back to indexZev Weinstein: The Next Generation of Big Ideas and Brave Minds | Lex Fridman Podcast #158
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The following is a conversation with Zev Weinstein,
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a young man with a brilliant, bold and hopeful mind
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that I had the great fortune of talking to
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on a recent afternoon.
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He happens to be Eric Weinstein's son,
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but I invited Zev not because of that,
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but because I got a chance to listen to him speak
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on a few occasions and was captivated
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by how deeply he thought about this world
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at such a young age.
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And I thought that it might be fun
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to explore this world of ours together with him
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for a time through this conversation.
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Quick mention of our sponsors.
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Choose wisely, my friends.
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And if you wish, click the sponsor links below
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to get a discount and to support this podcast.
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As a side note, let me say that Zev acknowledges
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the fear associated with participating in public discourse
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and is brave enough to join in at a young age,
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to push forward, to change his mind publicly,
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to learn, to articulate difficult nuanced ideas
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and grow from the conversations that follow.
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In this, I hope he leads the next generation of minds
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that is joining and steering the collective intelligence
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of this big ant colony we think of
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as our human civilization.
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If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube,
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review it on Apple Podcast, follow on Spotify,
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support on Patreon, or connect with me
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on Twitter at Lex Friedman.
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And now, here's my conversation with Zev Weinstein.
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You've said that philosophy becomes more dangerous
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in difficult times.
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What do you mean by that?
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Interestingly, I think I mean two things by that.
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And I think firstly, I should clarify,
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when I say philosophy, I sort of mean
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in a very traditional sense, just thinking, ideation.
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And that could be reconsidering our notions of self
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in a very traditional sense, which we consider philosophy,
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or that could be like technological innovation.
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I think it's important to recognize all of these
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as philosophies that we can not question
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whether it's important to promote thought.
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I think the other thing I should clarify
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is when I say difficult times,
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I mean times when nothing is growing,
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and so the risk for real conflict is much greater
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because people are incentivized to fight over the things
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which already exist.
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I think when times are not difficult,
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the people with the greatest power
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are usually the people who are very creative,
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generating a lot, and that really requires ideation
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or philosophy of some sort.
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I think when times become stagnant,
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the important successful people become the people
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who are very good at protecting their own pieces of the pie
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and taking others.
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I think that those people have to be very opposed
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to any sort of thinking that could restructure society
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or conventions about who should succeed.
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And so firstly, I mean by that
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that it becomes much more dangerous for a person
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to think deeply and question during a time
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when the important people are those concerned
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with making sure no one rocks the boat.
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One example of this would be Socrates and his execution
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because everyone was happy enough
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to sit through his questions before there was war
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and poverty and distress,
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and afterwards it just became too dangerous.
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The other thing I mean by that is that the consequences
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of thinking deeply carry much greater potential
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for real catastrophe when everyone is desperate.
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So like for example, the communist manifesto
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was probably much more dangerous during early 1900s Russia
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than it was during the 1848 revolutions
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because I think people were in much worse shape
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and desperate people are very willing to dive
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into anything new that might bring the future
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without fully calculating
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whatever the consequences or risks might be.
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So it is both more dangerous for a person
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to have creative ideas and those ideas
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are more dangerous when times are tough.
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And by dangerous you mean it challenges the people
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with power who want to maintain that power
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in times of stagnation when there's not much growth,
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innovation, creativity, all that kind of stuff.
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Right, and we know that if nothing new is created,
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people have promises that they've made
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about what will be paid to whom, what debt structure is.
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The only possibility if stagnation lasts for long enough
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is really some kind of great conflict, great war
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because people have to take from others
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to make good on their own promises.
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So we know that by denying any sort of grand ideation
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we are accepting that there will be
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some kind of great catastrophe.
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And so we have to understand that philosophy
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is the most important when we've seen
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too much stagnation for too long.
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It is also very dangerous
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and it's dangerous for the people who are doing it
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and it's dangerous for the people who believe it
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but it's kind of our only way out ever.
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And again, by philosophy you mean the bigger,
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so it's not academic philosophy
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or this kind of games played in the space
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of just like moral philosophy and all those metaphysics,
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all that kind of stuff.
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You mean just thinking deeply about this world,
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thinking from first principles.
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I think your like Twitter line involves something about like.
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Trying to piece everything together from first principles.
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So that's fundamentally what being philosophical
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about this world is and that's where the people
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who are thinking deeply about this world
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are the ones who are feeding,
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who are the catalyst of this growth in society and so on.
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Yeah, I mean, I also think that the real implication
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of moral philosophy can be something
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that most would consider like a real political implication.
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So I think all philosophy really ties together
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because there has to be some sort of grand structure
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to all thought and how it relates.
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Do you think this growth and innovation
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and improvement can last forever?
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We've seen some incredible,
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the thing that humans have been able to accomplish
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over the past several hundred years is just,
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I mean, awe inspiring and every moment in that history,
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it almost seemed like no more could be done.
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Like we've solved all the problems that are to be solved.
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And there's just historically,
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there's all these kind of ridiculous
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like Bill Gates style quotes,
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or like it's obvious that this new cool thing
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is not gonna take off and yet it does.
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And so there's a feeling of the same kind of pattern
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that we see in Moore's law.
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There's constant growth in different technologies
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in the modern day era in any kind of automation
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over the past hundred years.
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Do you think it's possible that we'll keep growing this way
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if we give power to the philosophers of our society?
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I think the only way that we can keep growing this way
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is if we give power to real thinkers.
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And there's no guarantee that that will work,
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but we sort of don't have any other choice.
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And I think you're entirely right
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that this period of both understanding the universe
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at a rate which has never been seen before
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and invention and creativity,
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that these past hundred years
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have been sort of uncharacteristic
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for the level of growth that we've seen in all of history.
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We've never seen anything like this.
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And I think a lot of our promises rest on this sort of thing
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I think that's very dangerous.
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But the one thing that can get us out of this is philosophy
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and being ready to radically restructure
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all of our notions about what should be, what is.
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I think that's very important.
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So you think deeply about this world.
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You are clearly the embodiment of a thinker, of a philosopher.
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Your dad is also one such guy, Eric Weinstein.
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Do you have big disagreements with him
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on this topic in particular?
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I think, now people should know,
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he also happens to be in the room,
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but the mics can't pick him up so he can heckle.
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It doesn't even matter.
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But do you have disagreements with him on this point?
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Let me try to summarize his argument
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that we are actually based a lot of our American society
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on the belief that things will keep growing.
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And yet it seems that however you break it apart,
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maybe from an economics perspective,
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that they're not growing currently.
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And so that's where a lot of our troubles are at.
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Do you have the same sense that there's a stagnation period
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that we're living through over the past couple of decades?
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I think stagnation, modern stagnation is completely
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undeniable, particularly scientifically.
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And I think there have been a few fields
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where tremendous progress has been made very recently.
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I think my dad might feel that
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there is sort of an inevitability
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to the ending of this period.
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And I'm not so certain that the fall of this great time
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is completely inevitable because I don't know
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what thoughts we're capable of producing,
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what we're able to reconsider.
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I think we really have to be open to the possibility
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that all of our standard frameworks where,
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like he will talk about embedded growth obligations.
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If we continue within the same framework,
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then we're very susceptible to the dangers
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of whatever these embedded growth obligations are.
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I think if we break the frameworks,
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we have no reason to believe that the problems
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we're experiencing with our current frameworks
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And I think that's the importance of radical thought
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is we don't know what the solution is,
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but if there is a solution,
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it will be born from some very fundamental thinking.
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And so I have great hope.
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So you have optimism about sort of the power
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of a single radical idea or a single radical thinker
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to break our frameworks and break us out of this,
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like, spiral down due to whatever the economic forces
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that are creating this current stagnation.
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Yeah, I'm very, very hopeful.
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The optimism of youth.
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Well, I share your optimism.
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So let me come back to something you've also talked about.
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You have very little stuff out there currently,
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but the things you have out there, your thoughts,
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you could just tell how deeply you think about this world.
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And one of the things you mentioned is
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as you learn about this world, as you read,
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as you sort of go through different experiences,
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that you're open to changing your mind.
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How often do you find yourself changing your mind?
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Do you think Zev from 10 years into the future
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will look back at this conversation we're having now
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and disagree completely with everything you just said?
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It's entirely possible.
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And that's one of the things that scares me so much
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about appearing publicly.
