back to indexChris Duffin: The Mad Scientist of Strength | Lex Fridman Podcast #207
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The following is a conversation with Chris Duffin, the mad scientist of strength.
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He's one of the strongest people in the world, but is also an engineer of some of the most
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innovative strength equipment I've ever seen. Check out his company, Kabuki Strength.
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He is the only person who squatted and deadlifted 1,000 pounds for multiple reps,
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and achieved many other amazing feats of strength.
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He has lived one hell of a life of hardship and triumph, as he writes about in his book
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called The Eagle and the Dragon. Quick mention of our sponsors, Headspace,
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Magic Spoon, Sunbasket, and Ladder. Check them out in the description to support this podcast.
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As a side note, let me say that I was always a fan of strength,
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both powerlifting and Olympic weightlifting, both as a fan and practitioner.
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Mostly, I'm a fan of people who are willing to put in years of hard work towards finding out what
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the limits of their body is, and then smashing past those limits. People like Chris Duffin,
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or on the Olympic weightlifting side, people like Dmitri Klokov. That guy's great.
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This is why I love watching the Olympics, both the heartbreaks and the triumphs.
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They all reveal the incredible heights that the human mind and the human body can reach.
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This is the Lex Friedman podcast, and here is my conversation with Chris Duffin.
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You've been a part of several incredible feats of strength. Which was the hardest,
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or maybe one you're most proud of? Definitely the one I'm most proud of is that journey
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for the grand goals. It was like a five year scope that I chased this. When you think about
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training, it took more than five years, obviously. By that point, I'd been training for over 25 years.
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It makes me proud. There were three distinct things that I wanted to accomplish out of this.
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It was really thought out. This was my exit from being a competitive lifter. Basically saying,
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hey, I'm going to be an Instagram lifter, an exhibition lifter, or whatever. I've done this
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for 16 years. That's number one in the world for eight years straight, all time world records.
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I'm not going to do that anymore. What I want to do is just something deep down to me
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that is really important. There's three things that we're driving this. This is a five year
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journey that I went through to do this. I really wanted to showcase that you could do something
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that is well beyond the scope of what people think is humanly possible.
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So just this inspiration thing, this grand over the top. If you set your mind to a single minded
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goal, you can go so much further. I didn't even say what the goal was up front because it was so
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far out there I would have been laughed at. I think big goals should be kept pretty damn close
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to start with for that reason too. Then the second piece was to walk the walk, to show
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the principles of what I believed in around human movement, the ability to manage and control the
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spinal mechanics and the output that can have on the body. I wanted to take the two most basic
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movements that every able bodied person should be able to do. So fundamental movement patterns,
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the squat, which is like in the developmental approach is around nine months as a baby from
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a developmental kinesiology standpoint and a really basic pattern that every able bodied
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person should be able to master. The other one being the hip hinge, being able to pick
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something up off the ground, a deadlift. And I wanted to do those two, not just one, because
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I wanted to show the principles that I wasn't built for one. I wasn't a specialist because of
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my lever links, torso links, all that, any outliers, because nobody had ever done
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a thousand pound squat. So this is it is and a thousand pound deadlift. It was outside of the
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scope of what anybody's there's like half a dozen people that have done one or the other,
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but nobody's ever done both. And I wanted to do something unique. I wanted to do them,
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not only do it, but do them for reps to leave literally no question out there. And there's no
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competition for that. So it was, this is what I'm going to go do. And to pull it off, I had some
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past issues with my elbows and stuff that I couldn't work around. So I had to wear
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straps, which was another reason I didn't do it in the competition setting.
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So the first year I worked up and I did a thousand and two pound deadlift,
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we plates were weighed afterwards, it was a couple little bit over. And I did it for almost
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three reps. And that still stands as Guinness World Record, just the one rep does, is the
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most weight ever sumo deadlifted. And one other person has deadlifted a thousand for reps at
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this point. And that was Thor Bjornsson from Game of Thrones, he's done a thousand for a double as
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well. So then the next four years, and I did a bunch of feats of strength on the way, but it was
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all about building that axial loading capacity, the strength that because now I'm moving the weight
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from my hands up to my shoulders. And so to do it for reps is like so much harder than a single,
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like five to 10 seconds versus 30 plus seconds to be able to buffer and manage all that with that
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kind of load is just crazy. So it's literally about the duration that your body is carrying the load.
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Yeah, that's a big part of it. Yeah. Because you have to, you're using the resource of the
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diaphragm for stabilization. And so it's also responsible for respiration and all this other
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stuff. So even when you're not squatting, you've got to be handling those loads.
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Just holding that weight is fascinating. It's like, it's fascinating that the human body
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can do that, can, can maintain that structure, just everything working together, that the biology,
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the skeletal structure, the musculature on top of that can hold the weight. It's fascinating to
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watch. Everything is very intentful about positioning and how you're creating pressure and
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all this sort of stuff, especially for me. So when I mentioned that half a dozen people have
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squatted it and half a dozen people have deadlifted it, you understand those people all weigh 380 to
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440 pounds. I weighed 265 to 285 depending on the where I was between the two. So there's that as
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well, right? So big, big difference. And over the course of that, I did a lot of other feats
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of strength that fit in that capacity and we can skip over those. But that was hugely invested as
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far as what I put into being able to accomplish that because it's over the top, which means the
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other stuff had to shift and I had to learn. There's so many things that came into place to
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pull that off. And so yeah, last March, two days before the world shut down, I did it. It was supposed
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to be at the largest equipment exhibition in the world down in San Diego as an event. And that
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got shut down a week beforehand, obviously. So we moved to let's do it in my gym and invite people.
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And that was on a Saturday and Thursday or Friday, they limited it to 25 people for gatherings.
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I did it on Saturday. And then Monday, everything shut down. So it was kind of surreal for timing
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wise, right? And so if I hadn't done it, it wouldn't never got done. Because I'd pushed to the limit.
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I couldn't come back and do it. It was at the total limitation of my capabilities. So I'm pretty
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proud of it. And the last piece was every one of these feats along the way, I collaborated with a
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charity that I believed in. And there was a lot of those tied to my life story, which we probably
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will get into. So it was threefold. So that inspiration piece, inspiration, motivation,
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walk in the walk and showing like, just these methodologies that a guy that had to learn to
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walk again can do something like this with no back pain. There is a way. And the third one is
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to provide awareness and recognition around a lot of key charities. So your heart was in this
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journey, but also your mind is just you're like a scholar of strength, a scientist of strength,
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an engineer of strength. For reps, do 1000 pounds of squat and deadlift. Let's first talk through
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the actual day you did it. What does it take to lift that much for reps?
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The day of is really easy. The lift itself, other than a few seconds, is really easy and not
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challenging. People always ask me, what was it like? How beat up were you after that and the
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deadlift? And the simple fact is, it was easy. The work to get there was horrendous. So even
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the psychology of the day, there was not a fear. There was not a nervousness. There was not a doubt
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in your mind. There was certainly doubts on that day from some training history. So there was some
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major breaks to my confidence in the couple months leading up where I had issues with passing out
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under the bar. So completely losing consciousness. And this was on weight less than 1000 pounds even.
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So that was all this build up in me going, what if? What if I think I have this resolved?
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But what if I get up there and I can't even do a rep? How embarrassing will this be that I've
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been talking about this and planning for this for so long? But outside of that, I knew I could do it.
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In fact, I wanted to do even more even up to the second rep. Training is about working into a
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fatigue state. So you're building an amount of fatigue in your system. And then when you let off
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of it, that's when you get a compensation. And that's how you stair step training. This is
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periodization. But leading into a big event, you're accumulating this massive amount of fatigue.
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And so I was performing at a level that I could do it. And so I knew I was going to be able to
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on meat because then you give yourself that window to be able to recover and supercompensate
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and be able to do a little bit more. So like that first rep when I did it, strengthwise,
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I went, I could do this for five reps. It went through my head. I'm like, I mean, it was easy
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and it was fast. And it felt like amazing. And I'm like, I'm going to crush this. And then set
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rep to the realization kicked in is like, Oh, this is for reps with 1000 pounds on your back.
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And you're fatiguing just like, and then the third one was every last thing I could muster to just
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finish. I mean, I just barely got it done because it's the strength is like there, but like that
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capacity to be able to manage all those resources for that amount of time. Because not just leg
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strength when we're talking about this stuff. So what does it take to go from the, from, I don't
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know what, no, like from 500 to 1000. That feels like a journey that's like exponential. It's
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it gets exponentially harder. It does. In the early 2000s, like I said, I started lifting 1988.
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But my first meet in the early 2000s, my, my max deadlift was 523 and my first squat was 550.
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So breath the heck of a journey. That is a journey for people that are like to lift,
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what should they understand about the difference between doing 500 and 1000
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in terms of the actual lift that you were experiencing that day in terms of the mechanics,
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in terms of all the things you have to be like the neurological adaptation you mentioned,
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the breathing, the core strength, what like techniques, like little tricks, psychological
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tricks, anything that kind of stands out to you. The level of intent and the opportunity for error
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are at a different level. So just the minutest changes of position by quarter inch, half inch
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can be make or break at that level. So these things, everything gets amplified. So the ability to
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start with having the pelvis just in the right orientation to the diaphragm before we start
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initiating what we call the, the eccentric loading of the abdominal cavity to create this
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intra abdominal pressure of working against this outward expansion, working against the outer sheath
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of abdominal thoracolumbar musculature obliques, causing the co contraction at the pelvic floor,
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all this stuff and how you cue that because you can't think about all this stuff. You need to
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break it down and distill and practice to like it's one simple cue that we now lock down and
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control this torso stability because this is what these fundamental movements are about is being able
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to control our spinal mechanics and then now be able to maintain that while articulating the joints
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around that through a range of motion and then using the main power drivers. So in this instance,
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both instances, it's the, you know, the hip complex to generate that power and transfer it from how
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we're rooted and connected to the floor through to the distal end, you know, which would be the
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barbell on the shoulder. You know, there's a couple key concepts. So one is that what we just
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talked through is how to actually maintain that stability. So if you have either the diaphragm,
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so, which is connected at the rib cage, so out of alignment in any position, it needs to be
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in alignment with the pelvic, the pelvis. So those two in opposition. So this is simple
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engineering here. Because what we're going to do is eccentrically load this, we're going to use the
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diaphragm just like you would in a diaphragm pump, where it's going to press down on all the tissue
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in there. So we're not using breath. So our breath was actually a lot of times a default pattern
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when people do that because they'll bring it into their chest and raise their rib cage. So
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what we want to do is just initiate the diaphragm air can be used as well over the top at the final
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to create just a little bit more downward pressure. But if we have out of alignment there, we have a
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pressure leak where it's going to be pushed out the front or the rear if you're either inflection
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or extension. All right. And then that causes this co contraction and all this pressure of
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the organs essentially against outward against all those tissue for the co contraction,
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as well as surrounding the spine to be able to stabilize that. And then it puts all the muscles
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on both sides of the body in what we call the best length tension relationship. So if you think
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about a curl and we reach our arm out at the extended length, our bicep is not as strong.
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And then all the way in the curl position, it's not in strong. There's somewhere in here that's
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this control of both. And so when you're sitting there arched or bent over, we have muscles that
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are past either one of those ranges. So they've got a lot of tension, which then will create
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relaxation on the other side, right? So we want to have an all of that needs to be working.
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And now the next important thing is the foot. So it's actually this connection to the ground
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and how we're actually using the foot and ankle complex to grab and grip this connection to the
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ground and elicit an effect. And because of this and then the everything between will naturally
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kind of do what it needs to do. So people like to focus on knee, knee position or how far out
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their hips are or all this other stuff, which is outputs of this. So if we control the torso and the
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knee, the only thing that can happen from that point is for the squat to happen. All right.
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So this allows us to use this massive foot, you know, the hip complex for all the muscles around
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that that are built to drive through hip extension to complete the squat. I did actually miss one
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thing in there. So this torso, people often miss the lat is a spinal stabilizer as well. So that's
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key in controlling function at the the TL junction, which is just above the lumbar spine. So kind of
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right opposite where your sternum is, and you'll see people kind of roll over sometimes like in
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an Olympic squad or something like that where they lose position. And that's often because
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they're close grip because you can engage the lats very well that way and they're pushing up in the
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bar. But you want to be able to drive and pull the bar to your center and that's going to create
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and use the lats now to drive and connect the shoulder into this. We're kind of compressing
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and tightening all this stuff towards that center to create that entire torso stability. That's why
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I was using torso stability, not just core stability in my conversation earlier.
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Torso stability. Okay, so there's all these like modules of the body then connected to the grounding
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with like your feet on the ground. Everything you're speaking to, how do you work each of those
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modules? Is this over time you kind of develop the feel that ultimately boils onto this one simple
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cue that you mentioned? Or do you can you like literally study each particular module in yourself
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and see how it affects the lift? So the best way and I believe it's because I hate just like people
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getting out and just doing just movement stuff and not actually adding load because we only adapt
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when there's load. Maybe we can get some, you know, some proprioception or awareness of position
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and other stuff doing some, some corrective patterns and other stuff. But this is basic physiology
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is that there must be an imposed demand for us to have adaptation. And this is mental,
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this is emotional, this is all these areas. But and people miss that. So I prefer to be able to
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look at a person and this is our methodology and do the assessment in any basic loaded movement.
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So with developing an eye for that, you can actually see and go, okay, we've got a fault
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pattern right here in the foot and use a cue or a set of cues doesn't really matter till we find
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the one that works and bring that. And now we know we want to simplify this stuff. I just
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walk through that sounds really complicated. And it is if we try to break down and distill it all,
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but like, let's just find the basic stuff that gets us in the range, start working,
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and then find the next as we add load. Now we find where's our next area that we're starting to fault
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that and then go there again next. So this is what we do what we teach in our educational
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platform. So we are the only I believe everybody wants to do a lot of these like assessments,
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you know, on a bench on a table body. And it's like, no, let's let's go squat, let's go deadlift.
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If you do strongman in a CEO carry, let's go carry, because these are basic human fundamentals.
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It's not powerlifting. Like this is how we function. This is why we, we work with 29 of
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the 30 major league baseball teams and 90% of all professional sports out there in North America.
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Sorry, although we do some work with Tour de France and other stuff as well. And North America,
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I do mean hockey too. But these principles like, you know, if if the Dodgers won't bring us in,
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they're not learning how to powerlift, you know, we're gonna, obviously we'll probably be do,
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we do a little bit more shoulder focus than hip focus with their athletes or their coaches.
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We're usually working with coaches, not the athletes. And so you help them and then the
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same thing on yourself to understand the role that these different muscle groups have on the
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holistic. Yeah. So it's all about getting the joints in the appropriate position
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so that we can, that we can manage load so that we're not putting undue stress in the joint,
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we're getting the proper link tension, we're getting these basic fundamental things with the
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body. And so the, the largest global impact that you will have is through spinal mechanics.
