back to indexYannis Pappas: History and Comedy | Lex Fridman Podcast #175
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The following is a conversation with Yannis Papas, a comedian who cohosted the podcast
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History Hyenas that I came across when I was researching the Battle of Crete from WWII.
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He and his cohost were hilarious in their rants about history and about life.
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The chemistry they have is probably the best of any cohosted comedy podcast or even podcast
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in general that I've ever heard.
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As of a few weeks ago, unfortunately, History Hyenas is no more, at least for now, because
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all good things must come to an end.
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But Yannis hosts a new podcast called Long Days with Yannis Papas, plus he has a comedy
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special on YouTube for free.
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Quick mention of our sponsors, WineAxis, Blinkist, Magic Spoon, and Indeed.
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Check them out in the description to support this podcast.
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As a side note, let me say that some of you have noticed that I have not spoken with too
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many computer scientists, physicists, biologists, or engineers recently.
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The reason has to do mostly with the risk aversion of many of these folks in the time
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of COVID, especially as they get closer to taking the vaccine.
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I'm tested several times a week and still some people are just more willing than others
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to have an in person conversation in these times.
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I only do these podcasts in person because I look for the possibility of a genuine human
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I'm willing to sacrifice a lot for that.
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Maybe it's silly, but I look for the magic that Charles Bukowski writes about in his
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The magic that is somehow in the air on those rare occasions when two people meet, talk,
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and you notice that while on the surface you may be worlds apart, you're still somehow
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woven from the same fabric.
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I've had that with many guests, Jim Keller comes to mind, but many others as well.
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I'm an AI person, machine learning, robotics, computer science is my passion.
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Trust me, I can't wait to be having more technical conversations again, but I will
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also continue to mix in comedians, musicians, historians, and of course, wise all seeing
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sages like Giannis Papas and Tim Dillon, just to keep it, as Tim likes to say, fun.
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This is the Lex Friedman podcast, and here is my conversation with Giannis Papas.
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You've cohosted, until recently, an amazing history comedy podcast called The History
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So you're a bit of a student of history?
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Yeah, an F student of history.
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Okay, I thought it was more like a D minus.
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Still got to repeat the grade if you get all D minuses.
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I actually had a.67 GPA average my freshman year and I had to do it again.
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This podcast is going to be the spectrum of human intelligence.
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It runs the gamut from there to here.
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So this is going to set the low bar.
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I'm barely sliding into human, I'm closer to chimp.
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And I bring that up that you're also friends with the great, the powerful Tim Dillon.
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So let's talk about power and the corrupting effects of power.
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Sometimes I look at Tim Dillon as he grows in power.
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Oh, I thought you meant in size.
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Well, size, I think they're correlated.
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I saw him, I've been in Austin a couple of days, I saw him once, we had eight meals in
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So I feel like I've been here longer than I have just because of the meals with Dillon.
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Kid likes biscuits and barbecue.
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So he's more like, see, I was imagining Putin or somebody like that.
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He's more like the North Korean dictator.
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They get along great, those two.
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I mean, Tim Dillon and King Jong Un would be like, they could make like a buddy cop
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They would get along like Lethal Weapon.
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That would be a good pitch movie.
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That would be a great podcast.
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So much to talk about.
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So many similar ideas about the world.
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So what do you think the world would look like if Tim Dillon was given absolute power?
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He seems like a person that's an interesting study of the corrupting effects of power.
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You don't want to give him power.
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You don't want, I don't even want him wearing a suit.
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Like I want a guy who's as thoughtful and educated as you wearing a suit.
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Like cause you know, suits corrupt you.
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You put that suit on, you start feeling that power.
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It's like, you know, yeah.
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I don't even want Tim Dillon in a suit.
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Power would, he would kill people.
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He'd get rid of anything that he deemed.
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I mean, if you made a lobster roll and it wasn't up to Tim Dillon's standard, he would
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have you executed.
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The entire restaurant staff is just gone.
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He would have people below his food standard execute.
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There'd be programs, not of people who are political dissidents, but of people who don't
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meet his food standard.
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His cuisine standard is high and he's usually right.
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Do you think power does corrupt people?
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Like one of the reasons we mentioned offline Joe Rogan, he's been an inspiration to me
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cause he gets, he gets, if you get power, just more famous and famous and yes, probably
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a bit of power in terms of influence and he's still pretty much the same guy.
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I'm not sure that's going to be true for everybody.
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Do you ever think, ask yourself that question?
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He's a rare breed.
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He's like a benign king.
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Most people I meet who are like really powerful are like douchebags and that's how they got
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I think that's, psychopaths have the advantage because they don't have feelings and Joe's
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He's just a powerhouse of will and he, I do think about that.
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I think I should be stopped right now.
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Just stop me right now because yeah, power for me, I would, when people get power, they
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It doesn't change anyone.
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It just reveals your darkest, you know, people aren't supposed to have anything they want.
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You got to be able to struggle for everything.
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So I would have a harem, I'd be like a Roman dictator.
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I'd be like a Roman emperor.
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I mean, people called them emperors.
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They were dictators.
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The most effective leaders are dictators.
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I hope we get back to that.
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Democracy hasn't worked.
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I'm ready for a secession of Caesars and I want to start with AOC.
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Dictators get the job done.
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At a certain point you got, that's why social workers can only get you so far.
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I was a social worker for five years and all you do is ask about medications and you don't
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I do ask myself of that, like, cause I'm more in the tech space of constructing systems
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that prevent me from being corrupt.
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Cause right now I'm all about love and all about those kinds of things.
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But I wonder, you said like, it just reveals the darkness.
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The problem is we might not be aware of our own darkness.
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I have the same feeling about money actually.
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I've been avoiding thinking about money, like basically constructing my moral system, my
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moral compass around money.
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It's like the moment I feel a little too happy about the idea of owning some cool shiny thing,
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I started to think, okay, I'm not going to own that shiny thing cause I'm afraid of the
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slippery slope of it.
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You ever think about that kind of stuff?
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The thing about the capitalist system is it puts sort of a profit motive above beauty.
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And you notice when you see certain cities, especially in the old days where like buildings
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used to be beautiful and now they're just like boxes, they throw a kid up and it's just
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for all profit margin.
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It's the illusion of permanence that, you know, it's like, oh, let me get as much money
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You're like, yeah.
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You know, my dad used to say, you know, everyone, it's a cliche, but you can't take it with
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So it's kind of, it's, it's comical to me that we're here trying to get this infinite
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Like it's like Sisyphus, we're all trying to climb this hill, but I mean, the rock's
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going to fall on us.
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So I think that's a healthy outlook.
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My dad always used to say before he passed, you know, he would say, you can't, you have
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to survive not only physically, but you have to survive emotionally.
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I think a lot of people forget about the emotional part of a survival.
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You have to survive emotionally and humor and, and, and understanding reality in its
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objective context helps with that.
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Accepting reality as this ephemeral thing that you're really just a part of, but not
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as significant as your ego wants you to believe is a, is a start.
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That's a good foundation for surviving emotionally.
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Surviving emotionally?
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Like what, what's an ideal life look like while you're thriving?
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You can't take things too seriously.
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You can't, because they're ephemeral.
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They're not permanent.
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Nothing's permanent.
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Your bank account's not permanent.
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Your abilities aren't permanent.
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Nothing's permanent.
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Your abilities aren't permanent.
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Your memory's not permanent.
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Your, your, your dick getting hard is not permanent.
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Can I curse on this or is this go out to, yeah, you can curse to your heart's content.
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I mean, gender's not even permanent anymore.
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I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna change maybe and live my second half as another gender
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just to have, I'm bored with this gender.
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So it's like nothing is permanent.
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And so accepting that emotionally is a good start to being more flexible.
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You gotta be flexible.
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Like my dad used to say, anything too stiff snaps.
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You gotta, you know, it's a cliche and people have said it a bunch of different ways, but
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Bruce Lee's right, man.
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Bukowski has this quote about love, that love is a fog that fades with the first light of
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So he's, he's a romantic, that guy.
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But that even love is a thing that just doesn't last very long.
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Um, you know, some people would disagree with that.
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Maybe it morphs, like, like, like water, it changes, right?
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It might not be, it might not be this, cause he's mostly just, uh, loved like prostitutes,
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The best kind of love.
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No, uh, responsibilities.
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It's a financial transaction.
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Uh, ephemeral as ever.
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You mentioned your dad.
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He passed away, uh, two, uh, a year and a half ago.
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What did you learn from him?
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My dad, I would say my dad was my, my hero.
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He was just, uh, my dad really embodied those values and I think, um, for better or worse,
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it's made me who I am.
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He's, he, uh, my dad was, was a painter, he was a lawyer, he was, uh, he was, uh, you
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know, a Lieutenant in the military.
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Born and bred Brooklyn.
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His dad, his dad, you know, uh, surprise owned a diner.
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So that's, that's sort of the Greek passport.
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That's the immigration passport for Greeks into America.
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And, um, yeah, my dad played football.
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He just, my dad did what he wanted.
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He lived as he wanted at all costs and I think I got that from him for better or worse.
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I think it's hurt me in my pursuits.
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Uh, if you consider money and fame, uh, to be paramount, you know, I, I've always done
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what I wanted and if I stopped wanting to do it, I just stopped doing it.
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I think I got that from my dad.
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So maybe for better or worse, that's what I learned from him.
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But that's a real currency, you know, feeling like you're in love with what you're doing
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when you're doing it, maybe perhaps that's worth more than money.
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But I'm happy that, uh, he, he got 91 years.
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I mean, he smoked for 60 years.
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Talk about like a guy who was an outlier and he smoked like 60 years, like packs.
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I mean, and he didn't die from that.
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He had a prostate cancer, which is the way men should go.
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Your dick should give out.
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It should start from the dick.
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I mean, we focus so much of our life on the dick that that's the way that's a successful
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life and that's why every man eventually gets prostate cancer because that is the universe's
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way of saying like the thing you focused on the most is you put the most energy into is
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the thing that's spent and it's going to, your, your rotting is going to start there.
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So that's a successful life and it just spread all over his body and he slowly died.
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I was with him when he died and that meant a lot to me because me and my brother weren't
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talking at the time cause we're Greeks, we're, we're talking again, but that's how it is.
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You got a few brothers, right?
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I got two brothers, but I wanted to make sure I was with him when he died and I got lucky
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and I was in the room with him when he died.
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You were in the room with your brother and you weren't.
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No, my brother wasn't there.
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We were kind of doing shifts.
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I was, I was there.
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I spent the night, the dad, my, the night my dad died, he died in the early in the morning
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and I heard the death rattle last breath and it was just, I think it was, uh, I, he knew
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I was there and, uh, I think that just probably meant something to him and I'm just glad I
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Does that make you sad that, uh, life is ephemeral, like you said, that, that you die?
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What do you think about your own death?
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You meditate on that?
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I think it, I think the actual, if there is a point to life, it's to, um, hopefully not
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fear death, to accept reality.
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I think that's important.
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I think so much goes awry in the human condition when we lose touch with reality.
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Every, uh, political system that's led to mass murder and everything, I think because
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it's because the, the tenants of those political philosophies ended up being utopian.
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They were detached from reality, detached from nature.
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And so I think it's, it's very important to accept and acknowledge your own mortality.
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I think it's the foundation for what makes a good person, a moral person, um, a contributing
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member of society because it's true.
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True things should be the foundation of all things.
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If, if, if what you believe is based on illusion, you're going to end up doing destruction.
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Whether that destruction is on a scale of one to 10, you are going to be destructive
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because it's not real.
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See, the thing is the truth is about, I don't think you can ever reach truth.
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Truth is about like constantly digging and to push back on your idea that you should
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I think the more honest response to death, so the least honest is to run away from it,
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create illusions that help you imagine that there's not a death.
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Uh, the next is to accept it, but the real honest one is to fear it because I, I, I mean,
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I'm, I'm with, uh, Ernest Becker is a philosopher, uh, wrote a book called Denial of Death.
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He says that the, like much of the human condition is based in the fear of mortality.
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That we like, that's, that's the creative force of the human energy.
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Like Freud said, do you want to sleep with your mother?
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He said, no, that's not what motivates you.
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Maybe his mom wasn't hot though.
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I mean, or he wasn't Greek because apparently at a poll, we found that we found that all
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things good and bad.
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I just don't know if his mom was a looker or not.
