back to indexYannis Pappas: History and Comedy | Lex Fridman Podcast #175
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The following is a conversation with Yannis Papas, a comedian who cohosted the podcast
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History Hyenas that I came across when I was researching the Battle of Crete from World War II.
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He and his cohosts were hilarious in their rants about history and about life. The chemistry they
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have is probably the best of any cohosted comedy podcast or even podcast in general
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that I've ever heard. As of a few weeks ago, unfortunately, History Hyenas is no more,
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at least for now, because all good things must come to an end. But Yannis hosts a new podcast
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called Long Days with Yannis Papas, plus he has a comedy special on YouTube for free.
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Quick mention of our sponsors, Wine Access, Blinkist, Magic Spoon, and Indeed. Check them out
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in the description to support the podcast. As a side note, let me say that some of you
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have noticed that I have not spoken with too many computer scientists, physicists, biologists,
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or engineers recently. The reason has to do mostly with the risk aversion of many of these folks
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in the time of COVID, especially as they get closer to taking the vaccine. I'm tested several times
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a week and still some people are just more willing than others to have an in person conversation in
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these times. I only do these podcasts in person because I look for the possibility of a genuine
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human connection. I'm willing to sacrifice a lot for that. Maybe it's silly, but I look for the
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magic that Charles Bukowski writes about in his poem, Nirvana, the magic that is somehow in the air
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on those rare occasions when two people meet, talk, and you notice that while on the surface,
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you may be worlds apart, you're still somehow woven from the same fabric. I've had that with
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many guests. Jim Keller comes to mind, but many others as well. I'm an AI person. Machine learning,
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robotics, computer science is my passion. Trust me, I can't wait to be having more technical
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conversations again, but I will also continue to mix in comedians, musicians, historians, and of
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course, wise all seeing sages like Yanis Papas and Tim Dillon, just to keep it as Tim likes to say
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fun. This is the Lex Friedman podcast, and here is my conversation with Yanis Papas.
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You've cohosted until recently an amazing history comedy podcast called The History Hyenas.
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So you're a bit of a student of history. Yeah, an F student of history.
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F student. Yeah. Okay, I thought it was more like a D minus.
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D minus, yeah. Okay. Still got to repeat the grade if you get all D minuses. I actually had a 0.67
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GPA average my freshman year and I had to do it again. This podcast is going to be the spectrum
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of human intelligence. It runs the gamut from there to here. So this is going to set the low
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bar. I'm barely sliding into human. I'm closer to chimp. And I bring that up that you're also friends
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with the great, the powerful Tim Dillon. So let's talk about power and the corrupting effects of
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power. Sometimes I look at Tim Dillon as he grows in power. I thought you meant he's in size.
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Size, I think they're correlated. Yeah, I saw him. I've been in Austin a couple of days. I saw him
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once. We had eight meals in one day. Eight meals. Yeah. So I feel like I've been here longer than
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I have just because of the meals with Dylan. Kid likes biscuits and barbecue. Okay. So he's more
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like, see, I was imagining Putin or something like that. He's more like the North Korean dictator.
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They get along great those two. Yeah. I mean, Tim Dillon and King John Ohm would be like,
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they could make like a buddy cop movie. They would get along like Lethal Weapon. That would be a good
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pitch movie. Great podcast. Yeah, that would be a great podcast. Yeah. So much to talk about. So
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many similar ideas about the world. So what do you think the world would look like if Tim Dillon
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was given absolute power? He seems like a person that's an interesting study of the corrupting
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effects of power. Yeah, you don't want to give him power. I don't even want him wearing a suit.
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Like I want a guy who's as thoughtful and educated as you wearing a suit.
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Suits corrupt you. You put that suit on, you start feeling that power. Definitely.
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It's like, you know, yeah, I don't even want Tim Dillon in his suit. Power would,
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he would kill people. He'd get rid of anything that he deemed. I mean, if you made a lobster roll
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and it wasn't up to Tim Dillon's standard, he would have you executed. The entire restaurant
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staff is just gone. He would have people below his food standard execute. There'd be programs,
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not of people who are political dissidents, but of people who don't meet his food standard. His
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cuisine standard is high and he's usually right. Do you think power does corrupt people? Yes. Like
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one of the reasons we mentioned offline Joe Rogan, he's been an inspiration to me because he gets,
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he gets, if you get power, just more famous and famous. And yes, probably a bit of power in terms
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of influence. And he's still pretty much the same guy. I'm not sure that's going to be true
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for everybody. Do you ever think, ask yourself for that question? Yeah, he's a rare breed.
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He's like a benign king. I've, I've, most people I meet who are like really powerful are like
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douchebags and that's how they got there. I think that's psychopaths have the advantage because
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they don't have feelings. And Joe's a rare example. He's just a powerhouse of will. And he, I do think
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about that. Yeah, I think I should be stopped right now. Just stop me right now because yeah,
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power for me, I would, when people get power, they indulge. I don't think it changes anyone. It
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just reveals your darkest. You know, people aren't supposed to have anything they want. You got to
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be able to struggle for everything. So I would have a harem. I'd be like a Roman dictator. Yeah,
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I'd be like a Roman emperor. I mean, people call them emperors. They were dictators. The most
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effective leaders are dictators. I hope we get back to that. Democracy hasn't worked. I'm ready
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for a succession of Caesars and I want to start with AOC. That's true. Dictators get the job done.
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They do. They do. At a certain point you got, that's why social workers can only get you so far.
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You need action. I was a social worker for five years and all you do is ask about medications and
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you don't solve anything. I do ask myself of that because I'm more in the tech space of constructing
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systems that prevent me from being corrupt because right now I'm all about love and all
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about those kinds of things. But I wonder, you said it just reveals the darkness. The problem
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is we might not be aware of our own darkness. I have the same feeling about money actually. I've
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been avoiding thinking about money, basically constructing my moral system, my moral compass
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around money. At the moment I feel a little too happy about the idea of owning some cool shiny
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thing. I started to think, okay, I'm not going to own that shiny thing because I'm afraid of the
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slippery slope of it. You ever think about that kind of stuff? Yeah. The funny thing about the
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capitalist system is it puts sort of profit motive above beauty. You notice when you see
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certain cities, especially in the old days where buildings used to be beautiful and now they're
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just like boxes. They throw a kid up and it's just for all profit margin. It's the illusion of
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permanence that it's like, oh, let me get as much money as I can. You're like, yeah. My dad used to
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say, everyone, it's a cliche, but you can't take it with you. It's comical to me that we're here
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trying to get this infinite amount. It's like Sisyphus. We're all trying to climb this hill,
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but I mean, rock's going to fall on us. I think that's a healthy outlook. Yeah.
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My dad always used to say before he passed, he would say you have to survive not only physically,
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but you have to survive emotionally. I think a lot of people forget about the emotional part
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of survival. You have to survive emotionally and humor and understanding reality in its
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objective context helps with that. Accepting reality as this ephemeral thing that you're
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in really just a part of, but not as significant as your ego wants you to believe is a start.
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That's a good foundation for surviving emotionally. What does that mean? Surviving emotionally?
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Like what's an ideal life look like for you? You can't take things too seriously. You can't
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because they're ephemeral. They're not permanent. Nothing's permanent. Your bank account's not
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permanent. Your problems aren't permanent. Nothing's permanent. Your abilities aren't permanent.
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Your memory is not permanent. Your dick getting hard is not permanent. Can I curse on this or
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just go out to dinner? Yeah. You can curse to your heart's content. Okay. Yeah. I mean,
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gender's not even permanent anymore. I think I'm going to change maybe and live my second half
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as another gender just to have, I'm bored with this gender. So it's like nothing is permanent.
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And so accepting that emotionally is a good start to being more flexible. You got to be
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flexible. Like my dad used to say, anything too stiff snaps. You got to, you know, it's a cliche
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and people have said it a bunch of different ways, but Bruce Lee's right, man. Be water. Be water.
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Yeah. Bukowski has this quote about love that love is a fog that fades with the first light
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of reality. So he's a romantic, that guy. But that even love is a thing that just doesn't last very
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long. No. You know, some people would disagree with that. Maybe morphs, like water. It changes,
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right? It might not be, it might not be this, because he's mostly just loved like prostitutes,
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I think. So it was kind of love. Yeah. No demand, no responsibilities. Yeah. It's a financial
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transaction. Yeah. F Fhermore was ever, you mentioned your dad. He passed away two, a year
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and a half ago. What did you learn from him? I love my dad. My dad, I would say my dad was my
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hero. He was just my dad really embodied those values. And I think for better or worse, it's
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made me who I am. My dad was a painter. He was a lawyer. He was a lieutenant in the military.
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He was New Yorker. New Yorker born in Brad Brooklyn. His dad, his dad, you know, surprise owned a
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diner. So that's sort of the Greek passport. That's the immigration passport for Greeks
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into America. And yeah, my dad played football. He just, my dad did what he wanted. He lived
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as he wanted at all costs. And I think I got that from him for better or worse. I think it's hurt me
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in my pursuits. If you consider money and fame to be paramount, you know, I've always done what I
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wanted. If I stopped wanting to do it, I just stopped doing it. And I think I got that from my dad.
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So maybe for better or worse, that's what I learned from him. But that's a real currency,
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you know, feeling like you're in love with what you're doing when you're doing it.
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Maybe perhaps that's worth more than money. I don't know. You miss him? Yeah, every day. Every
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day. But I'm happy that he got 91 years. It's very rare. I mean, he smoked for 60 years.
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Talk about like a guy who was an outlier. I mean, he smoked like 60 years, like packs. I mean,
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and he didn't die from that. He died. He had prostate cancer, which is the way men should go.
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Your dick should give out. It should start from the dick. I mean, we focus so much of our life
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on the dick that that's the way that's a successful life. And that's why every man eventually gets
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prostate cancer, because that is the universe's way of saying like, the thing you focused on the
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most is you put the most energy into is the thing that's spent. And it's going to your rotting is
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going to start there. So that's a successful life. And it just spread all over his body. And he slowly
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died. I was with him when he died. And that meant a lot to me because me and my brother weren't
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talking at the time because we're Greeks. We're talking again. But that's how it is.
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You got a few brothers, right? I got two brothers. But I wanted to make sure I was with him
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when he died. And I got lucky and I was in the room with him when he died.
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You were in the room with your brother and you weren't?
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No, my brother wasn't there. We were kind of doing shifts. I was I was there. I spent the night the
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dad my the night my dad died. He died in the early in the morning. And I heard the death
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right at the last breath. And it was just I think it was he knew I was there. And I think that just
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probably meant something to him. And I'm just glad I was there.
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Does that make you sad that life is ephemeral, like you said?
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Yeah, that you die. Yeah.
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What do you think about your own death? Do you meditate on that?
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I think it I think the actual if there is a point to life, it's to
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hopefully not fear death to accept reality. I think that's important. I think so much goes
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awry in the human condition when we lose touch with reality. Every political system that's led
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to mass murder and everything, I think because it's because the the tenants of those political
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philosophies ended up being utopian. They were detached from reality, detached from nature.
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And so I think it's it's very important to accept and acknowledge your own mortality.
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I think it's the foundation for what makes a good person, a moral person, a contributing
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member of society, because it's true. True things should be the foundation of all things.
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If what you believe is based on illusion, you're going to end up doing destruction.
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Whether that destruction is on a scale of one to 10, you are going to be
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destructive because it's not real. It's a fantasy. It doesn't exist.
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See, the thing is the truth is about I don't think you can ever reach truth. Truth is about
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like constantly digging and to push back on your idea that you should accept death.
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I think the more honest response to death, so the least honest is to run away from it,
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create illusions that help you imagine like there's not a death. The next is to accept it,
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but the real honest one is to fear it because I I mean, I'm with Ernest Becker as a philosopher.
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I wrote a book called Denial of Death. He says that much of the human condition is based in
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the fear of mortality. That's the creative force of the human energy. Like Freud said,
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do you want to sleep with your mother? He said, no, that's not what motivates you.
