back to indexBarry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built | Lex Fridman Podcast #213
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The following is a conversation with Barry Barish, a theoretical physicist at Caltech
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and the winner of the Nobel Prize in Physics for his contributions to the LIGO detector
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and the observation of gravitational waves. LIGO, or the Laser Interferometer Gravitational
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Wave Observatory, is probably the most precise measurement device ever built by humans.
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It consists of two detectors with four kilometer long vacuum chambers situated three thousand
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kilometers apart, operating in unison to measure a motion that is 10,000 times smaller than the
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width of a proton. It is the smallest measurement ever attempted by science, a measurement of
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gravitational waves caused by the most violent and cataclysmic events in the universe,
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occurring over tens of millions of light years away. To support this podcast, please check out
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our sponsors in the description. This is the Lex Friedman podcast and here is my conversation
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with Barry Barish. You've mentioned that you were always curious about the physical world
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and that an early question you remember stood out where you asked your dad,
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why does ice float on water? And he couldn't answer. And this was very surprising to you.
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So, you went on to learn why. Maybe you can speak to what are some early questions in math
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and physics that really sparked your curiosity? Yeah, that memory is kind of something I used
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to illustrate, something I think that's common in science is that people that do science somehow
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have maintained something that kids always have. A small kid, eight years old or so,
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asks you so many questions usually, typically that you consider them pests, you tell them to
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stop asking so many questions. And somehow our system manages to kill that in most people.
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So, in school we make people do study and do their things, but not to pester them by asking too many
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questions. And I think not just myself, but I think it's typical of scientists like myself that
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have somehow escaped that. Maybe we're still children or maybe we somehow didn't get it beaten
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out of us, but I teach it in college level and it's, to me, one of the biggest deficits is the lack
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of curiosity, if you want, that we've beaten out of them because I think it's an innate human
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quality. Is there some advice or insights you can give to how to keep that flame of curiosity going?
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I think it's a problem of both parents and the parents should realize that's a great quality we
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have, that you're curious and that's good. Instead, we have expressions like curiosity killed the cat.
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And more, but basically it's not thought to be a good thing. Curiosity killed the cat
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means if you're too curious, you get in trouble. I don't like cats anyway, so maybe it's a good
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thing. Yeah, that, to me, needs to be solved really in education and in homes. It's a realization
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that there's certain human qualities that we should try to build on and not destroy one of
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them is curiosity. Anyway, back to me in curiosity, I was a pest and asked a lot of questions. My
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father generally could answer them at that age. And the first one I remember that he couldn't answer
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was not a very original question, but basically that ice is made out of water. And so why does it
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float on water? And he couldn't answer it. And it may not have been the first question. It's the
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first one that I remember. And that was the first time that I realized that to learn and answer your
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own curiosity or questions, there's various mechanisms. In this case, it was going to a
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librarian or asking people who know more and so forth. But eventually you do it by what we call
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research. But it's driven by if you're, hopefully you ask good questions. If you ask good questions
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and you have the mechanisms to solve them, then you do what I do in life basically, not necessarily
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physics, but and it's a great quality in humans and we should nurture it.
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Do you remember any other kind of in high school, maybe early college, more basic physics ideas
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that sparked your curiosity or mathematics or science in general?
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I wasn't really into science until I got to college, to be honest with you. But
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just staying with water for a minute, I remembered that I was curious why what happens to water,
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you know, it rains and there's water in a wet pavement and then the pavement dries out. What
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happened to this water that came down? And I, you know, I didn't know that much. And then eventually
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I learned in chemistry or something and water is made out of hydrogen and oxygen. Those are both
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gases. So how the heck does it make this substances liquid?
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Yeah, but so that has to do with states of matter. You've, I know, perhaps LIGO and the thing for
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which you've gotten the Nobel Prize and the things much of your life work, perhaps was a happy
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accident in some sense in the early days. But is there a moment where you looked up to the stars
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and also the same way you wondered about water, wondered about some of the things that are out
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there in the universe? Oh yeah, I think everybody's looks and is in awe and is curious about what it
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is out there. And, you know, and as I learned more, I learned, of course, that we don't know very
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much about what's there. And the more we learn, the more we know, we don't know. I mean, we don't
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know what the majority of anything is out there. It's all what we call dark matter or dark energy.
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And that's one of the big questions 20 year when I was a student, those weren't questions. So we
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even know less in a sense, the more we the more we look. So of course, I think that's one of the
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areas that almost it's universal people see the sky, they see the stars and they're beautiful and
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and see it looks different on different nights. And it's a curiosity that we all have.
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What are some questions about the universe that in the same way that you felt about the ice
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that today you mentioned to me offline, you're teaching a course on the frontiers of science,
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frontiers of physics. Yeah. What are some questions outside the ones we'll probably talk about that
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kind of? Yeah, fill you with get your flame of curiosity up and firing up. Yeah, you know,
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fill you with all. Well, first, I'm a physicist, not an astronomer. So I'm interested in physical
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the physical phenomenon really. So the question of dark matter and dark energy, which we probably
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won't talk about our recent our recent there in the last 20, 30 years for certainly dark energy.
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Dark energy is that complete puzzle. It goes against what I will what you will ask me about,
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which is general relativity and Einstein's general relativity, it basically takes something
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that he thought was what he what he called a constant, which isn't and and in the if that's
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even the right theory and it represents most of the universe. And then we have something called
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dark matter and there's good reason to believe it might be an exotic form of particles. And that
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is something I've always worked on on particle accelerators and so forth. And it's a big puzzle
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what it is. It's a bit of a cottage industry and that there's lots and lots of searches.
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But it may be a little bit like, you know, looking for a treasure under rocks or something,
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you know, it's hard to we don't have really good guidance, except that we have very,
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very good information that is pervasive and it's there. And that it's probably particles small
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that the evidence is all of those things. But then the most logical solution doesn't seem to work
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something called supersymmetry. And do you think the answer could be something very complicated?
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You know, I like to hope that think that most things that appear complicated are actually
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simple if you really understand them. I think we just don't know at the present time and it isn't
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something that affects us. It does affect it affects how the stars go around each other and so
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forth, because we detect that there's missing gravity, but but it doesn't affect everyday life
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at all. I tend to think and expect maybe and that the answers will be simple. We just haven't found
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it yet. Do you think those answers might change the way we see other sources of gravity, black holes,
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the way we see the parts of the universe that we do study? It's conceivable. The
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black holes that we've found in our experiment and we're trying now to understand the origin of
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those. It's conceivable, but not doesn't seem the most likely that they're primordial. That is,
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they were made at the beginning and they in that sense they could represent at least part of the
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dark matter. So there can be connections, dark black holes or how many there are, how much of the
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mass they encompass is still pretty primitive. We don't know. So before I talk to you more about
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black holes, let me take a step back to yeah. I was actually went to high school in Chicago and
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would go to take classes at Fermilab, watch the Buffalo and so on. Yeah. So let me ask about,
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you mentioned that Enrico for me was somebody who was inspiring to you in a certain kind of way.
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Why is that? Can you speak to that? Sure. He was amazing actually. He's the last,
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this is not the, I'll come to the reason in a minute, but he had a big influence on me at a
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young age. But he was the last physicist of note that was both an experimental physicist
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and a theorist at the same time. And he did two amazing things within months in 1933.
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We didn't really know what the nucleus was, what radioactive decay was, what beta decay was
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when electrons come out of a nucleus. And near the end of 1933, the neutron had just been discovered.
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And that meant that we knew a little bit more about what the nucleus is that it's made out of
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neutrons and protons. The neutron wasn't discovered till 1932. And then once we discovered that there
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was a neutron and proton and they made the nucleus and then their electrons that go around,
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the basic ingredients were there. And he wrote down not only just the theory, a theory, but a
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theory that lasted decades and has only been improved on of beta decay. That is the radiation.
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He did this, came out of nowhere. And it was a fantastic theory. He submitted it to Nature
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Magazine, which was the primary best place to publish even then. And it got rejected as being too
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speculative. And so he went back to his drawing board in Rome where he was,
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added some to it, made it even longer, because it's really a classic article and then published it in
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the local Italian Journal for Physics and the German one. At the same time, in January of
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1932, Giulio and Curie for the first time saw artificial radioactivity. This was an important
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discovery because radioactivity had been discovered much earlier. They had x rays and you
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shouldn't be using them, but there was radioactivity. People knew it was useful for medicine.
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But radioactive materials are hard to find. And so it wasn't prevalent. But if you could make them,
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then they had great use. And Giulio and Curie were able to bombard aluminum or something with alpha
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particles and find that they excited something that decayed and gave, decayed and had some half
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life and so forth, meaning it was artificial version or let's call it not a natural version,
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an induced version of radioactive materials. And Fermi somehow had the insight, and I still
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can't see where he got it, that the right way to follow that up was not using charged particles
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like alphas and so forth, but use these newly discovered neutrons as the bombarding particle.
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Seemed impossible. They barely had been seen. It was hard to get very many of them. But it had the
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advantage that they're not charged, so they go right into the nucleus. And that turned out to be
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the experimental work that he did that won him the Nobel Prize. And it was the first step in
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fission, discovery of fission. And he did this two completely different things, an experiment that
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was a great idea and tremendous implementation, because how do you get enough neutrons? And then
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he learned quickly that not only do you want neutrons, but you want really slow ones. He learned
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that experimentally, and he learned how to make slow ones. And then they were able to make go
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through the periodic table and make lots of particles. He missed on fission at the moment,
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but he had the basic information. And then fission followed soon after that.
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Forgive me for not knowing, but is the birth of the idea of bombarding with neutrons,
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is that an experimental idea? Was it born out of an experiment? He just observed something?
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Or is this an Einstein style idea where you come up from basic intuition?
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I think it took a combination, because he realized that neutrons had a characteristic
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that would allow them to go all the way into the nucleus when we didn't really understand what the
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structure was of all this. So that took an understanding or recognition of the physics
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itself of how a neutron interacts compared to, say, an alpha particle that Julio and Curie had used.
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And then he had to invent a way to have enough neutrons. And he had a team of associates
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and he pulled it off quite quickly. So it was pretty astounding.
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And probably, maybe you can speak to it, his ability to put together the engineering aspects
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of great experiments and doing the theory, they probably fed each other. I wonder, can you speak
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to why we don't see more of that? Is that just really difficult to do?
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It's difficult to do. Yeah, I think both theory and experiment in physics anyway
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was conceivable if you had the right person to do it and no one's been able to do it since.
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So I had the dream that that was what I was going to be like Fermi.
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So you love both sides of it, the theory.
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Yeah, I never liked the idea that you did experiments without really understanding
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the theory or the theory should be related very closely to experiments.