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I think that the internet can be very intolerant
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And I am entirely prepared to be very inconsistent
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because I know that whatever beliefs I have
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when subjected to scrutiny may change
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because that's really the only way
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to form your truest, most fundamental conceptions
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about the world around you.
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And it would take an infinite amount of time
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to subject every single one of your beliefs to scrutiny.
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And so that's a process that must follow me
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throughout my entire life.
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And I know that means that my opinions and perspectives
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are always to be changing.
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I'm prepared to accept that about myself.
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Whether other people are prepared to accept
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that my public opinions may change
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and vary greatly over time is something I don't know.
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I don't know how tolerant the world will be,
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but I'm very prepared to change anything I believe in
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if I think deeply enough about it
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or a good enough argument is made so that I might reconsider.
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Well, there certainly is currently an intolerance
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and that's one of the problems of our age.
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There's an intolerance towards change.
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And I'll also ask you about labels.
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You talked about sort of we like to bin each other
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into different categories, the blue or red
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or whatever the different categorization is.
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But it seems like the task before you
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as a young person defining our future
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is to make a tolerance of change the norm.
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Doing this podcast, for example,
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and then changing your mind one or two years later
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and doing so publicly without a big dramatic thing
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or maybe changing it on a daily basis
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and just being open about it and being transparent
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about your thought process.
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Maybe that is the beacon of hope for the philosophical way,
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the path of the philosopher.
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So that's your task in a sense
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is to change your mind openly and bravely.
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You know, you're right.
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And maybe I will just have to endure some sort of criticism
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for doing that, but I think that's very important.
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I think this ties back to this previous facet
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of our conversation where we were discussing
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if thinkers would win over systems
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that are devoted to preventing radical thought
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or if who will win the systems or the thinkers.
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I think it's crucial that my generation
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take up a hand in this fight.
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And I think it's important that I'm a part of that
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because I know that I have some opportunity
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to, there is, I think it is my obligation
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as a member of a generation whose only real hope
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is to think outside of a system
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because whatever systems exist are collapsing.
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I think it is really my obligation
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to try to play some role, whatever role I can
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and being an instrument in that change.
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Are you, as a young mind, do you have a sense of fear
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about just like how afraid were you
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to do this podcast conversation?
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Do you have a sense of fear of thinking publicly?
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Yeah, I don't even think that that fear is irrational.
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It's very difficult to exist publicly in any form now
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because it's very easy for anyone to take cheap shots
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at something which is difficult and as I said,
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the people who are trying to have the difficult ideas
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and conversations are perhaps putting others
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in actual danger because everyone is so desperate
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that they might be willing to try anything.
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So there's a certain amount of responsibility
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which one has to take going before the public
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and there is a certain amount of ridicule
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which will be completely unwarranted
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that anyone must endure for it.
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And I think that means that one has to be afraid
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because they could both ruin the world
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and be ruined by the world
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in an unwarranted and undeserved fashion.
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I would like to believe in myself enough
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to try to accept this as a task
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because I think people need to try
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or there's no getting out of this
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and we will end in some kind of crazy, brilliant war.
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You've said also that in these times we can't have labels
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because it holds us back.
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Maybe we've already talked about it a little bit
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but this idea of labels is really interesting.
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Why do you think labels hold us back?
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Well, I think many underestimate the extent
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to which language and communication really impacts
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and shapes the ideas and thoughts
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which are being communicated.
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And I think if we're willing to accept imperfect labels
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to categorize particular people or thoughts,
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in some sense, we are corrupting an abstraction
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in order to represent it and communicate about it.
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And I think as we've discussed,
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those abstractions are particularly important
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when everything is on fire.
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We should not be sacrificing grand thoughts
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for the ability to express it.
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I think everyone should work much harder,
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including myself, to really be thinking abstractly
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in abstract terms instead of using concrete terms
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to discuss abstraction while ruining it slightly.
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Yeah, it's kind of a skill actually.
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So one really difficult example in the recent time
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that maybe you can comment on if you have been thinking
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about it is just politics.
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And there's a lot of labels in politics
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that it takes a lot of skill to be able
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to communicate difficult ideas
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without labels being attached to you.
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That's something that I've been sort of thinking about a lot
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in trying to express, for example,
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how much I love various aspects of the foundational ideas
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of this country, like freedom,
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and just saying, I love America, a simple statement.
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I love the ideas that we're finding to America.
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Well, often in the current time,
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well, people will try, they desperately try
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to attach a label to me, for example,
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for saying I love America, that I'm a Republican,
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a Donald Trump supporter, and it takes elegance
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and grace and skill to avoid those labels
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so that people can actually listen
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to the contents of your words
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versus the summarization that results
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from just the labels that they can pin on you.
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Are you cognizant of the skill required there
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of being able to communicate
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without being branded a Republican or a Democrat
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in this particular set of conversations?
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I'm sure there's other dangerous labels
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that could be attached.
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I don't think there's any way of avoiding that right now.
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It might not be anyone's best effort to really try.
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I think the thing I can say, which will most speak to that,
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which I truly believe, is that participating
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in modern conventional politics
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is not being inherently political
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in a generative sense.
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It's this repeated trope where politics now
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is not about creating new political ideologies.
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It's about defending ideologies which already exist
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so that everyone can keep what they have.
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And that's where all of the name calling
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and the labeling really comes in.
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It's an attempt to constrict whatever may be generated
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to standard conversations and discussions
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so that arguments can be straw manned and defeated
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and people can keep what they have
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because everyone's very, very scared.
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I want to be very political,
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but not in a standard political sense
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where I'm defending a particular party
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or place on a spectrum.
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I would like to play some role in inventing new spectrums
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and I think that's most important politically
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because above most else, politics is about real power
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and conventional politicians have real power
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and that power will find terrible outlets
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if new spectrums for that power to live are not invented.
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So you're not afraid of politics.
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You're afraid of political discourse at the deepest,
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richest level of what political discourse is supposed to mean.
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Actually, I'm very afraid of it, but once again, we have no.
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That's not paralyzing for you.
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You feel like it's a responsibility,
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you're ready to take it on.
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This is a good sign.
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This is, you're a special human.
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Okay, let's talk maybe fun, maybe profound.
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We talked about philosophers, philosophy.
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Who's your favorite philosopher?
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Like somebody in your current time but neither influential
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or you just enjoy his, her ideas
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or writing or anything like that?
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Weirdly, I'll give an answer
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which sort of doesn't have much to do
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with whom I might imagine myself to be.
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I like Thomas Aquinas at the moment.
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I think he's very inspirational to me
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given what we're going through
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and that's not because his particular ideas
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of religion or God or unmoved movers
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are particularly inspirational to me
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and I don't even think they were necessarily right.
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But he was introducing aspects of the scientific method
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during one of the darkest periods in human history
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when we had lost all hope and reason
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and ability to think logically.
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So I think he was really something of a light in the dark
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and I think we need to look to people like that
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The other reason why I think I need to learn from him
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is that even though he was doing something
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which really needed to be done
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and introducing scientific thought and reason
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to a time that lacked it,
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he was not saying anything that would have been offensive
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to whatever powers were in play during his time.
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He was writing about the importance of faith in God
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and how we could prove it.
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And so it's important to remember, I suppose,
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that having ideas that shape the world
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and which bring the world closer to what we can prove
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it's supposed to be and how it's supposed to work
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does not always take some sort of grand contradiction
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of whatever's in play.
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And the most courageous thing to do
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may not always be the most helpful thing to do.
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And I think it's very easy for anyone with ideas
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about how everything is broken to become very cynical
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and say, oh, the system, man, they're all wrong.
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I think it takes another kind of discipline
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to be a person with real ideas
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and to make the world better
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without stepping on anyone's toes or contradicting anyone.
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I have real respect for that.
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So being able to be,
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when it's within your principles to operate,
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within the current system of thought.
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Yeah, and not offend anyone, not say anything outlandish,
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but introduce the method
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by which progress must be achieved.
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I think that takes a kind of maturity,
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which is found very rarely now.
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And I really look to him for inspiration
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despite whatever disagreements I may have
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with the minute details of his philosophy.
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Yeah, it takes a lot of skill, a lot of character,
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and yeah, deep thinking to be able to operate
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within the system when needed
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and having the fortitude and just the boldness
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to step outside and to burn the system down when needed,
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but rarely, and opportune moments
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that would actually have impact.