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Maybe his mom wasn't hot though, I mean, or he wasn't Greek because apparently at a poll,
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we found that all things go to bad. Yeah.
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Thanks. Thanks for that. Thanks. I just don't know if his mom was a looker or not. I mean,
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I have to Google it. All right. Yeah.
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I'll look up on Google images. Yeah. No, but I think the honest, as he says,
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the thing that we run away from is that there's a terror. He calls it like terror. There's
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something called terror management theory that's some philosophers after him followed on that
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we're basically trying to run away from this fear and acceptance is actually creating an
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illusion for yourself. Like you can actually accept something as terrifying as this. So
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he's more with the Stoics. The Stoics constantly meditate on their death. I mean, they, what does
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that mean? I mean, it's kind of, you know, acceptance of death isn't a thing you do like
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on a Monday and then you're done. It's a thing you constantly have to meditate on, like reminding
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yourself, like this ride is over. It could be over today. And that's something you're,
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if you think about every single day, it gives you an appreciation of Woody Allen movies,
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at least. It gives you appreciation of basically everything, including Woody Allen movies, which
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shows you how deep your appreciation for life could be. I've actually haven't been following
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much of what Woody Allen's, but apparently he's been a troublemaker from most of his life.
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He's, yeah, I mean, you know, he's caused a little bit of strife. He's left a little, yeah, he's
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left a little confusion in his wake, for sure. But I mean, you know, that's another one, separate
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the art from the artist. He's got, I mean, the guys will go down in history as the greatest.
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He's made, I mean, a movie a year and they're all, you can always find something good about
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each movie, like the dialogue or whatever. I love what you're saying. It's interesting,
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but the only thing I would say to push back a little bit, since we're playing a little table
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tennis here, is I don't know if it's a choice to fear death. That's more of an, it seems more
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instinctual. It seems like something that nature wants you to do, because I've been in positions
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where I thought I was going to die, like I've been shot and I had those moments. And then nature
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also kicks in an instinct, which is acceptance, where you kind of, I don't know, it's a chemical
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release or whatever. I don't know. We're robots, basically. So some sort of chemical is released
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that protects you, but there is an acceptance. I don't know how much was a conscious choice,
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probably very little. And that's the point I'm making is it's instinctual. We don't really
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have a choice in fearing death. Otherwise, there would be no progression. We wouldn't,
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all life seems to want to survive, not by choice, but by instinct.
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So he argues that the fear is not the instinctual, it's not the animalistic stuff. That's the thing
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that makes us special. What humans are able to do is to have a knowledge that we're going to
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die one day. Animals don't have that. Animals fear is instinctual. It's like, holy shit,
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what's that sound over there? He says we're actually able to contemplate the fact that this
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ride ends. And that kind of cognitive construct is difficult for us to deal with. What the hell
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does that mean? Just to think about it's going to be over at a certain point. It's just over,
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lights out. It's very difficult to load that into whatever this little brain we got. What
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does that actually mean? Maybe that's what gives everything meaning. Because if everything lasted
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forever, if this went on an infinite, there would be no meaning to it. I'd be like, hey,
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if I don't see it tomorrow, I'll see it in a million years. There would be no meaning.
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There would be no urgency. There would be no feelings. There'd be no nothing of magnitude
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or superficiality. It would all just be this kind of, it would be torture. That would actually be
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torture to be here forever. I mean, I'm already sick of this place. And I'm just in my 40s,
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like I'm done. I'm sick of me. I'm sick of everything. A lot of people, when they talk
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about mortality, they consider mortality appealing because you get a chance to do basically
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all these things you might not get a chance to do otherwise, like all the kinds of travel
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broadly, read every book, explore every idea, do every hobby, all those kinds of things.
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Somebody else I was talking to mentioned, the reality of being immortal would be
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be more likely, I like this idea, more likely would be you just sitting there doing nothing
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because and putting off all that travel and exploration till later because you'll always
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have time. And so when you're going to have what actual immortality would look like for a bunch
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of humans is people sitting there doing nothing. It'll be like a Greek cafe, just sitting around
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drinking coffee, watching. I love it. Yeah. It's a lazy man's paradise. Yeah. But it's so interesting
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because that rings true to me for what humans are like is we'll basically just put off all
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those exciting adventures and just be lazy, become lazier and lazier and lazier because you'll always
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have a chance to do all the exciting things and we'll just get, we'll basically become Tim Dill.
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We just sit there and have a podcast and that's it. He works hard. Yeah. I mean, that sounds
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actually like heaven, dude. That's speaking to my heart really. I mean, I'm at heart. I'm a very
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lazy person. I always try to find ways to lie down. Like if I'm sitting, I'll figure out a way to kind
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of contort myself till later. That's an interesting thing to like in. Yeah. If you can always push
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something off. Yeah. I like that. I think that's heaven. And we just changed your mind. You kind
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of like the immortality. Yeah. I kind of like it. No. So there'll be no thirsts. No. You can always
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put it off. I want to have, I want to bang this girl. You're like, I'll put it off. But now I'm
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thinking about Muslim heaven and they may be offering the best deal. I mean, if it was an expo
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and they had a booth, I may go with them because they offer 62 or 72, but then I get sick of them.
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I'd want to, I don't know. I always wondered like, are you given the 62 versions or you choose? Can
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you create them like an avatar, like a video game or are you just given? I don't know what the
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number why it's important to have that high number. First of all, I think it's a mistranslation
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about the versions, but outside of that, outside of that, I feel like the conversation is really
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important. I don't think they ever specify like what kind of books these girls read. Like what are
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they, what are they into? Like the quality of the conversation. I think if you're talking about
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eternity, the quality of the intellect and the conversation and the personalities is way more
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important. And the Greeks have an ancient, ancient expression, which my mother always used to say,
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which is everything in moderation, nothing in excess. So try and always get the status quo.
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And yeah, that many women, eventually it's like the magic Johnson effect. I say a Thomas effect,
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it's just too much. And you're going to end up, you're going to end up banging a dude is what
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I'm saying. You're going to get sick of it because it's too much. And there's going to be a eunuch
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that finds its way into your harem that's been proven throughout history, every empire, when
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you have all that power. And again, this goes back to power corrupting. If you have, if there's no
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struggle, there's no meaning, there's the value is from the journey, the, the working hard to
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struggle. And if it's just given to you because you're a sultan or you're Alexander the Great or
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whatever, you're going to get bored and you're going to bang a dude. That's, it's, I think that's
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a scientific axiom, actually. Eventually you'll get bored and bang a dude. Yeah. But I think it
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won't stop there. I think you'll go to animals, you go to robot. I mean, eventually it all ends
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up in robots and then the robots rebel and then the humus will be destroyed. Yeah. I'm sorry. If
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we're speaking truth, you said the value of life, one of the highest ideals is to seek truth,
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I think if we're being honest. Can I ask you a quick question? If you, if you live in a small,
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I come from small islands, right? And so there's a stereotype that that's where they bang animals.
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But if you come from a very small community, you know, an island or something, and you have
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the choice of banging a family member or an animal, which one is worse on the moral scale?
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Because you're technically not related to the animal. Right. This is interesting. I mean,
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all of these are human constructs, these ideas, but yet for me personally, taboo would be more
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taboo to, to, to have sex with a family member. Yeah. I mean, animal, I mean, okay. It's good
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to know where you stand on that. I think if you were, you know, that if they didn't have,
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they didn't know they had that question. I just, they just learned a little bit about you and now
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I know I look forward to the internet clipping that out. Yeah. I mean, there, there is, listen,
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outside of, outside of that, I do think about that a lot. It sounds ridiculous about morality
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connected to animals in terms of all the, the, the factory farming and so on. It seems like
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that's one of the things we'll look because I love meat, but I kind of feel bad about it.
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And bad in a way where I think if we look like a hundred years from now, we'll look back at this
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time as like one of the great like tortures and injustices that we humans have committed.
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And I mean, all that has to do with the sex with the animal has to do with consent and about the
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experience of suffering of the animals. The reason I think about that personally a lot,
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because I think about robotics, I think about creating artificial consciousnesses, artificial
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like beings that have some elements of the human nature. And then you start to think like, well,
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what does it mean to suffer? What does it mean for entity to exist such that it deserves rights?
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This is something that the founding fathers were thinking about like, you know, all men are created
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equal. What is it? Which, who's included in the men who, who's not in that, in that sentence?
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And our animals included in that are robots. I honestly think that there will be a civil
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rights movement for robots in the future. I don't know. Is that the Turing test? The way you try to,
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is that what they call it? Where you're trying to see if AI can think like a human or whatever or
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feel like a human? Well, it's the Turing test closely defined as more about talk like a human.
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So you can, you can imagine systems that are able to, you can have a conversation like this,
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and I would be a robot, for example. But that doesn't mean I would, in the, in society, that
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doesn't mean I deserve rights or that doesn't mean I would be conscious. It doesn't mean that I would
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be able to suffer and to experience pleasure and dream and all those kinds of human things.
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The question isn't whether you're able to talk, which is passed in the Turing test.
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The question is whether you're able to feel, to be, I mean, to, I go back to suffering.
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The thing that the, that our documents protect us against is suffering. Like we don't want humans
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to suffer. And if a robot can suffer, that discussion starts being about like, well,
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shouldn't we protect them? Currently, we don't protect animals.
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We protect that dog. There's laws. There's actual legislation that protects dogs for
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tortures places. Yeah. And you know, dogs is something I don't think people really
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understand enough about. It's one of my obsessions. So they, they, my dad always used to say those,
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he goes, those things are, those things are basically human. And I mean, they dream,
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they have anxiety. And what people often overlook about dogs is without dogs, we wouldn't be here.
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We would not have ever evolved from hunter gatherer to agrarian to, you know,
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civilization. We wouldn't have cities. We wouldn't have anything. I mean,
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they are our partner in survival and they are a magical animal. There's no,
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there's no animal that was, it was like destiny almost. I mean, a malleable animal.
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There's no animal that's that malleable that in a few generations, you can tailor to
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a specific job that you need. And without that animal, without dogs doing that animal,
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protecting our crops from, from, you know, scavengers and stuff like that, you know,
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the list goes on. We wouldn't be here. So we, that's an often overlooked fact that human evolution
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was not done in a vacuum just with humans. I mean, without dogs, we would have never evolved.
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I mean, we weren't the apex predator for most of our existence. We weren't even the apex predator.
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I mean, we're getting eaten by hyenas, which is my favorite animal. And, you know,
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it's kind of an injustice to, I mean, I'm kind of mad at dogs. We deserve to get eaten by hyenas,
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but without dogs, we wouldn't be here. And dogs, dogs deserve the protection.
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So do horses. They fucking lugged us around for thousands of years. And now these fucking
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German psychopaths are eating them or whatever. We should not eat horse meat just on like,
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be a good dude, man. These things lugged us around for generations. They're beautiful,
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you know, ride them. Or I don't know. I don't know, but it rubs me the wrong way that we eat horses.
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Yeah, the horse is one is interesting. And one of my favorite books is Animal Farm by Orwell.
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And the horses don't get a good ending in that. I kind of, my spirit animal, I suppose,
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is the horse from Animal Farm Boxer, where he says, I will work harder. That's his motto.
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I work really hard at stupid things. That's basically what I did. I just hit my head against
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the wall for no reason whatsoever. But that probably fulfills, you have a big brain,
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you were probably born with a big brain that kind of fulfills. It's killing neurons.
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It's exercise for you. Yes. Yes. Don't you think some animals deserve to be eaten though? Kind of
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like hyenas? Come on, dude. I mean, you got to respect hyena. Okay, so let me just comment on
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the dog thing. There is like conferences on dog cognition from a perspective of people that study
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psychology, cognitive science, neuroscience, dogs are fascinating. The way they move their eyes
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is they're able to, they're the only other animal besides humans, they're able to communicate with
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their eyes. They can look at a thing and look back at you and look back at the thing to communicate
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that we're all like, through our eyes, communicate that we're collaborating. So every other animal
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uses their eyes to actually look at things. The dogs use it to like communicate with us humans.