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I can't look at a shoulder if I'm not managing this because it's your spine. So for those that
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are just listening like I'm arching and then, and then flexing, that's going to affect shoulder
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extension, flexion, all these sorts of things. So it could even affect things down on what's
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looking at dorsiflexion issues on the foot, like, and then that's why I go to the foot next because
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it has the second largest global impact. And then from there, now I'm going to look at the big energy
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drivers, which is the hip complex, shoulder complex. And then we can start looking at kind of the
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peripheral things, but usually that's some sort of output of the other, but the knees, the elbows,
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the things like that. So it's all about getting the stack, which affects neurology.
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So let's talk of engineering terms. You get in a car, modern car today, and a lot of them will have
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this traction control button in there. And there's a big misconception that I'm out and it's snowy or
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here in Austin only rainy, well, it probably doesn't rain much, but you're going around a corner,
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start slipping, it's like, oh, it's going to send the powers from the wheels that are slipping to
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the ones that are gripping and keep me from crashing and dying a fiery death. Well, that's
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not how it works. It's the exact same. We've got the tires, which are our foot, the connection
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to the ground, right? We've got the power driver, which is, you know, the engine, the transmission
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delivering, you know, the power through it. And we've got the stability or suspension. And then
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we have the neurology. And what the neurology is doing, it's sensing that we don't have good
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stability or loss of connection somewhere. And so I need to save you from crashing and hurting
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yourself. And so it goes to the engine and says, let's retard the timing, let's reduce the shift
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patterns, and we're just reducing the power output. And that's straight how the human body works.
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So when I do this stuff, it's actually affecting that. I mean, I can take somebody and do some
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minute changes with the neck position at the thoracic outlet, okay, and immediately see an
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enhancement in power output. And I can measure it, we measure this stuff with velocity devices.
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And see like a 10%, boom, jump. And so if you think about that, what about all your training
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through the years, where you actually had additional capacity, but you weren't using it because
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your traction control was on. Now you figure this out stuff. And now you start stacking it,
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now you can see so much greater. So it's not just injury prevention. This is performance and additive
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performance over time. This is huge. And people don't really think about this stuff. But we can
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turn that stuff off, which is actually going to also, again, make us make us safer. But what we
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want to do is the performance tune race car, do they have a traction control button? No, they got
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some amazing tires to grip the ground performance tune suspension. And that driver is going to put
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what his foot to the metal, he's going to put it to the floor. Okay, that's a performance vehicle.
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That's what we want to be. I want to continue on the line. But first I have to ask,
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how did it feel to accomplish the grand goal? Oh my God. Okay, when you just
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stand back 1000 pounds for reps, what do you feel like? Anybody can go watch the video online.
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12 film, by the way, got me all excited. Oh, well, the movies. So we actually have the final
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footage of that, the good footage not posted yet. So it's literally just an Instagram video or a
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phone video right now. They're the only one online. Yeah, it's on your YouTube channel,
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but it's dramatic. Yes, it is. Yeah, came out just time to the music perfectly too, which is,
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I listened to some odd music, which there's some reason behind that. But
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I liked it though. It was great. You're saying there's full length footage.
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There's a documentary that's it's got a little slowed because of COVID because it's also a
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backstory of the eagle and the dragon in my book about why I do kind of the things that I've done
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in my life. Or that's what I'm assuming the director is working on. I don't really have
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the control of the movie, right? But okay, the video is okay. How did it feel? How did it feel?
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I started crying. It was overwhelming to have worked so intensely and so long and hard at
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something that pushed every ounce of me to the limit. And I did it. I'm getting a little emotional.
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I did exactly what I said I was going to fucking do. And it was overpowering. I mean,
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I was just crying uncontrollably just with a mixture of I don't know what the mixture of
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emotions is hard to explain. Because it was the completion of something. It was a new phase of
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middle eight. I mean, there's so many things here. So one, you set an impossible goal and you
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accomplished it. One, two is like on the broader humanity aspect, like how many humans in this
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world accomplish perfection in a particular direction required to do this. So like you're
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basically representing one little glimmer of excellence of the human spirit.
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There's always more to understand this. This is a basic fundamental. You can always do better.
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There is no such thing as perfection. There is always more. So anytime you reach something,
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any amazing workout or accomplishment in life, could you have put more into it? Could you?
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Yes. But here's the thing. I left on my terms. I said, this is it. I'm going to work towards.
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I've been training for 30 years. I'm going to do this thing that is like I couldn't even say that
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I was going to do it years before. I'm going to do it. And then I'm done. I didn't leave from an
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injury. I left on, I did exactly what I said. I went to a level that I left on my terms. And
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that's unique. Because that's usually not the case. Usually you kind of either taper out or
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it doesn't matter. I'm talking like anything in life in general, right? You taper out, you fail,
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you hurt, you lose. You roll into retirement. You accomplish something truly great and you
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walked away in your own terms. Is there a sadness completing something like that? Because it's
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in one perspective, the greatest thing you'll ever do. And when you accomplish such a great height,
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in some sense, you have to face your mortality at that point. So good question. But it is certainly
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not the greatest thing that I'll ever do. The greatest physical strength I'll ever do. The
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greatest physical strength. Yes. But that was an expression of some of my values and the way that
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I want to live. It was a way of expressing it. So understanding that is hugely fundamental.
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Because we do see so many athletes get to the end of a career and then they fall into
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a depressive state and struggle with drugs, alcohol, depression, and so on. Because they
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lost how they identified themselves and trying to figure out where to turn what to do. But a big
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central component of their identity is lost. So I knew that this was one way to express that and my
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grand goals have shifted. They're shifted to other outlets that allow me to express that. Like my
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companies, Kabuki Strength, I'm going to change the face of fitness as well as all the way through
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with its integration with clinical medicine and telemedicine. And I got another five years before
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even people see what I'm working on five years in right now because I had to invent equipment.
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I have to develop methodologies that we're talking. I had to do this stuff that ground layer
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wasn't done to create a cohesive ecosystem of training methodology tied to the tools that we're
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using to the environment tied to the clinical practice assessment tied to the interaction
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between all those and how that actually needs to be reframed because so much of this is broken.
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Okay. So, but there is sadness. I won't deny that. And the sadness comes in the singularity
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of focus that I had at that time, the being in the process. Not necessarily do it, but having
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being in this place that the rest of the world kind of fell away from me in those final faces to
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have something so intense, to have a team around me so focused on supporting. And it took me a
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couple months after that squad, I finally one day I woke up and I was like, oh, welcome back to the
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world. I was in such a mental fog. It took me a while to climb out of that, but that space,
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that level of intensity and drive and living and being in that space, I do miss that. But I also,
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I can't continue that. I couldn't continue. Like, there's a point of like, you push it so hard.
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The level to try to go from there is not acceptable for what you, the impacts that
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will have on your life or how you want to live. And it was taking away those final, like,
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I had to do extreme things and live in an extreme way to get there.
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You're just a genius in this whole space of strength and health and body, almost like biology,
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that this strength feat is just one representation of that. But this particular strength feat
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required that kind of singular focus, which I think, I don't know, there's something beautiful
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about that singular focus that is often only truly perfect in athletics. I see it with the
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greatest Olympic athletes as well. The kind of singular focus required there is incredible. It's
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somehow some of the most beautiful things that humans can do.
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And it's not just that thing. So that's the thing. It's like, oh, that must be,
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when we say singular to focus, it's not like, here's it, because it covers a vast array of stuff.
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I was working with people, you know, all, well, yeah, all around North America. I wouldn't say
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anybody around the globe, but professionals coming in working on different aspects of rehab and
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recovery. And like, I mean, I'm tapping all sorts of stuff in so many platforms, from nutrition
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to drugs to, again, like, you know, various Chinese medicine, you know, as far as, you know.
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But also the humans in your life just love and positivity and just inspiration, all those kinds
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of aspects. I mean, you probably would have done much more if you went outside North America and
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talked to some Russians, just between you and I. Possibly. They give you some, I don't know,
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those, there's some incredible strength athletes in Eastern Europe. Absolutely. I've got the best
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one coming in September to get fixed. So what do you mean by fixed? So I'm not sure what his
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particular issues are, but he has held the all time world record repeatedly for a long time,
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and he hasn't competed for some time, and he just reached out saying he would like to come and have
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me take a look and see if I can get him fixed because he needs to return. Okay. So it's more
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injury centric versus like form and fundamental centric combination of everything.
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Everybody always wants to focus on the output. How do you, how do you give me the fix for that?
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But it ties right back into all those other things, right? So, but yeah, the Eastern,
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the Eastern Bloc continued to be a dominant force in regards to athletics and strength
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athletics without a doubt. Some of my big rivals in my competitive days were, that's who it was.
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Rivalry brings out the best in us. Can you tell me the story of your childhood?
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It's definitely outside the scope of the norm. Well, today, maybe not 150 or 200 years ago,
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but my parents, highly intelligent people coming out of the Bay Area,
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my mom was going to school to be a chemical engineer. She was a top student athlete,
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graduating out of her school. My father was a member of Mensa. My stepfather was just a genius,
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but not able to really function in society. But my mom was, she had some demons and some other
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stuff and just, she just said one day, she's like, I just don't want to be part of society. She still
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isn't, lives out in the desert, but has her minds, but she wanted to figure out a way to make a life
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outside of that. And so that's where we ended up is up in the mountains in Northern California.
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And a lot of that was, you know, them trying to get into successfully growing marijuana, which
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back in that, you know, wasn't legal back then, highly illegal. And in fact, those areas were,
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some of the areas where it lived were quite dangerous. So there's a documentary murder
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mountain that came out recently. If you watch that, you'll tie into my book, just the understanding
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of the stuff that I was talking about dealing with serial killers, human trafficking, police
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corruption, murderers, like just how real that stuff is if it doesn't capture you from the book.
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Okay. The book, by the way, is the Eagle and the Dragon. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. I'm a
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terrible salesperson, like I told you. But a good, it's a good title. I don't know if you came up with
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it, but I did. Yeah. So yeah, we'll talk about that anyway. We're living by a stream, you know,
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off a meadow. There's no roads into where you have to hike in. And we've got beams lashed into the
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trees up above us, because that's where our bedding is, because there's rattlesnake dens
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all around. And six years old, I'm being taught how to capture and handle live rattlesnakes,
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because that's what I need to do to be safe. And you can imagine six years old sitting there with
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a live rattlesnake in your hand grabbing it, you know, by the side of the head, controlling so it
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can't bite you. And it's just wrapping itself around your arm. And you're staring like, it's
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only intent is right then is to kill you. Like that's it, right? You want to take a bath. It's
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filling up the jug in the stream and setting it out on the rocks during the sun. So you dump it
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over your head. And you know, not all the living was that way. You know, good part was similar
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to that tent living, living in a 16 foot trailer with a family of six, which is not much bigger
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than the space that we're sitting here. So we're talking hard winters with feet of snow on the
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ground nowhere to go. I'm living in the back of the pickup truck and just a standard sleeping bag
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that we get from the Salvation Army, not the not the blow zero. So I'm, I'm not sleeping well.
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There's living in homes that were maybe condemned. There's no, no doors even on them. No electricity
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or running water or one or the other both and sometimes a little bit better by the time we
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got to high school, we had a mobile home. So my stepfather had won a disability payment because
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he had a broken arm that whole time from accidents a long time ago and finally got an award and got
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a down payment on this mobile home that didn't have again doors on the inside. It did have
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running water. It did have electricity. It didn't have a kitchen. You know, the windows would crank
link |
clothes and open, but they wouldn't close all the way. So the trim them in with a plastic to be able
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to try to protect from the elements. That was my environment, like learning how to forge for
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mushrooms. I mean, there were summers I would send and my parents would be out. They were in the drug
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trade earlier. We got taken by the, by the police and put into foster care for, for a while, which
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ties into some of the stories with human trafficking. And honestly, it's in my book,
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but it's really hard for me to talk about that stuff. And obviously not all that's in the book.
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But they got us back, moved to Oregon, and they stayed out of the drug trade from that time to
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ensure that they didn't lose us again, but quickly we kind of fell back into the same thing. So at
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that point it was learning about geology and starting to do mining and firewood cutting,
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but mostly the mining because Pat's broken arm chainsaw made a little tough.
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If you remember just the sequence of moments,
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do you, are you haunted by the, the darker moments of your childhood? Do you remember
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moments of simple joy and happiness?
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Outside of the living around dangerous people and the interactions that came from that,
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we were a family. Like we were a cohesive unit battling against the world together. We spent
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all our time together, work, play. I was there. I was helping raise my, my siblings or I was
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working with them and, you know, it was a constant. Like I said, we were very physically active. So,
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you know, I had that in my upbringing. Pat plugged for my shoe company, Barefoot,
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I ran around the wilderness and bare feet all the time, you know, but it was,
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I had a lot of great moments and I'm thankful for a lot of that childhood once we take out the trauma,
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the other stuff associated with it, right? And so the connection that I have with my sisters
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is, is, is huge. That goes a bit further to, because I am kind of like a little bit of a
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father figure because I was at home raising them and then later I took custody of them
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while I was going to school because the environment at home deteriorated further.
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Their stepfather, like I said, was, he wasn't capable of managing life and my mom had a mental
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breakdown and took off to Montana and he descended into madness even worse. Actually took my,
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my 13 year old sister and kicked her out in the middle of winter, a couple feet of snow on the
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ground because he thought she stole his favorite cereal bowl type. So yeah, that's when I took
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in and I was going to college, put myself through college and I started taking custody of my
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sisters and raising them. So anyway, we're still like very, very tight family. It took,
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there was a few years later in life, like that the connection with my mother was
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kind of broken. I didn't speak to her for years because of her basically abandoning
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my sisters and me having to come in, but we've worked through that as best we can.
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So you anger on your part?
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It wasn't, there might have been some anger.
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Did you always love her?
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Yes, and I still do and I'm so, she's taught me basically everything I know about strength and
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perseverance and living life on your terms and being able to, to create that and so much of
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what I am is from that, right? We've all had to learn to be okay with the way she is because she
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is just blunt, but you know, she's the one that figured out that the human trafficking situation
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and got the DA involved and got all the, she's the one that I've learned a lot from her.
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Did you inherit some of the demons?
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Almost certainly. And it's something I've continued like in my father's side has been
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really tough on that because some of it is just based genetic as well. So my stepfather made,
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I think six or seven attempts on his life during his lifetime, one of those in front of me,
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his mother blew her head off with a shotgun. Her brother jumped out a window in LA, their father
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did something similar and I don't know how far back it goes because there is no family except
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for me and my children. You spoke about going through depression yourself.
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Yeah. Can you talk about some of the darker moments of that? Have you ever,
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like many in your family, have you ever considered suicide?
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Yes, I have. Yes, I have.
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You've achieved a lot of exceptional things in your life. Can you talk about those early
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days of depression and how you overcame it? Yeah. So the things that I did that people
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give me accolades for are the things that I did selfishly to save myself. The things like taking
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custody of my sisters, being the person that everybody around, you know, the important
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people relied on, the fact that I had to step to the plate and be present and be that person.