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I mean, it's ultimately about impact
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within the society that you live in,
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not just making a statement that has no impact.
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Yeah, and we were talking about how dangerous it is
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to do real philosophy at dangerous broken times.
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He was going through the most broken time in history
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and he questioned the methods
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which made a broken system able to survive.
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And he was so skilled and so graceful
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that he became a saint in that tradition.
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And there's something for me to really learn from there.
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Do you draw any inspiration,
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have any interest in the sort of more modern philosophers,
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maybe the existentialists?
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I mean, Nietzsche is one of the early ones.
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Do you have thoughts on the guy in general
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or any of the other existentialists?
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Well, with regard to Nietzsche,
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I think Yates might've said that he's the worst.
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He was certainly filled with passionate intensity.
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Was that a compliment?
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He was the worst or a criticism or both?
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Yates had this big line,
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that the best lack all conviction,
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the worst are filled with passionate intensity.
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So I think Nietzsche was destroyed
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by the horrors of everything that went on around him.
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And I think he never really recovered from it.
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I think that's because if you think about Nietzsche's
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philosophy, he was very opposed to any sort of acceptance
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One should always envy those who have more
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and use that envy to fuel their ideas.
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To fuel their growth and accept whatever
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the human condition and desires are
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and use those desires to want more and more
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and make use of your greed.
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I think it's very difficult to be truly happy
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if the thing which you pride yourself most on
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is never being satisfied.
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And I think Nietzsche was never satisfied
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and that was the danger of his philosophy.
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I think also with his amoralism,
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there is no good or evil.
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I sort of disagree with that on a pretty fundamental basis.
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I think that our notion of morality
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is by no means subjective.
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It's really the proxy for the fitness of a society.
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I think whatever we consider ethical,
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like don't steal, don't murder, don't do this,
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societies have a very difficult time running.
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It's very hard to run a civilization
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when everyone is stealing from everyone else
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and people are murdering each other
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and committing these things,
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which we would consider atrocities.
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So I think we also, we know this
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because I think very similar notions of morality
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have evolved convergently from different traditions.
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I think good is a proxy for a civilization's fitness
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and the good news is that that means that evil
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in being anathema to that good
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must therefore be the opposite of stable
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in whatever way that it's evil.
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And that means that good will always be more stable
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than evil and the only way evil can really win
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is like if everyone dies.
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So I think that's a good thing.
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Everyone dies, so.
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So wait, can you say that again?
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Good is a proxy for society's what?
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Good is a proxy for the stability
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and fitness of a civilization and evil.
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Damn, that's a good definition.
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So you're throwing some bombs today.
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Okay, this is exciting.
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Sorry, sorry to interrupt your flow there,
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but it's just a damn good line.
link |
So in that sense, that's a kind of optimistic view
link |
that if by definition good is a proxy for stability,
link |
then it's going to be stable
link |
unless the entire world just blows itself up.
link |
So good wins in the end by definition.
link |
Or no, well, good wins unless it all goes
link |
to complete destruction.
link |
That's beautifully put.
link |
On a topic of sort of good and evil being human illusions,
link |
you've said that more broadly than that about truth,
link |
that it is easier in some ways to be unified under truth
link |
because it is universal than it is to be unified
link |
under belief, which at times can be completely subjective.
link |
So what is the nature of truth to you?
link |
Can we understand the world objectively
link |
or is most of what we can understand about the world
link |
is just a subjective opinions
link |
that we kind of all agree on in these little collectives
link |
and over time it kind of evolves completely detached
link |
from objective reality.
link |
I think this is the greatest argument for objectivity
link |
is that something that is objectively true
link |
cannot be true to me and untrue to you.
link |
You can feel that it's untrue,
link |
but that would be unproductive
link |
and create unnecessary tension and conflict.
link |
I think this is one reason for the importance of science
link |
as a tool for stability.
link |
If science is the search for truth and truth can never really be,
link |
I shouldn't say that,
link |
truth should never be an engine of conflict
link |
because no two people should disagree on something
link |
which is objectively true,
link |
then in some sense, search for truth is searching
link |
for a common ground where we can all exist
link |
and live without contradicting or attacking each other.
link |
Do you have a hope that there is a lot of common ground
link |
Sure, I mean, if we continue scientifically,
link |
we are discovering truth
link |
and in that discovering common ground
link |
on which we can all agree.
link |
That's one reason why I think caring about science,
link |
if you have a culture which cares very deeply about science,
link |
that's a culture which is not necessarily bound
link |
to injure unwarranted internal conflict.
link |
I think that's one reason that I'm so passionate
link |
about science is it's search for universal ground.
link |
Let me just throw out an example
link |
of a modern day philosophical thinker.
link |
We'll keep your dad, Eric Weinstein out of the picture
link |
for a sec, but he does happen to be an example of one,
link |
but Jordan Peterson is an example of another,
link |
somebody who thinks deeply about this world.
link |
His ideas are by a certain percent of the population,
link |
sort of speaking of truth, are labeled as dangerous.
link |
Why do you think his ideas
link |
or just ideas of these kinds of deep thinkers in general
link |
are labeled as dangerous in our modern world?
link |
Is it similar to what you've been discussing
link |
that in difficult times, philosophers become dangerous?
link |
Or is there something specific
link |
about these particular thinkers in our time?
link |
Well, I think Jordan Peterson is very anti establishment
link |
in a lot of his beliefs.
link |
He's an unconventional thinker.
link |
And I think we need, regardless of whatever
link |
Jordan's particular views and beliefs are,
link |
and if they bring about more danger than truth,
link |
or if they don't, it's very important
link |
to have fundamental thinkers
link |
who exist outside of a conventional framework.
link |
So do I think that he's dangerous?
link |
I think by existing outside of a system which is known,
link |
And I think we have to, in some sense,
link |
in some sense, we have to welcome danger in that capacity
link |
because it will be our only way out of this.
link |
So regardless of whether his beliefs are right or wrong,
link |
I'm pretty adamant about the fact
link |
that we need to support thought which may rescue us.
link |
And that thought can appear radical or dangerous at times.
link |
But ultimately, if you allow for it,
link |
this is kind of the difficult discussion of free speech
link |
and so on, is ultimately difficult ideas
link |
will pave the way for progress.
link |
Yeah, and I'd actually, I'd like to slow you down there
link |
because I think like one of the issues
link |
we were discussing previously was the fact
link |
that language often destroys our ability to think.
link |
When we're talking about whether his ideas are radical,
link |
I don't know if we mean radical in the traditional sense
link |
of having to do with the root of a problem
link |
or in the more modern sense of being very extreme.
link |
And I think that's completely by design,
link |
I think fundamental thought,
link |
which semantically would once be considered radical thought
link |
became very dangerous.
link |
And now it's become synonymous with extreme
link |
or dangerous thought, which means that anyone
link |
who considers themselves a radical thinker
link |
is semantically also a dangerous or extreme thinker.
link |
These are not helpful labels in a sense
link |
that the moment you say radical or extremist thinker,
link |
then you're just, well, how do I put it?
link |
You're not helping the public discourse, exchange of ideas.
link |
But through no fault of our own,
link |
the concept of radical as having to do with a root
link |
is it's an obvious concept for which there must be language
link |
and a lot of the attack on thought has to do
link |
with attacking language, which communicates conceptually.
link |
So like this is an example of how our world
link |
is becoming increasingly Orwellian.
link |
It's just language is being used to destroy
link |
our ability to think.
link |
I think I can't remember exactly what the numbers are,
link |
but I read some statistic about how greatly
link |
the average English vocabulary has been used
link |
and the vocabulary has decreased since 1960.
link |
It was like some incredible number.
link |
It really baffled me.
link |
It's like, how are people less able to think in a time
link |
when the world is supposed to be growing
link |
at a never before seen rate?
link |
It's like, we can't keep on, we can't sustain this growth
link |
if we destroy everyone's ability to think
link |
because the growth requires thinking
link |
and we're ruining the tools for it.
link |
I watched your podcast with Noam Chomsky
link |
and I think one interesting thing which he discussed
link |
was how language is more used to develop thoughts
link |
within our own head than it is used to communicate
link |
those thoughts with others.
link |
If the language doesn't change, even if its usage changes,
link |
when language is destroyed in communication,
link |
it also stymies our ability to think reasonably
link |
and I'm very, very worried.