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And so I've always done experimental work that was closely related to the theoretical ideas.
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I think I told you I'm Russian, so I'm going to ask some romantic questions.
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But is it tragic to you that he's seen as the architect of the nuclear age,
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that some of his creations led to potentially some of his work has led to potentially still
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the destruction of the human species, some of the most destructive weapons?
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I think even more general than him, I gave you all the virtues of curiosity a few minutes ago.
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There's an interesting book called The Ratchet of Curiosity,
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you know, a ratchet is something that goes in one direction.
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And that is written by a guy who's probably a sociologist or philosopher or something.
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And he picks on this particular problem, but other ones.
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And that is the danger of knowledge, basically.
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You know, you're curious, you learn something.
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So it's a little bit like curiosity killed the cat.
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You have to be worried about whether you can handle new information that you get.
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So in this case, the new information had to do with really understanding nuclear physics.
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And that information, maybe we didn't have the sophistication to know how to keep it
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keep it under control.
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And Fermi himself was a very apolitical person.
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So he wasn't very driven by or at least he appears in all of his writing,
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the writing of his wife, the interactions that others had with him as either he avoided it all
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or he was pretty apolitical.
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I mean, he just saw the world through kind of the lens of a scientist.
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But he asked if it's tragic that the bomb was tragic, certainly on Japan.
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And he had a role in that.
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So I wouldn't want it as my legacy, for example.
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I mean, but brought it to the human species that it's the ratchet of curiosity that we
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we do stuff just to see what happens.
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That that curiosity that in sort of my area of artificial intelligence, that's been a concern.
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They're on a small scale, on a silly scale, perhaps currently, there's constantly
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unintended consequences.
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You create a system and you put it out there and you have intuitions about how it will work.
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You have hopes how it will work, but you put it out there just to see what happens.
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And in most cases, because artificial intelligence is currently not super popular,
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artificial intelligence is currently not super powerful.
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It doesn't create large scale negative effects.
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But that same curiosity as it progresses might lead to something that destroys the human species.
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And the same may be true for bioengineering.
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There's people that, you know, engineer viruses to protect us from viruses,
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to see, you know, how close is this to mutating so it can jump to humans, or going, you know,
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or engineering defenses against those.
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And it seems exciting in the application.
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The positive applications are really exciting at this time.
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But we don't think about how that runs away in decades to come.
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Yeah. And I think it's the same idea as this little book, The Ratchet of Science,
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The Ratchet of Curiosity.
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I mean, whether you pursue, take curiosity and let artificial intelligence or machine
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learning run away with having its solutions to whatever you want, or we do it,
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is, I think, a similar consequence.
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I think from what I've read about Enrico Fermi, he became a little bit cynical about the human
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species towards the end of his life, both having observed what he observed.
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We didn't write much. I mean, he died young.
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He died soon after the World War.
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There was already, you know, the work by Teller to develop the hydrogen bomb.
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And I think he was a little cynical of that, you know, pushing it even further and
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rising tensions between the Soviet Union and the U.S. and look like an endless thing.
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So, but he didn't say very much, but a little bit, as you said that.
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Yeah, there's a few clips to sort of maybe picked on a bad mood, but in a sense that,
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almost like a sadness, a melancholy sadness, to a hope that waned a little bit about that,
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perhaps we can do, like this curious species can find the way out.
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Well, especially, I think people who worked like he did at Los Alamos and spent
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years of their life somehow had to convince themselves that dropping these bombs would bring
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lasting peace and that it didn't.
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As a small, interesting aside, it'd be interesting to hear if you have opinions on this.
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His name is also attached to the Fermi Paradox, which asks if there is a, you know,
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with Fermi, it's a very interesting question, which is if it does seem, if you sort of reason,
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basically, that there should be a lot of alien civilizations out there.
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If the human species, if Earth is not that unique by basic, no matter the values you pick,
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it's likely that there's a lot of alien civilizations out there.
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And if that's the case, why have they not at least obviously visited us or sent us loud
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signals that everybody can hear?
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Fermi's quoted as saying, sitting down at lunch, I think it was with Teller and Herb York,
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who was kind of one of the fathers of the atomic bomb.
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And he sat down and he said something like, where are they?
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Which meant, where are these other?
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And then he did some numerology where he calculated what they knew about how many
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galaxies there are and how many stars and how many planets then are like the Earth and blah,
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That's been done much better by somebody named Drake.
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And so people usually refer to the, I don't know whether it's called the Drake formula
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or something, but it has the same conclusion.
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The conclusion is it would be a miracle if there weren't other,
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there's the statistics are so high that how can we be singular and separate?
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That's so probably there is, but there's almost certainly life somewhere.
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Maybe there was even life on Mars a while back, but intelligent life.
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Probably why are we so, so the statistics say that.
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Communicating with us, I think that it's harder than people think.
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We might not know the right way to expect the communication.
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But all the communication that we know about travels at the speed of light.
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And we don't, we don't think anything can go faster in the speed of light.
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That limits the problem quite a bit.
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And it makes it difficult to have any back and forth communication.
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You can send signals like we tried to or look for, but to have any communication,
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it's pretty hard when you, it has to be close enough that the speed of light
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would mean we could communicate with each other.
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And I think, and we didn't even understand that.
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I mean, we're an advanced civilization, but we didn't even understand that
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a little more than a hundred years ago.
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So are we just not advanced enough maybe to know something about that's the speed of light?
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Maybe there's some other way to communicate that isn't based on electromagnetism.
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I don't, I don't know.
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Gravity seems to be also this have the same speed.
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That was a principle that Einstein had and something we've measured actually.
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So is it possible?
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I mean, so we'll talk about gravitational waves.
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And it, in some sense, there's a, there's a brainstorming going on,
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which is like, how do we detect the signal?
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Like what would a signal look like and how would we detect it?
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And that's true for gravitational waves.
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That's true for basically any physics phenomena.
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You have to predict that that signal should exist.
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You have to have some kind of theory and model why that signal should exist.
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I mean, is it possible that aliens are communicating with us via gravity?
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Well, yeah, it's true.
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For us, it's very hard to detect these gravitational effects.
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They have to come from something pretty that has a lot of gravity like black holes.
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But we're pretty primitive at this stage.
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There's a very reputable physicists that look for a fifth force,
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one that we haven't found yet.
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Maybe it's the key.
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What would that look like?
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What would a fifth force of physics look like exactly?
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Well, usually they think it's probably a longer range force than we have now.
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But they're reputable for colleagues of mine that spend their life looking for a fifth force.
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So longer range than gravity?
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It doesn't fall off like one over r squared, but maybe separately.
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Gravity Newton taught us goes like inversely, one over the square of the distance apart you are.
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So it falls pretty fast.
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So now we have a theory of what consciousness is.
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It's just the fifth force of physics.
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That's a good hypothesis.
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Speaking of gravity, what are gravitational waves?
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Let's maybe start from the basics.
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We learned gravity from Newton.
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You and you were young.
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You were told that if you jumped up, the earth pulled you down.
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And when the apple falls out of the tree, the earth pulls it down.
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And maybe you even asked your teacher why.
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But most of us accepted that.
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That was Newton's picture, the apple falling out of the tree.
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But Newton's theory never told you why the apple was attracted to the earth.
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That was a missing in Newton's theory.
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Newton's theory also, Newton recognized at least one of the two problems I'll tell you.
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One of them is there's more than those, but one is why does the earth?
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What's the mechanism by which the earth pulls the apple or holds the moon when it goes around,
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That's not explained by Newton.
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Even though he has the most successful theory of physics ever,
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went 200 in some years with nobody ever seeing violation.
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But he actually describes the movement of an object falling down to earth,
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but he's not answering why that, because it's a distance.
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He gives a formula, which it's a product of the earth's mass, the apple's mass,
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inversely proportional to the square, the distance between.
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And then the strength he called capital G, the strength he couldn't determine,
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but it was determined 100 years later.
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But no one ever saw a violation of this until a possible violation, which Einstein fixed,
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which was very small, that has to do with Mercury going around the sun.
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The orbit being slightly wrong if you calculate it by Newton's theory.
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But, so, like most theories then in physics, you can have a wonderful one like Newton's theory.
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It isn't wrong, but you have to have an improvement on it to answer things that it can't answer.
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And in this case, Einstein's theory is the next step.
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We don't know if it's anything like a final theory or even the only way to formulate it either.
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But he formulated this theory, which he released in 1915.
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He took 10 years to develop it, even though in 1905 he solved three or four of the most
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important problems in physics in a matter of months.
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And then he spent 10 years on this problem before he let it out.
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And this is called general relativity.
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It's a new theory of gravity.
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In 1915 and 1916, Einstein wrote a little paper where he did not do some fancy derivation.
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Instead, he did, what I would call it, used his intuition, which he was very good at too.
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And that is, he noticed that if he wrote the formulas for general relativity in a particular way,
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they looked a lot like the formulas for electricity and magnetism.
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Being Einstein, he then took the leap that electricity and magnetism, we discovered only
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20 years before that in the 1880s, have waves.
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Of course, that's light and electromagnetic rays, radio waves, everything else.
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So he said, if the formulas look similar, then gravity probably has waves too.
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That's such a big leap, by the way.
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I mean, maybe you can correct me, but that just seems like a heck of a leap.
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Yeah, and it was considered to be a heck of a leap.
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So first, that paper, except for this intuition, was poorly written, had a serious mistake.
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It had a factor of two wrong in the strength of gravity, which meant, if we use those formulas,
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we would, and two years later, he wrote a second paper.
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And in that paper, it turns out to be important for us, because in that paper, he not only
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fixed his factor of two mistake, which he never admitted.
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He just wrote it, fixed it like he always did.
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And then he told us how you make gravitational waves, what makes gravitational waves.
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And you might recall, in electromagnetism, we make electromagnetic waves in a simple way.
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You take a plus charge and minus charge, you oscillate like this, and that makes
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electromagnetic waves, and a physicist named Hertz made a receiver that could detect the waves
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and put it in the next room.
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He saw them and moved forward and backward and saw that it was wave like.
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So Einstein said it won't be a dipole like that.
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It'll be a four pole thing.
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And that's what it's called a quadrupole moment that gives the gravitational waves.
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So he saw that again by insight, not by derivation.
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That's at the table for which he needed to do it.
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At the same time, in the same year, Schwarzschild, not Einstein, said there were things like
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called black holes.
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So it's interesting that that came the same.
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So what year was that?
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It was in parallel.
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I should probably know this, but did Einstein not have any intuition that there should be
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such things as black holes?
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That came from Schwarzschild.
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So Schwarzschild, who was a German theoretical physicist, he got killed in the war, I think,
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in the First World War, two years later or so.