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It's fascinating. There's a lot of other elements of dogs that are amazing. Yeah. I mean, if it
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wasn't for them, they are the ones, they were our first alarm system for predators. They would
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defend us. I mean, the besenji is one of the most ancient dogs. I mean, they're tiny, but they're
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fearless. Yeah. And they would chase off lions. Like, you know, there'd be packs of them and they'd
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chase off lions and protect the tribes. It's, it's, it's, I even get tingles like thinking about
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dogs because I have a dog, I love my dog. It's just, and there's something about when you're
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walking with your dog off leash in the woods, it's like, there's something about it that's like,
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that, that tugs at that millions of years of evolution, like that gut, you know, it's like,
link |
I had a Finnish friend of mine, he's a comic Tommy Volamy's once told me, he was like, he was like,
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the gut, he's like, I believe in that, like that gut, you know, when you have that feeling,
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he's like, always trust that because that is million, those are all your ancestors. That's
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the survival instinct of all your ancestors and beginning of time, you know, telling you like,
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hey, something's off here, something's, you know, so don't get in the car with Ted Bundy is what
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I'm saying, ladies, how fucking stupid, who, how could you fall for that? You know, he's got a
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fucking sling on, don't get in. Yeah, follow the gut. My question to you, are psychopaths
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essentially robots? So first of all, let's not, you're using the word robot in a derogatory way
link |
that I, I'm triggered by. Okay. So I feel offended. You should be because you know what, people are
link |
always scared of robots, but I actually, I have, I've made the sort of, I've made it to say, hey,
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I've thought about it, like robots have been nothing but helpful. It's the people we should
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be scared of. Right. Again, we're kind of missing the most destructive thing as us because it's,
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but robots are helpful. I mean, this is a fucking robot, you know, I went on hotel tonight,
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I'm already booked up, you know, I got my, I can change my flight if this barbecue with
link |
Rogan goes 16 hours, which whatever Rogan wants to do, I'll do if he wants to kick me in the
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chest, I'll let him kick me in a chest, whatever. Robots are helpful, no?
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Yeah. Tanks and autonomous weapons systems don't kill people, people kill people.
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Yeah, that's. Yeah, the other way is about to click that for you.
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A lot of love for dogs. I appreciate it very much. And at the same time, you have the other thing
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that people seem to have love for, which is cats. And on the flip side of everything you've said,
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I'm trying to understand what have cats ever done for human civilization?
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They keep rodents away. The domesticated cat is very important, keeps rodents away. Yeah,
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that's what they were domesticated for. I mean, they're psychopathic killers who end up killing
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innocent neighborhood chipmunks and birds. They really affect the balance of the local ecosystem,
link |
but not as much as dogs. I mean, dogs are, like you said, they look at humans. I actually read
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an article there, some people were theorizing they're smarter than chimps because of the way
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they can work with humans. And there was one border collie that spoke like 300 words, like a
link |
quarter, almost part of the language. And their nose is like a, I mean, that's like magic, dude.
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If you can smell in my ass to what I had for breakfast from miles away.
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That's intelligence. That's intelligence. I mean, in some ways that their nose,
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if you were to put it on a scale, maybe their nose is more intelligent than our brain for what it
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does. It's like, I mean, dude, they can smell you from miles away. You ever see a dog just like
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sniffing, catching? I mean, it's smelling like, I don't remember the date on it, but it's like,
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they have like millions of receptors or something where we only, thank God we don't have their
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nose. That would make sex weird. Be a little too intense.
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I think you mentioned when you were talking about Woody Allen separating the
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art from the artist. So that brings to mind, Vladimir Putin.
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How about that transition? I don't know. I'm so sorry. But if you look at just powerful leaders
link |
throughout history, Stalin, Hitler, but even model ones like Putin, and we're talking about power,
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how do you explain them? You said that power reveals not corrupt. But do you think there's
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some element to which power corrupted Hitler, power corrupted Stalin after he gained power?
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And the same with Putin. When Putin gained power in 2000, do you think the amount of power that
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he was in possession with for many years, do you think that corrupted him? I mean,
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we're joking about dictators get the job done. There is some sense in certain countries where
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dictator is the only thing that can stabilize a nation. The Conor argument to that for democracies
link |
is like, yeah, but that's a short term solution for a long term problem. So you want to embrace
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chaos with democracy that might be violent. There might be a lot of just constant changing
link |
of leadership. There might be a lot of corruption in the short term. But if you stay strong with
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the ideals of democracy, then you'll be ultimately create something that as beautiful and stable as
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the United States. The sad thing is, is I don't know if that if history tells that story. It's
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like I said, you look at Greece, you look at Rome, democracy kind of failed. The majority of Rome,
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the most successful empire that we've had was a dictatorship for most of its run.
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But I do believe in a republic, which is sort of a limited democracy. I do believe
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in what we have here. I believe in common law, I believe in individual rights.
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But yeah, I think you said it. Nobody could have said it better. Yeah, it's a short term solution.
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You look at Saddam Hussein, when we took him out, then there was a lot of infighting that
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happened that he was kind of keeping at bay because he was a strongman, dictator.
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Well, he's an interesting one. Sorry to interrupt. No.
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From my understanding, I'm sure people will correct me, but when Saddam Hussein first came to power,
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he was, he's quite progressive. So as far as I understand, the signs of an evil
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dictator weren't exactly there. So again, there's, I don't know if power revealed,
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the power corrupted. Or that could have been the initial subterfuge to kind of get everybody.
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Hitler also is a champion of the people. It's built some new roads. It's what psychopaths do.
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And that's why it's interesting to me. I'm not sure if power corrupts psychopaths.
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And now that we know that we can do these CAT scans and brain scans, again,
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we know that they're born that way. Power definitely corrupts people who have
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the capacity to feel and for empathy. Power, I'm not sure. I don't think power corrupts people
link |
who were born psychopathic with that condition or sociopaths who had, who, you know, who were
link |
closer to psychopath and then had some traumatic life. You know, I just think, you know, the best
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way to get away with whatever nefarious thing you want to do to feel, I guess the only thing
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psychopaths can feel is that excitement is to pretend to be the opposite of what you are.
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That's what, that's what killers do. That's what the worst people to look at Bill Cosby.
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I mean, he was, what better way to hide, you know, it's like what wokeness is now. It's like,
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I'm such a great person. And then you're like, are you, it's a great, the best way to hide
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is to pretend to be the opposite of what you are. Just like Ted Bundy. I'm just an innocent,
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helpful guy. And then boom, next thing you know, you're getting your tip bit off.
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It's really well said. It's actually kind of funny because I talk about love a lot.
link |
And I think the people that kind of look at me with squinty eyes, they wonder,
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like, how many bodies are in that closet? You know what I mean? Like,
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there's something about the duality of like, we're so skeptical as a culture. Like, if somebody's
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just like, seems to be kind of sort of, I don't know, positive and all that kind of,
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how do I put it? Just simple, simple minded in the positivity they express,
link |
they think like there's some demons in there. Yeah, especially if you're in New York or we
link |
don't trust any, the nicer you are, the more skeptical we are. I've struggled with that down
link |
here. I've been like, what's your angle? And they're like, no, dude, just I wanted to show
link |
you the best tacos, man. And I'm like, did you really, what do you want? Because in New York,
link |
it's like, if anyone's nice to you, they want something. And that's, the pro side to that is
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it makes you very street smart. The downside to that is it makes you way too cynical.
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Yeah, I definitely experienced that here in Texas, but people are super, super nice. And
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they're like, do all this cool shit for you. And you wonder, what's the angle? What are we doing
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here? You mentioned hyenas as your favorite animal. I forgot to ask you, what the hell
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were you thinking? Why is hyena is your favorite animal? Yeah, it's fascinating animal. Let's look
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at the whole animal kingdom. Like why is it, where do you put, so you like dogs. Love my favorite.
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Your favorite is dogs, but they're kind of outside the animal kingdom because you're thinking about
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wolves. So the animal kingdom is in nature. Dogs escaped nature. They kind of did, yeah.
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Together with humans, like in a collaborative way, exactly. So within nature, within the animal
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kingdom, who's, why not lions? Because lions are predictable. Lions are just, you know,
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they're regal and kind of they bore me. It's like the hot chick. It's like, we get it. You were born
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the best. Yeah. You know, I like a scrappy, by any means necessary, intelligent and cunning.
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But aren't they dishonest? Yeah. And that's why I like them. Yes, they're dishonest. They
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employ chicanery. And that's just a sign of how intelligent they are and how self reliant they
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are and how brutal they are. They're brutally honest in how much they lie, you know, because
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they're trying to get the job done. You know, lions are just like, they're too gifted.
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Everyone hates the fucking, you know, if I went to school with you, of course,
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Lex knows the fucking answer. Lex was born smarter than me, you know, and you'd probably hate me
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because I was the kid always seeking attention and making people. It's like, that's not interesting.
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The guy that claws his way to the top, and those are hyenas, they're also fascinating just by
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merely who they are. I mean, they're not related to any other animal. They're more closely related
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to cats than they are dogs, even though they look like a dog. Yeah. But they're very, like very
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tangentially related even to cats. So they're their own kind of thing, which is kind of mysterious.
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I don't think they fully figured out. And they, the pseudopenist thing is the, I mean,
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this is the talk. Can you explain the pseudopenist side? Yeah. So the, it's a matriarchal society,
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by the way. So that's the unique in and of itself that this, we're talking about an apex predator
link |
that is matriarchal, much like, you know, the praying mantis. It's very rare, though, and they
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are fucking brutal and vicious. And the women are bigger and they let their cubs fight a lot
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of fratricide and they do that because they're like, Hey, you're weaker. They let your brother
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kill you. And the women have penises. The women have pseudopenises that they give birth out of.
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And the birth is violent, but they, they roll around with just huge pieces. They're glue guns
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are just fucking swinging, you know, and the women are just run the show. And it's just cool
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that they have these pseudopenises. It's almost romantic to eat this guy. They have the strongest
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bite force. They, they pulverize bone, like when they eat an animal, the animal's gone.
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There's no bones. They eat everything. They can pulverize. Their bite is so powerful. They pulverize
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bone and eat it. So if they consume an animal, it, the animal was there and then the animal's gone.
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There's no, nothing for the vultures there to, to, to, to grab.
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Yeah, I'm going to have to revisit the hyenas because my experience with the hyenas was from,
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first of all, his, your hyenas, your show has rebranded them for me, but the Lion King, which is a,
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a cartoon, I guess, that I get emotional at every time I, I don't, I hope, I probably have father
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issues every, every guy. You probably just, you just have feelings. You're a good guy. I mean,
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everyone has that. Yeah, you have feelings. That one gets everybody. I don't know. I get, I get every
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father son movie, like Blow with Johnny Depp and Ray Leota. Damn, that's a good movie. And whenever
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there's like a, like the disappointment in the father that his son has become like
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this incredibly successful drug lord that then ends up with nothing in prison,
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just the sadness of them committing through letters. Man, that gets me every time.
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But, but, you know, the hyenas are not presented that well in that.
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No, they're usually portrayed as like, it's really sad that they're portrayed that way in
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lions, like lions aren't dicks. Lions are dicks. They, the, the, the, the alpha lions will kill
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the cubs of another rival. They do all types of dick shit. And yeah, the hyenas are more
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interesting. Like they'll just roll in like a hyena will like, like you said the lie, you know, because
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when you watch the Serengeti, you know, animals will hang out with each other. They're like by
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water. So one hyena will just kind of roll in and pretend like it's not hungry. And then bang,
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they'll use any means necessary to take an animal down. Like lions will just use brute strength.
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Hyenas use cunning and you can even go on the internet and find memes of this where hyenas
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will grab the big animal by the balls and just like, we'll sneak up behind it and bite its balls
link |
and you'll watch an animal 10 size, 10 times the size of the hyena just slowly go down. It's brutal,
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but it's fucking hilarious. So I, I think that's, uh, I don't know if you, uh, follow the, the,
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the channel, um, nature's metal. That's, that one weighs heavy on me and the hyenas on the balls.
