but like the, you know, flying isn't new, but airplanes nevertheless made
link |
that much more efficient.
link |
Is there, like, new ideas to be discovered in Jiu Jitsu still?
link |
I'd say, the reason I'd say yes is the same reason I would say I believe in alchemy, even
link |
I've got some backing for this.
link |
You know, I guess I talk about this with a buddy of mine a lot, like, and facilitative
link |
versus not facilitative beliefs.
link |
And if I don't believe something is possible and I do no investigation towards it, I'll
link |
never find something even if it's there.
link |
It's almost like it's no different than me walking up on a group of people and going
link |
like, oh, man, look at these jerks.
link |
This is going to suck versus me going, oh, I wonder what these guys are up to.
link |
I'm about to have two very different conversations, even though the players in the game are no
link |
My internal constitution has changed because of how I've decided to approach the situation.
link |
So, although I wouldn't personally want to spend all my time trying to turn lead into
link |
gold because I don't believe that it's likely to work, only a person who's willing to spend
link |
his or her life in that pursuit will actually get to the bottom of that.
link |
And also, in the pursuit of that, they're likely to find other things.
link |
So, I think a lot of times the idea is that humanity is pushed forward by, you know, again,
link |
it's another Orson Scott Card one.
link |
It's like, you know, human beings are in this slog.
link |
It's paraphrasing, just in this slog over time.
link |
And then periodically, humanity gives birth to genius, like someone that invents the wheel,
link |
invents electricity, pushes us forward, you know, comes up with the idea of governance
link |
that doesn't, you know, just start and end with the point of a sword, you know.
link |
And, you know, these aren't common things.
link |
These are unbelievable advancements that, you know, just me sitting here, I didn't come
link |
up with them, but I just get the benefit of it.
link |
So, I guess what I would say is a lot of times these ideas are called crazy, you know, like
link |
as we discussed kind of offline.
link |
It's like, you know, Einstein was brilliant in his 20s and he was brilliant before that,
link |
I would suspect, but basically, you know, gets recognized later on in life.
link |
And of course, we all thought those were great ideas.
link |
The man was probably roundly mocked for giant chunks of his life.
link |
And I guess, so it's neat to, I would say there's definitely in my mind things that
link |
even if it's just combinations and new to me, new ways to see things, new ways to understand
link |
different depth of understanding, possibly new things, new positions, new ideas, because
link |
even if that's not true, the process of going through and acting as if it is and believing
link |
like that and focusing and trying to investigate will make any of us, will push us all forward.
link |
Whereas sitting there, you know, obsessing over the cult of our current knowledge, I
link |
think is the biggest, the biggest danger and the biggest cause of stagnation that exists
link |
And it starts with believing the impossible, which is kind of interesting.
link |
One of the things that's really inspiring to me is to see people out there, which sadly
link |
are rare, who kind of have a combination of two things.
link |
One is they have a worldview that involves, that includes a lot of ideas that are crazy.
link |
And the second part is they're exceptionally focused and competent in bringing that,
link |
whatever the ideas in that worldview to reality.
link |
So there's certainly a lot of people with crazy ideas.
link |
You know, there's a lot of conspiracy theorists.
link |
They have way out there beliefs about things, but they're not doing much to like make the,
link |
like build stuff grounded.
link |
Like they're not engineers or whatever.
link |
They're just like espousing different crazy ideas.
link |
But that's why you get like the Elon Musk type characters.
link |
And the reason I bring him up a lot is because like, there's not many others to bring up.
link |
It's like, there's not many examples of it through history.
link |
The people, I mean, the guy's convinced that we're going to colonize Mars.
link |
And basically everybody on earth thinks that's insane.
link |
Everyone except the guy that's going to do it, right?
link |
Except that's going to do it.
link |
And like, you can imagine like a couple of hundred years from now, people will,
link |
I mean, first of all, they won't, certainly won't remember the haters.
link |
They won't remember all the people.
link |
If they do remember them, they'll remember them in a sense like people were silly to
link |
think that this isn't the obvious path forward.
link |
Like from a perspective, that's what Elon talks about.
link |
Like it's obvious that we're going to expand throughout the universe.
link |
From his perspective.
link |
From his perspective.
link |
Like, but to me it is also obvious because like either we destroy ourselves or we'll
link |
expand beyond earth.
link |
Like, there's not many, well, maybe it's not completely obvious.
link |
I guess I share that worldview.
link |
There's the other possibility that we humans find a sort of an inner peace where the forces
link |
of capitalism will calm down and we'll all just meditate and do yoga and Jiu Jitsu and
link |
like relax with this whole tech thing where we keep building new technologies.
link |
But it's cool to have those kinds of people that just believe the big ambitious, crazy
link |
dreams because that's where it starts.
link |
If you want to build something, you have to first believe that when you also have to believe
link |
strongly enough that you're not vulnerable and I'm speculating, but it's like, I can
link |
only imagine how many people have told Elon that what he's doing is crazy.
link |
So not only did he dream it up, he dreamed it up, went with it and also went with it
link |
in the face of being told that it's not going to work.
link |
And then anytime, and then also stepped away from the bitterness because he's done a
link |
series of really crazy, impressive things.
link |
And that's only those little things that I'm aware of, but, and also staying away from
link |
the bitterness of every single time you did something good.
link |
Initially, all I do is talk down about you.
link |
And then eventually I act as, of course, of course, I never apologize.
link |
And yet you don't let that dampen your spirits for the next innovation, which is pretty incredible
link |
Yeah, it's kind of cool.
link |
I mean, it's contagious to spend time with the guy because he's not, it's, Rogan has
link |
the same look to him, which is interesting about these people is like, there's like a
link |
hater shield that he's like, he doesn't even like sense them.
link |
It feels like, like it doesn't, he thinks to Elon it's like, it's obvious.
link |
I mean, he keeps calling it like first principles thinking, like physics says it's true.
link |
Therefore it's true.
link |
Like he's convinced himself that like his beliefs are grounded in the fundamental fabric
link |
of the way the universe works.
link |
Therefore the haters don't matter.
link |
And I mean, that's kind of like a system of thought.
link |
He developed himself through all the difficulties, through all the doubt.
link |
He's able to take huge risks with basically putting everything he owes on the line multiple
link |
times throughout his life.
link |
Amidst all the drama, amidst all the doubts, amidst all like the, he's still able to make
link |
just clear, clearheaded decisions.
link |
It's, I don't know what to make of it, but it's inspiring as hell.
link |
Well, it's, I think it's something that's funny.
link |
I think like, I can only imagine, you know, history will look back on him as a brilliant
link |
person, but that's not the only, there's, there's a lot of maybe not numeric, not statistically
link |
speaking, but a lot numerically on a giant planet of, you know, billions of people, a
link |
lot of brilliant people.
link |
Well, you know, time, place, luck, fortune, all that other stuff.
link |
But at the same time, that clearly isn't the only determining thing in making Elon Musk,
link |
And obviously I don't know the guy from Adam and, but it's an interesting thing that it's
link |
not just his intellect, his belief system, his structure, how he's viewing the world.
link |
Like that's, did he, did he reason his way to that?
link |
What other factors came in?
link |
I'm really curious about that because I guess coming, it's, again, I feel really strongly
link |
about people's belief structure and, and this, the, how they view the world being more important
link |
than the engine behind it.
