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Andrew Huberman: Sleep, Dreams, Creativity, Fasting, and Neuroplasticity | Lex Fridman Podcast #164


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The following is a conversation with Andrew Huberman, his second
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time in the podcast. He's a neuroscientist at Stanford, a
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world class researcher and educator. And now he has a new
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podcast on YouTube, and all the usual places called Huberman
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Lab, that I can't recommend highly enough. Quick mention of our
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sponsors, masterclass online courses for systematic mushroom
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coffee, magic spoon low carb cereal, and better help online
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therapy, click the sponsor links to get a discount. By the way,
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masterclass is testing to see if they want to support this
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podcast long term. So if you're on the fence, now is the time to
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sign up. And I'm pretty sure Andrew will have a neuroscience
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masterclass on there soon enough, though his podcast is
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basically a weekly masterclass in itself. As a side note, let me
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say that Andrew is a friend and a new collaborator. We're working
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on a paper together about a topic we're both really passionate
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about. At the intersection of neuroscience and machine
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learning. But that's probably many months away from being
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published. Still, I'm really excited about this work. He's
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one of the smartest and kindest people I have the pleasure of
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talking to on this podcast. So I hope we'll talk many more
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times in the future. If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on
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YouTube, review it and have a podcast, follow on Spotify,
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support on Patreon or connect with me on Twitter at Lex
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Friedman. And now here's my conversation with Andrew Huberman. Why
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do humans need sleep? Let's go with a big first question.
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Okay, well, the answer I'll start with is the one that I always
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default to when there's a why question. I wasn't consulted at
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the design phase. So, so, so I wriggle my way out of giving a
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absolute answer, right? But there's one mechanism that's very
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clear. That's super important, which is that the longer we are
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awake, the more adenosine accumulates in our brain. And
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adenosine binds to adenosine receptors. No surprise there.
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And it creates the feeling of sleepiness, independent of time
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of day or night. So there are two mechanisms. One is we get
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sleepy. As adenosine accumulates, the longer we've been awake,
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the more adenosine is accumulated in our system. But how sleepy we
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get for a given amount of adenosine depends on where we
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are in this so called circadian cycle. And the circadian cycle
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is just this very, very well conserved oscillation. It's a
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temperature oscillation, where you go from a low point,
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typically, if you're awake during the day and you're asleep at
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night, your lowest temperature point will be like 3am, 4am,
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and then your temperature will start to creep up as you wake
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up in the morning, and then it'll peak in the late afternoon,
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and then it'll start to drop again toward the evening, and
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then you get sleep again. That oscillation in temperature
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takes 24 hours, plus or minus an hour. And I don't even though
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I wasn't consulted at the design phase, I do not think it's a
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coincidence that it's aligned to the 24 hour spin of the earth on
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its axis, and the fact that we tend to be bathed in sunlight for
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a portion of that spin, and in darkness for the other portion
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of that spin. So there are two mechanisms, the adenosine
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accumulation and the circadian time point that we happen to be
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at. And those converge to create a sense of sleepiness,
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awakefulness. The simple way to reveal these two mechanisms to
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uncouple them is stay up for 24 hours, and you will find that
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even though you've been, let's say you stay up midnight, two
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AM, three AM, provided you're on a regular schedule, like that I
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follow, not like the kind that you follow, you get, I will get
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very sleepy around three, four AM. But then around five or six
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or seven AM, which is my normal wake up time, I'll start to
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feel more alert, even though adenosine has been accumulating
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further. So adenosine is higher for me the longer I stay up,
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and yet I feel more alert than I did a few hours ago. And
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that's because these are two interacting forces. So adenosine
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makes you sleepy. And then just how sleepy or how awake you
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feel also depends on where you are in this temperature
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oscillation that takes 24 hours.
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Okay, so that's fascinating. So there's a bunch of
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oscillations going on. And then it kind of through the
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evolutionary process have evolved to all be aligned
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somewhat, and they interplay. So you said your body
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temperature goes up and down. Those chemicals in your brain
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that oscillate. And then there's the actual oscillation of
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the, the sun in the in the sky. So all of that together has
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some impact on each other. And somehow that all results in us
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wanting to go to sleep every night.
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Right. So, and we can get right into the meat of this. I
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guess we just dove right in. But the, so that the temperature
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oscillation is the effector of the circadian clock. So every cell
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in our body has a 24 hour rhythm that's dictated by genes
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like clock per BMAL. This is one of the great successes of
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biology. They give a Nobel Prize to the repert and I don't
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know if repert got it, forgive me. But sorry, if you got it,
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Steve, congratulations. If you didn't, I'm sorry, I wasn't on
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the committee. Nonetheless, did beautiful work Steve repert
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and others. But Mike Roshbosh and like other people worked out
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these mechanisms and flies and bacteria and mammals, there are
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these genes that create 24 hour oscillations in gene expression,
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et cetera, in every cell of our body. But what aligns those is
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a signal from the master circadian clock, which sits
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right above the roof of the mouth called the super charismatic
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nucleus. And that clock synchronizes all the clocks of
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the body to this general temperature rhythm by way of
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controlling systemic temperature, which makes perfect
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sense. If you want to create a general oscillation in all the
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tissues and organs of the body, use temperature. And so that
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work on temperature, if you want to explore it further was Joe
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Takahashi, who was at Northwestern now at UT Southwestern
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in Dallas. And it is absolutely clear that humans do better on
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a diurnal schedule, sorry, Lex, than a nocturnal schedule,
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because you could say, well, provided I sleep and push a
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denticing back downhill, which is what happens when we sleep,
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a denticing that is then reduced, and provided I am on more
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or less a 24 hour schedule, why should it matter that I'm awake
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when the sun's out? And, and I'm asleep when the sun is down.
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But it turns out that if you look at health metrics, people
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that are strictly nocturnal, do far worse on immune function or
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metabolic function, et cetera, than people who are diurnal who
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are awake during the daytime. And animals that are nocturnal,
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it's the opposite. And animals that are so called corpuscular,
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which tend to be active at dawn and at dusk. This is a beautiful
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system. I won't go down that rabbit hole. But these are
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animals whose visual systems operate best. They tend to be
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predators like mountain lions. They have optimized their
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waking times for the times when the animals they eat can't see
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well in those light conditions. But given the rod cone ratios in
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their eyes, that the mountain line is picking off. It's like,
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when you see special forces, and they are looking through night
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vision goggles, and they have a clear advantage, right? They're
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seeing in the dark. That's basically what it's like to be
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a mountain lion, as opposed to a bunny rabbit.
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Would you say that a lot of these cycles evolved in the predator
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prey relationships of the different throughout the food
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chain? So it's basically all somehow has to do with survival in
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this complicated web of predators and prey?
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Almost certainly. There had to have been a time in which humans
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being awake and active at night, as opposed to during the day,
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led to higher levels of lethality, and probably particular in
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kids. Can you imagine kids running around in the dark and
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getting where there are a lot of animals that can see really
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well under those conditions, and humans can't. And this would
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be all pre electricity. Even if you're carrying a torch, I mean,
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the range of illumination on a torch is nothing compared to
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what a nighttime predator like a large cat or something can do.
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They basically, they can see everything they need to in order
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to eat us and not the other way around.
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So one fascinating thing you said is that blew my mind and
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we went right past it, which is that temperature is a really
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powerful, like, if you were to think about the ways that
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different parts of the body, different systems in the body
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would communicate with each other, temperature would be a
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really good one. And that just, I mean, maybe it's obvious, but
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it kind of blew my mind just now that, yeah, these systems are
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all distributed, right? And they have to kind of, they're not
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actually sending signals, but they're coordinating, they need
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some sort of universal thing to look at in order to coordinate.
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And temperature is a nice one to, to, to build around. And that
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way, you could control the behavior of all these different
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systems by controlling the temperature, right? If it's
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attractive to think of a mechanism where this master
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circadian clocks, it creates a peptide or something that goes
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and locks to receptors in all the cells and gets it just right.
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But that leaves far too much room for variability, binding
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affinities, cells in a lot of parts of our body are at
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different stages of maturation, they're turning over liver
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cells and so forth. And for instance, we have a clock in
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our gut and in our liver, such that if we were just take out
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your liver and put it on a table, and just look at the
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expression of these genes, it would be in a 24 hour
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oscillation on its own, it's independent. But something has
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to entrain them and keep them all synchronized. And so it's not
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obvious that it would be temperature. Takahashi's great
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gift to biology was to show that all the stuff coming out of
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this master circadian clock, at the end of the day, that's a
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weird statement, no pun intended, at the end of the day and
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the night, at the, at the end of the story, it all boils down to
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making sure that the temperature of tissues
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oscillates in the same fashion.
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That's blowing my mind and thinking like what other
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mechanism could possibly exist to create that kind of
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oscillation.
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Well, in your, your Russian, it's cold in Russia for a lot of
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the year, the hibernation signal in certain animals is a
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remarkable signal. There are peptides secreted from this
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very same clock, that in animals like ground squirrels or
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bears, they go into a kind of a torpor where everything
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reproduction, metabolism, everything is reduced while
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they're in their cave, they don't actually stay asleep all of
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winter, that's a myth. And they actually do these very
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dramatic and periodic arousals from hibernation where they
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just shake and shake and shake, it looks like a seizure, and
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then they go back under into the torpor. That's from a peptide
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that's released. But that's different because that's about
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shutting down the whole system. It's clear that having these
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very regular oscillations every 24 hours is essential for
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everything from metabolism to reproduction.
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Is there an optimal temperature for sleep that I should
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mention? I think your latest episode, you and people should
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go check out helixsleep.com slash huberman to support Andrew.
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Thanks for the plug.
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I mean, the amazing thing about that stuff they created and
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oh, and yes, you have a new podcast that's amazing. And
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this past month, he did a whole series on sleep, which is
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definitely check out. There's some podcasts that come out that
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just make me want to be a better human being by just the
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quality. Three blue one brown, Grant Sanderson is like that for
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me, just like, wow, this is education is best. So Andrew
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symbolizes that captures that brilliantly. So go support the
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sponsor so he doesn't stop doing the thing. So they I think
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they have a cooling pad too. So I ate sleep mattress sponsors
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me. They've been they sent me a mattress and it's been I've
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never listened. I used to sleep on the floor sleep or you fall
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sleep or I fall I don't give a shit. It doesn't doesn't really
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matter. But so like I would have never bought a nice mattress
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because it's like why I'm fine. This is a floor is fine. But it
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was a game changer to be able to control temperature. Like for
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me, it's cooling to cool. I don't know what the hell it is.
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Well, you want the brain and nervous system and rest of the
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body needs to drop by about anywhere from two to three
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degrees in order to get into your deepest sleep and
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transition to sleep. That's really going to help. You don't
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want to be cold that you're bothered and can't fall asleep.
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But that's why some people like it really cold in the room and
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under a warm blanket or with socks on for some people that can
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that can be good because this temperature oscillation is such
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that as your temperature is dropping, that correlates with
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the generally with the most sleepy phase of your circadian
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cycle. So cool is better for falling and staying asleep and
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sleeping deeply. And then I guess like that's what AIDS
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sleep showed there like an app is it warms back up to wake you
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up. The idea that I haven't actually used it like this is
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stupid. People say it works, but I just keep it the same
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temperature throughout the night. But warming it up, I guess
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wakes you up, which is which is fascinating. Yeah, because
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you're the wake up signal is it's interesting to think about
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it's not just correlated with an increase in body temperature.
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The increase in body temperature is triggering the
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release of cortisol from your adrenals and that's the wake
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up signal. Do you think it's absolute temperatures we're
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talking about is just even relative? Just even just the
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decrease? Well, everyone's going to have slightly different
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basal temperature. The idea that everybody should be 98.6. I
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mean, that's a myth. And there's a theories that body
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temperature overall has been dropping in the last 50 years
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or so. I doubt that's true for somebody who is athletic like
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you and is, you know, young and healthy. But basically the
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the coldest period of that 24 hour cycle is when you are
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going to be sleepiest. There's actually a period within that
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24 hour cycle. It's a it's a time point called your
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temperature minimum. And your temperature minimum tends to
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be about two hours before your typical wake up time. I'm not
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talking about the wake up time in the middle of the night
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where you go use the bathroom or where you set an alarm to go
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catch a flight. I mean, if you were to just allow yourself to
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sleep without a clock for a few days, measure when you
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typically wake up two hours before then is your temperature
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minimum. And that temperature minimum turns out to be a
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very important landmark in your circadian cycle because it
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turns out that if you get bright light in your eyes in the
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hours immediately before your temperature minimum. So two to
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four hours or any time within the two or four hour window
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before that temperature minimum, you are going to what's
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called delay your circadian clock the next day that whole
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oscillation is going to move forward. It'll make you want to
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go to sleep later and wake up later. Whereas if you get
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bright lighting your eyes in the hours after that temperature
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minimum. So let's say for me, typical wake up time is six
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a.m. my temperature minimum somewhere around four a.m. If
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I get bright light in my eyes, five a.m. six a.m. seven a.m.
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It's going to advance that oscillation so that I'll want to
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go to bed earlier and wake up earlier the subsequent nights.
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So you might say, wait, but most nights I go to sleep and
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wake up at more or less the same time. Why is that? And
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that's because the same thing is happening on both sides. You
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are both advancing your clock a little bit and assuming that
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you're looking at light in the evening, you're also delaying
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your clock a little bit so you get kind of captured in
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between and then your rhythm more or less oscillates at the
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same period as we say is the spin of the earth. Unless
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you're like you where you're I get text messages from you
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sometimes that odd hours and I if you're on the east coast,
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then I know that you had to have been pulling basically an
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all night. Yeah. That's the interesting point about the
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messiness of sleep. So most people seem to perform the
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best when they have like a regular sleep schedule.
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I perhaps am the same, but I don't know that and I tend to
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believe that you can also perform relatively optimally
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with chaos of sleep of like a weird soup of like power
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naps and all nighters and all of that as long as you're
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like happy doing what you love and maybe you can
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tell me what you think about this. So I tend to for myself
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try to minimize stress in life. So what I found for myself
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with diet with sleep is that if I obsess about it being
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perfect, then I'll actually stress quite a bit when it's
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not like I'll feel shitty when I don't get enough sleep
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because I know I should be getting more sleep as opposed to
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the actual physiological effects of not getting enough sleep.
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I find if I just accept whatever the hell happens happens
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and smile and just take it all in like David Goggins style,
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like if it sucks, it's even better or what is it?
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00:17:45.120
Jocko's like good or whatever he says. Right. I think
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00:17:48.640
there's several things that you said that are important,
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00:17:50.960
but I agree that one can have a dysregulated sleep schedule
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00:17:55.680
and still be a happy person and productive. Much of my
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00:17:58.800
life I've pulled all nighters and slept weird schedules.
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00:18:03.120
I think many people can probably relate to going to sleep,
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00:18:06.400
waking up four hours later, being up for an hour or two on your
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00:18:08.960
computer, then going back to sleep and getting amazing
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00:18:10.880
sleep the next day functioning. I think it's important
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00:18:15.520
that people have highlighted the importance of sleep
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00:18:18.800
and getting enough rest. I do think it's gone too far
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00:18:22.800
and now I'm editorializing a little bit, but I think that
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00:18:26.000
we've created this anxiety about sleep that if we don't
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00:18:29.280
sleep enough, we're going to get dementia. If we don't get
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00:18:31.200
sleep, then the reproductive axis is going to completely crash.
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00:18:37.440
There's a lot of evidence to the contrary and as well,
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00:18:40.560
just based on personal experience and based on the fact that
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00:18:43.840
sure, it may be that a solid eight hours with no interruptions
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00:18:48.560
in there or nine or 10 could do great benefit, but you can do
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00:18:52.560
really well if you do what you say, which is you wake up, you
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00:18:56.000
don't want to start stressing about it, creating this meta
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00:18:58.240
stress about sleep. Being happy is actually one of the most
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00:19:03.040
powerful things that you can do, not allowing yourself to go
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00:19:05.840
down that rabbit hole of stress. For the following reason,
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00:19:09.920
a lot of our fatigue is not due just to the buildup of a
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00:19:13.280
denocene or time of day, the circadian thing we were talking
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00:19:15.920
about earlier. An additional factor is that effort is
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00:19:20.960
related to the release of epinephrine, of adrenaline in
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00:19:23.280
our brain and body. At some point, those levels get so high
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00:19:28.720
that we get stressed mentally, we get stressed physically and
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00:19:33.440
we want to give up. There are good data published in cell
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00:19:36.160
showing that that signal, the epinephrine signal, is
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00:19:39.120
eventually accumulates and there's a quit point. Dopamine,
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00:19:42.800
the molecule of pursuit and reward and feeling good,
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00:19:47.040
resets our ability to be in effort. In fact, a lot of people
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00:19:51.680
don't know this, but dopamine is actually what epinephrine is
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00:19:55.680
made from. If you look at the biochemical cascade, it starts
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00:19:58.560
with tyrosine, which is rich in red, found in red meats and
link |
00:20:02.320
things of that sort, and tyrosine is eventually
link |
00:20:04.560
converted through things like Ldopa into dopamine. Dopamine is
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00:20:08.240
made into epinephrine. I mean, this sounds kind of new agey,
link |
00:20:11.760
but happiness, joy, and pleasure in what you're doing
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00:20:16.080
creates a chemical milieu that provides more of the chemicals
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00:20:21.040
that allow for effort. There's nothing new agey about that.
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00:20:24.160
It's in every biochemistry textbook. It's in every decent
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00:20:26.800
neuroscience textbook. They just don't talk about the
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00:20:28.800
happiness part. They just talk about the dopamine part. I
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00:20:31.600
think that limiting your stress and at least recognizing,
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00:20:34.800
okay, if you're pulling an all nighter or you're somehow
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00:20:37.280
on messed up sleep, that there is going to be a point in that
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00:20:42.080
24 hour cycle where your brain is not trustworthy, where your
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00:20:46.400
mental state is not worth placing too much weight on
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00:20:50.880
because you are near that temperature minimum and near
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00:20:53.680
that temperature minimum, which correlates to that two
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00:20:56.320
hours, about two hours before you would normally wake up,
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00:21:00.320
the brain is hobbling along and anything you feel or think at
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00:21:05.760
that time should not be given too much value. But if you can
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00:21:10.160
trick yourself into thinking that's the pleasure point, you
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00:21:13.360
afford yourself a huge advantage. There's a study done by a
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00:21:16.160
colleague of mine at Stanford that showed that positive
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00:21:19.440
anticipation about the next day events actually is a powerful
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00:21:25.360
metric for creating quality sleep even if the sleep is very
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00:21:30.560
reduced. You'll love this one and a lot of people might be
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00:21:35.360
critical of this, so I just want to make sure that this is
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00:21:37.440
work done out of Harvard Medical. It was Bob Stickgold's
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00:21:42.160
lab and Emily Hoglund did the study that showed looking at
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00:21:46.240
Ochem, performance on Ochem scores. Okay, so organic chemistry
link |
00:21:49.760
Harvard's pretty tough subject, highly motivated, a number of
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00:21:53.200
very good control groups in this study. What she showed was
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00:21:56.800
that consistency of total sleep duration was far more
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00:22:00.880
important for performance on these exams than total sleep
link |
00:22:05.040
duration itself. So it's not that just getting more sleep
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00:22:08.640
allows you to perform better. Consistently getting about the
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00:22:12.080
same amount of sleep is better for performance at least on
link |
00:22:16.480
Ochem than just getting more. That's interesting. So that's
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00:22:21.200
referring to more that there should be a consistent habit
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00:22:25.360
versus the total amount. To me, the entirety of the picture of
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00:22:29.920
sleep is similar to nutrition in that it feels like it's
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00:22:38.320
there's so many variables involved and it's so person
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00:22:40.960
specific. So, you know, a lot of studies, I mean, this is the
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00:22:44.960
way of science, has to look and aggregate the effects on
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00:22:48.960
sleep. It doesn't focus on high performers, which are
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00:22:52.800
individuals ultimately. Like the question isn't, so it's a
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00:22:58.240
very important question is like, what kind of diet fights
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00:23:01.360
obesity, reduces obesity? It's another question, what kind of
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00:23:06.000
diet allows David Goggins to be the best version of himself?
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00:23:09.200
So these high performers in different avenues and the same
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00:23:12.320
thing with sleep, like people that tell me that I should get
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00:23:16.320
eight hours of sleep, it's like, it's, I mean, I get it and
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00:23:23.840
they may be right, but they may be very wrong. There's no
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00:23:26.640
evidence that eight is better than six, that you could very
link |
00:23:31.200
well do better on six than on eight. There are a few other
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00:23:34.080
things that turn out to be strong parameters for success in
link |
00:23:37.760
this domain. For instance, your entire life, waking or
link |
00:23:41.760
asleep, is broken up into these 90 minute ultradian cycles.
link |
00:23:44.640
If you look at ability to attend or do math problems or do
link |
00:23:47.760
anything, you know, drive, performance tends to ramp up
link |
00:23:52.320
slowly within a 90 minute cycle peak and then come down at
link |
00:23:55.440
the end of that 90 minute cycle. And in sleep, we go
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00:23:58.400
through these stage one, two, three, four, REM, etc. We
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00:24:01.280
talked more about that, if you like, those on 90 minute
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00:24:03.440
ultradian cycles as well. Ending your sleep after a 90
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00:24:07.040
minute cycle at the near the end of a 90 minute cycle, say at
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00:24:10.960
the end of six hours, in many cases is better for you than
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00:24:15.200
sleeping an additional hour, seven hours and waking up in
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00:24:17.680
the middle of an ultradian cycle. And there are a few
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00:24:19.920
apps that can measure this based on body movements and
link |
00:24:22.480
things like that that have you, your alarm go off at the end
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00:24:26.080
of an ultradian cycle. And if you wake up in the middle of
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00:24:29.200
an ultradian cycle, sometimes not always, you can be very
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00:24:32.080
groggy for a long period of time. I certainly do better on
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00:24:35.280
six hours than I do on seven. I happen to like an eight hour
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00:24:39.120
sleep. It feels great, but I haven't slept an entire eight
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00:24:42.640
hours without waking up in the middle of the night at some
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00:24:44.720
point in, I don't know, forever. I can't remember. It's
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00:24:49.200
probably some point in infancy, but and I function well
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00:24:52.560
during the day. I think that that's a big, that's an
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00:24:56.240
important parameter is how do you feel during the day? Almost
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00:24:59.120
everybody experiences some sort of dip in energy in the late
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00:25:02.320
afternoon or what would correlate to their temperature
link |
00:25:04.320
peak. And that's a good time of day to get either a 90
link |
00:25:08.720
minute or less nap. Or if you're not a napper or you can't
link |
00:25:13.120
nap, feet elevated has been shown to be good for clear
link |
00:25:18.720
out of some of this. The glimphatic system is this
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00:25:22.160
kind of like sewer system of the brain that you can clear
link |
00:25:24.000
stuff out. So legs elevated or one thing that I'm a big
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00:25:28.400
proponent of and that my lab has been studying is what I
link |
00:25:30.880
now call NSDR, non sleep deep rest. And this is just lying
link |
00:25:35.360
down. There are some scripts that we're going to put out
link |
00:25:37.920
there soon as a free resource. There's some hypnosis
link |
00:25:40.800
scripts that my colleague David Spiegel has put out there as
link |
00:25:42.800
a free resource. But non sleep deep rest is allowing your
link |
00:25:46.160
system to drop into states of real calm that allow you to
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00:25:50.320
get better at falling asleep later. And they can be very
link |
00:25:53.120
restorative for cognitive and motor function. There's at
link |
00:25:55.760
least one study out of Denmark that shows that the basal
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00:26:00.800
ganglia, which is an area of the brain that's involved in
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00:26:02.800
motor planning and action, one of these 20 minute non sleep
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00:26:06.000
deep rest protocols resets levels of neuromodulators like
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00:26:09.280
dopamine in the basal ganglia to the same levels that they
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00:26:12.720
were right after a long night's sleep. So I also
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00:26:17.440
respectfully or semi respectfully disagree with the
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00:26:20.560
idea that you can't recover lost sleep. What does that mean?
link |
00:26:23.920
I mean that there's no IRS for sleep. So what does it mean
link |
00:26:27.440
to be in debt for sleep? If you're falling asleep during
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00:26:30.400
the day and you're sleepy, like you're falling asleep,
link |
00:26:32.880
that's a good sign of insomnia means you're not sleeping
link |
00:26:36.000
enough at night. If you're fatigued during the day,
link |
00:26:38.640
but you're not falling asleep, so you're just exhausted,
link |
00:26:41.200
but you're not finding yourself falling asleep in
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00:26:42.960
meetings and in conversation, then chances are you're
link |
00:26:46.800
fatiguing your system through something else like a long
link |
00:26:50.720
run in the middle of the night at Boston or whatever it is
link |
00:26:53.040
that you're up to lately at 3 a.m. Yes. There is a magic to
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00:26:57.120
the nap and maybe you could speak to the because you
link |
00:27:01.520
mentioned these protocols that don't necessarily, so
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00:27:05.280
they're non sleep, but to me the nap one or two a day can
link |
00:27:14.000
almost irrespective of how much sleep I get the night
link |
00:27:16.960
before have a fundamental change in my mood and my
link |
00:27:21.440
performance for the better for the better for the better.
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00:27:23.920
Yeah, likewise. So I do tend to kind of experiment with
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00:27:28.880
durations. It's it's consistently surprising to me
link |
00:27:33.520
how like a nap of like 10 minutes, I don't know, maybe you
link |
00:27:37.120
can speak to the perfect duration of a nap, but I find
link |
00:27:41.200
that it's like magic that a short nap does as much good
link |
00:27:46.720
and often better than a longer one for me, for me
link |
00:27:50.080
subjective. What would be a longer one? Longer than 90
link |
00:27:52.640
minutes? No, no, like 90 minutes or but longer than
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00:27:55.680
90, like two hours. Yeah, that's dropping you starting to
link |
00:27:58.480
drop you into REM sleep and even if it's a tiny amount of
link |
00:28:01.280
REM sleep, people can come out of those naps kind of
link |
00:28:03.360
disoriented. Right. I mean, remember in sleep space and
link |
00:28:06.080
time are are totally uncoupled and so they that's an odd
link |
00:28:10.640
state to reenter the world in if you're not going to stay
link |
00:28:13.280
there for a while like for a good night's sleep. I think a
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00:28:16.240
20 minute nap is pretty fantastic. Would you say
link |
00:28:19.280
that's the if you were to recommend to the general and
link |
00:28:22.000
it's it's very weird to recommend anything to the
link |
00:28:24.960
general populace because obviously it's very person
link |
00:28:27.760
specific, but what's a good one where you say to friends
link |
00:28:31.360
is 20 minutes, 20 or 30 minutes, 20 or 30 minutes
link |
00:28:34.800
because you're going unless you're sleep deprived,
link |
00:28:37.280
you're going to stay out of REM sleep, rapid eye movement
link |
00:28:40.800
sleep. If you're sleep deprived, you'll drop right
link |
00:28:42.720
into it. If you've ever traveled and you're really
link |
00:28:44.400
jet lagged, you go to the hotel, you lay down for
link |
00:28:46.400
one second, all of a sudden you're just like you're
link |
00:28:49.280
you're in a psychedelic dream, which can be pretty
link |
00:28:53.360
great too. But I think that 20, 30 minutes and if you
link |
00:28:59.200
can't sleep, some people have trouble napping, then
link |
00:29:02.080
learning to relax the body as much as possible like
link |
00:29:04.880
trying to remove all expression from your face
link |
00:29:07.200
completely letting your body kind of float. If people
link |
00:29:10.560
have a hard time relaxing when they're awake, there's
link |
00:29:13.520
some terrific clinically and research tested hypnosis
link |
00:29:17.280
protocols that we could provide links to that are
link |
00:29:20.400
cost free and that teach you how to just completely
link |
00:29:24.560
release the alertness button and you just start
link |
00:29:27.520
drifting. Now, the problem is if you don't have an
link |
00:29:30.640
alarm or something to go off, the other day I did
link |
00:29:33.360
one and I'm almost embarrassed to say this, but
link |
00:29:35.760
there's a component of it where you actually are
link |
00:29:37.040
supposed to let your hand float up because it's a
link |
00:29:39.280
hypnosis script. So they, it's my colleague, David
link |
00:29:42.240
Spiegel in the script. He says, let your hand float
link |
00:29:45.600
up. I woke up an hour later and my hand was still
link |
00:29:48.000
floating. Wow. Yeah. And I was and I was completely
link |
00:29:50.720
relaxed. So hypnosis is just a matter of going
link |
00:29:55.600
deep relaxation, narrowing of context. And it's all
link |
00:29:58.800
self imposed. A lot of people think that hypnosis is
link |
00:30:00.880
like the stage thing with the pendant and the
link |
00:30:03.040
chicken, you know, people fucking like chickens.
link |
00:30:05.680
But real hypnosis is self hypnosis. You're learning
link |
00:30:09.200
to, it involves some shifts in the way that you,
link |
00:30:12.400
the hypnotic induction involves looking up, closing
link |
00:30:15.360
your eyes, slowly deep breath and then imagine
link |
00:30:17.840
yourself floating and people vary on a scale of
link |
00:30:21.920
about one to four for being the most easily
link |
00:30:24.480
hypnotized. There are a few people who it's very
link |
00:30:26.800
hard for them to allow themselves to go into
link |
00:30:29.200
these states. But for most people, they just,
link |
00:30:31.920
they're gone. And it's nice if you can have access
link |
00:30:35.440
to those states because when you come out of it,
link |
00:30:37.840
you feel amazing. You feel like you slept the whole
link |
00:30:40.400
night. At least most people report that. So
link |
00:30:42.640
refresh alert. Ready to go. I mean, basically,
link |
00:30:45.440
you're ready. Yeah, I know you have this
link |
00:30:48.000
interesting challenge coming up and I'm curious
link |
00:30:50.160
what you're going to do to reset in the hours.
link |
00:30:52.800
The frequency of running is every four hours. It's
link |
00:30:55.840
not going to allow you to get any more than
link |
00:30:58.000
a couple hours sleep in between. A couple hours. So
link |
00:30:59.680
we should tell to people, I'd be curious to get
link |
00:31:02.240
your thoughts and advice on it. I'm on March 5th
link |
00:31:06.880
running 48 miles with Mr. David Goggins. So four
link |
00:31:10.880
miles every four hours and people should join us.
link |
00:31:14.720
He's that mad man that's going to be live on
link |
00:31:17.680
Instagram starting at 8 p.m. Pacific on March 5th.
link |
00:31:23.280
So you're going to join him in person?
link |
00:31:25.040
In person. Undisclosed location. Undisclosed location.
link |
00:31:28.800
And I was trying to clarify, like, okay, so we're
link |
00:31:31.280
going to, like, there'll be like friendly people
link |
00:31:35.280
around or something. No, it's just me and him.
link |
00:31:37.360
Friendly people. I don't know. Like, I just feel
link |
00:31:40.720
it's very difficult to be with David alone in a room.
link |
00:31:44.800
I imagine his, I mean, I've done some work with David.
link |
00:31:47.600
His energy is infectious. That's an intense schedule.
link |
00:31:52.880
And the periodicity of those four hours, every four
link |
00:31:56.560
hours, four miles, means that there's no chance
link |
00:31:58.960
of catching an extended block of sleep.
link |
00:32:01.600
So it's about three hours that you have
link |
00:32:04.000
non exercising every time. And of course, it takes
link |
00:32:08.400
time to try to fall asleep and there's an intensity
link |
00:32:10.720
to the whole thing. I mean, it's probably impossible
link |
00:32:15.200
to get anything more than two hours of sleep
link |
00:32:18.640
if you wanted to. So the optimal thing is probably
link |
00:32:21.920
from the sound of it. I'd be curious to see what
link |
00:32:24.480
you think. But like, it's getting a few 90 minute naps.
link |
00:32:28.480
Yeah. Well, I thought about this a bit before we
link |
00:32:32.000
met up today. So I think there are two general approaches
link |
00:32:35.680
that could work. Neither one necessarily better than the other.
link |
00:32:39.360
One would be just to hammer through the whole thing,
link |
00:32:44.080
just to get your level of alertness and adrenaline
link |
00:32:47.360
ramped up so that you don't expect yourself to sleep.
link |
00:32:51.680
There are certain advantages there. One is a subjective
link |
00:32:54.160
kind of emotional advantage, which is if you can't sleep,
link |
00:32:56.640
you're not going to be stressed about that.
link |
00:32:58.000
Yes. And if you do fall asleep, it's a bonus.
link |
00:33:00.800
Yeah. Provided you wake up and you don't look up
link |
00:33:02.800
and you realize David's been out running for half an hour
link |
00:33:05.360
and you're behind, right? Chances are that's not the way
link |
00:33:08.160
that's not the way it'll go. You're set an alarm.
link |
00:33:09.840
So that's one approach. And I grabbed that from a couple of
link |
00:33:15.360
friends who were in the SEAL teams and they'll say that
link |
00:33:18.800
during Bud's, there's this infamous Hell Week and there's
link |
00:33:20.880
this five day, excuse me, definitely five days of no
link |
00:33:24.640
sleep, although there is a component where they offer a nap
link |
00:33:27.280
at one particular point. And a lot of people will say that
link |
00:33:32.000
it's worse to go down for that nap and then be woken up 20
link |
00:33:35.760
minutes later than to just stay up. So that's one option.
link |
00:33:39.520
Let's call it the full blitz hammer through option.
link |
00:33:43.280
And if you happen to fall asleep, you do.
link |
00:33:45.200
Bonus, yeah. It's a bonus. The other one would be to
link |
00:33:48.080
really anchor in these ultradian cycles. So coming back
link |
00:33:51.760
from a run, unless you're thoroughly exhausted, you're
link |
00:33:55.440
probably going to have a few minutes where you're going
link |
00:33:57.600
to want to stay awake. It's going to be hard to just
link |
00:33:59.440
immediately fall asleep and getting as much sleep as you
link |
00:34:03.600
can in the intervening periods provided that you guys
link |
00:34:06.880
aren't posting constantly or doing something else.
link |
00:34:09.520
There's a question of whether or not you want to nourish,
link |
00:34:11.680
whether or not you want to eat or not in that time.