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I mean, I'd have to Google it.
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I'll look up on Google images.
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But I think the honest, as he says, the thing that we run away from is that there's a terror.
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He calls it like terror.
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Uh, there's something called terror management theory.
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That's some philosophers after him followed on that we're basically trying to run away
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from this fear and acceptance is actually creating an illusion for yourself.
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Like you can actually accept something as terrifying as this.
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So he's more with the stoics, the stoic constantly meditate on their death.
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I mean, they, what does that mean?
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I mean, it's kind of, it's, you know, acceptance of death isn't a thing you do like on a Monday
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and then you're done is a thing you constantly have to meditate on, like reminding yourself
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like this ride is over.
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It could be over today.
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And that's something you're, if you think about every single day, it gives you an appreciation
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of Woody Allen movies, at least it gives you appreciation of basically everything, including
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Woody Allen movies, which shows you how deep your appreciation for life could be.
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I've actually haven't been following much about what Woody Allen's, but apparently he's
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been a troublemaker through most of his life.
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I mean, you know, he's caused a little bit of strife.
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He's left a little, uh, yeah, he's left a little confusion in his wake for sure.
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But I mean, you know, that's another one separate the art from the artist.
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He's got, I mean, the guys will go down in history as the greatest he's made, I mean,
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maybe a year and they're all, you can always find something good about each movie, like
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the dialogue or whatever.
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Um, I love what you're saying.
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It's interesting, but the only thing I would say to push back a little bit since we're
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playing a little table tennis here is, um, I don't know if it's a choice to fear death.
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That's more of an, it seems more instinctual.
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It seems like something that nature wants you to do because I've been in positions where
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I thought I was going to die.
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Like I've been shot and I had those moments and then nature also, uh, you know, kicks
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in an instinct, which is acceptance where you kind of, I don't know, it's a chemical
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release or whatever.
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I don't know, you know, we're all, we're robots basically.
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So some sort of chemical is released that protects you, but there is an acceptance.
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I don't know how much, uh, of it was a conscious choice, probably very little.
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Um, and that's the point I'm making is it's, it's instinctual.
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We don't really have a choice in fearing death.
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Otherwise there would be no progression.
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We wouldn't all life seems to want to survive, uh, not by choice, but by instinct.
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So he, he argues that the fear is not the instinctual of, it's not the animalistic stuff.
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That's the thing that makes us special is the, what humans are able to do is to have
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a knowledge that we're going to die one day.
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Animals don't have that animals.
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Fear is instinctual.
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It's like, Holy shit, what's that sound over there?
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He says, we're actually able to contemplate the fact that this ride ends and that that
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kind of cognitive construct is difficult for us to deal with.
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Like what the hell does that mean?
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Like just to, just to think about, it's going to be over at a certain point, it's just over
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Like it's very difficult to kind of load that into whatever this like little brain we got.
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Like, what does that actually mean?
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Maybe that's what gives everything meaning.
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Because if everything lasted forever, if, uh, if this went on ad infinitum, there would
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be no meaning to it.
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I'd be like, Hey, if I don't see you tomorrow, I'll see in a million years, there would be
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There'll be no urgency.
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There would be no feelings.
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There'd be no, uh, nothing of magnitude or superficiality.
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It would all just be this kind of, it would be torture.
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It would actually, that would actually be torture to be here forever.
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I mean, I'm already sick of this place and I'm just in my forties.
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I'm sick of everything.
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You know, a lot of people, when they talk about mortality, they consider, they consider
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mortality appealing because you get a chance to do basically all these things you might
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not get a chance to do otherwise, like all the kinds of travel broadly, explore, read
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every book, explore every idea, do every hobby, all those kinds of things.
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The idea I was talking to mentioned, uh, the reality of being immortal would be more likely,
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I like this idea, more likely would be you just sitting there doing nothing because,
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and putting off all that travel and exploration to later because you'll always have time.
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And so what you're going to have, what actual immortality would look like for a bunch of
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humans is people sitting there doing nothing.
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It would be like a Greek caffineer just sitting around drinking coffee.
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I mean, it's a lazy man's paradise.
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But it's so interesting because that, that's, that rings true to me for what humans are
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like is we'll basically just put off all those exciting adventures and just be lazy, become
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lazier and lazier and lazier because you'll always have a chance to do all the exciting
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things and we'll just get, we'll basically become Tim Dillon.
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We just sit there and have a podcast and that's it.
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I mean, that sounds actually like heaven, dude.
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That's speaking to my heart really.
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I mean, I'm at heart, I'm a very lazy person.
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I always try to find ways to lie down.
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Like if I'm sitting, I'll figure out a way to kind of contort myself to later.
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That's an interesting thing to like in, yeah.
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If you can always push something off, yeah, that, I like that.
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I think that's heaven.
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See, we just changed your mind.
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You kind of like the immortality.
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I kind of like it.
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So there'll be no thirsts.
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You can always put it off.
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You don't want to bang this girl.
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You're like, ah, put it off.
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But now I'm thinking about Muslim heaven and they may be offering the best deal.
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I mean, if it was an expo and they had a booth, I may go with them because they offer, they
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offer 62 or 72, but then I'd get sick of them.
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I'd want to, I don't know.
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I always wondered like, are you given the 62 virgins or you choose, can you create them
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like an avatar, like a video game, or are you just given?
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I don't know what the number, why it's important to have that high number.
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First of all, I think it's a mistranslation about the virgins, but outside of that, outside
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of that, I feel like the conversation is really important.
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I don't think they ever specify like what kind of books these girls read.
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Like what are they, what are they into?
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Like the quality of the conversation, I think if you're talking about eternity, the quality
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of the intellect and the conversation and the personalities is way more important.
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And the Greeks have an ancient, ancient expression, pat metronaros stone, which my mother always
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used to say, which is everything in moderation, nothing in excess.
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So trying to always get the status quo and uh, yeah, that many women, eventually it's
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like the magic Johnson effect, Isaiah Thomas effect.
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It's just too much and you're going to end up, you're going to end up banging a dude
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is what I'm saying.
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You're going to get sick of it cause it's too much and there's going to be a eunuch
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that finds its way into your harem.
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That's been proven throughout history, every empire, when you have all that power.
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And again, this goes back to power corrupting.
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If you have, if there's no struggle, there's no meaning, there's the value is from the
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journey, the, the working hard to struggle.
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And if it's just given to you because you're a Sultan or you're Alexander the Great or
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whatever, you're going to get bored and you're going to bang a dude.
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That's it's, I think that's a scientific axiom actually.
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Eventually you'll get bored and bang a dude.
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Yeah, but I think it won't stop there.
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I think you'll go to animals, you go to robot.
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I mean, eventually it all ends up in robots and then the robots rebel and then the humans
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will be destroyed.
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If, if we're speaking truth, you said the value of life, one of the highest ideals is
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I think if we're being honest.
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Can I ask you a quick question?
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If you, if you live in a small, I come from small islands, right?
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And so there's a stereotype that that's where they bang animals.
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But if you come from a very small community, you know, an island or something, and you
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have the choice of banging a family member or an animal, which one is worse on the moral
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Because you're technically not related to the animal.
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This is interesting.
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I mean, these are human constructs, these ideas, but yet for me personally, taboo would
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be more taboo to, uh, to, to have sex with a family member.
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It's good to know where you stand on that.
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I think if viewers, you know, if they didn't have, they didn't know they had that question.
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I just, they just learned a little bit about you.
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I look forward to the internet clipping that out.
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I mean, there, there is, listen, uh, in some, outside of, outside of that, I do think about
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I think it's kind of ridiculous, uh, about morality connected to animals in terms of
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all the, the, the factory farming and so on.
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It seems like that's one of the things we'll look, cause I love meat, but I kind of feel
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bad about it and, and bad in a way where I think if we look like a hundred years from
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now, we'll look back at this time as like one of the great like tortures and injustices
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that we humans have committed.
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And I mean, all that has to do with the sex with the animal has to do with consent and
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about the experience of suffering of animals.
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The reason I think about that personally a lot, cause I think about robotics, I think
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about creating artificial consciousnesses, uh, or artificial like beings that have some
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elements of the human nature.
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And then you start to think like, well, what does it mean to suffer?
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What does it mean for entity to exist such that it deserves rights?
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This is something that the founding fathers were thinking about, like, you know, all men
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are created equal.
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What does it, which, who is included in the men who, who's not in that, in that sentence
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and our animals included in that are robots.
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I honestly think that there will be a civil rights movement for robots in the future.
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I don't, I don't know.
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Is that the Turing test, the way you try to, is that what they call it where you're trying
link |
to see if AI can think like a human or whatever, or feel like a human?
link |
Well, it's a, the Turing test closely defined as more about talk like a human.
link |
So you can, you can imagine systems that are able to, you can have a conversation like
link |
this and I would be a robot for example, but that doesn't mean I would do in a, in society.
link |
That doesn't mean I deserve rights or that doesn't mean I would be conscious.
link |
It doesn't mean that I would be able to suffer and to experience pleasure and dream and all
link |
those kinds of human things.
link |
The question isn't whether you're able to talk, which is passed in the Turing test.
link |
The question is whether you're able to feel, to be, I mean, I go back to suffering.
link |
The thing that the, that our documents protect us against is suffering.
link |
Like we don't want humans to suffer.
link |
And if a robot can suffer, that discussion starts being about like, well, shouldn't we
link |
Currently we don't protect animals.
link |
We protect that dog.
link |
There's actual legislation that protects dogs for torture places.
link |
And you know what?
link |
Dogs is something I don't think people really understand enough about.
link |
It's one of my obsessions.
link |
So they, they, my dad always used to say those, he goes, those things are, those things are
link |
And I mean, they dream, they have anxiety.
link |
And what people often overlook about dogs is without dogs, we wouldn't be here.
link |
We would not have ever evolved from hunter gatherer to agrarian to, you know, civilization.
link |
We wouldn't have cities.
link |
We wouldn't have anything.
link |
I mean, they are our partner in survival and they are a magical animal.
link |
There's no, there's no animal that was, it was like destiny almost.
link |
I mean, a malleable animal, there's no animal that's that malleable that in a few generations
link |
you can tailor to a specific job that you need.
link |
And without that animal, without dogs doing that animal, protecting our crops from, from,
link |
you know scavengers and stuff like that, you know, the list goes on.
link |
We wouldn't be here.
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So we, that's an often overlooked fact that human evolution was not done in a vacuum just
link |
Without dogs, we would have never evolved.
link |
I mean, we weren't the apex predator for most of our existence.
link |
We weren't even the apex predator.
link |
I mean, we're getting eaten by hyenas, which is my favorite animal and you know, that's
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kind of an injustice to, I mean, I'm kind of mad at dogs.
link |
We deserve to get eaten by hyenas, but without dogs, we wouldn't be here and dogs, dogs deserve
link |
They fucking lugged us around for thousands of years and now these fucking German psychopaths
link |
are eating them or whatever.
link |
We should not eat horse meat just on like, be a good dude, man.
link |
These things lugged us around for generations, they're beautiful, you know, ride them or
link |
I don't know, but it rubs me the wrong way that we eat horses.
link |
Yeah, the horses one is interesting and one of my favorite books is Animal Farm by Orwell
link |
and the horses don't get a good ending in that, I kind of, my spirit animal I suppose
link |
is the horse from Animal Farm, Boxer, where he says, I will work harder.
link |
I work really hard at stupid things.
link |
That's basically what I, I just hit my head against the wall for no reason whatsoever.
link |
But that probably fulfills, you have a big brain, you were probably born with a big brain
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that kind of fulfills.
link |
It's killing neurons.
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It's exercise for you.
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Don't you think some animals deserve to be eaten though?
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I mean, you gotta respect the hyena.