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He's the one that proposed black holes, that there were black holes.
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It feels like a natural conclusion of general relativity, no?
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Well, it may seem like it, but I don't know about a natural conclusion.
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It's a result of curved space time, though.
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Right, but it's such a weird result that you might have to, it's a special case.
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It's a special case.
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So, I don't know, anyway, Einstein then, an interesting part of the story, is that Einstein
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then left the problem.
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Most physicists, because it really wasn't derived, he just made this, didn't pick up
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on it, or general relativity much, because quantum mechanics became the thing in physics.
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And Einstein only picked up this problem again after he immigrated to the US.
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So he came to the US in 1932.
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And I think in 1934 or five, he was working with another physicist called Rosen, who he
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did several important works with, and they revisited the question.
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And they had a problem that most of us as students always had that studied general relativity.
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General relativity is really hard, because it's four dimensional instead of three dimensional.
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And if you don't set it up right, you get infinities, which don't belong there.
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We call them coordinate singularities as a name.
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But if you get these infinities, you don't get the answers you want.
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And he was trying to derive now general relativity from general relativity gravitational waves.
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And in doing it, he kept getting these infinities.
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And so he wrote a paper with Rosen that he submitted to our most important journal, Physical
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And that when it was submitted to Physical Review Letters, it was entitled, Do Gravitational
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Waves Exist, a very funny title to write 20 years after he proposed they exist.
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But it's because he had found these singularities, these infinities.
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And so the editor at that time, and part of it that I don't know, is peer review.
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We live and die by peer review as scientists and send our stuff out.
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We don't know when peer review actually started or what peer review Einstein ever experienced
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But the editor of Physical Review sent this out for review.
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He could take any article and just accept it.
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He could reject it or he could send it for review.
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I believe the editors used to have much more power.
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And he was a young man.
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His name was Tate.
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And he ended up being editor for years.
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But so he sent this for review to a theoretical physicist named Robertson, who was also in
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this field of general relativity, who happened to be on sabbatical at that moment at Caltech.
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Otherwise, his institution was Princeton, where Einstein was.
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And he saw that the way they set up the problem, the infinities were like I make it as a student.
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Because if you don't set it up right in general relativity, you get these infinities.
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And so he reviewed the article and gave an illustration that if they set it up in what
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are called cylindrical coordinates, these infinities went away.
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The editor of Physical Review was obviously intimidated by Einstein.
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He wrote this really not a letter back like I would get saying, you're screwed up in
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And it was kind of, what do you think of the comments of our referee?
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Einstein wrote back, it's a well documented letter, wrote back a letter to Physical Review
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saying, I didn't send you the paper to send it to one of your so called experts, I sent
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it to you to publish.
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I withdraw the paper.
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And he never published again in that journal.
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Instead, he rewrote it with the fixes that were made, changed the title and published
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it in what was called the Franklin Review, which is the Franklin Institute in Philadelphia,
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which is Benjamin Franklin Institute, which doesn't have a journal now, but did at that
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So the article is published.
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It's the last time he ever wrote about it.
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It remained controversial.
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So it wasn't until close to 1960, 1958, where there was a conference that brought together
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the experts in general relativity to try to sort out whether it was true that there were
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gravitational waves or not.
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And there was a very nice derivation by a British theorist from the heart of the theory
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that gets gravitational waves.
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And that was number one.
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The second thing that happened at that meeting is Richard Feynman was there.
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And Feynman said, well, if there's a typical Feynman, if there's gravitational waves,
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they need to be able to do something, otherwise they don't exist.
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So they have to be able to transfer energy.
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So he made an idea of a Gadankan experiment that is just a bar with a couple of rings
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And then if a gravitational wave goes through, it distorts the bar.
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And that creates friction on these little rings.
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And that's energy.
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Is that a good idea?
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That sounds like a good idea.
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But he showed that with the distortion of space time, you could transfer energy just
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by this little idea.
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And it was shown theoretically.
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So at that point, it was believed theoretically then by people that gravitational waves should
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No, we should be able to detect them.
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We should be able to detect them, except that they're very, very small.
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So there's a bunch of questions here, but what kind of events would generate gravitational
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You have to have this what I call quadrupole moment.
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That comes about if I have, for example, two objects that go around each other like this,
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like the earth around the sun or the moon around the earth.
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Or in our case, it turns out to be two black holes going around each other like this.
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So how's that different than basic oscillation back and forth?
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Is it just more common in nature to have...
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Oscillation is a dipole moment.
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So it has to be in three dimensional space kind of oscillation.
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So you have to have something that's three dimensional that'll give what I call a quadrupole
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That's just built into this.
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And luckily in nature, you have stuff out.
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And luckily things exist.
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And it is luckily because the effect is so small that you could say, look, I can take
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a barbell and spin it and detect the gravitational waves.
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But unfortunately, no matter how fast I spin it, so I know how to make gravitational waves,
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but they're so weak, I can't detect them.
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So we have to take something that's stronger than I can make.
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Otherwise, we would do what Hertz did for electromagnetic waves, go in our lab, take
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a barbell, put it on something, spin it.
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Can I ask a dumb question?
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So a single object that's weirdly shaped, does that generate gravitational waves?
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So if it's rotating?
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But it's just much weaker signal.
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Well, we didn't know what the strongest signal would be that we would see.
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We targeted seeing something called neutron stars, actually, because black holes we don't
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know very much about.
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It turned out we were a little bit lucky there was a stronger source, which was the black
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Well, another ridiculous question.
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So you say waves, what does a wave mean?
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The most ridiculous version of that question is, what does it feel like to ride a wave
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as you get closer to the source or experience it?
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Well, if you experience a wave, imagine that this is what happens to you.
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I don't know what you mean about getting close, it comes to you.
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So it's like this light wave or something that comes through you.
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So when the light hits you, it makes your eyes detected.
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What does this do?
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It's like going to the amusement park, and they have these mirrors.
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You look in this mirror and you look short and fat, and the one next to you makes you
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Imagine that you went back and forth between those two mirrors once a second.
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That would be a gravitational wave with a period of once a second.
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If you did it 60 times a second, go back and forth, and then that's all that happens.
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It makes you taller and shorter and fatter back and forth as it goes through you at the
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frequency of the gravitational wave.
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So the frequencies that we detect are higher than one a second, but that's the idea.
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And the amount is small.
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Not the small, but if you're closer to the source of the wave, is it the same amount?
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Yeah, it doesn't dissipate.
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It doesn't dissipate.
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Okay, so it's not that fun of an amusement ride.
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Well, it does dissipate, but it's proportional to the distance.
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It's not a big power, or something.
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But it would be a fun ride if you get a little bit closer, or a lot closer.
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I wonder what the, okay, this is a ridiculous question, but I have you here.
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Like the getting fatter and taller, I mean, that experience, for some reason that's mind
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blowing to me, because it brings the distortion of space time to you.
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I mean, space time is being morphed, right?
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This is a wave that's so weird.
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And we're in space.
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Yeah, we're in space, and now it's moving.
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I don't know what to do with the, I mean, does it, okay.
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How much do you think about the philosophical implications of general relativity?
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Like that we're in space time, and it can be bent by gravity.
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Like, is that just what it is?
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Are we supposed to be okay with this?
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Because Newton, even Newton is a little weird, right?
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But that at least makes sense.
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That's our physical world, you know, when an apple falls, it makes sense.
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But like the fact that entirety of the space time we're in can bend, that's really mind
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Well, let me make another analogy.
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This is a therapy session for me at this point.
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Yeah, right, another analogy.
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So imagine you have a trampoline.
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What happens if you put a marble on a trampoline?
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Doesn't do anything, right?
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Maybe a little bit, but not much.
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I mean, just if I drop it, it's not going to go anywhere.
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Now imagine I put a bowling ball at the center of the trampoline.
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Now I come up to the trampoline and I put a marble on.
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You know, roll towards the bowling ball.
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So what's happened is the presence of this massive object distorted the space that the
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This is the same thing that happens to the presence of the earth, the earth and the apple.
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The presence of the earth affects the space around it just like the bowling ball on the
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This doesn't make me feel better.
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If I'm from the perspective of an ant walking around on that trampoline, then some guy just
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dropped a ball and not only dropped a ball, right?
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It's not just dropping a bowling ball.
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It's making the ball go up and down or doing some kind of oscillation thing where it's
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And that's so fundamentally different from the experience on being on flat land and walking
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around and just finding delicious sweet things as ant does.
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And it just feels like to me from a human experience perspective, completely, it's humbling.
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It's truly humbling.
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It's humbling, but we see that kind of phenomenon all the time.
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Let me give you another example.
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Imagine that you walk up to a still pond.
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Now I throw, you like to throw a rock in it.
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The rock goes in, sinks to the bottom, fine and these little ripples go out.
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And they travel out.
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That's exactly what happens.
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I mean, there's a disturbance, which is the safe, the bowling ball or our black holes.
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And then the ripples, they go out in the water, they're not, they don't have any, they don't
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have the rock, any part, pieces of the rock.
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The thing is, I guess, what's not disturbing about that is it's a, I mean, I guess a flat
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two dimensional surface that's being disturbed, like for a three dimensional surface, a three
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dimensional space to be disturbed feels weird.
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It's four dimensional because it's space and time.
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So that's why you need Einstein is to make it four dimensional.
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To make it four dimensional.
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To take the same phenomenon and look at it in all of space and time.
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Anyway, luckily for you and I and all of us, the amount of distortion is incredibly small.
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So it turns out that if you think of space itself, now this is going to blow your mind
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If you think of space as being like a material, like this table, it's very stiff.
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We have materials that are very pliable, materials that are very stiff.
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So space itself is very stiff.
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So when gravitational waves come through it, luckily for us, it doesn't distort it so
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much that it affects our ordinary life very much.
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No, I mean, that's great.
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I thought there was something bad coming.
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No, this is great.
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That's great news.
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And so, I mean, that, I mean, perhaps we evolved as a life on earth to be such that for us,
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this particular set of effects of gravitational waves is not that significant, maybe.
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You probably used this effect today or yesterday.
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So it's pervasive.
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Well, you mean gravity or the way, the external, because I only curvature of space and time.
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Curvature of space.
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I only care personally as a human, right?
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The gravity of earth.
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But you use it every day almost.
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No, no, no, it's in this thing.
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Every time it tells you where you are, how does it tell you where you are?
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It tells you where you are because we have 24 satellites or some number that are going
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around in space and it asks how long it takes the beam to go to the satellite and come back
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the signal to different ones and then it triangulates and tells you where you are.
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And then if you go down the road, it tells you where you are.
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Do you know that if you did that with the satellites and you didn't use Einstein's equations?
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You won't get the right answer.