link |
00:34:14.400
Anytime we put food in our gut, I don't care if it's meat
link |
00:34:17.760
or oatmeal or broccoli or cardboard, you're drawing blood
link |
00:34:23.600
into the gut and so you are going to divert some energy
link |
00:34:27.120
towards digestion and it's going to make you sleep.
link |
00:34:29.200
There's a reason why the rest and digest, the parasympathetic
link |
00:34:31.680
nervous system is called that. So you could decide that you
link |
00:34:35.760
were only going to sleep in certain blocks, in between
link |
00:34:38.240
certain blocks. That would be another way to think about
link |
00:34:40.960
this. Because I did this last year. I ran very slow. Some of
link |
00:34:47.520
it was walking. I was listening to audiobooks and one of the
link |
00:34:49.840
biggest mistakes I did is to overeat during that time.
link |
00:34:54.080
It was, I made the experience very unpleasant. So I have
link |
00:34:57.280
been considering basically eating almost nothing throughout
link |
00:35:00.480
the day. Being fasted will increase alertness because
link |
00:35:04.000
high levels of epinephrine in your system from fasting.
link |
00:35:06.880
You just think about fasting or being thirsty before you
link |
00:35:09.920
get exhausted. People always think, if I don't eat, I'm
link |
00:35:11.680
going to be tired. No, the energy that you derive from food
link |
00:35:15.680
is going to be used from glycogen and after a long
link |
00:35:19.040
storage and conversion process. So the food that you eat is
link |
00:35:22.000
going to consume energy to digest and so a lot of people
link |
00:35:25.600
feel better fasted and presumably throughout history
link |
00:35:29.200
people have fasted for long periods of time and had to
link |
00:35:31.280
stay up for two or three days and God forbid if a family
link |
00:35:34.960
member is sick, you can stay awake in the hospital without
link |
00:35:37.520
any trouble. So that alertness system, it's all mental.
link |
00:35:42.560
Actually, and then there's a third, so you could try and
link |
00:35:45.840
sleep or take care in between. Yes. Yeah. And then there's a
link |
00:35:49.200
third approach. Uh oh. Yeah. But I didn't come up with it.
link |
00:35:52.720
What is it? What David did. So I actually texted him
link |
00:35:56.480
earlier because I had a feeling that I heard that you
link |
00:35:58.960
were going to do this challenge. So I asked David.
link |
00:36:05.440
So these are David Goggins words, not mine. Okay.
link |
00:36:09.520
One, being organized is super important. Two, you want to
link |
00:36:15.280
waste as little time as possible. Three, you need to eat,
link |
00:36:19.760
sleep, and rehab in as little time as possible so you can
link |
00:36:23.280
sleep as much as possible. Interesting. By the way, this is
link |
00:36:26.000
the first time I'm reading this. Four, meal prep and
link |
00:36:30.720
gear prep, etc, are very important. That's consistent
link |
00:36:34.400
with everything I know about military. They don't leave
link |
00:36:37.840
too much to chance. Five, again, these are David's words.
link |
00:36:42.400
All that said, he's fucked on most of that because he'll be
link |
00:36:45.600
interviewing me before or after. I will also be
link |
00:36:48.160
interviewing him. Oh, shit. Five, long story short, the
link |
00:36:53.040
only thing that might help is a very special pill. Oh, this is
link |
00:36:56.080
interesting. They're called SIU pills. Hard to get, but I
link |
00:37:00.960
believe he can get them. SIU stands for suck it up. Tell him
link |
00:37:06.320
to grab his balls. He'll find those pills there. That's
link |
00:37:11.840
number six. All right. And then the last one, stay hard,
link |
00:37:15.120
brother. Stay hard, brother. Amen. I, you know, that was one
link |
00:37:19.360
of the other things that I think makes this challenging is
link |
00:37:22.880
that it'll be doing a podcast throughout. So, first of all,
link |
00:37:26.720
I'll do a long one before and after, but also I'll have to
link |
00:37:31.280
come up with things to talk to him about. So, like, it's a
link |
00:37:35.360
different thing to do something privately and then
link |
00:37:40.560
publicly. I know it doesn't seem that way, but like one of
link |
00:37:45.360
the hardest, the hardest thing I had to do last time was to
link |
00:37:49.760
turn on the camera and talk to the camera because I, last
link |
00:37:53.680
time I did it, I recorded every single time I did a leg, I
link |
00:37:57.840
recorded something I'm grateful for. It's just kind of
link |
00:38:00.960
unrelated. I'm not a fan of like talking about like how I'm
link |
00:38:04.160
feeling or how the run is going. I want to do something
link |
00:38:07.600
totally unrelated to the run and with the run as the
link |
00:38:11.280
background, you know, sort of something I'm grateful for,
link |
00:38:14.080
just any kind of interesting discussion. Gratitude. I mean,
link |
00:38:18.720
I hate the word hack. Like, oh, it's a dopamine hack or it's a
link |
00:38:22.000
serotonin. I don't like the word hack because A, it's
link |
00:38:24.560
disrespectful to hackers who do a real thing and B, a hack,
link |
00:38:29.040
it implies that it's some sort of trick that you're kind of
link |
00:38:33.360
gaming the system. You know, what works is mechanism, right?
link |
00:38:37.760
Biological mechanisms were designed to work and they were
link |
00:38:41.760
selected for to work under variable conditions. And as you
link |
00:38:46.080
know, and I know, and we have great appreciation for the fact
link |
00:38:49.120
that the nervous system was designed to be an adaptive
link |
00:38:51.440
machine so that you don't have to sleep eight hours every
link |
00:38:54.800
night. Yeah. You can do this thing. And things like
link |
00:38:59.040
gratitude allow you to tap into chemical resources and that's
link |
00:39:03.760
not a hack. The fact that being grateful for something
link |
00:39:06.720
external to the event happens to release serotonin and have a
link |
00:39:10.960
certain soothing effect or a dopamine and give you more
link |
00:39:14.400
epinephrine and let you go further. That's not a hack.
link |
00:39:17.840
That's actually what allowed the human machine to evolve to
link |
00:39:21.440
the point that it is now. Every time, you know, an inventor
link |
00:39:25.120
eventually created something that worked and felt great about
link |
00:39:28.400
it. You can imagine that the first, you know, air flight felt
link |
00:39:32.160
pretty awesome and motivated those people to go on and do
link |
00:39:35.120
more that they didn't just go on, you know, yawn and go have
link |
00:39:38.320
a beer. So, being able to access the genuine internal
link |
00:39:43.520
states of gratitude and reward works. You can't trick the
link |
00:39:47.840
system. You can't pretend that you're grateful for something,
link |
00:39:50.640
but if you can identify or attach yourself to some larger
link |
00:39:54.080
goal or something that's deeply gratifying to you or place it
link |
00:39:57.680
in service to a relative that passed away that you care a
link |
00:40:01.600
lot about, that's not a hack. That's accessing the deepest
link |
00:40:06.560
components of your nervous system and to steal your kind of
link |
00:40:10.080
lingo. Yeah, there's real beauty there, right? Yeah, but for an
link |
00:40:14.640
introvert like myself and I think David, I don't know if he's
link |
00:40:17.200
an introvert, but like he's not, despite the fact that he has
link |
00:40:22.400
written a great book and he communicates, he puts himself
link |
00:40:25.360
out there, he's not really a fan of communication. He's not,
link |
00:40:29.440
I don't know if he's energized by speaking his mind.
link |
00:40:33.600
I don't know enough to know. I mean, we've done a little bit of
link |
00:40:36.080
work together and we're in communication now and again. He's
link |
00:40:39.040
obviously super impressive. I don't know. It seems like he's a
link |
00:40:43.680
pretty private guy, so I don't have access to that.
link |
00:40:48.000
For me, I'll just speak to myself and I think David is the
link |
00:40:50.880
same, but I'll speak to myself that it was a hugely draining
link |
00:40:54.320
thing not to experience the gratitude, experiencing the
link |
00:40:58.480
gratitude just like you're saying is really energizing. It's
link |
00:41:03.600
a powerful thing. It's a, it's a, it can lift up your mood, but
link |
00:41:08.560
to turn on the camera and have to use words, which is very
link |
00:41:13.280
difficult to do, to explain like what you're feeling and do it
link |
00:41:18.880
in the way that you know a bunch of people will be watching,
link |
00:41:21.760
is really draining. And one of the things I'm concerned about
link |
00:41:26.320
that in this whole process, how do I keep my mind sharp
link |
00:41:32.160
while also keeping the performance, the physical
link |
00:41:34.960
performance sharp? And that's a little bit scary because
link |
00:41:38.800
talking to David like actual intellectually sharp, like
link |
00:41:43.520
thinking, being charismatic and as much as I can be,
link |
00:41:47.680
and like being so maintaining a sense of humor too,
link |
00:41:51.120
because I can be, I become with sleep deprivation, with exhaustion.
link |
00:41:55.600
You start being the Russian bear comes out. You start being
link |
00:41:59.200
such a, like you, I've become a David Goggins essentially,
link |
00:42:02.560
like, Oh, it makes you irritable. Sleep deprivation makes us
link |
00:42:05.520
irritable. Yeah. It's clear so that in the early part of the
link |
00:42:09.440
night, we get a higher percentage of those old
link |
00:42:11.520
tradian cycles are occupied by slow wave sleep, sometimes
link |
00:42:15.600
just called non REM sleep. And those early night sleep bouts
link |
00:42:21.200
are great for muscular repair and for certain forms of
link |
00:42:24.720
learning, but REM sleep, the rapid eye movement sleep,
link |
00:42:27.840
which it starts to accumulate and occupy more of those 90
link |
00:42:31.040
minute trade in cycles toward the late part of a sleep bout.
link |
00:42:34.800
So toward typically toward morning, but toward after you've
link |
00:42:38.560
been asleep a while. That's when you do the emotional
link |
00:42:41.680
processing. That's when we recover the ability to feel
link |
00:42:46.240
refreshed and not irritated by things. And if you deprive
link |
00:42:49.680
people of REM sleep, they become selectively bad at
link |
00:42:54.960
uncoupling the emotion from things that happened in the previous
link |
00:42:58.000
days. So the little things start to seem like big
link |
00:43:00.080
things. I always know I'm REM sleep deprived when I'm
link |
00:43:04.000
irritable. And when I look at like the word the and it
link |
00:43:07.760
doesn't look like it's spelled right. And I'm kind of pissed
link |
00:43:09.600
off about it. Like something's off. And we actually are
link |
00:43:12.080
becoming slightly psychotic when we're REM sleep deprived.
link |
00:43:16.800
You're not going to get a lot of REM sleep in this thing,
link |
00:43:18.720
except as you fatigue more, if you do fall asleep, you're
link |
00:43:21.040
going to drop more and more into REM so that those 90 minute
link |
00:43:23.680
cycles, you won't have to go through stage one, stage two,
link |
00:43:26.480
stage three, and then REM. You're just going to drop
link |
00:43:28.720
right into REM. So you can count on your system to
link |
00:43:31.600
compensate for you. But I think that just the knowledge
link |
00:43:35.920
that you tend to get irritable as the time goes on, just
link |
00:43:38.640
that third personing of yourself and that awareness,
link |
00:43:40.960
the observer, that can be very beneficial because
link |
00:43:44.000
there may be bouts during this event when you just should
link |
00:43:47.440
probably say nothing. And maybe you just smile and record
link |
00:43:53.120
or not smile or do whatever it is because you're going to
link |
00:43:56.400
be conserving energy. If it feels like a grind, that's
link |
00:43:59.040
epinephrine being released. That's epinephrine that you
link |
00:44:02.240
could devote to the physical effort. But humor is an
link |
00:44:05.360
amazing anecdote for this because it resets that it's
link |
00:44:09.200
that dopamine release that gives us that fresh
link |
00:44:12.080
perspective. And it's a real chemical thing. It's not a
link |
00:44:16.720
hack. It's not a trick. It's not a visualization. It's
link |
00:44:20.640
biology in action. Well, but I think the act of
link |
00:44:26.800
interviewing, of conversation in these processes, even if
link |
00:44:30.400
you don't want to do it, the right thing to do, even
link |
00:44:33.680
when you're feeling irritable, is just to do the third
link |
00:44:37.680
person view and be able to express with words that
link |
00:44:41.280
you're feeling irritable. Like express what you're going
link |
00:44:44.400
through. You know, use words which I hate doing. I
link |
00:44:49.040
honestly, I think my ultimate thing would be just to
link |
00:44:51.440
never say a single word to David Gagas and just go
link |
00:44:54.080
through hell. It doesn't matter what we do, but to do
link |
00:44:57.520
it quietly, to also express it. That's my ultimate hell.
link |
00:45:01.680
And I think that's definitely going to be, if I know
link |
00:45:03.760
David at all, he's going to try and find your buttons.
link |
00:45:06.560
Like he's going to, I mean, he, even though he knows he
link |
00:45:09.840
can complete this and I believe that he trusts that
link |
00:45:12.720
you can complete it too. I believe you can, you will
link |
00:45:15.360
complete it. You know you will complete it. Right.
link |
00:45:17.280
There's no question about that, but he's not going to
link |
00:45:19.200
make it easier for you. He's going to make it harder.
link |
00:45:21.200
Well, I'm afraid. So I'm like, you know, it's very
link |
00:45:24.240
difficult for me. So 48 miles is not easy. I have not
link |
00:45:27.280
been training that much. I'm now ramping up, but it's
link |
00:45:30.640
not like going to kill me. We'll see what happens.
link |
00:45:34.880
Of course, for him, he might always get bored because I
link |
00:45:37.600
think the 48 miles for him is easy. I think I don't
link |
00:45:42.720
know that. I don't know that ever gets easy. I have a
link |
00:45:45.920
friend, Casey Courgel, who works with David. He does some
link |
00:45:50.480
physical rehab type stuff with him and he took Casey on a
link |
00:45:54.800
50 mile and Casey said, it's like 16 miles into it. He was
link |
00:45:58.240
just like, he hit his wall, but he found it. They find it
link |
00:46:03.440
to get, you know, you find that portal. There is one
link |
00:46:06.640
thing I want to mention. There's some very good
link |
00:46:08.720
physiology that can perhaps support the actual running
link |
00:46:11.920
effort part. These are very new data. We have a study
link |
00:46:15.680
going on with David Spiegel at Stanford looking at how
link |
00:46:18.240
different patterns of breathing can affect heart rate
link |
00:46:20.720
variability. Heart rate variability is good. There's
link |
00:46:23.520
this interesting mechanism that I think most people
link |
00:46:25.920
might not realize, but that medical students learned
link |
00:46:28.240
that your breathing and your heart rate and your brain
link |
00:46:31.520
are in this really remarkable interplay. It goes like
link |
00:46:33.840
this. When you inhale, this isn't breath work. We're
link |
00:46:36.400
not going to do breath work, but when you inhale, the
link |
00:46:39.360
diaphragm moves down. The heart gets a little bigger
link |
00:46:43.280
because there's a little more space in the thoracic cavity.
link |
00:46:45.680
As a consequence, blood flows a little bit more slowly
link |
00:46:49.120
through that larger volume. There's a category of
link |
00:46:51.680
neurons, the synomatrial node, that sees that, that
link |
00:46:55.200
recognizes that slower rate through that larger
link |
00:46:59.120
volume, sends a signal to the brainstem, and the
link |
00:47:01.040
brainstem sends a signal back to the heart to speed
link |
00:47:03.040
the heart up. Every time you inhale, you're in
link |
00:47:05.360
speeding the heart up. When you exhale, the diaphragm
link |
00:47:07.840
moves up, the heart gets a little smaller, the volume
link |
00:47:09.840
is smaller, blood flows more quickly through the
link |
00:47:11.760
heart, signal sent up to the brain, and the brain
link |
00:47:14.400
sends a signal back to slow the heart down. This is
link |
00:47:18.080
the basis of heart rate variability. At any point,
link |
00:47:21.520
if you feel like your heart is racing and you feel
link |
00:47:23.600
like you're working too hard per unit of effort,
link |
00:47:27.360
focus on making your exhales longer or more
link |
00:47:30.720
intense than your inhales. If ever you feel like
link |
00:47:33.440
you're truly flagging, you do not have the energy
link |
00:47:35.920
to get up. It's like, okay, it's time to go and
link |
00:47:38.000
you're exhausted. You want to draw more oxygen into
link |
00:47:42.000
the system, get your heart rate going faster. Now,
link |
00:47:44.560
some people want to hear this, probably thinking,
link |
00:47:46.000
well, this is really obvious, but there's so much
link |
00:47:47.840
out there about breath work and how to breathe and
link |
00:47:49.760
all this stuff, but no one talks about how to do it
link |
00:47:51.280
in real time while you're exerting effort.
link |
00:47:53.760
So this is something like almost like second by
link |
00:47:56.800
second, you can adjust things just in real time
link |
00:48:00.560
based on how you're feeling, but based on the
link |
00:48:02.480
heart rate, the experience of the heart rate.
link |
00:48:04.880
That's right. So one thing that could be very
link |
00:48:07.520
efficient and we're doing some work with
link |
00:48:09.200
athletes now, these are unpublished data, but
link |
00:48:11.840
if you, while you're running, if you want to get
link |
00:48:14.960
into a nice cadence of heart rate variability,
link |
00:48:18.240
do double inhales while you're running. What
link |
00:48:23.120
this will do is that when you do the double
link |
00:48:24.640
inhale has the effect of reopening the
link |
00:48:27.040
avioli of the lungs. Your lungs are filled with
link |
00:48:29.760
tons of little sacs when you, they tend to
link |
00:48:32.240
collapse as you fatigue and carbon dioxide
link |
00:48:35.440
builds up in the bloodstream and that's when
link |
00:48:36.720
we start getting stress. If you've ever been
link |
00:48:38.320
sprinting and you start getting beat and
link |
00:48:39.840
you're going as hard as you can, what you
link |
00:48:41.680
really need to do is double inhale and
link |
00:48:43.280
reinflight these sacs and the lungs and
link |
00:48:45.040
then offload a lot of carbon dioxide.
link |
00:48:47.040
So when you're at a steady cadence and
link |
00:48:48.560
you're feeling good, double inhale, exhale.
link |
00:48:50.960
Double inhale, exhale is a terrific way to
link |
00:48:54.320
breathe while you're in ongoing effort.
link |
00:48:56.800
By the way, any recommendations or
link |
00:48:59.360
differences in nose or mouth breathing?
link |
00:49:02.960
So nasal breathing, there's a lot of
link |
00:49:05.280
excitement now obviously about nasal
link |
00:49:06.640
breathing because of James Nestor's book,
link |
00:49:08.320
Breath. There was also, if people are
link |
00:49:10.560
going to know about that book, that I do
link |
00:49:12.400
feel like out of respect for my
link |
00:49:15.040
colleagues. There was a book by Sandra
link |
00:49:17.840
Kahn and Paul Erlich at Stanford, both
link |
00:49:19.840
professors at Stanford, with a forward
link |
00:49:21.840
by Jared Diamond and Robert Sapolsky.
link |
00:49:24.400
So some heavy hitters in this book and
link |
00:49:26.400
the book is called Jaws, A Hidden Epidemic.
link |
00:49:28.800
And it's all about how nasal breathing is
link |
00:49:30.720
better for us, especially kids, than
link |
00:49:33.760
being mouth breathers. Under most
link |
00:49:35.680
conditions, for sake of improving
link |
00:49:37.760
immunity, it turns out there's a
link |
00:49:38.880
microbiome in the nose, like all sorts
link |
00:49:40.720
of good stuff about nasal breathing
link |
00:49:42.400
preferentially. But when we exercise,
link |
00:49:46.320
you can do pure nasal breathing, but the
link |
00:49:48.800
problem is once you get up to kind of
link |
00:49:50.480
third and fourth and fifth gear effort,
link |
00:49:52.640
you can't nasal breathe and be at
link |
00:49:54.240
maximum capacity unless you've been
link |
00:49:55.920
training it for a very long time. So I
link |
00:49:57.600
would say double inhale through the
link |
00:49:58.880
nose, offload through the mouth. So
link |
00:50:00.800
double inhale, exhale while you're in
link |
00:50:02.800
steady effort. And then if you really
link |
00:50:04.640
feel like you need to gas it and you're
link |
00:50:06.080
pushing, the data show that then just
link |
00:50:09.040
use whatever's there, right? Just go
link |
00:50:11.040
into kind of default mode because
link |
00:50:13.760
bringing too much concentration to
link |
00:50:15.280
something is also going to spend up an
link |
00:50:17.120
efferent. The goal is to get into that,
link |
00:50:19.360
I don't like the word, but the flow
link |
00:50:20.880
state where you're not thinking too
link |
00:50:22.560
much, you're just in exertion. So these
link |
00:50:25.280
are things that can help in the
link |
00:50:26.880
transitions, but I don't think there's
link |
00:50:29.600
any secret breathing technique. You
link |
00:50:31.280
know, anyone who's been in the SEAL teams
link |
00:50:32.720
will kind of, you know, they'll tell you
link |
00:50:34.080
like, there's no breathing technique,
link |
00:50:36.480
right? There's tools that you can
link |
00:50:39.280
look to from time to time and these
link |
00:50:41.520
double inhale, exhales can be great for
link |
00:50:43.200
setting heart rate ability in very
link |
00:50:45.200
quickly and getting into a steady cadence
link |
00:50:46.960
while you're exercising. But if there's a
link |
00:50:48.720
sprint, like if suddenly you guys are
link |
00:50:50.160
sprinting, ditch the double inhale,
link |
00:50:52.880
exhale and just sprint. One thing you
link |
00:50:55.600
mentioned, he's probably going to push
link |
00:50:57.600
my buttons. It's a good place to ask a
link |
00:50:59.600
question about anger. So I'll probably
link |
00:51:02.000
get pissed off at him at some point,
link |
00:51:04.480
I'm guessing. And do you have
link |
00:51:08.400
thoughts from a scientific perspective
link |
00:51:11.920
or also just the personal philosophical
link |
00:51:13.920
perspective about the role of anger and
link |
00:51:15.920
all of this in managing alertness,
link |
00:51:18.640
performance? I think about this a lot
link |
00:51:21.840
because there's so much out there about
link |
00:51:24.080
how important it is to do things from a
link |
00:51:25.760
place of love, you know. I tweet about
link |
00:51:29.280
it all the time. And I think love is
link |
00:51:31.360
powerful, right? You know, it is
link |
00:51:33.440
interesting that autonomic arousal
link |
00:51:35.120
alertness, let's just make use simple
link |
00:51:36.720
language, alertness physiologically
link |
00:51:39.520
looks identical for love and
link |
00:51:42.240
excitement as it does for anger and
link |
00:51:45.840
frustration and wanting to defeat your
link |
00:51:48.080
opponent or whoever that opponent
link |
00:51:50.720
happens to be. They're identical except
link |
00:51:53.600
that the love component does tend to be
link |
00:51:56.480
associated with the release of neuro
link |
00:51:57.840
chemicals of the serotonin and
link |
00:51:59.680
dopamine type that do have this
link |
00:52:01.760
replenishment component. I don't think
link |
00:52:04.400
one wants to be in constant anger and
link |
00:52:06.480
friction, but I mean, I'll come clean a
link |
00:52:10.080
bit. There have been portions of my
link |
00:52:11.120
career where some of my best work, my
link |
00:52:13.040
extra two hours, my ability to nail a
link |
00:52:16.000
really hard deadline or problem has come
link |
00:52:18.080
from not wanting to get out competed or
link |
00:52:21.440
for wanting to prove something.
link |
00:52:24.720
These days, I'm not oriented from
link |
00:52:28.400
that place toward my work quite as
link |
00:52:30.160
often, but I think we should be really
link |
00:52:32.560
honest. Anger is powerful. It provided
link |
00:52:35.040
it's channeled. It's very, very powerful
link |
00:52:37.680
and it can give you a ton of fuel and
link |
00:52:40.480
gas to push when otherwise you tap.
link |
00:52:44.640
Yeah, Joe Rogan has, aside from being a
link |
00:52:48.080
fan of his, has been an inspiration to
link |
00:52:50.880
sort of be, to have a kind of loving
link |
00:52:54.640
view on the world in the way you
link |
00:52:56.080
approach the world, to me, so I've
link |
00:52:58.960
tended to want to approach the world
link |
00:53:01.280
that way, but in the same way David
link |
00:53:03.280
Goggins has been an inspiration to like
link |
00:53:07.840
yeah, be angry at stuff and use it as
link |
00:53:12.160
fuel. Like he almost conjures up
link |
00:53:15.760
artificial demons in his mind just so
link |
00:53:17.920
he can fight them. You know, but at the
link |
00:53:21.360
same time I tried that because I did a
link |
00:53:23.120
challenge in the summer of a world for
link |
00:53:26.080
30 days. I was doing a lot of pushups
link |
00:53:27.840
and it was over time. It was counter
link |
00:53:32.080
productive for me. I found that it was
link |
00:53:35.760
easier to just, like the roller coaster
link |
00:53:40.320
that the emotional, like being angry at
link |
00:53:42.960
stuff takes you can also be exhausting.
link |
00:53:46.080
Oh, absolutely. And it can take you down,
link |
00:53:48.640
like the the ups of it are good, but the
link |
00:53:51.280
downs are bad. And what I found is
link |
00:53:54.800
better to get, to use it as a boost
link |
00:53:56.880
every once in a while, but mostly to get
link |
00:53:58.880
lost in the, you're talking about the
link |
00:54:01.280
breath work, the, like getting lost in
link |
00:54:04.320
the ritual of it, like the, the beat,
link |
00:54:06.480
like that, as opposed to going on the
link |
00:54:08.320
big roller coasters of emotion.
link |
00:54:10.720
Yeah, this brings us into the realm of
link |
00:54:12.640
neuroendocrinology. There's a
link |
00:54:14.880
fascinating relationship between the
link |
00:54:16.400
hormone system and the nervous system.
link |
00:54:18.240
And, you know, hormones work in general on
link |
00:54:21.120
slower time scales. The definition of
link |
00:54:22.560
hormone is something, is a chemical
link |
00:54:23.840
released at one location in the body,
link |
00:54:25.360
goes in and acts at multiple locations
link |
00:54:27.280
far away and within the body. Pheromone
link |
00:54:29.360
would be between two bodies. Neuro
link |
00:54:32.160
chemicals like dopamine and serotonin
link |
00:54:33.840
tend to work a little more quickly. There
link |
00:54:35.120
are hormones like adrenaline and
link |
00:54:36.800
cortisol that can work very fast, but
link |
00:54:38.880
here I'm referring mainly to
link |
00:54:41.200
testosterone, prolactin. Prolactin tends
link |
00:54:44.480
to be in men and women tends to make
link |
00:54:45.920
people kind of lazy and want to take
link |
00:54:48.240
care of young. It tends to throw down
link |
00:54:50.480
body fat so we can stay up late. It's
link |
00:54:52.880
secreted in response to having children.
link |
00:54:54.800
These are all in humans and in animals.
link |
00:54:58.080
There's a very interesting relationship
link |
00:54:59.760
between testosterone and dopamine
link |
00:55:03.920
that speaks directly to what we're
link |
00:55:06.480
talking about now. So dopamine and
link |
00:55:09.760
testosterone are closely related in the
link |
00:55:12.320
pituitary system and obviously
link |
00:55:15.200
testosterone comes from the adrenals and
link |
00:55:16.800
from the testes. But the major
link |
00:55:20.400
effect of testosterone is to make
link |
00:55:22.400
effort feel good. That's what
link |
00:55:25.120
testosterone does. It has other effects
link |
00:55:27.040
too, right? Reproductive effects,
link |
00:55:28.640
androgenizing parts of the body, etc.
link |
00:55:31.520
But it makes effort feel good. The
link |
00:55:34.640
testosterone molecule is synthesized
link |
00:55:36.640
from cholesterol. Cholesterol can
link |
00:55:39.040
either be made into cortisol, a stress
link |
00:55:41.520
hormone, or testosterone, but not both.
link |
00:55:43.760
So you have a limited amount of
link |
00:55:45.360
cholesterol and it gets
link |
00:55:47.360
diverted towards stress or this
link |
00:55:50.160
pathway where effort feels good.
link |
00:55:53.440
That's the pathway you want to get into.
link |
00:55:55.200
The anger pathway, if we were to just
link |
00:55:56.960
kind of play a mind experiment here,
link |
00:56:00.160
the anger eventually is going to divert
link |
00:56:02.720
more of that cholesterol molecule to
link |
00:56:04.960
cortisol and stress and you will be
link |
00:56:06.960
slowly depleting testosterone. Now going
link |
00:56:09.120
into this, you'll have plenty of
link |
00:56:11.760
testosterone. But after a couple days,
link |
00:56:13.200
there have been very interesting studies
link |
00:56:14.800
showing that testosterone doesn't
link |
00:56:16.480
necessarily drop with sleep
link |
00:56:18.000
deprivation. That's a bit of a myth.
link |
00:56:20.240
You need it to replenish testosterone.
link |
00:56:21.920
You need sleep to replenish testosterone
link |
00:56:23.440
eventually. But the real question is,
link |
00:56:25.680
are you enjoying what you're doing?
link |
00:56:27.840
And here, some of the major work on
link |
00:56:31.040
this was done by Duncan French, who
link |
00:56:33.440
runs the UFC Training Center. He did his
link |
00:56:35.200
PhD at Yukon Stores, did a really
link |
00:56:38.160
beautiful PhD thesis looking at the
link |
00:56:40.320
relationship between stress hormones
link |
00:56:42.000
testosterone and dopamine. Really
link |
00:56:44.720
interesting work. And the takeaway
link |
00:56:47.760
from all of this is if you can just
link |
00:56:50.000
convince yourself or ideally if you can
link |
00:56:52.400
just enjoy yourself, you're going to
link |
00:56:55.200
maintain or maybe even increase
link |
00:56:56.880
testosterone stores, which will make
link |
00:56:59.360
effort feel good. And to me, aside from
link |
00:57:02.320
neuroplasticity where everything becomes
link |
00:57:04.080
automatic after this experience, to me
link |
00:57:07.680
that's the holy grail. When effort feels
link |
00:57:09.840
good, life just gets way better. And
link |
00:57:12.640
we're not talking about achieving the
link |
00:57:14.080
reward. I'm not talking about the end of
link |
00:57:15.840
this thing. I'm talking about the process
link |
00:57:17.680
of it feeling really good.
link |
00:57:19.440
Yeah, there is a magic to, I don't know
link |
00:57:23.520
if you can comment on this, but I find
link |
00:57:25.360
myself being able to, if I just say I'm
link |
00:57:29.200
feeling good, like this old hack of
link |
00:57:32.480
like smiling while you're running. If I
link |
00:57:35.520
just tell myself, I'm feeling really
link |
00:57:37.280
good right now. No matter how I'm
link |
00:57:39.440
actually feeling, I'll start feeling way
link |
00:57:41.600
better. And the whole thing, there's a
link |
00:57:43.520
cascading effect that allows me to
link |
00:57:47.040
maximize the effort. It's quite
link |
00:57:49.200
fascinating. It's weird.
link |
00:57:51.360
Hormones are powerful. The relationship
link |
00:57:53.360
between thoughts and hormones and these
link |
00:57:55.120
physiological things is enormous. I had a
link |
00:57:57.280
colleague that a few years ago, he was
link |
00:57:59.040
dying of pancreatic cancer. And I was
link |
00:58:02.000
interviewing him just because he's an
link |
00:58:04.000
important figure in our community and I
link |
00:58:05.760
was a friend. And there was one day where
link |
00:58:08.480
he told me, he said, you know, I don't
link |
00:58:10.400
want to make it past the new year. I
link |
00:58:12.400
just, and it was crushing for me to
link |
00:58:14.240
hear. And I knew that he had been on
link |
00:58:16.160
some androgen therapy for a whole
link |
00:58:19.200
set of other things. And I said, you
link |
00:58:21.040
know, have you taken your androgen
link |
00:58:24.160
cream? And he was like, no, I haven't
link |
00:58:25.440
done it. Go get it for me. I have this
link |
00:58:27.600
on film. He takes it, he puts the
link |
00:58:29.280
androgen cream on. I'm not suggesting
link |
00:58:30.720
people take androgens, by the way. 10
link |
00:58:33.200
minutes later, he says, you know what? I
link |
00:58:35.760
think I want to live into the new year.
link |
00:58:37.360
And I'm going to write 12 letters of
link |
00:58:38.960
recommendation. He went to MIT, by the
link |
00:58:40.560
way. He said, I'm going to write 12
link |
00:58:42.480
letters of recommendation. And he did.
link |
00:58:44.640
And so there's something about these
link |
00:58:46.240
molecules that in an ancient way, in
link |
00:58:49.440
all organisms, all mammals as far as we
link |
00:58:51.680
know, are linked to the will to live.
link |
00:58:54.560
They're linked to effort and making
link |
00:58:56.480
effort feel good, which has been
link |
00:58:57.920
fundamental to the evolution of our
link |
00:58:59.600
species. I always say, people think that
link |
00:59:01.760
the opposite of testosterone is estrogen,
link |
00:59:03.840
but it's not. The opposite of
link |
00:59:05.440
testosterone is prolactin, which makes us
link |
00:59:07.920
feel quiescent and not in pursuit of
link |
00:59:10.080
things, et cetera. Testosterone makes
link |
00:59:13.200
effort feel good. Estrogen makes
link |
00:59:15.520
emotions feel okay.
link |
00:59:19.040
And they are in mixed amounts in
link |
00:59:22.960
people, as I say, of all chromosomal
link |
00:59:25.200
backgrounds. Yeah. I mean, you also
link |
00:59:27.600
mentioned fasting potentially through
link |
00:59:29.680
this two day thing. It'd be cool to get
link |
00:59:32.800
your thoughts about fasting in general.
link |
00:59:34.960
Do you think on a personal level and at
link |
00:59:38.800
a higher sort of level of studies that
link |
00:59:41.120
you're aware of and physiology and so on,
link |
00:59:44.400
what do you think about intermittent
link |
00:59:45.760
fasting of like not eating for 16 hours
link |
00:59:48.640
and then having an eight hour window or
link |
00:59:51.760
something I've been doing a lot recently,
link |
00:59:53.360
which is eating only once a day. So
link |
00:59:56.800
that's 24 hour fast, I guess, one meal a
link |
00:59:59.600
day or something I've been thinking
link |
01:00:03.840
about doing, haven't done yet, of doing
link |
01:00:06.320
like 72 hours, and some people do like
link |
01:00:08.880
five day fasts in general. So this will
link |
01:00:11.760
be, for this particular run, will be a
link |
01:00:14.400
48 hour fast if I don't eat at all. What
link |
01:00:17.840
do you think about that for performance,
link |
01:00:19.600
for mood, for all those kinds of things?