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Okay, so let's look, first of all, let me just comment on the dog thing.
link |
There is like conferences on dog cognition from a perspective of people that study psychology,
link |
cognitive science, neuroscience, dogs are fascinating.
link |
The way they move their eyes, they're able to, they're the only other animal besides
link |
humans, they're able to communicate with their eyes.
link |
They can look at a thing and look back at you and look back at the thing to communicate
link |
that we're all like through our eyes, communicate that we're collaborating.
link |
So every other animal uses their eyes to actually look at things.
link |
The dogs use it to like communicate with you, with us humans.
link |
There are a lot of other elements of dogs that are amazing.
link |
Yeah, I mean, if it wasn't for them, they're the ones, they were our first alarm system
link |
They would defend us.
link |
I mean, the Basenji is one of the most ancient dogs.
link |
I mean, they're tiny, but they're fearless and they would chase off lions.
link |
Like there'd be packs of them and they chase off lions and protect the tribes.
link |
I even get tingles like thinking about dogs because I have a dog, I love my dog.
link |
And there's something about when you're walking with your dog off leash in the woods, there's
link |
something about it that's like, that tugs at that millions of years of evolution, like
link |
that gut, you know, it's like, I had a Finnish friend of mine, he's a comic, Tommy Valamies
link |
once told me, he was like, he was like, the gut, he's like, I believe in it.
link |
Like that gut, you know, when you have that feeling, he's like, always trust that because
link |
that is million, those are all your ancestors.
link |
That's the survival instinct of all your ancestors at the beginning of time, you know, telling
link |
you like, Hey, something's off here, something's, you know, so don't get in the car with Ted
link |
Bundy is what I'm saying, ladies, how fucking stupid, who, how can you fall for that?
link |
You know, he's got a fucking sling on, don't get in.
link |
My question to you, are psychopaths essentially robots?
link |
So first of all, let's not, you're using the word robot in a derogatory way that I, I'm
link |
So I feel offended.
link |
You should be because you know what, people are always scared of robots, but I actually,
link |
I have, I've made the sort of, uh, I, I've made it to say, Hey, I've, I thought about
link |
it and like robot, robots have been nothing but helpful.
link |
It's the people we should be scared of.
link |
Again, we're kind of missing the most destructive thing is us because it's, but robots are helpful.
link |
I mean, this is a fucking robot.
link |
You know, I went on hotel tonight, I'm already booked up, you know, I got my, I can change
link |
my flight if, if this barbecue with Rogan goes 16 hours, which whatever Rogan wants
link |
to do, I'll do it.
link |
If he wants to kick me in the chest, I'll let him kick me in the chest, whatever.
link |
Robots are helpful.
link |
Uh, tanks and autonomous weapons systems don't kill people.
link |
People kill people.
link |
The NRA is about to collect that for you.
link |
Uh, a lot of love for dogs.
link |
I appreciate it very much.
link |
And at the same time, you have the other thing that people seem to have love for, which is
link |
And on the flip side of everything you've said, I'm trying to understand what have cats
link |
ever done for human civilization?
link |
They keep rodents away.
link |
The domesticated cat is very important.
link |
Keeps the rodents away.
link |
That's what they were domesticated for.
link |
I mean, they're psychopathic killers who ended up killing, uh, innocent, um, neighborhood
link |
chipmunks and, and birds, uh, they really affect the, uh, the balance of the local ecosystem.
link |
But if you have love for cats too, not as much as dogs, I mean, dogs are, like you said,
link |
they look at humans.
link |
I actually read an article that some people were theorizing they're smarter than chimps
link |
because of the way they can work with humans.
link |
And there was one border collie that spoke like 300 words, like a quarter, like a lang,
link |
almost part of the language.
link |
And their nose is like a mat.
link |
I mean, that's like magic, dude.
link |
If you can smell in my ass to what I had for breakfast from miles away, that's intelligence.
link |
That's intelligence.
link |
I mean, in some ways that their nose, if you were to put it on a scale, maybe their nose
link |
is more intelligent than our brain for what it does.
link |
You know, it's like, I mean, dude, they can smell you from miles away.
link |
You ever see a dog just like sniffing, catching?
link |
I mean, it's smelling like, I don't remember the, the, the date on it, but it's like, they
link |
have like millions of receptors or something where we only, you know, thank God we don't
link |
That would be, that would make sex weird, be a little too intense.
link |
I think you mentioned when you were talking about Woody Allen separating the, the art
link |
So that brings to mind Vladimir Putin.
link |
How about that transition?
link |
But if you look at just powerful leaders throughout history, Stalin, Hitler, but even modern ones
link |
like Putin, and we're talking about power.
link |
How do you explain them?
link |
You said that power reveals, not corrupts, but do you think there's some element to which
link |
power corrupted Hitler, power corrupted Stalin after he gained power?
link |
And the same with Putin.
link |
When Putin gained power in 2000, do you think the amount of power that he was in possession
link |
with for many years, do you think that corrupted him?
link |
I mean, we're joking about dictators get the job done.
link |
There is some sense in certain countries where a dictator is the only thing that can stabilize
link |
The counter argument to that for democracies is like, yeah, but that's a short term solution
link |
for a long term problem.
link |
So you want to embrace chaos with democracy.
link |
That might be violent.
link |
There might be a lot of just constant changing of leadership.
link |
There might be a lot of corruption in the short term, but if you stay strong with the
link |
ideals of democracy, then you'll be ultimately create something that as beautiful and stable
link |
as the United States.
link |
The sad thing is, is I don't know if history tells that story.
link |
It's like I said, you look at Greece, you look at Rome, democracy kind of failed.
link |
The majority of Rome, the most successful empire that we've had, was a dictatorship
link |
for most of its run.
link |
But I do believe in a republic, which is sort of a limited democracy.
link |
I do believe in what we have here.
link |
I believe in common law.
link |
I believe in individual rights.
link |
But yeah, I think you said it.
link |
Nobody could have said it better.
link |
It's a short term solution.
link |
You look at Saddam Hussein, he kind of, when we took him out, then there was a lot of infighting
link |
that happened that he was kind of keeping at bay because he was a strong man, dictator.
link |
Well, he's an interesting one, sorry to interrupt.
link |
From my understanding, I'm sure people will correct me, but when Saddam Hussein first
link |
came to power, he was, he's quite progressive.
link |
So like the, as far as I understand, the signs of an evil dictator weren't exactly there.
link |
So again, there's, I don't know if power revealed or power corrupted.
link |
Or that could have been the initial subterfuge to kind of get everybody, you know, Hitler
link |
also is a champion of the people.
link |
It's built some new roads.
link |
It's with psychopaths too.
link |
And that's why it's interesting to me.
link |
I'm not sure if power corrupts psychopaths.
link |
And now that we know that we can do these CAT scans and brain scans, we know that they're
link |
Power definitely corrupts people who have the capacity to feel and for empathy.
link |
Power I'm not sure.
link |
I don't think power corrupts people who were born psychopathic with that condition or sociopaths
link |
who had, who, you know, who were closer to psychopath and then had some traumatic life.
link |
You know, I just think, you know, the best way to get away with whatever nefarious thing
link |
you want to do to feel, I guess the only thing psychopaths can feel is that excitement, is
link |
to pretend to be the opposite of what you are.
link |
That's what, that's what killers do.
link |
That's what the worst people, look at Bill Cosby.
link |
I mean, he was, what better way to hide, you know, it's like what wokeness is now.
link |
It's like, I'm such a great person and then you're like, are you?
link |
It's a great, the best way to hide is to pretend to be the opposite of what you are.
link |
Just like Ted Bundy.
link |
I'm just an innocent, helpful guy.
link |
And then boom, next thing you know, you're getting your tit bit off.
link |
That's really well said.
link |
It's actually kind of funny because I talk about love a lot.
link |
And I think the people that kind of look at me with squinty eyes, they wonder like how
link |
many bodies are in that closet, you know what I mean?
link |
Like there's something about the duality of like, we're so skeptical as a culture.
link |
Like if somebody is just like, seems to be kind of, sort of, I don't know, positive and
link |
all that kind of, you know, how do I put it?
link |
Just simple, simple minded in the positivity they express.
link |
They think like, okay, there's some demons in there.
link |
Especially if you're a New Yorker, we don't trust any, the nicer you are, the more skeptical
link |
I've struggled with that down here.
link |
And they're like, nah, dude, just, I wanted to show you the best tacos, man.
link |
And I'm like, did you really, what do you want?
link |
Because in New York, it's like, if anyone's nice to you, they want something.
link |
And that's, the pro side to that is it makes you very street smart.
link |
The downside to that is it makes you way too cynical.
link |
I've definitely experienced that here in Texas, but people are super, super nice.
link |
And they're like, do all this cool shit for you and you wonder, what's the angle?
link |
What are we doing here?
link |
You mentioned hyenas as your favorite animal.
link |
I forgot to ask you, what the hell were you thinking?
link |
Why is a hyena is your favorite animal?
link |
It's a fascinating animal.
link |
Let's look at the whole animal kingdom.
link |
Like why is it, where do you put, so you like dogs, love my favorite, your favorite is dogs,
link |
but they're kind of outside the animal kingdom because you're thinking about wolves.
link |
So the animal kingdom is in nature.
link |
Dogs escaped nature.
link |
Uh, together with humans, like in a collaborative way, exactly.
link |
So within nature, within the animal kingdom, what, who's, uh, why not lions?
link |
Because lions are predictable.
link |
Lions are just, you know, they're regal and kind of, they bore me.
link |
It's like the hot chick.
link |
It's like, we get it.
link |
You were born the best.
link |
You know, I like a scrappy, by any means necessary, intelligent and cunning.
link |
But aren't they dishonest?
link |
And that's why I like them.
link |
They're dishonest.
link |
They employ chicanery.
link |
They, uh, they're, and that's just a sign of how intelligent they are and how self reliant
link |
they are and how brutal they are.
link |
Um, they're brutally honest in how much they lie, you know, because it's just, they're
link |
trying to get the job done.
link |
You know, lions are just like, they're, they're too gifted.
link |
Everyone hates the fucking, you know, if I went to school with you, I'd be like, of course,
link |
Lex knows the fucking answer.
link |
Lex was born smarter than me.
link |
You know, and you'd probably hate me because I was the kid always seeking attention and
link |
making people, it's like, that's not interesting.
link |
The guy that claws his way to the top and those are hyenas.
link |
They're also fascinating just by, uh, merely who they are.
link |
I mean, they're not related to any other animal.
link |
They're more closely related to cats than they are dogs, even though they look like
link |
They're, but they're very, like very tangentially related even to cats.
link |
So they're their own kind of thing, which is kind of mysterious.
link |
I don't think they fully figured out and uh, they, the pseudo penis thing is the, is the,
link |
Can you explain the pseudo penis?
link |
So the, it's a matriarchal society by the way.
link |
So that's the unique in and of itself that this, we're talking about an apex predator
link |
that is a matriarchal, much like, uh, you know, the praying mantis.
link |
It's very rare though.
link |
And they are fucking brutal and vicious and the women are bigger and they let their cubs
link |
fight, a lot of fratricide and they do that because they're like, Hey, you're weaker.
link |
I let your brother kill you.
link |
And uh, the women have penises, the women have pseudo penises that they give birth out
link |
of and the birth is violent, but they, they roll around with just huge pieces.
link |
They're glue guns are just fucking swinging, you know, and the women are just run the show
link |
and uh, it's just cool that they have these pseudo penises.
link |
It's almost romantic the way you describe it.
link |
They have the strongest bite force.
link |
They they pulverize bone.
link |
Like when they eat an animal, the animal's gone.
link |
They eat everything.
link |
They can pulverize their bite is so powerful.
link |
They pulverize bone and eat it.
link |
So if they consume an animal, it, the animal was there and then the animal's gone.
link |
There's no nothing for the vultures there to, uh, to, to, to grab.
link |
I'm going to have to revisit the hyenas because my experience with the heinous was from, uh,
link |
first of all, history is your show, uh, has rebranded them for me, but, uh, the lion king,
link |
which is, uh, a cartoon, I guess, that, uh, I get emotional at every time I, I hope that
link |
probably a father issues, every guy probably just, you just have feelings.
link |
You're a good guy.
link |
I mean, everyone has feelings.
link |
That one gets everybody.
link |
I get, I get every father son movie, like blow with Johnny Depp, uh, and, uh, really
link |
That's a good movie.
link |
And whenever there's like, um, like the disappointment in the father that his son has become like
link |
this incredibly successful drug lord that then ends up with nothing in, in, in prison,
link |
uh, just the sadness of them communicating through letters, man, it gets me every time,
link |
but, but, you know, uh, there, the hyenas are not presented that well in that, um,
link |
No, they're usually portrayed as like, uh, it's, it's really, it's, it's, it's, it's
link |
really sad that they're portrayed that way as lions.
link |
Like lions aren't dicks.
link |
They, the, the, the, the alpha lions will kill the cubs of another rival.