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And in fact, if you take a road that's, say, 10 meters wide, I've done these numbers and
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you ask how long you'd stay on the road if you didn't make the correction for general
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relativity, this thing you're poo pooing, because you're using every day, you'd go off
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You'd go off the road.
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Well, actually, that might be my problem.
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Well, I think I'm using an Andreas and the GPS doesn't work that well, so maybe I'm
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using Newton's physics, so I need to upgrade to general relativity.
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So the gravitation waves in Einstein had, wait, Feynman really does have a part in the
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Was that one of the first kind of experimental proposed, the tech gravitation waves?
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Well, he did what we call a Godonkin experiment.
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That's a thought experiment.
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Not a real experiment.
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Well, after that, then people believe gravitation waves must exist.
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You can kind of calculate how big they are, they're tiny, and so people started searching.
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The first idea that was used was Feynman's idea, and then, oh, very end of it, and it
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was to take a great big, huge bar of aluminum and then put around, and it's made like a
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cylinder and then put around it some very, very sensitive detectors so that if a gravitational
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wave happened to go through it, it would go, and you detect this extra strain that was
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And that was this method that was used until we came along.
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It wasn't a very good method to use.
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And what was the, so we're talking about a pretty weak signal here.
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Yeah, that's why that method didn't work.
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So what, can you tell the story of figuring out what kind of method would be able to detect
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this very weak signal of gravitational waves?
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So remembering the, remembering what happens when you go to the amusement park, that it's
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going to do something like stretch this way and squash that way, squash this way and stretch
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We do have an instrument that can detect that kind of thing.
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It's called an interferometer.
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And what it does is it just basically takes usually light and the two directions that
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we're talking about, you send light down one direction and the perpendicular direction.
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And if nothing changes, it takes the same, and the arms are the same length.
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It just goes down, bounces back.
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And if you invert one compared to the other, they cancel.
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So there's nothing happens.
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But if it's like the amusement park and one of the arms got shorter and fatter.
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So it took longer to go horizontally than it did to go vertically.
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Then when they come back, when the light comes back, that comes back somewhat out of time.
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And that basically is the scheme.
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The only problem is that that's not done very accurately in general.
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And we had to do it extremely accurately.
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So what's the difficulty of doing so accurately?
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So the measurement that we have to do is a distortion in time.
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It's a distortion.
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That's one part in 10 to the 21.
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That's 21 zeros and a one.
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So this is like a delay in the thing coming back?
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It's one of them coming back after the other one, but the difference is just one part in
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So for that reason, we make it big.
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Let the arms be long.
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So one part in 10 to the 21.
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In our case, it's kilometers long.
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So we have an instruments of kilometers in one direction, kilometers in the other.
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How many kilometers?
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We're talking about four kilometers.
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Four kilometers in each direction.
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If you take then one part in 10 to the 21, we're talking about measuring something to
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10 to the minus 18 meters.
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Now, to tell you how small that is, the proton thing we're made of, which you can't go and
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grab so easily, is 10 to the minus 15 meters.
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So this is one 1,000th the size of a proton.
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That's the size of the effect.
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Einstein himself didn't think this could be measured, ever seen actually.
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But that's because he didn't anticipate modern lasers and techniques that we developed.
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So maybe can you tell me a little bit what you're referring to as LIGO, the laser interferometer
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or gravitational wave observatory?
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Can you just elaborate kind of the big picture view here before I ask you specific questions
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So in the same idea that I just said, we have two long vacuum pipes, four kilometers long.
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We start with a laser beam and we divide the beam going down the two arms and we have a
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mirror at the other end, reflects it back.
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It's more subtle, but we bring it back.
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If there's no distortion in space time and the lengths are exactly the same, which we
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calibrate them to be, then when it comes back, if we just invert one signal compared
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to the other, they'll just cancel.
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So we see nothing.
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But if one arm got a little bit longer than the other, then they don't come back at exactly
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They don't exactly cancel.
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That's what we measure.
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So to give a number to it, we have to do that to, we have the change of length to be able
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to do this 10 to the minus 18 meters to one part in 10 to the 12th.
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And that was the big experimental challenge that required a lot of innovation to be able
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What you gave a lot of credit to, I think Caltech and MIT for some of the technical
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developments like within this project.
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Is there some interesting things you can speak to like at the low level of some cool stuff
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that had to be solved?
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I'm a software engineer.
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So all of this, I have so much more respect for everything done here than anything I've
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So it's just code.
link |
So I'll give you an example of doing mechanical engineering at a basically mechanical
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engineering and geology and maybe at a level.
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So what do we, what's the problem?
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The problem is the following that I've given you this picture of an instrument that by
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some magic, I can make good enough to measure this very short distance.
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But then I put it down here.
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And the reason it doesn't work is that the earth itself is moving all over the place
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You don't realize that it seems pretty good to you, but it's moving all the time.
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So somehow it's moving so much that we can't deal with it.
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We happen to be trying to do the experiment here on earth, but we can't deal with it.
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So we have to make the instrument isolated from the earth.
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At the frequencies we're at, we've got to float it.
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That's a mechanical, that's an engineering problem, not a physics problem.
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So when you actually like we're doing, we're having a conversation on our podcast right
link |
now, there's, and people who record music work with this, how to create an isolated
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room and they usually build a room within a room, but that's still not isolated.
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In fact, they say it's impossible to truly isolate from sound, from noise and stuff like
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But that's like one step of millions that you took as building a room inside a room.
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You basically have to isolate all.
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This is actually an easier problem.
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You just have to do it really well.
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So the making a clean room is really a tough problem because you have to put a room inside
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So this is this is really simple engineering or physics.
link |
So what do you have to do?
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How do you isolate yourself from the, from the earth?
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First, we work at, we're not looking at all frequencies for gravitational waves.
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We're looking at particular frequencies that you can deal with here on earth.
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So what are frequencies with those be?
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You were just talking about frequencies.
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I mean, I don't know.
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We know by evolution, our bodies know it's the audio band.
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The reason our ears work where they work is that's where the earth isn't going, making
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So the reason our ears work the way they work is because this is where it's quiet.
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So if you go to, if you go to one Hertz instead of 10 Hertz, it's the earth is really moving
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So, so somehow we live in a, what we call the audio band, it's tens of Hertz to thousands
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That's where we live.
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That's where we live.
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If we're going to do an experiment on the earth, it might as well do it.
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It's the same frequency.
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That's where the earth is the quietest.
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So we have to work in that frequency.
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So we're not looking at all frequencies, okay?
link |
So the solution for the, for the shaking of the earth to get rid of it is pretty mundane.
link |
If we do the same thing that you do to make your car drive smoothly down the road.
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So what happens when your car goes over a bump?
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Early cars did that.
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But you don't feel that in your car.
link |
So what happened to that energy?
link |
You can't just disappear energy.
link |
So we have these things called shock absorbers in the car.
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What they do is they absorb, they take the, the thing that went like that and they basically
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can't get rid of the energy, but they move it to very, very low frequency.
link |
So what you feel isn't, you feel like, oh, smoothly.
link |
So we also work at this frequency.
link |
So if we, so we basically why, why do we have to do anything other than shock absorbers?
link |
So we made the world's fanciest shock absorbers, okay?
link |
Not just like in your car where there's one layer of them, they're just the right squishiness
link |
They're better than what's in the cars.
link |
And we have four layers of it.
link |
So whatever shakes and gets through the first layer, we treat it in a second, third or fourth
link |
So some mechanical engineering problem.
link |
So there's not, there's no weird tricks to it, like a, like a chemistry type thing or
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Just while the right squishiness, you know, I need the right material inside and ours
link |
looks like little springs, but they're springs.
link |
So like legitimately like shock absorbers.
link |
And this is now experimental physics at the edits limit.
link |
So you do this and we make the world's fanciest shock absorbers.
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Just mechanical engineering.
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Just mechanical engineering.
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This is hilarious.
link |
But we didn't just, we weren't good enough to discover gravitational waves.
link |
So, so we did another, we added another feature and it's something else that you're aware
link |
of probably have one and that is to get rid of noise.
link |
You've probably noise, which is, you don't like, and that's the same principle that's
link |
in these little Bose earphones.
link |
So, so how do they work?
link |
They basically, you go on an airplane and they sense the ambient noise from the engines
link |
and cancel it because it's just the same over and over again.
link |
And when the stewardess comes and asks you whether you want coffee or a tea or a drink
link |
or something, you hear her fine because she's not ambient.
link |
So are we talking about active canceling?
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I think we're actually.
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Don't tell me you have active canceling on this besides the shock absorbers.
link |
So inside this array of shock absorbers, we, you asked for some interesting.
link |
So inside this, it's harder than the, the earphone problem, but it's just engineering.
link |
We have to see measure not just that the engine still made noise, but the earth is shaking.
link |
It's moving in some direction.
link |
So we have to actually tell not only that there's noise and cancel it, but what direction
link |
So we put this array of seismometers inside this array of shock absorbers and measure the
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residual motion and its direction, and we put little actuators that push back against
link |
That's just awesome.
link |
So you have the actuators and you have the thing that is sensing the vibrations and
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then you have the actual actuators that adjust for that and do so in perfect synchrony.
link |
What if it all works right?
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And so how much do we reduce the shaking of the earth?
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I mean, one part in 10 to the 12th.
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One part in 10, what gets through us is one part in 10 to the 12th.
link |
That's pretty big reduction.
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You don't need that in your car, but that's what we do.
link |
And so that's how isolated we are from the earth.
link |
And that was the biggest, I'd say, technical problem outside of the physics instrument,
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the interferometer.
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Can I ask you a weird question here?
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We make it very poetically and humorously, just saying it's just a mechanical engineering
link |
But is this one of the biggest precision mechanical engineering efforts ever?
link |
I mean, this seems exceptionally difficult.
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And so it took a long time, and I think nobody seems to challenge the statement that this
link |
is the most precision, precise instrument that's ever been built, LIGO.
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I wonder what listening to Led Zeppelin sounds on this thing, because it's so isolated.
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I mean, this is like, I don't know.
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So when you were first conceiving this, I would probably, if I was knowledgeable enough,
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kind of laugh off the possibility that this is even possible.
link |
I'm sure, like, how many people believe that this is possible?
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Did you believe this is possible?
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I didn't know that we needed, for sure, that we needed active.
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When we started, we did just passive, but we were doing the tests to develop the active
link |
to add as a second stage, which we ended up needing.
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But there was a lot of, you know, now there was a lot of skepticism, a lot of us, especially
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astronomers, felt that money was being wasted, as we were also expensive doing what I told
link |
So it was kind of controversial, it was funded by the National Science Foundation.