link |
01:00:21.760
I can speak a little bit to the science
link |
01:00:23.600
and a little bit of my own experience
link |
01:00:25.200
and then some anecdotes of people that
link |
01:00:27.040
have done very hard, very long duration
link |
01:00:29.040
things and what they've told me. So I
link |
01:00:30.320
just want to make sure I'm separating
link |
01:00:31.680
those out so people know my sourcing.
link |
01:00:34.000
I think now none of this is about the
link |
01:00:36.480
actual long term nutritional benefits
link |
01:00:38.640
of one thing or the other. But if you
link |
01:00:40.720
look at the science on intermittent
link |
01:00:42.000
fasting, it's pretty remarkable. Before
link |
01:00:45.280
I was at Stanford, my lab was in San
link |
01:00:46.640
Diego, one of my colleagues was such in
link |
01:00:48.160
Panda at the Salk is phenomenal
link |
01:00:51.840
biologist and researcher, wrote a book
link |
01:00:53.600
called The Circadian Code. It's very,
link |
01:00:55.200
very good and kind of popularized
link |
01:00:57.440
intermittent fasting, although there
link |
01:00:58.800
were others that had talked about this
link |
01:01:01.280
before. Ori Hofmeckler talked about the
link |
01:01:03.120
warrior diet. People probably might not
link |
01:01:05.520
know who Ori is, but he's sort of the
link |
01:01:07.840
originator of this business of
link |
01:01:10.160
intermittent fasting. He didn't want to
link |
01:01:11.440
day or limited. Anyway, Sachin has
link |
01:01:13.440
published papers, peer reviewed papers
link |
01:01:15.920
in very good journals like Cell and
link |
01:01:18.080
elsewhere showing that limiting the
link |
01:01:20.880
consumption of calories to eight, four,
link |
01:01:24.720
six or eight or even 10 hours of every
link |
01:01:27.040
24 hour cycle and keeping that more or
link |
01:01:30.640
less correlated with the light when
link |
01:01:33.360
the sun is out leads to less liver
link |
01:01:36.640
disease, improved metabolic markers, less
link |
01:01:39.760
body fat, etc. In the mouse studies, they
link |
01:01:42.560
even gave the mice the choice to eat
link |
01:01:43.920
whatever they wanted as much as they
link |
01:01:45.440
wanted as long as they restricted it to
link |
01:01:46.720
a certain period within the 24 hour
link |
01:01:49.040
cycle. They did great. They
link |
01:01:51.680
maintained a healthy weight or even
link |
01:01:52.880
lost weight when they took the same
link |
01:01:54.480
amount of food and they stretched it out
link |
01:01:56.080
across the 24, the entire 24 hour cycle.
link |
01:01:58.160
So this is eating every hour or two
link |
01:01:59.680
hours. The animals got fat and sick.
link |
01:02:02.160
So it's pretty remarkable data. How much
link |
01:02:04.720
of that translates to humans isn't
link |
01:02:06.160
clear, but one thing that's really
link |
01:02:07.760
clear with humans is adherence. We
link |
01:02:10.240
could talk a lot about nutrition and
link |
01:02:11.920
some of the problems with the studies
link |
01:02:13.600
on nutrition is that what people will
link |
01:02:15.040
do in a laboratory is often hard to do
link |
01:02:16.880
in the real world. Low carbohydrate
link |
01:02:19.440
diets, because they tend to
link |
01:02:22.240
focus on foods that have high amino
link |
01:02:24.560
acid content like meats, generally
link |
01:02:27.360
people are less hungry on those than
link |
01:02:29.760
they are on calorie matched diets of
link |
01:02:32.880
fruits and vegetables and carbohydrates
link |
01:02:34.640
because when the insulin goes up, you
link |
01:02:36.800
get hungry and you want to eat more. So
link |
01:02:38.560
this is not a push for carnivore or a
link |
01:02:40.720
push against one thing or the other.
link |
01:02:42.400
It's just there are a lot of factors.
link |
01:02:45.040
But we know for sure that when you're
link |
01:02:48.400
fasted or when you have low amounts of
link |
01:02:50.800
carbohydrate in your system, complex
link |
01:02:52.560
carbohydrate, your alertness is going to
link |
01:02:54.480
go up. Fast increases
link |
01:02:56.480
increases alertness and epinephrine
link |
01:02:59.920
for the sole purpose of getting you to
link |
01:03:01.440
go out and find food. Can you imagine if
link |
01:03:03.200
our ancestors got hungry and they were
link |
01:03:05.200
like, oh I'm too tired to go find food?
link |
01:03:07.120
We wouldn't be here. You'd be like robots
link |
01:03:08.960
or something like one of your
link |
01:03:10.240
alien buddies will be like running
link |
01:03:12.800
the planet. So I think that if you want
link |
01:03:15.840
to be alert, fasting or keeping
link |
01:03:18.400
complex carbohydrates to a minimum is
link |
01:03:20.480
very valuable. If you want to sleep and
link |
01:03:23.120
you want to be sleepy, ingesting foods
link |
01:03:25.440
that have a lot of tryptophan, which is
link |
01:03:27.600
the precursor to serotonin, so complex
link |
01:03:29.360
carbohydrates like rice and grains,
link |
01:03:31.200
turkey, white meats, those things do
link |
01:03:33.280
create a sense of sleepiness. However,
link |
01:03:35.200
there is a caveat and this is one
link |
01:03:37.200
problem with the once a meal, once a day
link |
01:03:39.280
meal, is that anytime you have a lot of
link |
01:03:42.000
food in the gut, you're increasing
link |
01:03:43.840
sleepiness because you're diverting
link |
01:03:45.520
blood to the gut. It's going to trigger
link |
01:03:47.280
the vagus to signal to the brain to
link |
01:03:50.000
shut down your system and utilize those
link |
01:03:52.480
nutrients, digest and utilize those
link |
01:03:54.480
nutrients. So I've done the once a day
link |
01:03:57.440
eating thing. The problem is I eat so
link |
01:03:59.280
much in that meal that I'm exhausted
link |
01:04:02.080
and so it doesn't always lend itself
link |
01:04:04.080
well to the schedule.
link |
01:04:05.600
But so in a six or eight hour eating
link |
01:04:07.520
block for me is a little bit better.
link |
01:04:09.920
I do eat carbohydrates. I'm probably one of the few
link |
01:04:11.920
people left on the west coast that
link |
01:04:13.200
actually consumes carbohydrates and
link |
01:04:14.720
will say that out loud. I don't know
link |
01:04:15.840
people eat carbs anymore. That's weird.
link |
01:04:17.760
They don't. Or do you even find carbs these days?
link |
01:04:19.920
I like oatmeal. I like rice. The other
link |
01:04:22.000
time is if people are doing very high
link |
01:04:23.680
intensity weight training, they need to
link |
01:04:24.960
replenish glycogen. On the alertness
link |
01:04:27.280
side, I do feel like it's probably
link |
01:04:29.200
person independent. For me, alertness,
link |
01:04:32.480
being alert makes my life better in a
link |
01:04:35.120
lot of ways more than just the
link |
01:04:37.360
alertness itself.
link |
01:04:38.640
Like for example, one of the things that
link |
01:04:40.800
discovered with fasting is that when I
link |
01:04:44.160
was training twice a day in Jiu Jitsu,
link |
01:04:46.400
for example, I'm competing and so on, I
link |
01:04:48.880
performed way better at things that you
link |
01:04:51.600
traditionally would say you need carbs
link |
01:04:53.520
for, which is explosive movements and all
link |
01:04:55.440
that.
link |
01:04:56.720
I don't know if I actually perform better
link |
01:05:00.080
in terms of like the force of the
link |
01:05:03.680
explosion, the explosiveness. What I do
link |
01:05:07.360
know is the alertness resulted in me
link |
01:05:10.800
doing the technique more precisely.
link |
01:05:13.360
That's the dopamine and epinephrine
link |
01:05:14.960
system in action. There are some
link |
01:05:18.720
other just purely physical aspects to
link |
01:05:23.120
one diet versus the other that can be
link |
01:05:25.360
complicated. If you're ingesting
link |
01:05:26.640
carbohydrates, complex carbohydrates,
link |
01:05:28.560
you're going to replenish glycogen,
link |
01:05:29.760
which is great, but they also tend to be
link |
01:05:31.920
bulky and fibrous. I've never rolled
link |
01:05:34.400
Jiu Jitsu, but running when you have a
link |
01:05:36.400
lot of bulky, fibrous food in your
link |
01:05:38.400
gut or in your intestine, it can be a
link |
01:05:40.640
barrier. It can be uncomfortable. Some
link |
01:05:42.960
people do really well on low carbohydrate,
link |
01:05:45.200
meat rich diets because they're just not
link |
01:05:47.360
as bloated. They're not carrying as much
link |
01:05:49.680
water and other stuff. Carbohydrate
link |
01:05:51.840
carries a lot of water molecules with it.
link |
01:05:54.000
There are aspects to being able to
link |
01:05:55.600
train and being really explosive because
link |
01:05:56.880
you feel light. One anecdote that
link |
01:05:58.960
really, again, I'm not encouraging any
link |
01:06:01.440
one particular kind of diet, but I have a
link |
01:06:02.800
friend who was in the SEAL teams,
link |
01:06:07.040
happened to know a number of people in
link |
01:06:08.160
that community. He told me that he did
link |
01:06:09.760
this very long fast. It was a fast that
link |
01:06:12.240
I think you get to eat a little bit of
link |
01:06:14.080
soup or broth and there's like a bar
link |
01:06:16.320
or something, but it's like a nine day
link |
01:06:17.840
thing. He's a very strong athlete.
link |
01:06:21.120
He said that on day six or seven, he was
link |
01:06:24.960
running up some hills or something while
link |
01:06:27.360
he was on deployment. He felt
link |
01:06:30.800
amazing. He had kind of hit this other
link |
01:06:32.640
level. He was somebody who had boxed in
link |
01:06:34.000
the Naval Academy. He was somebody who
link |
01:06:37.840
knows and knew high output and he felt
link |
01:06:40.720
like he discovered the 13th floor,
link |
01:06:43.600
that there was another floor to this
link |
01:06:45.520
performance space that he hadn't
link |
01:06:47.200
experienced except while he had fasted.
link |
01:06:50.400
He said that that was a remarkable
link |
01:06:52.160
clarity of mind, energy. It's a little bit
link |
01:06:54.480
of what you described. He described a
link |
01:06:55.920
kind of suppleness and explosiveness.
link |
01:06:58.000
So there's probably something there on which day.
link |
01:07:01.120
Once he was in the fifth or sixth day of the
link |
01:07:03.600
fast. See, this is the thing. I've never
link |
01:07:05.200
been there on the second, third, fourth,
link |
01:07:08.240
fifth day, that kind of thing, but when I
link |
01:07:10.640
just don't eat for 20 hours, many times
link |
01:07:15.760
through my training, the clarity, it's like
link |
01:07:19.200
you feel like everyone is moving super
link |
01:07:21.680
slowly and you're able to like dominate
link |
01:07:25.040
people you weren't able to before. It's
link |
01:07:26.960
like you might have slipped into or
link |
01:07:29.600
switched over rather into full ketosis
link |
01:07:32.400
and ketogenic diets done properly can be
link |
01:07:35.360
great for people. The problem is if you do
link |
01:07:37.040
it wrong, you can really mess it up. I
link |
01:07:38.560
tried it once and I basically got
link |
01:07:40.160
psoriasis. I thought my scalp was gonna
link |
01:07:41.840
fall off. I was like sloughing off all
link |
01:07:43.680
this and then I stopped and I was
link |
01:07:45.680
taking the liquid ketones and then
link |
01:07:47.360
all of a sudden I felt better again.
link |
01:07:48.880
But I was told that I just did it wrong.
link |
01:07:52.000
Yes, that's right. So I think there's a
link |
01:07:54.240
right way and a wrong way and you have to
link |
01:07:56.000
get it right. Definitely and so I've
link |
01:07:57.920
experimented quite a bit with keto 2 to
link |
01:08:00.080
see how my body feels and doing it the
link |
01:08:01.840
right way and following all the
link |
01:08:03.040
instructions. There's definitely a huge
link |
01:08:05.200
difference that like for example one of
link |
01:08:08.480
the things I discovered everyone know
link |
01:08:09.840
we said this and but I tried this
link |
01:08:13.120
recently over the past year as I started
link |
01:08:16.080
drinking when I don't feel great if I'm
link |
01:08:19.040
fasting bone broth, chicken bone broth.
link |
01:08:22.880
And for some reason like magically it
link |
01:08:24.640
could be, this is the other thing, the
link |
01:08:26.720
mind I don't know, but it makes me feel
link |
01:08:29.520
really good. Well it could be the salt.
link |
01:08:32.720
So I mean neurons, the action potential
link |
01:08:35.040
neurons as you know is sodium is rushing
link |
01:08:36.800
into the cell. You need enough extra cell
link |
01:08:38.480
or sodium in order for your brain and
link |
01:08:40.960
nervous system to function. And so salt,
link |
01:08:43.120
I mean unless people have hypertension
link |
01:08:45.760
salt is great. There was an article in
link |
01:08:47.120
Science Magazine about a decade ago
link |
01:08:48.960
about how salt had been demonized and
link |
01:08:50.880
unless people have hypertension provide
link |
01:08:52.560
you drink enough water. Salt is great.
link |
01:08:54.480
You need sodium magnesium and potassium
link |
01:08:56.560
to function and for your nerve cells to
link |
01:08:58.960
work. I mean people who over drink
link |
01:09:00.480
water and don't consume enough electrolyte
link |
01:09:02.480
die. Now hydration is really important. I
link |
01:09:05.520
know David's really into hydration.
link |
01:09:07.120
He's mentioned that a few times. I mean
link |
01:09:08.640
hydrating properly is key and so you
link |
01:09:11.760
definitely want to make sure that you're
link |
01:09:13.360
drinking enough water and getting enough
link |
01:09:14.720
electrolytes. That I mean we should have
link |
01:09:16.720
actually talked about that at the
link |
01:09:17.760
beginning because that's going to keep
link |
01:09:19.120
your nervous system functioning well.
link |
01:09:21.280
And a lot of people they'll get shaky or
link |
01:09:23.280
jittery and when they're fasting and
link |
01:09:25.760
they'll think they need sugar and if
link |
01:09:28.160
they just put some salt and some water
link |
01:09:29.840
they feel fine. And like the other
link |
01:09:31.440
stuff potassium, magnesium, whatever the
link |
01:09:33.520
other electrolytes are but yeah. Yeah
link |
01:09:35.680
those three. So I mean salt yeah.
link |
01:09:37.920
Magnesium is good before sleep salt.
link |
01:09:41.760
I mean this is a vast space and we're
link |
01:09:43.600
kind of talking about the overlap
link |
01:09:44.640
between neurochemicals, hormones and
link |
01:09:47.440
nutrition and it's a fascinating space
link |
01:09:49.600
and it's one that the academic community
link |
01:09:51.600
has gems up within the textbooks. It
link |
01:09:54.720
hasn't really made it into the public
link |
01:09:56.640
sphere yet and I think that's because
link |
01:09:58.480
people get so caught up in the you know
link |
01:10:01.040
being are you vegan or are you carnivore
link |
01:10:03.440
and there's a vast space in between
link |
01:10:05.600
too that people can explore like I'm
link |
01:10:06.960
not a competitive athlete so I eat meat
link |
01:10:10.320
and I also eat vegetables and I eat
link |
01:10:12.240
fruits and it's just about timing them
link |
01:10:14.240
but I tend to eat carbohydrates when I
link |
01:10:15.600
want to be sleepy. I eat them at night
link |
01:10:16.880
and everyone said that's the worst thing
link |
01:10:18.640
you can't do that. You sleep great after
link |
01:10:20.560
eating a big bowl of pasta I'll tell you.
link |
01:10:22.560
And by the way I should give you a big
link |
01:10:24.640
thank you for connecting me with Bell
link |
01:10:26.960
Campo Farms. They sent me some meat
link |
01:10:30.720
I think because of you and it's delicious.
link |
01:10:34.320
So I really appreciate that. I mean
link |
01:10:37.360
it also connected me with this whole
link |
01:10:39.600
world of people who are doing farming in
link |
01:10:42.880
this ethical way and like really love
link |
01:10:44.960
the whole process and like and as from
link |
01:10:47.920
both like a human level but also
link |
01:10:49.920
scientific level and the result is
link |
01:10:54.480
it's like ethical but also delicious
link |
01:10:57.600
and it makes you think about your diet
link |
01:11:00.240
in a whole new kind of way. Yeah I've
link |
01:11:02.080
known I don't have any commercial
link |
01:11:03.840
relationship to Bell Campo so I can be
link |
01:11:05.440
very clear. I've known Anya Fernald
link |
01:11:07.280
who is the founder and CEO of Bell
link |
01:11:10.320
Campo. I've known her since the ninth
link |
01:11:11.680
grade. It is true that her parents are
link |
01:11:13.840
faculty members at Stanford. They're
link |
01:11:15.200
colleagues of mine but she's just a
link |
01:11:16.800
serious academic of nutrition but also
link |
01:11:19.600
of sustainable agriculture of you know
link |
01:11:22.000
all sorts of things and also the meat
link |
01:11:23.280
just it's awesome it tastes really good
link |
01:11:25.040
and no I'm not getting paid to say that
link |
01:11:26.720
and no they're not a sponsoring my
link |
01:11:28.480
podcast it's just if you I feel like if
link |
01:11:30.320
you're gonna eat animals if that's in
link |
01:11:33.360
your framework and you're gonna eat
link |
01:11:34.640
animals knowing that the animals were
link |
01:11:36.560
raised as happy as could be until you
link |
01:11:40.000
know time of slaughter is at least
link |
01:11:42.880
important to me. And I actually talked
link |
01:11:44.880
to her so I will talk to her on this
link |
01:11:46.640
podcast actually and she invited me
link |
01:11:49.200
like a week ago out to to visit the
link |
01:11:51.680
farm in May or June or whatever. Yeah
link |
01:11:53.440
they have the farm up at the Oregon
link |
01:11:54.640
board. I haven't been there yet but I've
link |
01:11:55.920
seen the pictures. It looks awesome and I
link |
01:11:57.840
was like yes. It looks beautiful let me
link |
01:12:00.240
know when you're going. Yeah let's go
link |
01:12:01.840
together. You'll probably run there but
link |
01:12:04.240
I'll drive there. Yeah but that all that
link |
01:12:07.680
said I do want to because a lot of
link |
01:12:10.320
people who are vegan write to me and I
link |
01:12:13.600
do want to seriously in the same
link |
01:12:15.120
seriousness that I approached Keto I
link |
01:12:17.200
do want to go like on a few months
link |
01:12:19.120
to switch to a vegan diet at some point
link |
01:12:21.920
to really try it. Yeah I haven't done it
link |
01:12:23.920
yet because I'm afraid I'm in a function
link |
01:12:25.920
better. I'm Argentine by my dad's side
link |
01:12:30.080
and I I don't eat I don't eat meat
link |
01:12:32.720
super often but well for most people
link |
01:12:35.520
would it would seem often but but I do
link |
01:12:38.320
love steak I do so I'm afraid I'm gonna
link |
01:12:41.360
feel better. There's a social element to
link |
01:12:43.040
steak you're right because coming from a
link |
01:12:44.560
Russian background like I can't imagine
link |
01:12:47.120
going to visit my folks like my parents
link |
01:12:49.920
for Thanksgiving or something to say
link |
01:12:52.000
mom and dad I'm you know I don't eat
link |
01:12:55.120
meat so is it you know. Well I think if
link |
01:12:56.960
you're gonna eat meat getting it from
link |
01:12:58.960
sources that are compatible with you
link |
01:13:02.160
know continuation of the planet is good.
link |
01:13:05.040
I mean there are some some real problems
link |
01:13:07.040
with the factory farm meat you know you
link |
01:13:08.720
drive up and down the five and you pass
link |
01:13:10.240
that point where are there all those
link |
01:13:11.680
cows. I mean as somebody who loves
link |
01:13:14.560
animals it's it's clear that it's you
link |
01:13:19.120
know you want to limit the amount of
link |
01:13:20.560
suffering of those animals. Whenever I
link |
01:13:22.480
hear about you know we have we know
link |
01:13:25.120
people that hunt and that go and get
link |
01:13:26.400
their own meat I really admire that I
link |
01:13:28.160
admire that people do that. We don't we
link |
01:13:30.080
don't tend to do that in the hills
link |
01:13:31.760
around Stanford you know they're mountain
link |
01:13:33.760
lines back there but that's about it
link |
01:13:35.280
and I'm I'm certainly I admire the
link |
01:13:38.800
vegan mindset of being of just making
link |
01:13:41.120
that decision you're just not going to
link |
01:13:42.480
consume other beings but you know I
link |
01:13:45.040
haven't gone that way. Performance wise
link |
01:13:46.960
I'm just curious because I was surprised
link |
01:13:50.720
I was certain that eating five six seven
link |
01:13:53.520
meals a day is the right thing to do for
link |
01:13:55.840
all if you want to be perform your best
link |
01:13:58.640
when I was like 20 or whatever and I
link |
01:14:01.440
would eat oatmeal like I thought it's
link |
01:14:03.680
obvious I have to have a really a lot of
link |
01:14:05.840
carbs in the breakfast. I had a lot of
link |
01:14:07.520
preconceived notions and then when I
link |
01:14:09.760
started eating like once a day this was
link |
01:14:12.320
at the peak of my competing in jiu jitsu
link |
01:14:15.760
it was like everything I know about
link |
01:14:18.160
nutrition is wrong. You realize that
link |
01:14:20.880
like you have to become a scientist
link |
01:14:22.560
first of all you have to read literature
link |
01:14:24.160
you have to learn you experiment but you
link |
01:14:26.080
also have to become a scientist of your
link |
01:14:28.080
body and in the same way I have a lot
link |
01:14:30.800
of preconceived notions of what
link |
01:14:32.640
performance is like under vegan diet and
link |
01:14:35.520
I want to do it right like seriously
link |
01:14:38.720
not not necessarily for the ethical
link |
01:14:41.600
reasons but to see if it's
link |
01:14:43.120
performance wise like can I I remember
link |
01:14:46.000
there's like a fruitarian diet where you
link |
01:14:47.920
eat fruit only. These extremes are like
link |
01:14:51.840
they're pretty they're interesting
link |
01:14:53.200
because people have this need the
link |
01:14:55.440
extremes are informative though right
link |
01:14:57.040
I mean well controlled experiments you
link |
01:14:58.800
eliminate as many variables as you can
link |
01:15:00.640
except the one you're interested in so
link |
01:15:02.480
people are running these experiments I
link |
01:15:04.800
think that
link |
01:15:07.200
it's hard to imagine getting I know
link |
01:15:10.080
people say you can get enough amino
link |
01:15:11.760
acids from plant based sources and I
link |
01:15:14.160
believe that I think it probably takes
link |
01:15:16.560
a little more work.
link |
01:15:18.400
One thing that's really clear is that
link |
01:15:19.920
the benefit of these omega 3 omega 6
link |
01:15:22.640
ratios like fish oils and things like
link |
01:15:24.480
that there are some data that show that
link |
01:15:25.760
the getting at least a thousand
link |
01:15:27.920
milligrams of the EPA which is in high
link |
01:15:30.800
in fish oils but other things too even
link |
01:15:32.400
some meats and other plants it
link |
01:15:36.000
in double you know in matched
link |
01:15:38.960
placebo double blind controlled studies
link |
01:15:41.680
placebo controlled double blind studies
link |
01:15:43.280
have shown that those can offset
link |
01:15:45.600
antidepressive symptoms as much as some
link |
01:15:47.600
of the selective serotonin reuptake
link |
01:15:49.600
inhibitors like prolac and prozac and
link |
01:15:51.760
zoloft so that's pretty impressive and
link |
01:15:54.400
in Scandinavia people know especially
link |
01:15:56.720
in winter to to consume a lot of those
link |
01:15:58.800
omega 3s because they're good for you
link |
01:16:01.120
they're good for the brain.
link |
01:16:02.800
That's the other question nutrition wise
link |
01:16:06.400
what kind of stuff have you come across
link |
01:16:08.160
that's useful like I basically only
link |
01:16:10.240
take fish oil like you said electrolytes
link |
01:16:14.000
electrolytes with water the David
link |
01:16:16.400
Goggins diet fish oil plus fish oil and
link |
01:16:20.000
then again the sponsor they made it so
link |
01:16:23.360
easier the sponsor your podcast and
link |
01:16:26.000
mineathleticgreens.com slash
link |
01:16:28.160
Hueberman support it.
link |
01:16:30.240
I don't I don't know like it's great
link |
01:16:32.960
stuff for sure but also just takes away
link |
01:16:35.600
the headache of like I don't have to
link |
01:16:37.040
think about yeah you're gonna get a
link |
01:16:38.480
bunch of vitamins and minerals
link |
01:16:40.080
you know does that sounds like a plug
link |
01:16:42.160
but I have genuinely been buying it
link |
01:16:44.640
I'm like you know no discount no
link |
01:16:46.320
affiliation anything since 2012
link |
01:16:48.320
I think I heard about it on the Tim Ferriss
link |
01:16:49.760
podcast was like oh I'm gonna try that
link |
01:16:51.120
stuff and I liked it I mean when I was
link |
01:16:53.360
starting my lab I was working insane
link |
01:16:55.520
hours I still work very long hours and
link |
01:16:58.640
getting sick limits productivity and I
link |
01:17:02.080
also wanted to train and I wasn't doing
link |
01:17:04.320
much training back then now I try and
link |
01:17:07.760
get you know three four sessions in a
link |
01:17:09.280
week I'm not doing nothing like what
link |
01:17:10.640
you and David are doing or what you
link |
01:17:12.320
know Joe does or like you guys are way
link |
01:17:14.640
more regimented than consistent than I
link |
01:17:16.400
am
link |
01:17:17.760
but I think that being healthy and
link |
01:17:19.520
feeling good is one of the great
link |
01:17:22.400
benefits to a career is having energy
link |
01:17:25.360
and just being not sick.