link |
They do all types of dick shit.
link |
And, um, yeah, it's, uh, the hyenas are more interesting.
link |
Like they'll just roll in like a hyena will like, like you said, the lie, you know, cause
link |
when you watch the Serengeti, you know, animals will hang out with each other.
link |
They're like by water.
link |
So one hyena will just kind of roll in and pretend like it's not hungry and then bang.
link |
They'll use any means necessary to take an animal down.
link |
Like lions will just use brute strength.
link |
Hyenas use cunning and you can even go on the internet and find, uh, memes of this where
link |
hyenas will grab the big animal by the balls and just like, we'll sneak up behind it and
link |
And you'll watch an animal 10 size, 10 times the size of the hyena just slowly go down.
link |
It's brutal, but it's fucking hilarious.
link |
So I, I think that's, uh, I don't know if you follow the channel, um, nature's metal
link |
that, that one weighs heavy on me.
link |
Um, with the hyenas on the balls, I it's tough to, to intellectualize it.
link |
It's tough to think that the entirety of life on earth has this history of, uh, predators
link |
being violent, just like just the murder that we come from.
link |
I, it, uh, just like when we're talking about meditating on death, I actually, I keep following
link |
and unfollowing that Instagram channel because like sometimes it's too much.
link |
Like I can't, I can't continue with the day after like seeing the brutality, the honest
link |
brutality of that.
link |
I don't know how to make sense of it.
link |
It's important to acknowledge, I think, cause that it's real and we do come from that.
link |
We are, we evolve from that.
link |
We're just hidden from it.
link |
You know, when you go to the supermarket and get your slab of meat, you know, you're so
link |
disconnected from where that meat came from.
link |
It came from that and often that's uglier to watch than because there's some honesty,
link |
you know, the, the, the, the nature channels only show, uh, that's why we have so much
link |
sympathy with the prey.
link |
And this is where I think the same thing with mafia movies, they don't show what the mafia
link |
They glorify the good parts.
link |
That's why I like state of grace cause it's really just shaking down old people and fucking
link |
It's not driving nice cars and being like, you know, so, and, and animal channels do
link |
They only show when the cheetah gets it because that's, that's the exciting part.
link |
But what most people don't know is that those predators strike out almost always a majority
link |
of the time, the prey wins.
link |
And so if you saw that and put it in context, you might not hate it as much when the predator
link |
actually gets the little fawn or whatever, because it's so many fawns got away.
link |
It's so hard to capture your prey.
link |
And you know, we, we don't have the, the, the, they no, no documentary is going to sit
link |
around and show you the 99 times the cheetah didn't catch.
link |
Thank you for this perspective.
link |
It's murder is difficult.
link |
So like this is the, they never talk about for people who murder how difficult that is
link |
like to trap somebody, to convince them to come back to your place, give it some respect,
link |
put some respect on Ted Bundy's name.
link |
It's not easy to convince somebody to get in your Volkswagen Beagle and, and the cleanup.
link |
And then you have to kind of plan ahead because you want to keep doing the murder, mass murder.
link |
You gotta learn how to saw them up, put them in duffel bags, bury, you gotta learn to dig,
link |
you gotta learn how to hide.
link |
You gotta learn to lie.
link |
I mean, it's a lot that goes into it that we need to put a little respect on.
link |
And you have to figure out which tools work the best for the sawing and all those kinds
link |
Um, um, so thank you for the perspective.
link |
That's what I was hoping we would bring to this table.
link |
So you, um, uh, you got a little bit Greek in you.
link |
Uh, one of the episodes on, on a history hyenas, you talked about the battle of Crete where
link |
the Greeks, your people in, uh, uh, in 19, I guess 41 and the early stages of the world
link |
war II, there's one of the most epic battles of the war.
link |
Uh, in fact, in 1941 in a speech made at the Reichstag, Hitler paid tribute to the bravery
link |
of the Greek saying, it must be said, uh, for the sake of historical truth that amongst
link |
all our opponents, only the Greeks fought with the endless courage and defiance of death.
link |
What do you make of this battle?
link |
What do you make of the spirit of the Greek people?
link |
This is one of the closest things to me because my mother was actually on the island of Crete
link |
during this, the first aerial invasion in history.
link |
A lot of people don't know that.
link |
So this is a very significant battle.
link |
Um, first time there was an invasion from the sky, um, and, uh, my mother was a little
link |
girl and she lived through four years of a Nazi occupation there.
link |
So my mother was a human rights lawyer and everything, but she just always hated Germans.
link |
It's just what it is.
link |
She hated Germans and she never got over it.
link |
So the most progressive, open minded woman just could not get over this.
link |
Um, it's a monumental battle that a lot of historians in retrospect have now looked back
link |
on and said, because the Nazis, first off, you got to take it back to when Hitler instructed
link |
Cause let's be honest, Mussolini was Hitler's bitch.
link |
You know what I mean?
link |
It was like, if it, well, you know, if it was fantasy island, Hitler was the fucking
link |
and the, and Mussolini was boss, the plane.
link |
Mussolini ever say no to Hitler or even maybe it's always like, yes, yes, yes, we will do
link |
And, uh, it's like, yeah, it takes, you have to take Greece.
link |
And so, um, yeah, so Italy being much bigger than Greece, Greece is a tiny country, nine,
link |
So Italy invaded Greece, um, you know, um, and Aukey day's a big, it's a big holiday
link |
And this speaks to the spirit Greeks in fight until we have a common enemy and then we unite,
link |
you see it throughout history, Sparta and Athens, you see it in Greek families where
link |
the brothers will fight.
link |
But then as soon as we have a common enemy, we unite and maybe it's an overactive brain.
link |
We think too much, our traditions, philosophy, and we overthink things and we fight with
link |
each other and take things personally, we're ultra passionate.
link |
But when Italy said, Hey, we're going to move troops through, you know, uh, a Greek said
link |
Aukey, which means no, and that was, um, and then Italy attacked and, uh, we beat the shit
link |
A much bigger country, much, uh, more well equipped country.
link |
Greece beat the shit of them, kicked them back into Albania, actually not only repelled
link |
them, actually like conquered some ground in Albania, pushed them back.
link |
And then Hitler was like, fuck, you know, I was planning my March to Russia, uh, but
link |
I have to go down because he basically said to Mussolini, like, you know, you're basically
link |
I'm like, I got to do this myself because you're such a fucking bitch.
link |
So then the Nazis invaded Greece.
link |
Obviously they took the mainland with fight and shot out.
link |
The Greeks never give credit to the British and New Zealand and Australian troops that
link |
You know, they were a large part of this, the majority of it, but the Greeks fight dude,
link |
I mean, they fought, you know, the Ottomans were there 400 years.
link |
Now there's no evidence.
link |
There's virtually no evidence of them ever being there.
link |
That's the Greek spirit.
link |
Kick them out and we kicked out hummus too.
link |
So it's like their culture's gone.
link |
Cause Greeks are, uh, it's philoptimo.
link |
It's called philoptimo.
link |
And it's a real thing.
link |
Philoptimo is a, it's very little translate.
link |
You can't translate it, but it's kind of like honor, loyalty, friendship, uh, altruism.
link |
It's a, it's, you can't define it, but Greeks know it and we're taught it from our, from
link |
our, uh, families.
link |
It's a Greek cultural thing and we're an old culture and philoptimo is what it's called
link |
And it's, um, it's love, it's passion and it comes out and it comes out.
link |
And so, um, so Hitler had to postpone his invasion of, um, of, uh, Russia went down
link |
the island of Crete took 10 days to conquer.
link |
It's an island to put that in perspective, the country of France fell in three or four
link |
I can't even remember cause they fucking just rolled over.
link |
What does a couple of hours matter when you're that much of a fucking pussy?
link |
What is a couple out in 12 hour fucking three or four days, the island of Crete took the
link |
Germans 10 days to conquer.
link |
And because of that, and because of the Greek resistance, Hitler had to postpone his invasion
link |
of Russia to winter.
link |
And of course that was, you know, that was his downfall just as it was Napoleon's and
link |
a never dude, never try to invade Russia.
link |
They got millions of people to throw at death.
link |
Every time you read about Russians in history books, like, and a million died.
link |
I mean, it's like, you just guys throw millions of people at the problem and don't fuck with
link |
that Russian winter and don't fuck with Russian people, dude, they're tough.
link |
People in New York know that you don't go to fucking sheep set bay and start talking
link |
You'll end up in a fucking car trunk and they'll brutally murder you.
link |
I do not fuck with Russians.
link |
And then there's a, I mean, there's a lot of people, a lot of historians argue that
link |
that battle was because of the Russian winter because of delaying the Russian invasion,
link |
but also psychologically delaying the invasion.
link |
It was the first time, I think it was the first time the Germans failed, not, or didn't
link |
succeed like they wanted to early in the war, which is a little like psychologically the
link |
impact of that I think is immeasurable.
link |
And also a lot of people argue from a military strategy perspective that the, just like you
link |
said, it was an aerial attack and that Hitler didn't think that the, that kind of attack
link |
would then be useful for the rest of the war.
link |
So that's, that's a really part where, whereas it might've been very useful.
link |
So it's a, it's really interesting how these little battles can steer the directions of
link |
Of course, me growing up in the Soviet Union, we didn't hear much about this battle.
link |
Just like you said, millions of Soviets died.
link |
All those people in history that you read about dying, those are all civilians, but
link |
I mean, not all, but a very large number of them are civilians and their stories, obviously
link |
that's the rooted, the literature, the poetry, the music, just the way people talk, the way
link |
they drink vodka, the way they love, the way they hate, the way they fear.
link |
That's all like rooted in World War II and World War I.
link |
And so, but we never kind of think about Europe and we certainly, growing up, didn't think
link |
about their role in the United States.
link |
All this, there's plenty of stories of heroism in the Soviet Union, enough to, enough for
link |
So, but it was fascinating to read from a Greek perspective, cause I, you know, I don't
link |
have many Greek friends, I hope you didn't change that.
link |
This is the beginning of a love affair of your people.
link |
But likewise, the Americans don't hear about the Soviet contribution to the end of World
link |
War II because obviously we became, you know, enemies after that because of the two systems.
link |
But yeah, without the Russians, World War II wouldn't have been won either.
link |
The stories are written by the victors.
link |
That's really interesting.
link |
I, just looking at the, at history, you wonder what's missing.
link |
I'll tell you what's missing that I know for a fact, cause my dad told, my dad told me
link |
combat's hell and he would tell me the reality of what it's really like.
link |
Guys pissing themselves, calling for their mother, the fog of war, obviously, fratricide
link |
happens all the time.
link |
I mean, there's skill involved, but I mean, there's no, like it's a lot of it is just
link |
My dad said, he, my dad won three, he got, you know, medals, braille, purple hearts,
link |
And he said, the reason was, is cause you can't, he always said, this is another thing.
link |
He told me, you can't pin a medal on a dead guy.
link |
So it's like, those are the guys who deserve it, but you can't pin a medal.
link |
You can't do the pomp and, and I'll tell you one thing is that it is written by the victors
link |
and all these leaders, they say we're in the front.
link |
We're not in the front.
link |
We're not in the front.
link |
Whenever the history books say he led his troops into battle.
link |
It's like, did he really, did he, so then how did he live?
link |
Cause they put like kids in the front, you know, it's like nobody limps back from the
link |
front with like a injury, you know, that's, that's army PR, you know, whenever you read,
link |
you know, 27 soldiers died, 14 were injured.
link |
The word injured is PR.
link |
That's like injured.
link |
Was he, did he sprain his ankle?
link |
Did he need, did he get carried off the court or, you know, he was maimed.
link |
I mean, he was like, his leg was blown off, you know, it's like, so, uh, I think that,
link |
you know, Alexander the Great was just kind of in the back on his horse and just kind
link |
of, he had his eunuch blow him a few times and he was like, is it bad up there?
link |
And then like after that he was like, okay, my scribe, give me my scribe.
link |
When you write this down, can you put me in the front?
link |
And I was just making me a big hero and I was in there and then he, you know, he just
link |
blew his, you know, he had sex with his eunuch and rode off into the sunset because there's
link |
just no way you survive in the front, especially warfare back then.
link |
I mean, it's like brutal.
link |
Then again, you have like, uh, Genghis Khan.
link |
The sense I got that he was a little bit up on the front, at least the first.