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I, it's tough to, to intellectualize it. It's tough to think that the entirety of life on
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earth has this history of, um, predators being violent, just like just the murder that we come
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from. It's crazy. It, uh, just like, we're talking about meditating on death. I actually, I keep
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following and unfollowing that Instagram channel because like sometimes it's too much. Like, I
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can't, I can't continue with the day after like seeing the brutality, the honest brutality of that.
link |
I don't know how to make sense of it. It's important to acknowledge, I think,
link |
because that it's real and we do come from that. We are, we evolve from that. It's important. We
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still do that. We're just hidden from it. You know, when you go to the supermarket and get
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your slab of meat and you know, you're so disconnected from where that meat came from,
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it came from that. And often that's uglier to watch than because there's some honesty.
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You know, the, the, the, the nature channels only show, uh, that's why we have so much sympathy
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with the prey. And this is where I think the same thing with mafia movies. They don't show
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what the mafia really does. They glorify the good parts. That's why I like state of grace,
link |
because it's really just shaking down old people and fucking being dicks. It's not driving nice
link |
cars and being like, you know, so, and animal channels do the same thing. They only show when
link |
the cheetah gets it because that's, that's the exciting part. But what most people don't know
link |
is that those predators strike out almost always. A majority of the time, the prey wins.
link |
And so if you saw that and put in context, you might not hate it as much when the predator
link |
actually gets the little fawn or whatever, because it's so many fawns got away. It's so hard
link |
to capture your prey. And you know, we, we don't have the, the, the, they,
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they, no, no documentary is going to sit around and show you the 99 times the cheetah didn't catch.
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Thank you for this perspective. That's murder is difficult. So like,
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this is the, they never talk about for people who murder how difficult it is, like, to trap
link |
somebody, to convince them to come back to your place. Give it some respect. Put some respect
link |
on Ted Bundy's name. Yeah. It's not easy to convince somebody to get in your Volkswagen
link |
Beagle and clean up. And then you have to kind of plan ahead because you want to keep doing the
link |
murder, mass murder. You got to learn how to saw them up, put them in duffel bags, bury,
link |
you got to learn how to dig, you got to learn how to hide, you got to learn to lie. I mean,
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it's a lot that goes into it that we need to pull the respect on. Yeah.
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Yeah. And you have to figure out which tools work the best for the song and all those kinds of things.
link |
So thank you for the perspective. That's what, that's what I was hoping
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we would bring to this table before. Yeah. So you, you got a little bit Greek in you.
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One of the episodes on, on history hyenas, you talked about the Battle of Crete,
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where the Greeks, your people in, in 1941, in the early stages of the World War II,
link |
there's one of the most epic battles of the war. In fact, in 1941, in a speech made at the Reichstag,
link |
Hitler paid tribute to the bravery of the Greeks saying, it must be said for the sake of historical
link |
truth that amongst all our opponents, only the Greeks fought with the endless courage and
link |
defiance of death. So, okay, what do you make of this battle? What do you make of the spirit of
link |
the Greek people? This is one of the closest things to me because my mother was actually
link |
on the island of Crete during this, the first aerial invasion in history. A lot of people
link |
don't know that. So this is a very significant battle. The first time there was an invasion from
link |
the sky. And my mother was a little girl and she lived through four years of Nazi occupation there.
link |
So my mother was a human rights lawyer and everything, but she just always hated Germans.
link |
It's just what it is. She hated Germans and she never got over it. So the most progressive,
link |
open minded woman just could not get over this. It's a monumental battle that a lot of historians
link |
in retrospect have now looked back on and said because the Nazis, first off, you got to take
link |
it back to when Hitler instructed Mussolini, because let's be honest, Mussolini was Hitler's
link |
bitch. You know what I mean? It was like, if it was Fantasy Island, Hitler was the fucking,
link |
and Mussolini was boss of the plane. Mussolini ever say no to Hitler? Or even maybe? It's always
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like, yes. Yes, we would do it. And it's like, yeah, you have to take Greece. And so, yeah.
link |
So Italy being much bigger than Greece. Greece is a tiny country, 9, 10 million. So Italy invaded
link |
Greece, you know, and Aukidei's a big holiday for Greeks. And this speaks to the spirit. Greeks
link |
in fight until we have a common enemy, and then we unite. You see it throughout history, Sparta
link |
and Athens. You see it in Greek families, where the brothers will fight. But then as soon as we
link |
have a common enemy, we unite. And maybe it's an overactive brain. We think too much, our traditions
link |
philosophy, and we overthink things, and we fight with each other and take things personally. We're
link |
ultra passionate. But when Italy said, hey, we're going to move troops through, you know,
link |
a Greek said, Aukie, which means no. And that was, and then Italy attacked. And we beat the
link |
shit out of them. A much bigger country, much more well equipped country, Greece beat the
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shit out of them, kicked them back into Albania. Actually, not only repelled them,
link |
actually, like conquered some ground in Albania, pushed them back. And then Hitler was like,
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fuck, you know, I was planning my march to Russia. But I have to go down because he basically said
link |
to Mussolini, like, you know, you basically bitch lapped, like, I got to do this myself,
link |
because you such a fucking bitch. So then the Nazis invaded Greece. Obviously, they took the
link |
mainland with fight and shot out. The Greeks never give credit to the British and New Zealand
link |
and Australian troops that were there. You know, they were a large part of this, the majority of
link |
it. But the Greeks fight to civilians. I mean, they fought, you know, the Ottomans were there
link |
400 years, you go to Greece now, there's no evidence, there's virtually no evidence of them
link |
ever being there. That's the Greek spirit, kick them out. And we kicked out hummus too.
link |
So it's like, their culture is gone, you're gone. Because Greeks are, it's Philoptimo,
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it's called Philoptimo. And it's a real thing. Philoptimo is a very little trans, you can't
link |
translate it, but it's kind of like honor, loyalty, friendship, altruism, it's a, it's,
link |
you can't define it, but Greeks know it and we're taught it from our, from our families.
link |
It's a vibe and it's a Greek cultural thing. And we're an old culture and Philoptimo is what
link |
it's called. Philoptimo and it's, it's love, it's passion. And it comes out and it comes out. And
link |
so, so Hitler had to postpone his invasion of, of Russia, went down the island of Crete,
link |
took 10 days to conquer. It's an island to put that in perspective. The country of France
link |
fell in three or four days. I can't even remember because they fucking just rolled over. So what
link |
is it? What, what is a couple of hours matter when you're that much of a fucking pussy?
link |
Yeah. Okay. What is a couple of 12 hour fucking three or four days?
link |
Uh, the island of Crete took the Germans 10 days to conquer. And because of that,
link |
and because of the Greek resistance, Hitler had to postpone his invasion of Russia to winner.
link |
And of course that was, you know, that was his downfall just as it was Napoleon's. And
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never dude, never try to invade Russia. They got millions of people to throw at death.
link |
Every time you read about Russians in history books, like, and a million died. I mean, it's
link |
that you just guys throw millions of people at the problem. And don't fuck with that Russian winner.
link |
And don't fuck with Russian people, dude. They're tough. People in New York know that you don't go
link |
to fucking sheep's head bands are talking shit. You'll end up in a fucking car trunk and they'll
link |
brutally murder you. I do not fuck with Russians. Amen. And then there's, I mean, there's a lot of
link |
people, a lot of historians argue that that battle was because of the Russian winter, because of
link |
delaying the Russian invasion, but also psychologically delaying the invasion. It was the
link |
first time, I think it was the first time the Germans failed not or didn't succeed like they
link |
wanted to early in the war, which is a little like psychologically the impact of that I think is
link |
immeasurable. And also a lot of people argue from a military strategy perspective that the
link |
just like you said, it was an aerial attack and that Hitler didn't think that that kind of attack
link |
would then be useful for the rest of the war. So that's that's a really part where whereas it might
link |
have been very useful. So it's a it's really interesting how these little battles can steer
link |
the directions of war. Of course, me growing up in the Soviet Union, we didn't hear much about this
link |
battle. Just like you said, millions of Soviets died. All those people in history that you read
link |
about dying, those are all civilians, but I mean, not all, but a very large number of them are
link |
civilians. And their stories, obviously, that's the rooted, the literature, the poetry, the music,
link |
just the way people talk, the way they drink vodka, the way they love, the way they hate,
link |
the way they fear, that's all like rooted in World War Two and World War One. And so but we never
link |
kind of think about Europe. And we certainly growing up didn't think about their role in the
link |
United States. All this, there's plenty of stories of heroism in in the Soviet Union, enough enough
link |
for many lifetimes. So but it was fascinating to reach from a Greek perspective. Because I, you
link |
know, I don't have many Greek friends, hoping to change that. This is the beginning of a love affair
link |
of your people. Likewise, the Americans don't hear about the Soviet contribution to the end of
link |
World War Two, because obviously we became, you know, enemies after that, because of the two systems.
link |
But yeah, without the Russians, with World War Two, wouldn't have been one either.
link |
Yeah, the stories are written by the victors. That's really interesting. I just looking at history,
link |
you wonder what's missing. I'll tell you what's missing that I know for a fact. Because my dad
link |
told, my dad told me combats hell, and he would tell me the reality of what it's really like
link |
guys pissing themselves, calling for their mother, the fog of war, obviously. Fracture
link |
side happens all the time. It's pandemonium. I mean, there's skill involved. But I mean,
link |
there's no like, it's a lot of it is just luck. My dad said he my dad won three.
link |
He got, you know, metals, purple hearts, all that shit. And he said the reason was
link |
is because he can't he always said this is another thing he told me you can't pin a metal on a dead
link |
guy. So it's like, those are the guys who deserve it. But you can't pin a metal, you can't do the
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pomp and sit with. And I'll tell you one thing is that it is written by the victors. And all
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these leaders, they say we're in the front, we're not in the front. We're not. Whenever the history
link |
books say he led his troops into battle, it's like, did he really? Did he? So then how did he live?
link |
Because they put like kids in the front, you know, it's like, nobody limps back from the front
link |
with like a injury, you know, that's, that's army PR. You know, whenever you read, you know,
link |
27 soldiers died, 14 were injured. The word injured is PR. That's like injured. Was he,
link |
did he sprain his ankle? Did he need, did he get carried off the court or, you know, he was maimed?
link |
I mean, he was like, his leg was blown off, you know, it's like, so I think that, you know,
link |
Alexander the Great was just kind of in the back on his horse and just kind of, he had his eunuch
link |
blown a few times and he was like, is it bad up there? And then like after that, he was like,
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okay, my scribe, give me my scribe. Okay, when you write this down, can you put me in the front?
link |
Yeah. And I was just, make me a big hero. And I was in there. And then he, you know, he just
link |
blew his, you know, he had sex with his eunuch and rode off into the sunset,
link |
because there's just no way you survive in the front, especially warfare back then. I mean,
link |
it's like brutal. Then again, you have like, Jengus Khan, the sense I got that he was a little bit
link |
up on the front, at least at first. Yeah. Or is that also, is he a little bit outside?
link |
Give me my scribe. Yeah, it's all lore. I mean, you ever play the game of telephone?
link |
You know, it's like, you know, there's no video cameras back then. So shit just get,
link |
turns into myth, you know? And there's no way he was in the front. There's no way he wouldn't have
link |
lived. You know, he was probably good on horseback because those, those dudes were good on horseback.
link |
But it was like Game of Thrones back then, you had all these different people and they kind of,
link |
yeah, the, the, the Mongols were wild, dude. They are actually said like, they started like,
link |
they were more adaptable to the horse because they were so good on horseback that kids started
link |
to be born like kind of bow legged, like to fit the horse. It's wild. And they would stretch their
link |
heads and shit like that. They'd wrap them and stretch their heads. So they find like Mongol
link |
skulls and they look like cone heads and they were brutal and vicious. And they would maraud and
link |
rape and all the fun stuff that, you know, when, you know, when you visit other places back then,
link |
there's no Chachiki stops and souvenir shops. What you do is you take women and those are the
link |
tokens, you know, you burn a few huts different. Tourism was different back then.