link |
01:17:28.000
Can we take a step back to uh sleep a
link |
01:17:31.280
little bit and so people should
link |
01:17:33.440
definitely look through your podcast
link |
01:17:37.040
the first five episodes were on sleep
link |
01:17:40.560
or no I guess the first opening episode
link |
01:17:43.120
wasn't uh first one was sort of how the
link |
01:17:44.880
brain works generally is to give people
link |
01:17:46.640
some background and then we did four
link |
01:17:48.800
episodes on sleep including some stuff
link |
01:17:50.960
about food temperature exercise jet lag
link |
01:17:53.120
shift work for the jet lag folks and
link |
01:17:55.520
shift work yeah second masterclass on
link |
01:17:57.200
sleep and then you're going on to a
link |
01:17:59.200
next topic in the next few episodes
link |
01:18:02.880
which is incredible well
link |
01:18:04.960
neuroplasticity we'll talk about it but
link |
01:18:07.120
on sleep one of the cool things about
link |
01:18:10.720
the human mind when it sleeps is dreaming
link |
01:18:15.440
what do you think we understand about
link |
01:18:18.560
the contents of dreams like what do
link |
01:18:21.760
dreams mean all the stuff we see when
link |
01:18:23.760
we dream
link |
01:18:25.280
is there something that we understand
link |
01:18:28.560
about uh the contents of dreams
link |
01:18:31.920
some of it is very concrete so um
link |
01:18:34.240
Matt Wilson who MIT showed in rodents
link |
01:18:38.800
and it's been shown in nonhuman primates
link |
01:18:40.400
and now it's been shown in humans that
link |
01:18:42.720
there is replay of spatial information
link |
01:18:46.080
during sleep so initially what Matt
link |
01:18:48.640
showed was that as these little rodents
link |
01:18:51.600
navigate through a maze there are these
link |
01:18:53.200
cells in the hippocampus called place
link |
01:18:54.800
cells that fire when the animal encounters
link |
01:18:57.120
a turn or a corridor and that same
link |
01:19:00.080
exact same sequence as replay during
link |
01:19:02.000
sleep and it turns out
link |
01:19:03.760
this is true in uh London taxi cab drivers
link |
01:19:07.360
before phones and GPS were what they are
link |
01:19:10.080
today
link |
01:19:10.880
the London taxi cab drivers were famous
link |
01:19:13.280
for knowing the routes through the city
link |
01:19:15.760
through these mental maps and their
link |
01:19:18.880
analysis of their place self firing
link |
01:19:20.720
during sleep and during wakefulness and
link |
01:19:22.640
so we are essentially taking spatial
link |
01:19:24.960
information about the location of things
link |
01:19:26.720
and replaying it during sleep however
link |
01:19:29.200
it's not replayed so that you remember it
link |
01:19:31.360
all
link |
01:19:32.160
it's replayed so that if there's a
link |
01:19:34.400
reason to remember it the links to the
link |
01:19:37.040
emotional system to the components of
link |
01:19:39.680
the limbic system and hypothalamus that
link |
01:19:42.000
are relevant like you've gotten to a
link |
01:19:43.840
car crash at a particular location or
link |
01:19:45.440
you lost a bunch of money because you
link |
01:19:46.800
were a cab driver uber driver we'd say
link |
01:19:48.960
nowadays
link |
01:19:49.680
and you were stuck at one particular
link |
01:19:51.440
avenue all day and frustrated
link |
01:19:53.280
you're getting yelled at by your spouse
link |
01:19:55.280
that information gets encoded so that
link |
01:19:57.600
you never forget that at that particular
link |
01:19:59.760
time of day and that particular time of
link |
01:20:01.280
year
link |
01:20:02.160
and this thing happens so context starts
link |
01:20:05.360
getting linked to experience so there's
link |
01:20:06.880
spatial information
link |
01:20:08.160
that's absolutely replayed during sleep
link |
01:20:10.560
and we experience this sometimes as dreams
link |
01:20:13.280
the dreams that happen early in the night
link |
01:20:15.040
when slow wave sleep or non REM sleep
link |
01:20:17.120
dominates
link |
01:20:18.400
tends to be sleep of very kind of
link |
01:20:21.200
general themes and kind of
link |
01:20:23.520
location it's a little it can feel a
link |
01:20:25.440
little bit eerie and kind of strange
link |
01:20:27.280
in not so incidentally the early phase
link |
01:20:29.600
of the night is when growth hormone is
link |
01:20:31.200
released
link |
01:20:32.160
in the 80s and 90s there was a drug that
link |
01:20:34.080
was very popular it's very legal now
link |
01:20:36.000
called ghb
link |
01:20:38.240
you could actually buy it at gnc or a
link |
01:20:41.040
store then i never took it but it was a
link |
01:20:42.800
popular party drug and some people
link |
01:20:44.720
some famous celebrities died while on
link |
01:20:47.040
ghb they were also on a bunch of other
link |
01:20:48.960
things so it's not clear what killed
link |
01:20:50.160
them but ghb was very big in certain
link |
01:20:52.720
communities
link |
01:20:53.920
because it promoted a massive release
link |
01:20:56.160
of growth hormone and gave people these
link |
01:20:58.560
very hypnotic states so people go to
link |
01:21:00.480
clubs and they were in these very
link |
01:21:01.680
hypnotic states it was part of a whole
link |
01:21:03.600
culture
link |
01:21:05.120
that's early night and those dreams
link |
01:21:08.880
tend to not have a lot of emotional
link |
01:21:10.880
content or load
link |
01:21:12.800
that phase of dreaming is associated
link |
01:21:14.960
with
link |
01:21:15.920
the occasional jolting yourself out of
link |
01:21:17.840
sleep because it's somewhat lighter
link |
01:21:19.360
sleep
link |
01:21:20.000
this the dreams that occur during REM
link |
01:21:22.240
during rapid eye movement sleep that
link |
01:21:23.680
dominate towards morning
link |
01:21:25.120
are very different they tend to have
link |
01:21:28.320
very little epinephrine is available in
link |
01:21:30.640
the brain at that time
link |
01:21:31.840
epinephrine again being this molecule
link |
01:21:33.360
stress fear and excitement
link |
01:21:35.120
you are paralyzed during these REM
link |
01:21:37.360
dreams
link |
01:21:38.000
you're you cannot move there's intense
link |
01:21:40.720
emotion
link |
01:21:41.600
at the level of what you're feeling and
link |
01:21:44.880
there's so called theory of mind
link |
01:21:46.880
theory of mind is an idea that was put
link |
01:21:48.400
forward by
link |
01:21:49.360
simon barron cohen sasha barron cohen's
link |
01:21:51.440
cousin
link |
01:21:52.320
i think on the podcast i mistakenly said
link |
01:21:53.920
that he was at uh oxford it's like the
link |
01:21:56.000
cardinal sin he's at cambridge forgive
link |
01:21:57.920
me i'm not british but
link |
01:21:59.440
so the dreams in REM have are heavily
link |
01:22:01.760
emotionally laden and it's very clear
link |
01:22:03.680
that those dreams
link |
01:22:04.960
and REM sleep if you deprive yourself of
link |
01:22:06.800
them
link |
01:22:07.120
for too long
link |
01:22:08.480
you become irritable and you start
link |
01:22:10.560
linking
link |
01:22:12.000
generally negative emotions to almost
link |
01:22:14.560
everything
link |
01:22:15.760
REM the dreams that occur in REM sleep
link |
01:22:17.680
are when we divorce emotion from our
link |
01:22:19.840
prior experiences
link |
01:22:21.680
and it's when we extract general rules
link |
01:22:24.000
and themes
link |
01:22:25.120
uh mit seems to come up a lot today but
link |
01:22:27.680
it's it's highly relevant susumaton
link |
01:22:29.760
agawa
link |
01:22:30.560
no more prize for
link |
01:22:31.840
amina galavulin but um obviously
link |
01:22:34.080
fantastic neuroscientists as well
link |
01:22:36.000
has shown that the replay of neurons in
link |
01:22:38.000
the hippocampus and elsewhere in the
link |
01:22:39.520
brain
link |
01:22:40.240
is kind of an approximation of the
link |
01:22:42.720
previous episode
link |
01:22:44.160
and a lot of fear unlearning
link |
01:22:46.560
of uncoupling emotion from hard or
link |
01:22:49.840
traumatic events that happened previously
link |
01:22:51.680
occurs
link |
01:22:52.400
in REM sleep so you don't want to deprive
link |
01:22:54.000
yourself of REM sleep for too long
link |
01:22:55.920
and those dreams tend to be very intense
link |
01:22:57.520
now epinephrine is low
link |
01:22:59.200
so that you can't suddenly act out your
link |
01:23:01.120
dreams
link |
01:23:02.160
but
link |
01:23:03.280
what's interesting is sometimes people
link |
01:23:04.720
will wake up suddenly
link |
01:23:06.400
while in a REM dream
link |
01:23:07.760
and their heart will be beating
link |
01:23:09.280
really really fast
link |
01:23:10.320
that's a surge of epinephrine that occurs
link |
01:23:12.480
as you exit REM sleep
link |
01:23:14.640
so you are having this intense emotional
link |
01:23:16.320
experience without the fear
link |
01:23:17.920
you are essentially going through therapy
link |
01:23:19.760
in your sleep
link |
01:23:20.480
self induced therapy
link |
01:23:21.840
it's like trauma therapy
link |
01:23:22.960
where you're trying to divorce the emotion
link |
01:23:24.560
from the experience
link |
01:23:25.920
and
link |
01:23:26.480
then you wake up
link |
01:23:27.440
and some people also have the other
link |
01:23:28.880
component of REM
link |
01:23:30.160
which is
link |
01:23:30.720
atonia
link |
01:23:31.280
which is paralysis
link |
01:23:32.880
pot smokers
link |
01:23:34.480
experience this a lot more than non pot
link |
01:23:36.160
smokers
link |
01:23:36.640
there's an invasion of
link |
01:23:37.920
of paralysis into the waking state
link |
01:23:40.000
I'm not a pot smoker
link |
01:23:41.040
but I have experienced this
link |
01:23:42.560
and when you wake up and you're paralyzed
link |
01:23:44.240
for a second
link |
01:23:44.800
it's terrifying
link |
01:23:46.320
but then you jolt yourself
link |
01:23:47.600
alert
link |
01:23:48.640
so
link |
01:23:49.600
the REM sleep is important for
link |
01:23:52.480
kind of the self induced therapy
link |
01:23:54.560
and forgetting the bad stuff
link |
01:23:56.640
it's good for uncoupling the emotions
link |
01:23:58.800
from bad experiences
link |
01:24:00.000
and
link |
01:24:00.480
just
link |
01:24:00.960
there are two therapies
link |
01:24:02.000
eye movement desensitization reprocessing
link |
01:24:04.400
which
link |
01:24:04.880
is a
link |
01:24:05.440
eye movement thing that shuts down the amygdala
link |
01:24:08.000
during therapy
link |
01:24:08.720
not during sleep
link |
01:24:09.680
and ketamine
link |
01:24:10.800
which is a dissociative analgesic
link |
01:24:12.960
it's actually very similar to PCP
link |
01:24:15.120
and
link |
01:24:15.840
ketamine is now being used as
link |
01:24:17.280
as a trauma therapy when someone comes into
link |
01:24:20.000
the ER for instance
link |
01:24:21.120
and they were in a terrible car accident
link |
01:24:22.640
these are horrible things to describe
link |
01:24:24.000
but you know
link |
01:24:24.560
they saw a relative impaled on the driving
link |
01:24:26.640
steering column or something
link |
01:24:28.160
and they will give this drug
link |
01:24:29.360
to try and shut off the emotion system
link |
01:24:31.600
so that
link |
01:24:32.080
because they're not going to forget
link |
01:24:33.600
let's be honest
link |
01:24:34.560
you don't forget the bad stuff
link |
01:24:36.080
but it is possible to uncouple
link |
01:24:38.480
the bad events
link |
01:24:39.600
from the emotional system
link |
01:24:41.360
and there's all sorts of ethical issues
link |
01:24:42.800
about whether or not that's good or bad to do
link |
01:24:44.400
but the PTSD
link |
01:24:45.920
is a failure to uncouple the emotion
link |
01:24:48.080
from these intense experiences
link |
01:24:50.160
so the goal of this kind of therapy
link |
01:24:52.400
is
link |
01:24:53.200
in the uncoupling
link |
01:24:54.080
for that to be permanent
link |
01:24:55.920
to
link |
01:24:56.480
to separate
link |
01:24:57.440
so they can recount the event
link |
01:24:59.280
and they can describe it without it
link |
01:25:00.880
triggering the same somatic experience
link |
01:25:02.960
of terror and dread
link |
01:25:05.040
because terror
link |
01:25:05.840
those feelings can be debilitating obviously
link |
01:25:08.240
and you're saying
link |
01:25:08.960
physiologically
link |
01:25:10.240
in REM sleep
link |
01:25:11.680
a similar process is happening
link |
01:25:13.040
that's right
link |
01:25:13.760
that
link |
01:25:14.240
thematically
link |
01:25:15.040
REM sleep is about experiencing
link |
01:25:17.280
or replaying intense emotions
link |
01:25:19.760
without experience
link |
01:25:20.880
the
link |
01:25:21.440
somatic
link |
01:25:22.000
the physical component of the emotion
link |
01:25:23.440
either the acting out
link |
01:25:24.640
or the accelerated heart rate and agitation
link |
01:25:28.080
likewise with things like ketamine therapies
link |
01:25:31.440
that's the ideas
link |
01:25:32.160
you're uncoupling the physical sensation
link |
01:25:34.240
from the mental events
link |
01:25:35.920
what is REM sleep
link |
01:25:36.880
and why is it so special
link |
01:25:39.200
maybe we can comment on that
link |
01:25:40.480
rabbit eye movement sleep
link |
01:25:42.160
yeah discovered in the 50s
link |
01:25:43.600
at the University of Chicago
link |
01:25:44.720
it's
link |
01:25:45.360
intense brain activity
link |
01:25:46.880
high levels of metabolic activity
link |
01:25:48.960
dreams in which people report
link |
01:25:50.560
a lot of the theory of mind
link |
01:25:51.920
we were talking about
link |
01:25:52.720
Simon Baron Cohen
link |
01:25:53.760
theory of mind
link |
01:25:54.800
was actually something that he developed
link |
01:25:56.320
for the diagnosis of autism
link |
01:25:58.720
if you take kids
link |
01:26:00.560
most kids of age five six seven
link |
01:26:03.120
put them in front of a TV screen
link |
01:26:04.560
in the laboratory
link |
01:26:05.360
and you have them watch a video
link |
01:26:06.400
where a kid is playing with a ball or a doll
link |
01:26:08.720
and then the kid puts it into a drawer
link |
01:26:10.720
shuts the drawer and walks away
link |
01:26:12.000
and another kid comes in
link |
01:26:13.120
and you ask the child
link |
01:26:13.920
who's observing this little movie
link |
01:26:15.520
you say
link |
01:26:16.480
what does this second child think
link |
01:26:18.400
and a typical kid would say
link |
01:26:21.520
they want to play
link |
01:26:22.240
and they don't know where the ball or doll is
link |
01:26:23.840
or they're upset
link |
01:26:25.520
or they're sad
link |
01:26:26.240
they want the doll
link |
01:26:27.680
autistic children
link |
01:26:29.200
tend to say
link |
01:26:30.160
the doll's in the drawer
link |
01:26:32.320
the toy is in the drawer
link |
01:26:33.920
they tend to fixate
link |
01:26:35.440
they can't get in
link |
01:26:36.560
on the event
link |
01:26:37.120
they can't get into the mind of that
link |
01:26:38.960
they don't have a theory of mind
link |
01:26:40.800
dreams in REM
link |
01:26:42.000
have a heavy theory of mind component
link |
01:26:44.000
people are after me trying to get me
link |
01:26:46.000
you can assign motive to other people
link |
01:26:48.240
I'm afraid
link |
01:26:49.200
but it's because
link |
01:26:50.800
there's an expectation
link |
01:26:52.480
that doesn't tend to happen
link |
01:26:53.680
in slow wave sleep dreams
link |
01:26:55.040
now all this of course is by waking people up
link |
01:26:56.960
and asking them what they were dreaming about
link |
01:26:58.480
which from a standpoint of a AI guy
link |
01:27:01.360
or a machine learning guy
link |
01:27:02.480
or a neuroscientist kind of like
link |
01:27:04.480
but it's the best we've got
link |
01:27:06.160
but brain imaging
link |
01:27:07.840
in waking states
link |
01:27:08.800
while people view a movie
link |
01:27:10.160
and then
link |
01:27:10.800
brain imaging while people are sleeping
link |
01:27:12.240
supports the idea that
link |
01:27:13.040
that's basically what's going on
link |
01:27:15.280
so REM sleep is amazing
link |
01:27:17.200
and you're not going to get much of it
link |
01:27:18.480
during your
link |
01:27:19.520
about with
link |
01:27:20.720
Goggins
link |
01:27:21.280
but you will
link |
01:27:22.000
afterward
link |
01:27:22.960
why
link |
01:27:23.360
so to comment
link |
01:27:25.200
why won't I
link |
01:27:26.400
so is it not possible to get into it real quick
link |
01:27:30.240
only if you're very very sleep deprived
link |
01:27:32.800
but because you're going to be at
link |
01:27:34.320
high muscular output
link |
01:27:35.920
that's going to bias you towards
link |
01:27:37.200
more slow wave sleep overall
link |
01:27:39.680
and
link |
01:27:39.920
and
link |
01:27:40.720
your body
link |
01:27:41.920
and brain are smart
link |
01:27:43.440
they it will know
link |
01:27:44.640
they will know
link |
01:27:45.760
that your main goal is to recover
link |
01:27:49.200
so you can keep going
link |
01:27:50.160
so you can keep firing
link |
01:27:51.200
neuromuscular contractions
link |
01:27:52.480
and you can keep running
link |
01:27:53.520
so that you can
link |
01:27:54.640
I mean it's amazing to think like
link |
01:27:55.920
why do we ever stop
link |
01:27:57.520
the unlike weight training
link |
01:27:58.880
where I can't do a 500 pound deadlift
link |
01:28:01.600
I just can't
link |
01:28:02.960
I could train for it
link |
01:28:03.760
but I certainly can't do a 600 pound
link |
01:28:05.280
I can't do that
link |
01:28:07.280
what causes us to stop
link |
01:28:09.440
an endurance event
link |
01:28:10.800
is usually not a physical barrier
link |
01:28:12.720
it's almost always a purely mental barrier
link |
01:28:15.520
and that's a very interesting problem
link |
01:28:17.680
I mean that neuroscientists don't tend to
link |
01:28:18.960
think about those sorts of problems
link |
01:28:20.640
because it sounds so
link |
01:28:22.080
non neuroscientific
link |
01:28:23.760
but that's fundamentally related to the question of
link |
01:28:27.040
you know
link |
01:28:27.920
what is pursuit
link |
01:28:29.040
why what is the the desire to push
link |
01:28:31.360
and to and to carry on
link |
01:28:33.120
is there a neuroscientific answer
link |
01:28:34.800
for that question you think
link |
01:28:35.920
I think the closest thing is this
link |
01:28:37.200
um paper from uh
link |
01:28:40.240
from Janelia Farms
link |
01:28:41.280
the Howard Hughes Campus
link |
01:28:42.320
showing that if you put
link |
01:28:44.800
animals into a simulated environment
link |
01:28:47.680
where you can measure their effort
link |
01:28:49.920
the forces on while they're running
link |
01:28:51.520
and you can look at the
link |
01:28:52.320
and you can control the visual environment
link |
01:28:53.760
and you can create a scenario
link |
01:28:54.880
where the animal thinks that it's
link |
01:28:56.720
output is futile
link |
01:28:58.000
it thinks it knows it's running
link |
01:28:59.760
and it's actually running
link |
01:29:00.880
but you change the frequency
link |
01:29:02.320
of the stripes going by
link |
01:29:03.600
in their visual world
link |
01:29:04.800
such that they think
link |
01:29:05.440
they're not getting anywhere
link |
01:29:07.120
and eventually they quit
link |
01:29:09.120
and the thing that determines
link |
01:29:10.480
whether or not they quit
link |
01:29:11.440
is a threshold level of epinephrine
link |
01:29:13.440
in the brainstem
link |
01:29:14.400
if you drop that level back down
link |
01:29:15.920
or you or you give the animals
link |
01:29:17.680
dopamine essentially
link |
01:29:19.200
they keep going
link |
01:29:20.320
if you take dopamine down
link |
01:29:22.480
they
link |
01:29:23.360
they're like this isn't worth it
link |
01:29:24.640
it's helpless
link |
01:29:25.360
and they're just
link |
01:29:25.920
this isn't worth my time and energy
link |
01:29:27.520
but this is where the difference
link |
01:29:28.640
between humans
link |
01:29:29.840
and non human animals
link |
01:29:31.920
is interesting
link |
01:29:32.640
because it does feel like humans
link |
01:29:34.000
have an extra level of cognitive
link |
01:29:36.720
ability
link |
01:29:38.080
that might be relevant here
link |
01:29:41.360
well you can pull from
link |
01:29:42.880
different time references
link |
01:29:44.640
so you're in that moment
link |
01:29:46.400
you're going to need a kit
link |
01:29:47.680
of things to pull from
link |
01:29:49.280
so you can think
link |
01:29:50.320
this is in honor of someone else
link |
01:29:52.480
that passed away
link |
01:29:53.840
and you will find a gas reserve
link |
01:29:56.480
that's amazing
link |
01:29:57.680
right now
link |
01:29:58.400
whether or not mice are like
link |
01:29:59.920
I remember my brother
link |
01:30:01.120
back in the other cage
link |
01:30:02.080
when I was a little mouse
link |
01:30:03.200
you know
link |
01:30:03.920
we don't know
link |
01:30:04.960
but it's very likely
link |
01:30:07.280
that they don't do that
link |
01:30:08.320
that they're so present
link |
01:30:09.440
they're in the experience of
link |
01:30:10.880
there and then and now
link |
01:30:12.320
that they aren't able to extract
link |
01:30:14.800
from the past
link |
01:30:15.760
and they're not able to project
link |
01:30:17.600
into the future
link |
01:30:18.160
like how great it's going to feel
link |
01:30:19.520
when I get to the end
link |
01:30:20.560
of this really lame VR corridor
link |
01:30:23.360
I don't think they think about that
link |
01:30:24.880
and and think about like
link |
01:30:26.560
if I quit now
link |
01:30:28.560
how will that have
link |
01:30:29.520
what kind of effect will it have
link |
01:30:30.720
on the rest of my life
link |
01:30:31.520
and the future difficult times
link |
01:30:33.360
like if you allow yourself to quit
link |
01:30:34.960
in this particular moment
link |
01:30:36.080
you'll become a quitter
link |
01:30:37.120
more and more in life
link |
01:30:38.080
and then you're going to not get
link |
01:30:39.680
the other nice
link |
01:30:42.240
the opposite sex mammals
link |
01:30:44.800
that's pretty severe
link |
01:30:46.000
you went there
link |
01:30:47.920
you took the whole way
link |
01:30:48.720
to evolution and back again
link |
01:30:50.160
I mean but that's really it
link |
01:30:51.520
I mean our ability
link |
01:30:52.960
to time reference
link |
01:30:54.160
in the past present
link |
01:30:55.280
or future
link |
01:30:55.920
I do believe that we can be in
link |
01:30:57.520
the present in the past
link |
01:30:59.120
or the present in the future
link |
01:31:00.480
or only in the present
link |
01:31:02.240
or only in the future
link |
01:31:03.360
only in the past
link |
01:31:04.000
but I don't think that we can really
link |
01:31:05.440
think about past present and future
link |
01:31:06.800
all at once
link |
01:31:08.000
and this has a similarity to
link |
01:31:09.920
covert attention
link |
01:31:10.720
like we can split our visual attention
link |
01:31:12.560
into two things
link |
01:31:13.600
we really can duo task
link |
01:31:15.360
even though we can't multitask
link |
01:31:16.480
so or we can bring those two spotlights
link |
01:31:18.000
of attention to the same location
link |
01:31:19.920
but it's very hard to split our
link |
01:31:21.440
attention in really well
link |
01:31:23.040
into three domains
link |
01:31:24.240
excuse me
link |
01:31:24.720
into three domains
link |
01:31:26.480
I think that that's very very
link |
01:31:28.480
challenging
link |
01:31:29.200
and our time referencing scheme
link |
01:31:31.680
tends to be
link |
01:31:32.960
just one or two time references
link |
01:31:36.880
so Lisa Feldman Barrett
link |
01:31:38.960
I'm not sure if you've done work together
link |
01:31:40.560
but at least you can
link |
01:31:41.520
I found out about her
link |
01:31:42.720
because of you
link |
01:31:43.680
your podcast with her
link |
01:31:44.880
and then I brought her onto Instagram
link |
01:31:46.080
doing an Instagram live
link |
01:31:47.120
about emotion
link |
01:31:48.240
and it was fascinating
link |
01:31:49.360
and she's a very spirited
link |
01:31:50.640
and very very smart woman
link |
01:31:52.800
and fearless
link |
01:31:54.160
and brilliant
link |
01:31:55.280
so I love her
link |
01:31:56.560
she's amazing
link |
01:31:57.200
she kind of
link |
01:31:58.960
she's not a scholar of hallucinogens
link |
01:32:01.120
hallucinogens or dreams
link |
01:32:02.960
but she had this intuition that
link |
01:32:05.920
there may be a connection
link |
01:32:07.440
between the kind of dissociation
link |
01:32:10.000
that happens in dreaming
link |
01:32:11.840
and that that happens in
link |
01:32:14.800
like psychedelics
link |
01:32:16.800
I because of my previous conversation
link |
01:32:19.840
with you
link |
01:32:22.160
on this podcast
link |
01:32:24.240
Matthew Johnson from
link |
01:32:25.520
John Hopkins reached out
link |
01:32:27.280
and he said but
link |
01:32:29.280
he commented I think
link |
01:32:31.120
on something that we commented on
link |
01:32:32.720
I don't even remember exactly what
link |
01:32:34.160
but that there's not many studies
link |
01:32:36.640
it's not being psychedelics
link |
01:32:39.040
and not being rigorously studied
link |
01:32:40.720
in an academic setting
link |
01:32:41.840
like with a full rigor of science
link |
01:32:44.480
and he said
link |
01:32:45.200
well actually
link |
01:32:46.480
that's exactly what we're doing
link |
01:32:47.840
and they were extremely well funded now
link |
01:32:50.080
and it was a been a long battle
link |
01:32:52.000
to get it accepted
link |
01:32:52.880
as a serious scientific pursuit
link |
01:32:55.760
so
link |
01:32:57.040
but
link |
01:32:57.760
and I'd like to ask you a little bit
link |
01:32:59.440
about that
link |
01:32:59.920
but do you have a sense
link |
01:33:02.560
about connection between dreams
link |
01:33:04.880
and psychedelics
link |
01:33:05.840
or these different explorations
link |
01:33:08.320
of mind states
link |
01:33:09.360
that are outside of the standard
link |
01:33:11.200
normal one
link |
01:33:12.000
that's the wake mindset?
link |
01:33:14.400
Yeah I loved your discussion with Matthew
link |
01:33:16.480
I knew of the Hopkins group
link |
01:33:18.240
and the stuff they were doing
link |
01:33:19.200
but I didn't know
link |
01:33:20.800
much about it at all
link |
01:33:21.680
and I learned a ton from that podcast
link |
01:33:23.360
I reached out to him
link |
01:33:24.400
just to say
link |
01:33:25.600
love what you're doing
link |
01:33:26.320
I think it's incredible
link |
01:33:27.200
so yeah
link |
01:33:27.600
your podcast has been a great source of
link |
01:33:30.240
serious academic
link |
01:33:31.280
and intellectual
link |
01:33:33.120
conversation for me
link |
01:33:35.200
I think what they're doing at Hopkins
link |
01:33:37.120
is amazing
link |
01:33:38.480
he has a collaborator there
link |
01:33:40.160
actually they had a very popular paper
link |
01:33:41.840
I just throw out there for fun
link |
01:33:44.320
who is a postdoc at Stanford
link |
01:33:46.160
her name is Ghoul
link |
01:33:47.760
she's Turkish I believe
link |
01:33:49.200
and I apologize
link |
01:33:52.880
her last name escapes me at the moment
link |
01:33:54.320
but that's just a function of my brain
link |
01:33:57.120
she had a paper showing
link |
01:33:58.080
that she put Octopi on MDMA
link |
01:34:01.520
on XSC
link |
01:34:02.320
and found out
link |
01:34:03.120
this was published in
link |
01:34:04.960
current biology
link |
01:34:05.920
showing it was a great journal
link |
01:34:07.120
showing that the Octopi
link |
01:34:08.320
then wanted to spend more time
link |
01:34:09.840
with other Octopi
link |
01:34:11.040
and they started cuddling
link |
01:34:12.400
so they're colleagues out there
link |
01:34:14.640
but the Hopkins project
link |
01:34:18.000
is super interesting
link |
01:34:18.960
because I think they were initially supported
link |
01:34:21.040
mainly through private philanthropy
link |
01:34:23.040
and now
link |
01:34:23.920
you're starting to see some more interest
link |
01:34:25.280
at the level of NIH
link |
01:34:26.640
about psychedelics
link |
01:34:28.800
it's a complicated space
link |
01:34:30.080
because the psychedelics are always
link |
01:34:33.440
looked at
link |
01:34:34.720
through the lens of the 60s
link |
01:34:36.080
and people losing their mind
link |
01:34:37.520
and there's a
link |
01:34:39.760
I always say
link |
01:34:40.400
you don't want to Ken Keezy out of the game
link |
01:34:42.400
Ken Keezy was amazing
link |
01:34:43.440
right part of the whole beat generation thing
link |
01:34:45.120
and he was actually at the VA
link |
01:34:47.280
near Stanford
link |
01:34:48.000
that's where he eventually in Menlo Park
link |
01:34:49.440
he wrote One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
link |
01:34:51.040
or maybe that was about him
link |
01:34:52.240
anyway
link |
01:34:52.960
the comments will tell me how wrong I am
link |
01:34:55.040
but it's
link |
01:34:55.600
I think I'm tossing these words in the general
link |
01:34:57.760
in the right general direction
link |
01:34:59.520
but
link |
01:35:00.800
you know
link |
01:35:01.120
Huxley
link |
01:35:02.640
Keezy
link |
01:35:03.120
they did a lot of LST
link |
01:35:04.800
yeah
link |
01:35:05.360
and they
link |
01:35:06.400
all lost their jobs
link |
01:35:07.920
right
link |
01:35:08.160
they lost their jobs at big institutions
link |
01:35:09.840
like Harvard and Stanford and elsewhere
link |
01:35:11.520
or they left
link |
01:35:13.360
because they
link |
01:35:15.600
they made themselves the experiments
link |
01:35:17.600
yes
link |
01:35:18.000
Hopkins as far as I know
link |
01:35:19.680
is when the first place is not the first place where
link |
01:35:22.720
whatever Matt may or may not be doing in his own life
link |
01:35:25.280
I don't know
link |
01:35:26.400
it's really about the patients and whether or not
link |
01:35:28.400
the patients in these
link |
01:35:30.320
institutional review board approved studies
link |
01:35:32.640
whether or not they're getting better
link |
01:35:34.000
in situations like depression
link |
01:35:35.760
I think
link |
01:35:37.120
it's clear that there's a very close relationship
link |
01:35:40.160
between hallucinogenic states and dreaming
link |
01:35:43.120
of the sort that were described for REM dreaming
link |
01:35:45.600
and there's a
link |
01:35:46.080
a terrific set of books
link |
01:35:48.320
and body of scientific literature
link |
01:35:49.760
from a guy named Alan Hobson
link |
01:35:51.520
who was an MD
link |
01:35:52.640
is at Harvard Med
link |
01:35:53.600
and he wrote books like dream drug store
link |
01:35:56.240
one of the first neuroscience books I ever read
link |
01:35:57.920
was about hallucinations
link |
01:35:59.520
and how psychedelics and dreaming are very similar
link |
01:36:02.080
that was way back when I was in high school
link |
01:36:03.440
I was just curious
link |
01:36:04.720
and he really understood the relationship between
link |
01:36:07.440
LSD and REM dreams
link |
01:36:08.960
and how similar they are
link |
01:36:10.880
I think psychedelics
link |
01:36:13.120
and Matt knows way more about this
link |
01:36:14.400
than I do of course
link |
01:36:15.120
but psychedelics
link |
01:36:17.360
have some very interesting properties
link |
01:36:19.600
they are certainly not for everybody
link |
01:36:21.280
right and kids it's a problem
link |
01:36:23.840
I think the major issues right now
link |
01:36:25.520
around the psychedelic conversation
link |
01:36:27.840
is that
link |
01:36:28.560
it's clear that they can unveil
link |
01:36:31.360
certain elements of neuroplasticity
link |
01:36:32.960
they make the brain amenable to change
link |
01:36:35.440
changing up space time relationships
link |
01:36:37.360
changing up the emotional load of an event
link |
01:36:39.600
and being able to reframe that
link |
01:36:41.360
it's clear that happens
link |
01:36:43.120
but there's two major issues
link |
01:36:45.120
one is that
link |
01:36:46.320
people talk about plasticity
link |
01:36:47.840
as if plasticity is the goal
link |
01:36:50.080
but plasticity is a state
link |
01:36:51.520
within which you can direct neurology
link |
01:36:53.440
and the question is
link |
01:36:54.560
what changes are you trying to get to
link |
01:36:56.640
so people are just taking psychedelics
link |
01:36:58.480
to unveil plasticity
link |
01:37:00.640
without thinking about
link |
01:37:02.160
what circuits they want to modify and how
link |
01:37:04.400
I think that's a problem
link |
01:37:06.240
I think there's great potential however
link |
01:37:08.320
for people opening up these
link |
01:37:10.480
states of plasticity
link |
01:37:12.080
with psychedelics or otherwise
link |
01:37:13.440
and directing the plastic changes
link |
01:37:16.080
toward a particular endpoint
link |
01:37:17.360
and there's an absolutely spectacular paper
link |
01:37:20.160
out of UC Davis
link |
01:37:21.920
published as a full article in Nature
link |
01:37:23.680
just a couple months ago
link |
01:37:25.360
showing that
link |
01:37:26.800
there are psychedelics that are now
link |
01:37:28.800
can be modified
link |
01:37:30.000
so chemists have gotten into the game now
link |
01:37:31.760
and modifying to take away the hallucinogenic component
link |
01:37:34.320
where you still get the neuroplasticity components
link |
01:37:37.680
and for a lot of people it'd be like
link |
01:37:39.280
oh that's no fun
link |
01:37:40.320
that's not giving you the wild experience
link |
01:37:42.960
but I do think that that holds great potential
link |
01:37:45.040
for people that wouldn't otherwise
link |
01:37:47.200
orient towards some of these drugs
link |
01:37:48.560
so I think it's really marvelous
link |
01:37:50.240
what's happening
link |
01:37:51.200
and what's about to happen
link |
01:37:52.640
and I think there is one drug
link |
01:37:55.440
in that kit of drugs
link |
01:37:57.360
that's very unusual
link |
01:37:59.120
like psilocybin, LSD
link |
01:38:00.720
those promote heavy heavy serotonin release
link |
01:38:04.080
and lateralized connections ramp up etc
link |
01:38:06.720
Matt talked about all that
link |
01:38:08.160
but MDMA, ecstasy, is a very unusual situation
link |
01:38:13.120
where dopamine is very very high
link |
01:38:16.000
because of the way the drug is designed
link |
01:38:18.640
dopamine release it goes through the roof
link |
01:38:20.960
so people feel great
link |
01:38:22.720
and they want to move
link |
01:38:23.680
and they have a lot of energy
link |
01:38:25.120
but serotonin levels are also high
link |
01:38:27.440
and that's a very unnatural state
link |
01:38:30.320
and why MDMA may
link |
01:38:33.120
may and I want to highlight may
link |
01:38:34.960
have particularly high potential
link |
01:38:38.160
for the treatment of certain forms of depression
link |
01:38:41.280
is an interesting question
link |
01:38:43.040
because never before in
link |
01:38:44.960
as far as we know in human history
link |
01:38:47.520
has there been a possibility
link |
01:38:49.760
of opening up dopaminergic
link |
01:38:51.280
and serotonergic states at the same time
link |
01:38:52.880
dopamine being the molecule pursuit
link |
01:38:54.480
and reward and more and more
link |
01:38:56.240
and serotonin being one of bliss
link |
01:38:58.480
and being content right where you're at
link |
01:38:59.920
so it's almost like those two things
link |
01:39:01.200
wrap back on themselves
link |
01:39:02.240
and create this very unusual state
link |
01:39:04.400
and I think the bigger conversation
link |
01:39:06.240
is what to do with a state like that
link |
01:39:08.240
like do you
link |
01:39:09.200
is it about self love
link |
01:39:11.200
is it about developing love for another person
link |
01:39:13.360
is it about forgetting hate
link |
01:39:15.200
like these are powerful molecules
link |
01:39:17.120
and I think if the academic community
link |
01:39:19.120
and the clinical community
link |