link |
You know, it makes someone resilient or not.
link |
It makes someone positive or not because you could have 10,000.
link |
I think about this for competitive stuff, you could have 10,000 things going properly
link |
and one thing going improperly.
link |
If you focus on the improper, you'll probably fix it at a certain point, which is good,
link |
facilitated for development in the longterm.
link |
But if you had to go and try to perform a task in the next five minutes and you're
link |
focusing on the negative, your confidence and your, your, your belief in the positive
link |
outcome of the future is likely to be damaged.
link |
Whereas you could have 25 things going wrong, but you go, man, I sure am happy to be alive.
link |
How fortunate I am.
link |
I can't, this is, I have problems to solve.
link |
Versus I had to list the problems and I start bitching about them.
link |
Both of them are technically accurate, but it's, I guess, different lenses.
link |
And I think that's a really neat thing to see, you know, someone, you know, exemplifying
link |
So maybe to look at the, the fighting world, there's a million questions I can ask here.
link |
Like one, you mentioned BJ Penn, you, uh, first of all, you're undefeated in the UFC
link |
and one of the fights you've had is against BJ Penn, which is, uh, kind of an incredible
link |
You, you won performance of the night.
link |
What did it feel like to, uh, to face BJ Penn and to beat him definitively as you did?
link |
Like, what's that whole experience like?
link |
I'll be honest, I didn't know if I was going to ever be able to fight again after beating
link |
Gray Maynard in 2016. Um, you know, I've had a couple of periods of those.
link |
I was about to join the army actually in, uh, when I was 30 before the, uh, for the
link |
UFC before Jen sent me over to ultimate fighter.
link |
I didn't want to go cause I was like, one, they're never going to pick me.
link |
Two, I'd be terrible for TV.
link |
Three, I'll probably say something.
link |
I'm going to get burned to death in the streets.
link |
You know, I'm like, this isn't a great idea.
link |
And then, uh, she said, we'll go out there, see what happens, do it anyway.
link |
And you'll be, you'll regret it if you didn't.
link |
And then I ended up doing ultimate fighter.
link |
And then, so I fought three times on the show and then I fought, um, for the, for the finale.
link |
So there's four times in like five or six months, which was great.
link |
And then it took me a year to get another opponent.
link |
Um, and that was Gray Maynard.
link |
And then Gray was obviously very tough guy, um, managed to get a good outcome there.
link |
Then it took two years to fight BJ Penn.
link |
And that was, you know, obviously I'm training all the time every single day and that never
link |
stops, but that was, I'll be honest, like pretty deeply frustrating.
link |
Cause you know, as a, as a human being, as an athlete, you know, I think as an athlete,
link |
Like you have an athletic peak or area and then, then you go on with the rest of your
link |
life, but it is a microcosm for the rest of your life.
link |
It's like, you're, you're seeing this, the sand tick away in the hourglass would drop
link |
away and you're going, man, this is, these are the years between 31, 32, 33.
link |
Like I'll be at my best at this time.
link |
My absolute best physically now, not technically I'm a lot better now than I was before.
link |
And I plan, but at a certain point you will, unless you're Bernard Hopkins, you will reach
link |
diminishing returns and I guess the long, the long way you can feel the clock ticking
link |
Why, why did it take two years for BJ?
link |
I, I, I, that's the question people ask a lot.
link |
It's like, why does nobody want to fight Ryan?
link |
I probably, they probably think they'll get infected by whatever this is, but I don't,
link |
I don't blame them.
link |
But I would mean you're a really tough opponent as bought as the bottom line.
link |
I'll say that I'm different.
link |
Maybe they perceive that the, the, the, the threat is greater than the reward.
link |
I'm hoping that now that we're ranked number 12, you know, in the UFC rankings that, that,
link |
And I know that if we're one more win and then we're in the top 10 that, you know, now,
link |
now we're, you're there.
link |
But what I've consistently found is that like randoms want to fight and I'm like, go away.
link |
I didn't come here for you.
link |
You know, cause if I wanted to just fight anybody, I could go down to a waffle house
link |
and yell until like DMX shows up and we can, we can fight.
link |
Cause he'll be at the waffle house too.
link |
I really want to hang out with the MX.
link |
But you know, it's like, you want to, when I had the opportunity, oh my God, that was
link |
I was, I would never, I would never fight DMX.
link |
We'd be on the same team.
link |
But anyway it's, I guess I accepted fights against, I asked, they got asked about Lamas.
link |
I got asked about Dennis Bermudez.
link |
You know, like long periods of time.
link |
And they, at that time, well, you know, in between 2016 and 2018 I was struggling to
link |
have, have opponents who would sign up.
link |
And so I haven't turned down fights.
link |
I've just said, Hey, you know, keep the, I don't care about fighting the randoms.
link |
And it's, you have a successful school.
link |
You're like, you're running your martial artists broadly speaking.
link |
So it doesn't make sense to take fights that aren't like that fit a certain kind of trajectory
link |
And that's when, when BJ Penn, they said, well, BJ is looking for an opponent.
link |
I was like, I'm, I'm your guy.
link |
And, and I think that, you know, BJ accepted that fight because I'm another jujitsu guy.
link |
I don't think he, he, he perceived that I was much of a threat on the feet.
link |
And, you know, I was able to, it was neat to get it to compete against someone, you
link |
know, who's one of my heroes, one of the people I looked up to in MMA for the longest time.
link |
Were you intimidated by that?
link |
No, no, I love competing.
link |
I don't really get nervous or scared before fights.
link |
I'm not afraid to get hurt.
link |
I'm not afraid to win.
link |
I'm not afraid to lose.
link |
It's, I, I'm just excited for the, I feel thankful for the opportunity to compete and
link |
the opportunity to, to play when it matters.
link |
You know, I, I just, that's the only time I'm interested in playing anymore is when
link |
it, when it matters, when the opposition is, I know that, you know, it's funny because
link |
people pick on, on a lot of some opponents, particularly after, after the fact, like if
link |
you, if you get a good outcome, well then, oh, of course, let's beat that guy.
link |
That guy wasn't that good.
link |
I'm like, well, I wasn't, that's after the fact.
link |
I get to say that.
link |
And also as the person in the ring, you know, BJ Penn has heard a lot of people in mixed
link |
martial arts cage and I could actually absolutely have been on that list.
link |
So it was neat to get to compete against someone that I really respect, someone that I looked
link |
up to for a long time, someone who has a great skillset.
link |
And also I went up in weight to fight him at his weight class.
link |
He didn't have to come down to mine, which is where he'd take it.
link |
It was lightweight.
link |
I'm generally a featherweight.
link |
I walk around at like 158 pounds.
link |
So what's the lightweight and featherweight?
link |
Lightweight is 155 with the day before Wayne and featherweight is 145 with the day before
link |
So I'm a little bit more properly sized for featherweight.
link |
But anyway, you know, I, so I didn't feel like obviously he was giving up a couple
link |
years of age, but I was giving up size and all this other stuff.
link |
And it was, you know, I was just excited to have the opportunity to step in against someone
link |
like BJ and you know, we managed to get out of there with a, with a good outcome without
link |
getting too banged up.
link |
But just, it was cool cause we tied up on the fence and just even the second, you know,
link |
is when you're rolling with somebody and you touch and you can feel what they're doing
link |
and you go, man, this guy's really good.
link |
You can feel the calm, you can feel the small minor adjustments that they're making, the
link |
subtle things that they're doing.
link |
And that was one of those things that was really neat and gratifying because you know,
link |
Sometimes people that you've heard of are a little bit less technically proficient than
link |
And other times you'll meet some guy that you're training like, who the hell is this
link |
How have I not heard of this person?
link |
And BJ was exactly, as a jiu jitsu guy, what I would have thought.
link |
And another thing, that's another thing that bugged me about how people reacted after the
link |
fight is, you know, basically going, oh, BJ screwed up this, screwed up that.
link |
And I'm like, all right, yeah.