link |
But the language in communication requires a medium
link |
and there's a lot of different mediums.
link |
So there's social media, there's Twitter,
link |
there's writing books, there's blog posts,
link |
there's podcasts, there's YouTube videos,
link |
all of things you have dipped a toe in
link |
in your exploration of different mediums of communication.
link |
Which do you see yourself, this might be just a poetic way
link |
of asking are you gonna do a podcast,
link |
but broader picture, what do you think as an intellectual
link |
in this world for you personally
link |
would be the path for communicating your ideas to the world?
link |
What are the mediums you are currently drawn to
link |
out of the ones I mentioned or maybe something I didn't?
link |
To answer your question concretely before abstractly,
link |
I'm scared but I need to do a podcast.
link |
It's important, it is my obligation
link |
as a member of my generation.
link |
I really hope that more people my age start to do this
link |
because we will be the people in charge of new ideas
link |
which either sink or swim.
link |
How upset will your dad be
link |
when your podcast quickly becomes more popular than his?
link |
I think he would be negatively upset.
link |
I'll say he'd be proud, he's a good dad.
link |
I really think so, yeah.
link |
Sorry to interrupt.
link |
Yeah, so but then zooming out, do you think podcasts,
link |
are you excited by the possibility
link |
of other mediums outside of podcasting to communicate ideas?
link |
I would be if people still read books
link |
or did things like that.
link |
I'm somewhat guilty of this.
link |
A lot of the books I read are very technical
link |
and then my, to absorb like really deep modern conversations
link |
I listen to podcasts and I don't really read many books
link |
on like the matters that we're discussing, for example.
link |
It's fascinating because you're making me think
link |
of something that I align with you very much
link |
of how I consume deep thinkers currently.
link |
So what happens is somebody who thinks deeply
link |
about the world will write a book, Jordan Peterson example,
link |
and instead of reading their book,
link |
I'll just listen to podcast conversations
link |
of them talking about the book, which I find to,
link |
this is really sad, but I find that to be
link |
a more compelling way to think about their ideas
link |
because they're often challenged in certain ways
link |
in those conversations and they're forced to,
link |
after having boiled them down and really thought
link |
through them enough to write a book.
link |
So it's almost like they needed to go through the process
link |
of writing a book just so they could think through,
link |
convert the language in their minds
link |
into something more concrete,
link |
and then the actual exchange of ideas,
link |
the actual communication of ideas with the public happens
link |
not with the book, but after the book,
link |
with that person going on a book tour
link |
and communicating the ideas.
link |
Well, there are two meanings I make
link |
of why not too many people spend much
link |
of their time reading anymore.
link |
One interpretation is that we've lost our attention spans
link |
to our phones, people can't concentrate on a page
link |
if it takes them a minute to read,
link |
we're too busy watching TikToks or whatever people do.
link |
The other interpretation would be that language
link |
and verbal communication has,
link |
as well as some amount of communication,
link |
which is done through facial expression,
link |
tone of voice, et cetera.
link |
These are means of communication
link |
that have evolved along with humanity
link |
over thousands and thousands of years.
link |
So we know that we are built to communicate in this way.
link |
We have had writing for much less time.
link |
It is a system that we invented,
link |
not a system which evolved and is innately part
link |
of humanity or the human mind.
link |
And so we are designed to consume conversation
link |
by our own evolution.
link |
We are designed to consume writing
link |
by some process of symbols
link |
that's evolved over a couple of thousand years.
link |
It makes sense to me why many are much more compelled
link |
to listen to podcasts, for example,
link |
than they are to read books.
link |
It could be that this is simply a technological progression
link |
which has displaced reading conventionally
link |
instead of some sort of maladaptation of our minds,
link |
which has corrupted our attention spans.
link |
Likely there's some combination
link |
which determines why people spend much less time reading.
link |
But I don't think it's necessarily because we're all broken.
link |
It may simply have to do with the fact
link |
that we are designed to listen through our ears
link |
and speak through our mouths.
link |
And we are not innately designed to communicate over a page.
link |
Yeah, there's an exciting coupling to me
link |
between like few second TikTok videos
link |
that are fun and addicting,
link |
and then the three, four hour podcasts,
link |
which are both really popular in our current time.
link |
So people are both hungry for the visual stimulation
link |
of internet humor and memes.
link |
I'm a huge fan of, and also slow moving deep conversations.
link |
And that might, you know, there's a lot of,
link |
I mean, it's part of your generation
link |
to define what that looks like moving forward.
link |
There were a lot of people, like Joe Rogan's
link |
one of the people that kind of started,
link |
accidentally stumbled into the discovery
link |
that this is like a thing.
link |
And now people are kind of scrambling to figure out
link |
why is this a thing?
link |
Like, why is there so much hunger
link |
for long form conversations?
link |
And how do we optimize that medium
link |
for further, further expression of deep ideas
link |
and all that kind of stuff.
link |
And YouTube is a really interesting medium
link |
Like video, sharing of videos,
link |
mostly YouTube is used with a spirit of like
link |
the TikTok spirit, if I can put it in that way,
link |
which is like, how do I have quick moving things
link |
that even if you're expressing difficult ideas,
link |
they should be quick and exciting and visual and switching.
link |
But there's a lot of exploration there
link |
to see what can we do something deeper
link |
And you're part of the, you have a YouTube channel
link |
releasing one video every few years.
link |
So, so your momentum is currently quite slow,
link |
but perhaps it'll accelerate.
link |
You're one of the people that gets to define that medium.
link |
Is that, do you enjoy that, the visual YouTube medium
link |
of communication as well?
link |
I know that when the topic of conversation
link |
or the means by which a conversation is communicated
link |
or an idea is communicated,
link |
if that is sufficiently interesting to me,
link |
I will read a book on it.
link |
I would listen to a podcast on it.
link |
I would watch a video on it.
link |
I think if I'm very curious about something,
link |
I will consume it however possible.
link |
I think when I have to consume things
link |
which really don't interest me very much,
link |
I'm indeed much more ready to consume them
link |
through some sort of video or discussion
link |
than I am through like a long tedious book.
link |
So for the breadth of acquiring knowledge,
link |
For the depth, the medium doesn't matter.
link |
I think it'd be fun to ask you about
link |
some big philosophical questions
link |
to see if you have an opinion on them.
link |
Do you think there's a free will
link |
or is free will just an illusion?
link |
Well, I think classical mechanics would tell us
link |
that if we were to know every piece of information
link |
about a system and understand the rules
link |
which govern that system,
link |
we would be completely able to predict the future
link |
with complete accuracy.
link |
So if something could know everything about our lives,
link |
it could freeze time and understand the position
link |
of every neuron in my mind about to fire,
link |
no decision could be unpredictable.
link |
In some sense, there is that sort of fate.
link |
I think that doesn't make the decisions we make illegitimate
link |
even if some grand supercomputer could
link |
understand what decisions we would make beforehand
link |
with complete certainty.
link |
I think we're making legitimate systems
link |
within a system that has no freedom.
link |
We're making legitimate systems
link |
within a system that has no freedom.
link |
Can you explain what you mean by that?
link |
Yeah, so if we were to have just a simple pendulum
link |
and I told you how long the rope was,
link |
we froze it at a particular point
link |
and I told you how high above the ground the weight was
link |
and the motion of a pendulum is something
link |
which is easy for everyone to imagine, I could,
link |
if we had all of that information,
link |
you could ask me what will the pendulum do
link |
six and a half minutes from now?
link |
And we would have a precise answer.
link |
That's an example of a very simple system
link |
with a very simple Lagrangian.
link |
And we could completely predict the future.
link |
The pendulum has no ability to do anything
link |
that would surprise us.
link |
Weirdly, that's true of whatever this four dimensional,
link |
crazy world we live in looks like if we were to understand
link |
where every piece of this system was at any given time
link |
and we understand the laws of motion,
link |
how everything worked,
link |
if we could compute all of that information somehow,
link |
which we will never be able to do,
link |
we would, every decision you will ever make
link |
could be predicted by that computer.
link |
That doesn't mean that your decisions are illegitimate.
link |
You are really making those decisions,
link |
but with a completely predictable outcome.
link |
So I'm just sort of a little bit high at the moment
link |
on the poetry of a system within a system
link |
that has no freedom.
link |
So the human experience is the system we've created.
link |
Within the system that has no freedom,
link |
but that system that we've created
link |
has a feeling of freedom that, to us,
link |
ants feels as much more real than the physics,
link |
as we understand it, of the underlying base system.