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Can you just link on this just for a little longer, the actuator thing, the active cancelling?
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Do you remember, like, little experiments that were done along the way to prove to the team
link |
themselves that this is even possible?
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So from our, because I work with quite a bit of robots, and to me, the idea that you could
link |
do it this precisely is a humbling and embarrassing, frankly, because, like, this is another level
link |
of precision that I can't even, because robots are a mess.
link |
And this is basically one of the most precise robots ever, right?
link |
So like, can you, is there, do you have any, like, small scale experiments that were done
link |
that just, you know, this is possible?
link |
We made, we made a test, that also has to be in vacuum tube, but we made test chambers
link |
that had this system in it, our first mock of this system, so we could test it and optimize
link |
it and make it work.
link |
But it's just a mechanical engineering problem.
link |
Okay, humans are just ape descendants, I got you, I got you.
link |
Is there any video of this, like, some kind of educational purpose visualizations of this
link |
active cancelling?
link |
I don't think so, I mean, does this live on?
link |
Well, we work, for parts of it, for the active cancelling, we worked with, for the instruments,
link |
for the sensor and instruments, we worked with a small company near where you are, because
link |
it was RMIT people that got them that were, you know, interested in the problem because
link |
they thought they might be able to commercialize it for making stable tables to make microelectronics,
link |
for example, which are limited by how stable the table is.
link |
At this point, it's a little expensive.
link |
You never know where this leads.
link |
So, maybe on the, let me ask you, just sticking it a little longer, this silly old mechanical
link |
engineering problem, what was, to you, kind of the darkest moment of what was the hardest
link |
stumbling block to get over on the engineer side?
link |
Was there any time where there was a doubt, where it's like, I'm not sure we would be
link |
able to do this, a kind of engineering challenge that was hit?
link |
I think, though, one that my colleague at MIT, Ray Weiss, worked on so hard and was much
link |
more of a worry than this.
link |
This is only a question.
link |
If you do not do it well enough, you have to keep making it better somehow.
link |
But this whole huge instrument has to be in vacuum.
link |
And the vacuum tanks are, you know, this big around.
link |
And so, it's the world's biggest high vacuum system.
link |
And how do you make it, first of all, how do you make this four meter long sealed vacuum
link |
It has to be made out of...
link |
Four kilometers long.
link |
Four kilometers long, would I say something else?
link |
Four kilometers long.
link |
And so, but to make it, yeah, we started with a roll of stainless steel and then we roll
link |
it out like a spiral so that there's a spiral weld on it.
link |
So, the engineering was fine.
link |
We worked through very good companies and so forth to build it.
link |
But the big worry was, what if you develop a leak?
link |
This is a high vacuum, not just vacuum system.
link |
And in a laboratory, if there's a leak, you put helium around the thing you have and then
link |
you detect where the helium is coming in.
link |
But if you have something as big as this, you can't surround it with helium.
link |
So you might not actually even know that there's a leak and it will be affecting...
link |
Well, we can measure how good the vacuum is so we can know that.
link |
But there are leak and develop and then we don't...
link |
How do we find it?
link |
And so that was...
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You asked about a worry.
link |
That was always a really big worry.
link |
What's the difference between a high vacuum and a vacuum?
link |
What is high vacuum?
link |
That's like some delta of close to vacuum.
link |
Is there some threshold?
link |
Well, there's a unit.
link |
High vacuum is when the vacuum and the units that are used which are torsors, 10 to the
link |
And high vacuum is usually used in small places.
link |
The biggest vacuum system period is at CERN in this big particle accelerator.
link |
But the high vacuum where they need really good vacuum so particles don't scatter and
link |
is smaller than ours.
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So ours is a really large high vacuum system.
link |
I mean, this is basically by far the greatest listening device ever built by humans.
link |
The fact that descendants of apes could do this.
link |
That evolution started with single cell organisms.
link |
Is there any more...
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I'm a huge theorist, yeah, yeah.
link |
But like bridges, when I look at bridges from a civil engineering perspective is one of
link |
the most beautiful creations by human beings.
link |
With physics, you're using physics to construct objects that can support huge amount of mass.
link |
And it's like structural, but it's also beautiful and that humans can collaborate to create
link |
that throughout history.
link |
And then you take this on another level.
link |
This is like exciting to me beyond measure that humans can create something so precise.
link |
But another concept lost in this, you just said you started talking about single cell.
link |
You have to realize this discovery that we made that everybody's bought off on happened
link |
1.3 billion years ago, somewhere, and then the signal came to us 1.3 billion years ago,
link |
we were just converting on the earth from single cell to multi cell life.
link |
So when this actually happened, this collision of two black holes, we weren't here.
link |
We weren't even close to being here.
link |
We're both developing slowly.
link |
Well, yeah, we were going from single cell to multi cell life at that point.
link |
All to meet up at this point.
link |
That's almost romantic.
link |
So on the human side of things, it's kind of fascinating because you're talking about
link |
a over a thousand people team for LIGO that started out with around 100, and you for parts
link |
of the time at least led this team.
link |
What does it take to lead a team like this of incredibly brilliant theoreticians and engineers
link |
and just a lot of different parties involved, a lot of egos, a lot of ideas.
link |
You had this funny example, I forget where, where in publishing a paper, you have to all
link |
agree on the phrasing of a certain sentence or the title of the paper and so on.
link |
That's a very interesting, simple example.
link |
I'd love you to speak to that, but just in general, what does it take to lead this kind
link |
I think the general idea is one we all know.
link |
You want to, you want to, you want to get where the, the sum of something is more than
link |
the individual parts is what we say, right?
link |
So that's what you're trying to achieve.
link |
How do you do that actually?
link |
Mostly if we take multiple objects or people, I mean, you put them together, the sum is
link |
Because they overlap.
link |
So you don't have individual things that, you know, this person does that, this person
link |
does that, then you get exactly the sum.
link |
But what you want is to develop where you get more than what the individual contributions
link |
We know that's very common.
link |
People use that expression everywhere.
link |
And it's the expression that has to be kind of built into how people feel it's working.
link |
Because if you're part of a team and you realize that somehow the team is able to do more than
link |
the individuals could do themselves, then they buy on kind of in terms of the process.
link |
So that's the, that's the goal that you have to have is to, to achieve that.
link |
And that means that you have to realize parts of what you're trying to do that require
link |
not, that one person couldn't do it.
link |
It requires the combined talents to be able to do something that neither of them could
link |
And we have a lot of that kind of thing.
link |
And I think, I mean, build into the, some of the examples that I gave you.
link |
And so how do you then, so, so the key almost in anything you do is the people themselves,
link |
In our case, the first and most important was to attract, to spend years of their life
link |
on this, the best possible people in the world to do it.
link |
So the only way to convince them is that somehow it's better and more interesting for them
link |
than what they could do themselves.
link |
And so that's part of this idea.
link |
If there's best people in the world, there's egos.
link |
Is there something to be said about managing egos?
link |
Well, that's the human problem is always the hardest.
link |
And so there's, that's an art, not a science, I think.
link |
I think the fact here that combined, there's a, was a romantic goal that we had to do something
link |
that people hadn't done before, which was important scientifically and, and a huge challenge
link |
enabled us to say take and get, I mean, what we did just to take an example, we use the
link |
light to go in this thing comes from lasers.
link |
We need a certain kind of laser.
link |
So the kind of laser that we use, there were three different institutions in the world
link |
that had the experts that do this, maybe in competition with each other.
link |
So we got all three to join together and work with us to work on this as an example.
link |
So that you had, and they had the thing that they were working together on a kind of object
link |
that they wouldn't have otherwise, and we're part of a bigger team where they could discover
link |
something that isn't even engineers.
link |
These are engineers that do lasers.
link |
So, and they're part of our laser physicists.
link |
And so could you describe the moment or the period of time when finally this incredible
link |
creation of human beings led to a detection of gravitational waves?
link |
It's a long story, unfortunately, this is a part that we started failures along the
link |
way kind of thing or all failures, that's all that's built into it.
link |
If you're not, if you're not mechanical engineering, you build on your failures, that's expected.
link |
So we're trying things that no one's done before.
link |
So it's technically not just gravitational waves.
link |
And so it's built on failures.
link |
But anyway, we did before me, even the people did R&D on the concepts.
link |
But starting in 1994, we got money from the National Science Foundation to build this thing.
link |
It took about five years to build it.
link |
So by 1999, we had built the basic unit.
link |
It did not have active seismic isolation at that stage, didn't have some other things
link |
What we did at the beginning was stick to technologies that we had at least enough knowledge that
link |
we could make work or had tested in our own laboratories.
link |
And so then we put together the instrument.
link |
We made it work, it didn't work very well, but it worked, and we didn't see any gravitational
link |
Then we figured out what limited us, and we went through this every year for almost 10
link |
years, never seeing gravitational waves.
link |
We would run it, looking for gravitational waves for months, learn what limited us, fix
link |
it for months, and then run it again.
link |
Actually we knew we had to take another big step, and that's when we made several changes,
link |
including adding these active seismic isolation, which turned out to be a key.
link |
And we fortunately got the National Science Foundation to give us another couple hundred
link |
million dollars, 100 million more, and we rebuilt it, or improved it.
link |
And then in 2015, we turned it on, and we almost instantly saw this first collision
link |
of two black holes.
link |
And then we went through a process of, do we believe what we've seen?
link |
Yeah, I think you're one of the people that went through that process.
link |
It sounds like some people immediately believed it, and then you were like...
link |
So as human beings, we all have different reactions to almost anything, and so quite
link |
a few of my colleagues had a Eureka moment immediately.
link |
I mean, it's the figure that we put in our paper first is just data.
link |
We didn't have to go through fancy computer programs to do anything, and we showed next
link |
to it the calculations of Einstein's equations, and it looks just like what we detected.
link |
And we did it in two different detectors halfway across the US.
link |
So it was pretty convincing, but you don't want to fool yourself.
link |
So being a scientist, for me, we had to go through and try to understand that the instrument
link |
itself, which was new, I said we had rebuilt it, couldn't somehow generate things that
link |
That took some tests, and then the second, you'll appreciate more.
link |
We had to somehow convince ourselves we weren't hacked in some clever way.
link |
Cyber security question.
link |
Even though we're not on the internet, but...
link |
Yeah, no, it can be physical access too.
link |
Yeah, that's fascinating.
link |
It's fascinating that you would think about that.
link |
I mean, not enough, I mean, because it matches prediction.
link |
So the chances of it actually being manipulated is very, very low, but nevertheless...
link |
We still could have disgruntled all the graduate students who had worked with us earlier that...
link |
Who want you to, I don't know how that's supposed to embarrass you.
link |
I suppose, yeah, I suppose I see.