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That's so interesting.
link |
That was, you know, one of the, and to me, I mean, as a fan of both, that was a beautiful
link |
moment as a, as a kind of passing of a torch in a sense of exceptional performance.
link |
Like another one that stands out to me, maybe you can comment, is I don't understand, well,
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maybe I do, why Conor McGregor gets as much hate as he does.
link |
He probably revels in it.
link |
But I think he doesn't get enough credit for Jose Aldo for the, for like, for basically,
link |
you know, knocking him out in the first few seconds of a fight.
link |
I mean, Jose is like one of the greatest fighters ever.
link |
Maybe some people can even put him in the top 10.
link |
And the, like, I don't understand why it's, doesn't get as much, like Conor McGregor
link |
doesn't get as much credit as I think he deserves for that and for Eddie Alvarez and all the
link |
fights, for some reason, whenever Conor McGregor beats somebody, well, they were not that good
link |
Like, it means like they were, they were, something was off.
link |
That's convenient, isn't it?
link |
It's quite strange to me.
link |
But I mean, what are your thoughts on the, on Conor McGregor?
link |
Maybe one way to ask that, I'm Russian, so I'm obviously also a Khabib fan, but I'm also
link |
a Conor fan, it seems like there's not many of us who are, like, fans of both.
link |
What are your thoughts?
link |
You and Artem Lobov.
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The two of us, which also is a good fight.
link |
Yeah, really, really tough dude.
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He's like five languages, really interesting kid.
link |
Oh, so, oh wow, I didn't know that side of it.
link |
There's a brain there.
link |
Well, on the Khabib versus Conor, what do you make of their first fight?
link |
What do you, do you agree with me that they should fight again?
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Because I think it would be awesome if they fought again in Moscow.
link |
And do you agree with me, I'm just going to put, say things that piss people off,
link |
but I believe is that Conor actually has a chance to beat Khabib.
link |
One, that Conor absolutely has a chance to beat Khabib.
link |
Conor has a chance to beat anyone that he steps into that ring with, and not just like
link |
a mathematical chance.
link |
You're like, oh, one of the billion, but like, you know, like he absolutely, it's funny
link |
because I won't pretend to know Conor really well, but I first met Conor in 2010 when I
link |
was teaching a seminar in, at Strait Blast Gym Ireland in Dublin.
link |
And that's actually where I first met all of the coaches that ended up being on Conor's
link |
You know, John Kavanaugh, Owen Roddy, Gunnar Nelson, you know, so for, I actually, I enjoyed
link |
being on Ultimate Fighter and being on Uriah Faber's team and getting to train with all
link |
But at the same time, the people that I was actually, I knew better were actually the
link |
European side, all of Conor's coaches.
link |
And that was a neat thing because I got to, I met Conor, I didn't know who Conor, like
link |
Conor wasn't Conor at that point.
link |
Yeah, that was before his UFC debut.
link |
Oh yeah, well, well before, yeah.
link |
I think, I think he got in like 2014, maybe something like that.
link |
And anyway, but he was doing well in Cage Warriors, winning the titles there.
link |
I think prior to that, you know, I remember going, seeing him on the show and also then
link |
getting to see him train because I competed, I was initially slated to fight David Tamer
link |
for the Ultimate Fighter finale before getting put in to fight Artem for the title for the
link |
So I went over to Ireland to train for a couple of days and basically it was neat to watch
link |
him, watch him work.
link |
I mean, man is focused and trains a lot and very, very smart and very, very hardworking.
link |
And I think a lot of times people get stuck in the, in this, you know, and they almost
link |
want to believe that this was lucky or this, this person, you know, like they're not working
link |
They're just out there.
link |
They got there with their mouth and that's, that's just not the case.
link |
And you know, I don't know what it's like, you know, obviously Connors very well off
link |
right now and I don't know how hard, how seriously he's training, what he's doing.
link |
I can't speak to any of that, but there's no question that he has skills to be dangerous.
link |
And one of the funny things, obviously the Khabib fight when Khabib was a great fighter
link |
and also has the chance to beat anyone in that ring at any given time.
link |
But there's, there was a Conner, you know, it's a one that he can, he can put anybody
link |
And as you mentioned, I think that he doesn't get the credit for the Eddie Alvarez fight.
link |
He doesn't get the credit for the Jose Aldo fight.
link |
Cause it was almost so much of a letdown.
link |
I remember that happened the same weekend that I did the ultimate fighter finale.
link |
And you're like, all right, wait, what?
link |
It almost doesn't feel like a fight happening, but we mentioned Miyamoto Musashi.
link |
I mean, Musashi was famous for the way he poked and prodded that people with what he
link |
was doing, whether overtly or not, it's like, Oh, we're supposed to fight to the death.
link |
And, uh, you know, at 3 PM tomorrow, great.
link |
4 PM rolls around, I'm just not there.
link |
I mean, you remember all the, all the antics and nonsense that Conner was pulling prior
link |
to that, like speaking personally, that's not, it's not something I would feel comfortable
link |
doing, but it's like, everyone's different.
link |
And the effect that it had on, on Jose was, I mean, beyond evident.
link |
When was the last time Jose started the, started the fight with leaping left hand,
link |
leaping right hand, you're like, wait, what?
link |
And then he was obviously, you know, living rent free and in Jose's head at that point.
link |
And that was a combination of psychological, you know, ability and, and, and wherewithal
link |
and then physical.
link |
And it reminded me of the way Muhammad Ali would, would bother people and whatnot.
link |
And, uh, the fact that he's a polarizing figure, um, I think makes some people not give him
link |
And then at the same time, sometimes certain fans may be go overboard, but, uh, they remember
link |
the knee that Ben Askren got knocked out with by Masoudal.
link |
I mean, that was an amazing, unbelievable thing, but three inches to the right, three
link |
inches to the left, I guess, whichever side his head wasn't, could have been squarer.
link |
But, uh, and that fight starts with Ben Askren on top of you in the first five seconds.
link |
Well, Connor ran and threw a knee just like that at Khabib and Khabib got right around
link |
That could have easily gone the other way.
link |
Can you imagine what would have happened if after the, after coming back from boxing,
link |
um, after coming back from, from the Mayweather fight, Connor, in the first 10 seconds, it's
link |
Khabib in the first 10 seconds, it's over and you're like, he would, it would have been
link |
intolerable, but basically, like, you know, but see, here's the thing.
link |
Let me actually push back slightly.
link |
Uh, I mean, to the fans, correct me if I'm wrong, but Connor seems to cause I've competed
link |
a lot and like there's a tension.
link |
There's a negativity sometimes depending on the opponent and there's a respect afterwards
link |
that happens, like when you understand that there's a deep like respect and almost like
link |
love for each other.
link |
Like, I always seen that in Connor, like all the trash talk afterwards.