link |
So it's almost like not important
link |
what the physics of the base system is,
link |
that for what we've created,
link |
the nature of the human experience is there is a free will.
link |
Or there is something that feels close enough to a free will
link |
that it may not be worth spending too much time
link |
on the fact that it's something of an illusion.
link |
We will never build a computer that knows everything
link |
about every piece of the universe at a given time.
link |
And so for all intensive purposes,
link |
our decisions are up to us.
link |
We just happen to know that their outcomes
link |
could be predicted with enough information.
link |
So speaking of supercomputers,
link |
they can predict every single thing
link |
about what's going to ever happen.
link |
What do you think about the philosophical thought experiment
link |
of us living in a simulation?
link |
Do you often find yourself pondering
link |
of us living in a simulation of this question?
link |
Do you think it is at all a useful thought experiment?
link |
I think it's very easy to become fascinated
link |
with all of these possibilities,
link |
and they're completely legitimate possibilities.
link |
Is there some validity to solipsism?
link |
Well, it can never be falsified or disproven.
link |
So, I mean, sure, you could be a figment of my imagination.
link |
It doesn't mean that I will act according
link |
to this possibility.
link |
I'm not gonna call you mean names.
link |
And just to test the system,
link |
to see how robust it is to distortions.
link |
Yeah, so, I mean, all of these existential
link |
thought experiments are completely possible.
link |
We could be brains in jars.
link |
It doesn't mean that our experience will feel any less valid.
link |
And so it doesn't make a difference to me
link |
if you are some number of ones and zeros,
link |
or you are a figment of my imagination,
link |
which lives in a stored away brain.
link |
It will never really change my experience
link |
knowing that that's a possibility.
link |
And so I try to avoid making decisions
link |
based on such contemplations.
link |
If we take this previous issue of free will,
link |
I could decide that because I have no choice in my life,
link |
if I lie around in bed all day and eat chips,
link |
I was destined to do that thing.
link |
And if I make that decision, then I was destined
link |
It would be a really poor decision for me to make.
link |
I have school and a dozen commitments.
link |
There's somebody listening to this right now,
link |
probably hundreds of people sitting down,
link |
eating chips and feeling terrible about them.
link |
So how dare you, sir?
link |
If they're listening to this,
link |
they're clearly curious about possibilities of thought.
link |
It's not the bed and the chips that makes the man.
link |
It's not the bed or the chips that makes the man.
link |
Yet another quotable from Zev Weinstein.
link |
But you don't think of it as a useful thought experiment
link |
from an engineering perspective of virtual reality,
link |
of thinking how we can create
link |
further and further immersive worlds.
link |
Like would it be possible to create worlds
link |
that are so immersive that we would rather live
link |
in that world versus the real world?
link |
I mean, that's another possible trajectory
link |
of the world that you're growing up in
link |
is we're more and more immersing ourselves
link |
into the digital world.
link |
For now it's screens and looking at the screens
link |
and socializing on the screens.
link |
But it's possible to potentially create a world
link |
that's also visually for all of our human senses
link |
as immersive as the physical world.
link |
And then, you know, to me it's an engineering question
link |
of how difficult is it to create a world
link |
that's as immersive and more fun
link |
than the world we currently live in.
link |
It's a terrifying concept and I hate to say it.
link |
We might live happier lives in a virtual reality headset
link |
30 years from now than we are currently living.
link |
This future, the digital future, worries you.
link |
On the other hand, it may be a better alternative
link |
to fighting for whatever people are clinging onto
link |
in our non virtual world or at least the world
link |
that we don't yet know is virtual.
link |
So embrace the future.
link |
We've been talking a lot about thinkers.
link |
Now, in the broad definition of philosophy,
link |
you kind of included innovators of all form.
link |
Do you find it useful to draw a distinction
link |
between thinkers and doers?
link |
I think that the most important gift we've ever been given
link |
is our ability to observe the universe
link |
and think deductively about whatever principles,
link |
transcend humanity.
link |
Because as we discussed, that's the closest thing
link |
we will ever have to a universal experience
link |
is understanding things, which must be true everywhere.
link |
In order for that, so I think if we're deciding
link |
that life is meaningful and the human experience
link |
is meaningful, you could make a very convincing argument
link |
that its greatest meaning will be understanding
link |
whatever transcends it.
link |
I think that's only sustainable if people are happy
link |
and well fed and things of market value are invented.
link |
And so I think we really need both to live meaningful
link |
and successful and possible lives.
link |
In terms of who my greatest heroes are,
link |
I can't decide between figures like Einstein
link |
and Newton and Feynman, and on the other hand,
link |
figures like Carey Mullis, for example.
link |
I think people like Einstein make our lives meaningful
link |
and people like Carey Mullis, who's probably responsible
link |
for saving hundreds of millions of lives,
link |
make our lives possible and good.
link |
So in terms of where I would like to find myself
link |
with these two different notions of achievement,
link |
I don't know what I would more like to achieve.
link |
I have an inclination that it will be something scientific
link |
because I would like to bring meaning to humanity
link |
instead of sustenance, but I think both are very important.
link |
We can't sustain our lives
link |
if we don't keep growing technologically.
link |
I think people like you are making that possible
link |
with computing because that's one of the few things
link |
that's really moving forward in a clear sense.
link |
I think about this a great deal.
link |
So I think both are very important.
link |
So one example that's modern day inspiring figure
link |
on the latter part, on the engineering part,
link |
on the sustenance, is Elon Musk.
link |
Does that somebody you draw inspiration from?
link |
What are your thoughts in general about the kind
link |
of unique spec of human that's creating
link |
so much inspiring innovation in this world so boldly?
link |
I know that we will not survive without people like that.
link |
Elon is a ridiculous and sensational example
link |
of one of these figures.
link |
I don't know if he's the best example or the worst example,
link |
but he is of his own kind.
link |
He is radically individualistic,
link |
and those are the people who will allow us
link |
to continue as humans.
link |
I'm very happy that we have people like that in this world.
link |
You said this thing about if we are to say
link |
that life has meaning or life is meaningful,
link |
then you could argue that it is a worthy pursuit
link |
to transcend life.
link |
Do you see that, another just, I'm gonna have to go back
link |
and sleep on that one.
link |
Do you draw some, speaking of Elon,
link |
some inspiration of us transcending Earth,
link |
of us moving outside of this particular planet
link |
that we've called home for a long time
link |
and colonizing other planets,
link |
and perhaps one day expanding outside the solar system
link |
and expanding, colonizing our galaxy and beyond?
link |
Honestly, I know very little about space exploration.
link |
I think it makes complete sense to me
link |
why we are starting to think very seriously about it.
link |
It's an amazing and baffling and innovative solution
link |
to a lot of problems we see as a world population.
link |
I can't really offer very much of interest on the topic.
link |
I think when I'm talking about transcending humanity
link |
and transcending Earth, I'm talking usually
link |
about deriving truth, and that's one of the things
link |
that makes theoretical math and physics so interesting.
link |
It's like, I really, really love biology, for example,
link |
but biology is a combination of whatever principles
link |
ensure evolution and whatever weird coincidences
link |
happened billions of years ago.
link |
So do you think it's more interesting to understand
link |
the fundamental mechanisms of evolution, for example,
link |
than it is the results, the messy results of its processes?
link |
I can't say which is more interesting.
link |
I can say which I think is more deep.
link |
I think theory and abstraction, which can be achieved
link |
completely deductively, is deeper because it has nothing
link |
to do with circumstance and everything to do
link |
with logic and thought.
link |
So, like, if we were ever to interact with aliens,
link |
for example, we would not have our biology in common
link |
if these were some sort of really intelligent life form.
link |
We would have math and physics in common because the laws
link |
of physics will be the same everywhere in the universe.
link |
Our particular anatomy and biology pertains only to life
link |
on this planet, and the principles may apply
link |
more ubiquitously.
link |
Do you ever think about aliens, like, what they might look like?
link |
I try to, when I deal with thought experiments like these,
link |
I try to keep a very abstract mindset,
link |
and I notice that whenever I try to instantiate
link |
these abstractions, I corrupt whatever thoughts there are
link |
for which they're useful.
link |
So it's kind of like the labels discussion.
link |
So, like, the moment you try to make it concrete,
link |
it's probably going to look like some cute version
link |
of a human, like, it's the little green fellas
link |
with the eyes and so on, or whatever.