link |
Or is that also, is he a little bit Alexander the Great?
link |
Give me my scribe.
link |
I mean, you ever play the game of telephone?
link |
You know, it's like, you know, there's no video cameras back then.
link |
So shit just get, turns into myth, you know, and, uh, there's no way he was in the front.
link |
There's no way he wouldn't have lived.
link |
You know, he was probably good on horseback cause those, those dudes were good on horseback.
link |
But it was like game of Thrones back then.
link |
You had all these different people and they kind of, yeah, the, the, the Mongols were
link |
They are actually said like, um, they started like they were more adaptable to the horse
link |
because they were so good on horseback that kids started to be born like kind of bow legged
link |
like to fit the horse.
link |
And they would stretch their heads and shit like that.
link |
They wrap them and stretch their heads.
link |
So they find like Mongol skulls and they look like cone heads and they were brutal and vicious
link |
and they would maraud and rape and all the fun stuff that, you know, when, you know,
link |
when you visit other places back then, there's no tchotchke stops and souvenir shops.
link |
What you do is you take women and those are the tokens, you know, you burn a few huts
link |
Tourism was different back then.
link |
That's another difficult thing.
link |
So we're talking about nature and predators to think about the long stretch of history
link |
where we're just murder and we made so much progress, I guess, in the past couple of centuries.
link |
The United States is a shining example of that.
link |
But do you think also that it's that effect that we were, a lot of good things had to
link |
happen too or else we wouldn't be here.
link |
So do we just focus, isn't it like a car crash effect that like we're, you know, the rubber
link |
neck that everyone pulls over to see a car crash, are we just only focusing on the negative
link |
things of history because they're just more exciting to us?
link |
Like it's just not, it's boring to be like, yeah, and then there was a bunch of villagers
link |
and they ate every day and danced and loved.
link |
I wonder, I wonder how different those people were, you know, like they might've had the
link |
same exact loves and fears and like they perhaps had the same kind of brilliant ideas in their
link |
head, if not more brilliant.
link |
And we kind of think about like this moment in history is like the most special moment.
link |
Like we're doing the coolest shit that we're doing the most amazing building and most amazing
link |
But maybe they were building amazing things in their different way with like less technological,
link |
but in the space of ideas, in the space of just all the different, the camaraderie and
link |
the space of like concepts, mathematics, all those kinds of things.
link |
I mean, Greece, you look at the architecture, it still stands up.
link |
I mean, all the government, but it's still arguably, I mean, as far as objective beauty,
link |
it's hard to argue that Greco Roman, it's just something about it with the, with the
link |
It's just, it's powerful.
link |
It's I don't know, even Ayn Rand would probably appreciate it.
link |
She doesn't, no, no, no.
link |
So in your history, hyenas that unfortunately has come to an end, we're talking about empires
link |
coming to an end, all empires fall.
link |
That one, it may rise again.
link |
Empires might rise again.
link |
I, I'm obviously a fan, so I hope it does rise again, but you've seemed to develop your
link |
Can you, you know, it's what it is.
link |
What is, what is that?
link |
What the hell, is this some kind of medical condition or can you, can you explain like
link |
the linguistic essentials that catch us up to the linguistic essentials that people need
link |
to know to understand the way you speak?
link |
You know, Leopold and Loeb, you know the story of those two, they murdered that kid and they
link |
had this weird relationship.
link |
Anyway, it's an interesting thing to Google, Leopold and Loeb, these two guys who ended
link |
up murdering a kid because they developed their own language with each other and this
link |
own reality and this weird thing and they wanted to know what it's like to murder a
link |
kid and they murder a kid.
link |
It's a famous story in American lore and history or whatever, famous case.
link |
But this phenomenon, yeah, me and Chris got together.
link |
It wasn't as dark as Leopold and Loeb, we didn't murder a kid, but we murdered a podcast.
link |
Or at least stabbed it a few times.
link |
Yeah, it's, it was something in the organic chemistry of me and Chris that I think we'll
link |
both end up appreciating even probably more than we do now that it's mysterious.
link |
I got to be honest with you, it's, it was a thing that it wasn't conscious, wasn't intentional.
link |
It was something that happened in the music of our energies that just went.
link |
Like when you hear someone sing or when a jazz band hits a rhythm or even when I'm on
link |
stage and I just catch a rhythm, it's like, dude, I didn't make a choice there.
link |
I don't know what that is.
link |
I don't know how to explain it, but it comes from somewhere else and I don't know what
link |
It's beyond my comprehension.
link |
But with Chris, there was this magical chemistry that, you know, I have chemistry with a lot
link |
of people and it can be funny and I feel zero chemistry here.
link |
It's a little bit more intelligent than what me and Chris did.
link |
But you know, me and Chris, I think we connected on the funny bone.
link |
Like I, he, I found him so funny and we found the same things funny.
link |
And from that, these organic expressions came from some part of our brains that was created
link |
from this chemistry.
link |
And yeah, we just developed this language and this cult following and people were really
link |
upset when we ended.
link |
But it was the right thing to end because like all things that end, it was kind of done
link |
a few episodes even before we finished.
link |
And I think we pulled the plug before it started rolling downhill, like all, you know, like
link |
all great flings, you know, there's your long relation, long marriages are boring and comfortable.
link |
The one you really like fucking always ends abruptly and sadly and, but you always look
link |
back and you jerk off to it.
link |
And so you guys made love and we made, yeah.
link |
So it's like, it was like a hot fling with me and him and it was intense and we burned
link |
the candle at both ends.
link |
And it was, I think that podcast was meant to be three years and maybe people will go
link |
back and appreciate it and listen to it over and over again.
link |
And I think the new things we do, people will love, I'm doing long days now, that podcast
link |
and people seem to enjoy it.
link |
I've been really enjoying the long days on YouTube.
link |
I just found myself just like staring at you ranting for, same with Tim Dillon, I really
link |
enjoyed the, whatever those rants are, the genius of just one thing after the other.
link |
But definitely the chemistry, almost as a study, I remember the reason I first started
link |
listening to it, I was trying to get a perspective on certain historical moments.
link |
Like it was interesting.
link |
I tuned in to learn history.
link |
I came for the history and like stayed for the chaos and the crack open and clean out.
link |
And yeah, this, it was almost, I listened to Rogan like this sometimes.
link |
I'll relisten to an episode to try to understand why was this so fun to listen to?
link |
It's almost like trying to analyze humor or something like that.
link |
But it's nice from a conversational perspective, like why was this so easy to listen to?
link |
And with History of Hyenas, like why is the chemistry so good?
link |
It's so, it's weird.
link |
Cause there's not many podcasts like, I don't know any with the chemistry like that.
link |
And it's kind of sad that the fling with a prostitute in Vegas has to end, you know?
link |
But that's what makes it special.
link |
It's the Bukowski thing with the fog.
link |
The British Office, one of my favorite shows was that it ended very quick.
link |
It's only a couple of seasons or something like that.
link |
And that was tragic, but that took guts to just end it.
link |
Given all the money you could have made, given all the, you just end it.
link |
And that's what makes it truly special.
link |
And I'll tell you, man, I'll just emphasize it.
link |
Cause I marvel at it too.
link |
Cause as a guy who tries to always figure out what the causes of things, I gotta be
link |
Looking back on that, even with retrospective wisdom, you know, that 2020 hindsight, we've
link |
been done a couple of months now, it's something that I can't explain.
link |
It's something that I don't know how you quantify it.
link |
I don't know how you describe it.
link |
It's really kind of rhythmic.
link |
Maybe like a Netflix show about history.
link |
That's in the future with the two of you.
link |
You guys will meet like the way you meet with a fling like a decade from now at a diner
link |
and you're both way fatter and uglier and then you just reminisce over some cigarettes
link |
Yeah, it could be.
link |
It's definitely a classic podcast that people can go back and appreciate.
link |
It's fast paced and it was unique.
link |
What was it like to research for, I mean, it was really scholarly, the depth of research
link |
that you performed.
link |
It sometimes felt like you almost read an entire Wikipedia article beforehand.
link |
We were, we were one fan, we attracted such funny people to that podcast and the fans
link |
were so funny and one fan called us nicknamed as Wikipedia sluts.
link |
And so it just stuck.
link |
We just would read Wikipedia.
link |
I would do a lot more research than Chris.
link |
And so I would actually, you know, once in a while he'd get into it too.
link |
But for very interesting episodes, I got some subject matter would just pull me in.
link |
Like Bernie Madoff, just to think of one that was recent, it was one of our last ones.
link |
And I think one of our better episodes and I'm glad that it kind of ended after that
link |
because it was rare to, I think we started to slip a little bit.
link |
I got fascinated and I got, I did a lot of research for Bernie Madoff, but usually, yeah,
link |
we'd pull up Wikipedia and we'd have fun.
link |
We were sort of the antithesis of Dan Carlin.
link |
I mean, you went to Dan Carlin for accuracy and thoughtfulness and you went to us for,
link |
it was a hang with history.
link |
That's why history hyenas was such an appropriate name because it was, it was a little bit of
link |
Some, some episodes were more hyena, more wild and a little history and some were a
link |
little more dense, like the battle of Crete and less hyena.
link |
So you were, you were always going to get both, you're either going to get a majority
link |
of one or the other.
link |
And Dan Carlin is the lion, I guess.
link |
And you guys, predictably good.
link |
I mean, what, what are your thoughts about, I mean, he's a storyteller too.
link |
He gets a lot of criticism for the, from the historians, quote unquote.
link |
That's why he likes to knock.
link |
He keeps saying he's not a historian, but what's your, what are your thoughts about
link |
the hardcore history with Dan Carlin?
link |
Like, was he an inspiration to the podcast you were doing or, or like an account, like
link |
a, almost like a reverse psychology inspiration where you wanted to do some kind of opposing
link |
type of podcast in history or was history always just like a, a launching pad to just
link |
talk shit about human nature?
link |
More of the latter.
link |
I wasn't even aware of his podcast when we started.
link |
And so we, it was just very organic, again, like the chemistry, me and Chris became very
link |
We started the podcast.
link |
First we did a web series called Bay Ridge Boys, which has its sort of little cult following.
link |
We did like five episodes and ended it.
link |
And then we did the podcast and hi, hyenas were my favorite animal and I talk about them
link |
passionately and I told Chris about them and then he started appreciating them and we both
link |
I majored in history.
link |
It's one of the things I love.
link |
I go to museums all the time.
link |
I go to his, I do history tours, so does he.
link |
And so it was just sort of a natural, let's do a history podcast and it gave us something
link |
to talk about each episode to sort of lean our, you know, hang our hats on and, and riff
link |
So it had nothing to do with dance.
link |
What I think about dance, I think it's great.
link |
I think even if he's inaccurate in the opinions of the historical community, it starts conversations,
link |
It's like this thing where people go, oh, it's dangerous rhetoric.
link |
It's like, no, rhetoric only becomes dangerous when education fails.
link |
What's going on in America is education has failed.
link |
So if you call someone online dangerous, it's not him that's dangerous.
link |
It's the fucking stupid people that's dangerous.
link |
And it's the fault of this country.
link |
We didn't listen to Aristotle.
link |
The future of a civilization depends on public education and we failed.
link |
Education has failed.
link |
Kids are, kids are not interested in shit.
link |
And so in some sense, those dance podcasts and podcasts can be incredibly educational.
link |
Because he's a, the storytelling that pulls you in ultimately leads to you internalizing
link |
these stories and like remembering them and thinking through them and all those kinds
link |
of things that is much more powerful than you book on history.
link |
I think often it inspires you to go learn more.
link |
So it's like, I know we did that.
link |
I mean, you know, I, people would go, Hey, I went and learned about this because they
link |
knew with us, there was no pretense, which was great that we had no standard.
link |
So it's like, nobody came to us for historical accuracy, but I was kind of turned on by the
link |
fact that it inspired people to go learn about this stuff or to at least know like Battle
link |
of Crete, like you said, a very underappreciated battle.
link |
Even Winston Churchill said from here on, we will no longer say that Greeks fight like
link |
heroes, but heroes fight like Greeks.
link |
I mean, it was a monumental battle and you know, not talked about enough.
link |
And I, our podcast would inspire people to go actually learn more, to go listen to Dan
link |
Carlin or to go pick up a book or to do research on their own.