link |
There's a, it's, it's a subtle thing.
link |
You can't always see it, but there's a respect like.
link |
And like that, I almost on the Khabib side, I almost feel like Khabib really took it personally.
link |
He did, he didn't, he lost the respect for Connor.
link |
I thought, I thought the whole time Connor had the respect.
link |
So I, I, what I wanted to say is like, if Connor won that fight, like rock Khabib, I
link |
could see like, I wouldn't see trash talking.
link |
I could see like trash talking stop right there.
link |
I think so too, but at the same time, I'm sure you recall like Connor, Connor crossing
link |
some pretty personal territory, you know, both religiously and, and also familiarly
link |
with, uh, with Khabib.
link |
And it's, you know, I mean, I think it's the sort of thing that, I don't know, it's, it's
link |
an interesting, that's one of the reasons.
link |
Like you have to know the diff so obviously I know the, the, the Khabib, uh, the Dagestani
link |
people, they don't play around like that.
link |
They don't play around like that.
link |
You know, I mean, they take offense to basically, I mean, you, you don't do that.
link |
So, uh, so like Connor didn't, maybe he did it on purpose or maybe he wasn't even just
link |
aware of, of, uh, it was cultural differences of the box he opened.
link |
Like you, you can talk to Floyd Mayweather, you can, you can go anywhere with him.
link |
You can, you can say the most offensive things, but with, uh, with Khabib, it's, it's, yeah,
link |
hard lines, but you, uh, I mean, a lot of people ask, I know you're a featherweight,
link |
but if you were to, uh, face, it feels like Khabib was one of the hardest puzzles to solve
link |
in, in all of mixed martial arts.
link |
If you were to face Khabib, do you think, how would you go about solving that puzzle?
link |
Like almost the question is almost from a Jiu Jitsu perspective too.
link |
What do you do with a guy that's exceptionally good at controlling position, especially on
link |
top, very good at wrestling and taking down and controlling position.
link |
Like let's say, so forget maybe striking on the ground.
link |
How do you solve that guy?
link |
Like what do you do with your guard if you get taken down or do you create an entire
link |
system of not getting taken down or escaping is like, what, what ideas do you have for
link |
Well, I guess I would say in my mind, fighting is a game of trading energy.
link |
Um, kind of, uh, you know, there's two, there's two things, there's damage and there's energy.
link |
So like when I say energy and being like, uh, tired, not tired, how much, how much gas
link |
Um, and then damage counts obviously as well.
link |
Um, you could be feeling, I could be feeling great and then you get to kick me in the head
link |
hard, really hard three times.
link |
It doesn't matter that I could get up and run a mile.
link |
So anyway, um, you know, I, I think what Khabib does is so well is he makes the fight look
link |
like it could be an amalgamated fight.
link |
Um, he does a great job of avoiding damage on the feet for the most part and really sucking
link |
the life out of people with how suffocating and oppressive is his control is.
link |
Um, his chain wrestling is as good as anyone we've ever seen in the UFC.
link |
Um, but, uh, that poses a really serious threat for people that need to maintain a certain
link |
amount of space and try to hurt them on the feed because unless they're able to inflict
link |
an adequate amount of damage, they're going to each time, let's say for instance, let's
link |
say him taking them down as a foregone conclusion at some point.
link |
Um, if every single time Khabib takes you down, you get right back up.
link |
It's not that big a deal, um, because it's actually more, we've all experienced this.
link |
Let's say you and I are rolling, you tap me 15 times in one round.
link |
My ass so badly that, that it's like, you're the only one working, but, um,
link |
So if you're comfortable with the up and down of it, like being taken down.
link |
If you're, if you don't, if you don't get hurt badly or tired on the bottom, you have
link |
a chance, but that doesn't involve just cracking him on the feet before he gets ahold of you.
link |
That's a lot to ask.
link |
That's a lot to ask.
link |
That's difficult to do.
link |
It seemed actually like Connor, it seemed like it when he was being kind of taken down
link |
or the, the take down attempts against Khabib, he seemed to be somewhat relaxed the whole
link |
I thought he was doing well, actually.
link |
I think that particularly for the first round, I thought he did a very good job.
link |
It's just one of those things that I think like, uh, Khabib being the fights taking place
link |
in Khabib's world in large part.
link |
And I mean, set aside that one giant, uh, was it right hand that, that Khabib hit Connor
link |
with it, by the way, Connor reacted like an absolute champion.
link |
He got crushed by that overhand and then drop and his eyes went right back on Khabib.
link |
It was immediate positive, great response.
link |
So even though that was, I think that was a bit of a surprising thing, Connor reacted
link |
really, really well.
link |
But if you're going to be on bottom with Khabib for four rounds, that's going to be tough.
link |
And also Connor's a way better grappler than people like to give him credit for, but he's
link |
not the type of grappler that can do that can, that can, that's too tall of an order,
link |
but there are grapplers that could do that or at least would have a much, much better
link |
shot at, uh, being able to weather that type of a storm.
link |
Do you see yourself being able to be relaxed through that kind of storm?
link |
Well, I guess I can remember being, being, being, being savagely beaten is very relaxing.
link |
The time that the timing of that answer was like, okay, that's a dumb question.
link |
No, that's ultimately the goal of Jiu Jitsu is to, um, be relaxed to the fire.
link |
And remember like every UFC fighter, I win all hypothetical matchups.
link |
Yeah, that's true.
link |
Uh, since, uh, I'm one to ask ridiculous questions and we've been talking about sci fi and all
link |
that kind of stuff.
link |
Let me ask the kind of big question that everybody disagrees about, certainly with me is, uh,
link |
who are the top five greatest MMA fighters of all time and, um, um, why is Fedor number
link |
Well, first off, Fedor is number one.
link |
Right there with you.
link |
Talk about people that just get completely underappreciated.
link |
He's never been in the, uh, like he's never succeeded in the UFC.
link |
It's not his fault.
link |
It came along after him at the time that, at the time that Fedor was at his height,
link |
the UFC was not where it was at for heavyweight fighting.
link |
I mean, not that there weren't good heavyweights there, but Fedor, Fedor was unbelievable.
link |
You know what I mean?
link |
You remember, I mean, Minotaur Noguera, I was a massive fan of him.
link |
I still remember watching, uh, what is it pride 2004 when, when Noguera fought Cro Cop
link |
and got blasted with that left kick and dropped with like seconds left in the first round.
link |
Pride was great cause he had a 10 minute first round and that five minute second, which again
link |
materially alters, alters the fight big time.
link |
And you know, just the texture of the fight is just totally, it's borderline a different
link |
sport, you know, then, then getting a five, a pause and a five.
link |
But anyway, uh, similar sports, like one of those swimming things where they have nine
link |
gold medals for different types of swimming, right?
link |
But still swimming.
link |
They would disagree.
link |
I don't mean, I'm not trying to.
link |
They specialize in that.
link |
It's so, it's totally true.
link |
10, 10 minutes is different than five minutes.
link |
Don't take, don't, don't, don't drown me swimmers.
link |
I don't swim very well.
link |
It's easy for me to, easy for me to downplay it, but anyway, um, uh, yeah.
link |
Better than, uh, John Jones, like the modern era.
link |
Well, I mean, I guess it's, it's tough to compete, to compare across eras.