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Because if I failed, they failed. They would be like the people that I grew up with that
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are dead or in prison or on drugs and they're either way to one of those, right? That's where
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everybody ended and I wasn't going to let that happen. What about saving yourself?
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And so that's how in those early days, that's how I did it. Not saying it's the best approach,
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but it was survivor mentality. It was, I can't selfishly do that because I have them to take
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care of, right? And then that continued where I would keep putting myself in these leadership
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roles or other things and there's always being this person that was at the center at the hub that
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forced me to be there. And so it's only in the more recent, you know, last decade or so that
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I have had to really learn how to come and start confronting some of those demons.
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And you think, man, why is the guy so successful? Like, I mean, and we haven't talked about all
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the stuff that I've done, but like, I've seen a lot of success in both business leadership,
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athletics, academics, entrepreneurship, all these sorts of things, right? But if it wasn't for,
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you know, having kids and the same being in the position, I wouldn't be here.
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And that's just, that's the reality of it. And I'm learning to come and manage those
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as best I can, learning to meditate into those things and really feel what the driver is so I
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can get to those, those root understanding and having some guidance doing so. Like, if you've
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got mental health issues, this isn't something that you need to tackle on your own. Like,
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having a professional that can help guide you on that introspective journey is, is something like,
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it's not like, Hey, I'm big, tough guy. I can handle everything.
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You know, that's fascinating that you saved yourself. That's quite powerful to save yourself
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by having others depend on you. And so you can't fail. You can't fuck it up. And that's a reason to
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keep moving forward. But on the flip side, that's not addressing the darkness. It's not. And it
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probably not a sustainable strategy either, right? So I recognize these things. I don't know. And
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perhaps it is sustainable. Perhaps, I mean, there's something beautiful about
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giving yourself basically in service of others and thereby creating purpose.
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And then like, it's almost like, fake it till you make it. And then you make it eventually.
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Yeah, that is purpose, though. That is purpose. That is purpose. I mean, you have to, to me,
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life is about taking your cup and how you choose to pour it out, how you choose to give. What is
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your purpose? What is that connection with everybody around you? This is, that's, that's the
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intent. That's the life. That's, that's what life is about. How are you going to help those around
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you? How are you going to help the world? You know, your purpose is, is right here, figuring
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out what this is. And then how to do that. But at the same time, you can't let that run dry. So
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you have to make sure that you're filling that cup. That's the other side, right? That's the other
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side. Yeah. We'll return to your engineering degree, which you're obviously scientifically
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engineering minded, which is fascinating. Your book is titled The Eagle and the Dragon.
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What do the eagle and the dragon symbolize? There are pretty big symbols for me, in fact,
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that covers my entire body as a tattoo. So the first one I had done at around 19 years old,
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man. So this is, or started at 19. It's an eagle that covers my entire front, you know,
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my stomach, rib cage, and, and one that was on my back that covered most of my back and
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there's chained at the, well, at the claw, I guess. And the chain wraps down around and
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attaches to my ankle and there's a shackle there. And so this was something that I had
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done at that age, because it was, to me, it was a representation of your potential,
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your strengths, your abilities that you can fly to whatever height that you want in this world.
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The only thing holding you back at the end of the day is yourself. And this was,
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obviously, I hadn't necessarily accomplished a whole lot at that time. I mean, I was valedictorian
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for high school, small high school. Does that even count? I was a state level wrestler.
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This was my belief. And you sense that there was a potential in you and the only thing they
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could stop you from realizing that potential was yourself. That's right. That's a heck of a tattoo
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to get, by the way, at 19, but. Yeah. About 40 hours went into that thing.
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It shows you got some guts. And then the next tattoo. So I only have two. I had done in 2015,
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2016, when I, so at this point in my life. So I had done that. I had flown to whatever heights.
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Right. So I had, I had proven to myself and maybe done what I thought I needed to do to
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show the world that this poor kid from the sticks, this kid growing up in the mountains with nothing
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could achieve the American dream. I was a corporate executive sought after that I'd come in,
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I'd fix companies, I'd turn around and prep them for sale. I'd take a company and grow it from a
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regional to a national to a global presence. I did this in the automotive manufacturing,
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aerospace manufacturing, high tech, heavy industry. And I had a house with a white picket fence.
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I was a successful athlete with all time world records. I owned a gym on the side where I coached
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people and I had a comfortable marriage that everything was hunky dory with no arguments at
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home. And I walked away from all of it. I left everything behind except for my kids.
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I wanted to chase what I was meant to do and chase what I was capable of doing.
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And I wanted to become a better version of myself, but very intentfully.
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And that's what I did. I sold, I had multiple homes sold my homes.
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I cashed in all my retirement that I'd earned for 20, nearly 20 years.
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And I lost all that. I leveraged myself millions of dollars of personal debt so that if I failed,
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there was no way out. Even going back to that old career that I did well,
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I'd be living in an apartment the rest of my life paying it off.
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People question, people question me at the time because I had a comfortable, easy marriage.
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And I chose to ask for a divorce. And I ended up living in an apartment for a couple years
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with no income, selling off every last thing that I had except for my two vehicles that I built.
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And with my kids. And I started my businesses to help people live a better quality of life,
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to get them out of pain, to help them live better through strength, to realize that stress,
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demand, those things that they don't have to be the thing that, if you look back,
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made you had the bad back, made you have the bad days, but they do the opposite. They get you
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out of pain. And then I started working on my book to hit on those other things, the mental,
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the emotional, maybe even spiritual. I don't touch on that one too much in there, but it's all the
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same. That things that happen around you to you, like maybe they're bad, I can't take away that,
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but why can't you use what you have of it to become a stronger and better person,
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to become more resilient, to be able to take the things that you don't know that are coming
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in the future. And so this is very intentful. And that's what the second long winded answer
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in your question here, the dragon, the dragon, the dragon is an Auroboros. And so it is, it circles
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my entire upper body, my shoulders, my back, my chest, everything is right here. There's this big
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dragon head and its tail is right there in its mouth that's eating itself.
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And it may sound a bit graphic or whatever, but it is, it's the eating of the old becoming
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the new. It is the purposeful reinvention of oneself. It is the deciding,
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not realizing just your potential, but deciding specifically who you want to be in this fucking
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world and becoming that person. Can you comment on the value and the power of
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putting a flame to your old life, your old self, just destroying all of it
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as you walk into the new life? Did you have to do that?
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I don't recommend this, by the way, because when you put yourself in no way out, there is no way
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out. You got to really, but I can be an overconfident individual at times. And I live through
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extremes. I think it's a great way of actually finding your real values and how you want to live,
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honestly, to chase the having absolutely perfect squat technique, but chase putting every freaking
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thing that you've got in it, which most people would say, those are opposite. Those are diametrically
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opposed. I wanted a better home life. I wanted to do more in the world through my work.
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And the burning the bridges mentality is not necessarily the best. There was some temperament
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in that though, because I was slow to make the shift for a long time, because I'd been thinking
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about doing it, but I was thinking about doing it in a healthcare perspective. I'm going to go back
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to school to be a surgeon or a physical therapist or Cairo, because that's where all my research and
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stuff was in this human movement and rehab and recovery. The mentors that I've been developing
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were the best in the world in these things, in these disciplines. Those were my friends.
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But I wasn't able to compromise my family's certain quality of life. I wanted to keep this.
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So it was slow and hard for me to make that transition, but I didn't do it until
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I had a platform built enough that those first few years, I did have an income. I was able to
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make enough from the business until it grew so fast that I needed so much more needed to come in.
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The living in the apartment piece and doing all that, there was actually a couple years
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into that process, maybe like two years. I'm with you on that. So I'm actually going to that very
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process now. I put everything, I quit everything, gave away everything and starting a new one.
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Unfortunately, or fortunately, this podcast somehow became quite popular. So it's getting
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in the way of my burning everything to the ground. But in that, it's a source of joy.
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But the main thing I'm after is the similar project as you is building a business.
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This sense of joy. So this, this is the point I want to drive home right now, right now.
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Because when I say burnt, I learned that burning the bridges works because
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that's how I had to succeed when I was earlier. The bridges weren't burnt. They didn't exist.
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There was no couch to go home to. There was no, there was no fallback plan.
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And it forced me and gave me the confidence to know that I can pull it off.
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But I don't encourage people because there's so much out there of this hustle porn and other stuff
link |
going, just grind, just go after it, get in and start your, like, you'll get there. And it's
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all about the output to make money, to be somebody, to do this. And I'll tell you what,
link |
that is some short term motivation right there. I feel like dropping a few swear words, but
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You're always welcome.
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We've already done a few. So we'll, we'll bounce it out. That is short term.
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That is not going to keep you going. This neat, if you're going to go that approach,
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it needs to be because this is your North Star. There's going to be so much hard work.
link |
There's going to be years of just pushing through where your quest,
link |
not only is everybody around you questioning you and your family's questioning you,
link |
you're questioning yourself going, man, I don't know if I can pull this off.
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You're going to be stressed. You're going to be pulled to the max.
link |
If somebody comes up to me and says, should I start a business? I'm going to say no.
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And oh, you're supposed to motivate me. If you need me to motivate you,
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this is the wrong damn approach for you. This is going to be hard. This is going to be harder
link |
than you expect even with me telling you this. And so it better damn well be worth it.
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This better be your North fucking star. This better live and be a way for you to be able to
link |
articulate or realize those values that you want to live. This isn't something to make money.
link |
This is a way for you to live the life and be able to share the values that you have with the world.
link |
And that's what it is. And if you don't have that, which is going to give you joy,
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then freaking walk away. This is not some way to make some money and be known.
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I mean, this includes both like simple day to day joy and also deep meaning,
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the whole thing. And then that allows you to overcome all the pain along the way.
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But I got to say, I mean, it's a difficult thing because you run a business.
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This podcast and a lot of things I do research wise is full of joy, but it's simple.
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Running a business is hard. So it's something that I'm very hesitant about
link |
in that almost push back a little bit. I think if I do get the guts to start the business,
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it will not be because I'm not choosing a more joyful life because I'm already truly happy.
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The reason I'll choose is because I just can't help it. I've always had this dream
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and I know it's going to lead to suffering and I know it's going to be a life that has less
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happiness in it. As sad as this to say. But it won't be. It won't be less happiness.
link |
Because we talk about this cup and where you choose to pour it and what you choose to do with it.
link |
And when you look back on things, the things that are going to give you the most joy,
link |
the most proud, the things that are going to stand out in your life that you really remember
link |
are going to be those days. And those years you struggle, you're going to look back on
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10 years later and go, fuck, those were the glory days. Those were the glory days.
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Yeah. And it won't feel like it at the time. Yeah. It's so weird. That's what life's made of.
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And so this is your, this is your opportunity. You feel that. So right now you got this when
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you think about it. You got this little thing twisting up in your gut, right? It's like,
link |
it's a mixture of anxiety and fear as well as excitement. And that is, that's your signal
link |
that this is your opportunity for that personal growth to challenge yourself. This is your
link |
going for a run or working out in the heat. It's, it's those things. It is your opportunity to go
link |
that maybe it even fails. Maybe it even fails. But by turning into that, you're going to learn
link |
so much and it's going to make you so much better. And it's the path that you should take when you
link |
have this stuff rolling around in there. And I don't, it could just be a hard conversation with
link |
your partner or your boss. It could be taking on a project that, you know, the, you know, the,
link |
your bosses thrown out to the team and you're like, I'm going to hide in the back. I don't want that
link |
one. And it's like, maybe, maybe you do. Maybe it's going back to school. Maybe it's making that
link |
career move that you always wanted, but you're just a, you're just afraid of all these things
link |
are your opportunity for you to turn into that. It is your workout. It is your practice. Because
link |
if you don't, you'll get soft and who knows what's coming and you're not going to be ready for it.
link |
And it's going to run right over the top of you because you're going to be weak. You're going
link |
to be soft. There's some aspect in which choosing that hard path is actually the way to arrive at
link |
the richest kind of happiness. Like the, the, the greatest fulfillment. That's the funny thing about
link |
just the, but just make sure you're filling the cup as you're going through it. So that's,
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that's the part to figure out, right? Sure. Well, life is short anyway. Eventually,
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eventually the cup will be empty. So maybe time the refilling of the cup correctly. So you maximize
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the little time you got. Let me talk to you about strength a little bit. First, high level, what
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are the differences in the different disciplines of strength? So powerlifting we talked about,
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maybe just to clarify for people, powerlifting, Olympic lifting, just regular gym fitness,
link |
bodybuilding, doing curls in front of the mirror for hours like I do. What's, what's the difference
link |
between all of these? Oh, and also strongman. Everyone of those as far as the athletic disciplines
link |
are different qualities. So we want to think about things as terms of quality. So there's strength,
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there's power, there's endurance, there's the ability to be coordinated and athletic. There's
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all these things and they're different, they're different qualities. So your training as it relates
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to that is how you cycle in the development of those qualities. What we want to think about is
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there's a lot of different frames of thought, some very classical, maybe not classical Russian
link |
approach, because there's a lot of different approach from the Eastern block. But one of the
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ones is developing all the qualities at once, you know, focusing on building those. More of a
link |
periodization effect would be focusing on one quality at a time or one quality while maintaining
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other qualities and then shifting that around. So it's just going to be a little different based
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on what the output is and what the desired. So like powerlifting is actually, power is the wrong
link |
word, there's actually no power in it, it's just brute, it's strength, application of force.
link |
So Olympic lifting would actually be a better name for powerlifting,
link |
because that is more explosive development. There's strongman is again, now we're getting
link |
a little bit more athletic, it's equipment based on the implements and stuff that are used,
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how fast you can move your feet and run mixed with more endurance, but still very strength
link |
focused. And there's some things with strongman that is straight, like each one of these is very
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also focused on different genetic dispositions. So actually, if you look at the history of sports,
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you'll find that they're a lot of times based on different populations. And that sounds like
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it's very on PC, but like Highland games, they've got deep deeper hip sockets that are shallow.
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So you're going to see a lot of short hip hinge movements like the, the caber toss and things
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like that. Muay Thai wrestling, they've got a completely different hip joint. And so strongman
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itself is going to be for very large frame individuals. If you're not well over six foot
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and a large person, you're probably not going to perform well. Very few people at sub six foot
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have ever done well at strongman just because it's, it's leverage based, right? Olympic lifting.
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We see consistently in Europe, the, the history tells us a high level of hip
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and back issues because of the depth that that hip socket has to go in to be able to
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complete that lift. And so you're going to see issues with populations that don't have the
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ability to do that. So, so we've talked a little bit about training as well as disposition.