01:39:20.080
is going to move forward with them in any serious way
link |
01:39:22.480
I think there needs to be a conversation
link |
01:39:24.320
about what they're being used for
link |
01:39:28.240
right and coupled with that
link |
01:39:30.400
I think similar to what you're saying
link |
01:39:32.880
like Matt has talked about
link |
01:39:34.000
as others have talked about
link |
01:39:35.840
some of the biggest benefits of like progress
link |
01:39:39.840
whether it's like quitting smoking
link |
01:39:41.200
and all this kind of stuff
link |
01:39:42.800
is in the days after
link |
01:39:45.120
it's the integration of the experience
link |
01:39:47.520
so maybe you open up the brain
link |
01:39:49.440
to the neuroplasticity
link |
01:39:50.560
but then there's like work to be done
link |
01:39:52.160
it's not
link |
01:39:53.120
you're like you shake up something
link |
01:39:55.840
in the biology of the brain
link |
01:39:57.840
but you have to do then
link |
01:39:59.200
it's work
link |
01:40:00.000
absolutely
link |
01:40:00.960
now a friend of mine who's a physician
link |
01:40:03.280
he says
link |
01:40:04.880
who's quite open to this idea
link |
01:40:06.480
that psychedelics could play a real role
link |
01:40:08.720
in real medicine
link |
01:40:10.240
says better living through chemistry
link |
01:40:12.160
still requires better living
link |
01:40:14.320
and I think it's a beautiful statement
link |
01:40:16.400
I wish I had said it
link |
01:40:18.240
but he gets the credit
link |
01:40:19.920
but the plasticity window opens
link |
01:40:22.480
and then as you said
link |
01:40:23.520
what are you going to do in the two weeks
link |
01:40:24.800
three weeks four weeks afterward
link |
01:40:26.320
because that's the real opportunity
link |
01:40:28.160
but those psychedelic experiences
link |
01:40:29.760
are really a case of an amplified experience
link |
01:40:32.000
inside of an amplified experience
link |
01:40:33.440
so much so that everything seems relevant
link |
01:40:36.720
and it's fascinating
link |
01:40:39.680
I mean my hope is that
link |
01:40:41.840
the AI and machine learning
link |
01:40:43.840
and the brain machine interface
link |
01:40:45.040
and all that will eventually be merged
link |
01:40:46.960
with the psychedelic treatments
link |
01:40:49.520
so that an individual can go in
link |
01:40:52.240
take whatever amount
link |
01:40:53.680
of whatever safe for them
link |
01:40:54.880
working with a clinician
link |
01:40:56.000
and really direct the plasticity
link |
01:40:57.520
while maybe stimulating
link |
01:40:59.440
the orbital frontal
link |
01:41:00.240
media orbital frontal cortex
link |
01:41:01.840
or increasing the observer
link |
01:41:03.200
or decreasing the observer in the brain
link |
01:41:05.040
or decreasing the amygdala
link |
01:41:06.400
I mean it's doable
link |
01:41:07.840
it's doable with transcranial magnetic stimulation
link |
01:41:10.960
and it's for shutting down activity
link |
01:41:12.640
and it's doable with ultrasound
link |
01:41:14.480
ultrasound now allows very focal activation
link |
01:41:17.280
of particular brain regions
link |
01:41:19.040
through the skull noninvasively
link |
01:41:20.880
so it's approaching the same kind of
link |
01:41:23.360
therapy from different angles
link |
01:41:24.720
one of AI is the computational size
link |
01:41:26.640
sort of injecting
link |
01:41:28.400
like the robotics injecting
link |
01:41:30.800
like maybe you can even think about it
link |
01:41:32.560
as like electricity
link |
01:41:33.920
the electrical approach
link |
01:41:35.680
versus then like the chemical approach
link |
01:41:38.480
absolutely
link |
01:41:39.040
and then the psychology is subjective
link |
01:41:42.240
right
link |
01:41:42.640
so it's going to take some real understanding
link |
01:41:45.840
of what that person's lexicon is
link |
01:41:49.440
like you know
link |
01:41:50.160
that wasn't a pun
link |
01:41:50.960
sorry
link |
01:41:52.480
I'm sorry terrible
link |
01:41:53.520
I'm like the worst
link |
01:41:54.960
that's the one thing I know
link |
01:41:55.840
from the feedback on my podcast
link |
01:41:57.280
my jokes are terrible
link |
01:41:58.320
but I never claimed to be funny
link |
01:42:02.080
but somebody who they really trust
link |
01:42:04.640
and understands when somebody says
link |
01:42:08.080
for a very stoic person
link |
01:42:09.360
like I'm imagining
link |
01:42:10.400
you interviewed the great Dan Gable
link |
01:42:12.640
I don't know anything about Dan
link |
01:42:13.760
but can you imagine like you asked Dan
link |
01:42:15.440
like how you feel about something
link |
01:42:16.960
while on one of these drugs
link |
01:42:18.240
and like I mean
link |
01:42:19.440
his languaging might
link |
01:42:21.600
if he says that was troubling
link |
01:42:24.240
it might mean that it was very troubling
link |
01:42:25.920
or not troubling at all
link |
01:42:27.280
so people are
link |
01:42:29.040
languages a poor guide
link |
01:42:31.120
because if I say I'm upset
link |
01:42:32.560
how upset is that
link |
01:42:33.600
well that's very subjective
link |
01:42:35.200
so you need
link |
01:42:36.400
we need
link |
01:42:37.120
can you build a tool for that
link |
01:42:38.240
can you build an AI tool for that
link |
01:42:39.600
yeah deeper
link |
01:42:40.240
yeah well
link |
01:42:40.640
maybe that's the
link |
01:42:41.120
I
link |
01:42:41.440
maybe that's our
link |
01:42:43.280
that's what the eyes could reveal
link |
01:42:44.800
so language is not just words
link |
01:42:46.240
it's everything together
link |
01:42:47.280
and that's one of the
link |
01:42:48.800
fascinating things about the eyes
link |
01:42:50.320
and the window to the soul
link |
01:42:51.360
I mean they express so much
link |
01:42:53.120
the face the eyes the body
link |
01:42:55.920
I mean Lisa talks about that
link |
01:42:57.360
the communication of emotions
link |
01:42:59.040
it's a super complex
link |
01:43:00.960
perhaps there's a bit of a
link |
01:43:03.360
side fun tangent but
link |
01:43:05.680
Matt Matthew Johnson brings up DMT
link |
01:43:10.400
and the experience of DMT is a
link |
01:43:14.640
from a scientific perspective
link |
01:43:16.080
just a
link |
01:43:17.040
just a mystery in itself
link |
01:43:19.120
over its intensity
link |
01:43:20.240
what happens to the brain
link |
01:43:21.680
and of course
link |
01:43:22.640
Joe
link |
01:43:24.080
Rogan and others
link |
01:43:25.200
bring it up as a
link |
01:43:26.880
very different
link |
01:43:28.720
special kind of experience
link |
01:43:31.760
the end elves seem to come up off
link |
01:43:34.720
I've never tried DMT
link |
01:43:36.080
what allows for hallucinogenic states
link |
01:43:38.320
yes
link |
01:43:38.640
and it
link |
01:43:39.680
I mean DMT is a really interesting molecule
link |
01:43:41.920
there there are a lot of people
link |
01:43:43.760
experimenting now
link |
01:43:45.360
with DMT
link |
01:43:48.240
and
link |
01:43:49.600
they just
link |
01:43:50.160
the way they've described it
link |
01:43:52.000
is
link |
01:43:52.640
as a kind of a freight train
link |
01:43:54.640
through space and time
link |
01:43:56.000
very different than the way
link |
01:43:56.960
people describe LSD type experiences
link |
01:43:58.880
or psilocybin where
link |
01:44:00.240
time and space are very fluid
link |
01:44:02.000
but it tends to be a kind of a
link |
01:44:03.280
slower
link |
01:44:04.160
role if you will
link |
01:44:06.640
so it's clear that DMT is tapping
link |
01:44:08.800
into a brain state
link |
01:44:10.160
that's distinctly different
link |
01:44:11.840
than the other psychedelics
link |
01:44:13.760
and
link |
01:44:14.960
and you mentioned jujitsu
link |
01:44:16.560
and these other communities
link |
01:44:17.760
I mean it's
link |
01:44:18.880
I think it's
link |
01:44:19.920
interesting because
link |
01:44:20.960
jujitsu is a nonverbal activity
link |
01:44:23.360
and people get together
link |
01:44:24.160
and talk about this
link |
01:44:24.880
nonverbal activity
link |
01:44:26.320
and they show great love for it
link |
01:44:27.600
in the same way that surfers
link |
01:44:29.360
you know
link |
01:44:29.680
I've known some surfers in my time
link |
01:44:31.920
and they will get up at the crack of dawn
link |
01:44:34.880
and drive really really far
link |
01:44:36.240
to sit in the water
link |
01:44:36.960
and wait for this wave to come
link |
01:44:38.080
I have to imagine it's pretty fantastic
link |
01:44:40.720
I think that
link |
01:44:42.240
human beings now
link |
01:44:44.560
some of whom are in the scientific community
link |
01:44:46.320
are starting to feel comfortable enough
link |
01:44:47.920
to talk about some of these
link |
01:44:49.600
other loves and other endeavors
link |
01:44:51.280
because
link |
01:44:52.160
they do reveal a certain component
link |
01:44:53.920
about our underlying neurology
link |
01:44:55.760
I'm fascinated by
link |
01:44:58.720
the concept of wordlessness
link |
01:45:00.960
activities in which
link |
01:45:02.800
language is just not sufficient to capture
link |
01:45:06.080
and in which
link |
01:45:07.200
feel so vital
link |
01:45:08.640
as a reset
link |
01:45:09.440
as important as sleep
link |
01:45:11.280
you know I think that's one of the dangers
link |
01:45:12.640
of the phone
link |
01:45:13.200
is not that you're going to get into some online battle
link |
01:45:15.280
or that you're always staring at the phone
link |
01:45:16.560
is that
link |
01:45:16.960
it's a word
link |
01:45:17.680
so as we read things
link |
01:45:18.560
we're hearing the script in our head
link |
01:45:20.640
and I think getting into states
link |
01:45:23.440
where we are in a state of wordlessness
link |
01:45:26.400
is very renewing
link |
01:45:28.400
and replenishing
link |
01:45:29.360
and just can feel amazing
link |
01:45:31.520
for and I believe
link |
01:45:32.800
also can help us tap into
link |
01:45:35.120
creative states
link |
01:45:35.920
and allow our neurology to access creative states
link |
01:45:38.640
and sleep is one such wordlessness
link |
01:45:41.600
period
link |
01:45:42.640
so
link |
01:45:43.760
one of the most interesting things to me
link |
01:45:45.760
are states that one can approach
link |
01:45:47.680
in waking non sleep
link |
01:45:48.880
depressed
link |
01:45:50.000
wordlessness
link |
01:45:51.200
through
link |
01:45:51.680
maybe it's jiu jitsu
link |
01:45:52.640
maybe it's for some people surfing
link |
01:45:54.080
maybe it's dancing
link |
01:45:55.120
maybe it's just
link |
01:45:56.080
I don't know staring at a wall
link |
01:45:57.200
who knows
link |
01:45:58.160
but where the
link |
01:46:00.000
language components of the brain are completely shut down
link |
01:46:03.120
and it has to be the case
link |
01:46:04.560
that drugs are no drugs
link |
01:46:06.480
that the brain is entering
link |
01:46:08.880
and starting to
link |
01:46:10.080
states
link |
01:46:10.480
and starting to use algorithms
link |
01:46:12.000
that are distinctly different than when we're trying to
link |
01:46:14.720
compose things in any kind of coherent way
link |
01:46:16.560
for someone else to understand
link |
01:46:17.680
there's no interest in anyone else
link |
01:46:19.280
understanding what you're experiencing in that moment
link |
01:46:22.240
and that's beautiful
link |
01:46:23.440
and I think
link |
01:46:25.200
I think it's not just beautiful
link |
01:46:26.400
because it feels good
link |
01:46:27.600
I think it's beautiful because it's important
link |
01:46:29.600
and it's clearly fundamental to our neurology
link |
01:46:32.640
and your sense is
link |
01:46:34.160
there's a connection between dreams
link |
01:46:35.680
and DMT and like second doubt
link |
01:46:37.040
like all of the
link |
01:46:39.360
you can
link |
01:46:40.000
you can understand one
link |
01:46:41.520
by studying the other
link |
01:46:42.560
so for example dreams
link |
01:46:44.080
are also very difficult to study right
link |
01:46:46.160
but they're more accessible
link |
01:46:48.160
it's safe for the study
link |
01:46:49.760
and we're told we need to get more of it
link |
01:46:51.760
whereas with psychedelics
link |
01:46:52.880
there's this big question mark
link |
01:46:54.240
is it going to make everyone crazy
link |
01:46:56.240
is it
link |
01:46:56.800
is it going to be legal
link |
01:46:57.920
I mean
link |
01:46:58.480
it's kind of interesting how
link |
01:47:00.080
if one looks on Instagram
link |
01:47:02.320
one could almost think that these drugs are already legal
link |
01:47:04.720
based on the way that people commute
link |
01:47:05.840
but they're not yet
link |
01:47:06.720
there's still a lot of them are scheduling
link |
01:47:08.160
there's a lot of questions
link |
01:47:10.400
I mean
link |
01:47:11.040
and but nevertheless
link |
01:47:12.640
it's like
link |
01:47:13.200
my my hope is that
link |
01:47:15.840
science opens up to these
link |
01:47:19.520
drugs a little bit more
link |
01:47:20.880
it's just
link |
01:47:21.360
I have this intuition that
link |
01:47:23.440
and like a lot of people share
link |
01:47:24.960
that they would be able to
link |
01:47:27.760
unlock deeper understanding
link |
01:47:29.920
of our own mind
link |
01:47:30.880
it's any kind of
link |
01:47:31.920
same as studying dreams
link |
01:47:33.760
absolutely
link |
01:47:34.640
well creativity is in the nonlinearities
link |
01:47:37.040
right
link |
01:47:38.000
but productivity is in the
link |
01:47:40.480
implementation of linearities
link |
01:47:42.240
I mean that's
link |
01:47:43.600
that's what
link |
01:47:44.640
is absolutely clear
link |
01:47:45.600
this is why I think we were talking earlier about
link |
01:47:47.680
why a formal rigorous training in something
link |
01:47:49.760
where other people are looking at you
link |
01:47:51.120
and telling you no not good enough
link |
01:47:52.480
go back and do it again
link |
01:47:53.840
there's real value to that
link |
01:47:55.200
because otherwise it's just ideas
link |
01:47:56.960
it's just vapors
link |
01:47:58.400
you know
link |
01:47:58.960
one thing that Matt mentioned
link |
01:48:01.120
as the study that they're working on
link |
01:48:04.320
is as opposed to
link |
01:48:05.440
I think most of the psychedelic studies
link |
01:48:07.520
they've done
link |
01:48:08.800
is on
link |
01:48:10.000
how to treat different conditions
link |
01:48:11.920
and one of the things they're working on now
link |
01:48:13.520
is to try to do a study where
link |
01:48:16.800
for creatives
link |
01:48:18.000
for people that don't have a
link |
01:48:19.600
condition to try and treat
link |
01:48:20.880
but instead
link |
01:48:22.240
see how this
link |
01:48:23.680
how psychedelics can help you create
link |
01:48:25.840
so like
link |
01:48:26.400
goodness
link |
01:48:26.960
if you take creatives
link |
01:48:27.920
and you give them more psychedelics
link |
01:48:29.520
they're not going to be able to get out of there right
link |
01:48:31.520
I don't know
link |
01:48:32.560
well but this is the
link |
01:48:33.680
I maybe can speak to that
link |
01:48:35.920
psychedelics are not
link |
01:48:37.200
or dreams or tools in general
link |
01:48:38.800
how to be better creatives
link |
01:48:40.480
that's an interesting
link |
01:48:41.920
I don't often see studies of this nature of like
link |
01:48:45.360
how to take high performance
link |
01:48:46.960
in the mental
link |
01:48:49.200
creative space
link |
01:48:50.720
and get them to perform even
link |
01:48:53.040
better
link |
01:48:53.520
so it's not average people
link |
01:48:55.600
it's like masters of their craft
link |
01:48:57.600
like taking
link |
01:48:58.720
I mean his examples was
link |
01:48:59.920
taking an Elon Musk
link |
01:49:01.280
which is in the engineering space
link |
01:49:03.040
and maybe musicians
link |
01:49:04.080
and all that kind of stuff
link |
01:49:05.440
and studying that
link |
01:49:06.400
that's a
link |
01:49:07.840
I mean that's weird
link |
01:49:09.120
I usually the science
link |
01:49:11.760
the scientific exploration there
link |
01:49:13.600
has been done in
link |
01:49:15.120
by the musicians themselves
link |
01:49:16.640
as has been documented
link |
01:49:17.760
like jazz is like
link |
01:49:19.040
all non linearities
link |
01:49:20.880
yeah
link |
01:49:21.280
but if it's
link |
01:49:22.160
but the people still have to know
link |
01:49:23.520
how to play their instruments
link |
01:49:25.120
right right
link |
01:49:25.600
there's some early
link |
01:49:26.880
early skill building
link |
01:49:28.400
that's critical
link |
01:49:29.440
I mean
link |
01:49:30.560
when you
link |
01:49:30.960
manage someone like Elon
link |
01:49:32.000
I mean virtual
link |
01:49:32.720
I mean he's already a virtual so right
link |
01:49:34.480
because he and in so many different domains
link |
01:49:36.320
I've never met him
link |
01:49:37.360
but it's
link |
01:49:38.000
it's clear right
link |
01:49:39.280
he
link |
01:49:40.080
it's not just that he's ambitious
link |
01:49:41.760
and bold
link |
01:49:42.240
and brave
link |
01:49:42.720
and all that
link |
01:49:43.200
it's all that
link |
01:49:44.240
and
link |
01:49:45.120
there's
link |
01:49:46.080
there's clearly
link |
01:49:47.920
a different way of looking at the same
link |
01:49:49.520
problems that everyone else is looking at
link |
01:49:51.440
and people are probably
link |
01:49:52.560
banging their head against the refrigerators
link |
01:49:54.000
and like think differently
link |
01:49:55.040
things it doesn't work that way
link |
01:49:56.720
it involved
link |
01:49:57.360
there's a certain anxiety in
link |
01:49:59.760
for the
link |
01:50:00.240
I'm not talking about for Elon
link |
01:50:01.360
but I don't have no idea
link |
01:50:03.760
but I think for somebody who's
link |
01:50:05.840
very structured
link |
01:50:06.640
very regimented
link |
01:50:07.520
very linear
link |
01:50:08.480
the anxiety comes from letting go of those
link |
01:50:10.560
linearities
link |
01:50:12.000
and
link |
01:50:12.480
for the person that's very creative
link |
01:50:13.920
the anxiety comes from
link |
01:50:15.760
trying to impose linearities
link |
01:50:17.760
right
link |
01:50:18.160
the
link |
01:50:18.800
really creative artists or musician
link |
01:50:21.120
they're
link |
01:50:21.600
they seem nuts
link |
01:50:22.720
they seem like they can't get their life together
link |
01:50:24.400
because they can't
link |
01:50:25.920
and they
link |
01:50:26.640
you know we look at people who are kind of
link |
01:50:28.480
pseudo ass burgers or ass burgers
link |
01:50:30.000
or some forms of autism
link |
01:50:31.200
and they are so hyper linear
link |
01:50:32.960
but you take away those linearities
link |
01:50:34.480
and they freak out
link |
01:50:36.320
and that's kind of the
link |
01:50:36.960
essence of some of those syndromes
link |
01:50:38.960
so I think that
link |
01:50:40.560
the ability to toggle back and forth between
link |
01:50:42.560
those states is what's remarkable
link |
01:50:44.000
I mean
link |
01:50:44.560
because we're here
link |
01:50:45.280
and we're having this discussion
link |
01:50:46.240
I mean Steve Jobs is a good example
link |
01:50:48.080
he
link |
01:50:48.720
probably the best example
link |
01:50:49.840
somebody who actually talked about his own
link |
01:50:51.520
process
link |
01:50:52.560
about the merging of art and science
link |
01:50:54.800
art and engineering
link |
01:50:56.080
humanities and science
link |
01:50:57.840
very few people can do that
link |
01:50:59.920
well I
link |
01:51:00.720
you seem to have a capacity to do that
link |
01:51:02.720
I'd like you
link |
01:51:03.440
you know poetry
link |
01:51:04.800
and you are AI guy
link |
01:51:06.240
like you
link |
01:51:07.040
there's nothing linear about poetry
link |
01:51:08.560
as far as I can tell
link |
01:51:09.600
I mean I
link |
01:51:10.320
I do wonder
link |
01:51:11.120
just like we've been talking about
link |
01:51:12.560
if there's any ways to push that
link |
01:51:14.160
to its limits to
link |
01:51:15.680
explore further
link |
01:51:17.520
I don't like leaning
link |
01:51:18.640
this
link |
01:51:18.960
this is why I'm bothered
link |
01:51:20.160
there's not more science and psychedelics
link |
01:51:21.920
is
link |
01:51:22.320
I haven't done
link |
01:51:23.520
almost
link |
01:51:24.560
so I've
link |
01:51:25.760
eaten
link |
01:51:26.560
mushrooms a few times
link |
01:51:28.560
allegedly
link |
01:51:29.840
but that's it
link |
01:51:31.120
you know
link |
01:51:31.600
and I
link |
01:51:32.080
the reason I don't do more
link |
01:51:33.360
the reason I haven't done DMT
link |
01:51:34.960
is because it's illegal
link |
01:51:36.320
and it's like not well studied
link |
01:51:39.440
and it
link |
01:51:40.160
you know
link |
01:51:41.120
I'm in those things
link |
01:51:42.400
and I'm not usually at the cutting edge
link |
01:51:44.000
but I'm very curious
link |
01:51:45.200
and it feels like
link |
01:51:47.920
there could be tools
link |
01:51:49.360
to be discovered there
link |
01:51:51.120
not for fun
link |
01:51:51.840
not for recreation
link |
01:51:53.680
but for like
link |
01:51:56.160
encouraging
link |
01:51:57.200
whether you're linear
link |
01:51:58.240
thinking to go nonlinear
link |
01:51:59.920
or it's nonlinear to go linear
link |
01:52:01.680
like to to shake things up
link |
01:52:03.360
you mentioned Dan Gable
link |
01:52:04.960
the idea of Dan Gable on psychedelics
link |
01:52:06.800
is fascinating to me
link |
01:52:07.680
because
link |
01:52:08.560
he's such
link |
01:52:09.920
a control freak
link |
01:52:11.040
I mean
link |
01:52:11.920
he likes control
link |
01:52:12.800
that I would show up for
link |
01:52:13.520
that
link |
01:52:13.920
that would not show up for
link |
01:52:15.120
but like so much of these psychedelic experiences
link |
01:52:17.520
it feels like
link |
01:52:18.560
is
link |
01:52:18.960
are letting go
link |
01:52:19.760
that's right
link |
01:52:20.000
you don't want to resist
link |
01:52:21.120
but that's supposed
link |
01:52:21.840
supposedly where the growth is
link |
01:52:23.840
in in giving
link |
01:52:25.120
oneself over to the process
link |
01:52:27.440
and that's
link |
01:52:28.080
for people who are
link |
01:52:29.200
like master controllers
link |
01:52:31.200
he's one of the greatest coaches of all time
link |
01:52:33.040
it's fascinating to see what that battle looks like
link |
01:52:35.680
of resistance
link |
01:52:36.560
and then of letting go
link |
01:52:38.560
yeah I mean
link |
01:52:39.200
I I can't wait to
link |
01:52:42.080
to see where these studies takes us
link |
01:52:43.920
what's clearly happening
link |
01:52:45.360
you know I've asked
link |
01:52:46.080
there I have a couple of colleagues at Stanford
link |
01:52:47.600
who are doing animal studies
link |
01:52:49.280
I've asked around
link |
01:52:50.320
you know it's
link |
01:52:51.280
there's a lot of discussion
link |
01:52:52.880
in the neuroscience community
link |
01:52:54.160
about what the perception of a laboratory is
link |
01:52:56.720
if they
link |
01:52:57.920
don't work on psychedelics
link |
01:52:59.360
I mean
link |
01:53:00.480
I have to tip my hat
link |
01:53:01.600
to the folks at Hopkins
link |
01:53:02.720
they are pioneers
link |
01:53:04.080
and as
link |
01:53:05.040
Terry Szygnowski
link |
01:53:05.920
he's a computational neuroscientist
link |
01:53:07.600
down at Salk says
link |
01:53:08.480
I don't think he was the first person to say he says
link |
01:53:10.560
you know how to spot the pioneers
link |
01:53:12.400
they're the ones with the arrows in their backs
link |
01:53:14.480
yeah
link |
01:53:15.040
and you know it's
link |
01:53:16.160
it's an unkind world
link |
01:53:18.240
to a scientist
link |
01:53:19.760
that's trying to do
link |
01:53:20.720
really cutting edge stuff
link |
01:53:21.920
my colleague
link |
01:53:22.640
David Spiegel
link |
01:53:23.200
who studies medical hypnosis
link |
01:53:24.800
it's he's got
link |
01:53:26.080
dozens of studies now
link |
01:53:27.280
showing that
link |
01:53:28.000
hypnosis can be beneficial
link |
01:53:29.360
for pain management
link |
01:53:30.320
anxiety management
link |
01:53:31.280
cancer outcomes
link |
01:53:32.480
and it's finally
link |
01:53:33.600
you know
link |
01:53:34.160
at the point where
link |
01:53:35.200
there's so much data
link |
01:53:36.720
but people hear hypnosis
link |
01:53:38.000
and they think of stage hypnosis
link |
01:53:39.200
which is like the furthest thing
link |
01:53:40.320
from what he's doing
link |
01:53:41.920
and
link |
01:53:42.640
I think
link |
01:53:43.920
mind body
link |
01:53:44.960
type stuff
link |
01:53:45.600
hypnosis
link |
01:53:46.880
respiration
link |
01:53:47.760
and breathing
link |
01:53:48.320
I think the hard science
link |
01:53:51.120
walk into the problem
link |
01:53:52.480
is always going to be best
link |
01:53:53.680
to get the community on board
link |
01:53:55.840
and then
link |
01:53:56.400
it's up to people like Matt
link |
01:53:58.000
and
link |
01:53:59.280
to really
link |
01:54:00.240
you know take it to the next level
link |
01:54:01.600
and as I say not
link |
01:54:02.640
Keesey out of the game
link |
01:54:03.680
because Keesey basically
link |
01:54:04.880
was taken too much
link |
01:54:06.320
of his own stuff
link |
01:54:07.120
and he started dressing
link |
01:54:08.000
crazy of banana hats
link |
01:54:09.280
and like you see him
link |
01:54:09.920
he had the magic bus
link |
01:54:11.600
so you know the day
link |
01:54:12.480
so like the day I start
link |
01:54:13.600
driving to work
link |
01:54:14.240
in the magic bus
link |
01:54:15.440
that's the day I lose my job
link |
01:54:16.880
where you're gonna
link |
01:54:17.520
I'm not into buses
link |
01:54:18.480
or or or
link |
01:54:19.600
wearing fruit
link |
01:54:20.480
but um
link |
01:54:20.880
you're gonna get a phone call
link |
01:54:21.840
for me
link |
01:54:22.240
and I hope you do the same for me
link |
01:54:23.520
it's like
link |
01:54:24.640
like
link |
01:54:25.200
dude what are you doing
link |
01:54:26.480
well what's interesting
link |
01:54:27.600
earlier we're talking about
link |
01:54:28.320
the challenge with David
link |
01:54:29.360
that you're about to do
link |
01:54:30.480
I mean
link |
01:54:30.800
that is a psychedelic experience
link |
01:54:34.000
of sorts
link |
01:54:34.480
because you're biasing your mind
link |
01:54:36.080
towards a pretty extreme
link |
01:54:37.200
neurochemical state
link |
01:54:38.560
and you don't know
link |
01:54:39.440
what you're gonna find there
link |
01:54:40.560
and that's kind of the excitement
link |
01:54:42.000
at least for me
link |
01:54:42.560
as an observer
link |
01:54:43.520
it's like
link |
01:54:43.920
I want to know
link |
01:54:45.360
what
link |
01:54:46.480
what the experience
link |
01:54:47.600
is like
link |
01:54:48.880
afterward
link |
01:54:49.360
I want to know like
link |
01:54:50.400
how was it
link |
01:54:50.960
I mean I'm sure
link |
01:54:51.600
you're gonna get something
link |
01:54:52.560
like you said
link |
01:54:52.960
you're gonna grow
link |
01:54:53.760
the question is how
link |
01:54:54.720
and not resisting
link |
01:54:55.680
I mean it's the same as
link |
01:54:56.400
with a psychedelic experience
link |
01:54:57.680
it's like
link |
01:54:58.240
not
link |
01:54:59.360
like
link |
01:54:59.920
giving yourself over completely
link |
01:55:01.360
to the experience
link |
01:55:02.160
and not resisting
link |
01:55:03.280
and going through
link |
01:55:03.760
the whole mental journey
link |
01:55:04.880
of whether it's
link |
01:55:06.320
anger
link |
01:55:06.960
or excitement
link |
01:55:07.920
or exhaustion
link |
01:55:08.560
the whole thing
link |
01:55:09.760
it's uh
link |
01:55:11.200
I mean
link |
01:55:13.120
that's
link |
01:55:14.320
the entirety
link |
01:55:15.520
of the process
link |
01:55:16.480
that David goes through
link |
01:55:17.760
when he does
link |
01:55:18.320
his own challenges
link |
01:55:19.520
and so on
link |
01:55:20.320
is that whole journey
link |
01:55:21.280
he finds purposely
link |
01:55:23.200
like
link |
01:55:24.080
missile seeks
link |
01:55:25.360
the limits of the mind
link |
01:55:27.120
that that
link |
01:55:27.920
whatever the resistance
link |
01:55:29.600
is felt
link |
01:55:30.480
runs up against it
link |
01:55:31.760
and then goes to
link |
01:55:32.400
the full journey
link |
01:55:33.200
of going beyond it
link |
01:55:34.400
and seeing
link |
01:55:34.960
what's there
link |
01:55:35.600
on the other side
link |
01:55:36.400
well stress has these
link |
01:55:37.360
two sides
link |
01:55:37.920
the limbic friction
link |
01:55:38.880
of being tired
link |
01:55:39.920
and needing to get
link |
01:55:40.720
more energized
link |
01:55:41.520
that's one form of stress
link |
01:55:43.440
and then there's the
link |
01:55:44.480
feeling too amped up
link |
01:55:45.440
and needing to calm down
link |
01:55:46.800
the typical
link |
01:55:47.920
discussion around stress
link |
01:55:48.800
is one thing
link |
01:55:50.000
but it's all limbic friction
link |
01:55:51.600
it's just that
link |
01:55:52.240
when I say limbic friction
link |
01:55:53.440
that's not a real
link |
01:55:54.080
scientific term
link |
01:55:54.720
I just mean
link |
01:55:55.040
the limbic system
link |
01:55:55.920
wanting to pull you down
link |
01:55:57.040
into sleep
link |
01:55:57.520
or wanting to put you
link |
01:55:58.400
into panic
link |
01:55:59.200
and you
link |
01:55:59.920
using
link |
01:56:00.640
top down processing
link |
01:56:01.600
using that
link |
01:56:02.480
evolved
link |
01:56:03.600
forebrained to say
link |
01:56:05.600
I'm not going to go to sleep
link |
01:56:06.720
and I'm not going to freak out
link |
01:56:08.960
and those top down
link |
01:56:09.760
control mechanisms are
link |
01:56:11.600
I mean when those get honed
link |
01:56:14.000
that's beautiful
link |
01:56:15.040
because then you
link |
01:56:16.240
you're increasing
link |
01:56:17.120
capacity for everything
link |
01:56:19.520
you
link |
01:56:19.840
uh
link |
01:56:20.800
this month on the podcast
link |
01:56:22.160
you're talking about
link |
01:56:22.720
neuroplasticity
link |
01:56:23.600
you mentioned
link |
01:56:24.000
in a bunch already
link |
01:56:25.120
is there something you're
link |
01:56:26.800
looking forward to
link |
01:56:28.160
specifically
link |
01:56:28.960
like
link |
01:56:29.680
something maybe you're
link |
01:56:30.480
fascinated by
link |
01:56:31.760
that jumps to mind
link |
01:56:33.040
about neuroplasticity
link |
01:56:34.560
this fascinating
link |
01:56:35.840
property of the brain
link |
01:56:37.440
yeah I think that
link |
01:56:38.960
it's clear there's
link |
01:56:39.840
one facet of neuroplasticity
link |
01:56:41.760
that is very well supported
link |
01:56:43.440
by the research data
link |
01:56:45.280
that hardly anyone
link |
01:56:46.560
is implemented
link |
01:56:47.840
in the real world
link |
01:56:48.800
and that's the release
link |
01:56:49.680
of acetylcholine
link |
01:56:50.560
from these neurons
link |
01:56:51.440
in the forebrained
link |
01:56:52.080
called nucleus basalis
link |
01:56:53.520
this is mainly the work
link |
01:56:54.640
of Mike Mersenek
link |
01:56:55.840
who used to be at UCSF
link |
01:56:57.280
and some of his scientific
link |
01:56:58.480
offspring Greg Reckon's own
link |
01:56:59.920
and Michael Kilgard
link |
01:57:01.040
and others
link |
01:57:01.360
what they showed was
link |
01:57:03.200
increases in acetylcholine
link |
01:57:04.720
this molecule
link |
01:57:05.760
associated with focus
link |
01:57:07.520
in concert
link |
01:57:08.880
meaning at the same time
link |
01:57:10.000
is some
link |
01:57:11.200
event
link |
01:57:11.920
motor event
link |
01:57:12.880
or music event
link |
01:57:14.080
or any kind of
link |
01:57:15.600
sensory event
link |
01:57:17.040
immediately
link |
01:57:18.400
reorganizes the neocortex
link |
01:57:20.400
so that there's a permanent
link |
01:57:21.600
map representation
link |
01:57:22.640
of that event
link |
01:57:23.840
and I
link |
01:57:24.400
I absolutely believe
link |
01:57:26.000
that this can be channeled
link |
01:57:27.360
toward accelerated skill
link |
01:57:28.640
learning
link |
01:57:29.840
and my friend and colleague
link |
01:57:30.800
Eddie Chang
link |
01:57:31.360
who's now the
link |
01:57:32.640
chair of neurosurgery
link |
01:57:33.440
at UCSF
link |
01:57:34.640
but also a fine scientist
link |
01:57:36.080
in his own right
link |
01:57:37.600
not just a clinician
link |
01:57:38.720
he's doing
link |
01:57:39.840
studies looking at
link |
01:57:40.560
rapid acquisition of language
link |
01:57:42.560
using these principles
link |
01:57:43.520
he trained with Mersenek
link |
01:57:45.680
it's clear we have these
link |
01:57:46.960
gates on plasticity
link |
01:57:48.000
in the forebrained
link |
01:57:48.800
and they are gated by
link |
01:57:50.800
nicotinic acetylcholine
link |
01:57:52.720
transmission
link |
01:57:53.600
and why that hasn't made it
link |
01:57:55.520
into protocols
link |
01:57:56.880
for
link |
01:57:57.600
motor learning
link |
01:57:58.240
sport learning
link |
01:57:58.800
language learning
link |
01:57:59.440
music learning
link |
01:58:00.320
emotional learning
link |
01:58:01.520
I don't know
link |
01:58:02.400
I think part of the reason
link |
01:58:03.600
has been
link |
01:58:04.240
kind of cultural
link |
01:58:05.440
is that scientists
link |
01:58:06.240
publish their paper
link |
01:58:07.040
and they move on
link |
01:58:07.760
Mersenek
link |
01:58:08.960
talked a lot
link |
01:58:09.520
and still
link |
01:58:10.240
can be found
link |
01:58:10.880
from time to time
link |
01:58:11.600
talking about
link |
01:58:13.040
how these
link |
01:58:13.920
plasticity mechanisms
link |
01:58:15.040
can be leveraged
link |
01:58:16.560
but
link |
01:58:17.600
he had a commercial company
link |
01:58:18.800
and so then people
link |
01:58:19.600
kind of backed away
link |
01:58:20.320
from it a little bit
link |
01:58:21.200
I think he was
link |
01:58:21.920
to be honest
link |
01:58:22.640
I think
link |
01:58:23.200
Mersenek was ahead of his time
link |
01:58:25.120
and I think the timing is
link |
01:58:26.160
right now
link |
01:58:27.360
for people to understand
link |
01:58:28.720
these mechanisms
link |
01:58:29.520
of plasticity
link |
01:58:30.240
and start to implement them
link |
01:58:31.520
also
link |
01:58:31.920
you know
link |
01:58:32.160
it all sounds like
link |
01:58:32.880
becoming superhuman
link |
01:58:34.080
or optimizing
link |
01:58:34.960
or whatever
link |
01:58:35.840
all that
link |
01:58:36.400
yes
link |
01:58:36.880
but also
link |
01:58:37.280
what about kids
link |
01:58:37.920
with language
link |
01:58:38.880
learning deficits
link |
01:58:39.600
or with dyslexia
link |
01:58:40.880
or just performance
link |
01:58:42.480
in school in general
link |
01:58:43.600
I mean I have a deep
link |
01:58:44.880
interesting concern
link |
01:58:46.160
for the future of science
link |
01:58:47.520
and mathematics
link |
01:58:48.400
and in
link |
01:58:49.280
not just in this country
link |
01:58:50.160
but all over the world
link |
01:58:51.520
and more plasticity
link |
01:58:53.200
equals faster
link |
01:58:54.400
better deeper learning
link |
01:58:56.000
and if we don't do this
link |
01:58:57.920
I don't think we're going to get
link |
01:58:58.880
the full reach
link |
01:59:00.400
out of all the
link |
01:59:01.200
machine learning tools either
link |
01:59:02.960
because
link |
01:59:03.760
everyone talks about these huge data sets
link |
01:59:05.520
and
link |
01:59:05.840
but those huge data sets
link |
01:59:06.960
funnel into human interpretation
link |
01:59:09.280
I mean we don't just like
link |
01:59:10.080
stare at the numbers
link |
01:59:11.040
and bask right
link |
01:59:12.240
so some
link |
01:59:13.360
the human brain
link |
01:59:14.240
I think needs to
link |
01:59:15.680
leverage these
link |
01:59:16.400
plasticity mechanisms
link |
01:59:17.440
to keep up with
link |
01:59:18.560
the thing that's happening