link |
It would be like going and saying like, Oh man, how, how would such and such great grappler
link |
from today fare against someone from 1995?
link |
I'm like, well, probably pretty well for them, depending upon who they are, what's going
link |
There's some people that would, their skill sets might transition across eras, but a lot
link |
of times not, but that's not fair.
link |
We get the, they'll be like comparing Spartans to modern day, you know, like army guys.
link |
You're like, well, who's going to win?
link |
I'm like, well, did modern day army guys get modern day weapons?
link |
Well, yeah, but who's the toughest ruggedest group of people at the very least?
link |
So I guess it's, it's tough to say, but at least in my mind, the people that I think
link |
about for great fighters, their, their, their quality of opposition, um, their level of
link |
like lasting and like success, their level of lasting innovation.
link |
Like the courage that they have to demonstrate, because again, it's like being a big fish
link |
in a small pond takes no courage.
link |
Doesn't mean that there's nothing there, but it just requires something a little bit different.
link |
So Kazushi Sakuraba is one of my guys too.
link |
Um, BJ Penn also, I mean, BJ Penn fought Lyoto Machida.
link |
You know, it's, that was a time, it was a different sport.
link |
It was a different time in the sport where, you know, they were, some guys were, were
link |
bouncing around doing different things, but let's, so I guess the Gracie family, it's,
link |
I mean, they never had an in like, obviously Hoist was there, um, but they never, and that
link |
was a definitely a different sport.
link |
Weight classes being open, things like that.
link |
Yeah, but you have to say that Hoist is up there.
link |
One of the greatest ever.
link |
And again, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you, um, if it weren't for him.
link |
So the Gracie family as a whole, but I mean, who's the better, I mean, I think Hoist would
link |
tell you himself probably that, that Hickson would have handled business back then, but
link |
they didn't put him in.
link |
So again, he's the greatest fighter, the greatest fighter, the greatest fighter that we saw
link |
So Hoist up there for sure.
link |
What about, so this is like, nobody seems to agree with me on this, but like this connects
link |
to soccer again and Messi.
link |
It seems that people value like how long you've been a champion, how many like defenses of
link |
the championship that you've had successfully.
link |
To me, I highly value singular moments of genius.
link |
So like, like, I, I don't, like, if you look at Conor McGregor, he hasn't, I guess, held,
link |
I've been a champion very long, very much.
link |
Well, he didn't defend either title, right?
link |
He didn't defend any other, uh, either of the titles, but like, if you talk, and same
link |
with Messi, if you look at, uh, Lionel Messi, there's just moments of brilliance unlike
link |
any other in history for both Conor and Messi.
link |
And people don't seem to give credits like, well, how many world cups have you won?
link |
But to me, like, why is it about this arbitrary world cup thing or championship thing?
link |
I think it's easier for people to wrap their head around, right?
link |
It's like the NFL combine.
link |
When was, I mean, yeah, numbers.
link |
It's something that, well, again, if I go and if I pick Tom Brady in the first round,
link |
you know, and it works out, they call me a genius.
link |
If I had to pick Tom Brady in the first round after his combine and it doesn't work out,
link |
I get fired and I'm never hired again, I have to work, work somewhere else.
link |
But it's like, I'm insulating myself from criticism.
link |
I think almost if I go by the numbers, well, he had more bench presses.
link |
It's like, how, how many times have the guys that are like the super studs in the, uh,
link |
in the NFL combine ever been on the greatest players in the NFL history, in NFL history,
link |
like zero or close to zero.
link |
And even if, even if there's some, it's certainly not a one to one correlation.
link |
So it's so funny though.
link |
I think it's just like, how many, how long, how many days did he hold the title?
link |
Oh, your title reign was X times longer.
link |
That means nothing.
link |
So if we wanted to find greatest fighter ever, like you said, I think individual moments
link |
of like, like that was transcended, that was different.
link |
That was something else because people can win or lose for any number of different reasons.
link |
And that it's an interesting thing.
link |
Again, I don't blame Argentina, not winning the world cup on messy, you know, that's not
link |
You know, how many times has, you know, I mean, I use the, I remember when a Trent
link |
Ilfer was the quarterback for the, uh, the Baltimore Ravens and they had such a strong
link |
I'm not trying to pick on Trent Ilfer, but it's like they, they had such a strong defense
link |
that they were to make it.
link |
That was the Ray Lewis, you know, Chris McAllister era, you know, and they, they won, they won
link |
I don't think anyone is going to say that, you know, Trent Dilfer is a better quarterback
link |
than, you know, or put him in the same category as Dan Marino, but he got the W he's got the,
link |
he's got the super ring.
link |
How many times, let's use March Madness or super, I love it.
link |
Like that, that guy always makes the finals, but he just never gets it done.
link |
So let me get this straight, getting to the finals nine times doesn't count because you
link |
didn't win the end game.
link |
I'm not saying it wouldn't be better, but that guy won the game once he got over the
link |
Well, how many other times was he in the finals?
link |
It's interesting what we, yeah.
link |
We were obsessed with these numbers, like, um, well, cause we can't assess their method,
link |
Well, I think most of the time, most of us can't assess the method of anything.
link |
I'm it's like, Oh, look at that guy do X Y swimming.
link |
I'm like, how do I know Michael Phelps is great.
link |
I can't look at his technique and say anything other than, well, that's way better than anything
link |
I know how to do, but I can't say the difference between him and the next guy.
link |
So I guess that's, I wonder if it's like, I need a concrete identifier and a lot of
link |
times people don't like saying, I don't know.
link |
And most people won't put like a Ronda Rousey in the top, even 20 or 50 of, but like she
link |
changed more than, more than almost anybody else.
link |
She changed the martial arts history.
link |
I don't know if that even, I don't think I'm exaggerating that she, she made it okay for
link |
women to be fighters and that, and that changed the way we see like, she's one of the great
link |
feminists of our time in a weird kind of way that like, I don't know.
link |
Maybe I'm just a Ronda Rousey fan, but the, yeah, the, but she's not in the conversation
link |
because then you start converting into numbers.
link |
Well, how many did she win?
link |
Is she among the greatest fighters or did she do the greatest things?
link |
You know what I mean?
link |
I don't, I think it's something, I mean, obviously Ronda is a great Sudoku who was competing
link |
in MMA at a time when a lot of the girls like, where did you get your skills in the Olympics
link |
or where'd you get yours?
link |
I mean, they're going to, the Olympic girls going to beat you up.
link |
But I guess that, that doesn't diminish her, just that accomplishment is what it is.
link |
I don't have to, I don't, Fedor is not diminished by the fact that he would like, if he were
link |
to fight Stephen Mayochis right now, it probably wouldn't go great or that John Jones exists.
link |
I don't now have to like knock Fedor's accomplishments down or say, oh, because BJ Penn or so and
link |
so let's say has a mixed record at this point that somehow invalidates the things that they've
link |
I guess it kind of brings us back to a lot of the other people we've talked about, the
link |
fact that the brilliant people throughout history that we love or some of the monsters
link |
throughout history that we rightly revile in a lot of cases were complicated people
link |
and their legacy is more than just one thing.
link |
And someone doing something amazing doesn't invalid, doesn't mean they didn't do anything
link |
And someone doing terrible things doesn't, doesn't mean that, doesn't invalidate the,
link |
the positives that they did.
link |
But I guess we fighting the urge to put people in one category and same with ourselves.