link |
Yeah. That's another difficult thing. Just we're talking about nature and predators to think about
link |
the long stretch of history where we're just murder. Yeah. And we made so much progress,
link |
I guess, in the past couple of centuries. The United States is a shiny example of that.
link |
But do you think also that it's that effect that we were,
link |
a lot of good things had to happen too? Or else we wouldn't be here. So do we just focus?
link |
Isn't it like a car crash effect that like we're, you know, the rubber neck of everyone pulls over
link |
to see a car crash? Are we just only focusing on the negative things of history because they're
link |
just more exciting to us? Like it's just not boring to be like, yeah, and then there was a bunch of
link |
villagers and they ate every day and danced and loved. Yeah. I wonder, I wonder how different
link |
those people were, you know, like they might have had the same exact loves and fears and
link |
like they perhaps had the same kind of brilliant ideas in their head, if not more brilliant.
link |
And we kind of think about like this moment in history is like the most special moment.
link |
Like we're doing the coolest shit that we're doing the most amazing building and most amazing
link |
things. But maybe they were building amazing things in their different way with like less
link |
technological, but in the space of ideas, in the space of just all the different, the camaraderie,
link |
in the space of like concepts, mathematics, all those kinds of things. Yeah. I mean,
link |
Greece, you look at the architecture, it still stands up. I mean, all the government play,
link |
it's still arguably, I mean, as far as objective beauty, it's hard to argue that Greco Roman,
link |
it's just something about it with the columns. It's just, it's powerful. It's,
link |
I don't know, even Ayn Rand would probably appreciate it. She doesn't know. No. No.
link |
No. So in your history, Hyena's that unfortunately has come to an end before we're talking about
link |
empires coming to an end, all empires fall. Yeah. That one, you may rise again,
link |
empires might rise again. Who knows? Who knows? I'm obviously a fan, so I hope it does rise again.
link |
But you've seemed to develop your own language. Can you, it's what it is. What is that?
link |
What the hell? Is this some kind of medical condition or can you explain like the linguistic
link |
essentials that catch us up to the linguistic essentials that people need to know to understand
link |
the way you speak? Yeah. You know, Leopold and Loeb, the story of those two, they murdered that
link |
kid and they had this weird relationship. Anyway, it's an interesting thing to Google.
link |
Leopold and Loeb, these two guys who ended up murdering a kid because they developed their
link |
own language with each other and this own reality and this weird thing and they wanted to know what
link |
it's like to murder a kid and they murdered a kid. It's a famous story in American lore and history,
link |
whatever, famous case. But this phenomenon, yeah, me and Chris got together. It wasn't as dark as
link |
Leopold and Loeb. We didn't murder a kid, but we murdered a podcast. Or at least stab it a few times.
link |
Yeah. It was something in the organic chemistry of me and Chris that I think we'll both
link |
end up appreciating even probably more than we do now that it's mysterious. I got to be honest
link |
with you. It was a thing that wasn't conscious, wasn't intentional. It was something that happened
link |
in the music of our energies that just went. It's fascinating. Like when you hear someone
link |
sing or when a jazz band hits a rhythm or even when I'm on stage and I just catch a rhythm,
link |
it's like, dude, I didn't make a choice there. I don't know what that is. I don't know how to
link |
explain it, but it comes from somewhere else and I don't know what it is. It's beyond my
link |
comprehension, but with Chris, there was this magical chemistry that I have chemistry with a
link |
lot of people and it can be funny. I feel zero chemistry here. This is great. It's a little
link |
bit more intelligent than when me and Chris did. Me and Chris, I think we connected on the funny
link |
bone. I found him so funny and we found the same things funny. From that, these organic
link |
expressions came from some part of our brains that was created from this chemistry. We developed
link |
this language and this cult following and people were really upset when we ended, but it was the
link |
right thing to end because like all things that ended, it was kind of done a few episodes even
link |
before we finished. I think we pulled the plug before it started rolling downhill. All great
link |
flings. There's your long relationship, long marriages are boring and comfortable. The one
link |
you really like fucking always ends abruptly and sadly, but you always look back and you jerk off
link |
to it. So you guys made love? Yeah. It was like a hot fling with me and him and it was intense
link |
and we burned the candle at both ends. I think that podcast was meant to be three years and
link |
maybe people will go back and appreciate it and listen to it over and over again.
link |
And I think the new things we do, people will love. I'm doing long days now of that podcast and
link |
people seem to enjoy it. I've been really enjoying the long days on YouTube. I just found myself
link |
just like staring at you ranting for the same with Tim Dillon. I really enjoyed whatever those
link |
rants are, the genius of just one thing after the other, but definitely the chemistry almost
link |
is a study. I remember the reason I first started listening to it, I was trying to get
link |
a perspective on certain historical moments. It was interesting. I tuned in to learn history.
link |
Yeah, I came for the history and stayed for the chaos.
link |
Stayed for the crack open and clean out.
link |
And yeah, it was almost, I listened to Rogan like this sometimes. I'll re listen to an episode
link |
to try to understand why was this so fun to listen to? It's almost like trying to analyze
link |
humor or something like that, but it's nice from a conversational perspective. Why was this so easy
link |
to listen to? And with history, Hain is like, why is the chemistry so good? It's so, it's weird.
link |
It's weird because there's not many podcasts. I don't know any with chemistry like that.
link |
It's interesting. And it's kind of sad that the fling with the prostitute in Vegas has to end.
link |
But that's what makes it special. It's the Bukowski thing with the fog.
link |
The British office, one of my favorite shows was that it ended very quickly. It's only a couple
link |
seasons or something like that. And that was tragic, but that took guts to just end it.
link |
Given all the money you could have made, given all the, you just end it. And that's what makes it
link |
like truly special. Yeah. And I'll tell you, man, I'll just emphasize it because I marvel at it too.
link |
Because as a guy who tries to always figure out what the causes of things, I gotta be honest,
link |
man, looking back on that, even with retrospective wisdom, you know, that 2020 hindsight, we've
link |
been done a couple months now, it's something that I can't explain. It's something that I don't know
link |
how you quantify it. I don't know how you describe it. It's musical. It's really kind of rhythmic.
link |
So maybe, maybe like a Netflix show about history. That's, that's in the, that's in the future.
link |
That with the two of you, you guys will meet like, with that, the way you meet with a fling,
link |
like a decade from now, a diner, and you're both way fatter and uglier. And then you just reminisce
link |
over some cigarettes and coffee. It could be. Yeah, it could be. Yeah. But it's definitely a
link |
classic podcast that people can go back and appreciate. It's fast paced and it was unique.
link |
What was it like to research for, I mean, it was really scholarly, the depth of research that you
link |
performed. It sometimes felt like you almost read an entire Wikipedia article beforehand.
link |
That's exactly true. We were, we were one fan. We attracted such funny people to that podcast,
link |
and the fans were so funny. And one fan called us nicknamed as Wikipedia Sluts. And so it just
link |
stuck. Yeah, we just would read Wikipedia. I would do a lot more research than Chris. Yeah.
link |
And so I would actually, you know, once in a while, he'd get into it too. But for very interesting
link |
episodes, I got some, some, some subject matter would just pull me in, like Bernie Madoff,
link |
just to think of one that was recent. It was one of our last ones. And I think one of our better
link |
episodes. And I'm glad that it kind of ended after that because it was rare to, I think we
link |
started to slip a little bit. I got fascinated and I got, I did a lot of research for Bernie Madoff.
link |
But usually, yeah, we pull up Wikipedia and we'd have fun. We were sort of the antithesis of
link |
Dan Carlin. I mean, you went to Dan Carlin for accuracy and thoughtfulness. And you went to
link |
us for, it was a hang with history. That's why History Hyenas was such an appropriate name,
link |
because it was, it was a little bit of history. Some episodes were more hyena, more wild,
link |
and a little history. And some were a little more dense, like the Battle of Crete and less
link |
hyena. So you were always going to get both. You're either going to get a majority or one
link |
or the other. Yeah. And Dan Carlin is the lion, I guess. And you guys are predictably good.
link |
I mean, what are your thoughts about, I mean, he's a storyteller too. He gets a lot of criticism
link |
for the, from the historians, quote unquote. That's why he likes to not, he keeps saying he's
link |
not a historian. But what's your, what are your thoughts about hardcore history with Dan Carlin?
link |
Like, was he an inspiration to the podcast you were doing? Or, or like an account, like almost
link |
like reverse psychology inspiration, where you wanted to do some kind of opposing type of podcast
link |
in history. Or was history, always just like a, a launching pad to just talk shit about human
link |
nature? More of the latter. I wasn't even aware of his podcast when we started. Oh, interesting.
link |
Yeah. And so we, it was just very organic. Again, like the chemistry, me and Chris became
link |
very good friends. We started the podcast. First, we did a web series called Bay Ridge Boys,
link |
which has a sort of little cult following. We did like five episodes and ended it.
link |
And then we did the podcast. And Hyena's were my favorite animal. And I talk about them passionately.
link |
And I told Chris about them. And then he started appreciating them. And we both love history.
link |
I majored in history. It's one of the things I love. I go to museums all the time. I go to his,
link |
I do history tours. So does he. And so it was just sort of a natural, let's do a history podcast.
link |
And it gave us something to talk about each episode to sort of lean our, you know, hang our hats on
link |
and riff off of. So it had nothing to do with dance. What I think about dance, I think it's great.
link |
I think even if he's inaccurate in the opinions of the historical community, it starts conversations,
link |
which is good. It's like this thing where people go, oh, it's dangerous rhetoric. It's like, no,
link |
rhetoric only becomes dangerous when education fails. What's going on in America is education has
link |
failed. So if you call someone online dangerous, it's not him that's dangerous. It's the fucking
link |
stupid people that's dangerous. And it's the fault of this country. We didn't listen to Aristotle.
link |
The future of a civilization depends on public education. And we failed. Education has failed.
link |
Kids are kids are not interested in shit. And so in some sense, those like Dan's podcast and
link |
podcasts can be incredibly educational. That's he's a, the storytelling that pulls you in
link |
ultimately leads to you internalizing these stories and like remembering them and thinking
link |
through them and all those kinds of things that is much more powerful than any book on history
link |
that's accurate. I think often it inspires you to go learn more. So it's like, I know we did that.
link |
I mean, you know, people would go, I went and learned about this because they knew with us
link |
there was no pretense, which was great that we had no standard. So it's like nobody came to us
link |
for historical accuracy. But I was kind of turned on by the fact that it inspired people to go learn
link |
about this stuff or to at least know like Battle of Crete, like you said, a very underappreciated
link |
battle. Even Winston Churchill said, from here on, we will no longer say that Greeks fight like
link |
heroes, but heroes fight like Greeks. I mean, it was a monumental battle and, you know, not
link |
talked about enough. And our podcast would inspire people to go actually learn more,
link |
to go listen to Dan Carlin or to go pick up a book or to do research on their own. And so
link |
I think podcasts, Dan Carlin's obviously much more accurate than us, but it's good that people are
link |
going to podcasts like yours and to learn shit. Joe is really like the progenitor of that. I mean,
link |
you know, having intellectuals on and getting the public interested with this new medium
link |
in people who are intelligent. It's nice because, you know, what the mainstream press pushes out
link |
is horseshit, gorgeous horseshit. It's got a beautiful veneer, but no substance. And so this,
link |
this is a nice pushback. Yeah, the authenticity of Joe's show. I mean, I'm through, I started
link |
listening from the very beginning, you know, doing my in grad school, you know, like a technical
link |
person. And he just pulled me in and made me curious to learn about all kinds of things
link |
and use my own critical reasoning skills on some of the bullshit guests he's had and some of the
link |
most inspiring guests he's had. And so I teach you to think, can you, I don't know much about
link |
Bernie Madoff as a small tangent. Can you tell me who the hell is Bernie Madoff? Oh, Bernie Madoff
link |
is the goat, the greatest thief of all time, dude. Hedge fund guy, ran a hedge fund and
link |
pulled, stole the most money in the history of America. I mean, a con artist. And he does,
link |
people obviously, he's become, he's a household name because of the magnitude of his crime.