link |
But about what I think you said, within a month, you kind of convinced yourself sufficiently.
link |
Within a month, we convinced ourselves.
link |
We kept a thousand collaborators quiet during that time.
link |
Then we spent another month or so trying to understand what we'd seen so that we could
link |
do the science with it instead of just putting it out to the world and let somebody else
link |
understand that it was two black holes and what it was.
link |
The fact that a thousand collaborators were quiet is a really strong indication that this
link |
is a really close knit team.
link |
Yeah, and they're around the world, or either a strong knit or a tight knit or a strong
link |
dictatorship or something.
link |
Yeah, either fear or love, you can rule by fear or love, you can go back to Mackey Valley.
link |
All right, well, I mean, this is really exciting that that's a success story because it didn't
link |
have to be a success story, right?
link |
I mean, eventually, perhaps you could say it'll be an event, but it could have taken
link |
it over a century to get it.
link |
Oh, yeah, yeah, and it's only downhill now, kind of.
link |
What do you mean it's only, you mean with gravitational waves?
link |
Well, yeah, we've now, well, now we're off because of the pandemic, but when we turned
link |
off, we were seeing some sort of gravitational wave event each week.
link |
Now we're fixing, we're adding features where it'll probably be, when we turn back on next
link |
year, it'll probably be one every couple of days, and they're not all the same.
link |
So it's learning about what's out there in gravity instead of just optics.
link |
So it's all great.
link |
We're only limited by the fantastic thing other than that this is a great field and it's
link |
all new and so forth is that experimentally, the great thing is that we're limited by technology
link |
and technical limitations, not by science.
link |
So another really important discovery that was made before ours was what's called the
link |
Higgs boson, made on the big accelerator at CERN.
link |
This huge accelerator, they discovered a really important thing.
link |
We have Einstein's equation, E equals MC squared.
link |
So energy makes mass or mass can make energy and that's the bomb.
link |
But the mechanism by which that happens, not vision, but how do you create mass from energy
link |
was never understood until there was a theory of it about 70 years ago now.
link |
And so they discovered it's named after a man named Higgs, it's called the Higgs boson.
link |
And so it was discovered.
link |
But since that time, and I worked on those experiments, since that time they haven't
link |
been able to progress very much further, a little bit, but not a lot further.
link |
And the difference is that we're really lucky in what we're doing in that there you see
link |
this Higgs boson, but there's tremendous amount of other physics that goes on and you have
link |
to pick out the needle and the haystack kind of physics.
link |
You can't make the physics go away, it's there.
link |
In our case, we have a very weak signal, but once we get good enough to see it, it's weak
link |
compared to where we've reduced the background.
link |
But the background is not physics, it's just technology.
link |
It's getting ourselves better isolated from the earth or getting a more powerful laser.
link |
And so each time, since 2015, when we saw the first one, we continually can make improvements
link |
that are enabling us to turn this into a real science to do a new kind of astronomy.
link |
It's a little like astronomy, I mean Galileo started the field.
link |
I mean, he basically took lenses that were made for classes and he didn't invent the
link |
first telescope, but made a telescope, looked at Neptune and saw that it had four moons.
link |
That was the birth of not just using your eyes to understand what's out there.
link |
And since that time, we've made better and better telescopes, obviously, and astronomy
link |
And in a similar way, we're starting to be able to crawl, but we're starting to be able
link |
to do that with gravitational waves.
link |
And it's going to be more and more that we can do as we can make better and better instruments.
link |
Because as I say, it's not limited by picking it out of others.
link |
Yeah, it's not limited by the physics.
link |
So you have an optimism about engineering.
link |
As human progress marches on, engineering will always find a way to build a large enough
link |
device, accurate enough device to detect the physics.
link |
As long as it's not limited by physics, yeah, they'll do it.
link |
So you two other folks and the entire team won the Nobel Prize for this big effort.
link |
There's a million questions I can ask for, but looking back, where does the Nobel Prize
link |
fit into all of this?
link |
If you think hundreds of years from now, I venture to say that people will not remember
link |
the winners of a prize, but they'll remember creations like these.
link |
Maybe I'm romanticizing engineering, but I guess I want to ask how important is the
link |
Nobel Prize in all of this?
link |
Well, that's a complicated question.
link |
As a physicist, it's something, if you're trying to win a Nobel Prize, forget it because
link |
they give one a year.
link |
So there's been 200 physicists who have won the Nobel Prize since 1900, and so things
link |
just have to fall right.
link |
So your goal cannot be to win a Nobel Prize, it wasn't my dream.
link |
It's tremendous for science.
link |
Why the Nobel Prize for a guy that made dynamite and stuff is what it is.
link |
It's a long story, but it's the one day a year where actually the science that people
link |
have done is all over the world and so forth.
link |
Forget about the people again.
link |
It is really good for science.
link |
Celebrating science.
link |
It celebrates science for several days, different fields, chemistry, medicine, and so forth.
link |
Everybody doesn't understand everything about these.
link |
They're generally fairly abstract, but then it's on the front page of newspapers around
link |
So it's really good for science.
link |
It's not easy to get science on the front page of the New York Times.
link |
It's not there, it should be, but it's not.
link |
So the Nobel Prize is important in that way, otherwise, I have a certain celebrity that
link |
I didn't have before.
link |
And now you get to be a celebrity that advertises science.
link |
It's a mechanism to remind us how incredible, how much credit science deserves and everything
link |
Well, it has a little bit more.
link |
One thing I didn't expect, which is good, is that we have a government.
link |
I'm not picking on ours necessarily, but it's true of all governments are not run by scientists.
link |
In our case, it's run by lawyers and businessmen.
link |
And at best, they may have an aide or something that knows a little science.
link |
So our country is, and all countries are, hardly take into account science in making
link |
And having a Nobel Prize, the people in those positions actually listen.
link |
So you have more influence.
link |
I don't care whether it's about global warming or what the issue is, there's some influence
link |
which is lacking otherwise.
link |
And people pay attention to what I say.
link |
If I talk about global warming, they wouldn't have before I had the Nobel Prize.
link |
Yeah, this is very true.
link |
You're like the celebrities who talk.
link |
Celebrity has power.
link |
Celebrity has power.
link |
And that's important.
link |
And that's a good thing.
link |
That's a good thing, yeah.
link |
Singling out people, I mean, on the other side of it, singling out people has all kinds
link |
of, whether it's for Academy Awards or for this, have unfairness and arbitrariness and
link |
so forth and so on.
link |
So that's the other side of the coin.
link |
As you said, especially with the huge experimental projects like this, you know, it's a large
link |
team and it does the nature of the Nobel Prize is it singles out a few individuals to represent
link |
Nevertheless, it's a beautiful thing.
link |
What are ways to improve LIGO in the future, increase the sensitivity?
link |
I've seen a few ideas that are kind of fascinating.
link |
Is are you interested in them, sort of looking, I'm not speaking about five years, perhaps
link |
you could speak to the next five years, but also the next hundred years.
link |
So let me talk to both the instrument and the science.
link |
So that's, they go hand in hand.
link |
I mean, the thing that I said is if we make it better, we see more kinds of weaker objects
link |
and we do astronomy, okay?
link |
We're very motivated to make a new instrument, which will be a big step, the next step, like
link |
making a new kind of telescope person.
link |
And the ideas of what that instrument should be haven't converged yet.
link |
There's different ideas in Europe.
link |
They've done more work to kind of develop the ideas, but they're different from ours
link |
and we have ideas.
link |
So, but I think over the next few years, we'll develop those.
link |
The idea is to make an instrument that's at least 10 times better than what we have,
link |
what we can do with this instrument, 10 times better than that, 10 times better means you
link |
can look 10 times further out, 10 times further out is a thousand times more volume.
link |
So you're seeing much, much more of the universe.
link |
The big change is that if you can see far out, you see further back in history.
link |
You're traveling back in time.
link |
And so, we can start to do what we call cosmology instead of astronomy or astrophysics.
link |
Cosmology is really the study of the evolution of the...
link |
And so then you can start to hope to get to the important problems having to do with
link |
how the universe began, how it evolved and so forth, which we really only study now with
link |
optical instruments or electromagnetic waves.
link |
And early in the universe, those were blocked because basically it wasn't transparent.
link |
So the photons couldn't get out when everything was too dense.
link |
What do you think, sorry on this tangent, what do you think an understanding of gravitational
link |
waves from earlier in the universe can help us understand about the big bang and all that
link |
But it's another perspective on the thing.
link |
Is there some insights you think could be revealed just to help a layman understand?
link |
First, we don't understand.
link |
We use the word big bang.
link |
We don't understand the physics of what the big bang itself was.
link |
So I think in the early stage, there were particles and there was a huge amount of gravity and
link |
And so the big, so I'll say two things.
link |
One is how did it all start?
link |
How did it happen?
link |
And I'll give you at least one example that we don't understand, but we should understand.
link |
We don't know why we're here.
link |
I don't mean it philosophically.
link |
I mean it in terms of physics.
link |
Now, what do I mean by that?
link |
If I go into my laboratory at CERN or somewhere and I collide particles together or put energy
link |
together, I make as much antimatter as matter.
link |
Antimatter then annihilates matter and makes energy.
link |
So in the early universe, you made somehow a lot of matter and antimatter, but there
link |
Somehow there was more matter and antimatter than matter and antimatter annihilated each
link |
At least that's what we think.
link |
And there was only matter left over and we live in a universe that we see, this all matter.
link |
We don't have any idea.
link |
We have an ideas, but we don't have any way to understand that at the present time with
link |
the physics that we know.
link |
Can I ask a dumb question?
link |
Does antimatter have anything like a gravitational field to send signals?
link |
So how does this asymmetry of matter and antimatter could be investigated or further understood
link |
by observing gravitational fields or weirdnesses in gravitational fields?
link |
I think that in principle, if there were anti neutron stars instead of just neutron
link |
stars, we would see different kind of signals, but it didn't get to that.
link |
We live in a universe that we've done enough looking because we don't see antimatter,
link |
anti protons anywhere, no matter what we look at, that it's all made out of matter.
link |
There is no antimatter except when we go in our laboratories.
link |
But when we go in our laboratories, we make as much antimatter as matter.
link |
So there's something about the early universe that made this asymmetry.
link |
But we can't even explain why we're here.
link |
That's what I meant.
link |
Physics wise, not in terms of how we evolved and all that kind of stuff.
link |
So there might be inklings of the physics that gravitational waves look like?
link |
So gravitational waves don't get obstructed like light.
link |
So I said light only goes to 300,000 years.
link |
So it goes back to the beginning.
link |
So if you could study the early universe with gravitational waves, we can't do that yet.
link |
Then it took 400 years to be able to do that with optical.