link |
I think that's why people get depressed.
link |
Oh, I'm good right now.
link |
Oh, I'm bad right now.
link |
Versus hey, we're all at work in progress and we're trying to do X number of things
link |
and legacy is a tough thing to figure out anyway.
link |
And it's all speculative.
link |
Last time or no on Reddit, you said that last time too, that you don't experience much fear
link |
I'd like to ask you a couple of Mike Tyson things, if it's okay.
link |
It's just interesting to me.
link |
Maybe I'm just weird.
link |
So there's a, I don't know if you've seen this clip of Tyson talking about how he feels
link |
leading up to a fight that he's kind of overtaken with fear, but as he gets closer and closer
link |
and closer to the ring, his confidence grows.
link |
Have you seen the clip?
link |
I haven't seen it in a while.
link |
Here, let me play it for you.
link |
I think George St. Pierre said something similar to me one time.
link |
While I'm in the dressing room, five minutes before I come out, my gloves are laced up.
link |
I'm breaking my gloves down.
link |
I'm pushing the lever on the back of my leg, breaking the middle of the glove so my knuckle
link |
pierced through the lever.
link |
I feel my knuckle piercing against the tight leather gloves on the Everlast box.
link |
When I come out, I have supreme confidence, but I'm scared to death.
link |
I'm totally afraid.
link |
I'm afraid of everything.
link |
I'm afraid of losing.
link |
I'm afraid of being humiliated, but I'm just totally confident.
link |
The closer I get to the ring, the more confidence I get.
link |
The closer, the more confidence I get.
link |
The closer, the more confidence I get.
link |
All during my training, I've been afraid of this man.
link |
I thought this man might be capable of beating me.
link |
I've dreamed of him beating me, but I always stayed afraid of him.
link |
But the closer I get to the ring, I'm more confident.
link |
Once I'm in the ring, I'm a god.
link |
No one can beat me.
link |
I mean, first of all, he's cognizant of both his demons and whatever the hell ideas he
link |
has about violence.
link |
It's so interesting.
link |
Is there something about the tension that he's describing about being confident and
link |
scared that resonates with you?
link |
Or do you hold to this idea that you've kind of spoken about before that you're really
link |
No, I can appreciate what he's saying.
link |
I think that I can speak to feeling concerned about, let's say, for instance, if you feel
link |
a certain way, I think people are a lot more like computers than we like to admit.
link |
And just because a lot of times I can't parse what's going on and why doesn't mean that
link |
it doesn't make sense.
link |
And I think that, at least in the times, if I'm concerned about a situation or about a
link |
person or about something happening prior to the fight, I'm like, there's a reason.
link |
There was a reason.
link |
I don't have to push that down and bury it.
link |
What have I not thought about?
link |
What have I not done?
link |
What am I missing?
link |
Why am I feeling this way?
link |
As you mentioned, for yourself prior, you'd be like, why am I feeling like this?
link |
I don't do this very well in certain aspects of my life now that I mention it or now that
link |
But when it comes to competing, I think I do an all right job and I'm trying to learn
link |
And it's going like, well, why do I, if I feel this way, there's a reason.
link |
Am I thinking about this the wrong way?
link |
Have I not adequately prepared for something?
link |
I have to address it and then maybe I'll be up for four hours that night, like extra hours
link |
thinking what have I not addressed, watching sparring, watching this, watching that.
link |
And then when I am thinking about things more accurately or when I've addressed what that
link |
concern was, I feel any of that concern kind of dissipate.
link |
And I guess if I honestly thought that, I guess when it comes to, I know I'm going to
link |
die at a certain point, obviously, I'm going to get hurt, pain happens.
link |
But the pain of loss would be nothing compared to the, or the pain of injury would be nothing
link |
compared to the pain of running away.
link |
And so I guess if I think about where's my value, it's like I feel like I'm a winner
link |
and every single time I step into that ring and fight with everything that I have, I can't
link |
promise that I'll win my next fight.
link |
I know that I have the skills and the tools to beat anyone in grappling or in mixed martial
link |
arts at this point.
link |
It's just, I know that for certain, I've trained with enough people, I've competed with enough
link |
people, I know where I stand.
link |
But I also know that I'm not perfect and also the better fighter, even if I perceived that
link |
I was that thing, doesn't win on the night.
link |
The man who fights better wins on the night.
link |
And if I give credence in my mind to only the person that's won has value versus going,
link |
what's your process?
link |
What's your path through this?
link |
How are you going about this?
link |
How are you thinking about this?
link |
How are you behaving?
link |
Then if I can focus on the process, then I will respect my opponent and I will respect
link |
myself and I'll respect anyone that behaves with a certain level of consistency to that.
link |
And they could win, there's plenty of winners in history that are shitbags and there's plenty
link |
of losers that are not.
link |
But winning doesn't make you a bad or good person and losing doesn't make you good by
link |
default either or bad by default.
link |
And I think that that can be the truth socially, that can be the truth athletically and academically.
link |
Is there a primal fear though, like a primal fear of getting hurt?
link |
The running away and not facing the threat long term is the bigger pain than any pain
link |
you can experience in the fight.
link |
That's pretty powerful.
link |
But what about the violence of, I mean, you don't have that on your face, but like, I
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don't know if you've also seen Tyson talk about, he was on Rogan recently and he was
link |
talking about, he was trying to psychoanalyze himself about why he enjoys violence so much.
link |
I mean, he called it orgasmic.
link |
I don't know if, have you seen that clip?
link |
We're playing it because I can, I need to, because Trump also retweeted it, which is
link |
I don't know how to contextualize that our president retweeted the clip of Tyson saying...
link |
Maybe he's just doing like, they're not, it's like, I'm going to throw him a curve ball.
link |
No one's going to have any idea what that is.
link |
But yeah, he did no explanation, just, here you go.
link |
Well, I think that's kind of like what you were describing.
link |
It's like, if I give you an answer, it has to be a good one.
link |
Better to just let your imagination run.
link |
He's like the Kubrick of our time.
link |
Now what's really interesting that sometimes, period, it's not real, but sometimes I struggle
link |
with the fact of why there's a possibility I can really hurt somebody.
link |
Like you don't want to hurt them.
link |
What do you mean when you struggle with the possibility that you could hurt them?
link |
That is sometimes, it's orgasmic sometimes.
link |
Like some fights, like particular, like Tyrell Biggs or someone that you had problems with,
link |
someone that you, you had animosity towards.
link |
So when you finally get your hands on them.
link |
Hey, what does it mean when fighting gets you, gets you erect?
link |
What does that mean?
link |
It's a good question.
link |
Means you're getting excited.
link |
So that, that's going through your mind right now.
link |
Well, that's how I get when I was a kid and I, you know, sometimes I get the twinkle.
link |
Well, that's what I'm saying.
link |
When you reached a state as a human being, as a champion, as a ferocious fighter, you
link |
reached a state of, of ability and of accomplishment that very few humans will ever, ever touch
link |
That's why I'm asking you when you're running, when you're hitting the bag, when that heart's
link |
beating again and that you know who you are, you're Mike motherfucking Tyson.
link |
So when you're doing all this shit again, you're still Mike Tyson.
link |
Those thoughts have got to be burning inside you again.
link |
It's got to be pretty wild.
link |
It's wild, but I believe it's rightfully so to be that way.