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Yeah. So, and also cross head to that, that's more like strongman, but for a wider variety of
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bodies, I suppose. Yep. And definitely more metabolic conditioning focus than the, than
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the strength aspect of it. And, and conditioning is an interesting thing too. So that quality,
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in my opinion, can be developed a lot faster, but kind of peaks much faster as well. So
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where strength, we can continue to add and add and add over time. So it's, for me, like for
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conditioning with any strength athlete, I don't like to spend as much time on that. So I'll cycle
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the conditioning work for our strength athletes and then taper that off leading into meat. So the
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more metabolic work that means the more capacity in strength training that you can accomplish
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which is the goal and recover from. But then as we lead to a competition, we want to spend more
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time on recovering from that. So we have to pull things out. So we'd pull out less. So like typical
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approach would be like taking a six week cycle for conditioning and ramping, ramping up over
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three weeks periods time, then dropping back down again, and ramping up and being slightly offset
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by like a week or two from your strength peaks. So that you've actually tapered the week prior
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in your conditioning work to your strength work. But that way we're not hitting conditioning hard
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all the time, which is a common misstep that people make is going, well, I need conditioning. So
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they just hammer that at a base level over the top instead of cycling that.
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If we talk about powerlifting in terms of regimen,
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in terms of exercise, in terms of the process, the wood consistent with what,
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is there something to be said about general qualities of the consistency of the regimen
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required to get strong? Yes. So let's talk about some training principles as a whole.
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And this will, I think this will break the down what you're, what you're wanting. The more work
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that we can fit into a given time, the more progress we're going to make. But that doesn't
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mean doing the max amount of work possible at any given time. So we know that we're always to,
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to accomplish more, we're always going to have more. And there's a certain seemingly that you're
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going to hit that you're not going to be able to add more. So you want to start and get the most
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amount of results that you can with the least amount of work, because you're going to have to do it
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again, like this stair step over and over year, decade, so on. So when people, this is a big
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miss, people got they look at a Chico program from Russia or so on, and they go, I'm going to follow
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this. And it's like, that was specifically written for somebody with 20 years of experience,
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that's already built the capacities to be at that level. So it's all about building that work
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capacity. So how much work can you give in a given time? So now we want to look at some research,
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is it relates to injuries, because injuries are going to be a big driver over time of what
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holds you back. So when we talk consistency, training hard for three years, five years,
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it's going to be really good. But what we find is a lot of people train really hard for nine months,
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have to slow back for a month, get back into it, then miss another week, because and so on,
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they're always like this little nagging, that little nagging. And so it's pretty clear in the
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research, we want to, we're looking at when we're stair stepping this stuff, we're looking at acute
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and chronic loading. So some fancy words for average and like what's happening right now. So
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this given week would be our acute, chronic would be what is our average loading, let's say over
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the last six months. Okay, so the more that we can move the chronic loading up, the more work
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we're getting done on as a whole over time, we're going to get stronger. The way that we build the
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capacity to do that is having spikes in acute loading. Okay. Now, the, as we do this, the,
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the acute loading, if it spikes more than 10, maybe 15% from what the chronic loading has been,
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that accounts for 80% of injuries out there. So it's not actually the movement quality or this
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misstep or the other. It usually happens about four or five, six weeks later. It's like, oh,
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this nagging, and then it gets worse. And then now you got to, you got to do some rehab, your
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training sessions aren't as good and so on. So now we're starting to look at this. Okay. It's like,
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I want to do the, I want to do the least amount of work where I can still progress. I want to be
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able to have spikes in my weekly demand that don't go above 10 to 15% of what I've been averaging
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for the last month. But every time I do a spike, my, my average goes up, right? Boom, boom, boom.
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And then that becomes very particular also when you take, when you do take plan time off. So a lot
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of people, uh, training session, maybe they're doing a five week block with a, a, a D load week,
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or you go on vacation for a week, or any of those things that were a downward, what does that do
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to your average and chronic loading? It brings it down. And then what does the person want to do
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when they come back? Make up for it. Now they have a huge spike above five weeks later, we're
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dealing with, oh, his elbow, this wrist, whatever's kind of bothering me. And now you're not performing
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as much. So these are some really fundamental pieces of, of, of training. And then now we can
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start overlaying the qualities that we're trying to develop that we were talking about earlier. So
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now it's, let's talk about my deadlift, my 1000 pound deadlift. We'll talk about the training
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cycles for both the 1000, uh, deadlift and squat. So backing up a year out from the deadlift,
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knowing I was training at the time, heavy deadlifts once a week. And usually it was two of those
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sessions a month were really heavy and the others weren't. And it's like, okay, how can we get this
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up to where I'm deadlifting twice a week? Because that's where I want to be, uh, to be able to
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accomplish this. I need to be loading about that much with frequency, with a certain volume to
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be able to accomplish this goal. We're not going to go through all the math and stuff like that
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and how that's arrived, but there is math, there is math behind this. And so instead of just like,
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oh, let's start deadlifting twice a week. No. So we start and we take the one session that we've
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got and we split it part of it, take part of it away and put it in the second half of the week.
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So the total volume is still the same. And then, um, we start adding some volume, but I'm doing it
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at a off a block so that the actual load is accumulative load is less because I have less
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range of motion. Okay. And then we start building that closer to the ground, closer to the ground
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and so on. And now we start getting to where I'm almost doing two sessions, full sessions a week.
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And then we start adding a little bit of load. And so at my level, this isn't talking about
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adding another set or another day a week. We're talking like in my squat, it might be one rep
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instead of doing three sets of three at one week, I do two doubles or two triples, then two doubles
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to give me one more rep. That's it. And so we're doing that from one week to the next. And that's
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a cycle training cycle. It might be five, six weeks and then so on. And the next one and slowly
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bringing that average load up. So the last phases of the squat, for example, we took the average
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loading every week. So my of my heavy sets. So once we developed all this stuff over the last
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year to get to this point, now it is taking and going, okay, my average load this week is eight
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reps at 955 pounds. And then the next week, let's get it to 957. 963. And this was pretty
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aggressive. Working up to where my average loading the final that the final was 985 pounds,
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average load for eight to nine reps. And that's why I said, this is the intense part. That was
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why it was the day of was much easier. That week over week is pretty brutal.
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May not sound, oh, you're just squatting. And now let's back up. Let's look at the quality
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development. So a year out from the squat, obviously, they've been working on developing
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axial load capacity, my capacity to withstand load from top to bottom. So I like thinking about
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things in movement vectors. So this vector is an axial loaded vector is the hardest to recover from.
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So what's axial? So like, is deadlift? Are they both?
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They're both. Yep. So a horizontal front to back would be like a row or a press.
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Why is the axial hardest to recover? Because it's the entire body, the entire body, just anything
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that is that taxes the spinal mechanics, I don't, I could tell you my beliefs. It studied, it is.
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Okay. We can just keep the discussion on that the short like that. So we start looking at those
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different vectors that we're training in. So this is why this is important to understand. So I'm
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not just getting into nuance here. So, hey, squatting is going to make me make me jump further
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because it's legs. Well, squatting is an axial load vector. And jumping is a vector this way.
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So actually hip thrust would help with your, your, and this is proven in science,
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with your forward jumping ability. They're both working similar muscles, the glute extension,
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but they're working it in those different platforms. So it's really important to understand
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because people don't understand I'm building my work capacity by doing sled pushes.
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You're not developing your work capacity for squatting.
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Most movements, even ones as holistic as a, as a squat require specialization.
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Yeah. You can't get strong at the squat by doing.
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You're going to have some carryover, right? Obviously. But because taking an untrained
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person that hasn't done it is still not going to do as good as somebody that's
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done nonspecific work, but done work. So, but yes, for the most part.
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To get truly strong, you need to specialize. So, but not all the time. So now we talk about
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qualities. So, and if we specialize in the same thing too long, we stagnate because the body
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adapts to a certain point and just can't make progress. So we wanted to save the actual squatting
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in the pattern with the bar that I was doing for the very end. So starting a year out,
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I started doing work front squatting, like a squat axial loaded pattern and worked on
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maximizing that up. Then I started shifting to doing transformer bar squat. It's this bar I
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developed that actually changed and manipulates spinal mechanics. So I started loading in these
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more forward positions and being able, again, so now I'm getting closer than a front squat,
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but not quite squatting. And then I would start adjusting that bar every training cycle to closer
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to a squat, toaster to a squat till it finally was, right? So what's the difference between a
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front squat and a regular back squat? Like in terms of the stress on the body, the mechanics,
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was there something interesting to be said about? Like how fundamentally different are they?
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So what's interesting, people think about the weight in position to them like, oh, the bar's
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in front of me, the bar's behind me, which is not the case. The bar is above your midfoot.
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The load is above your midfoot. So we're actually manipulating the spine behind the bar. So we're
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causing spinal upriding behind the bar, getting in a more erect position, which is going to change
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the relationship of the hip angle. It's going to change our ability to maintain the spine. It's
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going to change the how much the core comes in, how hard it is to maintain that sternum to diaphragm
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relationship that we talked about. All this stuff starts changing. So the bar stays in the same
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place. Bar's still behind you, but the load moves around. So, but we're actually manipulating the
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spine around the load. It's incredible. We can tailor it to an athlete, which is great when
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you got a seven foot plus tall baseball player or basketball player. That's why we work with all
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these teams. Anyway, so it's like you're taking something and getting closer and closer to it.
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At the same time, we're looking at the quality. So like, I needed to be able to really hold this
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torso position with the weight moving up here. Now, unlike the deadlift, the ability to manage
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this TL position becomes much more challenging. So that was also why I was choosing the transformer
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bar because it actually challenges that more in those big forward positions. I was also working
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on my back strength tremendously to be able to hold the maintained position. So there was a lot of
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like, I chose a bent over rows. So bent over row is a mixed vector. So it's a forward to back. So
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it wouldn't have as much carrier, but it's also got some axial loading component in it as well.
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So we're working on that. And then as it as we get closer and closer to competition,
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I'm developing those strengths, but now I need to start tapering those out. So all of my recovery
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needs can now go into the more specific that I'm actually ramping the load up. So as I'm ramping
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the load on the weight, I'm able to ramp it a lot faster because I'm tapering out the other
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stuff so I can still keep my total load high, but now get it very, very specific.
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Wow. So everything I've done has always been kind of an annual training cycle. And then again,
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this was like a, this was a five year training cycle, but we just kind of walked through the last
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year of each and you can see how these concepts play out in reality. So in the cycling, so this
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is both for you, but also for more recreational strength athletes, let's say there's variety
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injected into the system. You need variety. Yeah. Yeah. Because you will basically stagnate at some
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level, right? So you should always be kind of shifting a little bit. So three to four month
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blocks in general for an average, you know, just a gen pop fitness is pretty good where you're going
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to spend more time maybe in a higher rep range or lower rep range, a little bit more work on
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endurance capacity or maybe some more time. Hey, I'm playing around with boxing or jiu jitsu or
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something like that. Bring that a little bit more to the front, forefront for a while and bring the
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other out, but like mixing, mixing those variables up, but trying to keep the total load the same
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and always kind of like, yeah, do we add a little more? Again, it doesn't have to be major and it
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shouldn't be major. You don't want these big jumps. You don't go, oh my God, let's move. Let's jump
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into squatting every day. You've got to build the capacity to do that. It's simple. What role would
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you say strength has in sports that combines skill and strength? So for me personally, maybe
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I'll just ask it selfishly, which is grappling, wrestling, MMA. Yeah. How about I start with
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baseball? Please. No, I would. Okay. The sport. Okay. Like baseball and golf are two of my favorite
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sports. No, I don't, you don't have to be in shape at all to excel at those sports. Well,
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here's the thing. There we go. We're going to get this argument. Well, I've got a perfect example
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because this is why I sell so many transformer bars into the Major League Baseball. So they get
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these people that come in, these athletes that have been baseball their whole life. It is part
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of the culture. And so they're great athletes. They've got all the skill. The only thing they
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have to do is develop a little bit more resilience so that they don't have the injury. They can push
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their training a little bit more that they can add a little bit more force output and be able to
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recover from it. So the only thing they've got to do is add some training, but there's no training
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culture there. So they don't have any experience, which is why they love the transformer bar because
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they don't have to worry about teaching the technique. We can actually set the bar on a setting
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that makes their squats perfect by queuing all the stuff with actually not having to coach it.
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Because when you're coaching a room full of athletes, it's really hard to teach the nuance
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of all this and not sure that all that. But that's all that they have to do with these players with
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a huge level of skill. So once you reach a certain level of skill, adding strength is the only real
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forward path. So that's the basic simple answer to that. So one of the benefits there being like
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injury prevention, actually. Injury prevention, resilience. Because especially fighting sports,
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you're going to be challenged and thrown and other things happen to you. And the more resilient you
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can make your structures, the better you're going to be. Even a cyclist, mountain biking,
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why would they need it? Why would they need to do upper body training? Take a crash, your shoulders
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gone. You're done. Your career is over unless you've done a little training. Right? So there's
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value in all this stuff. But the resilience is like, that's huge. And then we can overlay strength.
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The people where we miss is this focus on strength when we haven't developed quality
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motor patterns first. So this is a huge thing with children because people want to know what's
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the appropriate training age. I'd had my daughter training before my son because she developed
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movement patterns that have better quality earlier. There's no age because it's going to be very
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dependent on the individual. There's no point in having adaptation if we don't have the right
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thing to adapt to yet. And that applies to general movement, but also the sport. You're
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saying the skills should be developed first and the strength applied on top of that.
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Maybe you can educate me, but I actually quit lifting and powerlifting for a long time
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after I started judo, jiu jitsu, grappling, all this sort of combat sports. Because I found
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that it was preventing me from relaxing my body enough to load in the skill.
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So this isn't a problem with the training. This is a problem with you. So this is actually
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really, really important. The first product I ever released was a loadable mace, a swinging mace.
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And because every powerlifter in body, well, not every, but most serious powerlifters and body
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builders like shoulders mobility is pretty limited. And most of them really, really struggle with this.
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The problem is they've been taught to have tension all the time. And that's not good. So when we
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talk about the joint positions that we were talking about earlier and having those and the
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muscles and the right length and tension relationship, athleticism is the speed to relaxation
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because the counter is speed to, to speed to contraction, float like a butterfly, sting like
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a bee, right? And so what a mace can do is use that because this ties back into a developmental
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kinesiology because a lot of like reset patterns are getting back into these basic movements,
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but it's as much about relaxation as it is contraction. Okay. So a mace, we have this weight
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on a big long lever. So if I grab a kettlebell and it's the same movement as a kettlebell halo,
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it is the same movement as a kettlebell halo. But here in the halo, I'm on the whole time.
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With the mace at the proper length, with the right distribution, you cannot do the movement.
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You could not move force your way through it. The only way that you can accomplish that
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is by relaxing. And then now we, now we can contract all the muscles related around
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that shoulder girdle all at once. We're working on off, on off, on off with moving and contracting.