link |
But then you can really understand the very, maybe understand the very early universe.
link |
So in terms of questions like why we're here or what the Big Bang was, we should be, we
link |
can in principle study that with gravitational waves.
link |
So to keep moving in this direction, it's a unique kind of way to understand our universe.
link |
So you think there's more Nobel Prize level ideas to be discovered in relation to?
link |
I'd be shocked if there, if there isn't, not even going to that, which is a very long
link |
But I think that we only see with electromagnetic waves 4% of what's out there.
link |
There must be, we looked for things that we knew should be there.
link |
There should be, I would be shocked if there wasn't physics, objects, science, and with
link |
gravity that doesn't show up in everything we do with telescopes.
link |
So I think we're just limited by not having powerful enough instruments yet to do this.
link |
Do you have a preference, I keep seeing this E. Lisa idea.
link |
Is it, do you have a preference for earthbound or space faring mechanisms for?
link |
They're complementary.
link |
It's a little bit like, it's completely analogous to what's been done in astronomy.
link |
So astronomy from the time of Galileo was done with visible light.
link |
The big advances in astronomy in the last 50 years are because we have instruments that
link |
look at the infrared, microwave, ultraviolet, and so forth.
link |
So looking at different wavelengths has been important.
link |
Basically going into space means that we'll look at instead of the audio band, which we
link |
look at, as we said on the Earth's surface, we'll look at lower frequencies.
link |
So it's completely complementary and it starts to be looking at different frequencies just
link |
like we do with astronomy.
link |
It seems almost incredible to me, engineering wise, just like on Earth, to send something
link |
that's kilometers across into space.
link |
Is that harder to engineer?
link |
It actually is a little different.
link |
It's three satellites separated by hundreds of thousands of kilometers.
link |
And they send a laser beam from one to the other.
link |
And if the triangle changes shape a little bit, they detect that from a passenger.
link |
Sorry, did you say hundreds of thousands of kilometers sending lasers to each other?
link |
It's just engineering.
link |
Is it possible, though, as a Google?
link |
That's just incredible because they have to maintain, I mean, the precision here is
link |
probably, there might be some more, what is it, maybe noise is a smaller problem.
link |
I guess there's no vibration to worry about like seismic stuff.
link |
So getting away from Earth, maybe you get away from the seismic stuff.
link |
Those parts are easier.
link |
I'm not sure it is accurately at low frequencies, but they have a lot of tough engineering problems.
link |
In order to detect that the gravitational waves affect things, the sensors have to be
link |
what we call free masses, just like ours, are isolated from the Earth.
link |
They have to isolate it from the satellite.
link |
And that's a hard problem.
link |
They have to do that pretty not as well as we have to do it.
link |
And they've done a test mission and the engineering seems to be at least in principle in hand.
link |
This will be in the 2030s, when it's like...
link |
This is incredible.
link |
This is incredible.
link |
Let me ask about black holes.
link |
So what we're talking about is observing orbiting black holes.
link |
I saw the terminology of like binary black hole systems.
link |
Binary black holes.
link |
That's when they're dancing.
link |
We're going around each other just like the Earth around the sun.
link |
Is that weird that there's black holes going around each other?
link |
So the finding binary systems of stars is similar to finding binary systems of black
link |
They're one stars.
link |
So we haven't said what a black hole is physically yet.
link |
What's a black hole?
link |
So black hole is first, it's a mathematical concept or a physical concept.
link |
And that is a region of space.
link |
So it's simply a region of space where the curvature of spacetime in the gravitational
link |
field is so strong that nothing can get out, including light.
link |
And there's light gets bent in gravitational, if the spacetime is warped enough.
link |
And so even light gets bent around and stays in it.
link |
So that's a concept of a black hole.
link |
And maybe you can make...
link |
Maybe that's a concept that didn't say how they come about.
link |
And there could be different ways they come about.
link |
The ones that we are seeing, we're not sure what we're trying to learn now is what they...
link |
But the general expectation is that they come...
link |
These black holes happen when a star dies.
link |
So what does that mean that a star dies?
link |
A star like our sun basically makes heat and light by fusion, it's made up.
link |
And as it burns, it burns up the hydrogen and then the helium and then slowly works its
link |
way up to the heavier and heavier elements that are in the star.
link |
And when it gets up to iron, the fusion process doesn't work anymore.
link |
And so the stars die and that happens to stars and then they do what's called a supernova.
link |
What happens then is that a star is a delicate balance between an outward pressure from fusion
link |
and light and burning and an inward pressure of gravity trying to pull the masses together.
link |
Once it burns itself out, it goes...
link |
And it collapses and that's a supernova.
link |
When it collapses, all the mass that was there is in a very much smaller space and if a star...
link |
If you do the calculations, if a star is big enough, that can create a strong enough gravitational
link |
field to make a black hole.
link |
Our sun won't, it's too small.
link |
And we don't know exactly what it...
link |
But it's usually thought that a star has to be at least three times as big as our sun
link |
to make a black hole.
link |
But that's the physical way there.
link |
You can make black holes.
link |
That's the first explanation that one would give for what we see, but it's not necessarily
link |
We're not sure yet.
link |
What we see in terms of the origin of the black holes?
link |
No, the black holes that we see in gravitational waves.
link |
So you're also looking for the ones who are binary solar systems?
link |
They're binary systems, but they could have been made from binary stars, so there's binary
link |
So the first explanation is that that's what they are.
link |
Other explanation, but what we see has some puzzles.
link |
This is kind of the way science works, I guess.
link |
We see heavier ones than up to...
link |
We've seen one system that was 140 times the mass of our own sun.
link |
That's not believed to be possible with the parent being a big star, because big stars
link |
can only be so big or they are unstable.
link |
It's just the fact that they live in an environment that makes them unstable.
link |
So the fact that we see bigger ones, they maybe come from something else.
link |
It's possible that they were made in a different way by little ones eating each other up, or
link |
maybe they were made, or maybe they came with the big bang, what we call primordial, which
link |
means they're really different.
link |
They came from that.
link |
We don't know at this point.
link |
If they came with a big bang, then maybe they account for what we call dark matter or some
link |
There was a lot of them, because there's a lot of dark matter, but gravitational waves
link |
give you any kind of intuition about the origin of these oscillating.
link |
We think that if we see the distributions enough of them, the distributions of their
link |
masses, the distributions of how they're spinning, so we can actually measure when they're going
link |
around each other, whether they're spinning like this or around.
link |
The direction of the spin?
link |
Or no, the orientation.
link |
Whether the whole system has any wobbles.
link |
So this is now, okay.
link |
And then you're constantly kind of crawling back and back in time.
link |
And we're crawling back in time and seeing how many there are as we go back.
link |
And so do they point back?
link |
So you're like, what is that discipline called, cartography or something?
link |
You're like mapping this, the early universe via the lens of gravitational waves.
link |
Not yet the early universe, but at least back in time earlier.
link |
So black holes are this mathematical phenomenon, but they come about in different ways.
link |
We have a huge black hole at the center of our galaxy and other galaxies.
link |
Those probably were made some other way.
link |
We don't know when the galaxies themselves had to do with the formation of the galaxies.
link |
We don't really know.
link |
So the fact that we use the word black hole, the origin of black holes might be quite different
link |
depending on how they happen.
link |
They just have to in the end have a gravitational field that will bend everything in.
link |
How do you feel about black holes as a human being?
link |
There's this thing that's nearly infinitely dense, doesn't let light escape.
link |
Isn't that kind of terrifying?
link |
It feels like the stuff of nightmares.
link |
I think it's an opportunity to do what exactly?
link |
So like the early universe is an opportunity.
link |
In fact, we can study the early universe.
link |
We can learn things like I told you.
link |
And here again, we have an embarrassing situation in physics.
link |
We have two wonderful theories of physics, one based on quantum mechanics, quantum field
link |
And we can go to a big accelerator like at CERN and smash particles together and almost
link |
explain anything that happens beautifully using quantum field theory and quantum mechanics.
link |
Then we have another theory of physics called general relativity, which is what we've been
link |
talking about most of the time, which is fantastic at describing things at high velocities,
link |
long distances, and so forth.
link |
So that's not the way it's supposed to be.
link |
We're trying to create a theory of physics, not two theories of physics.
link |
So we have an embarrassment that we have two different theories of physics.
link |
People have tried to make a unified theory, what they call a unified theory.
link |
You've heard those words for decades.
link |
They still haven't.
link |
That's been primarily done theoretically, or people actively do that.
link |
My personal belief is that like much of physics, we need some clues.
link |
So we need some experimental evidence.
link |
So where is their place?
link |
If we go to CERN and do those experiments, gravitational waves or general relativity
link |
If we go to study our black holes, elementary particle physics doesn't matter.
link |
We're studying these huge objects.
link |
So where might we have a place where both phenomenon have to be satisfied?
link |
An example is black holes.
link |
Inside black holes.
link |
So we can't do that today.
link |
But when I think of black hole, it's a potential treasure chest of understanding the fundamental
link |
problems of physics and maybe can give us clues to how we bring to the embarrassment
link |
of having two theories of physics together.
link |
That's my own romantic idea.
link |
What's the worst that could happen?
link |
Just go in and look.
link |
Do you think how far are we away from figuring out the unified theory of physics, the theory
link |
What's your sense?
link |
Who will solve it?
link |
Like what discipline will solve it?
link |
I think so little progress has been made without more experimental clues, as I said, that we're
link |
just not able to say that we're close without some clues.
link |
The best, the closest, the most popular theory these days that might lead to that is called
link |
The problem with string theory is it solves a lot of beautiful mathematical problems we
link |
have in physics, and it's very satisfying theoretically, but it has almost no predictive,
link |
maybe no predictive ability, because it is a theory that works in 11 dimensions.
link |
We live in a physical world of three space and one time dimension.
link |
In order to make predictions in our world with string theory, you have to somehow get
link |
rid of these other seven dimensions.
link |
That's done mathematically by saying they curl up on each other on scales that are too
link |
small to affect anything here, but how you do that, and that's okay, that's an okay argument,
link |
but how you do that is not unique.
link |
So that means if I start with that theory and I go to our world here, I can't uniquely
link |
Which means it's not predictive.
link |
It's not predictive.
link |
And that's actually a killer.
link |
And string theory is, it seems like from my outsider's perspective is lost favor over
link |
the years, perhaps because of this very idea.
link |
Yeah, it's a lack of predictive power.
link |
I mean, science has to connect to something where you make predictions as beautiful as
link |
So I don't think we're close.
link |
I think we need some experimental clues.
link |
It may be that information on something we don't understand presently at all like dark
link |
energy or probably not dark matter, but dark energy or something might give us some ideas.