link |
And I used to know how to, I don't say I'm master, but I used to know how to deal with
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I don't let it overwhelm me.
link |
I mean, he goes on to try to, they don't ever, like Joe doesn't bite.
link |
The interesting thing about that conversation is Mike was trying to figure himself out.
link |
Like he's trying on the spot, like, why do I feel this way?
link |
To me it was like, to me it's so real and honest to feel like pleasure from hurting
link |
Like that you rarely hear that.
link |
In this society, it's like, you rarely like talk about like you feel pleasure from winning.
link |
You feel pleasure from like the relief of overcoming like all the stress you had to
link |
Pleasure from just like the specifics of the fight, the techniques you use, the maybe
link |
overcoming being down a couple of rounds, but like how often do you hear somebody say,
link |
I just enjoyed, he's not even saying because I hate the opponent.
link |
He's saying like, I enjoyed purely the violence of it.
link |
I mean, I don't know, it's honest.
link |
It made me ask, like, I wonder how many of us are cognizant of that.
link |
Let's say Mike is uncommonly seemingly honest.
link |
I think athletes make a full time job out of lying, you know, I think people make a
link |
To themselves perhaps too.
link |
I mean, in some, you tell yourself or you tell others what you feel you need to, or
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maybe whether you've, whether you even know what you feel you need to, but why should
link |
he not, I mean, again, did he, did he run up and just hit somebody that's didn't sign
link |
No, they, they signed up to be there.
link |
Well, that's the interesting thing about Dyson is there's that weird, uh, like nonstandard
link |
I mean, like your fighting style is not standard.
link |
He's nonstandard to another degree of like, uh, who else has that in Jiu Jitsu, uh, uh,
link |
Polaris, uh, uh, has this kind of weirdness, like what's, what's in there?
link |
Like there's a fear that I think, uh, most opponents would have because it's like, it's
link |
no longer about like, it takes you out of the realm of its game.
link |
It takes us back to the thing we were talking about, like before is it strips away that
link |
like several layers of Ryan Hall, the, the podcast, uh, guest, Ryan Hall, the Jiu Jitsu
link |
instructor, Ryan Hall, Jiu Jitsu competitor, it keeps going down to a point where like
link |
Ryan Hall, the murderer of all things that get in his way that lies underneath all of
link |
Seemingly like if we're like in this society, we put all that aside, but it makes you wonder
link |
like now as society is being tested in many ways, it makes you wonder like what's underneath
link |
Well, do we want, do we want the answer to that?
link |
Cause I guess it's, what is it?
link |
Uh, you seem Paul Fiction, you know, the best character in the movie and in the best scene
link |
in the movie is like, if my questions here, if you're, what do you call it?
link |
If my answer is scary, you should cease asking scary questions, you know?
link |
And I guess, uh, you wonder, I mean, all of us, that's something that I think it's funny
link |
we go, that's not okay, I mean, versus maybe not appropriate for situation X, Y, or Z.
link |
But uh, what should make any of us think, I mean, humanity is a different place now.
link |
And I mean, I'm not saying anything crazy out there, but humanity is a different place
link |
now than we were 5,000 years ago where all of us are descended from people who have killed
link |
things with their teeth and fingernails in order to be where we are.
link |
And whether it was in, whether it was an animal or it was in conflict with another person,
link |
I mean, think about the, the chances of dying by violence now are so, so slim, at least
link |
in most countries in most plays, like shockingly small, thankfully.
link |
But there was a period of time, like the most period of time where dying by violence was
link |
mostly how it went down.
link |
And I guess what would be facilitative, what would allow you to win back to Ender's game?
link |
You know, what allows you, if you can't do that, you are all, you are forever subject
link |
to people who can, and that's, that's a real thing.
link |
And you know, we're fortunate to find ourselves in a situation where we don't, where other
link |
But that is a funny thing periodically where people, you'll see people kind of drawn at
link |
each other, like in videos or out in the world that clearly neither of them expect this to
link |
Like, I'm just going to yell at you.
link |
You're going to yell at me.
link |
And it's like this weird LARPing thing where we're both going to go on our own separate
link |
All it takes is one person to be like, well, I wasn't kidding.
link |
And it's like, well, you'll go to jail.
link |
And it's like, oh, I know you're going to go to the morgue.
link |
And it's, that's, but that can happen like that.
link |
I mean, obviously, anyway, you could jump across the table, stab me in the eye.
link |
I mean, I appreciate, I'd hope if you don't, and there will be consequences if you do,
link |
but not from, not from me, from, from the rest of society will potentially get you at
link |
a certain point, but you can decide to not play by the rules anytime you want.
link |
It's fascinating that, yeah, that's, we've created rules based on which we all behave,
link |
but underneath there, you know, there, there's things that doesn't, there's motivations and
link |
forces that don't play by the rules and still there nature is metal is under the surface.
link |
And again, I pull out my phone and I'm basically saying like, Hey, I'm going to, you're going
link |
But really I'm further antagonizing you rightly or wrongly.
link |
You know what I mean?
link |
Like, and that, that's an interesting thing.
link |
And I feel like just people need to remember any of us need to remember just for any reason,
link |
just that's, that's one step away at all, at all times you ever, I've had people say
link |
to me before, like, Oh, I don't feel safe.
link |
I'm like, you're not safe.
link |
I kill you before you get out of this room.
link |
Nothing you do to stop that.
link |
I mean, but don't worry.
link |
You can do the same to me, which means I'm like, Oh, Oh, thank goodness.
link |
Can you imagine like how many guns are there are in this country?
link |
Like I mean, everywhere, I mean, seriously everywhere, but that's a heartening thought.
link |
Not the other way.
link |
Cause people usually freak out and go, Oh my God, gun violence, gun violence, gun violence
link |
is like really not a serious issue in the United States compared to what it could be.
link |
Because it means that, I mean, with the amount of guns and the amount of bullets that are
link |
out there that are in circulation, can you imagine if like one in every thousand was
link |
used in anger each day?
link |
I mean, this would be a terrifying place to live.
link |
You couldn't go anywhere.
link |
So, I mean, although you could say, Hey, this is more than we'd like or X, Y, Z, it actually
link |
means that people are much more reasonable and sane than we're saying then, or then I,
link |
then sometimes I might, my might argue.
link |
So I guess what I mean is like, Oh man, I walked a seven 11 and I didn't get stabbed.
link |
I'm like, Oh, well that's good because not because I protected myself with my karate.
link |
It's basically no one decided to run over and stab me because I wasn't protecting myself.
link |
It's I, they, they stopped.
link |
So I guess we're all fortunate to live in a society that, that like you said, nature
link |
being metal doesn't become that big of an issue all the time.
link |
But it is funny when you get people in the ring and you go, Hey, let's peel back from
link |
Mr. Tyson, many layers of that and say, Hey, now it's okay.
link |
And it's cool that, I mean, that's what society is doing.
link |
So I've lived in Harvard square for awhile and we add extra layers of what safe means.
link |
Like now there's a disc discourse about safe spaces, about like ideas being violence or,
link |
or like, uh, you know, like, yeah, but ideas are minor slights against your personality
link |
And that's all like extra layers around the nature is metal thing that, uh, it's cool.
link |
That's what progress is.
link |
But we can't forget that like underneath it is still, it's still the, the thing that will
link |
murder at the, at the drop of, uh, in any, at any moment.