link |
And so I think podcasts, Dan Carlin's obviously much more accurate than us, but it's good
link |
that people are going to podcasts like yours and to learn shit.
link |
Joe was, is really like the progenitor of that.
link |
I mean, you know, having intellectuals on and getting the public interested with this
link |
new medium in, in people who are intelligent.
link |
Cause you know, what the mainstream press pushes out is horseshit, gorgeous horseshit.
link |
It's got a beautiful veneer, but no substance.
link |
And so this, this is a nice pushback.
link |
The authenticity of Joe's show.
link |
I mean, I'm through, I started listening from the very beginning, you know, doing my in
link |
grad school, you know, like a technical person and he just pulled me in.
link |
And made me curious to learn about all kinds of things and use my own critical reasoning
link |
skills on some of the bullshit guests he's had and some of the most inspiring guests
link |
And so I teach you to think, can you, I don't know much about Bernie Madoff as a small tangent.
link |
Can you, can you tell me who the hell is Bernie Madoff?
link |
Oh, Bernie Madoff is the GOAT.
link |
The greatest thief of all time, dude.
link |
Hedge fund guy, ran a hedge fund and pulled, stole the most money in the history of America.
link |
I mean a con artist and he does, people obviously he's become, he's a household name because
link |
of the magnitude of his crime, but you got to appreciate, again, you got to appreciate
link |
what went into this and how long he was able to pull it off by tricking the smartest and
link |
richest people in the world and a brilliant scam.
link |
The con man, con man is short for confidence man.
link |
And it came from, yeah, a con man, basically they exude confidence and they trick people
link |
by playing on their ego and blind spots.
link |
And the word comes from a guy, I can't remember where, but what he used to do, I can't remember
link |
the guy's name, whatever, you can Google it, con man.
link |
But it's very interesting.
link |
The first con man that is on record, what he would do, he would go to very rich people
link |
and he'd be very well dressed, right?
link |
And he'd go, I bet you, you don't have the confidence to give me your watch.
link |
And he would play on the egos of these very powerful and rich people and they would give
link |
them the watch for some reason, some sort of reverse psychology bullshit.
link |
And he'd take the watch and he would just steal it because basically saying like, you
link |
don't have the confidence to give me the watch because you don't, I don't know, you don't
link |
think I'm going to give it back.
link |
And he would just take it.
link |
So Bernie Madoff was a very sophisticated con man.
link |
And again, we were talking about people pretending to be the opposite of what they are.
link |
And he hid his thievery in how available he was to his clients, how he would show up at
link |
every bar mitzvah, every birthday, he was always available for their phone calls.
link |
And he played on their egos.
link |
He made it so people wanted to invest in him, like they were competing.
link |
He made it very exclusive.
link |
He wouldn't just take anyone.
link |
And there was a method behind that madness because he wanted the whales that wouldn't
link |
notice that he had this pyramid scheme going.
link |
And so what he would do is he would just rob from the richer and he just kept, it was like
link |
he'd pay back the richer with the guy who was a little, and it was a pyramid scheme.
link |
And he was able to do it for so long and steal so much money.
link |
And he would win people over with the scheme because with that scheme, he was the only
link |
guy who could provide, who could guarantee like a 1% return even during times of recession.
link |
And because he was such a good con man, he hijacked people's reasoning with his charm.
link |
And that's what con artists do.
link |
That's what psychopaths do.
link |
They're so fucking charming.
link |
They get you in that Volkswagen Beetle.
link |
Because if they use their reasoning for one second, they'd go, hey, nobody can provide
link |
1% returns during recessions.
link |
How the fuck is this guy doing it?
link |
I'll tell you how he's doing it.
link |
He's stealing from another guy to pay you.
link |
You fucking idiot.
link |
So charisma is essential to that.
link |
Maybe you can help explain something to me, something I have been affected by.
link |
I'm getting way too loud for your listeners, there's going to be comments like, tell this
link |
I'm sorry, I'm Greek, I'm positive.
link |
No, that's beautiful.
link |
Something that I have been thinking about and have encountered indirectly is Jeffrey
link |
And I have a sense because of MIT, because of all the other people that have been touched,
link |
the wrong term, by Jeffrey Epstein in the sense that literally and figuratively.
link |
And it always felt to me like there's not a deep conspiracy, I don't know, but it felt
link |
to me like it's not some deeply rooted conspiracy where like Eric Weinstein thinks that there's
link |
some probability that Jeffrey Epstein is a front for like an intelligence agency, whether
link |
it's Israeli or the CIA, I don't know, but is a front for something much, much bigger.
link |
And then I always thought that he's just, maybe you can correct me, but more of the
link |
Bernie Madoff variety, where he's just a charismatic guy who maybe is psychopathic in some sense,
link |
so you know, also a pedophile, but just charismatic and is able to convince people of that 1%
link |
of any idea that in the case of scientists is able to convince these people that their
link |
So one thing scientists don't really, you know, despite what people say, I don't think
link |
they care about money as much as people think.
link |
I mean, people are ridiculous when they think that, yeah, that's why people get into science
link |
The personalities that get into science are obsessed with minutia and they do the scientific
link |
You know how boring that is?
link |
Like you have to have a love for it in order to do it.
link |
But the thing, what drives you is for your ideas to be then heard.
link |
Like when a rich guy comes over, probably super charismatic, is going to tell you that
link |
your ideas, especially for some of these outsiders at MIT, at Harvard, at Caltech, all these
link |
like sort of big science, like physics, biology, artificial intelligence, computing fields,
link |
to hear somebody say that your ideas are brilliant and ideas matter, it's pretty powerful, especially
link |
when you've been an outsider.
link |
Like he's talked to a bunch of people who had outsider ideas.
link |
You know, the big negative for me of modern academia is that most people, actually like
link |
most communities, most people think the same and there's just these brilliant outsiders
link |
and the outsiders are just derided.
link |
And so when you have Jeffrey Epstein, like a hyena, sorry, sorry, sorry, going on the
link |
outside and picking off these brilliant minds that are the outsiders, he can use charisma
link |
to convince them to collaborate with him, to take his funding and then thereby he builds
link |
a reputation, like slowly accumulates these people that actually results in a network
link |
of like some of those brilliant people in the world, you know, and then pulls in people
link |
like Bill Gates and I don't know, political figures.
link |
I tend to believe that one person can do that.
link |
I mean, look at Hitler, charisma is blinding.
link |
I think that's what Kahneman, speaking of Bernie Madoff, that's one of their major tools
link |
is flattery, glib, superficial charm.
link |
It creates those blind spots.
link |
People want to hear how great they are.
link |
They want to be flattered.
link |
It takes your defenses down, plays to our ego, how much we're all just pieces of garbage
link |
and want to hear how great we are.
link |
We want that love from our mother and our father.
link |
That's Freudian and they know because they're not burdened with that need, they're not burdened
link |
with that empathy or emotions and they just see things very calculatively.
link |
They play, they know that we're prey in their game and they use that against us and that
link |
is why someone who is not that intelligent, like Hitler, can probably convince a lot more
link |
intelligent people, you know, and that's why we can't give Tim Dillon power because then,
link |
you know, he already stands on a stage.
link |
I mean, if we let that guy, I mean, he will just take over a country and everyone who
link |
can't cook well will be eliminated.
link |
I wonder why he keeps complimenting me when we're in private.
link |
He looks at me just, I like your suit.
link |
I like the cut of your jib.
link |
You gotta be careful of that kid.
link |
But it's crazy to think about...
link |
Clip that, please.
link |
I mean, Quentin Tarantino said it to Pat, I mean, in his script, personality goes a long
link |
I mean, personality can usurp common sense and reason of the smartest people.
link |
These absolute smartest people can be hypnotized.
link |
It's sort of like a sexy woman.
link |
It's like, you can just, you can be tricked because we have such a blind spot for, you
link |
know, for flattery.
link |
I think there's a BBC documentary on, I think it's called something like Charisma, Hitler's
link |
Charisma or something like that.
link |
It was quite, I mean, that one focused more about the power of the speeches.
link |
But I wonder if most of the success or the rise of Hitler and the Third Reich had to
link |
do with the charisma of Hitler when he's alone in a room with somebody, with the generals,
link |
Like, I wonder if that's the essential element of just being able to just look into a person's
link |
eyes, like flatter them or whatever is needed to earn their trust and then convince them
link |
of anything you want.
link |
I mean, you're right.
link |
Because that's the one piece of history we don't have.
link |
We do know that the kid crushed.
link |
I mean, he was a headliner.
link |
He got up there and his hair would flop.
link |
I mean, he crushed it.
link |
Yeah, there's certain elements about nationalism and pride that are really powerful.
link |
Like a lot of us humans, I think, long for that, for the feeling of belonging.
link |
And when some charismatic leader makes us feel like we belong to a group, the amount
link |
of evil we can do to other humans because of that, it's endless.
link |
Nobody wants to look and nobody wants to do the work to be better or look at where they
link |
Why does it always have to be the Jews that escape?
link |
You know, it's like, get over it, guys.
link |
I mean, it's like they killed Jesus.
link |
It's a long time ago.
link |
I understand because we do run the central banks.
link |
Don't forget about the weather.
link |
That's a funny one that people created.
link |
Like, who gives a shit?
link |
What is the weather?
link |
Like, what's the importance of the weather?
link |
The Jews made it rain outside.
link |
You know, they made it snow.
link |
You get a day off.
link |
It's like, yeah, there's certain conspiracies that make me like flat earth.
link |
Like, what's the motive?
link |
What's the motivation for lying that the earth is round?
link |
Like, what's the conspiracy?
link |
What does anyone get out of that?
link |
What is exactly the profit?
link |
What's the strategy?
link |
Do you have any, from a historical perspective or just a human perspective, conspiracy theories
link |
Or you're not necessarily conspiratorial?
link |
I'm not necessarily conspiratorial.
link |
Nobody cares that much.
link |
But then, you know, what happens is you find out this one or this two, and you start questioning
link |
And you start questioning everything, man.
link |
It's like, you know, the Vietnam War started, that was a lie.
link |
That was a false flag.
link |
And then next thing you know, everything's a false flag.
link |
There are some strange things on 9 11.
link |
You know, there's some strange things from a scientific perspective.
link |
I'm no scientist, but it's like, you know, yeah, three steel framed skyscrapers falling
link |
on the same day in the same way.
link |
A lot of people say, oh, they were hit by planes.
link |
It's like, yeah, but that's not why they fell.
link |
They fell because of fires and usually, not usually, all the time, except for three times.
link |
And there was buildings that have burned for longer than that.
link |
And there might be good explanations, but the lack of transparency, it's like, I feel
link |
And building seven's weird.
link |
I mean, the way it kind of died, just a neat, just a neat, the physical, I mean, you're
link |
Is that, well, I don't, I, is there resistance from the steel and free fall, not all scientists
link |
I'm just a computer guy.
link |
Cause I had some questions I wanted to ask you about my biology, but yeah, so exactly.
link |
I don't understand biology.
link |
I don't understand the melting point of steel.
link |
I don't, but I'm just the common sense human that looks at government and institutions
link |
when they try to communicate.
link |
And there's a certain human element where you can sense that there's dishonesty going
link |
And dishonesty might not be deeply rooted in a conspiracy theory and something malevolent.
link |
It might just be rooted more likely to me in a basic fear of losing your job.
link |
So when you have a bunch of people that are afraid of losing their job, you know, and
link |
they just don't want to like the origins of the virus, whether it came from a lab or not,
link |
you know, that's a pretty, I know a lot of biologists behind a closed doors that, that
link |
say it's very likely it was leaked from the lab.
link |
But like, they don't want to talk about it because there's not good evidence either way.
link |
It's mostly you're just using common sense.
link |
So they're waiting for good evidence to come out in either direction.
link |
But just like nobody in positions of institutional, like centralized power wants to just honestly
link |
say, we don't know, or on the point of masks or all those kinds of things to say, you know,
link |
here's the best evidence we have.
link |
We're not sure we're trying to figure that out.
link |
We're desperately trying to figure that out or just like honesty, especially in the modern
link |
day, that's the hope I have for the 21st centuries.
link |
People seem to detect bullshit much, much better because of the internet.
link |
But they also believe crazy shit too.
link |
There's no Yang without a Yang, I guess.
link |
But I think the conspiracy theories arise only when the people in positions of power
link |
and government institutions are full of shit.