link |
Whatever the movies have instilled,
link |
like, your cultural upbringing, you're going to project
link |
onto that and the assumptions you have.
link |
That's interesting.
link |
So you prefer to sort of step away and think
link |
and abstract notions of what it means to be intelligent,
link |
what it means to be a living life form
link |
and all that kind of stuff.
link |
Mm hmm. I try to, I almost try to pretend I'm blind
link |
and I'm deaf and I'm only a mind
link |
with no inductive reasoning capacity
link |
when I'm trying to think about thought experiments like these,
link |
because I know that if I incorporate
link |
whatever my eyes instruct my brain,
link |
I will impede my ability to think as deeply as possible.
link |
Because once again, it's the thing which shallows our thought
link |
can be the incorporation of circumstance and coincidence.
link |
And for particular kinds of thought, that's very important.
link |
I'm not discounting the use of inductive reasoning
link |
in many humanities and in many sciences,
link |
but for the deepest of thoughts,
link |
once again, I feel it's important to try to transcend
link |
whatever methods of observation characterize human experience.
link |
See, but within that, that's all really beautifully put.
link |
I wonder if there is a common mathematics
link |
and a common physics between us and alien beings,
link |
we still have to make concrete the methods of communication.
link |
And that's a fascinating question of like,
link |
while remaining in these abstract fundamental ideas,
link |
how do we communicate with them?
link |
I mean, I suppose that that question could be applied
link |
to different cultures on earth,
link |
but it's finding a common language.
link |
Do you think about that kind of problem
link |
of basically communicating abstract fundamental ideas?
link |
My least favorite aspect of math or physics
link |
or any of these really deep sciences
link |
is the symbolic component. You know, I'm dyslexic.
link |
I don't like looking at symbols.
link |
They're too often a source of ambiguity.
link |
And I think you're entirely right that if one thing
link |
holds us back with communication
link |
with something that behaves or looks nothing like us,
link |
I think if one thing holds us back
link |
it will be symbols and the communication of deep thought.
link |
Because as I said, I think communication
link |
frequently compromises thought by intention
link |
or by just theoretical inadequacy.
link |
So on this topic, actually,
link |
it'd be fun to see what your thoughts are.
link |
Do you think math is invented or discovered?
link |
So you said that math, we might share many different things.
link |
Some ideas of mathematics and physics with alien life forms.
link |
So it's uniform in some sense of uniform throughout the universe.
link |
Do you think this thing that we call mathematics
link |
is something that's kind of fundamental to the world we live in
link |
or is it just some kind of pretty axioms and theorems
link |
we've come up with to try to describe
link |
the patterns we see in the world?
link |
I think it's completely discovered
link |
and completely fundamental to all experience.
link |
I think the only component of mathematics
link |
that has been invented is the expression of it.
link |
And I think in some sense, there's almost an arrogance
link |
required to believe that whatever aspect we invent
link |
having to do with math and physics and theory,
link |
there is an arrogance required to truly believe
link |
that that belongs on any sort of stage
link |
with the actual beauty of the matters being discovered.
link |
So we need our minds and in some sense our pens
link |
to be able to play with these things
link |
and communicate about them.
link |
And those hands and those pens are the things
link |
which smudge the most beautiful thing
link |
that humanity can ever experience.
link |
And maybe if we interact with some intelligent life form,
link |
they will have their own unique smudges.
link |
But the canvas, which is beautiful,
link |
must be identical because that is
link |
universal and ubiquitous truth.
link |
And that's what makes it deep and meaningful
link |
is that it's so much more important than whatever
link |
we're programmed to enjoy as an aspect of human experience.
link |
Yeah, that's really beautifully put.
link |
The human language is these messy smudges
link |
of trying to express something underlying that
link |
Speaking of that, on the physics side,
link |
do you think the pursuit of a theory of everything
link |
in physics, as we may call it in our current times,
link |
of understanding the basic fabric of reality
link |
from a physics perspective is an important pursuit?
link |
I think it's essential.
link |
As I've said, I think ideation is our only escape
link |
from the constraints of human condition.
link |
And I think that it's important that all great thoughts
link |
and ideas are bound together.
link |
And I think the math is beautiful.
link |
And it ensures that the things which
link |
bind great ideas which have already been had
link |
and great discoveries together, it
link |
ensures that those strings will be beautiful.
link |
I think it's very important to unify
link |
all theories that have brought us to where we are.
link |
Do you think humans can do it?
link |
Do you think humans can solve this puzzle?
link |
Is it possible that we, with our limited cognitive capacity,
link |
will never be able to truly understand this deep,
link |
like deeply understand this underlying canvas?
link |
I think if not, it will be people like you
link |
who invent some sort of, I don't know,
link |
we'll call it computation for now,
link |
that will be able to not only discover
link |
that which transcends humanity, but to transcend
link |
human methods of discovering that which is above it.
link |
So superintelligence systems, AGI, and so on,
link |
that are better physicists than us.
link |
I wonder if you might be able to comment.
link |
So your dad does happen to be somebody
link |
who boldly seeks this kind of deep understanding of physics,
link |
the underlying nature of reality from a physics perspective,
link |
from a mathematical physics perspective.
link |
Do you have hope your dad figures it out?
link |
I have great hope.
link |
It's not supposed to be my journey.
link |
It's supposed to be his journey.
link |
It's supposed to be his to express to the world.
link |
Obviously, I'm so proud that I'm connected
link |
to someone who is determined to do such a thing.
link |
And on the other hand, maybe in some sense,
link |
I feel bad for him for having to,
link |
if he's going to be the thing which discovers
link |
some sort of grand unified theory and expresses it,
link |
I feel sorry that he will have to smudge whatever
link |
canvas this thing is.
link |
Because he's human.
link |
Really, I think I know I've seen a little bit of what
link |
I think great math and great physics looks like.
link |
And it's unbelievably beautiful.
link |
And then you have to present it to a world
link |
with market constraints and all of this messy sloppiness.
link |
I feel bad in some sense for my dad
link |
because he has to go back and forth
link |
between this beautiful world of math
link |
and whatever the messiness is of his human life.
link |
And then the scientific community
link |
broadly with egos and tensions and just
link |
the dynamics of what makes us human.
link |
He's also very lucky that he gets to play
link |
with these sorts of things.
link |
I both feel a little sorry for him
link |
for having to deal with the beauty as well as
link |
the smudging and the sloppiness of human expression.
link |
And I think it's difficult not to envy such a beautiful insight
link |
or life or vision.
link |
Well, that's your own path as well
link |
is this kind of struggle of, as you mentioned,
link |
exploring the beauty of different ideas
link |
while having to communicate those ideas with the best smudges
link |
you can in a world that wants to put labels,
link |
that wants to misinterpret, that wants to destroy
link |
the beauty of those ideas.
link |
And you seem to, at this time, with your youthful enthusiasm,
link |
embracing that struggle despite the fear in the face of fear.
link |
And your dad also carries that same youthful enthusiasm
link |
But that said, your dad, Eric Weinstein,
link |
he's a powerful voice, I would say,
link |
a powerful intellect in public discourse.
link |
Is this a burden for you or an inspiration or both
link |
as a young mind yourself?
link |
I think, as I said, there's this weird contrast of I
link |
know that he has ideas, which I think are very beautiful,
link |
and I know he has to deal with the sort of there's something
link |
you have to sacrifice in beauty when you bring it
link |
to a world which is not always beautiful.
link |
And there's an aspect of that which sort of scares me
link |
about this kind of thing.
link |
I also think that, especially since I'm
link |
trying to think about how I should appear publicly,
link |
my dad has been very inspirational
link |
in that I think he brings a sort of fastidious care
link |
to very difficult conversations that.
link |
What does fastidious mean?
link |
It's just very careful and thoughtful.
link |
He brings that sort of attitude to, I think,
link |
really difficult conversations.
link |
And I know that I don't have that skill yet.
link |
I don't think I'm terrible, but.
link |
The care, the nuance, and yet not
link |
being afraid to push forward.
link |
Yeah, I would really like to learn from my dad there.
link |
I think also my dad has been very important to my life
link |
just because I've always been a sort of very idiosyncratic
link |
And I think I don't always know how
link |
to interact with the world for those sorts of reasons.
link |
And I think my dad has always been similar.