link |
If uh, if aroused one, one thing that I find funny though, or ironic maybe about the, uh,
link |
the, you know, words of violence, you know, offenses, violence thing is that of course
link |
that if that, the belief in that then justifies my violence, like my, and whether it may be
link |
in my, maybe not physical violence, but my response to my, my aggressive response to
link |
And I guess like, which it can be regrets of begets a further aggressive response and
link |
like a, you know, kind of a tit for tat sort of situation or, or it goes to like, well,
link |
there's 10 of me and there's one of you, so we'll get you and you can't do anything about
link |
But that's not morality.
link |
That's, that's just saying that's might makes right.
link |
So I guess again, you can understand why people do it and there are certain, there is a progress
link |
But again, I guess without proper examination, I'm effectively with my 10 friends, you know,
link |
and, and the force of the law, Mike Tyson and people, but not admitting to myself what
link |
And at least Mike Tyson again is honest.
link |
Are you, uh, afraid of death?
link |
I mean, it's easy for me to say no, as I sit here, probably not about to die, but.
link |
Is this like the UFC question, can you defeat any opponent?
link |
The answer is of course, yes.
link |
And uh, I don't have, they're not around, they're not here, are they?
link |
But, uh, I mean, are you, uh, do you ponder your own mortality?
link |
Maybe another context to that is you mentioned two deaths for martial artists.
link |
I think that's actually why, honestly, even though at a relatively young age, I think
link |
mortality is something that I'm aware of more, maybe more than the average person.
link |
I think probably most athletes can speak to this and anyone that's had trouble, I've managed
link |
to just slide out of a couple of near death experiences personally, you know, mostly river
link |
related, um, because I'm an idiot, but, um, I regret nothing, but, uh, yeah, but, uh,
link |
thank God we're here.
link |
But, um, yeah, it is an interest seeing, seeing the end and seeing going, well, what's going
link |
I guess I think it comes back to kind of what we're discussing about belief structure and
link |
I think a lot of times, if I recognize that no matter what I do, it's all going to end
link |
one day and then you go, well, why were we here?
link |
Am I going to make it to 40?
link |
I'd like to hope so that I had no idea that I was going to make it to the age that I am
link |
Um, am I going to make it to 80?
link |
How much of that is in my control?
link |
Much of it is not.
link |
I mean, it's so funny.
link |
It's an interesting, like back to the belief structure again, like locus of internal and
link |
external locus of control.
link |
You know, what's facilitative versus what's true.
link |
And you know, I think accepting personal responsibility for more than is on my control is, is probably
link |
a positive, but at the same time, recognizing that much of much is not in my control.
link |
I was fortunate enough to be born in the United States, fortunate enough to, you know, to
link |
not knock on wood, have, have a serious disease that I'm not aware of right now.
link |
Um, I didn't do any of that.
link |
That was really fortunate.
link |
And I guess that doesn't diminish the fact that I've tried to make decent choices, but
link |
it works in concert with it.
link |
And I, I guess, um, when I, when you go, is death what I want right now?
link |
No, no, I should think not.
link |
And again, it's easier for me to be relatively calm about as I'm not staring it in the face,
link |
but what I would care a lot more about is, is how you live.
link |
That's what's in my control.
link |
And I can't control if, as I walk out of this building, a helicopter falls on me worrying
link |
I can't control it.
link |
Maybe I, maybe I have cancer now and I don't know it and I really hope not.
link |
there's something about meditating on the fact that it could end today outside of your
link |
control that can clarify your thinking about the, the fact that life is amazing, like just
link |
kind of, yeah, helping you enjoy this moment.
link |
Even if life was horrible, let's say for instance, it was, it was, you live at one of those times
link |
or places and this place is still exists in this world today that life is brutal and metal
link |
and whatever all and short and painful.
link |
Would you still want it?
link |
And again, as I'm sitting here and not, not on fire physically, it's easy to say yes,
link |
but I would, I'm confident I still I'll plant my feet and say yes, any of, any life is amazing
link |
and beautiful and a gift and unbelievable gift, uh, that none of us have earned for
link |
We're, I hate the word earned a lot of times earned yet you earn, but it's like, there's
link |
a lot of, a lot of good fortune and earning.
link |
And that's back to, do I want justice or do I want grace?
link |
And I guess we're all fortunate to be where we are, no matter where we are.
link |
And hopefully it should give us some sense of perspective, some sense of compassion for
link |
But also like, like you said, a sense of peace, if it all ended right now, would I be happy
link |
with what I, with life to this point?
link |
I'm like, of course, would you like to live a little longer?
link |
I would try to do more and try to live rightly to the best that I know how, which over time
link |
will hopefully continue to evolve in a, in a positive direction.
link |
But if the answer to that is no, I guess, uh, that's, that's always, that's a sign that,
link |
that what I'm doing is not what I'm meant to be doing.
link |
And I mean, you're familiar with the Tecumseh before, uh, so there's a, I've got one actually,
link |
if you could give me 10 seconds, I'll, I'll read this one out.
link |
This is a personal favorite basically.
link |
And I think it sums up, I mean, again, like it's one of those quotes on the internet,
link |
like when Abraham Lincoln said, don't believe everything you read online.
link |
Um, but, uh, this is, you know, I, it's again, uh, attributed, but it's like, so live your
link |
life that the fear of death can never enter your heart, trouble, no one about their religion,
link |
respect others in their view and demand that they respect yours, love your life, perfect
link |
your life and beautify all things in your life.
link |
Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people.
link |
Prepare a noble death song for the day.
link |
When you go over the great divide, always give a word or sign of salute when meeting
link |
or passing a friend, even a stranger when in a lonely place.
link |
Show respect to all people and grovel to none.
link |
When you arise in the morning, give thanks for the food and for the joy of living.
link |
If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself.
link |
Abuse no one and no thing for abuse turns the wise ones to fools and robs the spirit
link |
When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear
link |
of death so that when their time comes, they weep and pray for a little more time to live
link |
their lives over again in a different way.
link |
Sing your death song and die like a hero going home.
link |
I don't think there's a better way to end it.
link |
Let me just say, we've spoke maybe five, six years ago.
link |
I don't even remember when, but I'm not exaggerating saying like you had a huge impact on my life
link |
because of the podcast.
link |
You're the reason I was doing the podcast as long as I have.
link |
You're the reason I'm doing this podcast.
link |
It's a little, it's a stupid little meeting that you probably didn't know who I was.
link |
I didn't really know who you are.
link |
It was just like a magical moment.
link |
It's a flap of a butterfly wing kind of situation.
link |
And yeah, I'm forever grateful.
link |
You're one of the most inspiring people in my life.
link |
So Ryan, it's a huge honor that you would come here.
link |
Jen didn't talk with me and waste all this time.
link |
I really appreciate it.
link |
Thank you so much, Alexis.
link |
It's just been a pleasure.
link |
I really appreciate you having us on.
link |
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Ryan Hall.
link |
And thank you to our sponsors, PowerDot, Babbel, and Cash App.
link |
Please check out these sponsors in the description to get a discount and to support this podcast.
link |
If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it with five stars on Apple Podcast,
link |
follow on Spotify, support on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman.
link |
And now let me leave you with some words from Frank Herbert in Dune.
link |
Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that makes sense.
link |
But the real universe is always one step beyond logic.
link |
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.