link |
Like the air will be taken out of the conspiracy theories if the people in elected power would
link |
be much more honest.
link |
Like just like real.
link |
Yeah, people like Andrew Yang, whatever you think about him, just more honest.
link |
He just like says whatever the hell comes to mind.
link |
By the way, he's running for New York mayor.
link |
Do you have opinions?
link |
Yeah, it's no good.
link |
I like Andrew Yang and it's no good.
link |
I'd be honest with you.
link |
I'm a lifelong New Yorker.
link |
I mean, I'm a New Yorker.
link |
Well, you're a New Yorker, so nothing's good.
link |
Well, something is good.
link |
Let's be honest about New York.
link |
It's a very socially liberal place.
link |
It is the head of the snake.
link |
New York is the country.
link |
If New York, when New York's not doing good, country's not doing good.
link |
It's the most important city, DC, New York.
link |
It's, maybe I'm biased.
link |
We just, New Yorkers, we walk around everywhere and we go, this is just like New York, but
link |
It's, but New York needs, and I'm a guy who leans left.
link |
You know, I just, I lean left and that's just what it is.
link |
Is that where you're going?
link |
Are we going back to Stalin again?
link |
We need, it's a money town.
link |
Let's be, come on, man.
link |
I mean, New York is a money town.
link |
And Wall Street, and then when AOC and her cronies at the local level rejected that Amazon
link |
thing, you're going like, what do you think makes cities?
link |
What's going to create jobs in the 21st century?
link |
More pizza places?
link |
I mean, we're living in the tech revolution and you know, whatever your opinions are
link |
about Jeff Bezos, that's the world, tech.
link |
And they want you to come here.
link |
Of course you give them tax breaks.
link |
That's why companies go anywhere.
link |
She's so fucking utopian and that progressive wing is so utopian and that always ends in
link |
disaster because it's not rooted in reality.
link |
It doesn't accept the reality that people are self interested.
link |
Now they're going to do this 14%, 15% tax hike on people making a million dollars more.
link |
In New York City, a million dollars is not that much.
link |
So people are going to flee New York.
link |
The tax base is going to flee.
link |
New York's going to fall to shit like it did before.
link |
So you're saying it basically needs a more capitalist front, like capitalistic type of
link |
Bloomberg, Giuliani when he was still sane and his hair wasn't melting off his face.
link |
You need a tough, I mean, I don't know what's happened to that guy.
link |
It's fun to watch.
link |
It's fun to watch him be just like, uh, Trump's lackey.
link |
Like, yeah, boy, whatever you want, boss.
link |
I'll just say whatever you want, boss.
link |
But New York is a money town that needs a money guy and sort of more of a Republican.
link |
I have to say on the local level, as more of a guy who leans left, I'll just be honest.
link |
It's a tough city that needs a tough mayor, not some guy who's going like, I understand
link |
we all need free money.
link |
You know, Andrew Yang I think is right in the big picture because all the real jobs
link |
are somewhere else.
link |
You look at those Asian cities, you go like, oh, that's what our cities used to look like
link |
at the industrial revolution.
link |
You know, there was like, there was jobs and people were making things here.
link |
Now you look at those cities in Asia and you're going like, wow.
link |
And then you go to Detroit and you're like, yeah, we're done.
link |
You go to Cleveland, you go, we were done.
link |
So I don't actually, it's, it's funny.
link |
The reason I really like Andrew Yang is I've learned a lot every time he talks, like it's
link |
He's just giving a lot of data, like information, which I just start a podcast.
link |
Don't run for mayor.
link |
Yeah, that's true.
link |
He already has a podcast.
link |
I think Yang speaks.
link |
That's the way we communicate.
link |
I don't even talk to people unless it's on a podcast.
link |
Listen, man, I'm a, I'm not going to criticize that because there is something like I talked
link |
to my dad on a podcast for four hours and I'm not sure I would ever talk to him in the
link |
way we talked without the podcast.
link |
But like, yeah, it's a episode 100.
link |
And you know, I, uh, the, the way I recorded that podcast is I tried to put my ego aside.
link |
It's actually really tough to talk to your dad, especially because you're giving him
link |
Uh, especially, so at that time there's already a bit of a platform for this podcast.
link |
And so there's this, as a son, you think like, oh, here it goes with this bullshit again.
link |
Like that's the natural son thought you have.
link |
But at the same time, I wanted to, the way I thought about it is in 20 years when I look
link |
back, like I want to do a conversation where I'm happy with it, you know?
link |
So I want to make him shine.
link |
But I also called him out on like, why were you so distant, like, like all of that kind
link |
It was very difficult to do, but it was really important to do.
link |
And I don't think I'd be able to do it without a, without a microphone.
link |
Listen, how often do we sit there and just focus our attention and just look at the other
link |
I, I don't know, man.
link |
This is not even recording right now.
link |
I just invited you over.
link |
Just so we could actually, you're right.
link |
The podcast does make, like I listen, I've been listening to every word you've been saying.
link |
And if we weren't doing a podcast, I might be looking at my phone or being self conscious
link |
about something else or nervous or anxious, especially with people close to you.
link |
I mean, that was, I recommend that actually for people to talk to their family on a podcast
link |
or like a fake or not.
link |
That's really powerful.
link |
It made me realize that there's a clear distinction between the conversations we usually have
link |
with humans and those we have when a podcast is being recorded.
link |
What the fuck were we talking on before that?
link |
I knew you were going to lose your train of thought on that one because that's a big one.
link |
There's a motion behind that one.
link |
A podcast with dad is going to take, that's going to take you to a place that took you
link |
It took you outside of interviewer.
link |
It went to a place.
link |
New York and Yang.
link |
In New York and Yang.
link |
That's what really surprised me about, I like the psychoanalysis that you just threw in
link |
That took you to a place.
link |
So Andrew Yang mentioned.
link |
Do you respect me now, dad?
link |
MIT, is it enough?
link |
Fucking million people listening to this.
link |
Is it enough, dad?
link |
I'm creating robots.
link |
Is it enough for you?
link |
It's never enough.
link |
That's what drives you probably.
link |
That's probably what drives me.
link |
That's what gives meaning to life is it's never enough.
link |
And I hope to pass that on to my kids one day.
link |
That nothing's ever enough.
link |
Whether they're robot or human, right?
link |
You might call one of your robot.
link |
Do you love your robot?
link |
Are you starting to love your...
link |
Is it going to be like that Pygmalion thing?
link |
You create them and then they kill you.
link |
But even while they're killing you, you got a tear.
link |
Why are you doing this Frankenstein?
link |
Those would be the last words out of my mouth.
link |
I just want to mention something on the, that it costs $400,000.
link |
Over $400,000 per year to support one person in prison in New York.
link |
Like when I heard that number, it was really confusing to me.
link |
Like that it costs that much, 400K per person.
link |
And it was really refreshing to hear a politician describe a particular problem with data.
link |
That this is this prison industrial complex, whatever the hell it is.
link |
And whether the solution, it's unclear what the solution is.
link |
I think he has solutions, but just the honesty of presenting that information was refreshing.
link |
And I'm not sure a capitalistic person would solve that.
link |
Those kinds of problems he might make worse.
link |
And I'm not, I'm a huge fan of capitalism.
link |
I think the free market is the way we make progress in this world, but it seems to go
link |
wrong in certain directions.
link |
Like the military industrial complex, the prison industrial complex, anything that ends
link |
with industrial complex.
link |
And so I'm not sure.
link |
I'm not sure if all of the problems, you're basically saying, let's put New York's problems
link |
We need to have New York shine first to do what it does best.
link |
And then we will fix them, well, and then we can focus on the problems.
link |
But if you just say like, here's a problem, here's a problem, here's a problem, let's
link |
make sure we have the safety net that protects us against all of these kinds of problems.
link |
That's not going to, that's going to kill the city, the spirit of the city that is in
link |
your biased opinion, the Rome of the world.
link |
That said, a lot of people are fleeing New York.
link |
Yeah, that's why I say it.
link |
That's the reality of the situation is, you know, I'm all for the public good, but yeah,
link |
there needs to be a back to that Greek expression, pan metroniris, and I also think the free
link |
market is responsible for progress.
link |
I think it's the most natural thing, the thing that's most aligned with human nature, which
link |
And which I'm not to the extent that Ayn Rand would, but I do believe people are mostly
link |
self interested, especially with one gun to the head, morals are out the window, you know,
link |
it's about survival.
link |
So, you know, create a system that respects that and acknowledges that, but socialism
link |
works very well, at least right now, as a check as to temper the excesses of capitalism
link |
and in certain scenarios is the more appropriate system, you know, in a vacuum.
link |
So one being prisons or, you know, you know, governance, you know, parks.
link |
Maybe even, well, and this is a difficult one, but in healthcare, healthcare, it's unclear
link |
There's a lot of debates there.
link |
Doctors want boats.
link |
So I guess you're voting for AOC you're saying.
link |
No, I'm not voting for AOC, but I do, it's just a tough one.
link |
That's a tough one.
link |
But ultimately, the Hippocratic Oath, it's like, how do you turn people away, man?
link |
How do you do that to people?
link |
It's like, it's a tough thing to reconcile helping people, curing people with the marketplace.
link |
It's just, I can understand why that one's so tough.
link |
And then you got hypochondriacs, of course, who drain the system, you know, like people
link |
who are having anxiety, like me who had COVID and called 14, you know, I called 14 ambulances.
link |
So and then of course we're fat and the free market made us fat because it played the marketing
link |
made us want all this junk food and that's a burden on the healthcare system.
link |
So we got to do something about that.
link |
We got to get creative.
link |
We need new thinkers.
link |
I'll be one of them.
link |
When you go to a fast food restaurant, you stand on a scale.
link |
If you're over a certain thing, you can't be served.
link |
It's good for the healthcare system.
link |
You know, you just handed a salad and say, sorry, this burger is illegal for right now.
link |
If you achieve these certain BMI goals, then you can, you can have this burger, but right
link |
And that's where the state's important.
link |
To regulate our freedoms.
link |
I'm with you Bloomberg.
link |
Well, I'm with you to go along.
link |
I think the salads are too expensive.
link |
They should be subsidized.
link |
If you, if you go to like a fast food joint, the burger is always going to be cheaper than
link |
And this does not make sense.
link |
We should run on this platform.
link |
I'll be your vice president or ban burgers for, for people of a certain weight and make
link |
Three day work weeks.
link |
Why has that not happened yet?
link |
Where are you going with this one?
link |
Dude, good for the economy.
link |
Stimulates the economy, right?
link |
More shifts, creates more jobs, more people spending because they have more leisure time,
link |
boosts the leisure economy, you know?
link |
Why are we still doing the five day work week that, that was, that was tempered from the
link |
seven day work week.
link |
That was, so the seven, it used to be seven day work week, it used to be like, and people
link |
who are just these libertarians, it's like, come on dude, what, what is this fresh, are
link |
we freshmen in college?
link |
You're going to, we're going to talk about Ayn Rand next.
link |
Like let's talk about reality.
link |
People are fucking greedy.
link |
They, you know, there's no end to up, which is one of my favorite expressions.
link |
There's no end to up.
link |
Can we dissect that?
link |
From a Randian perspective.
link |
There's no end to up, which is, uh, you just keep going.
link |
It's never enough.
link |
Oh, it's never enough.
link |
No end to up more.
link |
And you know, you have to reconcile your fact that you're going to die.
link |
So like this no end up thing is that balance is, is just as valuable as progress.
link |
So we have to reconcile those two things and put them on a seesaw and figure out how to
link |
get two people who have the equal weight to keep it like that.
link |
And that's the goal.
link |
And it constantly vacillates, uh, according to the time you sometimes you need a little
link |
Sometimes you need a little more capitalism.
link |
You gotta, you gotta, you gotta fly the plane, man.
link |
You gotta fly the plane, dude.
link |
What's your, um, looking back at history, is there a moment, time period in history,
link |
a person in history that's most fascinating to you?
link |
You mentioned Bernie Madoff, maybe second to Bernie Madoff.
link |
Is there in a battle of Crete, is there something that you've always been curious about?
link |
Even if it's something you haven't actually researched that well yet, just something that
link |
pulled at your curiosity that, uh, instructed the way you think about the world.
link |
An individual or an event or an event, individual, uh, you know, yeah.
link |
Moment in history or a person in history.