link |
But you got to appreciate, again, you got to appreciate what went into this and how long
link |
he was able to pull it off by tricking the smartest and richest people in the world.
link |
And a brilliant scam. The con man, a con man is short for confidence man. And it came from,
link |
yeah, a con man, basically they exude confidence and they trick people by playing on their ego and
link |
blind spots. And the word comes from a guy I can't remember where, but what do you, what do you
link |
used to do? I can't remember the guy's name, whatever, you can Google it, con man. But it's
link |
very interesting. The first con man that is on record, what do we do? We just go to very rich
link |
people and he'd be very well dressed, right? And he'd go, I bet you, you don't have the confidence
link |
to give me your watch. And he would plan the egos, these very powerful and rich people,
link |
and they would give them the watch for some reason, some sort of reverse psychology bullshit.
link |
And he'd take the watch and he would just steal it. Because basically saying like, I don't,
link |
you don't have the compass to give me the watch because you don't, I don't know, you don't think
link |
I'm going to give it back. And he would just take it. So Bernie Madoff was a very sophisticated
link |
sophisticated con man. And again, we were talking about people pretending to be the opposite of
link |
what they are. Bernie hid his fevery in how available he was to his clients, how he would
link |
show up at every bar mitzvah, every birthday. He was always available for their phone calls.
link |
And he played on their egos. He made it so people were wanted to invest in him. Like they were
link |
competing. He made it very exclusive. He wouldn't just take anyone. And there was a method behind
link |
that madness because he wanted the whales that wouldn't notice that he was, he had this pyramid
link |
scheme going. And so what he would do is he would just rob from the richer and he just kept,
link |
it was like, he'd pay back the richer with the guy who was a little, and it was a pyramid scheme.
link |
And he was able to do it for so long and steal so much money. And he would win people over with
link |
the scheme because with that scheme, he was the only guy who could provide, who could guarantee
link |
like a 1% return even during times of recession. And because he was such a good con man, he hijacked
link |
people's reasoning with his charm. And that's what con artists do. That's what psychopaths do.
link |
They're so fucking charming. They get you in that Volkswagen Beetle because if they use their
link |
reasoning for one second, they'd go, Hey, nobody can provide 1% returns during recessions. How the
link |
fuck is this guy doing it? I'll tell you how he's doing it. He's stealing from another guy to pay
link |
you. You fucking idiot. So charisma is essential to that. Maybe you can help explain something
link |
to me, something I have been affected by. I'm getting way too loud for your listeners.
link |
It's just going to be calm. It's like, tell this guy to calm down. I'm sorry. I'm Greek
link |
apostate. No, it is beautiful. I love it. This is something that I have been thinking about
link |
and have encountered indirectly is Jeffrey Epstein. And I have a sense because of MIT,
link |
because of all the other people that have been touched the wrong term by Jeffrey Epstein in the
link |
sense that literally and figuratively. And it's always felt to me like there's not a deep
link |
conspiracy. I don't know. I don't know, but it felt to me like it's not some deeply rooted
link |
conspiracy where like Eric Weinstein thinks that there's some probability that Jeffrey Epstein is
link |
a front for like an intelligence agency, whether it's Israeli or the CIA, I don't know, but is a
link |
front for something much, much bigger. And then I always thought that he's just maybe you can correct
link |
me, but more of the Bernie Madoff variety where he's just a charismatic guy who maybe a psychopathic
link |
in some sense. So, you know, also a pedophile, but just charismatic and is able to convince people
link |
of that 1% of any idea that in the case of scientists is able to convince these people that
link |
their ideas matter. So, one thing scientists don't really, you know, despite what people say, I don't
link |
think they care about money as much as people think. People are ridiculous when they think that,
link |
yeah, that's why people get into science for the money. The personalities that get into science are
link |
obsessed with minutiae and they do the scientific method. You know how boring that is? Like you
link |
have to have a love for it in order to do it. Love and truth. What drives you is for your ideas to
link |
be then heard. And when a rich guy comes over, probably super charismatic, is going to tell you
link |
that your ideas, especially for some of these outsiders at MIT, at Harvard, at Caltech, at all
link |
these like sort of big science, like physics, biology, artificial intelligence, computing fields,
link |
to hear somebody say that your ideas are brilliant and ideas matter, it's pretty powerful,
link |
especially when you've been an outsider. Like he's talked to a bunch of people who were,
link |
who had outsider ideas. You know, the big negative for me of modern academia is that
link |
most people, actually like most communities, most people think the same and there's just
link |
these brilliant outsiders and the outsiders are just derided. And so, when you have
link |
Jeffrey Epstein, like Hyena, sorry, sorry, sorry, going from on the outside and picking off these
link |
brilliant minds that are the outsiders, he can use charisma to convince them to
link |
collaborate with him, to take his funding and then thereby he builds a reputation,
link |
like slowly accumulates these people that actually results in a network of like some of
link |
those brilliant people in the world, you know, and then pulls in people like Bill Gates and,
link |
I don't know, political figures. I tend to believe one person can do that.
link |
Yeah. I mean, look at Hitler, charisma is blinding. I think that's what Conman,
link |
speaking of Bernie Madoff, that's one of their major tools is flattery, just glib, superficial
link |
charm. It creates those blind spots. People want to hear how great they are. They want to be
link |
flattered. It takes your defenses down. It plays to our ego how much we're all just pieces of
link |
garbage and want to hear how great we are. We want that love from our mother and our father.
link |
It's Freudian and they know because they're not burdened with that need, they're not burdened with
link |
that empathy or emotions and they just see things very calculatively. They play, they know that
link |
we're prey in their game and they use that against us and that is why someone who is not that intelligent
link |
like Hitler can probably convince a lot more intelligent people, you know, and that's why
link |
we can't give him dill in power because, you know, he already stands on a stage. I mean,
link |
if we let that guy, I mean, he will just take over a country and everyone who can't cook well
link |
will be eliminated. Yeah. So it's like, I wonder why he keeps complimenting me while we're in
link |
private. Exactly. Be careful. He looks at me just, you're, I like your suit. I like the cut of your
link |
jib. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, you gotta be careful of that kid. He's Hitler. But it's crazy to think
link |
about that. Clip that, please, internet. I mean, Quentin Tarantino said it to Ben. I mean, in his
link |
grip, personality goes a long way, dude. Yeah. I mean, personality can usurp common sense and
link |
reason of the smartest people. These absolute smartest people can be hypnotized. It's sort of
link |
like a sexy woman. It's like, you can just, it just, you can be tricked because we have such a
link |
blind spot for, you know, for, for flattery. Yeah, I wonder, I think there's a BBC documentary on,
link |
I think it's called something like Charisma, Hitler's Charisma or something like that.
link |
There's quite, I mean, that one focused more about the power of the speeches. But I wonder if
link |
most of the success or the rise of Hitler and the Third Reich had to do with the Charisma of
link |
Hitler when he's alone in a room with somebody, with the generals, just one on one. Like, I wonder,
link |
I wonder if that's the essential element of just being able to just look into a person's eyes,
link |
like flatter them or whatever is needed to earn their trust and then convince them of anything
link |
you want. Right. Yeah. I mean, you're right. Cause that's, that's the one piece of history we don't
link |
have. We don't know. We don't know. We do know that the kid crushed. I mean, he was a headliner.
link |
He got up there and his, his hair would flopper. I mean, he crushed it. Yeah. There's certain
link |
elements about nationalism and pride that are really powerful. Like a lot of us humans, I think,
link |
long for that, for the feeling of belonging. And when some charismatic leader makes us feel
link |
like we belong to a group, the, uh, the amount of evil we can do to other humans because of that
link |
is endless scapegoat. Nobody wants to look in. Nobody wants to do the work to be better or look
link |
at where they messed up. Why does it always have to be the Jews that are the scapegoats?
link |
You know, it's like, get over it guys. I mean, it's like they killed Jesus. You get over it.
link |
Yeah. Okay. It's a long time ago. I mean, move on. I'm Jewish. I understand because we do run
link |
the central banks and the weather and the weather. Yeah. Don't forget about the weather. That's a
link |
big one. That's a funny one that people created. Like, who gives a shit? Well, what is the weather?
link |
Like, what's the importance of the weather? All right. The Jews made a rain outside. Good,
link |
you got a fucking, you know, they made it snow. Okay. You get a day off. Thank the Jews. Yeah.
link |
It's like, yeah, there's certain conspiracies that make me like flat earth. Like what, what's the
link |
motive? Like what, who, what's the motivation for lying that the earth is round? Like, what's the
link |
conspiracy? Yeah. What does anyone get out of that? Yeah. What is exactly the profit? What's,
link |
what's the, yeah, what's the strategy? Do you have any, from a historical perspective,
link |
or just a human perspective conspiracy theories you connect with, or you're not necessarily
link |
conspiratorial? I'm, I'm not necessarily conspiratorial. Nobody cares that much. But there,
link |
but then you, you know, what happens is you find out this one or this two.
link |
You start questioning everything. And you start questioning everything, man. It's like,
link |
you know, the Vietnam war started, that was a lie. That was a false flag. And then next thing,
link |
you know, everything's a false flag. There are some strange things on 9 11. You know, there's
link |
some strange things from a scientific perspective. I'm no scientist, but it's like, you know, yeah,
link |
three steel framed skyscrapers falling on the same day in the same way. A lot of people
link |
say, oh, it was the, they were hit by planes. It's like, yeah, but that's not where they fell.
link |
They fell because of fires and usually, not usually, all the time, except for three times.
link |
And there was buildings that have burned for longer than that.
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And there might be good explanations, but the lack of transparency, it's like, I feel like
link |
government, I'm building sevens weird. I mean, the way I kind of, I'm just a neat, just a neat
link |
the physical, I mean, you're a scientist. Is that, well, I don't, I, is there resistance from the
link |
steel? And so no, free fall, not all scientists know everything. I'm just a computer guy.
link |
Okay. Cause I had some questions I wanted to ask about my biology.
link |
Yeah. So exactly. I don't understand biology. I don't understand the melting point of steel. I
link |
don't, but I'm just a common sense human that looks at government and institutions when they try
link |
to communicate. And there's a certain human element where you can sense that there's dishonesty
link |
going on. That dishonesty might not be deeply rooted in a conspiracy theory and something
link |
malevolent. It might just be rooted more likely to me in a basic fear of losing your job.
link |
And so when you have a bunch of people that are afraid of losing their job, you know, and they
link |
just don't want to, like the origins of the virus, whether it came from a lab or not, you know,
link |
that's a pretty, I know a lot of biologists behind a closed doors that, that say it's very likely
link |
it was leaked from the lab, but like they don't want to talk about it because there's not good
link |
evidence either way. It's mostly you're just using common sense. So they're waiting for good evidence
link |
to come out in either direction, but just like nobody in positions of institutional like centralized
link |
power wants to just honestly say, we don't know, or on the point of masks or all those kinds of
link |
things to say, you know, here's the best evidence we have. We're not sure we're trying to figure
link |
that. We're desperately trying to figure that out or just like honesty, especially in the modern
link |
day. That's the hope I have for the 21st centuries. People seem to detect bullshit much, much better
link |
because the internet internet. Yeah. Yeah. And we, we also believe crazy shit too. There's no
link |
yin without a yang, I guess. But I think the conspiracy theories arise only when the people
link |
in positions of power and government and institutions are full of shit. Like the air
link |
will be taken out of the conspiracy theories. If the people in elected power would be much
link |
more honest, like just like real people like Andrew Yang, whatever you think about him,
link |
just more honest. He, he just like says whatever the hell comes to mind. By the way,
link |
he's running for New York mayor. Do you have opinions? Yeah, it's no good. I like Andrew
link |
Yang and it's no good. I'd be honest with you. I'm a lifelong New Yorker. I mean, I'm a New Yorker.