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And now, so what happens a lot of times as we, you know, this stiffness and tightness happens,
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if we're in poor positions, we start using stabilizer muscles to do the movement. And then
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that's where this stiffness come from. So it means that in some of whatever training that you're
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doing, there's a deficit in the movement quality. Okay. Or there's a deficit in the training program
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and you're not recovering from an 80% of the time, that's the right answer, right? But yeah,
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that's where the, where the gap is and learning how to relax. And the way a lot of the exercises
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are taught and have been taught for a long time, which is why there's a big gap. And this is why
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both clinical rehab and all these other components are mixed in my philosophy and what I'm trying
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to do with Kabuki strength, because I'm looking at holistic movement. I'm not looking at power
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lifting. Base movements are what I want to load and be able to assess on. But this affects all
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sports, all activities, and strength doesn't have to be that. I mean, I, I'm, I'm freaking a
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thousand pound squatter and deadlifter. If you, if you watch any of my videos where I do like
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complete quad fallbacks, I don't stretch at all. I can usually get close to a full split like if I
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want to. What? No, I did not see those videos. Okay. That's, it's hard to believe. Wow, okay.
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Well, actually, I do. I just did one recently, a quad fallback with my, with my mace loaded way
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out to the end, torsioning on both end of the other. And I do a lot of, I do a lot of weird stuff.
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That's awesome. Okay. Squatting doesn't make your hips tight. Squatting like shit makes your hips
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tight. And so, but there is no perfect world where always our training program isn't quite
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perfect. Our movements isn't necessarily perfect. Like, so you're going to have the needs for this
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stuff. But if you're always have to do some soft tissue work to loosen up the same one
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for that exercise to be able to get a joint in position, there is a problem. And I'm not saying,
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don't do it, do it because I don't want you to have a joint. Like if I can't get my shoulders in
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a position, I can't do overhead presses because I'm going to compromise my spine position. Then
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I'm going to end up with some other problems, right? So go ahead and clean that up so you can
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get in position. But go figure out why it is and fix it. And then maybe next, you know,
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three, four months from now, they're going to get a little something else going on, fix it,
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but go understand the deeper root reason of why. So I'm, I believe I'm the only company
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manufacturing and selling, you know, fascial soft tissue tools. And I'll tell you, I don't want you
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to use them because it's not helping you get to the why, why it was caused in the first place.
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The goal, the goal, the perfect state is not having to use them.
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Reality is you're going to have to use them from time to time because the world's not perfect.
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Yeah. So your discovery is 100% on point. Well, there's another side to combat sports.
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When you're beginning a particular combat sport, strength can be a negative because
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human psychology, because you can get away with a lot when you're stronger.
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Uh huh. Yes, you can.
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So if your mind is strong enough to where you can just turn off that advantage and be a beginner
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truly in a particular art, that's probably the best way to do it.
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But you can get away and then you don't learn.
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Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. It's hard not to use the little
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advantages you have because the jujitsu is a big hit on the ego for, you know, especially guys,
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you know, when like a smaller person just destroys you, dominates you when you can,
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I don't know, deadlift whatever number of pounds. And it's hard not to use that strength to then
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resist the slow, the ultimate destruction by like 120 pound.
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And that's why I recommend developing the skill quality first. But it doesn't mean that you can't.
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I can't. That's right.
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You can still do it. So that don't take it as a like, oh, I can't go that direction.
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That's fine. But understand those things. And then also understand the jujitsu is
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additional load on the body. So you have to, you can't just add it on top.
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You've got to taper back the other, you're going to have to make a, I'm sorry, you may not want
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to hear it, but you're not going to be able to do as much and add that here. Yeah.
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It's a compromise because your total volume still has to be there. And there's not,
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unfortunately, not really a way to measure what the jujitsu volume is with this. So you've got to
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take a look at that. And that's where like measuring like heart rate variability or other
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stuff can be useful. So you can see what is happening from me from a sympathetic versus
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parasympathetic nervous system standpoint.
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Yeah. Making sure your body recovers efficiently and trying to put numbers to it.
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You mentioned Kabuki strength. You run the Kabuki strength lab previously called the
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Elite Performance Center in Oregon. You called it the perfect gym. What makes for the perfect
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strength training gym?
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Where I called it the perfect.
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In a video somewhere I watched.
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Oh man. I mean, that's where my testing grounds for developing all this stuff was through the
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years. And so this is like I said, I started developing relationships with the best developmental
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kinesiologist in the US. The best arguably the best or most well known physical therapist in
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the world. The best spine biomechanist in the world. I started doing continuing education
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with these clinical courses and learning this stuff and going, but how does it work in my world?
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Right. And then I started lecturing with them and all this other stuff, but the lab was like,
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where do we test this stuff? Right. And so let me get to a point. There's three things.
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There's always three things. So to be a success, to achieve success, I believe there's three things
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that really, really come into place. And it's the right methodology, the right tools,
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and the right environment. And so it was all about building that. And so the methodologies came from
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a lot of that different, that gray area interaction of clinical with sports science, right? And then
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the tools I had to start creating and designing. And then the environment is having this, you know,
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focused environment of people that want to do better and push each other and having community
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and culture, right? I end up building these connections, this network, everything that I'm
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doing with my businesses is trying to create that into a scalable fashion. And so I'm building the
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groundwork because to have a system that like, yeah, I had clinicals on site that knew exactly
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what we were doing. And when it's me and a few people in a small team and all this stuff, we're
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all just like easy to manage. And you can see these, there's other models around this. So
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I've been other areas since maybe whenever it was I filmed that video that said that,
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that they have that same, same model. And it's taken probably about a decade usually to develop
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that, you know, and having the right people in this community, they can create this,
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this network and the tool and all this stuff, right? Except they still don't have the best
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tools because kawaki strength didn't exist. But, but, and so out of that was, is essentially
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started building this business and people like, when did you know how all this stuff was connected?
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And I'm like, I don't know, I didn't, I just started creating on the outset, the things that
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worked until finally, I'm like, Oh, I'm recreating a scalable version of this stuff. Here's the
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methodologies and a coaching platform that we can manage clients around the globe and see what's
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working and not based on the scientific principles of training, right? How do we create that into a
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database that now we can train new coaches and they can use those same metrics and tools to
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create programs that are tailored to fit person's individual needs, right? Now, how do we integrate
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that with assessment and clinical care assessment and, and, and all these other pieces. So there's
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a lot of work in that. And so that's where kabuki strength is the genesis. But we have,
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we call our gym, the kabuki strength lab. Literally, people find about our gym in the
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neighborhood. Like, how long have you been here? Why, why do I not know about this? We don't advertise
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our gym at all. So like, that makes no sense. Well, that's because the only reason is to have
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a testing environment for the tools and methodology and having enough people to have
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the culture and fit and to be able to be part of the experiment.
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What about the environment of the, the feel of it, the actual gym? There's a, I don't know,
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a grunginess to it. I recently became a member of Planet Fitness for, for reasons that have to do
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more with the heat in Austin that sometimes they need to put in time in the treadmill.
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I don't like that. I don't have any judgment, honestly. The best gyms I've been in
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are kind of dirty. You walk in and you know that work is to be done. There's not another reason
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to do there. It is the, the environment is tight. There's a big piece of that. I know it's
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studied sociologically, I believe. I just, I just pictured that word too. But, but the intensity,
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when you start growing a space, the intensity drops. And so I, I had that experience when we
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grew, we went from a 4,000 foot to a 9,000 square foot gym at one time. And everybody's like,
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it doesn't feel the same. Like if people are complaining for years, we've shrunk it back
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down whenever down to 3,500 square feet. And it creates that intensity. It creates the closest,
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the connection with the people around you. And then like I said, the grunginess, like you go in,
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you know, the intention when you walk in, that environment creates that tension. But when I
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speak environment, it's not just the, it's not the physical, it's the people. But you know,
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when the gym is a little bit beat up. Yes. It also tells a story, like there's a history to it.
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You could tell that not only is there work to be done, that work has been done here.
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Yes. Like battles have been fought. There's something to that where you're just in a long line of
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people, you know, that fought and won. And we could get into a whole nother space. So there's
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to be a whole nother topic, but that existing energy of a space. I mean, we mentioned offline,
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Joe Rogan, he talks about the same with comedy clubs. There's certain, there's certain clubs
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that just have a history. There's an energy there. You can get all woo, but you know,
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there, it's there. It's a real thing, I think. You walk in and you can feel it.
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And you feel it. You feel it. Yeah. That makes me feel that somehow all of us humans are connected
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in ways that's hard to describe, even the ones who are no longer here. Just the greatness that once
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was is still in the walls, in the space present there. Yeah. And we somehow can plug into that
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energy. Yeah. It's, we go down a, go down a path there. There's something really powerful there.
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You've also mentioned a bunch of cool equipment that you've developed as part of Kabuki Strength.
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Probably a little bit of that has to do with your engineering education, but also just
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generally with the spirit of the innovator that you are. What are some cool, maybe revolutionary
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pieces of equipment that you're particularly proud of or just you've been obsessed with
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recently that you're developing? Yeah. Love to talk about that. So we've got some wild,
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crazy stuff that just came out and is coming out too. So everything that we create and release
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at Kabuki Strength, the industry hasn't seen before. There's stuff that's basic foundational,
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it's been around forever because it works. But there's always more. It could be better.
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And why are we not looking at these things, these foundational things? So when people are coming up
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with novel things, they end up being way different outside the perspective. And I'm coming up with
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things that are way different, that are plays on what we already know works. So we talked about
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the Transformer Bar, the only bar in the world, we can manipulate spinal mechanics.
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Everything for me from a design concept that we develop is all about creating
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products that can rapidly accommodate to the variability of an individual's
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leverages, mobility, and training needs. And that's going to also create and distill down the size
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and scope of space that we need, which is going to continue to be an ongoing thing.
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Check out my Instagram after this, and you'll see I put an entire gym on the bed of my truck
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and went on vacation last week, drove to the desert. And by entire gym, I mean
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squat rack, full complement of our specialty bars, a horizontal and vertical pulley system,
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hand held weights, shoulder, like a complete, an entire gym in product that took up the space,
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the size of this bed, right here. That's incredible. Because of the design scope of what we have.
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So the cool things that there's two other bars that fit our biomechanically sound bar
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bell lines, we talked about the Transformer Bar. The other two are built on this thing I
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called playground physics. So we have these bars with handles that are off,
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off parallel with the axis. So they've been around the market for a long time. One is a
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hex bar or a trap bar. Another one is a, it's a pressing bar with the handles turned as well.
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And both of them suck. They're horrible. Anytime any lifter knows if you pick it up,
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it's going to break your wrist and crush into your face. And it just, it just doesn't feel good
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pressing. But it alleviates the strain on the wrist. So people use it for that reason. And the,
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the, the trap bar, same thing, it's always diving forward in your hand. So it's kind of limited,
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it's also limited in use because you could do a lot more with it. So these bars are really
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cool playground physics. So as soon as the center of rotation is on the same axis as the center of
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mass and the handle is off center, you have, you have a teeter totter. So an a teeter totter has
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a balance point, but it's infinitely perfect. So technically you can never find it. So always
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going to be sitting on one side of the other in a playground. And that's what these bars are designed.
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So you got instability right here. You can't find the center. The bar is always trying to tip in
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your hands on the trap bar. So you can't do carries with it because you're doing forward
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momentum and it wants to, it wants to dip on you, right? The Swiss bar wants to crush your face.
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Well, what do we do? We just make a swing, put center of mass below center of rotation.
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And what does it do? Oh, it always finds center. So, so the handles on the, our pressing bar,
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it's arched so that the handles are above center of rotation. And then, and then every angle instead
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of just being a certain fixed angles, each angle is based on the width, the average width of an
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individual. So the internal and external rotational bias is based of the shoulder is based on the width
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leaving just a little bit left because we talked about the lat being a stabilizer. You still need
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to have a little bit of Q of external rotation to engage that as a stabilizer. Boom. Now all of a
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sudden you have a bar and I kid you not, this is a great story. Major League Baseball, when I
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presented it, every head strength coach for a Major League Baseball team, maybe not every, but
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damn near most of them have bad shoulders. They can't press, they've gotten shoulder surgeries,
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so on. And so we're showing, they love all our stuff and I'm like, hey, I've got this cool prototype
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I want to show you, it's a pressing bar. And they're like, oh, you know, Major League Baseball is a
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little hesitant on pressing because of the dangers for the shoulder. And I can't, I haven't been able
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to take a bar to my chest. I mean, I really love to, it's been five years since I've been able to
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XX train and I'm like, just try it. Like I can't even get a bar to my chest without pain. Like just
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try it. Oh, that feels good. Now the arc makes it actually three inches deeper. So people are
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automatically scared. I can't do that because that's an extra range of motion, right? Like, oh,
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put a plate on there. They're doing it by the time the staffs like they're all standing around. You
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see, like, what's going on? Put two plates on. You can see the, just like, it gets up. How do you
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feel? Like, I feel fine. No pain at all. I did this with five teams with five of the happening
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repeatedly five times that they and everyone of them worked up the two plates and did reps
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varied with zero pain to a three inch range or greater range of motion because what did we do?
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We stacked all the joints and we provided stability at the end that we balanced internal and
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external rotation. I mean, just basic playground physics and it changed the game. Now we get a
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greater range of motion with a greater training effect with the negative stresses removed. Our
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trap bar opened up one side, which there was already some like that out there created. It pops up so
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you can pick up take the weights on and off. It's got a built in jack and then created the high
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handle position which already did everybody uses the high handle on a trap bar. They just don't
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know why they like it. The handle that's on center we offset just a little bit not enough to make a
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difference on the range of motion lift or even notice visibly, but it still has the same effect.
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So both handles now have that. We added the option of different handle sizes based on whatever
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your needs are, even a one that rolls to develop grip and then different widths that you could
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choose from based on whether you're training a teen athlete or a seven foot six NBA player or a
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NFL lineman so that we can accommodate for all these differences. And so and then now it becomes
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the most functional all around bar around because now you can do carries with it. You can do split
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squats with it. You could do curls with it because it goes around the body. You can do overhead
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presses because you don't have a thing that gets in your way and you can flip it up into position.
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You can do bent over rows and not run into your shins. You can do seal rows off of a bench. You
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can do ab rollouts. You could, should I go on? Yeah, so you can use it as like the main bar.
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The best multi purpose bar around. You got a home gym, one bar. Like how do you develop
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totally new equipment like this? I scratch it on paper, maybe weld some cut up and weld up a
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prototype, but usually I just hand the scratched up paper to my engineering manager and that's
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what he says his job is to distill my chicken scratch into something real. And then that team
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picks it up. But in the old days starting out, I just walk out and do it. You talk about engineering,
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I'm actually more, I work more of an artist fashion. It's in my head and I just go create with no
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plans. And so they have to pick that up and actually do the engineering and testing and all
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that. And then we got two other products came out this year, freaking wild. Are you familiar
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training with a flywheel? No, no, it's a flywheel. Maybe. A flywheel is a spinning object
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that creates an inertial mass. Yeah. And then it reverses direction. So whatever you put into it,
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there's ones out there. But ours is the first patent pending that's all everything all in
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one unit. So it's a floor based as well as a horizontal. So you can basically do any pulley
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movement in the world. And now everything that you put into it on a concentric force, it whips
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right back as peak centric load. Gotcha. So there's an accelerating whipping motion.