link |
And if not for my dad, I don't know
link |
if I would just believe that I was stupid or something.
link |
Because I don't know if I would know
link |
how to interpret my differences from convention.
link |
So he gave you the power to be different
link |
and use that as a superpower.
link |
Yeah, I guess you could put it that way.
link |
I don't know who I would believe I
link |
am if I didn't have my dad telling me
link |
that it wasn't my own stupidity which
link |
alienated me from certain aspects of standard life.
link |
So I'm very, very thankful for that.
link |
Is there a fond memory you have about an interaction
link |
with your dad, either funny, profound, that kind of sticks
link |
Part of the reason I ask that, of course,
link |
is just fascinating to see somebody as brilliant as you,
link |
see how the people that you interact with,
link |
how they form the mind that you have,
link |
but also to give an insight of another public figure
link |
like your dad to see from your perspective of what
link |
kind of little magical moments happen in private life.
link |
I would say I remember I think I just posted about this
link |
on Instagram or something.
link |
Otherwise, it didn't happen.
link |
If you didn't post that, yeah.
link |
One person who's always sort of mattered
link |
to whatever weird life and experience I've had
link |
has been this comedian, Tom Lehrer.
link |
I love him very much.
link |
Anyway, I remember I think I was five or something.
link |
My dad came home with the CD, this Tom Lehrer CD,
link |
and he told me to listen to it.
link |
And it was all of this bizarre satirical writing
link |
about prostitution and cutting up babies
link |
and all kinds of ridiculously vile content
link |
for a five year old.
link |
I think beyond just my love of Tom Lehrer,
link |
I think it was a way for my dad to express
link |
that from a very young age, he was really
link |
ready to treat me like an adult, and he
link |
was ready to trust me and share his life and his enjoyments
link |
with me in a way that was unconventional
link |
because he was willing to discard tradition
link |
for the chance at a really unique and meaningful
link |
parental relationship.
link |
So trusting that his particular brand of weirdness
link |
is something you can understand at a young age
link |
and embrace and learn from it.
link |
Tom Lehrer, we should clarify, is not all about,
link |
what is it, murder and prostitution.
link |
He's one of the wittiest, most brilliant musical artists.
link |
If you haven't listened to his work, you should.
link |
He's just a rare intellect who's able to sort of,
link |
in catchy rhyme, express some really difficult ideas
link |
through satire, I suppose.
link |
That still, even though it's decades ago,
link |
still resonates today, some of the ideas that he expressed.
link |
I will say also that I think I am probably
link |
a more cultured person having listened to Tom Lehrer
link |
than I would have been without, I think,
link |
a lot of his comedy draws upon a canon
link |
that I was really driven to research by saying,
link |
oh, what does this mean?
link |
I don't understand that reference.
link |
There are a lot of references there
link |
to really inspirational things, which he sort of assumes
link |
going into a lot of his songs.
link |
And for many of us, like me, you have
link |
to piece those things together, looking at Wikipedia pages
link |
But to tie this back to the original question,
link |
I think there's sort of a break it,
link |
you bought it notion of parenting.
link |
I think, really, if you're not going to accept a standard,
link |
you have to invent your own.
link |
And I think, in some ways, that was my dad's way of telling me
link |
that if I was too unstandard as a child,
link |
he would invent his own way of parenting me
link |
because that was worth it to him.
link |
And I think that was very meaningful to me.
link |
I know you're young.
link |
This is a weird time to ask this question.
link |
Are you cognizant on the role of love
link |
in your relationship with your dad?
link |
Are you at a place mentally, as a man yourself,
link |
to admit that you love the guy?
link |
I love my dad with the connection
link |
that I think I've had to very few things in the world.
link |
I think my dad is one of the people that's
link |
allowed me to see myself.
link |
And I don't know who I would imagine myself to be
link |
if not for my dad.
link |
That isn't to say that I agree with him on everything.
link |
But I think he's given me courage to accept myself
link |
and to believe that I can teach myself where I'm
link |
unable to learn from convention.
link |
So I love my dad very dearly, yes.
link |
Is there ways in which you wish you could be a better son?
link |
Firstly, I'd like to say I'm sure before I figure out
link |
exactly what those are.
link |
I think whenever I come to conclusions
link |
on what that means, I'm eager to take them.
link |
What do you mean by that?
link |
What do you mean by a conclusion?
link |
If I have an idea for how to be a better son,
link |
I think I'm inclined to try to be that person.
link |
I think that's true of almost anything.
link |
I think if I have ideas for improvement,
link |
it would be wasteful not to act on them.
link |
So I suppose one thing I could say
link |
is that I think idealism and what could almost
link |
be considered naivete is not necessarily
link |
a lacking of maturity, but instead an obligation
link |
to those older than us who have lived and seen too much
link |
to fully believe in what is naive and right
link |
without the assistance of the young
link |
to reinspire traditional idealism.
link |
And so perhaps instead of trying to be more mature all the time,
link |
I should spend some time trying to be an idealistic form of hope
link |
in the lives of people who maybe have seen too much
link |
to retain all of that original hope.
link |
So that's something that's difficult,
link |
but especially appearing in public
link |
as someone as young as I am, I think
link |
anything I do, which is juvenile by choice,
link |
will be held against me.
link |
But maybe that's a sacrifice that I have to make.
link |
I have to retain some sort of youthful hope and optimism.
link |
I mean, I'm going to get teary eyed now, but I have allergies.
link |
But also, this is pretty powerful what you're saying.
link |
I certainly share your ideas.
link |
It's something I struggle with just by instinct.
link |
You should read The Idiot by Dostoevsky.
link |
By instinct, I love being naive and seeing
link |
the world from a hopeful perspective,
link |
from an optimistic perspective.
link |
And it's sad that that is something
link |
you pay a price for in this world,
link |
like in the academic world, especially as you're coming up
link |
through schooling.
link |
But just actually, it's a hit on your reputation
link |
throughout your life.
link |
And it's a sad truth, but you have to, for many things,
link |
if it's a principle you hold, you
link |
have to be willing to pay the costs.
link |
And ultimately, I believe that in part,
link |
a hopeful view will help you realize
link |
the best version of yourself.
link |
Because optimism is a kind of, optimism is productive.
link |
Like believing that the world is and can be amazing
link |
allows you to create a more amazing world somehow.
link |
I mean, I'm not sure if it's the human nature
link |
of a fundamental law of physics.
link |
But believe in the impossible in the sense
link |
being optimistic about the thing.
link |
It's similar, going back to what you've said,
link |
is believing that a radical, that a powerful single idea,
link |
that a single individual can revolutionize some framework
link |
that we're operating in that will change
link |
the world for the better.
link |
Believing that allows you to have the chance
link |
And so I'm with you on the optimism.
link |
But you may have to pay a cost of optimism
link |
and naive hopefulness.
link |
I mean, in some sense, optimism limits freedom.
link |
I think if we don't really have much choice in choosing
link |
what is perfect, if it exists as an ideal,
link |
then there isn't much room for creativity.
link |
And that's a danger of optimism, is someone
link |
who would like to be creative.
link |
I think it was Warren Zeevon said,
link |
accepting dreams, you're never really free.
link |
And that's something I think about a lot.
link |
He's an interesting guy, also.
link |
I really like him.
link |
On that topic, you do have a bit of an appreciation
link |
and connection with music.
link |
I saw you play some guitar a few months ago.
link |
Can you put, in a philosophical sense,
link |
your connection to music?
link |
What insights about life, about just the way
link |
you see the world, do you get from music?
link |
I think the role music has played in my life
link |
was originally motivated by wanting
link |
to prove things to myself.
link |
I really have no ear for music.
link |
I have a terrible sense of pitch.
link |
And I think a lot of music relies
link |
on very standard teaching.
link |
If you think about lessons, for example, music lessons,
link |
there's a routine to them, which is so archaic and traditional
link |
that there's no room for deviation.
link |
I think all of that suggested to me
link |
that I would never have a relationship with music.
link |
I loved listening to music.
link |
It was just difficult to me.
link |
I wanted to know if there was any way I could build
link |
a connection to music, given who I am, my own idiosyncrasies,
link |
what challenges I have.
link |
I decided to try to learn music theory
link |
before I touched an instrument.
link |
I think that gave me a very unique opportunity instead
link |
of spending my time fruitlessly at the beginning
link |
on the syntax of a particular instrument.
link |
This is how you, this is your posture on the piano.