link |
01:59:19.440
very very fast
link |
01:59:20.080
which is technology development
link |
01:59:21.600
so that's a long winded way of saying
link |
01:59:24.000
basal forebrain
link |
01:59:24.800
colonergic transmission
link |
01:59:26.080
and plasticity
link |
01:59:26.880
it
link |
01:59:27.440
allows for plasticity in adulthood
link |
01:59:28.960
and it allows for
link |
01:59:30.160
single trial learning
link |
01:59:31.440
which is incredible
link |
01:59:33.200
but
link |
01:59:33.600
how do we leverage that
link |
01:59:34.880
like
link |
01:59:35.440
in the
link |
01:59:36.240
physical space taking actions
link |
01:59:38.000
or is there some chemicals
link |
01:59:39.200
that can stimulate
link |
01:59:42.720
stimulate neuroplasticity
link |
01:59:44.320
like what
link |
01:59:44.720
I think it's the intersection of the two
link |
01:59:46.640
I think it's being engaged
link |
01:59:47.680
in a physical practice
link |
01:59:48.800
while enhancing pharmacology
link |
01:59:50.720
and it has to be done safely
link |
01:59:52.080
and this is full of open questions
link |
01:59:53.920
this is the very beginnings
link |
01:59:55.120
of it like you're saying
link |
01:59:56.480
yeah a pill
link |
01:59:57.840
that's safe
link |
01:59:58.800
that increases
link |
01:59:59.440
nicotinic transmission
link |
02:00:00.560
I mean I know a number of people
link |
02:00:01.520
that chew Nicorette
link |
02:00:02.880
actually I have a
link |
02:00:03.920
Nobel Prize winning colleague
link |
02:00:05.440
at
link |
02:00:06.080
Columbia
link |
02:00:06.800
not to be named
link |
02:00:08.240
who chews like six pieces of Nicorette
link |
02:00:09.840
and a half hour conversation with him
link |
02:00:11.760
and he
link |
02:00:12.720
started doing that as a replacement
link |
02:00:14.160
for smoking
link |
02:00:14.800
because smoking
link |
02:00:16.160
is nicotine, nicotinic stimulation
link |
02:00:18.080
of the
link |
02:00:18.800
colonergic system
link |
02:00:19.760
so smokers have long known
link |
02:00:21.440
that increases focus
link |
02:00:22.640
and attention
link |
02:00:23.200
and learning
link |
02:00:24.000
it's just that the lung cancer thing
link |
02:00:25.600
is a barrier
link |
02:00:26.960
now I'm not suggesting people
link |
02:00:28.240
take Nicorette
link |
02:00:28.960
but it's clear that
link |
02:00:30.000
we need
link |
02:00:30.960
better directed pharmacology
link |
02:00:32.720
but
link |
02:00:33.280
you can imagine next time
link |
02:00:34.240
you go in for a learning bout
link |
02:00:35.520
if it's really essential
link |
02:00:37.360
you might want to stimulate
link |
02:00:38.480
the nicotinic system
link |
02:00:39.680
if that's safe for you
link |
02:00:41.360
again I'm a doctor
link |
02:00:42.400
so again I'm not telling people
link |
02:00:43.600
to do this
link |
02:00:44.080
but that's where it's going
link |
02:00:45.680
until we start merging
link |
02:00:46.880
machines with pharmacology
link |
02:00:48.320
and behavior
link |
02:00:49.840
it's
link |
02:00:50.480
it
link |
02:00:51.280
we're just kind of walking around
link |
02:00:52.480
in the circle over and over again
link |
02:00:54.320
and it's going to happen
link |
02:00:56.400
do you find
link |
02:00:57.600
computer vision
link |
02:00:59.200
machine learning
link |
02:01:01.280
from the perspective of tooling
link |
02:01:03.520
as an interesting tool for
link |
02:01:06.320
analyzing
link |
02:01:07.120
for processing
link |
02:01:08.080
all the data
link |
02:01:08.720
from the neuroscience world
link |
02:01:10.160
from the
link |
02:01:10.880
neurobiology
link |
02:01:11.840
biology
link |
02:01:12.880
the camera
link |
02:01:13.680
all the different data sets
link |
02:01:14.960
that you can have
link |
02:01:15.600
about the mind
link |
02:01:16.480
the eye
link |
02:01:17.040
the
link |
02:01:18.960
everything that's neck and above
link |
02:01:20.880
and also the central nervous system
link |
02:01:22.240
and all
link |
02:01:23.440
absolutely
link |
02:01:24.080
I mean
link |
02:01:24.640
I think that
link |
02:01:25.920
computer science and engineering
link |
02:01:27.520
and chemistry
link |
02:01:28.560
bioengineering is
link |
02:01:30.720
that's what's creating
link |
02:01:31.920
the acceleration and progress
link |
02:01:33.760
in neuroscience right now
link |
02:01:35.520
I think it's actually one place
link |
02:01:37.280
where
link |
02:01:37.920
science
link |
02:01:38.560
I'm very reassured
link |
02:01:39.680
science has
link |
02:01:40.880
been invited in
link |
02:01:42.320
psychologists
link |
02:01:43.120
computational biologists
link |
02:01:44.240
at least at Stanford
link |
02:01:45.120
MIT
link |
02:01:45.600
and
link |
02:01:46.000
and other places too
link |
02:01:47.200
of course
link |
02:01:48.000
it's clear that
link |
02:01:49.360
it's a
link |
02:01:49.920
everyone's invited kind of party
link |
02:01:52.000
right now
link |
02:01:53.200
that the major issue
link |
02:01:54.640
in the field of neuroscience
link |
02:01:55.760
at least
link |
02:01:56.240
through my view
link |
02:01:57.040
is that there's no conceptual leadership
link |
02:01:59.040
no one is saying
link |
02:01:59.680
we need to work on
link |
02:02:00.560
and solve this problem
link |
02:02:01.600
or that problem
link |
02:02:02.640
it's very fragmented right now
link |
02:02:05.520
now the good news is
link |
02:02:06.480
people are communicating
link |
02:02:07.680
so
link |
02:02:08.240
computer scientists
link |
02:02:09.200
and people who work on AI
link |
02:02:10.240
machine vision
link |
02:02:10.880
are talking to biologists
link |
02:02:12.000
and vice versa
link |
02:02:13.520
but
link |
02:02:13.920
it's very dispersed
link |
02:02:15.520
is there a lot of different data sets
link |
02:02:17.280
like it will
link |
02:02:17.840
in your work
link |
02:02:18.720
that you've just come across
link |
02:02:20.000
is there a huge number of
link |
02:02:21.840
disparate data sets
link |
02:02:23.040
around neuroscience and so on
link |
02:02:24.720
or
link |
02:02:25.040
well there's a lot of cell sequencing stuff
link |
02:02:27.280
so the brode
link |
02:02:28.160
over at
link |
02:02:28.720
you know
link |
02:02:29.280
in Boston
link |
02:02:30.320
and then
link |
02:02:30.880
on this coast
link |
02:02:31.680
the Chen Zuckerberg initiative
link |
02:02:34.160
what you know
link |
02:02:36.240
they did
link |
02:02:36.880
three billion dollars to
link |
02:02:38.240
sequence every cell type
link |
02:02:40.000
in humans and in animals
link |
02:02:41.520
and trying
link |
02:02:42.160
I think their goal is to
link |
02:02:43.600
cure every disease
link |
02:02:44.880
by some date
link |
02:02:46.320
I don't know in the
link |
02:02:47.040
in the future
link |
02:02:47.920
huge data sets
link |
02:02:52.000
of gene expression
link |
02:02:52.880
and protein expression
link |
02:02:54.720
that's valuable
link |
02:02:55.680
I think
link |
02:02:57.040
no one really knows
link |
02:02:57.760
how to think about neural circuits
link |
02:02:59.840
and what
link |
02:03:00.560
what is a neural circuit
link |
02:03:02.800
is it one structure
link |
02:03:04.400
is it two structures
link |
02:03:05.440
communicating
link |
02:03:06.480
I think
link |
02:03:07.600
this is where I actually think
link |
02:03:08.720
that the robotics
link |
02:03:10.080
is going to
link |
02:03:11.280
tell us
link |
02:03:12.400
how the brain works
link |
02:03:13.520
because it's tempting to think
link |
02:03:15.280
that the brain
link |
02:03:16.160
has all these cell types
link |
02:03:18.000
and circuits in order to solve
link |
02:03:19.520
specific problems
link |
02:03:20.720
but it might be that
link |
02:03:21.760
the fundamental algorithm
link |
02:03:23.120
is to create cells and circuits
link |
02:03:24.880
that can solve
link |
02:03:25.680
variable problems
link |
02:03:26.960
when we know in the retina
link |
02:03:28.240
just a very simple example
link |
02:03:29.600
is that
link |
02:03:30.160
we've always heard about like
link |
02:03:31.120
cones are for color vision
link |
02:03:32.400
and high acuity
link |
02:03:33.280
and rods are for night vision
link |
02:03:34.560
and
link |
02:03:35.040
and
link |
02:03:36.000
non color vision
link |
02:03:37.440
but
link |
02:03:38.080
at the dusk dawn
link |
02:03:39.680
transition
link |
02:03:40.720
certain cell types switch
link |
02:03:41.920
to do completely different
link |
02:03:43.040
have a complete different function
link |
02:03:44.320
for viewing starry night
link |
02:03:45.440
versus
link |
02:03:46.320
what they do during the daytime
link |
02:03:47.920
so
link |
02:03:48.560
neurons multiplex
link |
02:03:50.000
and I think building
link |
02:03:51.680
machines that can multiplex
link |
02:03:53.760
and can evolve themselves
link |
02:03:55.440
is going to
link |
02:03:56.560
help us really understand
link |
02:03:57.680
what the brain is doing
link |
02:03:58.560
we
link |
02:03:59.120
need to tease out the fundamental
link |
02:04:00.480
algorithms
link |
02:04:01.360
we know they're like
link |
02:04:02.160
motion detection
link |
02:04:03.200
and spatial vision
link |
02:04:04.560
and things like that
link |
02:04:05.040
I think machines are going to
link |
02:04:06.080
be much faster at that than
link |
02:04:08.160
our understanding of
link |
02:04:10.320
biology
link |
02:04:10.960
and how the brain does that
link |
02:04:13.520
basically I'll be out of a job
link |
02:04:14.960
and people like you will have a job
link |
02:04:16.320
well no
link |
02:04:16.960
I think the main idea is that
link |
02:04:19.440
there won't be a job
link |
02:04:20.960
that's machine learning
link |
02:04:22.000
or
link |
02:04:23.040
computer vision
link |
02:04:23.840
it's just
link |
02:04:24.640
it's a tool that
link |
02:04:26.400
neuroscientists will
link |
02:04:27.600
use more and more and more
link |
02:04:29.280
and
link |
02:04:30.720
biologists would use
link |
02:04:31.760
I mean this whole idea that
link |
02:04:32.880
it will just be a
link |
02:04:34.320
tool
link |
02:04:35.200
that allows you to start
link |
02:04:38.400
expanding the kind of things
link |
02:04:40.000
you can study
link |
02:04:41.600
well the next generation
link |
02:04:42.800
coming up
link |
02:04:43.360
I can say this because
link |
02:04:44.160
I now am blessed to have a
link |
02:04:45.440
bioengineering student
link |
02:04:46.720
they think about problems so
link |
02:04:47.920
differently
link |
02:04:48.800
than biologists do
link |
02:04:50.800
we realize the other day
link |
02:04:51.600
we both came up with a set of
link |
02:04:52.880
ideas around a certain project
link |
02:04:54.240
and we realized that
link |
02:04:55.440
her version of it was the
link |
02:04:56.480
exact opposite of mine
link |
02:04:57.920
you know
link |
02:04:58.240
and hers was far
link |
02:04:59.360
far more rational
link |
02:05:00.160
it's just an engineering
link |
02:05:00.960
perspective
link |
02:05:01.440
it's like why would we
link |
02:05:02.640
do that last
link |
02:05:03.440
we should do that first
link |
02:05:04.800
I think that the
link |
02:05:05.680
the next generation is
link |
02:05:06.880
really interested in
link |
02:05:08.080
solving practical problems
link |
02:05:09.680
it's a lot like computer
link |
02:05:10.640
science and engineering was
link |
02:05:12.000
in the late 90s
link |
02:05:12.880
it was like
link |
02:05:13.680
you can go do a PhD
link |
02:05:14.800
in computer science and engineering
link |
02:05:16.320
maybe
link |
02:05:16.960
or you go work for a company
link |
02:05:18.160
and actually build stuff
link |
02:05:19.040
that's useful
link |
02:05:20.080
I think neuroscientists
link |
02:05:21.120
and people interested in
link |
02:05:21.840
neuroscience
link |
02:05:22.480
are starting to think
link |
02:05:23.680
how can I build stuff
link |
02:05:24.560
that's useful
link |
02:05:25.440
and this is
link |
02:05:26.480
statement is supported
link |
02:05:27.280
by the fact that many
link |
02:05:28.800
people in my business
link |
02:05:30.480
leave their academic labs
link |
02:05:32.000
fortunately not all of them
link |
02:05:33.200
but they leave their academic labs
link |
02:05:34.400
and they go work for companies
link |
02:05:36.320
like Neuralink
link |
02:05:37.440
like Neuralink
link |
02:05:38.720
this is something I think
link |
02:05:39.760
with they've spoken a few times
link |
02:05:41.360
offline
link |
02:05:41.840
about
link |
02:05:44.800
as
link |
02:05:45.200
let me speak of computer vision
link |
02:05:47.200
I'm fascinated by the eye
link |
02:05:48.640
I did a bunch of work on the eye
link |
02:05:50.640
so from
link |
02:05:51.360
there's the neuroscientists
link |
02:05:52.720
there's a neurobiology way
link |
02:05:53.840
of studying the eye
link |
02:05:55.040
and there's the computer vision
link |
02:05:56.240
way of studying the eye
link |
02:05:57.840
and the computer vision way
link |
02:05:58.960
of studying the eye
link |
02:05:59.760
of just like observing
link |
02:06:00.960
noncontact sensing of humans
link |
02:06:02.960
is really fascinating to me
link |
02:06:04.240
in studying human behavior
link |
02:06:05.680
in different contexts
link |
02:06:06.640
like in semi autonomous vehicles
link |
02:06:09.520
it seemed like
link |
02:06:10.320
there's a lot of signal
link |
02:06:11.600
that comes from the eye
link |
02:06:12.640
that comes from blinking
link |
02:06:15.120
that's not fully understood yet
link |
02:06:16.880
it's been in the lab
link |
02:06:18.160
it's been used quite a bit
link |
02:06:20.000
to study like the dilation
link |
02:06:21.600
of the pupil
link |
02:06:22.480
all those kinds of things
link |
02:06:23.440
are used to
link |
02:06:25.520
to infer workload
link |
02:06:27.280
cognitive load
link |
02:06:28.080
all those kinds of things
link |
02:06:29.680
but the pictures is murky
link |
02:06:32.480
it's not completely well understood
link |
02:06:34.240
especially in the wild
link |
02:06:35.440
how much signal you can get
link |
02:06:36.720
from the eye
link |
02:06:37.280
from the human face
link |
02:06:38.240
I've downloaded Joe Rogan's
link |
02:06:42.000
all of the podcasts he's ever done
link |
02:06:44.080
video
link |
02:06:45.520
you have the youtube bank
link |
02:06:47.520
I have the youtube bank
link |
02:06:48.640
for a reason that
link |
02:06:51.360
this was before he went
link |
02:06:53.680
with Spotify
link |
02:06:55.680
you own the archive
link |
02:06:56.800
there's PubMed
link |
02:06:57.600
and then there's the Joe Rogan experience
link |
02:06:59.680
owned by
link |
02:07:00.400
or maintained by Lex
link |
02:07:01.920
for my private collection
link |
02:07:05.120
no the reason I did it
link |
02:07:06.720
and I did the rigorous processing of it
link |
02:07:11.200
which is like
link |
02:07:13.920
I extracted all of the faces
link |
02:07:15.680
I did the really good
link |
02:07:16.880
blink track
link |
02:07:17.680
of the pupil tracking
link |
02:07:18.960
and the blink detection
link |
02:07:21.040
for the entirety
link |
02:07:22.720
I should say it's from episode
link |
02:07:24.400
like
link |
02:07:25.840
I forget what it is
link |
02:07:26.720
but it's like episode 900
link |
02:07:28.160
when they switched to 1080p video
link |
02:07:31.520
it was like much crappier video
link |
02:07:33.040
it's still kind of
link |
02:07:34.240
you log when there was marijuana consumption
link |
02:07:36.480
or when there was drinking
link |
02:07:37.840
when there's smoke
link |
02:07:38.640
I mean there's so many
link |
02:07:39.520
because that's gonna like
link |
02:07:41.120
just it won't throw off the data
link |
02:07:42.880
but it's relevant to the pupil data
link |
02:07:47.440
so let's just put it this way
link |
02:07:50.080
there's a lot of fascinating
link |
02:07:51.360
computer vision problems involved
link |
02:07:53.040
but I only kept long sequences of data
link |
02:07:57.040
where the eyes detect exceptionally well
link |
02:08:00.320
and I also removed people
link |
02:08:02.640
that were wearing glasses
link |
02:08:04.080
I removed
link |
02:08:05.120
there's certain people
link |
02:08:06.320
that have a way of moving their eyes
link |
02:08:12.800
and squinting
link |
02:08:14.000
where it's harder to infer
link |
02:08:17.600
like concrete blinks
link |
02:08:20.400
you know
link |
02:08:20.880
they'll kind of have a squint
link |
02:08:23.280
the whole time
link |
02:08:24.880
and their blink is very light
link |
02:08:27.440
it's very tough to know
link |
02:08:29.120
what's an actual blink
link |
02:08:32.320
so I wanted to
link |
02:08:32.720
then you got those baseball cap
link |
02:08:33.920
wearing guys
link |
02:08:34.400
baseball cap
link |
02:08:34.880
there are certain people that go on podcasts
link |
02:08:36.880
and wear baseball caps
link |
02:08:38.080
and don't reveal their
link |
02:08:39.680
I don't know if they realize it or not
link |
02:08:41.120
until it comes out
link |
02:08:42.240
but their face is completely obscured
link |
02:08:44.400
from vision
link |
02:08:45.520
and from a computer vision perspective
link |
02:08:47.680
people that wear makeup
link |
02:08:49.040
and usually women on their eyes
link |
02:08:51.200
it complicates things
link |
02:08:52.560
like eyelashes all complicate things
link |
02:08:54.720
so you can clean stuff up
link |
02:08:57.040
just so you have really crisp signal
link |
02:08:59.200
you don't have to
link |
02:09:00.160
you can deal with issues
link |
02:09:02.080
but there's so many hours
link |
02:09:03.680
of Joe Rogan video
link |
02:09:04.880
anyway I say all that
link |
02:09:06.480
because I was searching for
link |
02:09:09.200
an interesting personal experiment
link |
02:09:11.120
for me because
link |
02:09:12.960
I saw in drivers
link |
02:09:14.320
when I was looking at
link |
02:09:15.760
eye movement in drivers
link |
02:09:17.120
it seemed to indicate
link |
02:09:19.120
there seemed to be quite a lot of signal there
link |
02:09:21.520
that indicates
link |
02:09:23.200
amount of cognitive load
link |
02:09:25.360
but it's not clear
link |
02:09:26.560
if there's something conclusive
link |
02:09:28.720
but if there is some signal
link |
02:09:30.560
that's a really powerful one
link |
02:09:31.760
because eye movement
link |
02:09:32.800
can be detected in the wild
link |
02:09:35.120
like you and I sitting here
link |
02:09:36.320
I can detect eye movement really well
link |
02:09:38.320
pupil dilation
link |
02:09:39.440
is a really crappy indicator
link |
02:09:41.280
and it's luminance dependent
link |
02:09:42.560
like if I turn toward a light
link |
02:09:43.920
it's around
link |
02:09:45.200
it
link |
02:09:45.840
pupils change size
link |
02:09:47.200
depending on level of alertness
link |
02:09:48.560
arousal, autonomic arousal
link |
02:09:49.760
but also overall levels of luminance
link |
02:09:51.760
it's very very hard
link |
02:09:53.360
but there are
link |
02:09:54.800
I mean you're sitting on a gold mine
link |
02:09:57.680
because there is a lot of interest right now
link |
02:10:00.880
in measuring state
link |
02:10:02.880
through noncontact sensing
link |
02:10:04.240
yes
link |
02:10:04.880
heart rate variability
link |
02:10:05.680
through changes in skin tone
link |
02:10:07.600
just off a camera
link |
02:10:08.400
can you imagine that
link |
02:10:09.040
at the point where
link |
02:10:10.080
you just look at some video
link |
02:10:11.040
and you're like oh they're
link |
02:10:12.000
they're getting more stressed
link |
02:10:12.960
or worked up
link |
02:10:13.520
and they're not
link |
02:10:14.080
based on a heat map
link |
02:10:15.120
of some little patch on their face
link |
02:10:16.560
because everyone's gonna
link |
02:10:17.680
have this slight
link |
02:10:18.480
you know sort of
link |
02:10:19.360
compartmentalize it slightly differently
link |
02:10:20.880
but you can learn it pretty quickly
link |
02:10:22.320
we know this when someone's like
link |
02:10:23.360
giving a talk
link |
02:10:23.920
and we see them starting
link |
02:10:24.560
blotching on their
link |
02:10:26.800
neck you know
link |
02:10:27.280
this is the like
link |
02:10:28.640
the thesis defense response
link |
02:10:30.480
right
link |
02:10:31.120
we know it
link |
02:10:31.600
and it's a stressful situation
link |
02:10:33.840
because it's not passing
link |
02:10:35.120
your thesis defense is rough
link |
02:10:37.360
and we can see that
link |
02:10:38.640
but cameras can pick that up
link |
02:10:39.840
really easily
link |
02:10:40.720
at much lower levels
link |
02:10:42.080
than the
link |
02:10:42.640
the blatant blotching
link |
02:10:43.760
kind of effect
link |
02:10:44.720
and eye movements
link |
02:10:46.240
certainly are powerful indications
link |
02:10:49.040
of the state of the autonomic system
link |
02:10:51.360
so what do you
link |
02:10:52.400
do you think there are things
link |
02:10:54.560
from a high level
link |
02:10:55.440
that you can pick up
link |
02:10:56.160
from eye movement
link |
02:10:57.520
and blinking
link |
02:10:58.560
well blink frequency
link |
02:10:59.680
is going to increase
link |
02:11:00.960
as people get tired
link |
02:11:03.520
right
link |
02:11:04.160
I mean they've actually
link |
02:11:04.960
been teased a lot online
link |
02:11:06.160
because I don't blink much
link |
02:11:07.200
when I'll do a post
link |
02:11:08.480
and I
link |
02:11:08.880
and so I did a whole post
link |
02:11:10.000
about blinking
link |
02:11:10.800
about the science of blinking
link |
02:11:11.760
there's some data
link |
02:11:12.800
very strong data
link |
02:11:13.600
not from my lab
link |
02:11:14.720
that show that
link |
02:11:15.760
every time you blink
link |
02:11:16.560
it resets your perception of time
link |
02:11:18.160
they have people do these
link |
02:11:19.280
kind of track a
link |
02:11:21.120
kind of a Doppler like thing
link |
02:11:22.320
and anyway
link |
02:11:23.360
blinking resets your perception of time
link |
02:11:25.040
that there's a dopaminergic mechanism
link |
02:11:26.720
in a
link |
02:11:27.360
in the blink related circuitry of the brain
link |
02:11:30.400
when people are very alert
link |
02:11:31.200
they tend to not blink very much
link |
02:11:32.320
when we're sleepy
link |
02:11:32.880
we tend to blink more
link |
02:11:33.760
and our eyes tend to close
link |
02:11:35.120
now some people are more hooded
link |
02:11:36.800
in there
link |
02:11:37.200
the way their eyes sit
link |
02:11:38.320
some people
link |
02:11:39.120
are like this all the time
link |
02:11:40.400
there are some very famous people
link |
02:11:41.520
I'm not going to name them
link |
02:11:42.320
because I
link |
02:11:42.960
might run into them at some point
link |
02:11:44.720
who are like
link |
02:11:45.600
accused of being sociopaths
link |
02:11:46.800
because they don't blink very often
link |
02:11:48.560
but they might just have
link |
02:11:49.360
high levels of autonomic arousal
link |
02:11:50.880
they just don't blink very much
link |
02:11:53.200
also depends on how lubricated the eyes are
link |
02:11:54.800
so I think within individual
link |
02:11:56.720
yes
link |
02:11:57.440
you can get a lot of information
link |
02:11:59.040
I don't think we can say
link |
02:12:00.320
this person's blinking a lot
link |
02:12:01.600
they're lying
link |
02:12:02.240
this person or they're tired
link |
02:12:03.600
this person doesn't blink
link |
02:12:05.040
they're
link |
02:12:05.840
they're
link |
02:12:06.480
stressed
link |
02:12:07.040
I think
link |
02:12:07.600
if you
link |
02:12:08.480
understand that person's baseline
link |
02:12:10.240
you can get it
link |
02:12:10.960
and presumably
link |
02:12:12.480
well having been on the Joe Rogan experience
link |
02:12:14.160
I can say when you first sit down there
link |
02:12:15.440
if you've never been in there before
link |
02:12:16.960
you're on my day to say by the way
link |
02:12:18.160
oh my
link |
02:12:19.440
well I bet you I
link |
02:12:20.720
I will admit to being
link |
02:12:21.680
you know
link |
02:12:22.320
first time
link |
02:12:23.360
sitting down there
link |
02:12:23.840
I mean Joe is
link |
02:12:24.640
incredibly gracious
link |
02:12:25.600
make me feel very comfortable there
link |
02:12:27.040
but
link |
02:12:27.600
yeah it's a
link |
02:12:28.320
it's an intense experience
link |
02:12:30.000
it's a small space too
link |
02:12:31.200
anytime you enter a small space
link |
02:12:32.640
from a big space
link |
02:12:33.680
in this old studio
link |
02:12:36.080
is it
link |
02:12:36.400
you're familiar with
link |
02:12:37.920
there's a breaking in period
link |
02:12:39.040
where you're getting
link |
02:12:39.920
to know somebody
link |
02:12:40.720
and so I'm sure my levels of autonomic
link |
02:12:42.480
arousal
link |
02:12:43.520
front of the podcast
link |
02:12:44.480
we're higher than later
link |
02:12:45.840
so but once you have a baseline
link |
02:12:47.680
established
link |
02:12:48.240
you can get a lot of data
link |
02:12:49.840
on somebody
link |
02:12:50.800
simply from blinks
link |
02:12:52.640
some people averting gaze too
link |
02:12:54.640
if you have both people
link |
02:12:55.760
that's really powerful
link |
02:12:56.720
this is the holy grail
link |
02:12:58.000
another holy grail of neuroscience
link |
02:12:59.920
we've mainly looked at subjects
link |
02:13:01.520
in isolation
link |
02:13:02.320
isolation
link |
02:13:02.880
there hasn't been
link |
02:13:03.760
much brain imaging of two people
link |
02:13:05.440
in interacting
link |
02:13:06.560
or even
link |
02:13:07.360
in animal models of two mice
link |
02:13:08.960
or two monkeys interacting
link |
02:13:10.240
it's all like person scanner
link |
02:13:12.640
bite bar
link |
02:13:13.360
I mean if you've ever been in one
link |
02:13:14.160
of these scanner
link |
02:13:14.640
you're like in a bite bar
link |
02:13:16.080
it's very medieval
link |
02:13:17.520
and so you think
link |
02:13:18.400
in the interaction
link |
02:13:19.440
there's actually
link |
02:13:20.720
you can almost study them
link |
02:13:22.000
as a single brain
link |
02:13:23.040
or as a single system
link |
02:13:24.240
the two brains are a single system
link |
02:13:26.160
I think with AI
link |
02:13:26.960
it's highly correlated
link |
02:13:27.920
yeah maybe
link |
02:13:28.400
are your blinks triggering my blinks
link |
02:13:29.920
like you know
link |
02:13:30.560
are your non blink epochs
link |
02:13:32.960
extending my non blink epochs
link |
02:13:35.120
there's a fascinating space
link |
02:13:36.720
to explore there
link |
02:13:37.920
and no one's done it
link |
02:13:39.920
and because everyone
link |
02:13:41.200
let the
link |
02:13:42.080
Joe Rogan Experience archive
link |
02:13:43.600
disappear
link |
02:13:44.320
except for you
link |
02:13:45.120
you grab
link |
02:13:45.680
well actually
link |
02:13:46.080
did you get the comments too
link |
02:13:47.040
because I think the comments were
link |
02:13:48.560
almost as entertaining
link |
02:13:49.520
as the conversation
link |
02:13:50.720
you know what you just made me
link |
02:13:51.840
realize with the couplings
link |
02:13:52.960
I have a better data
link |
02:13:53.920
than the Joe Rogan podcast
link |
02:13:55.360
with high resolution video
link |
02:13:56.800
which is the raw video
link |
02:13:58.080
for this podcast
link |
02:13:59.440
so for example
link |
02:14:00.800
both cameras right now
link |
02:14:01.920
are recording you and I
link |
02:14:03.360
full full feed
link |
02:14:05.280
the final result
link |
02:14:06.080
will switch cameras back and forth
link |
02:14:07.520
but I have the full feed
link |
02:14:08.880
right
link |
02:14:09.520
so I can have the blinking
link |
02:14:10.960
for both you and I the whole time
link |
02:14:12.560
I bet you people trigger
link |
02:14:13.840
blinks
link |
02:14:14.640
and in one another
link |
02:14:16.240
you know
link |
02:14:16.640
and there's also like the
link |
02:14:18.560
the simplest way to think about
link |
02:14:19.600
the blinks
link |
02:14:20.240
and the attentional thing
link |
02:14:21.440
and the alertness is
link |
02:14:22.800
two fighters in the
link |
02:14:24.080
in the standoff
link |
02:14:25.360
there's this whole lore around
link |
02:14:26.720
who blinks first
link |
02:14:27.760
yeah
link |
02:14:28.000
it's like they blink first
link |
02:14:28.960
well
link |
02:14:29.440
what are what are we really asking
link |
02:14:30.640
they're asking whether or not
link |
02:14:31.920
one person can maintain focus
link |
02:14:35.040
longer than the other person
link |
02:14:36.640
which
link |
02:14:38.080
is an important parameter
link |
02:14:39.280
it's not the only parameter
link |
02:14:40.480
but it's an important parameter
link |
02:14:42.560
and so that blinking contest
link |
02:14:43.920
even though they don't square off
link |
02:14:45.120
as a blinking contest
link |
02:14:46.560
it's well known that the first to
link |
02:14:48.160
blink
link |
02:14:48.800
is revealing something about their
link |
02:14:50.480
capacity to hold attention
link |
02:14:53.440
you've started an amazing podcast
link |
02:14:55.920
that we mentioned a few times
link |
02:14:57.840
people should definitely check it out
link |
02:14:59.680
it's called the Huberman Lab Podcast
link |
02:15:02.480
it
link |
02:15:04.000
it does your
link |
02:15:05.200
it's basically
link |
02:15:07.440
it embodies
link |
02:15:08.880
the personality of Andrew Huberman
link |
02:15:10.880
which is like
link |
02:15:12.480
makes science accessible
link |
02:15:15.840
but also
link |
02:15:18.720
fascinating
link |
02:15:19.760
and giving it like
link |
02:15:22.320
what do you call it
link |
02:15:23.440
you give tools for everyday life
link |
02:15:26.000
meaning
link |
02:15:27.280
it kind of grounds it like
link |
02:15:29.200
what the hell does this mean for my life
link |
02:15:32.000
but then also does the beauty of science
link |
02:15:34.560
at the same time
link |
02:15:35.280
so I love
link |
02:15:36.800
I love both the
link |
02:15:38.400
the rigor and the openness of the whole
link |
02:15:40.240
thing
link |
02:15:40.480
plus the whole corrections thing
link |
02:15:41.680
as I mentioned
link |
02:15:42.720
anyway
link |
02:15:43.840
what's been the hardest part
link |
02:15:46.080
of this whole process
link |
02:15:47.440
you're one of
link |
02:15:48.080
already
link |
02:15:48.880
one of
link |
02:15:51.200
the only
link |
02:15:52.400
and one of the best
link |
02:15:54.240
science
link |
02:15:54.720
podcasters out there
link |
02:15:56.480
so in that process
link |
02:15:58.560
what's been the hardest
link |
02:15:59.680
what's been the most exciting part
link |
02:16:01.600
wow
link |
02:16:02.160
well first of all
link |
02:16:02.880
thanks for the
link |
02:16:04.160
kind words about the podcast
link |
02:16:05.440
it was inspired by you
link |
02:16:06.960
I
link |
02:16:07.920
absolutely
link |
02:16:08.640
it's
link |
02:16:10.000
that's no BS
link |
02:16:10.960
I
link |
02:16:11.440
the last time
link |
02:16:12.480
we met to do an interview for your podcast
link |
02:16:14.640
we talked a little bit about it and
link |
02:16:16.080
you gave me the
link |
02:16:18.240
subtle
link |
02:16:18.880
nudge that maybe there was a
link |
02:16:20.480
there was a podcast there
link |
02:16:21.600
and I thought about it and I left
link |
02:16:22.880
and I was just like
link |
02:16:23.600
I gotta do this thing
link |
02:16:24.640
and
link |
02:16:25.040
and you really gave me the encouragement to do it
link |
02:16:26.720
and your podcast
link |
02:16:28.000
this podcast has really forged the way
link |
02:16:30.160
you've been
link |
02:16:31.200
tip of the spear on
link |
02:16:32.960
serious
link |
02:16:34.160
scientific
link |
02:16:34.800
intellectual
link |
02:16:35.600
yet fun
link |
02:16:36.240
accessible conversation
link |
02:16:37.520
and so
link |
02:16:38.480
I
link |
02:16:39.200
as
link |
02:16:40.240
your colleague
link |
02:16:41.120
and friend
link |
02:16:42.160
and but
link |
02:16:43.520
just even if
link |
02:16:44.480
those things weren't true
link |
02:16:45.360
like this this podcast was
link |
02:16:47.200
and is the inspiration
link |
02:16:48.400
there's no question
link |
02:16:49.040
so much
link |
02:16:49.600
yeah
link |
02:16:49.920
I really like 100%
link |
02:16:52.000
and
link |
02:16:52.960
when I decided to do the podcast
link |
02:16:54.880
the
link |
02:16:55.120
Hebrew Lab podcast
link |
02:16:56.320
I thought really long and hard about what
link |
02:16:58.080
would work best
link |
02:16:58.800
and would be most beneficial
link |
02:17:00.160
turned out to be the hardest thing
link |
02:17:02.080
which is to stay on a single topic
link |
02:17:04.400
for three or four or more episodes
link |
02:17:06.480
before switching to a new topic
link |
02:17:08.560
because
link |
02:17:09.920
I know from the experience of
link |
02:17:12.160
university and teaching in university
link |
02:17:14.080
as you know
link |
02:17:15.680
as well that
link |
02:17:18.000
there's always the temptation to pivot to something else
link |
02:17:20.640
but the
link |
02:17:21.680
drilling into something really deeply
link |
02:17:23.440
is where the
link |
02:17:24.080
where the gems reside
link |
02:17:25.760
and
link |
02:17:26.480
the
link |
02:17:26.800
the challenge has been
link |
02:17:28.320
how to make it interesting
link |
02:17:29.440
how to keep people on board
link |
02:17:31.200
how to give people tools along the way
link |
02:17:34.320
but also stay close to the scientific data
link |
02:17:37.520
I like to think that we're headed in the right direction
link |
02:17:39.600
it still needs to evolve
link |
02:17:41.040
but
link |
02:17:41.280
that's been a challenge
link |
02:17:44.160
I think
link |
02:17:45.920
I also am challenged by the fact that there's a tremendous
link |
02:17:48.800
range of backgrounds of listeners
link |
02:17:50.720
so some people have asked for
link |
02:17:52.640
more names
link |
02:17:53.440
like more bits and parts of the nervous system
link |
02:17:55.600
and cellular molecular mechanisms
link |
02:17:57.440
and all that kind of thing
link |
02:17:58.480
and other people said
link |
02:17:59.360
I don't understand any of that stuff
link |
02:18:00.800
but I think I'm keeping up and so
link |
02:18:02.640
unlike a university course where there are prerequisites
link |
02:18:05.200
and everyone's coming to the table
link |
02:18:06.560
with more or less the same knowledge
link |
02:18:08.240
I have a very limited sense of what the audience
link |
02:18:10.480
knows and doesn't know
link |
02:18:11.760
so that's why I incorporated the feature
link |
02:18:13.440
of the comment section on YouTube
link |
02:18:15.680
being a source of feedback
link |
02:18:18.000
and I do a
link |
02:18:19.520
kind of an office hours like episode
link |
02:18:21.840
every third or fourth episode
link |
02:18:23.040
where I address common questions
link |
02:18:25.360
and I think that the podcast space
link |
02:18:27.360
in my mind
link |
02:18:28.960
at least for the sort of podcast I'm doing
link |
02:18:31.600
needed a venue for the listeners
link |
02:18:34.400
to be a
link |
02:18:35.440
more integral part of the experience
link |
02:18:37.120
as opposed to just commenting on what they liked
link |
02:18:39.440
or didn't like. So while I like to hear what people
link |
02:18:41.760
liked and didn't like
link |
02:18:42.480
I also really like to hear about
link |
02:18:44.080
hey tell me more about
link |
02:18:45.840
temperature minimums
link |
02:18:46.720
and how they can be used to phase shifts
link |
02:18:48.000
circadian rhythms or whatever it is
link |
02:18:50.160
and I realized that I'm probably losing
link |
02:18:51.760
some people along the way
link |
02:18:52.800
but hopefully
link |
02:18:54.160
at the end of each month
link |
02:18:56.080
and because of the way that the episodes are archived
link |
02:18:58.880
people will come away feeling
link |
02:19:00.560
as if they've learned a ton
link |
02:19:01.760
and they have tools that they can implement
link |
02:19:03.600
and perhaps most importantly
link |
02:19:04.800
that they're starting to think scientifically
link |
02:19:07.520
about the tons of other stuff that's out there.