link |
Well, you're in New York, so nothing's good. Well, something is good. Okay. And talking on,
link |
let's be honest about New York. It's a very socially liberal place. It is the head of the snake.
link |
New York is the country. If New York, when New York's not doing good, country's not doing good.
link |
It's the most important city, DC, New York. It's really Rome, be honest. It's, it's a, maybe I'm
link |
biased. I don't know. No. We just did New York as we walk around everywhere and we go, this is
link |
just like New York, but not New York. It's, um, but and New York needs, and I'm a guy who leans
link |
left. I, you know, I just, I'd lean left and that's just what it is. A dictator. Is that where
link |
you're going? No, we need, we need, it's a money town. Let's be, come on, man. I mean, New York
link |
is a money town and, uh, Wall Street. And then when AOC and her cronies, um, at the local level
link |
rejected that Amazon thing, you're going like, what do you think makes cities? What, what, what's
link |
going to create jobs in the 21st century? What do we need? More nail salons, more pizza places?
link |
I mean, we're living in the tech revolution and, you know, whatever your opinions are about Jeff
link |
Bezos, that's the world tech. And they want you to come here. Of course you give them tax breaks.
link |
That's why any companies go anywhere. She's so fucking utopian and that, that progressive wing
link |
is so utopian and that always ends in disaster because not rooted in reality. It doesn't accept
link |
the reality that people are self interested. Now they're going to do this 14%, 15% tax hike
link |
on people making a million dollars more in New York city. A million dollars is not that much.
link |
So people are going to flee New York. The tax base is going to flee. New York's going to fall to
link |
shit like it did before. So you're saying it basically needs a more capitalist front, like
link |
capitalistic type of thing here. Bloomberg, Giuliani, when he was still saying,
link |
and his hair wasn't melting off his face, prosecutor, you need a tough, I mean,
link |
I don't know what's happened to that guy's lost it, but it's fun. Yeah, it's fun to watch. Yeah,
link |
it's fun to watch him be just like Trump's lacking. Like, yeah, boy, whatever you want,
link |
boss, I'll just say whatever you want, boss. But New York is a money town that needs a money guy
link |
and sort of more of a Republican. I have to say on the local level, as more of a guy who leans
link |
left, I'll just be honest, it's a tough city that needs a tough mayor, not some guy who's
link |
going like, I understand we all need free money. Andrew Yang, I think, is right in the big picture
link |
because all the real jobs are somewhere else. You look at those Asian cities, you go like,
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oh, that's what our cities used to look like at the Industrial Revolution. There was jobs and
link |
people were making things here. And now you look at those cities in Asia and you're going like,
link |
wow. And then you go to Detroit and you're like, yeah, we're done. You go to Cleveland,
link |
you go, we're done. So I don't actually, it's funny. The reason I really like Andrew Yang is
link |
I've learned a lot every time he talks. Like, it's not his opinions. He's just giving a lot of data,
link |
like information, which I just start a podcast, don't run from there. That's true. He already has
link |
a podcast. I think Yang speaks. Who does it? Who does it? That's the way we communicate. I don't
link |
even talk to people unless it's on a podcast. Listen, man, I'm not going to criticize that
link |
because there is something like I talked to my dad on a podcast for four hours. And I'm not sure
link |
I would, I would ever talk to him in the way we talked without the podcast. What does he do?
link |
Physicist. Oh, shit. But like, yeah, it's episode 100. And, you know,
link |
I, the way I recorded that podcast is I tried to put my ego aside. It's actually really tough to
link |
talk to your dad, especially because you're giving him a platform. Especially at that time,
link |
there's already a bit of a platform for this podcast. And so there's this, as a son, you think,
link |
like, oh, here it goes with this bullshit again. Like that's the natural son thought you have.
link |
But at the same time, I wanted to, the way I thought about it is in 20 years when I look back,
link |
like I want to do a conversation where I'm happy with it. You know, so I want to make him shine.
link |
But I also called him out on like, why are you so distant? Like, like all that kind of stuff.
link |
Yeah, it was very difficult to do, but it was really important to do. And I don't think I'd be
link |
able to do without a, without a microphone. Right. Listen, how often do we sit there and just focus
link |
our attention, just look at the other person? I don't know, man, this is not even recording right
link |
now. I just invited you over. Just so we could actually, you're right. The podcast does make,
link |
like I listened, I've been listening to every word you've been saying. And if we weren't doing a
link |
podcast, I might be looking at my phone or being self conscious about something else or nervous
link |
or anxious. Especially with people close to you. I mean, that was, I recommend that actually for
link |
people to talk to their family on a podcast or like a fake or not. That's really powerful.
link |
It made me realize that there's a clear distinction between the conversations we
link |
usually have with humans and those we have on the podcast as being recorded.
link |
What the fuck were we talking about before that?
link |
I knew you were going to lose your train of thought on that one because that's a big one.
link |
There's a motion behind that one. The podcast with dad is going to take,
link |
that's going to take you to a place. It took you to a place. It took you outside of interviewer.
link |
New York. It went to a place in New York and Yang. So the data, one of the things that really
link |
surprised me about, I like the psycho analysis you just threw in there.
link |
Yeah, that took you to a place. So Angie Yang mentioned,
link |
Can you respect me now, dad? MIT, is it enough? Fuck a million people listening to this?
link |
I got 14 Rogans. Is it enough, dad? I'm creating robots. Is it enough for you?
link |
Yeah. That's what drives you probably. That probably what drives me.
link |
That's what gives meaning to life is it's never enough.
link |
And I hope to pass that on to my kids one day that nothing's ever enough.
link |
Whether they're robot or human, right? Your kids.
link |
Most likely. Let's be honest. Robot. You might call one of your robot. Do you love your robot?
link |
Are you starting to love your, is it going to be like that Pygmalion thing? You create them and
link |
then they kill you. But even while they're killing you, you got a tear roll.
link |
The tear, a slow one tear, one tear and just. Yeah. Why are you doing this Frankenstein?
link |
Why? Why? But I loved you. Those would be the last words out of my mouth.
link |
But Angie Yang mentioned something on the, that it costs a $400,000 over $400,000 per year to
link |
support one person in prison in New York. Like when I heard that number, it was really confusing to
link |
me. Like that it costs that much for $400,000 per person. And it was really refreshing to hear a
link |
politician describe a particular problem with data, that this is this prison industrial complex,
link |
whatever the hell it is. And whether the solution, it's unclear what the solution is.
link |
I think he has solutions, but just the honesty of presenting that information was refreshing.
link |
And I'm not sure a capitalistic person would solve that. Those kinds of problems he might
link |
make worse. And I'm not, you know, I'm a huge fan of capitalism. I think,
link |
I think the free market is the way we make progress in this world. But
link |
it seems to go wrong in certain directions, like the military industrial complex, the prison
link |
industrial, anything that ends with industrial complex. And so I'm not sure. I'm not sure if
link |
all of the problems, you're basically saying, let's put New York's problems aside.
link |
We need to have New York shine first to do what it does best.
link |
Essentially, yeah.
link |
And then the problems will fix them. Well, and then we can focus on the problems. But if you
link |
just say like, here's a problem, here's a problem, here's a problem, let's make sure we have the
link |
safety net that protects against all of these kinds of problems. That's not going to,
link |
that's going to kill the city, the spirit of the city that is in your biased opinion,
link |
the Rome of the world. That said, a lot of people are fleeing New York.
link |
Yeah, that's why I say it. That's the reality of the situation is, you know,
link |
I'm all for the public good. But yeah, there needs to be back to that Greek expression,
link |
pan metronarist. And I also think the free market is responsible for progress.
link |
I think it's the most natural thing, the thing that's most aligned with human nature,
link |
which is self interest, and which I believe not to the extent that I in Randwood, but I do believe
link |
people are mostly self interested, especially with one gun to the head. Morals are out the window,
link |
you know, it's about survival. So, you know, create a system that respects that and acknowledges that.
link |
But socialism works very well, at least right now, as a check as to temper the excesses of
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capitalism and in certain scenarios, is the more appropriate system, you know, in a vacuum. So one
link |
being prisons or, you know, governance, you know, maybe even, well, and this is a difficult one,
link |
but in healthcare, healthcare, it's unclear what to write. There's a lot of the base there.
link |
Yeah, doctors want boats. So I guess you're voting for AOC, you're saying.
link |
No, I'm not voting for AOC, but I do. It's just a tough one. That's a tough one. But
link |
ultimately, the Hippocratic oath, it's like, how do you turn people away, man? How do you do that
link |
to people? It's like, it's a tough thing to reconcile helping people, curing people with
link |
the marketplace. It's just, I can understand why that one's so tough. And then you got
link |
hypochondriacs, of course, who drain the system, you know, like people who are having anxiety like
link |
me, who had COVID and called 14, you know, I called 14 ambulances. So, and then, of course,
link |
we're fat and the free market made us fat because it played the marketing made us want all this
link |
junk food and that's a burden on the healthcare system. So we got to do something about that.
link |
We got to get creative. We need new thinkers. I'll be one of them. When you go to a fast food
link |
restaurant, you stand on a scale. If you're over a certain thing, you can't be served.
link |
It's good for the healthcare system. You know, you just handed a salad and say, sorry,
link |
this burger's illegal for right now. If you achieve these certain BMI goals, then you can have this
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burger, but right now you can. And that's where the state's important. Okay, to regulate our freedoms.
link |
No slurpees up with you, Bloomberg. Well, I'm with you to go along. I think the salads are too
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expensive. They should be subsidized. If you go to like a fast food joint, the burger is always
link |
going to be cheaper than the salad. And this does not make sense. We should run on this platform.
link |
I'll be your vice president. Well, ban burgers for people over a certain way and make salads cheap.
link |
Three day work weeks. Why has that been happening? Okay, where are you going with this one?
link |
Dude, good for the economy stimulates the economy, right? More shifts creates more jobs,
link |
more people spending because they have more leisure time boosts the leisure economy.
link |
Why are we still doing the five day work week that that was that was tempered from the seven
link |
day work week. That was so the seven, it used to be seven day work. It used to be like,
link |
people who are just these libertarians, like, come on, dude, what is this fresh? Are we freshmen
link |
in college? Yeah, you get it. We're going to talk about iron ran next. Like, let's talk about
link |
reality. Okay. And human nature. People are fucking greedy. They lie. You know, there's no end to up,
link |
which is one of my favorite expressions. No end to up. No end to up. There's no end to up.
link |
But can we dissect that? Yeah, from a Randian perspective, there's no end to up, which is
link |
you just keep going. It's never enough. Oh, never enough. It's never enough. No end to up. More,
link |
more, more. And, you know, you have to reconcile, you're going to die. So like, there's no end
link |
to up thing is that balance is just as valuable as progress. So we have to reconcile those two
link |
things and put them on a seesaw and figure out how to get two people who have the equal weight
link |
to keep it like that. And that's the goal. And it constantly vacillates according to the time.
link |
You sometimes you need a little more socialism, sometimes you need a little more capitalism.
link |
You got to, you got to, you got to fly the plane, man. You got to fly the plane, dude.
link |
What's your looking back at history? Is there a moment time period in history, a person in history
link |
that's most fascinating to you? You mentioned birdie made up. Maybe second to birdie made up.
link |
Is there in a battle of Crete? Is there something that you've always been curious about, even if
link |
it's something you haven't actually researched that well yet, just something that pulled your
link |
curiosity that instructed the way you think about the world. An individual or an event or
link |
event, individual, you know, yeah, moment in history or person in history.