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Yeah, basically. Yeah. I mean, okay, I have trouble imagining exactly. Many of the things
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you're describing, I suppose have to be experienced, right? Yes. Because there's a magic to it.
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And there's a lot of research they've been around. They're adopted more heavily in Europe,
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quite heavily in Europe, but not as much in the U.S. Because they sell them as a be all end all
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tool, which they're not. They're crazy for what they do. But it's not the, it's another tool. And
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so we have a very high quality unit now that is half the cost of everybody else's because
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the innovation of a movable mount point that you, for them, you have to have
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two pieces of equipment. We have one. So, and then a few other things, better platform to be able
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to do things and that we can do what we call off platform work, which allows us to do movements,
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like punches and standups, things like that. And then I've got a handheld weight coming out next
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month that we can actually play with. So varying the load with it never leaving your hand by changing
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the leverage point. And so what are we, what exercise that we're talking about here?
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Anything that would be a dumbbell or a kettlebell movement. So it functions, it does the function
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of a kettlebell, a dumbbell and what we call a center mass bell, as well as provides variable
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loading within a range. So how can you change, like, how can you change the load? Because load,
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well, we don't actually change the load. We change the torque on the, on the joint that we're working,
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which is the same. That's actually what is creating the force, right? So if I'm doing a front raise,
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it's where this, this downward forces times the distance away, right? Which also then makes
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it no force when I've got at the bottom of the front raise, which is why it's so easy.
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With this, it's like a kettlebell, it's offset, except it has three different handles. But it's
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offset just that a kettlebell, you can't do it because the offset so far, it becomes a wrist
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movement. So ours has three different sizes in the offset just enough, so that you can pick,
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if I put it in a front raise position or curl position, I could put it in outward position.
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And the force is almost what it is at the, at the top, but then I get the top and it's the same
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exact or the curl. So I can actually change the force curve in the movement. And then I can just
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release the pressure a little bit and let it swing into position and keep doing a drop set with
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never letting it down. Yeah. So it's got a really nice texture grip that allows you to hold it in
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different positions. And then the load offset is just enough that it doesn't overpower the wrist.
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And then you got different hand sizes so that you can maximize this relationship and hit
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whatever joint that you're applying. So sounds incredible. It's really freaking awesome because
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you can, because the variable load, now I could go straight from front raises to side raises or rear
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or curl because without like putting it down, because I don't have to put it down. So now my
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time under tension goes through the roof. And by the way, the same effect with a flywheel trainer
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because the variable, whatever you put into it is what it kicks back. So you have an constant
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time under tension because there's no rest points either. So all this stuff is working on
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maximizing time under tension, which anyway, it's cool stuff. Anyway, I get excited.
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Well, let me ask you about another thing you've already mentioned, but I find this really
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interesting, which is barefoot running and your sort of company, Barefoot Athletics,
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BEAR. And the tagline is optimizing the human to ground interface. We've talked about this a
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little bit with the powerlifting. How do you think about the foot ground interface?
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It's interesting that we know that we should train all these parts of our body to be able
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to be stronger, be more resilient. But we think that the foot is different, that we need to package
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it and somehow that that's the science of making it healthy. Where I challenge people,
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think about that. First thing you do in the morning is roll out a bed and put your weight
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lifting belt on and wrap it on tight and wear it till you go to bed at night. Do it with your
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shoulders, your knees, wake up and put some knee wraps on and elbow wraps and see what happens.
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One, you'll get weaker. You'll lose movement capacity and you'll start affecting other areas
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of the body very negatively because they will start picking up the compensation for those joints
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that are not moving properly. This is it. What shoes are for is to protect you from the environment,
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from cuts and abrasions and heat and things like that. But the foot, the mind blowing is like every
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other area of the body. You need to use it and you need to strengthen it and you need to learn
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to control it. That's it. That's all I have to say about the subject. It's that simple,
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but somehow we have been sold entire industries like the orthotics industry.
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It's completely false. Meta analysis of the data shows that orthotics do nothing beyond
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temporary relief from pain over a six, eight week period of time and provide no long term benefit.
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And I can't tell you how many people I've eliminated back or knee or hip pain from working
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on strengthening and controlling the foot and ankle complex. We believe we've villainized and
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said a low arch is a condition that needs fixed. When it really is just controlling the foot and
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ankle complex and how they relate to each other and how we use that, is it like go put on boxing
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gloves in the morning and do that for the next 20 years and see what happens. It's not about finding
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the right shoe that fits because your foot has been deformed. And so I'm not like some wacky
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go like, oh, you got to be barefoot forever or do this. Like, no, I'm just saying, go spend some
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time using it, strengthen it, learn to control it, and it will work better in a shoe. But the whole
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running shoe movement with the raised heel, that was the person that suggested that to Nike way
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back when they were trying to figure out what to do. The reason and he says it's the worst thing
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that he ever did. Because we were coming from an era of people wearing heel shoes, which by the way
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came from stirrups way back in the day, that's where the whole heel came from is to go into
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stirrup, but then it went into fashion. And then the running craze started coming around in the 70s.
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They're, they're starting to push this the general mass population and they realized that they were
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causing injuries and like, what are we going to do? Well, that's because everybody was in this position
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and had a shortened, shortened calf muscle. And it's like, well, to work around, let's just put
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a heel on it so we don't injure them. That's it. And now, because the raised heel, you got to raise
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the toe. And then now with that, if you go stand on something and pull your inner toe in, and in a
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squat position, just reach down and do it, you'll see that you have no control over internal and
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external rotation of your, of your leg, you don't, and or your foot and you actually have to put a
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support in for the arch to be able to passively control those structures. It's just bandaid on
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top of bandaid on top of bandaid. Use it, strengthen it. If you want to wear some shoes,
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because they look good or fancy, I'm like, I have no problem. I mean, I go out on a wife,
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my wife will put on some high heels every now and again. But all I'm saying is use your foot.
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My thousand pound squat, my thousand pound deadlift were done barefoot. I'm not trying to
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sell you shoes. Go do it with no shoe. That's what I've been promoting. I did that for six years,
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and I promoted it. But people ask me like, well, what do I do because my gym requires shoes?
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Okay, where do I go? And, and then I go, well, you know, you could pick up these other finger
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shoes or whatever. And they go, man, my wife won't have sex with me. And I go, I know mine either,
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like, trust me, I'm not making this up. Everybody in that market markets to one segment,
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and they're still missing some gaps, because they, they still have a little bit too narrow
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of a toe box. And if you're lifting, you have the opportunity to really get that splay and
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start working on this stuff better. So I just wanted to create a shoe. These ones are odd
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colored because it's a partnership with Kabuki. Normally we've got a black or a gray, low top,
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high top sticks to the ground for lifting. So we can do that. And very pliable. It's a moccasin.
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It's a modern day moccasin, but looks okay that you can wear it around in other areas if you,
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if you so choose. Like, do you know what the number one healthcare cost in America is?
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What's that? Diabetes, heart disease, cancer, low back pain.
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What do you attribute a low back pain to? Well, it's attributed to a lot of things,
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but inability to control spinal position, which starts happening from some breathing issues.
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It also happens from the foot. So there's a lot of stuff, but everything that I do actually
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focus on improving this. Yeah. So that, and it all starts with the foot.
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This is one thing, like this doesn't affect breathing, but so it does actually affect
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breathing to some actions and spinal stabilization. So the raised heel and toe will make you stride
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further because of just how it operates, but that over stride is a result of opening this. So
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we open the pelvis and diaphragm. Did we talk about that and the impact that that has for
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controlling and spine? Yeah. I think we touched on that. But it's all this stuff plays together.
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So the gait affects that. And so the shoe affects the gait and then so it's all connected.
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All connected. Let me be very purposeful with some conversation here though. We've talked
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about periodization. This was a big gap. So people go, yeah, well, when people started running with
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those, they started having injuries back when the finger company produced those and didn't do the
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education around this very simple concept. You do not walk into the gym if you haven't squatted and
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start squatting 225 from, from Max Rex every week day or every day over day. And that's what people
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did because they weren't told that you need to build the capacity to do this. You go wear these
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and walk around in your office or wherever all day long, your feet are going to hurt.
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They're going to be sore. Do it for 10% of your time. Yeah. Do that for a month, then add some.
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That will build the capacity to do this. And then that's going to start having
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the ability to strengthen, manage the foot. And there's a whole lot of other stuff. I've got videos
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on things that you can do, buy whatever you want, or just, just spend some time out of them.
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Like that's all that I want people to do because it is so simple and it has such a
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profound impact. Yeah, it does. I, what I did, I noticed when you walked, when I walked in,
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was like, Oh, hey, you're spending some time without the, without shoes on.
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Well, what I did, I think it's already now two years ago and I was doing a lot of running,
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I do like a 10 mile run, I would take my shoes off for the last like half mile and I run like
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that. And that was for me really helpful to ensure that I have proper form, form that minimizes pain
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on the way I run. I still like shoes. I benefit a lot from shoes, the protection they provide, but
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it's for running we're referring to, especially trail running and so on.
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And in the city, when there's glass and all those kinds of things, but it's really important to have
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minimal sort of protection on your feet. For me, at least it was to figure out the ways that my form,
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basic movement and like the positioning in the foot, the impact of the foot and everything,
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you know, the lower leg, the entirety of the torso really, how it's improperly positioned
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in terms for the objective of minimizing pain. And the barefoot running really helped fix that
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for me, because I figured out that I need to take shorter steps, more frequent, you know,
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all those kinds of things. And that really helps you figure that out.
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Like, let's be realists about stuff. Like, spend some time using it, strengthen it. And I've got
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some great ways to do that and learn how to do that. So, yeah.
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What is a good diet for strength development? I've just to give you some context, I've been
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eating mostly meat, not for strength, mostly for mental performance. I just enjoy it.
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Yes, you need to have a base level of protein building blocks for tissue, right? We need to
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have enough fats to be able to have hormones work and key processes in the body. We need to have,
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well, you don't need to have, from a performance aspect, carbohydrates necessarily,
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because the other ones can convert into injury sources. But for a performance athlete,
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carbohydrates can be very beneficial as well. So, I look at it as you want, you need a base
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level fats, you need a base level of proteins, and then you adjust the carbohydrate intake
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based on the needs. I'm not anti carbohydrate by any means, because a lot of people, well,
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they look at me now when they see like how lean I am, and they jump to a conclusion,
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you must be keto, you must be carnivore, you must be whatever. And it's like,
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so losing and gaining weight is simply eating less or eating more. I mean, it,
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and we get so complicated. Oh, that my fat, they're like, what's your fasting window? If I'm,
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if I'm doing fasting, it's just because it works with my environment. Sometimes I do it,
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sometimes I don't. All that does is control how much calories that you take, big success with
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keto and carnivore diets. It's hard to eat a lot and put on weight with those diets. Protein
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actually has a thermogenic effect. And so you have to have a massive amount of fats if you have a
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only meat diet, because you can literally starve to death. There's a, there's a show where they
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put people out in the wilderness. And this guy, the one that won one of the ones I looked at,
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they threw him weight like up in the past a lot, you know, out the way out there,
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there was nothing, but he somehow got a caribou and killed it. And he still lost a pound a day
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for 30 days with the caribou, because his fat was stolen by a, and he could eat all the meat he
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wanted. And then he almost got pulled because his weight loss, right? But that isn't actually a
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performance. So those type keto and carnivore are not performance diets. So they're not going to
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be as effective at supplying the energy needs for high capacity training. So don't get me wrong,
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you can do training, but like, you can be a successful like elite athlete with a, with a vegan
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diet, but it's not as easy to do it with other diets. So on your missing some base nutrients,
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so many nutrients and meat, I believe having greens in your diet is really beneficial,
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lots of research, but there's people in the other worlds that argue that you don't need them, but
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they help clear organs, provide micronutrients, all this sort of stuff. So I eat simply a whole
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well rounded diet and I've gone from, I can go from 285 pounds, squatting a ton of weight
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to eating less and dropping all the way down to, you know, seven, eight percent body fat with vein
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standing out everywhere without a tissue on me, just with amazing, great tasting food.
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To lose weight or be healthy does not mean that you need to eat flavorless, bland food.
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So that's the main point I try to get across.
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It's eat less to lose weight, eat more to gain weight. Yep. Make sure that you've got enough
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protein, make sure that you've got your micronutrients covered, which is going to cover by eating real
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food. Don't go low fat, no fat. If you want a performance, don't go no carb, but if it works
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any of those things. So diet approach, when you look at diets, understand that they're,
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how aggressive they are. So like keto can make you lose a lot of weight, carnivore can make you
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lose a lot of weight. A lot of that upfront is actually dropping glycogen stores. So you're
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actually just reducing water in your muscle and fat tissue, which is why it isn't as great for a
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performance diet. But understand that every diet also has a level of discipline and does it fit
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your lifestyle. So I suggest people don't find a diet. You need to find a lifestyle because
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that's what's sustainable. I hate the word diet to begin with. What behaviors are sustainable?
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And then do that. And then over time, the things you'll get to where you need to get.
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Diet itself, just by the name of it, is not sustainable because it is a short term thing
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to get somewhere. Yeah. I tend to try to measure it because I definitely have a love hate relationship
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with food. I tend to look back and say, by following this particular protocol, lifestyle,
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whatever, what was the level of happiness? Yes. So not weight loss or weight gain or all those
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kinds of things. It's the entirety of the picture, productivity, just feeling good throughout the
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day, socially also interacting with people because so much of human connection, like I
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mentioned before, is over food. And if you're going to limit yourself in that regard, you're
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limiting a certain fundamental aspect of life. A number of years ago, I did like 20 to 22 hour
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fasts every day. And I'm like, well, this doesn't work. I can't do business lunches and stuff like
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that. So when I was in my fasting thing, I went to a 16 so I could have a light lunch just for the
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social aspect of it and perform a little perform that. And then that's why the typical bodybuilding,
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like the eight meal a day diet has never worked for me because I've always been a very bit like
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trying to fit that between meetings and other stuff. What that diet provides is it just,
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do you get less bloat and distention of a larger meal? But at the end of the day,
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you get the same exact results. Pick a lifestyle, live that you can have really great tasting food.
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And that to me is the same thing. And this is why I'm like really hitting this point because
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also with the dieting and like the approach like, oh, I'm going to do this and people pick
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these chicken and broccoli recipes and guess what, you're going to break. If you do not enjoy it,
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you will break. So it is a very important point. Well, I also slightly push back or maybe to
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elaborate. If you don't enjoy moderation, for me, particularly, I have trouble moderating
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certain things, most foods, I would say. So my source of happiness comes with foods,
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even if they're bland, the ones that can enjoy but enjoy moderation. So there's,
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I mean, I enjoy every piece of food. So it's like, if you can enjoy the full lifestyle,
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it's not just the particular experience, but like the full journey.