link |
This is how you hold your fingers.
link |
I tried instead to learn what made music work.
link |
And the wonderful thing about that
link |
was I'm pretty sure that any instrument with discrete notes
link |
is mine for the taking within a day or so of having
link |
the ability to play with it.
link |
So I think approaching music abstractly
link |
gave me the ability to instantiate it everywhere.
link |
And I think it also taught me something about self teaching.
link |
Recently, I've tried getting into classical music
link |
because, at least traditionally, this
link |
is the thing which is thought to require the most
link |
rigor and traditional teaching.
link |
I think it's essentially taught me,
link |
even if I'll never be a great classical performer,
link |
that there is nothing one can't really
link |
teach themself in this era.
link |
So I've been enjoying whatever connection I have with music.
link |
The other thing I'll say about it
link |
is that it's a very rewarding learning process.
link |
We know, for example, that music accesses our neurochemicals
link |
And if you teach yourself a little bit of theory
link |
and are able to instantiate it on an instrument
link |
without wasting your time or spending your time tediously
link |
on learning the particulars of that instrument,
link |
you can instantly sit down and access your own dopamine loops.
link |
And so you don't really need to motivate yourself with music
link |
because you're giving your brain drugs.
link |
Who needs motivation to give themselves drugs?
link |
And learn something.
link |
So I think more people should be playing music.
link |
I think a lot of people don't realize how easy it
link |
can be to approach if you take a sort of unstandard approach.
link |
And the unstandard approach in your sense
link |
was understanding the theory first,
link |
and then just from the foundation of the theory,
link |
be able to then just take on any instrument
link |
and start creating something that sounds reasonably good
link |
or learning something that sounds reasonably good.
link |
And then plugging into the, as you call them,
link |
the dopamine loops of your brain,
link |
allowing yourself to enjoy the process.
link |
What about the pain in the ass rigorous process of practice?
link |
So is there something about my dopamine loops, for example,
link |
that enjoys doing the same thing over and over and over again
link |
and watching myself improve?
link |
I think that's because music is more effective at accessing us
link |
when it's played correctly.
link |
And I think you play, I'm positive that you play music
link |
much more correctly than I do.
link |
So if you are going to sit down and play something
link |
that you've learned, that piece will be much more satisfying
link |
to your ears and to your brain than if I
link |
were to play that piece just sitting down
link |
with an instrument.
link |
But it's sort of a trade off with freedom and rigor
link |
because even if I should be spending more of my time
link |
practicing rigorously, I know I don't have to to make me happy.
link |
Well, Jocko Willink, I think, has this saying
link |
that discipline is freedom.
link |
So maybe the repetition of the disciplined repetition
link |
is actually one of the mechanisms of achieving freedom.
link |
It's another way to get to freedom,
link |
that it doesn't have to be a constraint,
link |
but in a sense, unlocks greater sets of opportunity
link |
than results in a deeper experience of freedom.
link |
Particularly if you're thinking about discipline
link |
and method for improvisation, there
link |
are a million pieces that you could improvise
link |
with the same discipline in how to approach
link |
that improvisation.
link |
So I think it's true that discipline promotes freedom
link |
if you insert a layer of indirection.
link |
Because I think if you're trying to learn
link |
one piece that was written 400 years ago
link |
and you're playing it over and over again,
link |
there is nothing personal or creative about that process,
link |
even if it's beautiful and satisfying.
link |
There has to be some sort of discipline applied
link |
to the creativity of self.
link |
So I think that is the layer of indirection
link |
which reconciles both approaches to freedom and discipline
link |
and enjoyment of music.
link |
Discipline applied to the creativity of self.
link |
Now, as an aging man yourself, if you
link |
were to give advice to young folks today
link |
of how to approach life and maybe advice to yourself,
link |
is there some way you could condense a set of principles,
link |
a set of advices you would give to yourself
link |
and to other young folks of how to live life?
link |
I would say that with the collapse of systems
link |
that have existed for thousands of years,
link |
whatever is happening with universities
link |
might be an example of some system that may or may not
link |
I think with the destruction of important systems,
link |
there is a unique opportunity to invest in oneself.
link |
And I think that is always the right approach,
link |
provided that the investment one makes in his self
link |
is obligated towards humanity as a whole.
link |
And I think that is the great struggle of my generation.
link |
Will we create our own paths that
link |
are capable of saving whatever is collapsing?
link |
Or will we be squashed by the debris?
link |
And I hope to articulate what patterns
link |
I see this struggle taking over the years
link |
that my generation becomes particularly
link |
active in the world as an important force.
link |
I think already we're important as a demographic
link |
to particular markets.
link |
But I should hope that our voices will matter as well,
link |
starting very soon.
link |
So I would try to think about that.
link |
That would be my advice.
link |
It's a silly question to ask, perhaps.
link |
But a bit of a Russian one.
link |
It's silly because you're young, but I
link |
don't think it's actually silly because you're young.
link |
Do you ponder your mortality?
link |
And are you just afraid of death in general?
link |
So tying us back to our previous conversations
link |
about abstraction versus experience,
link |
which is determining our notions of our life and our world,
link |
death is interesting in that it is obviously hyper
link |
important to a person's life.
link |
And it is something that, for the most part,
link |
no human will really experience and be able to reflect upon.
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So our notions of death are sort of proof
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that if we want to make the most of our lives,
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we have to think abstractly and relying not at all at times
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on experiential thought and understandings
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because we can't really experience death and reflect
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upon it hence and use it to motivate us.
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It has to remain some sort of abstraction.
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And I think if we have trouble comprehending true abstraction,
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we tend to view ourselves as nearly immortal.
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And I think that's very dangerous.
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So one concrete implication for my belief in abstraction
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would be that we all need to be aware of our own deaths.
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And we need to understand concretely
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the boundaries of our lifetimes.
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And no amount of experience can really motivate that.
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It has to be driven by thought and abstraction in theory.
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That's one of the deepest elements
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of what it means to be human is our ability
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to form abstractions about our mortality versus animals.
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I think there's just something really fundamental
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about our interaction with the abstractions of death.
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And there's a lot of philosophers
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that say that that's actually core to everything
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we create in this world, which is us struggling
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with this impossible to understand idea of mortality.
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I mean, I'm drawn to this idea because both the mystery of it
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but also just from the human experience perspective,
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it seems that you get a lot of meaning from stuff ending.
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It's kind of sad the flip side of that
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to think that stuff won't be as meaningful if it doesn't end,
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if it's not finite.
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But it seems like resources gain value from being finite.
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And that's true for time.
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That's true for the deliciousness of ice cream.
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That's true for love, for everything, for music,
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And yeah, it seems deeply human to try to, as you said,
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concretize the abstractions of mortality
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even though we can never truly experience it
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because that's the whole point of it.
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Once it ends, you can't experience it.
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Again, another ridiculous question.
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What do you think is the meaning of it all?
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What's the meaning of life?
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From your deep thinking about this world,
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is there a good way to answer any
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of the why questions about this existence here on Earth?
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And as I said, we're here in part by principle
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and in part by accident.
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And a lot of the things which bring us joy
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are programmed to bring us joy to ensure
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our evolutionary success.
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And so I would not necessarily consider
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all of the things which bring us joy to be meaningful.
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I think they play a very obvious role and a clear pattern,
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and we don't have much choice in that.
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I think that outrules the idea of joy
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being the meaning of life.
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I think it's a nice thing we get to have,
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even if it's not inherently meaningful.
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I think the most wonderful thing that we have ever been given
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has been our ability to, as I said,
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observe what transcends us as humans.
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And I think to live a meaningful life is to see that
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and hopefully contribute to that.
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So to try to understand what makes us human
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and to transcend that and in some small way contribute to it
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in the finite time we have here.
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Those are some powerful words.
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You're a truly special human being.
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It's really an honor to talk to you.
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I can't, I'm just, I'm a newborn fan of yours
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and I can't wait to see how you push the world.
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Please embrace the fear you feel and be bold.
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And I think you will do some special things in this world.
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I'm confident if the world doesn't destroy you
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and I hope it doesn't.
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Be strong, be brave.
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You're an inspiration.
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Keep doing your thing.
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And thanks for talking today.
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Thank you so much, Les.
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Thanks for listening to this conversation with Zev Weinstein
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And now let me leave you with some words from Aristotle.
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Knowing yourself is the beginning of all wisdom.
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Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.