link |
There's a few, but, you know, Queen Elizabeth, the Elizabethan era, you know, the sun never
link |
sets in the British Empire, very successful empire. What an absolute success story that is
link |
for a leader and a woman. Can you tell a little bit about her story? I actually don't know much
link |
about the British Empire. Yeah, she had a good run. I think it's like 70 years, you know, as a
link |
Shakespeare, they, you know, the, oh, I guess what's the word, Pax Romana, the, the, the period of
link |
Rome that was that peace and they flourished like a couple of error emperors like Trajan or
link |
some good ones. And I think he was part of the Pax Romana that sort of just a peace and a comfortable
link |
flourishing time. And England had sort of that in their empire under her successful reign. She
link |
murdered her cousin. She, you know, the movies, there's, you know, Kate Blanchett plays her and,
link |
and does so. And she didn't win the Oscar because fucking Gwyneth Paltrow put a, put a British accent
link |
on in Shakespeare in love. It's a tragedy. Why do I know this? Because I'm not a full man. I'm a
link |
comedian, which means I do skits that I perform. And I, Kate Blanchett's incredible actress,
link |
great movies. She was just so, and here's the thing, she, she never got married. She was, she was so
link |
astute at public relations. And, and, and, and imagine how strong you got to be as a woman to
link |
lead the greatest empire, maybe known to man at the time, and to do so, so successfully, how
link |
Machiavellian you have to be, how idealist you have to be, how much of a good marketer you
link |
have to be, propaganda machine was on point. She was married to England. She was adored the way
link |
she adorned herself. You walked in, you're like, holy men, God just walked in here. And of course,
link |
she got fucked. I mean, who doesn't fuck? We all fuck. Even robots one day will fuck. But she was,
link |
she, she did that propaganda thing. And historians aren't, haven't, they haven't decided this,
link |
but I believe she fucked. And I believe she did that as a tool of propaganda, a marry to England.
link |
So you, oh, you're directly referring to like using sex as a way to manipulate people?
link |
Well, she, her, she was known as like the, the Virgin Queen. And, and her thing was like,
link |
I'm married to England. Like I can't be distracted by man or woman, blah, blah, blah,
link |
she never had any kids, nothing. I think she did that as a tool of manipulation.
link |
Yes. What you need, rulers need to, you know, Obama made you feel good and then he went and
link |
carpet bombed everywhere. You need to feel good about your guy, no matter how evil they are.
link |
And she was fucking a dictator. But when you look back at her, everyone's like, oh my God,
link |
she was so great. The horror and the shit that she had to do, she didn't put that in history books.
link |
But that's what probably was part of what made her successful. And she's a fascinating character
link |
to partner with because she was so successful and, and England flourished so much. And it's
link |
just fascinating to me because she was the great Virgin Queen. And can you think of a,
link |
there's no other woman who was that say, I mean, Angela Merkel. I mean, come on. I mean,
link |
there's nobody who comes close and defeating the Spanish or Mata. I think that happened under
link |
her. I mean, I'm no professionalist, but I mean, the woman crushed. And do you think it's more
link |
effective to lead by love, which it sounds like what she did from the PR perspective or by fear?
link |
Where do you land on that? That's a great question. We got to ask Joe.
link |
Well, yeah, this is interesting because I think leading in the 21st century in whatever ways is
link |
different. I think it's very difficult to lead by fear. I mean, that's why I find Putin fascinating
link |
and like really fascinating. Like, is he a relic of another era or is he something that
link |
will still be necessary in the coming decades for certain nations?
link |
I think he's a, I don't think he's a relic from another era. I think his background,
link |
I think he is who you think he is because his background was an espionage. His background
link |
was in subterfusion espionage. I think I've said the word subterfusion maybe 10 times now,
link |
but he... You like big words, intellectuals. I'm just sitting here with you. It's time to flex.
link |
But he's very good at that, right? Like controlling people with psychology and
link |
even if you look at the way he sort of used the internet and has sort of been, you know,
link |
gotten into the citizens of other countries opinions and it's very KGB. He also looks great
link |
without a shirt on a pony. On a horse. On a horse. Yeah. Yeah. I thought he would choose a pony
link |
because a pony's smaller. Would you put Queen Elizabeth as the greatest leader of all time?
link |
Probably. Yeah. I think as a woman and you look at the length of the rain,
link |
I think it's like 70 something years or something like that. She reigned. Success, man. Success.
link |
She used the church. She used public psychology, Shakespeare, the greatest playwright of all time
link |
under her reign. You know, people were going to plays and it was a success front and she was
link |
marauding everywhere else, marauding and culling resources for the empire. Just say absolute
link |
successful. It's even a token of her success. We don't consider her a dictator. Yeah. She's a
link |
dictator. You know, she was queen. This is my thing I love about the feudal system that these
link |
fucking countries still have feudal systems. They're celebrating a horrible thing. Divine
link |
right of kings, oppression. Kings were dictators and now they have fucking ceremonial. Why don't
link |
we have a ceremonial furor? What is in German? He doesn't do any of the bad stuff. He just rolls
link |
around and does this shit. I mean, it's like, what the fuck? There's no difference between a
link |
Hitler and a fucking king. They did the same horrible shit. Why not a fucking ceremonial
link |
conqueror? Alexander the Great walks in, rapes it a little bit, but it's all fun. It's for
link |
ceremony. He represents the country. Macedonia is great. It's interesting to see that some
link |
you're starting to see a bit of that in Russia with Stalin, actually, the celebration of a man
link |
that helped win the great patriotic war. Uh oh. Yeah. Right. So like you you're already starting
link |
to see that is very possible in history books. You'll be seen as maybe like a Jengis Khan type
link |
of character and you forget the millions that he tortured. So you're one of the most successful
link |
and brilliant people the world has ever seen. So you're the good person to ask for advice.
link |
You know, there's a lot of young people that look up to you. God bless their souls and hearts.
link |
Made the right choice. What advice would you give to a young person, maybe to yourself,
link |
to a young version of yourself, you know, and just how to live a successful, a good life?
link |
Be doggedly you. I think the magic happens when you are stubbornly doggedly you and you
link |
meet other people who are doing the same. And the real magic of life, the real true currency in
link |
this ephemeral life is sort of the communication that happens between people. That's the real
link |
currency, friendships, love. It's cliche, but it's I think the meaning of life is to experience,
link |
to experience love. And I think people often mistake maybe it's because of Hollywood films
link |
and things like that, that love is feeling, but it's not. It's an action. So that took me a while
link |
to learn. And I think that's why I've made decisions since that I think have been good for me and
link |
healthy for me. Love is an action. People can say things, you can feel things. That doesn't mean
link |
they're necessarily real. It's all chemical reactions. It's all tied to our immaturity
link |
and psychological issues and survival. But action when you do things, when you act out of love,
link |
and that's what it's about. Is there times when you were younger where you were dishonest with
link |
who you are to yourself? Yeah. In terms of what kind of things did you have to do to shake yourself
link |
up and be like, okay, I thought I'm going to be a scientist, but instead I realized I'm going to do
link |
this. Yeah, my parents want it. I'm going to make funny. Yeah, my comedy is a hard thing to explain
link |
to an immigrant mother who came here and under Nazi occupied Crete and became a human rights
link |
lawyer and lawyer. And my brother's a lawyer. My father was a lawyer. Claude is way up. His dad
link |
was a... So you're a disappointment. I'm the black sheep. Yeah, my brother went to Oxford,
link |
Georgetown Law at Brown. He has master's and law degrees. My mother has four law degrees.
link |
She was on the Human Rights Commission in New York up for a judgeship under Dinkins,
link |
wrote a... She was the editor of Unitar. She wrote a seminal piece on the human rights of
link |
children for the United Nations. And yeah, I was a comedian. I was always a fuck up. And the thing
link |
that I was best at, the only thing I was ever decent at was just making people laugh. I don't
link |
know why. I don't know where that comes from. Was there ever a question or was there a moment
link |
where you decided this is what I'm going to do? There was a moment after I graduated college.
link |
Yeah, but I was thinking about all types of stuff that other people imposed on me. And
link |
I was honest with myself. And once I figured out it was an actual career path, I wasn't even aware.
link |
Back then the internet wasn't huge. You know, in late 99, 2000, it wasn't big yet. So I didn't
link |
even... I thought Robin Williams was just like an actor. I didn't know there was comedy clubs and all.
link |
So once I learned that, I was just like, I tried it. I suffered from massive anxiety. I remember
link |
the first time I did comedy, my arms went numb. I started having a massive panic attack. I have
link |
my first set. I can show it to you. It's like, I suggest I just... I'm video. Yeah, I'm video.
link |
Oh, nice. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And the reason why I kept saying thank you is because
link |
I forgot my whole jokes. I was so scared. And then they laughed because of the amount of times I said
link |
thank you. And then once they laughed, I remembered the whole thing. And I did the five minutes.
link |
And I remember getting off and for a person who never felt like he had a place anywhere,
link |
nothing ever felt right. That felt like, okay, I found it. This is what I'm supposed to do.
link |
This is it. It was the only time in my life I felt that I haven't felt it since,
link |
never felt it before. So it's the only thing I can do. And...
link |
Yeah, I had that. You know, it's funny because there's... I have a similar experience like immigrant
link |
family in the world tells you to do certain things and you think that's right. But then
link |
you put yourself in situations by luck, probably, where it's like, oh, this feels right. I don't
link |
know what this means, but this feels right. I think the biggest moment like that for me was...
link |
I don't know what to make of it exactly, but when I met Spot, the robot, the legged robot,
link |
it was like five years ago, it felt like the depth of fascinating ideas that are yet to be
link |
explored with this thing. This felt like a journey. It was like a door that opened.
link |
I was like, I don't want to be a professor. At that point, I realized I don't want to
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do sort of generic stuff. I want to do something crazy. I want to do something big.
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That's the reason I stepped away from MIT. That's the reason I have this burning desire to do a
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startup. That's the reason I came to Austin. Yeah, I don't know what the hell it all means,
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but you just follow that. That's awesome. That sounds like you're following what's
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doggedly you. Also, I think just to piggyback off it, I think that means no matter what it is,
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because I think the American dream is sold like, hey, if you're not Beyoncé or if you're not famous,
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you're not worth it. I hate that. That's what I love so much about certain countries like
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Sweden. It's like where everyone has healthcare and stuff like that, because everyone's a little
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is valued more. It's like whatever, if you want to be a doorman, dude, it's all the same. Prince
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was not happy. Just because you're rich or famous, you're still the same guy, whether your possessions
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are a lot little. It's like, I have met some doormen. I have met some tax gapers that a lot of you
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not are more fascinating. Comedians are horrible people. I want to get away from all, but I have
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very few friends, Paul Verzi, Tim Dillon, who are comedians because they're awful, awful people.
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Some of the people who you know the most, who are the most famous, are not who they say they are.
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Usually that's the case. They're putting on that public facade because they're fucking sociopaths.
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They're horrible people. And some of the most beautiful people I've met and the most interesting
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people I've met have regular jobs. There is no shame in any fucking job. We don't all have to be
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rappers with rims. It's just a weird thing. Yeah, fame is a drug. And yeah, comedians,
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I agree with you. There's some part of me that knows that there'll be a moment in my life when
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I'm standing there with a sword or a knife in my stomach and looking at Tim Dillon's smiling face
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saying, you shouldn't have trusted me. You stupid fuck. So on that note, Yannis, I've been a huge
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fan of yours. I love what you're doing with long days now, your new podcast. And I obviously love
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all the stuff you've done before with history, hyenas, the chemistry, the chemistry you have
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with yourself is also fun to watch. So man, I'm a huge fan. It's a huge honor that you come down
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here. Thanks so much for talking to me. It means so much to me to hear you say that. I really
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appreciate I'm a big fan of yours. And have me on has been amazing. And just thank you, man.
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Thank you for having me on. And people, if they want to watch my special, it's called Blowing
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the Light. It's on YouTube. And please come listen to Long Days of Podcast. And let's go eat some
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barbecue. Let's do it. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Yannis Papas. And thank you
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to Wine Access, Blinkist, Magic Spoon, and Indeed. Check them out in the description to
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support this podcast. And now let me leave you with some words from Karl Marx. Revolutions
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are the locomotives of history. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.