link |
Um, there's a few, but, uh, you know, queen Elizabeth, uh, the Elizabethan era, you know,
link |
the sun never sets in the British empire, very successful empire, uh, what an absolute
link |
success story that is, is for a leader and a woman, um, can you tell a little bit about
link |
I actually don't know much about the British empire.
link |
She had a good run.
link |
I think it's like 70 years, you know, as a Shakespeare, they, you know, the, oh, I guess
link |
what's the word, Pax Romana, the, the, uh, the period of Rome that it was at peace and
link |
they flourished like a couple of emperors like Trajan or some good ones.
link |
And I think he was part of the Pax Romana that sort of just a peace and a comfortable
link |
flourishing time and England, uh, had sort of that in their empire under her successful
link |
She murdered her cousin.
link |
She, you know, the movies, there's, uh, you know, um, Kate Blanchett plays her and, and
link |
And she didn't win the Oscar because fucking Gwyneth Paltrow put a, put a British accent
link |
on in Shakespeare in love.
link |
Why do I know this?
link |
Because I'm not a full man.
link |
I'm a comedian, which means I do skits and I perform, um, and I, uh, Kate Blanchett's
link |
incredible actress at great movies.
link |
She was just so, and here's the thing, she, she never got married.
link |
She was, she was so, um, astute at public relations and, and, and, and imagine how strong
link |
you got to be as a woman to lead the greatest empire maybe known to man at the time and
link |
to do so, so successfully.
link |
How Machiavellian you have to be, how idealist you have to be, how much of a good marketer
link |
Propaganda machine was on point.
link |
She was married to England.
link |
She was adored the way she adorned herself.
link |
You walked in, you're like, holy men, God just walked in here.
link |
And of course she got fucked.
link |
I mean, who doesn't fuck?
link |
Even robots one day will fuck.
link |
But she was, she, she did that propaganda thing and historians aren't, uh, haven't,
link |
they haven't decided this, but I believe she fucked.
link |
And I believe she did that as a tool of propaganda.
link |
I'm married to England.
link |
So you, oh, you're, you're directly referring to like using sex as a way to manipulate people.
link |
Well, she, her, she was known as like the, the Virgin queen.
link |
And uh, and her thing was like, I'm married to England.
link |
Like I can't be distracted by man or woman, blah, blah, blah.
link |
She never had any kids, nothing.
link |
I think she did that as a tool of manipulation, which you need.
link |
Rulers need to, you know, Obama made you feel good and then he went and bombed, carpet bombed
link |
You need to feel good about your guy, no matter how evil they are.
link |
And she was fucking a dictator.
link |
But when you look back at her, everyone's like, oh my God, she was so great.
link |
The horror and the shit that she had to do, she didn't put that in the history books,
link |
but that's what probably was part of what made her successful.
link |
And um, she's a fascinating character to, to ponder because she was so successful and,
link |
and England flourished so much.
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And it's just fascinating to me because she was the great Virgin queen.
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And can you think of, there's no other woman who was that, I mean, Angela Merkel, I mean,
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I mean, there's nobody who comes close and defeating the Spanish Armada, I think that
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happened under her.
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I mean, I'm no professional, but I mean, the, the woman crushed.
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Do you think it's more effective to lead by love, which just sounds like what she did
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from the PR perspective or by fear?
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Where do you, where do you land on that?
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That's a great question.
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Um, I'm not, we got to ask Joe.
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Well, yeah, this is interesting cause I think leading in the 21st century in whatever ways
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I think it's very difficult to lead by fear.
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I mean, um, that's why I find Putin fascinating and like really fascinating.
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Like is he a relic of another era or is he something that will still be necessary in
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the coming decades for certain nations?
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I think he's a, I don't think he's a relic from another era.
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I think his background, I think he is who you think he is because his background was
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His background was in subterfuge and espionage.
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I think I've said the word subterfuge maybe 10 times now, but he, uh, like big words,
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I just sitting here with you.
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It's my, it's time to flex.
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Um, but he, um, he's very good at that, right?
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Like, uh, controlling people with psychology and even if you look at the way he sort of
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used the internet and, um, has sort of been, you know, gotten in to the citizens of other
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countries opinions and it's very KGB.
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He also looks great without a shirt on a pony on a horse on a horse.
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I thought he would choose a pony cause a pony smaller makes him would, uh, would you, would
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you put queen Elizabeth as the greatest leader of all time?
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If you look at Elizabeth as a woman and you look at, uh, you look at the, the length of
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the reign, I think it's like 70 something years or something like that, that she reigned
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success man, success.
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She used the church, she used public psychology, Shakespeare, the greatest playwright of all
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time, uh, under her reign, you know, people were going to plays and, and, uh, it was a,
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it was a success front and she was marauding everywhere else marauding and culling resources
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for the empire and just say a absolute successful.
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It's even, uh, a token of her success.
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We don't consider her a dictator.
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She's a dictator, you know, she was queen.
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I, this is my thing I love about the feudal system that these fucking countries still
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have feudal systems.
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They're celebrating a horrible thing, divine right of Kings oppression, Kings were dictators
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and now they have fucking ceremonial.
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Why don't we have a ceremonial Fuhrer?
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What is in German?
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He doesn't do any of the bad stuff.
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He just rolls around and does, I mean, it's like, what the fuck?
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There's no difference between a Hitler and a fucking King.
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They did the same horrible shit.
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Why not a fucking ceremonial conqueror, Alexander the Great walks in, rapes a little bit, but
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It's for ceremony.
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He represents the country.
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Macedonia is Greek.
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It's interesting to see that, uh, some you're starting to see a bit of that in Russia was
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Stalin, actually the celebration of a, of a man that helped win the great patriotic war.
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So like you, you're already starting to see that it's very possible in history books,
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you'll be seen as maybe like a Genghis Khan type of character and you forget the millions
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So you're one of the most successful and brilliant people the world has ever seen.
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So you're the good person to ask, uh, for advice.
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You know, there's a lot of young people that look up to you, uh, God bless their souls
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Made the right choice.
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What advice would you give to a young person?
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Maybe to yourself, to a young version of yourself, you know, and just how to live a successful,
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I think the magic happens when you are stubbornly doggedly you and you meet other people who
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are doing the same and, um, the real magic of life, the real true currency in this ephemeral
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life is sort of the communication that happens between people.
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Uh, that's the real currency, friendships, love, it's, it's cliche, but it's a, I think
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the meaning of life is to experience, to experience love.
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And, uh, I think, uh, people often mistake, maybe it's because of Hollywood films and
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things like that, that love is a feeling, but it's not, it's an action.
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So, uh, that took me a while to learn and I think that's why I've made decisions since
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that I think have been good for me and healthy for me.
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Love is an action.
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People can say things, you can feel things, um, that doesn't mean they're necessarily
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It's all chemical reactions.
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It's all, um, tied to our immaturity and, uh, psychological issues and, uh, survival,
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but action when some, when you do things, when you act out of love and you, the, that's,
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that's what it's about.
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Is there, uh, times when you were younger where you were kind of dishonest with who
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you are to yourself in terms of like, what, what kind of things did you have to do to,
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to shake yourself up and be like, okay, I thought, um, I thought I'm going to be a scientist,
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but instead I realized I'm going to do this.
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My parents were funny.
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My, my comedy is a hard, hard thing to explain to, uh, you know, an immigrant mother who
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came here and under Nazi occupied Crete and became a human rights lawyer and lawyer.
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And, uh, my brother's a lawyer and my father was a lawyer, you know, clawed his way up.
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His dad was a, was a, um, so your disappointment, um, the black sheep.
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My brother went to Oxford Georgetown law at Brown, you know, has a master's in pot, you
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know, law degrees.
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My mother has followed up for law degrees, uh, you know, uh, she was on the human rights
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commission in New York up for a judgeship under Dinkins, um, wrote a, you know, um,
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she was the editor of Unitar.
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She wrote a seminal piece on the human rights of children for the United Nations.
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Um, and, uh, yeah, it was a comedian.
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I was always a fuck up.
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And, uh, the thing that I was best at, the only thing I was ever decent at was just like
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making people laugh.
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I don't know where that comes from, but, uh, was there ever a question or did, was there
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a moment where you decided this is what I'm going to do?
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There was a moment after I graduated college.
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I was just thinking about all types of stuff that other people imposed on me.
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And, um, I was honest with myself and once I figured out it was an actual career path,
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I wasn't even aware back then the internet wasn't huge, you know, late 99, 2000 it wasn't
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So I didn't, I thought Robin Williams was just like an actor.
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I didn't know there was comedy clubs and all.
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So once I learned that I was just like, I tried it.
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I suffer from massive anxiety.
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I remember the first time I did comedy, my arms went numb.
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I started having a massive panic attack.
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I have my first set.
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I can show it to you.
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I suggest I just come video.
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And the reason why I kept saying thank you is because I forgot my old jokes.
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And then they laughed because of the amount of times I said thank you.
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And then once they laughed, I was, I remembered the whole thing and I did the five minutes
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and I remember getting off.
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And for a person who never felt like he had a place anywhere, nothing ever felt right.
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That felt like, okay, I found it.
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This is what I'm supposed to do.
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It was the only time in my life I felt that I haven't felt that sense.
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Never felt it before.
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So that's the only thing I can do.
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And yeah, I had that, you know, it's funny cause there's a similar experience like immigrant
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family and the world tells you to do certain things and you think that's right, but, but
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then you put yourself in situations by luck probably where it's like, oh, this, this,
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I don't know what this means, but this feels right.
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I think the biggest moment like that for me was, I don't know what to make of it exactly,
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but when I met Spot, the robot, the legged robot, it was like five years ago, it felt
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like this, the depth of fascinating ideas that are yet to be explored with this thing.
link |
This felt like a journey.
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It was like a door that opened and I was like, I don't want to be a professor.
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At that point I realized I don't want to do sort of a generic stuff.
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I want to do something crazy.
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I want to do something big.
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That's the reason I stepped away from MIT.
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That's the reason I have this burning desire to do a startup.
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That's the reason I came to Austin.
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I don't know what the hell it all means, but you just kind of follow that.
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That sounds like you're following what's doggedly you.
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And also I think I just to, just to piggyback off it, I think that means no matter what
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it is, because I think our, the American dream is sold like, Hey, if you're not Beyonce or
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if you're not famous, you're not worth it.
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And that's what I love so much about certain countries like Sweden, it's like where everyone
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has healthcare and stuff like that because everyone's a little is valued more.
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It's like whatever, if you want to be a doorman, do it like it's all the same.
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Prince was not happy.
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There's no, just because you're rich or famous, you're still the same guy with your possessions
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are a lot little, you know?
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It's like, I have met some doormen.
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I have met some tax cappers that I lie to you not are more fascinating.
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I have comedians are horrible people, so I want to get away from all of them.
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I have very few friends, Paul Verzi, Tim Dillon, who are comedians because they're awful, awful
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Some of the people who you know the most, who are the most famous are not who they say
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Usually that's the case.
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They're putting on that public facade because they're fucking sociopaths and they're horrible
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people and some of the most beautiful people I've met and the most interesting people I've
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met have regular jobs.
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There is no shame in any fucking job.
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We don't all have to be rappers with like rims.
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It's just a weird thing.
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Fame is a drug and yeah, comedians, I agree with you.
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There's some part of me that knows that there'll be a moment in my life when I'm standing there
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with like a sword or a knife in my stomach and looking at Tim Dillon's smiling face saying
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you shouldn't have trusted me, you stupid fuck.
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So on that note, Yannis, I've been a huge fan of yours.
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I love what you're doing with Long Days Now, your new podcast, and I obviously love all
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the stuff you've done before with History of Hyenas, the chemistry you have with yourself
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is also fun to watch.
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So man, I'm a huge fan.
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It's a huge honor that you come down here.
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Thanks so much for talking to me.
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It means so much to me to hear you say that.
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I really appreciate it.
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I'm a big fan of yours and having me on has been amazing and just thank you, man.
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Thank you for having me on and people, if they want to watch my special, it's called
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Blowing the Light.
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It's on YouTube and please come listen to Long Days of Podcasts and let's go eat some
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Thanks for listening to this conversation with Yannis Papas and thank you to Wine Access,
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Blinkist, Magic Spoon, and Indeed.
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Check them out in the description to support this podcast.
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And now let me leave you with some words from Karl Marx.
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Revolutions are the locomotives of history.
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Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.