link |
02:19:10.640
So that's been the challenge
link |
02:19:12.080
and it's still really early days
link |
02:19:14.400
but and of course
link |
02:19:16.640
there's also an intentional challenge
link |
02:19:18.080
I realize that people are busy
link |
02:19:19.360
not everyone has two hours
link |
02:19:20.800
to listen to a podcast
link |
02:19:22.080
about jet lag and shift work
link |
02:19:24.000
and raising kids and sleep
link |
02:19:26.160
and that kind of thing
link |
02:19:27.040
I'm not raising kids
link |
02:19:27.760
but I did a whole thing
link |
02:19:28.640
about babies and sleep with
link |
02:19:30.800
and how parents can manage their sleep
link |
02:19:32.320
when kids aren't sleeping.
link |
02:19:33.840
So it's been
link |
02:19:34.480
I'm hacking through the jungle
link |
02:19:37.600
of all this stuff
link |
02:19:39.040
but and I'll come right back to
link |
02:19:41.440
my inspiration
link |
02:19:42.560
and my north star on this
link |
02:19:47.280
is getting to a point where
link |
02:19:50.880
the audience that listens to this
link |
02:19:53.440
feels the same way that I do
link |
02:19:54.640
when I listen to your podcast.
link |
02:19:56.320
Thank you so much.
link |
02:19:57.040
Like when I turn into your podcast
link |
02:19:58.800
I'm going to embarrass you a little bit more
link |
02:20:00.000
by complimenting you a little bit more
link |
02:20:01.440
but not out of a sadistic thing
link |
02:20:05.520
but just because
link |
02:20:06.560
when I tune into your podcast
link |
02:20:08.080
or Joe's podcast
link |
02:20:09.680
I have the same sensation
link |
02:20:11.040
that other people have
link |
02:20:11.920
like I feel like
link |
02:20:13.760
I'm home of sorts
link |
02:20:15.360
I'm like I'm familiar with the space
link |
02:20:17.280
and I'd like people to feel comfortable
link |
02:20:19.520
in the space that is the
link |
02:20:20.640
Huber and Lab podcast
link |
02:20:21.520
whatever that ends up being.
link |
02:20:23.280
Yeah that's the magic of podcasting
link |
02:20:25.760
it's like I feel like
link |
02:20:26.640
I'm part of your life now
link |
02:20:28.000
in a way that as a fan
link |
02:20:29.440
that I wouldn't be otherwise
link |
02:20:32.160
and you know like
link |
02:20:33.680
I never was able to have that
link |
02:20:35.440
with Carl Sagan for example
link |
02:20:38.720
and that's a whole another level
link |
02:20:40.720
of connection with a human being
link |
02:20:42.880
that gets you excited
link |
02:20:44.160
and then I share your excitement
link |
02:20:46.160
about different topics in neuroscience
link |
02:20:49.840
or just biology in general
link |
02:20:54.640
and then I don't have to actually
link |
02:20:56.240
understand everything you're saying
link |
02:20:57.680
to to really enjoy it
link |
02:21:00.800
so that's the magical podcasting
link |
02:21:03.120
is like you can go through
link |
02:21:04.640
like 10 minutes of
link |
02:21:05.600
understanding what the hell
link |
02:21:06.560
a person is saying
link |
02:21:08.240
and then you enjoy the excitement
link |
02:21:11.440
and then you reconnect to a thing
link |
02:21:12.880
that you do understand
link |
02:21:14.000
what they're saying
link |
02:21:15.280
and you know that's
link |
02:21:18.080
that personal coupled
link |
02:21:19.840
with the scientific rigor
link |
02:21:21.840
is magic
link |
02:21:22.480
and finding the right
link |
02:21:23.920
it's exploration
link |
02:21:24.800
like Joe found something
link |
02:21:26.240
that works for comedians
link |
02:21:27.600
which is like
link |
02:21:29.200
you know having a good laugh
link |
02:21:30.800
but also every once in a while
link |
02:21:32.720
talking seriously
link |
02:21:33.920
about difficult topics
link |
02:21:36.400
the scientific space
link |
02:21:38.480
it was unclear
link |
02:21:40.160
you haven't had guests on
link |
02:21:41.600
not yet
link |
02:21:42.400
but uh
link |
02:21:43.120
maybe you'll come on as a
link |
02:21:44.320
that's wrong
link |
02:21:44.960
I was gonna invite
link |
02:21:45.840
I was gonna try to force myself in there
link |
02:21:48.080
I am
link |
02:21:48.640
I'm officially inviting you now
link |
02:21:50.080
will you come on the podcast?
link |
02:21:50.960
I would love to
link |
02:21:51.840
I would love to
link |
02:21:52.400
fantastic
link |
02:21:53.120
but it was it was hard
link |
02:21:54.640
it's still a little bit difficult
link |
02:21:57.120
to tell people
link |
02:21:59.600
that no you don't get it
link |
02:22:00.880
we're not gonna talk for 10 minutes
link |
02:22:03.760
we're gonna talk for
link |
02:22:05.280
three or four hours
link |
02:22:07.200
it's a different for scientists
link |
02:22:08.880
for like
link |
02:22:09.760
they're like what
link |
02:22:10.560
I don't what are we gonna talk about?
link |
02:22:12.160
they think it's like the NPR interview
link |
02:22:14.160
yes
link |
02:22:14.880
and they don't realize
link |
02:22:16.960
first of all
link |
02:22:18.320
I think at his best
link |
02:22:19.520
if you're like at the level of Joe Rogan
link |
02:22:21.760
who I think is an excellent
link |
02:22:22.960
conversationalist
link |
02:22:25.600
it you just lose track of time
link |
02:22:27.360
it can be three four or five hours
link |
02:22:28.960
and you lose track of time
link |
02:22:30.240
I'm still not there
link |
02:22:31.760
I find that
link |
02:22:32.720
it's still painful
link |
02:22:34.000
like the conversation
link |
02:22:34.960
is still challenging sometimes
link |
02:22:36.800
you don't lose
link |
02:22:37.680
quite as much of track of time
link |
02:22:39.200
it's still an intellectual effort
link |
02:22:40.640
and I think it might always be
link |
02:22:42.240
as it would be with you
link |
02:22:43.280
because you're talking about
link |
02:22:44.480
difficult topics
link |
02:22:45.680
maybe that require more brain
link |
02:22:47.200
you're not
link |
02:22:48.160
just shooting the shit
link |
02:22:49.600
with like a Brian Red Band
link |
02:22:51.040
or somebody like comedians
link |
02:22:52.240
are just joking
link |
02:22:53.360
well it's like
link |
02:22:54.000
remember those shows
link |
02:22:56.160
like where
link |
02:22:57.360
those shows where someone would come out
link |
02:22:59.120
and like spin plates
link |
02:23:00.160
and they're running back and forth
link |
02:23:01.360
and so
link |
02:23:02.320
really good scientific discussion
link |
02:23:04.640
is like that
link |
02:23:05.520
you have to be maintaining
link |
02:23:07.280
three or four different logical arguments
link |
02:23:09.040
and jumping back and forth
link |
02:23:10.560
it's occasionally
link |
02:23:11.280
getting to like a real streak of linearity
link |
02:23:13.760
but
link |
02:23:14.320
as we found today
link |
02:23:15.920
that typically
link |
02:23:16.640
there's three or four different things
link |
02:23:17.760
that we're bouncing back and forth from
link |
02:23:18.960
and that requires
link |
02:23:19.920
a lot of updating of these
link |
02:23:21.680
you know for brain circuits
link |
02:23:22.880
it's not
link |
02:23:23.440
it's not a passive listening experience
link |
02:23:25.760
but
link |
02:23:26.400
I like to think that the brain likes that
link |
02:23:28.720
I do want to ask
link |
02:23:30.720
because we all
link |
02:23:31.840
I don't want to forget
link |
02:23:33.920
the question came up to me
link |
02:23:36.160
is your podcast
link |
02:23:38.640
has the same kind of rigor
link |
02:23:40.400
that I think like a Dan Carlin podcast
link |
02:23:42.960
has
link |
02:23:43.200
who's a history podcaster
link |
02:23:46.000
well that's a
link |
02:23:46.720
definitely a compliment
link |
02:23:47.840
thank you
link |
02:23:48.400
it feels like
link |
02:23:48.720
Dan's Dan's way
link |
02:23:50.160
you know
link |
02:23:50.480
he's something for me to aspire to
link |
02:23:52.160
so he goes through hell to prepare
link |
02:23:54.320
he spends
link |
02:23:55.200
months preparing
link |
02:23:56.240
it feels like
link |
02:23:58.240
you've had to really prepare for your podcast
link |
02:24:00.960
I definitely
link |
02:24:02.000
prepare hard
link |
02:24:02.960
how
link |
02:24:03.840
does that
link |
02:24:04.480
are you okay
link |
02:24:06.640
yeah I
link |
02:24:07.360
I mean how much effort does that take
link |
02:24:09.360
it feels like a conference presentation
link |
02:24:11.440
yeah so we record once a week
link |
02:24:13.200
and in the intervening time
link |
02:24:15.280
I
link |
02:24:16.080
listen to
link |
02:24:19.120
many
link |
02:24:20.080
university level lectures
link |
02:24:21.280
so NIH has a
link |
02:24:23.440
a bank of lectures
link |
02:24:25.040
I have some sources of
link |
02:24:26.800
recorded university seminars
link |
02:24:28.880
I'm trying to find the
link |
02:24:30.480
the points of intersection
link |
02:24:31.840
so like for four episodes on sleep
link |
02:24:33.520
it's not like I'm going to
link |
02:24:34.480
just regurgitate a popular book
link |
02:24:36.400
or take one lecture and just
link |
02:24:38.000
you know
link |
02:24:38.480
poach the content
link |
02:24:39.280
I'm going to
link |
02:24:39.840
find the overlap
link |
02:24:41.280
in the different elements
link |
02:24:43.360
I also
link |
02:24:44.240
so what I'll do is I'll generally
link |
02:24:46.560
read
link |
02:24:47.120
10 or 15
link |
02:24:47.840
to papers
link |
02:24:48.560
and generally those are good reviews
link |
02:24:50.960
annual reviews
link |
02:24:51.920
and a review of neuroscience
link |
02:24:53.040
annual review of physiology
link |
02:24:54.320
those kinds of things
link |
02:24:55.360
I'll chase a few references
link |
02:24:56.720
I'll listen to some YouTube videos
link |
02:24:58.160
but of university level lectures
link |
02:25:00.400
and then
link |
02:25:01.360
I throw all that on a whiteboard
link |
02:25:03.280
usually while I work out in the morning
link |
02:25:05.600
I'll just be working out
link |
02:25:06.720
I have a gym in my house
link |
02:25:07.760
and I'll just put up
link |
02:25:09.200
all these random ideas
link |
02:25:10.160
I want to cover that
link |
02:25:10.960
dreams hallucination
link |
02:25:12.240
and then I take that
link |
02:25:13.440
and I start to eliminate
link |
02:25:14.560
I draw lines
link |
02:25:15.200
between the common points of intersection
link |
02:25:17.280
and then from that
link |
02:25:18.560
I distill out and outline
link |
02:25:21.280
and then I basically
link |
02:25:23.520
think about what I want to say
link |
02:25:24.960
on my walks with my dog
link |
02:25:27.120
and I bother a couple people
link |
02:25:28.480
and blab to them
link |
02:25:29.200
so I would say each podcast
link |
02:25:30.480
yeah I put in 10 to 15 hours
link |
02:25:32.640
at least of passive listening
link |
02:25:34.880
preparation
link |
02:25:35.520
and maybe five or six
link |
02:25:36.800
of active preparation
link |
02:25:38.640
so I do prepare quite a lot
link |
02:25:40.800
but it has a certain reward component
link |
02:25:43.280
for me
link |
02:25:43.760
I to come up at the end
link |
02:25:45.600
with something that's
link |
02:25:46.400
somewhat crystallized
link |
02:25:48.000
for me is just so satisfying
link |
02:25:50.080
it feel like there's something
link |
02:25:51.440
about my dopamine circuits
link |
02:25:52.720
that just love that
link |
02:25:54.400
and the only pain is that
link |
02:25:57.200
a year later
link |
02:25:57.920
after I've talked about the stuff
link |
02:25:59.200
a bunch of times
link |
02:26:00.000
it's so much more succinct
link |
02:26:02.560
but that's life
link |
02:26:04.080
at some point
link |
02:26:04.560
you got to pull the trigger
link |
02:26:05.600
well I don't know what you think
link |
02:26:08.240
but for me YouTube
link |
02:26:10.480
is that's why I'm sad that Joe left YouTube
link |
02:26:13.280
there's a archival nature to YouTube
link |
02:26:15.840
that's kind of magical
link |
02:26:16.800
and so I'm really glad you're now
link |
02:26:20.240
you're doing a lot of educational content
link |
02:26:23.600
on Instagram before
link |
02:26:25.280
but now
link |
02:26:27.200
doing this podcast thing on YouTube
link |
02:26:29.280
it's like a
link |
02:26:30.080
you know
link |
02:26:30.480
it's like Feynman lectures
link |
02:26:32.320
like
link |
02:26:32.640
well that's very
link |
02:26:33.760
I'm not saying every podcast
link |
02:26:35.760
but there will be
link |
02:26:37.200
you will have some
link |
02:26:38.080
I could already tell
link |
02:26:39.280
there'll be some lectures
link |
02:26:42.720
which are like
link |
02:26:44.080
definitive
link |
02:26:45.200
like really special ones
link |
02:26:47.200
that's the hope
link |
02:26:48.080
and there's some aspect
link |
02:26:50.240
that's archival to YouTube
link |
02:26:51.680
where at least I hope
link |
02:26:53.520
like 20 years from now
link |
02:26:54.720
some kid is going to watch
link |
02:26:57.040
watch a lecture of yours
link |
02:26:58.160
and you know
link |
02:27:00.160
it'll create the next Nobel Prize
link |
02:27:02.320
right
link |
02:27:02.640
it'll create
link |
02:27:03.440
it'll create another
link |
02:27:05.600
you know
link |
02:27:06.160
a dream that then becomes a reality
link |
02:27:08.160
and then that's a
link |
02:27:09.040
that's a special thing
link |
02:27:10.640
that the YouTube provides
link |
02:27:12.400
I'm really excited that you're on YouTube
link |
02:27:14.000
and at the same time
link |
02:27:15.360
I'm excited to see where this thing goes
link |
02:27:17.280
because
link |
02:27:19.520
it seems like change is the
link |
02:27:21.920
the cliche thing
link |
02:27:22.800
the change is the only constant
link |
02:27:24.320
in these times
link |
02:27:25.200
because
link |
02:27:27.120
you're paving
link |
02:27:28.640
with this podcast
link |
02:27:29.680
with this creativity
link |
02:27:31.040
what you were doing on Instagram as well
link |
02:27:32.800
you're paving the new era
link |
02:27:34.800
of what it means to do science
link |
02:27:37.040
so actively doing research
link |
02:27:39.360
and actively explaining that research
link |
02:27:41.520
in new media
link |
02:27:42.400
it's
link |
02:27:42.800
it's very interesting
link |
02:27:44.240
just inspired
link |
02:27:45.520
genuinely inspired by you
link |
02:27:47.120
we had this discussion last time
link |
02:27:49.120
after the podcast recording
link |
02:27:51.360
and it was
link |
02:27:52.320
it's clear that communication of science
link |
02:27:54.480
cannot be left
link |
02:27:55.680
to the
link |
02:27:56.320
the
link |
02:27:56.960
existing institutions
link |
02:27:58.560
and I'm going to talk about universities
link |
02:27:59.680
I just mean that the
link |
02:28:00.800
science section of newspapers is
link |
02:28:03.680
sometimes there's some gems there but
link |
02:28:05.760
generally it goes
link |
02:28:07.440
you know
link |
02:28:08.000
and
link |
02:28:08.640
yeah I think you really have to know a field
link |
02:28:10.400
in order to extract the best things from that field
link |
02:28:13.600
and
link |
02:28:14.160
my hope is that other
link |
02:28:15.520
practicing scientists
link |
02:28:16.720
and people finishing their PhD
link |
02:28:18.320
and postdoc
link |
02:28:19.040
and people who are running labs
link |
02:28:20.240
or working at companies
link |
02:28:21.120
will start to do this
link |
02:28:22.080
I mean how amazing would it be for instance
link |
02:28:24.080
if
link |
02:28:24.640
if someone at Neuralink
link |
02:28:27.760
was
link |
02:28:28.800
giving us hints about
link |
02:28:30.400
not necessarily what they're developing
link |
02:28:31.920
because that's
link |
02:28:32.720
complicated for all sorts of reasons but
link |
02:28:35.520
would
link |
02:28:36.080
talk to us about
link |
02:28:38.320
what the real challenge is
link |
02:28:39.840
of building
link |
02:28:41.120
futuristic
link |
02:28:42.000
brain machine interface
link |
02:28:43.120
are like
link |
02:28:43.600
and
link |
02:28:44.000
and what the
link |
02:28:44.720
what it means to understand a clinical problem
link |
02:28:46.880
and address it
link |
02:28:47.520
I mean
link |
02:28:47.840
I
link |
02:28:48.560
my hope is somebody there
link |
02:28:49.520
might eventually do that
link |
02:28:50.640
that somebody in the world of
link |
02:28:52.960
chemistry
link |
02:28:53.600
or synthetic materials
link |
02:28:55.120
or whatever it is
link |
02:28:55.840
will do this in a way that I could understand
link |
02:28:57.600
because I don't have
link |
02:28:58.480
expertise in those
link |
02:28:59.840
I think
link |
02:29:00.960
it would be marvelous
link |
02:29:02.160
and
link |
02:29:03.040
you were tip of the spear
link |
02:29:03.920
you were out first
link |
02:29:05.040
and
link |
02:29:05.920
I'm just
link |
02:29:07.840
happily trying to
link |
02:29:09.040
to move along in the direction I'm going
link |
02:29:10.640
but I
link |
02:29:11.040
I think the future of science education
link |
02:29:13.040
is online
link |
02:29:15.520
and
link |
02:29:16.080
I think that's going to be scary to a lot of
link |
02:29:18.160
existing institutions
link |
02:29:19.280
but it's not about
link |
02:29:20.400
disrupting anything
link |
02:29:21.440
it's just about trying to do things better
link |
02:29:23.200
yeah
link |
02:29:24.000
you know some of the best
link |
02:29:26.560
interviews
link |
02:29:28.640
some of the best
link |
02:29:29.440
investigative journalism
link |
02:29:30.800
is done by people inside the field
link |
02:29:33.520
comes to mind a guy by the name of Elon Musk
link |
02:29:36.000
who
link |
02:29:37.440
who uh
link |
02:29:38.080
I love the the possibility
link |
02:29:39.520
that he gets a poll
link |
02:29:40.400
it's there for that interview
link |
02:29:41.920
but uh
link |
02:29:42.320
he grilled the crap out of Vlad
link |
02:29:44.000
the uh CEO
link |
02:29:45.680
Robin Hood
link |
02:29:46.240
I'm not sure if you know
link |
02:29:46.960
oh and um
link |
02:29:48.400
on the clubhouse
link |
02:29:49.280
on clubhouse the other night
link |
02:29:50.240
yeah I saw you guys in there
link |
02:29:51.760
I was kept out
link |
02:29:52.560
I wasn't quick enough
link |
02:29:53.680
my thumb doesn't go fast enough
link |
02:29:55.200
so I was
link |
02:29:55.680
and I wasn't about to sit in the waiting room
link |
02:29:57.360
have you tried that social network
link |
02:29:58.720
by the way the clubhouse
link |
02:29:59.760
I've gone in there a few times
link |
02:30:01.280
and check some things out
link |
02:30:02.880
I'm there
link |
02:30:03.760
I have a few questions about it that
link |
02:30:05.680
like if I'm in there
link |
02:30:06.720
where
link |
02:30:07.280
it
link |
02:30:07.840
how one
link |
02:30:09.360
can participate
link |
02:30:10.160
or not participate
link |
02:30:11.120
I
link |
02:30:11.520
I like being a fly on the wall
link |
02:30:12.800
for those conversations
link |
02:30:13.760
I've been very curious
link |
02:30:14.560
as to what's going on in there
link |
02:30:15.600
oh it's quite
link |
02:30:16.560
I mean I have a lot of thoughts
link |
02:30:18.080
I've
link |
02:30:18.640
maybe it's useful to comment
link |
02:30:20.800
I also have a discord server
link |
02:30:23.280
that uh
link |
02:30:24.080
you know has
link |
02:30:25.440
a few tens of thousands of people on it
link |
02:30:27.520
and then
link |
02:30:28.160
they have
link |
02:30:29.040
also a voice
link |
02:30:30.400
chat capability
link |
02:30:31.760
so there's these get togethers
link |
02:30:33.920
and I
link |
02:30:34.720
I was using it in
link |
02:30:35.760
in the spring and summer
link |
02:30:37.600
like actively
link |
02:30:38.960
on those voice discussions
link |
02:30:40.480
and it's
link |
02:30:41.360
anywhere from 10 to like a thousand people
link |
02:30:44.800
all together in voice
link |
02:30:46.320
like you
link |
02:30:47.200
anyone can speak
link |
02:30:48.160
anytime right
link |
02:30:49.040
but there's this weird dynamic
link |
02:30:50.960
that people stay quiet
link |
02:30:52.080
only one person speaks at a time
link |
02:30:53.600
interesting
link |
02:30:54.000
because they're all like respectful
link |
02:30:55.360
and it's a community of like
link |
02:30:58.000
like
link |
02:30:58.560
fundamentally respectful people
link |
02:31:00.080
even though they're all anonymous
link |
02:31:01.680
so like
link |
02:31:02.400
except like me and a few others
link |
02:31:04.080
it's all anonymous people
link |
02:31:06.080
so interesting
link |
02:31:06.960
and it works
link |
02:31:07.680
it's
link |
02:31:08.160
but the
link |
02:31:09.120
the magical thing to me
link |
02:31:10.880
about
link |
02:31:12.000
that community
link |
02:31:14.000
was how intimate
link |
02:31:15.360
voice only communication can be
link |
02:31:18.400
it felt
link |
02:31:19.600
as intimate as
link |
02:31:21.680
like a
link |
02:31:22.640
like a small get together
link |
02:31:24.560
at a home
link |
02:31:25.600
with close friends
link |
02:31:27.600
it felt like there's a calmness to it
link |
02:31:29.760
and you're revealing things about
link |
02:31:32.240
about you know
link |
02:31:33.600
somebody suffering from depression
link |
02:31:35.360
or being suicidal
link |
02:31:36.960
so those are the dark things
link |
02:31:38.480
or being super excited
link |
02:31:39.520
getting a new girlfriend
link |
02:31:40.640
or boyfriend
link |
02:31:41.920
like just the depth of human experience
link |
02:31:45.040
shared on voice
link |
02:31:46.480
without video
link |
02:31:47.760
is uh
link |
02:31:48.720
I was really surprised how intimate that is
link |
02:31:50.640
for human connection
link |
02:31:51.920
especially in this time of COVID
link |
02:31:53.360
it replaced that
link |
02:31:54.320
so that
link |
02:31:55.120
so that
link |
02:31:55.680
so just to give you some context
link |
02:31:57.360
there's something there
link |
02:31:58.560
there's definitely something there
link |
02:32:00.000
one thing that
link |
02:32:00.800
comes to mind is
link |
02:32:01.840
when like in clubhouse
link |
02:32:02.960
you have your little icon
link |
02:32:04.160
so they don't actually
link |
02:32:04.960
you don't see your face moving
link |
02:32:06.240
I think when people see their own image
link |
02:32:08.720
it puts them in a state of self consciousness
link |
02:32:11.440
that is eliminated
link |
02:32:12.880
by just having an icon
link |
02:32:14.000
or an avatar
link |
02:32:14.720
yes
link |
02:32:15.200
right
link |
02:32:15.520
so like zoom
link |
02:32:16.960
is dreadful
link |
02:32:18.400
because if
link |
02:32:19.520
I'm not used to talking to people
link |
02:32:20.880
and seeing a little image of myself
link |
02:32:22.320
staring back at me in the mirror
link |
02:32:24.240
and
link |
02:32:25.200
it's just
link |
02:32:25.840
I know there are ways that you can adjust that
link |
02:32:27.440
but it's really awful
link |
02:32:29.200
and I think that
link |
02:32:30.400
when I get on zooms now
link |
02:32:31.520
I say hello
link |
02:32:32.080
and then I shut down
link |
02:32:33.280
the video component
link |
02:32:34.400
and then I just talk in the end
link |
02:32:35.520
I come back on
link |
02:32:36.320
just to show that
link |
02:32:37.200
still there
link |
02:32:37.680
it's told me
link |
02:32:38.720
but
link |
02:32:39.280
I think that
link |
02:32:40.480
voice only is really interesting
link |
02:32:42.000
Eddie Chang
link |
02:32:42.720
would be an interesting person
link |
02:32:43.680
to talk to about this
link |
02:32:44.480
because he understands
link |
02:32:45.440
so much about
link |
02:32:46.000
how inflection communicates
link |
02:32:48.160
emotionality
link |
02:32:48.960
in deeper state
link |
02:32:50.000
but there's a balance between
link |
02:32:52.160
I think just like you said
link |
02:32:53.280
there's the privacy
link |
02:32:55.840
somehow
link |
02:32:57.680
allows for the intimacy
link |
02:32:58.960
so like being able to
link |
02:32:59.920
to
link |
02:33:00.640
uh
link |
02:33:01.040
as opposed to putting on an act
link |
02:33:03.120
which I realized we do
link |
02:33:04.320
when we're visually presenting ourselves
link |
02:33:06.320
in remote communication
link |
02:33:08.240
but I think that
link |
02:33:08.880
there's so few places
link |
02:33:09.920
where people can actually
link |
02:33:11.600
communicate without
link |
02:33:12.720
the fear of penalty
link |
02:33:14.160
yes
link |
02:33:14.800
those
link |
02:33:15.360
that's
link |
02:33:16.720
you know
link |
02:33:17.120
woefully
link |
02:33:18.160
absent these days
link |
02:33:19.200
and so maybe people are just
link |
02:33:20.560
relieved to be in a place
link |
02:33:21.760
where they feel like
link |
02:33:22.880
I can say what I want
link |
02:33:24.000
or not say anything
link |
02:33:25.280
and it's okay
link |
02:33:26.320
and so
link |
02:33:26.880
so clubhouse
link |
02:33:27.760
as you to answer your kind of
link |
02:33:29.280
question is
link |
02:33:31.040
there was a big improvement
link |
02:33:32.080
to me over discord
link |
02:33:33.040
which is
link |
02:33:33.680
it has tears
link |
02:33:34.640
is
link |
02:33:35.360
it has a stage
link |
02:33:36.640
where people
link |
02:33:37.680
the person that created the room
link |
02:33:38.960
can invite people up
link |
02:33:40.240
that would like to speak potentially
link |
02:33:42.480
have the opportunity to speak
link |
02:33:43.680
and then there's a bigger audience
link |
02:33:45.760
that don't get a chance to speak
link |
02:33:47.360
unless they
link |
02:33:48.240
click raise their hand
link |
02:33:49.360
and then get called on
link |
02:33:50.880
so there's like a tier
link |
02:33:52.960
system
link |
02:33:53.440
that allows for there to be
link |
02:33:56.320
a group of like
link |
02:33:57.440
five, 10, 20, 30 people talking
link |
02:34:00.160
and a lot larger
link |
02:34:01.680
amount in the audience
link |
02:34:03.200
which in discord
link |
02:34:04.000
is the problem
link |
02:34:04.480
is that everybody could talk
link |
02:34:06.000
and the other thing about clubhouse
link |
02:34:07.520
is everybody
link |
02:34:09.440
is strongly encouraged
link |
02:34:10.400
to represent themselves
link |
02:34:11.440
so you're using your real name
link |
02:34:12.960
it's not anonymous
link |
02:34:14.800
and how many people were in that
link |
02:34:16.720
GameStop discussion the other day
link |
02:34:18.640
they currently
link |
02:34:21.680
limit rooms to five thousand
link |
02:34:23.200
so I'm sure maxed out of five thousand
link |
02:34:25.120
there's a lot of overflow rooms
link |
02:34:26.800
this is the cool thing
link |
02:34:28.400
about clubhouse
link |
02:34:29.520
really big people were on there
link |
02:34:31.280
all tuned in
link |
02:34:32.080
and having a conversation
link |
02:34:33.440
having all from
link |
02:34:35.040
you know
link |
02:34:35.840
all these different worlds
link |
02:34:37.920
being able to connect
link |
02:34:39.600
even though
link |
02:34:40.240
without the niceties
link |
02:34:41.520
of like arranging the meeting
link |
02:34:43.120
you could just show up
link |
02:34:44.080
and leave
link |
02:34:44.640
which is nice
link |
02:34:45.760
but the reason I'm
link |
02:34:48.320
for my lessons from discord
link |
02:34:51.120
I'm going to mostly stay away
link |
02:34:53.200
from clubhouse
link |
02:34:54.000
and I think
link |
02:34:54.960
we're going there under another name
link |
02:34:57.600
right
link |
02:34:59.840
I'll pretend I know the actual
link |
02:35:01.360
your actual name one
link |
02:35:02.400
yeah
link |
02:35:04.160
is I've learned
link |
02:35:05.040
it's quite addicting
link |
02:35:07.280
it's a time sink
link |
02:35:08.400
it's so
link |
02:35:09.040
the intimacy of it
link |
02:35:10.880
is you find yourself wasting
link |
02:35:12.800
quite a bit of time on there
link |
02:35:14.080
it pulls you in
link |
02:35:15.440
well it's interesting
link |
02:35:16.640
the
link |
02:35:17.840
which
link |
02:35:18.560
in sort of going back to the podcast
link |
02:35:20.640
or earlier we were talking about books
link |
02:35:22.320
or creating a technology
link |
02:35:24.400
one thing that's absolutely clear
link |
02:35:25.840
is that anything
link |
02:35:27.120
that's easy to reproduce
link |
02:35:28.880
is probably not worth
link |
02:35:31.120
much effort
link |
02:35:32.480
and time
link |
02:35:33.280
yes
link |
02:35:33.840
right I mean
link |
02:35:35.840
most posts
link |
02:35:38.000
could be easily reproduced
link |
02:35:39.120
you just repost them
link |
02:35:40.160
yeah
link |
02:35:40.560
so
link |
02:35:41.840
now there are some original posts
link |
02:35:43.440
that for which the attribution
link |
02:35:44.800
goes to the original person
link |
02:35:46.000
and it's clear it came from you
link |
02:35:47.920
but anything that can be easily
link |
02:35:49.440
reproduced is
link |
02:35:50.320
doesn't really expand us very much
link |
02:35:52.640
as individuals
link |
02:35:53.520
or or as groups
link |
02:35:55.120
and most of what I see on social media
link |
02:35:56.880
is stuff that could
link |
02:35:58.320
is is purely reproduced
link |
02:36:00.240
yes right
link |
02:36:01.360
but
link |
02:36:03.680
I think clubhouse
link |
02:36:04.720
I mean
link |
02:36:05.200
it could be that some real magic
link |
02:36:06.640
emerges on there
link |
02:36:08.160
so in moderation
link |
02:36:09.520
it could be good
link |
02:36:10.080
the magic is
link |
02:36:11.360
this is another thing
link |
02:36:12.400
that I've found
link |
02:36:13.760
through COVID
link |
02:36:14.960
that maybe you can think about
link |
02:36:17.280
is live
link |
02:36:20.240
I used to be
link |
02:36:21.360
not understand the appeal
link |
02:36:23.200
of live video
link |
02:36:24.400
or live connection
link |
02:36:25.440
or like in this clubhouse
link |
02:36:26.960
live events
link |
02:36:28.720
because clubhouse
link |
02:36:30.400
is technically
link |
02:36:31.520
for the most part
link |
02:36:32.240
it's not supposed to be recorded
link |
02:36:33.920
most people don't record
link |
02:36:35.200
most conversations
link |
02:36:36.400
it's a one time live event
link |
02:36:38.560
and there's a magic to that
link |
02:36:40.080
there is
link |
02:36:40.800
that's not captured by
link |