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Does it fit your lifestyle? Yeah.
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So let me ask about a complicated topic that's sometimes a bit controversial,
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which is steroids and maybe TRT, testosterone replacement therapy. What role does that play
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in strength training? All right, we're going to go there.
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Yeah, but it's an important discussion to have. I think that it's something that I can be more
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transparent on. In my past, I wasn't able to do to the career that I had. So just covering that
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stuff in a public forum when you're highly looked at being an executive for recruiting and other
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stuff, like it was an area I had to just kind of pass on, right? Now, I've used steroids.
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I've used them since I was 33. And I basically just used TRT now after my big squat. So for
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10 years, I used them. And there's some interesting components to this. So one is just the gray area
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of what we call performance enhancing supplements. So performance was a PEDs. That the line of what
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defines a PED is ever shifting. And it's shifting based on society norms, cultural norms, government
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bonding agencies, all these sorts of stuff. So I'm not making excuses here. So I just want to
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elaborate before I actually start digging into the details here. Because performance enhancing,
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I could take sodium bicarbonate and enhance my ability to perform deadlifts for reps. Guess
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what? I did that for my Guinness World Record for deadlifts in a minute. People do it for rowing
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or other, they use high capacity type stuff. It is performance enhancing. It is a chemical.
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It is baking soda. All right? They're not able to make it illegal because everybody eats bread,
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not everyone. And so it's a little hard to test for. No matter what you do at any level,
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so that's an extreme example. But other examples, you're drinking an energy drink in that cup there
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a little while ago. And in America, you can get an energy drink with 240 milligrams of caffeine
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in it. In Canada, that's too dangerous. You can only get 140. But you can go buy a Fedra.
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And a Fedra is illegal in America. And so these things bounce back and forth all the time.
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I could take Yohembi. And in Europe or Australia, it is a drug and classified in America. It is not.
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It's an herbal root and a lot high actually, one of my supplements except for the overseas
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version. Anyway, the point I'm getting is no matter what you do at some point,
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there's by someone's standards, you are cheating. And because it is, you're taking something that
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but you could work around these things with nutritional ways or other ways versus taking
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a chemical strip. And there's a whole lots of ways to do this. But it's like, oh, no,
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it's steroids. It's not, it's injectable. It's not. Well, somewhere there's a culture or a person
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that will say you're cheating no matter what. So it's a self defined, you need to define it
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for yourself unless you're competing in an organization that has testing, then it's a
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straight ethical thing. And it's either right or wrong, in my opinion. That's kind of the
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overall dilemma of it is if you want to see what you're totally capable of, you have to decide
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yourself what's okay or not to that level. There is no, there is no body that can say
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something yes or no. Yeah, when there's an event like the Olympics, maybe then you have a standard
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that you're all trying to adhere to. And then it makes sense to keep a certain like, to be within,
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there's an ethical. There's not. So yeah, I'm not talking about that. I'm agreeing to compete in
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this by these, by these rules. Yeah, but when you're trying to maximize your own performance,
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whatever that journey is, whatever that goal is, that's a different story. And it's not,
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it's not easy to figure that out. You go up, you're just like dancing around the subject,
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whatever. Well, guess what? I've got, I've got a prescription for growth hormone and testosterone.
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It's legal for me to take. And you know what, a lot of the people that are in front of the camera
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in the media, politicians and news people and the people that are there saying the, the no drug stuff,
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they're going to anti agent clinics to look better. And they have a prescription for growth
link |
hormone and testosterone themselves. But in their eyes, it's okay. It is a prescription from their
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doctor because they have the money to do it. So it's legal. And it's fine. If I is interesting
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in Oregon, anybody and I don't know what other states over the age of 16 can without parents
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permission, by the way, walk into a gender clinic and as a female and get a prescription for testosterone.
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But as an athlete, if I've got low testosterone, I am so low, I've got depression, I can't have sex
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with my wife. It's affecting my quality of life. I will have to fight tooth and nail to get testosterone
link |
just as a prescription. And then I will get kicked out of my organization for competing.
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Like, so you understand how gray this stuff gets. Do you think the stigma on testosterone
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is the reason we're not having like a healthy conversation about when it's proper? Like,
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what are the proper uses of testosterone in an athlete's life and just the regular human life?
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Yeah, absolutely. And it's just, it's like anything. It's like I said, it is lines that
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we pick and draw. Anytime you put that out there, people are going to have different opinions
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of where those lines are. So now when it comes to strength, here's an interesting thing. In
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powerlifting, there's tested federations and non tested federations. So we can literally look at
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the statistical data and actually find out what do steroids do. And so it's pretty clear
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that steroids provide about a 10% increase in strength on average over not. Now that does take
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out the fact that steroids will put you in, allow you to put on more mass, so you'll go up a weight
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class a lot of times. So as a whole, you could definitely lift more probably than the 10% over
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time, right? And then we think about steroids as the ability to just put on muscle. And here's
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where things get a little interesting, even with people that use steroids is not understanding
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the neurological impacts that steroids have. Because you could take some steroids right now
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and be stronger in 10 minutes. That's clearly not done anything from a physiology standpoint
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to make you stronger. But we have tapped in neurologically to elicit those gains. And
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there's a whole lot that happens neurologically. How much science is there in terms of all the
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different ways you could take steroids, which kinds of steroids, the timing, the dose, all of
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those things to develop the neurological, the physical, the skeletal. You've talked with
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such depth about the science of strength building in terms of form, in terms of the equipment that
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you use. It seems like a component, the use of steroids should be an equal level of scientific
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rigor when applying them. It is. Now, the research is harder to get because of what it is. But there
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is a lot of research that was done when they were legal. So they were legal up and through the,
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through I think the mid 80s. And so a lot of the classical high benefit to low risk steroids were
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studied. And then since then, there's a lot of designer steroids or new steroids that have come
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up that don't have a lot of research around safety and risk and things of that nature. And we can't
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do that because of the legality around these things. But some of the stuff on the neurological
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function is really just understanding how that chemical structure works and what it's doing to
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the neurotransmitters, what it's doing. And so some of it is really talking to people that have
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experience with it. And the other is understanding those structures and what they do. The neurological
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component, I think, is more interesting than most because the most steroids act through increasing
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muscle protein synthesis. That's how you add more muscle is they have an anti catabolic effect.
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And they have a muscle protein synthesis enhancing effect. So it reduces the amount of muscle that
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you waste and increases the amount of muscle that you put on. But the neurological component
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is tremendously valuable for what it can do for your training workout. Like if I handle more load
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over time, I'm going to make more progress. If I can actually just stimulate more neurological
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effects for a specific event, it's going to have an impact, right? But there's other ways that you
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can tap into this too, things that you can tap into mentally with great practice with meditation
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and other stuff that will have the same effect. People probably think I'm over speaking, especially
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steroid users that are listening to this, okay, I'm talking out my ass, but I'm not.
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Because I have experience with this stuff on both ends. And some of those areas, a lot of people
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don't have the experience with that. What I've kind of heard from people is the confidence that
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comes with steroids. It feels like, not to call it placebo, but it seems like the psychological
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benefits of steroids is huge. And that you feel like there's a confidence that seems to be coupled
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with the actual biological and chemical effects. I have actually a neurological condition. So I
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actually don't feel a lot of that stuff that people, because there are certain steroids that
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people will like, your very extreme ones that would make somebody bite someone's ear off in a
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fight, for example. Yeah. Almost like aggression. And they'll literally do nothing. I'm always just
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chilling. They don't like that effect. But neurologically, they're still having those
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effects, but I don't get those feels that other people have from those. But yes, there's that
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immediate boost in aggression and a confidence and stuff that come with a lot of those ones that deal
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on the neurological. Overall, a good sense of well being just like from being on testosterone,
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like it's going to affect your mood. And it's interesting. So testosterone replacement therapy,
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if we walk down that path now and kind of switch gears, we find that men today have declining
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testosterone over what has historically been in the past. So right now, I think a 35 year old
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testosterone is shown to be about half what it was just 50 years ago. So I don't know if we could
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argue the point, we don't really have the science to validate any of it. But it could be society as
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far as the impact that it's having on the mental health. For men, it could be the the estrogens
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floating around the water from all the chemicals and birth control and all this sort of stuff could
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be a lot of things. But it is the fact that average testosterone is significantly lower.
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And that is going to end up affecting life quality of life as well as your longevity,
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because it will affect those things. But on the other end, steroids and TRT, particularly
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steroids come with a lot of negative health benefits, not benefits, a lot of negative health
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ramifications. And so, you know, if I knew what I know now, I don't know that I would have gone
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that path. I didn't I didn't tell I was 33, which is kind of an outlier for a strength athlete.
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I was I was a four times body weight deadlifter 800 plus pounds at 198. It's pretty dang strong
link |
before I went down that path. And that's because I wanted to see what I was capable of. But I was
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reaching a point that it was either I need to do that or not. My testosterone, my natural
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testosterone levels were actually, I think below 300 is actually the threshold. So I was being told
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to go on TRT for the last couple years, probably just because I was pushing so hard and the stress
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level was driving my test down. So it was self imposed, more than likely. But I put it off because
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I wanted to set all the drug free records. And I set the ones that I wanted. And then it was 33.
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I'm, you know, entering the age category. And I'm like, I'm going to go on TRT. I did not feel
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like I should be with TRT. Personally, my ethical standard was I shouldn't be competing in tested
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events anymore. There are federations that will allow you with your, you show up with your script
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and you do your test and you're below a certain level, but you're still on. But for me, I'm like,
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that's not okay. So I'm like, I may as well at this point use steroids. But since then, you know,
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understanding all those ramifications, you know, I might not have gone down that route quite so
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fast and easily. But I continued because I also have a lot of resources that other people don't
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in being able to assess and understand and put things in place to mitigate that. So you need to
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be, and the other thing is once you go on, it's literally a decision for life. Not in this,
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but realistically is because your, your quality of life, your feeling is going to be enhanced
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quite a bit. And you're not going to want to go back. And if you go back, it's going to be less
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than it was before. That's how the endocrine system works. There are ways to try to recover and
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bring that up, but it might be a while. And if you've been on for a while, it definitely is not
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an option. So those are big things that people need to understand that you're going to have some
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things in there. And even TRT has some potential, especially at higher levels, that it's going to,
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you know, increase the risk for prostate cancer. It's going to potentially cause some
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hypertrophy of the left ventricle of the heart and some potential plaque buildup of some of
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those key arteries around there that's going to have an impact on your cardiovascular health.
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There's things that you can do again, but everything is like the shoe story, right? Where
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I'm anti, anti shoe, but I'm going, well, we could put band aids on this. Yeah. So it's
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there, but there's a quality of life that comes with it, the increase in quality of life. And
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if you do it correctly, I think for me, for me, I definitely would not live without TRT,
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even with knowing what I know now at this age and the quality of life and being able to be there,
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have the energy, the recovery. That's a big thing. We're all this though. I talked about
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muscle protein synthesis and anti catabolism as being big drivers, but recovery is the other big
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aspect that they offer, probably as a result of those, but those are going to be the big
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enhancement. So just doing steroids, steroids is going to increase all the other stuff that you
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do. So if you have good training, you have good diet, good quality of sleep, like all this other
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stuff, then you can take advantage of that, but you could choose steroids and nobody would know.
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And honestly, you go down to 24 hour fitness and you'll see a bunch of late 19 to 21 year old
link |
kids that are all kind of red and 150 pounds that don't look like anything. And a bunch of them
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will be using steroids because they're not like, so it's not going to make a champion.
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Like you said, 10% at most.
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Guess what? I was already at an elite level. I was one of the best in the world
link |
before I started using. It doesn't do that. It does a 10% increase at best. And that's proven
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in the statistics, which is interesting because most people don't know this. The data is right
link |
there. Yeah. And that's why I'm often saddened by maybe the negative view of somebody like
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Lance Armstrong, who was one of the greatest athletes in history.
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And everybody else that he was competing against, I'm sorry. I hate to blow anybody's
link |
bubble, but regardless of I told you my ethical pieces with saying that you're going to be at
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something at an elite level, you look at a lot of those big figures out there.
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When their income in your life relies on it, you're going to push those limits.
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So maybe my ethical would change if I was in that position too, because here's the thing
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what I believe. Someone is, I think people should avoid steroids. TRT,
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probably something worth taking a look at what your levels are when you're in the 35 to 45 range
link |
and see what decision you decide to make from there. And that's a decision that you make for
link |
the rest of your life. The only times that you should be taking a look at steroids is if it's
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funding your life, it's creating that it is your job and it's doing, honestly, it was for me.
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So was it the only thing? No. No. If you want to get into neurology, neurotransmitters and alcohol,
link |
there's a really interesting discussion on performance enhancement. So when I lift heavy,
link |
and so I always promote it, not more than a drink or two once or twice a month is what
link |
all I'm talking about when I'm saying this. What's the timing of the drink that we're talking about?
link |
It's about three to five minutes before. Yes. And then we're talking about beer.
link |
It doesn't matter the source. So shots are the easiest. You want something that is not going
link |
to have some sort of regurgitory effect or bloating effect or anything like that. But you
link |
want to have the quick hit of energy. So it's a preferential energy source moves above ketones,
link |
carbs, everything at seven calories per gram. But then there's some really interesting things
link |
that happen. Spike's blood pressure, which is going to make weights feel lighter. So when you're
link |
in your early 20s and you're trying to hit up some attractive person at the bar and you're with
link |
your buddies and you're like, ah, you know, and you got second guess. Oh, should I? And they go,
link |
have a shot of liquid courage. And you have one. And all of a sudden, the second thoughts,
link |
the second guessing, all that drops away. Like you're focused in the moment. And you walk over
link |
and you actually perform a little better, like conversation wise than you normally would. Now,
link |
if you have five or six and then go over, you're going to make a fool of yourself. So it's all
link |
about timing and amount. But there is a reason that that happens. So anyway, I'm known for
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promoting this whiskey and deadlift concept. I love this. But it works like the Eastern Block.
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That's where I stole it from because I was watching all these Russian lifters would have
link |
a shot of vodka or something before they go lift. And I'm like, there's something here.
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So I started experimenting with it. And I'm like, that works. And then I started researching,
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nobody talks about this stuff. So it takes a while to start piecing together all the stuff that
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actually happens to make that happen. But it moves away the things that you're going to,
link |
the concerns about the ramifications in the future and the other stuff. So the,
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but brings you into the moment. And then the dopamine hit and the other and then it
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enhances whatever mood that you're in. But all of a sudden you get in the state much easier.
link |
And so it's really, really interesting, but it's very, it's a very small amount needed
link |
and very time sensitive, but it can be so much more powerful than like drugs people use
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for this stuff. It ties really together with meditative state and other pieces to,
link |
to get you into that flow state. Those thoughts about failure, what if, what if, like all that you,
link |
you get into that zone, that moment, that time. So anyway, so interesting and alcoholic is promoting
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out, you know, but there's an important point here, which not often talked about. I think it is
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fascinating that because you can get into so much trouble with alcohol when you use an excess,
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people don't often talk about the positive aspects of alcohol, even in your college years.
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It had a, it had a lasting effect on who I am as a person.
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I don't think people give enough credit to the positive aspect. See, you could have accomplished
link |
a lot of those same things with a little more moderation, which I think people should talk
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about more, which is like the way to open up a personality, like the flowering of the full
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character and the weirdness and the, the, the, like the beauty of who you are as a human being
link |
could be opened up with alcohol. And that's really interesting to think about.
link |
You should try some podcast with a, with a shot and, and these, you know, actually,
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I do this sometimes with myself and guests, and it will change the conversation and lubricates
link |
this, the conversation. Definitely not the excess, which is what I learned because I went all the
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way in because I do everything at extremes. So it was a really hard lesson that took me a lot
link |
of time to unwind, but it is interesting and people don't discuss those things because it's
link |
it's either this or this. You're one of the greatest strength athletes of all time. So it's
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worthwhile to consider how you optimize the, the feats of strength that you reach for
link |
with things like steroids. It makes perfect sense. And I think that was a, from my perspective,
link |
I think it was probably the right decision. You've achieved something incredible that inspires
link |
a huge number of people. That's it. And you've shown to yourself and to the world,
link |
but what the human body can accomplish. Yep. That's incredible.
link |
And no matter if I pushed to a less weight and if I disclosed everything that I did,
link |
and I didn't, you know, I wasn't using steroids in my opinion, if we went through everything,
link |
there were people that would say, you're using performance enhancing. No matter, like it is,
link |
it's straight up. So you just need to be okay with it yourself. And so I had to make the call.
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I want to see what the true potential is of ever, let's throw everything out the window
link |
that I feel, unless I feel it's a risk from a, from a health standpoint that I'm not willing to
link |
take on. And because that's how do I, like, it's just picking and choosing. Yeah. And it's just
link |
picking and choosing. I, here's what I want to know. This is what I want to be able to try to
link |
achieve. And so, yeah, yeah, that's what I did. And, and what you did is incredible. Like, it's,
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it's just all inspired. And what Sean did was incredible. Yeah. And that, and that aids me up.
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And what's funny is the people that Basham are like on the media or politicians or maybe some
link |
actors, and guess what? A ton of them are doing the same thing. It's hypocrisy at its finest,
link |
trust me. But how many, how many of those figures you're watching in movies that love to talk,
link |
you know, be, you know, be political and do this and the news and all this, I'm telling you,
link |
they're, they're anti aging clinics, like all over California and everywhere else. Who do you
link |
think is keeps them in business? Well, it's not a competitive lifter. I'll tell you that. Well,
link |
that's you're using peptides and also in Psalms and all sorts of like,
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you're speaking to the hypocrisy. I also want to speak to the, the fact, you know,
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somebody's a friend of mine, David Goggins. I don't know if you know what that is,
link |
ultramarathon runner, Navy seal. He gets pretty incredible person. Yeah. Incredible human being.
link |
And he gets criticism like, you know, what you're doing is, um, is bad for the body, you know,
link |
you're, you're pushing yourself too far. I find that the people that criticize are often people
link |
that haven't truly pushed themselves to the limit. They haven't actually worked hard in their life.
link |
When you work hard, you realize how incredible it is that a human being can dedicate themselves so
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fully to an effort. The way you did, the way David Goggins does, the way, the way the greatest
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athletes do. And there's nothing that should be said beyond just sitting back in awe, that humans
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can achieve that. And that inspires me to do the best, whatever the hell I do, to be the best
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version of that. There's something about like athletic feats, especially like strength, that
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just inspire us to do the best, to be the best version of ourselves. I don't know. And that's
link |
the only thing you should be saying as opposed to criticizing some little detail of this and that.
link |
It's just awe inspiring that you push yourself to the limit. That's been talked to anybody that
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is at that level. And this is funny, like in competitive sports, like you go online and people
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it's just bash, bash, bash, bash, bash, bash, bash. You go talk to anybody, anybody, anybody
link |
that's a high level athlete within that field. And nobody has a single bad thing to say about
link |
each other. But all this chitter chatter down there. I mean, I know exactly what you're saying.
link |
Yeah. So if you, I would say, because I have love for all those folks, especially when you're
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younger, you have a little bit of that desire to criticize others. Like, I think that should be
link |
channeled in improving your own life. Anytime that you feel that way, that is when you need to
link |
turn inward. And it's hard to do. But there is a reason that you have those emotions around someone
link |
else and what they're doing, that you have an opportunity to look at yourself and know why you
link |
feel that way. And that, guess what, that's going to be the hard thing to do. That's going to be the
link |
thing, again, that's stirring you a little bit, because it's so much easier to sit there and
link |
or talk to your confidant or whatever, instead of go, why does that bother me? Yeah. Why does what
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that person doing or what that person's achieving bother me? It's a good difficult question that I
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often ask others whether it's better to work hard or work smart. I like to ask that question
link |
because it helps me get a sense of the human being. And I think I, let me just say, I often,
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I often like people that answer that would work hard.
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Even though the quote unquote right answer is work smart, meaning like finding the optimal,
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efficient way to achieve a certain goal. I find that people that answer work smart,
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don't actually find the optimal, efficient way to achieve a goal. It seems like the people that,
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at least as certainly early in life, strive to work their ass off, even that means doing the
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inefficient, the dumb thing, just to learn the mistake, the spirit behind the human spirit
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behind the person that says work hard is the one I connect with. But I'm torn, especially in the
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war culture in the tech sector where people answer work smart. What would you say about
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that tension? This definitely encompasses like, I'm the intellectual and I'm the meathead.
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I'm the work around the clock and go fix the processes and make it so much better
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in there, type person, right? That's me in a whole, that's everything, that's my life story,
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right? Busting your ass to find the easiest way possible.
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So like, I will build a custom hydraulic cart that will lift my plates up to the height of my
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squat so that I can minimize, I roll it over next to it and then minimize the effort of it going
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on and off to be able to lift the most amount of weight as possible so that I can save the energy
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from here, from lifting those up in the fatigue of my back being in bad position so I can nearly
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kill myself over here, right? My wife, anybody will say, I'm a workaholic. And the first thing
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that I would do when I would be doing a company turnaround, they'd hire me come in and I would
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be taking over for someone that wasn't successful, but it was usually hardly ever for lack of want
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or trying. So a lot of times they knew they were unsuccessful and they were running around
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working six, seven days a week, 12 hour days, doing so much. And it'd be like, well, you need to do
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this and they train me on like, all the reports and this and all the things and like, good luck.
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Good luck. I couldn't do it. And the first thing I would do is nothing. I would do nothing
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because then I would find what actually keeps coming back, the things that I need to do and
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how much of it was filling the space because so much of human nature when you're failing is to
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make yourself feel like you're accomplishing things. This is when things go on your checklist
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and you start rolling up. So you're running around, just getting shit done. Yeah, yeah,
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being busy. Right? And so, but at the same time, find somewhere in my career, something I've done
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where I haven't outworked everybody. Just so much on distilling things down to what's important.
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Yeah. And you've got to make time to sit back and assess and think and be introspective.
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You have to make time for this because if not, you're going to waste so much time sitting there,
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walking sideways when all you got to do is move just one step in front of the other each day,
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just one. That's all I say because it's going to add up, but you could spend six months
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knocking shit out, doing your routine, busting your ass and not take that one step.
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So you've got to distill stuff down. You've got to really understand what's important to you in
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life and where you're going. And when you're looking at anything in your life, the first thing
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that you need to do is figure out, do I need to do it and just quit doing it? Just quit doing
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things in your life. And you'll see that a lot of stuff that you think has to be done,
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doesn't have to be done. You'd be surprised. And then from there is the tech, okay.
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And then of that, what can I automate? What can I not have to do in a repeated fashion?
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And then the last one, yeah, wherever possible, if it's not something that I'm adding tremendous
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value to, like my uniqueness, people are like, oh, you must do the auto work on your vehicles
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because you love working. I'm like, fuck that. I don't. They're like, what? That doesn't make
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any sense. And I'm like, no, I love creating things. But I don't want to do that stuff.
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So you could use delegating if you're a manager position, but it's outsourcing whatever it is.
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But there are also so many things, and this ties back to your point around just doing it.
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There's a point to experiencing all levels to really understand things. You need to spend time
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at the same time doing all those things because there could be good, huge, massive gaps in there
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that you're not aware of that are key for you or key to be having done different or so on.
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So like in my company days, I was one of the few executives that came in that could do anything on
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the floor from code to machine, run a lay the mill, weld, do all step into engineering. And that
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added tremendous value to me to having had spent time being a doer and not enough people want to
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be you've got to just go do shit. You need to spend time in your life chopping wood.
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Yeah, get a lot of shit done doesn't matter. You got to have experience trying and doing
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all these things that you would never like. My skill set is massive because I want to know like
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you need to have those touchpoints. My job, my title is chief visionary.
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But I've spent time doing everything. It's not about just like creating this amazing strategy
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or vision and I'm just going to be there and this person that directs and like,
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you can't be effective. You cannot connect the dots unless you've been in the moment with everything.
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Yeah, low level stuff. Sometimes it's doing stupid shit that you're not uniquely qualified
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to do that anywhere you could do, but you did it anyway.
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Just the training environment. People hit me up at a school or wherever like,
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hey, how do I get into I want to grow my grow my brand online. I want to do this,
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like where do I where do I start? I'm like, go get a job at Planet Fitness or 24 hour fitness.
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They're like, but I want to, you know, how do I get, you know, recognized and write articles and
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be an online coach. I'm like, you need to go spend a few years one on one training people
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to learn like the interaction, how people were, there's base levels you have to do.
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You've got to go work your way up from the ground. I truly believe it.
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Well, I think that's the hard work piece that I'm speaking to that I like it when people have been
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humbled by the hardness of life. Like how difficult it is to do stuff. I went and got my MBA.
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I went to MIT. I don't need to do that stuff. I'm above that. Yeah. Yeah. That's once you've been
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humbled by doing those things, I feel like you can truly explore the optimization that you're
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talking to finding the ways where you're uniquely capable to add value to the world.
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And then, and then again, work your ass off to be the best in the world at that thing.
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Yes. But then don't waste your time on shit that's not a line. Yeah. That's the only,
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so that's, I guess there's a lot of context I put around that. But yeah, that was like a long
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answer to a long, beautiful answer to an unanswerable question. Do you have advice
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outside of all this discussion to young people today about career, about life? Since you've done
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so many things, you've overcome a lot of things. Think high school, college student. Think about
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what to do in their life. Do you have advice for those guys and girls? Yeah. Yeah. First is,
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you don't have it figured out. So don't worry. Just jump in. Yeah. We talked a lot about
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understanding your values and aligning all that stuff, but you got to have a base level of
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start exploring and learning and just spending the time doing like pick something. Let me elaborate
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a little bit. No, you know what? A lot of people struggle with that aspect now because the choice,
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there's so much choice is difficult to pick something, but I think it does blow down to,
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you should pick something and don't worry about it. And then, but within that, you can start
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discovering the things that are there for you. Like I talked about, I made this huge shift,
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I threw away all my life, but I don't regret anything about that. I wouldn't be where I was
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if I didn't walk through and learn those things. And in fact, in the course of that, I learned
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just how much that inspiring people and helping them realize the potential far beyond what they
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thought was capable. And guess what? That was leadership 101 in managing people base level,
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floor level, right? And I got a lot out that was perfectly aligned with what, and that's what I
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realized it didn't matter what industry I was in or any of those other things. But I was able,
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you can see so many things, there's so many paths that you can go down to help you realize what those
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things are. And you're going to be able to find a lot of those nuggets and develop those. Do you
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think that I could have just gone to school and got out and started a globally recognized brand
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within a few years without having been schooled in business while getting paid for it by others
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for years? And in fact, that entire time, I knew that that's what I wanted to do,
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but I didn't go out on it. I mentored some of my friends along the same path to go,
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no, they're like, I'm ready. I'm ready to go do this. And I'm like, no, now you need to go get
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a job. Yeah, you know engineering management design, all that stuff. Go get a job as a manager
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now. Like, oh, that's a step down. I can't do that. I'm like, go try it. A couple years later,
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oh my God, that was such a good move. I didn't know what I didn't know. And now they're an
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executive for freaking a Fortune 500 company. And the same thing, like I sat there knowing
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that I was getting a free education. Don't stress yourself out as my, that's my advice.
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Don't stress yourself out that you've got to have this perfect thing. Because this process
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of understanding your values and the interest, that takes time. You can get a job where you're
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getting paid to learn. Exactly. That's a good deal before you launch on your own.
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You mentioned going back to darkness. I'm Russian, so I like going back to darkness.
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Yes. He suffers from depression. You consider suicide. Do you all ponder your own death these
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days? Do you think about your mortality? Are you afraid of death? I definitely think about
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mortality. And am I afraid of my own death? It depends on the moment. If I'm in the middle
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of a project, I definitely want to finish that project, man. But I don't fear it so much. I
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fear leaving my kids or my wife and not being able to be there for them. That bothers me.
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Outside of that, I know that I put everything into the life that I've lived. Like you said,
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there's always more, but I've lived hard. I've loved hard. Every moment in my life,
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I've made connections and impacted people around me for the better. And this tracks back, which is
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crazy when we were doing the documentary and they're interviewing people through my whole life
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and the consistency of the themes of anyone. Anything for Duffin. Sure, I'll fly in from
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Boston. It was crazy. Everybody had a story about me giving just over and over and I didn't even
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really... It's just the way you were. I've been all in. I have a lot more I want to do, but I don't
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have things that regret have not done in... I don't fear it. I don't fear it. Yeah, it's like the...
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I don't know if you know the Bukowski poem, Go All The Way. Otherwise, don't even try.
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It seems like you embody that poem and you've accomplished some incredible things
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and serve as an inspiration to a huge number of people. Chris, you're an amazing human being.
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I'm really honored that you would spend your valuable time with me. Thank you so much for
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talking with me today. It was incredible. I can't wait to check out all the cool stuff
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you've engineered with Kabuki Strength. So obviously, I love the... I love strength. I love
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strength training. I love the idea of strength. I love the equipment and the engineering
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approach that you take to strength. You're an incredible human, both on the things you've
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accomplished in terms of your own strength feats and the kind of science and engineering you bring
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to the field that many others could use. So thank you so much for talking today.
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Thanks for having me on. That was quite the final thing. Thank you.
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Thanks for listening to this conversation with Chris Duffin and thank you to Headspace,
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Magic Spoon, Sunbasket, and Ladder. Check them out in the description to support this podcast.
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And now, let me leave you with some words from Arnold Schwarzenegger.
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Strength does not come from winning. Your struggles develop your strengths. When you go
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through hardship and decide not to surrender, that is strength. Thank you for listening
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and hope to see you next time.