02:36:43.440
like your podcast
link |
02:36:44.480
or
link |
02:36:45.360
my podcast
link |
02:36:46.240
produced video
link |
02:36:47.200
that's like
link |
02:36:48.000
recorded
link |
02:36:49.200
like packaged up
link |
02:36:50.800
well anything can happen
link |
02:36:52.240
it's that anything can happen
link |
02:36:54.080
and those
link |
02:36:54.880
that's the kind of thing
link |
02:36:55.680
like live concerts
link |
02:36:57.200
and I definitely
link |
02:36:58.560
I love live music
link |
02:37:00.320
and it's the idea that
link |
02:37:01.840
because you can always listen
link |
02:37:02.560
to the album
link |
02:37:03.280
actually the album usually
link |
02:37:04.240
sounds cleaner and better
link |
02:37:05.680
but it's just this idea
link |
02:37:06.640
that anything can happen
link |
02:37:08.160
and then you listen to like
link |
02:37:09.280
the parts
link |
02:37:10.160
I don't know you
link |
02:37:11.520
like Castello did something weird
link |
02:37:13.600
your dog did something weird
link |
02:37:15.040
and then you have to go
link |
02:37:16.240
god damn it
link |
02:37:16.880
you have to go to the kitchen
link |
02:37:18.080
or something
link |
02:37:18.880
to get something
link |
02:37:19.600
and then you come back
link |
02:37:20.560
and it's funny
link |
02:37:22.160
I watched a live video like that
link |
02:37:23.760
of people
link |
02:37:24.480
and I'll be there for the whole time
link |
02:37:26.240
I'll wait for them
link |
02:37:27.040
to go to the kitchen
link |
02:37:27.920
and come back
link |
02:37:28.640
it's not like I tune out
link |
02:37:29.920
right
link |
02:37:30.560
and that makes it like
link |
02:37:31.520
a richer experience
link |
02:37:32.640
for some reason
link |
02:37:33.360
it's weird
link |
02:37:34.000
well it humanizes it
link |
02:37:35.200
yeah humanizes it
link |
02:37:36.320
and I think there is this
link |
02:37:37.440
weird effect of
link |
02:37:38.560
whether or not
link |
02:37:38.960
it's a podcast
link |
02:37:39.680
Instagram
link |
02:37:40.160
or Twitter
link |
02:37:40.640
or anything else
link |
02:37:41.120
there's kind of like
link |
02:37:42.880
two people shouting
link |
02:37:43.680
into a tunnel
link |
02:37:44.320
and then a bunch of people
link |
02:37:45.200
with ears at the other end
link |
02:37:46.240
of those tunnels
link |
02:37:46.960
and shouting
link |
02:37:47.600
some things back
link |
02:37:48.400
and you know that's
link |
02:37:49.920
that's kind of the format we're in
link |
02:37:52.000
I think
link |
02:37:52.800
I'll check out Clubhouse again
link |
02:37:54.000
I've gone in there
link |
02:37:54.480
a few times during the day
link |
02:37:55.520
and I was surprised to see
link |
02:37:56.480
how many people were in there
link |
02:37:57.360
in the middle of the day
link |
02:37:58.400
I was like
link |
02:37:58.800
don't know
link |
02:37:59.040
aren't these people
link |
02:37:59.520
supposed to be working
link |
02:38:01.200
but maybe that is their work
link |
02:38:02.240
well be very careful
link |
02:38:03.280
about the
link |
02:38:05.360
the time sinker of it
link |
02:38:06.960
but yeah
link |
02:38:07.440
if you want to
link |
02:38:08.000
you and I go together
link |
02:38:08.960
we'll have a good conversation
link |
02:38:10.160
on there
link |
02:38:10.720
but one of the things
link |
02:38:11.760
you have to figure out
link |
02:38:13.200
I don't still know
link |
02:38:14.400
how to do it
link |
02:38:15.200
but how to exit
link |
02:38:17.200
which is like
link |
02:38:18.240
isn't there the
link |
02:38:18.880
leave quietly button
link |
02:38:19.840
yeah
link |
02:38:20.400
no
link |
02:38:20.640
but like when you and I
link |
02:38:21.760
are on stage
link |
02:38:22.480
having a conversation
link |
02:38:25.440
like
link |
02:38:25.520
and okay
link |
02:38:26.240
you and I is harder
link |
02:38:27.680
but like
link |
02:38:29.280
you really
link |
02:38:30.080
if it's just you and I
link |
02:38:31.120
then it's the usual
link |
02:38:32.160
human communication
link |
02:38:33.120
of like
link |
02:38:33.600
all right
link |
02:38:34.000
I gotta go
link |
02:38:35.200
like
link |
02:38:35.680
but when it's like
link |
02:38:36.560
four people
link |
02:38:38.400
you don't want to interrupt
link |
02:38:39.600
everyone
link |
02:38:40.000
announced you're leaving
link |
02:38:40.880
you just have to
link |
02:38:41.440
I mean
link |
02:38:41.920
there's a weird dynamic
link |
02:38:43.040
that I haven't quite figured out
link |
02:38:45.440
of
link |
02:38:45.760
the etiquette isn't clear
link |
02:38:46.960
the etiquette is not clear
link |
02:38:48.160
well what it
link |
02:38:49.840
the etiquette on different platforms
link |
02:38:51.920
and how that changes
link |
02:38:52.880
is really interesting
link |
02:38:54.000
you know
link |
02:38:54.320
how youtube has one etiquette
link |
02:38:56.240
which is kind of
link |
02:38:57.120
it's a lot of harshness
link |
02:38:58.160
is tolerated on youtube
link |
02:38:59.360
video
link |
02:38:59.920
comments
link |
02:39:01.120
twitter seems a bit
link |
02:39:02.160
harsher than instagram
link |
02:39:03.840
instagram there's kind
link |
02:39:04.720
yeah
link |
02:39:04.800
it seems to be a little nice
link |
02:39:06.000
people are really nice
link |
02:39:07.440
people are really nice
link |
02:39:08.720
on instagram
link |
02:39:09.280
for the most part
link |
02:39:11.200
except for those
link |
02:39:12.720
phishing things
link |
02:39:13.440
I actually know someone
link |
02:39:14.480
who had their
link |
02:39:15.680
quite sizable account
link |
02:39:16.800
poached by those
link |
02:39:17.600
copyright
link |
02:39:18.400
they come in with those like
link |
02:39:19.600
you violated
link |
02:39:20.800
copyright thing
link |
02:39:21.600
there's all sorts of harshness
link |
02:39:22.800
in there
link |
02:39:23.360
that if you think about it
link |
02:39:24.320
in the real world
link |
02:39:25.200
I like to think about
link |
02:39:26.080
instagram as if it was the real
link |
02:39:27.280
world
link |
02:39:28.160
someone that comes over
link |
02:39:29.120
is basically saying like
link |
02:39:30.320
hey
link |
02:39:30.640
can I hold your wallet
link |
02:39:31.600
and go into the bank
link |
02:39:32.320
and I'll get some money out for you
link |
02:39:33.520
and like
link |
02:39:34.000
but there's this trust
link |
02:39:35.280
based on the format it comes in
link |
02:39:37.120
that it can almost get past your
link |
02:39:38.640
radar
link |
02:39:39.040
unless you're suspicious
link |
02:39:40.880
if
link |
02:39:41.200
if you took
link |
02:39:42.320
comments like
link |
02:39:43.040
you know
link |
02:39:43.440
you post get a lot of comments
link |
02:39:44.800
and use it
link |
02:39:45.280
you just walk past
link |
02:39:46.880
500 random people on the street
link |
02:39:48.480
and just listen to what they say
link |
02:39:50.480
it
link |
02:39:51.040
like that's ridiculous
link |
02:39:51.920
I don't have time for that
link |
02:39:53.440
but the comments somehow
link |
02:39:54.400
take on this importance
link |
02:39:55.440
and this relevance
link |
02:39:56.720
and you feel
link |
02:39:58.000
we feel obligated
link |
02:39:59.120
to give them value
link |
02:40:00.400
right
link |
02:40:00.960
and so
link |
02:40:01.840
the online communities
link |
02:40:03.520
the rules really are different
link |
02:40:06.560
and they evolve with time
link |
02:40:07.440
which is fascinating
link |
02:40:08.080
with clubhouse
link |
02:40:08.800
it's a new social network
link |
02:40:09.920
so it's evolving
link |
02:40:10.960
and people are figuring out
link |
02:40:12.560
as you go
link |
02:40:13.680
and the same thing
link |
02:40:14.240
with podcasting
link |
02:40:15.520
on video
link |
02:40:16.320
and like scientific podcasting
link |
02:40:18.080
this is the cool thing
link |
02:40:18.880
when I look at
link |
02:40:19.840
what you've created
link |
02:40:21.920
I'm learning
link |
02:40:22.720
I'm thinking like
link |
02:40:23.600
hmm
link |
02:40:24.160
that's interesting to do it this way
link |
02:40:26.240
because like
link |
02:40:26.800
nobody
link |
02:40:27.280
I have nobody to copy
link |
02:40:29.200
not many people to copy
link |
02:40:30.480
you know what I mean
link |
02:40:31.040
but you threw out an idea
link |
02:40:32.400
I'm not going to put it out here now
link |
02:40:33.680
because I
link |
02:40:34.160
I don't want to
link |
02:40:35.120
because knowing you
link |
02:40:35.920
you'll hold yourself to it
link |
02:40:37.040
no matter what
link |
02:40:37.520
but when we talked about
link |
02:40:39.680
this issue
link |
02:40:41.040
the challenge of staying
link |
02:40:42.000
on a particular topic for a while
link |
02:40:43.840
I mean
link |
02:40:44.160
you do have some cool stuff
link |
02:40:45.280
brewing in there
link |
02:40:46.000
oh no no no
link |
02:40:46.480
that's separate from this format
link |
02:40:47.920
and I love your interview format
link |
02:40:49.840
but
link |
02:40:51.120
when you told me about that
link |
02:40:51.840
I got really excited
link |
02:40:52.880
that you might go forward with
link |
02:40:53.920
I'm not going to tell your audience
link |
02:40:54.960
what it is
link |
02:40:55.760
but I will say this
link |
02:40:56.880
it is super cool
link |
02:40:58.560
I would have never thought about it
link |
02:41:00.080
it's distinctly different
link |
02:41:00.880
than what I'm doing
link |
02:41:01.520
or what Lex is currently doing
link |
02:41:03.200
and if you decide
link |
02:41:05.440
to do that podcast
link |
02:41:07.360
I will be your first
link |
02:41:08.640
and your number one fan
link |
02:41:09.840
and I know there are going to be millions of other
link |
02:41:11.680
people interested in that
link |
02:41:12.400
would be amazing
link |
02:41:13.840
so if you decide to go forward
link |
02:41:15.840
with the idea
link |
02:41:18.080
that would be awesome
link |
02:41:19.120
I was going to say what it is
link |
02:41:20.080
but now I'm not going to
link |
02:41:21.040
because that's even more interesting
link |
02:41:24.160
I brought up the clubhouse thing
link |
02:41:26.240
actually in Elon
link |
02:41:28.320
because I just wanted to
link |
02:41:30.880
get your thoughts about
link |
02:41:32.640
something he's said a few times
link |
02:41:34.720
to me and in general
link |
02:41:37.120
is that he's under a huge amount of stress
link |
02:41:40.000
and I'm thinking of
link |
02:41:42.400
doing a startup
link |
02:41:43.680
now it kind of
link |
02:41:44.800
I'm not
link |
02:41:45.680
thinking about all of this
link |
02:41:47.840
because I
link |
02:41:48.480
you know I enjoy podcasts
link |
02:41:49.600
I enjoy science
link |
02:41:51.360
but he says that
link |
02:41:52.640
his life is
link |
02:41:54.160
basically hell
link |
02:41:55.760
that's very difficult
link |
02:41:57.040
he looks happy
link |
02:41:58.080
but he's probably very good at
link |
02:41:59.680
he's fulfilled
link |
02:42:01.040
he's fulfilled
link |
02:42:02.160
but the stress levels
link |
02:42:04.080
the constant
link |
02:42:06.000
fires that he has to put out
link |
02:42:08.320
and he says that most people
link |
02:42:09.680
wouldn't want to be me
link |
02:42:11.520
and that
link |
02:42:13.040
basically the
link |
02:42:13.840
reason he does what he does is
link |
02:42:16.240
because
link |
02:42:17.520
there's probably something wrong with him
link |
02:42:19.760
like it's not a
link |
02:42:21.840
he can't help it
link |
02:42:23.040
but do that
link |
02:42:24.000
it's kind of beautiful
link |
02:42:25.520
in a kind of
link |
02:42:26.560
Russian
link |
02:42:27.360
massacistic way
link |
02:42:29.520
I just wonder
link |
02:42:30.800
the stress
link |
02:42:31.600
I mean I'm sure you can
link |
02:42:33.840
you can imagine the kind of stress
link |
02:42:35.360
he's under
link |
02:42:35.920
because
link |
02:42:36.560
so it's running three plus companies
link |
02:42:39.840
and there's constant
link |
02:42:41.120
and he says that
link |
02:42:44.800
you know every single meeting
link |
02:42:45.760
is not about like
link |
02:42:48.000
should we install a coffee maker
link |
02:42:49.920
in the
link |
02:42:51.040
in the kitchen
link |
02:42:51.680
it's like
link |
02:42:54.080
you know this rocket
link |
02:42:54.960
is going to blow up
link |
02:42:56.160
and I don't
link |
02:42:56.720
we're all fucked
link |
02:42:57.600
I don't know what to do
link |
02:42:59.040
and we have to
link |
02:42:59.840
you have to fix
link |
02:43:01.120
you have to fix a real like
link |
02:43:02.800
big problems that are
link |
02:43:03.920
and like how do you
link |
02:43:06.240
oh yeah
link |
02:43:06.640
how do you deal with that
link |
02:43:07.600
what do you think about that kind of life
link |
02:43:09.280
one is there a way to
link |
02:43:11.200
you know walk through that fire
link |
02:43:13.920
and two
link |
02:43:15.760
should you
link |
02:43:17.200
should you walk through that fire
link |
02:43:19.280
well I mean
link |
02:43:20.240
without knowing
link |
02:43:21.040
I've never met Elon
link |
02:43:22.000
but certainly
link |
02:43:22.720
we have
link |
02:43:23.440
common friends
link |
02:43:24.720
in you
link |
02:43:25.760
and in
link |
02:43:26.720
other people that
link |
02:43:28.160
he worked with long ago
link |
02:43:29.520
in the PayPal days
link |
02:43:32.080
all of whom speak very highly of him
link |
02:43:33.920
and show
link |
02:43:35.600
express immense admiration
link |
02:43:37.360
for the number of things
link |
02:43:38.560
that he can maintain
link |
02:43:39.920
I think it's fair to say that
link |
02:43:41.360
he accomplishes more
link |
02:43:43.040
before 9 a.m. than
link |
02:43:44.880
most people do in
link |
02:43:45.920
in
link |
02:43:47.520
a decade
link |
02:43:48.320
it's clear
link |
02:43:49.200
and that what he does
link |
02:43:50.400
would dissolve most people
link |
02:43:51.680
into a puddle of tears
link |
02:43:53.280
mostly because of this whole thing
link |
02:43:56.320
about the brain working hard
link |
02:43:59.200
equates to
link |
02:44:00.400
thinking about duration path
link |
02:44:01.600
and outcome
link |
02:44:02.160
and anticipating outcomes
link |
02:44:03.760
given A, B, C or D
link |
02:44:04.960
a lot of
link |
02:44:05.760
very scripted linear thinking
link |
02:44:07.440
and prediction
link |
02:44:09.200
and that is hard
link |
02:44:10.880
it's stressful
link |
02:44:11.520
it requires intense
link |
02:44:12.800
neurochemical output
link |
02:44:14.160
and he's doing that
link |
02:44:14.880
for multiple projects
link |
02:44:16.320
so presumably
link |
02:44:17.360
he's buffered himself
link |
02:44:18.560
from the coffee maker issues
link |
02:44:20.160
and the little tiny issues
link |
02:44:21.280
but he is it
link |
02:44:22.240
himself
link |
02:44:22.880
unless there's something I don't know
link |
02:44:24.000
he's walking around
link |
02:44:24.880
in a biological system
link |
02:44:26.480
he is
link |
02:44:28.000
that's
link |
02:44:28.400
allegedly
link |
02:44:29.120
yes
link |
02:44:29.440
yeah allegedly
link |
02:44:30.240
so
link |
02:44:31.600
and I don't want to reveal too much here
link |
02:44:33.760
but I have
link |
02:44:34.320
a common
link |
02:44:38.000
a co worker
link |
02:44:38.720
and colleague
link |
02:44:39.280
through some contract work I do
link |
02:44:41.200
that
link |
02:44:42.160
what I can tell you
link |
02:44:42.880
is that he's accessing
link |
02:44:44.160
the best resources
link |
02:44:45.280
in terms of how to optimize
link |
02:44:46.720
his biology
link |
02:44:48.400
and
link |
02:44:49.600
he's thinking about that
link |
02:44:50.880
not just for himself
link |
02:44:51.840
but for all of Neuralink
link |
02:44:53.360
because I think
link |
02:44:54.880
I'm not trying to dodge the question
link |
02:44:56.000
but I think
link |
02:44:57.520
there's the scale of the individual
link |
02:44:59.440
but then there's the companies
link |
02:45:00.720
that he's creating
link |
02:45:02.640
and you've got people there
link |
02:45:03.760
that
link |
02:45:04.560
you could imagine
link |
02:45:05.280
if they're working
link |
02:45:06.080
at 10% better capacity
link |
02:45:07.680
or can focus
link |
02:45:08.720
5% better for
link |
02:45:10.640
20% of the day
link |
02:45:12.240
you're looking at a
link |
02:45:13.520
enormous increase
link |
02:45:14.560
in productivity
link |
02:45:15.680
and a reduction
link |
02:45:16.800
in the time to reach goals
link |
02:45:18.000
which will
link |
02:45:19.120
reduce the amount of stress
link |
02:45:20.320
presumably on Elon
link |
02:45:21.280
unless he goes and starts
link |
02:45:22.160
another endeavor
link |
02:45:23.600
right
link |
02:45:24.000
so I think
link |
02:45:25.680
it's
link |
02:45:26.320
certainly not healthy
link |
02:45:27.280
for most people
link |
02:45:28.720
it seems to be
link |
02:45:29.520
where he gets his dopamine hits
link |
02:45:31.200
I'm also
link |
02:45:31.920
really struck by the fact
link |
02:45:32.960
that he has a family
link |
02:45:34.240
and he has
link |
02:45:35.120
you know
link |
02:45:35.440
he's got kids growing up
link |
02:45:37.200
and a relationship
link |
02:45:38.080
and all that
link |
02:45:38.560
so
link |
02:45:39.040
it's super impressive
link |
02:45:41.040
I think that
link |
02:45:42.960
I don't know how old is Elon
link |
02:45:44.720
yes
link |
02:45:45.280
40
link |
02:45:45.840
I'm pushing 50
link |
02:45:47.200
I think 48
link |
02:45:48.880
so
link |
02:45:49.280
even more impressive
link |
02:45:51.120
because
link |
02:45:51.840
you know
link |
02:45:52.400
many people who've been at
link |
02:45:53.920
exceedingly high output
link |
02:45:55.360
for a decade or more
link |
02:45:56.720
don't
link |
02:45:57.520
do well
link |
02:45:58.480
their system breaks down
link |
02:45:59.840
well this is what he was
link |
02:46:00.960
saying he
link |
02:46:03.200
actually
link |
02:46:04.560
I mean I don't listen to
link |
02:46:05.760
all of his interviews
link |
02:46:06.640
but
link |
02:46:07.520
on that live
link |
02:46:08.640
on the clubhouse
link |
02:46:09.440
he mentioned that
link |
02:46:11.200
he was kind of worried
link |
02:46:13.200
it's interesting
link |
02:46:14.720
he was worried that
link |
02:46:15.840
like
link |
02:46:16.320
sometimes
link |
02:46:18.640
what I think he said is
link |
02:46:20.240
I'm worried that
link |
02:46:22.480
at some point
link |
02:46:23.120
my brain is just going to fail
link |
02:46:26.000
because of the amount
link |
02:46:26.960
of load it's under
link |
02:46:28.080
like how much I have to
link |
02:46:31.680
think through
link |
02:46:33.040
throughout the day
link |
02:46:33.920
like how many
link |
02:46:36.000
problems you have to think
link |
02:46:37.200
through
link |
02:46:38.080
like you know
link |
02:46:38.640
it's like puzzles
link |
02:46:39.680
it's constant puzzle solving
link |
02:46:41.120
I would be concerned about
link |
02:46:42.880
taking somebody
link |
02:46:43.760
who's in that regime
link |
02:46:44.720
and suddenly putting them
link |
02:46:45.840
into a regime
link |
02:46:46.560
where they don't have
link |
02:46:47.280
enough to bite down into
link |
02:46:48.320
it's like my bulldog Costello
link |
02:46:49.680
he's happiest
link |
02:46:50.320
when chewing and tugging
link |
02:46:51.440
that big old neck of his
link |
02:46:53.040
and he is just not going to
link |
02:46:54.080
become a retriever
link |
02:46:54.960
he's not going to
link |
02:46:55.920
that he does well
link |
02:46:57.440
and gets his dopamine hits
link |
02:46:58.880
from chewing and pulling
link |
02:47:00.640
and it seems like Ilan has
link |
02:47:02.720
ended up where he is
link |
02:47:04.160
by way of his
link |
02:47:05.920
natural leanings
link |
02:47:07.680
unless there's a back story
link |
02:47:09.360
that's
link |
02:47:10.960
trauma based
link |
02:47:11.680
or something
link |
02:47:12.080
and I don't even begin
link |
02:47:13.440
to think that there is
link |
02:47:15.200
it seems that he has
link |
02:47:16.640
he's one of those rare individuals
link |
02:47:18.160
in history
link |
02:47:18.560
that has an immense drive
link |
02:47:20.400
to create in
link |
02:47:21.520
all these different domains
link |
02:47:22.560
I'm just saying the obvious here
link |
02:47:24.240
but it seems like
link |
02:47:25.520
that's what makes him tick
link |
02:47:26.640
I mean, you're doing an awful lot too
link |
02:47:28.640
well, but the problem is
link |
02:47:30.640
not really
link |
02:47:32.880
the problem is
link |
02:47:34.400
about I've been
link |
02:47:35.520
on the verge of pulling the trigger
link |
02:47:36.960
on starting a company
link |
02:47:39.440
which will increase
link |
02:47:40.400
the workload significantly
link |
02:47:43.040
and I'm attracted to that
link |
02:47:46.800
because of a dream I have
link |
02:47:48.960
but it's a little bit scary
link |
02:47:51.840
because it can destroy you
link |
02:47:54.880
in a lot of ways
link |
02:47:56.160
there's two sources of destruction
link |
02:47:58.960
so one source
link |
02:48:01.600
is
link |
02:48:03.840
I've for the first time
link |
02:48:05.520
in my life
link |
02:48:06.240
a few
link |
02:48:08.720
months ago
link |
02:48:09.440
I think
link |
02:48:10.240
have gotten
link |
02:48:12.160
it feels like such a noob thing to say
link |
02:48:13.920
but I've gotten some hate
link |
02:48:15.120
on the internet
link |
02:48:16.720
no
link |
02:48:17.520
I know right
link |
02:48:18.160
no
link |
02:48:18.720
but like
link |
02:48:19.440
I am such an idiot
link |
02:48:20.480
I'm so naive to
link |
02:48:22.240
it was super
link |
02:48:24.320
I had the question
link |
02:48:25.440
that I guess a lot of people
link |
02:48:27.520
have when they get hate
link |
02:48:28.720
on the internet
link |
02:48:29.200
it's like
link |
02:48:30.800
it's like
link |
02:48:31.280
mom
link |
02:48:31.840
why are these people
link |
02:48:32.800
making up stuff about me
link |
02:48:35.120
you know
link |
02:48:35.280
that kind of feeling of like
link |
02:48:36.720
why why are you saying that
link |
02:48:38.880
and
link |
02:48:40.240
and the
link |
02:48:41.600
the reason I mentioned that is like
link |
02:48:43.280
well if you go
link |
02:48:44.080
if you want to go
link |
02:48:45.040
and start a business
link |
02:48:46.240
and do
link |
02:48:48.480
as I think people should
link |
02:48:49.600
when they start a big
link |
02:48:51.840
ambitious business
link |
02:48:53.360
really try to go big
link |
02:48:55.680
like
link |
02:48:56.480
what does success look like
link |
02:48:57.920
in terms of your emotional journey
link |
02:49:00.640
you're going to have a lot of people who
link |
02:49:03.280
make up stuff about you
link |
02:49:05.040
who say
link |
02:49:06.000
negative
link |
02:49:06.720
majority hopefully
link |
02:49:07.760
if you do a good job
link |
02:49:09.120
will be supportive
link |
02:49:10.160
and
link |
02:49:10.800
but there's still going to be
link |
02:49:11.840
this army of people
link |
02:49:13.600
and like
link |
02:49:14.160
that that was scary to me
link |
02:49:16.240
because of how
link |
02:49:17.760
much emotional impact
link |
02:49:19.280
they had on me
link |
02:49:20.400
well and I also know
link |
02:49:22.000
a little bit
link |
02:49:22.720
I have some glimpse into the fact that
link |
02:49:24.320
you put your heart and soul
link |
02:49:25.680
into everything you do
link |
02:49:27.200
you're not a
link |
02:49:28.240
you're lighthearted about
link |
02:49:29.680
certain things
link |
02:49:30.560
but
link |
02:49:30.960
you're even lighthearted about being
link |
02:49:33.040
full gas pedal
link |
02:49:34.560
24 seven
link |
02:49:35.840
there's kind of this
link |
02:49:37.440
you know
link |
02:49:38.160
was it
link |
02:49:40.160
was it
link |
02:49:40.560
Laird Hamilton always says
link |
02:49:41.840
you know the big wave surfers
link |
02:49:43.760
he always says
link |
02:49:44.320
you know
link |
02:49:45.200
bright light dark shadow
link |
02:49:47.120
you know
link |
02:49:47.520
and I think
link |
02:49:48.880
it's that intensity
link |
02:49:50.640
and when you do that
link |
02:49:51.600
and then suddenly
link |
02:49:53.040
people are starting to like
link |
02:49:54.720
throw some paint
link |
02:49:55.600
on your picture
link |
02:49:56.240
you're like
link |
02:49:56.800
wait hold
link |
02:49:57.600
you know
link |
02:49:57.840
you're going max capacity
link |
02:49:59.920
but I think the company
link |
02:50:01.280
is an interesting one
link |
02:50:02.080
because you've talked about
link |
02:50:03.200
doing this company before
link |
02:50:04.960
I've been afraid
link |
02:50:05.600
I just not been pulling trigger
link |
02:50:08.560
out of fear
link |
02:50:09.200
because I enjoy this life
link |
02:50:10.320
this is
link |
02:50:10.880
this is
link |
02:50:11.200
I'm starting to interrupt
link |
02:50:11.920
but it's ultimately
link |
02:50:13.120
this question of
link |
02:50:14.480
taking a leap
link |
02:50:15.840
is like
link |
02:50:17.760
say you're in academia
link |
02:50:19.040
like you're at MIT
link |
02:50:20.160
you're
link |
02:50:20.960
I really love doing research at MIT
link |
02:50:22.960
I really love that life
link |
02:50:25.440
why take a leap out
link |
02:50:27.040
you know
link |
02:50:27.360
but I did
link |
02:50:28.960
because it's been a dream
link |
02:50:30.320
but now
link |
02:50:31.040
accidentally along the way
link |
02:50:33.120
I found this podcasting thing
link |
02:50:35.680
which is also really fulfilling
link |
02:50:37.760
and you know
link |
02:50:39.040
it's like
link |
02:50:39.440
why take a leap
link |
02:50:40.960
because you have a huge
link |
02:50:42.800
lust for life
link |
02:50:44.080
yeah
link |
02:50:44.560
I mean that's you
link |
02:50:45.360
I mean
link |
02:50:46.080
sometimes when I'm on the internet
link |
02:50:47.280
and I think is this
link |
02:50:48.080
you hear about it
link |
02:50:48.960
like
link |
02:50:49.280
oh it's addicting
link |
02:50:50.160
you know
link |
02:50:50.560
YouTube's addicting all that
link |
02:50:52.000
actually
link |
02:50:52.800
sometimes I think
link |
02:50:53.760
maybe that's true
link |
02:50:54.560
but a lot of times
link |
02:50:55.200
I just think
link |
02:50:56.000
there's so much here
link |
02:50:57.680
there's a lot of
link |
02:50:58.560
garbage
link |
02:50:59.360
but there's so many gems
link |
02:51:01.600
out there in the world now
link |
02:51:02.720
it's almost
link |
02:51:03.680
like
link |
02:51:04.640
sure how you allocate time is key
link |
02:51:06.480
but
link |
02:51:07.040
I
link |
02:51:08.640
I think you can do it all
link |
02:51:11.040
yeah
link |
02:51:11.440
maybe not five more things
link |
02:51:12.880
yeah yes
link |
02:51:13.440
but all
link |
02:51:14.000
yes
link |
02:51:14.400
and one thing I just had this idea
link |
02:51:16.080
and this is not grounded
link |
02:51:17.040
in any scientific paper
link |
02:51:18.320
but I think the answer might come to you
link |
02:51:20.240
during this
link |
02:51:22.400
this torture that you're about to get yourself through
link |
02:51:24.560
with David
link |
02:51:25.200
because in those mental states
link |
02:51:26.800
you're really asking the question
link |
02:51:28.880
right
link |
02:51:29.200
you're asking the question
link |
02:51:30.640
where is my capacity
link |
02:51:32.560
and
link |
02:51:33.440
am I even close to my capacity
link |
02:51:35.440
and if I am
link |
02:51:36.240
what's
link |
02:51:36.720
what's of the most value
link |
02:51:37.920
I think we find the answers to those things
link |
02:51:40.240
in those nonverbal
link |
02:51:42.000
nonanalytic states
link |
02:51:43.440
it just
link |
02:51:44.640
comes to us
link |
02:51:45.760
I hope you're right
link |
02:51:46.800
and I hope it's a
link |
02:51:49.680
profoundly fulfilling experience
link |
02:51:51.520
as opposed to one that leads to my demise
link |
02:51:54.000
but
link |
02:51:54.400
you have a will right
link |
02:51:57.360
it goes
link |
02:51:57.760
it all goes to the
link |
02:51:58.640
to the hedgehog
link |
02:51:59.200
yeah exactly
link |
02:51:59.760
to the hedgehog
link |
02:52:01.520
now it all makes sense
link |
02:52:02.880
Andrew
link |
02:52:04.240
like we talked about offline
link |
02:52:05.760
on this podcast
link |
02:52:06.800
I do hope we
link |
02:52:07.760
write some stuff together
link |
02:52:09.520
do some research together
link |
02:52:10.640
you're
link |
02:52:11.280
you're
link |
02:52:11.920
you're
link |
02:52:12.560
one of the most inspiring scientists
link |
02:52:14.320
and
link |
02:52:15.760
speaking of communicating to the world
link |
02:52:18.800
so
link |
02:52:19.600
I can't wait to see what you do with the podcast
link |
02:52:22.320
I'm already a huge fan
link |
02:52:23.520
I've been telling everybody about it
link |
02:52:26.160
I can't wait to see you talk to Joe
link |
02:52:28.960
as well soon
link |
02:52:29.920
and I can't wait to see
link |
02:52:31.600
what kind of paper we write together
link |
02:52:33.280
thanks so much for talking to me
link |
02:52:34.560
no thank you
link |
02:52:35.120
that project is going to be a lot of fun
link |
02:52:36.960
can't wait
link |
02:52:37.520
and thanks again for having me on
link |
02:52:38.880
appreciate you brother
link |
02:52:40.960
thanks for listening to this conversation
link |
02:52:42.480
with Andrew Huberman
link |
02:52:43.680
and thank you to our sponsors
link |
02:52:45.680
masterclass online courses
link |
02:52:47.680
for
link |
02:52:47.920
sigmatic mushroom coffee
link |
02:52:49.680
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link |
02:52:51.760
and better help online therapy
link |
02:52:54.000
click the sponsor links
link |
02:52:55.360
to get a discount
link |
02:52:56.560
and remember
link |
02:52:57.600
now is the time to sign up to masterclass
link |
02:52:59.840
if that's something you've been on the fence about
link |
02:53:02.400
and now
link |
02:53:03.120
let me leave you with some words
link |
02:53:04.480
from Woodrow Wilson
link |
02:53:06.480
we should not only use the brains we have
link |
02:53:09.120
but all that we can borrow
link |
02:53:11.600
thank you for listening
link |
02:53:12.560
and hope to see you next time