link |
But I don't think we're, I can't envision right now in the short term, meaning the horizon
link |
that we can see how we're going to bring these two theories together.
link |
A kind of two part question, maybe just asking the same thing in two different ways.
link |
One question is, do you have hope that humans will colonize the galaxy, so expand out become
link |
a multi planetary species?
link |
Another way of asking that from a gravitational and a propulsion perspective, do you think
link |
we'll come up with ways to travel closer to the speed of light or maybe faster than the
link |
speed of light, which would make it a whole heck of a lot easier to expand out into the
link |
Well, I think, you know, we're not, that's very futuristic.
link |
I think we're not that far from being able to make a one way trip to Mars.
link |
That's then a question of whether people are willing to send somebody on a one way trip.
link |
Oh, I think they are.
link |
I think there's a lot of the explorers burn bright with their hearts.
link |
There's a lot of people willing to die, but the opportunity to explore new territory.
link |
So, you know, this recent landing on Mars is pretty impressive.
link |
They have a little helicopter that can fly around.
link |
You can imagine, you can imagine in the not too distant future that you could have, I
link |
don't think civilizations colonizing, I can envision, but I can envision something more
link |
like the South Pole.
link |
We haven't colonized Antarctica because it's all ice and cold and so forth, but we have
link |
So we have a station that's self sustaining at the South Pole that I've been there.
link |
What's that like because there's parallels there to go to Mars.
link |
What's the journey like?
link |
The journey involves going, the South Pole station is run in the U.S. by the National
link |
Science Foundation.
link |
I went because I was on the National Science Board that runs the National Science Foundation.
link |
So you get a VIP trip if you're healthy enough to the South Pole to see it, which I took.
link |
You fly from the U.S. to Australia, to Christchurch in Southern Australia, and from there you
link |
fly to McMurdo Station, which is on the coast, and it's the station with about a thousand
link |
people right on the coast of Antarctica.
link |
It's about a seven or eight hour flight, and they can't predict the weather.
link |
So when I flew from Christchurch to McMurdo Station, they tell you in advance, you do
link |
it in a military aircraft, they tell you in advance that they can't predict whether they
link |
can land because they have to land on ice.
link |
That's reassuring.
link |
And so about halfway, the pilot got on and said, sorry, they call it a boomerang flight.
link |
Boomerang goes out and goes back.
link |
So we had to stay a little while in Christchurch, but then we eventually went to McMurdo Station
link |
and then flew to the South Pole.
link |
The South Pole itself is, when I was there, it was minus 51 degrees.
link |
It has zero humidity, and it's about 11,000 feet altitude because it's never warm enough
link |
for anything to melt, so it doesn't snow very much, but it's about 11,000 feet of snowpack.
link |
So you land in a place that's high altitude, cold as could be, and incredibly dry, which
link |
means you have a physical adjustment.
link |
The place itself is fantastic.
link |
They have this great station there.
link |
They do astronomy at the South Pole.
link |
Which of wise is it beautiful, what's the experience like, or is it like visiting any
link |
No, it's very small.
link |
There's only less than 100 people there, even when I was there.
link |
There were about 50 or 60 there, and in the winter, there's less, half of that.
link |
It gets real cold.
link |
It gets really cold, yeah.
link |
But it's a station, and I think, and that's, I mean, we haven't gone beyond that.
link |
On the coast of Antarctica, they have greenhouses and they're self sustaining in McMurdo station,
link |
but we haven't really settled more than that kind of thing in Antarctica, which is a big
link |
country, a big plot, a big piece of land.
link |
I can't envision colonizing people living so much as much as I can see of the equivalent
link |
of the South Pole station.
link |
In the computing world, there's an idea of backing up your data, and then you want to
link |
do offsite backup to make sure that if your whole house burns down, that you can have
link |
a backup offsite of the data.
link |
I think the difference between Antarctica and Mars is Mars is an offsite backup, that
link |
if we have nuclear war, whatever the heck might happen here on Earth, it'd be nice to
link |
have a backup elsewhere, and it'd be nice to have a large enough colony where we sent
link |
a variety of people, except a few silly astronauts in suits, have an actual vibrant, get a few
link |
musicians and artists up there, get a few, maybe like one or two computer scientists,
link |
those are essential, maybe even a physicist, but I'm not sure.
link |
That comes back to something you talked about earlier, which is the paradox, family's paradox,
link |
because you talked about having to escape, and so the missing, one number you don't know
link |
how to use in Fermi's calculation or Drake who's done it better, is how long do civilizations
link |
last before we barely got into where we can communicate with electricity and magnetism,
link |
and maybe we'll wipe ourselves out pretty soon.
link |
Are you hopeful in general?
link |
Do you think we've got another couple hundred years at least, or are you worried?
link |
Well, no, I'm hopeful, but I don't know if I'm hopeful in the long term.
link |
If you say, are we able to go for another couple thousand years, I'm not sure.
link |
We have, where we started, the fact that we can do things that don't allow us to kind
link |
of keep going, or there can be, whether it ends up being a virus that we create or ends
link |
up being the equivalent of nuclear war or something else, it's not clear that we can
link |
control things well enough.
link |
So speaking of really cold conditions and not being hopeful and eventual suffering and
link |
destruction of the human species, let me ask you about Russian literature.
link |
You mentioned, how's that for a transition, I'm doing my best here.
link |
You mentioned that you used to love literature when you were younger, or hoping to be a writer
link |
yourself, that was the motivation.
link |
And some of the books I've seen that you listed that were inspiring to you was from Russian
link |
literature, I think Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Solzhenitsyn.
link |
Maybe in general, you can speak to your fascination with Russian literature, or in general, will
link |
you pick up from those?
link |
Not surprised you picked up on the Russian literature, your background, but still.
link |
You should be surprised that they didn't make the entire conversation about this.
link |
That's the real surprise.
link |
And I didn't really become a physicist or want to go in science until I started college.
link |
So when I was younger, I was good at math and that kind of stuff, but I didn't really,
link |
I came from a family that didn't know what he went to college and I didn't have any mentors.
link |
But I'd like to read when I was really young.
link |
And so when I was very young, I read, I always carried it around a pocketbook and read it.
link |
And my mother read these mystery stories and I got bored by those eventually.
link |
And then I discovered real literature.
link |
I don't know at what age, but about 12 or 13.
link |
And so then I started reading good literature and there's nothing better than Russian literature,
link |
I was reading good literature, so I read quite a bit of Russian literature at that time.
link |
And so you asked me about, well, I don't know, say a few words, Dostoevsky.
link |
So what about Dostoevsky?
link |
For me, Dostoevsky was important in two, I mean, I've read a lot of literature because
link |
it's kind of the other thing I do with my life.
link |
And he made two incredible, in addition to his own literature, he influenced literature
link |
tremendously by having, I don't know how to pronounce, polyphony.
link |
So he's the first real serious author that had multiple narrators.
link |
And that's a, he absolutely is the first.
link |
And he also was the first, he began existential literature.
link |
So the most important book that I've read in the last year when I've been forced to
link |
be isolated was existential literature, it was, I decided to reread Camus the Plague.
link |
Oh, yeah, that's a great book.
link |
It's a great book and it's right now to read it.
link |
I think that book is about love, actually.
link |
Love for humanity.
link |
It is, but it has all the, it has all the, if you haven't read it in recent years, I'd
link |
read it before, of course, but to read it during this, because it's about a plague.
link |
So it's really fantastic to read now, but that reminds me of, you know, he was a great
link |
existentialist, but the beginning of existential literature was Dostoevsky.
link |
So in addition to his own, you know, great novels, he had a tremendous impact on literature.
link |
And there's also, for Dostoevsky, unlike most of their existentialists, he was at least
link |
in part religious.
link |
I mean, their religiosity permeated his idea.
link |
I mean, one of my favorite books of his is The Idiot, which is a Christlike figure in
link |
Well, there's Prince Mishkin, is that a saying?
link |
Prince Mishkin, yeah.
link |
That's one thing about, you read it in English, I presume.
link |
So that's the names.
link |
That's what gets a lot of people.
link |
There's so many names.
link |
It's so hard to pronounce.
link |
You have to remember all of them.
link |
It's like, you have the same problem.
link |
But he was a great character, so that, yeah.
link |
I kind of, I have a connection with him, because I often, the title of the book, The Idiot,
link |
is, I kind of, I often call myself an idiot, because that's how I feel.
link |
I feel so naive about this world.
link |
And I'm not sure why that is, maybe it's genetic or so on, but I have a connection, a spiritual
link |
connection to that character.
link |
But he was far from an idiot.
link |
No, in some sense, in some sense.
link |
But in another sense, maybe not of this world.
link |
In another sense, he was, I mean, he was a bumbler or bungler.
link |
But you also mentioned Solzhenitsyn, very interesting.
link |
And he always confused me.
link |
Of course, he was really, really important in writing about Stalin, and first getting
link |
And then, later, he wrote about Stalin in a way, I forget what the book was, in a way
link |
that was very critical of Lenin.
link |
Yeah, he's evolved through the years, and he actually showed support for Putin eventually.
link |
It was a very interesting transition he took, no, journey he took through thinking about
link |
Russia and the Soviet Union.
link |
But I think what I get from him is basic, it's like Viktor Frankl has this man search
link |
A similar kind of sense of the cruelty of human nature, cruelty of indifference, but
link |
also the ability to find happiness in the small joys of life.
link |
That's something, there's nothing like a prison camp that makes you realize you could
link |
still be happy with a very, very little.
link |
Well, yeah, he was, his description of how to make, how to go through a day and actually
link |
enjoy it in a prison camp is pretty amazing, and some prison camp, I mean, it's the worst
link |
The worst of the worst.
link |
And also just, I do think about the role of authoritarian states and hopeful idealistic
link |
systems somehow leading to the suffering of millions.
link |
And I, you know, this might be arguable, but I think a lot of people believe that Stalin,
link |
I think genuinely believed that he's doing good for the world.
link |
And he wasn't, it's a very valuable lesson that even evil people think they're doing
link |
Otherwise it's too difficult to do the evil.
link |
The best way to do evil is to believe framing it in a way like you're doing good.
link |
And this is, this is a very clear picture of that, which is the gulags.
link |
The Solzhenitsyn is one of the best people to reveal that.
link |
The most recent thing I read, it isn't actually fiction, was the, the woman, I can't remember
link |
her name, who got the Nobel Prize about, within the last five years.
link |
I don't know whether she's Ukrainian or Russian, but their interviews, have you read that?
link |
Interview of Ukrainian survivors of, well, I think she may be originally Ukrainian.
link |
The books written in Russian and translated in English and many of the interviews are
link |
in Moscow and places, but she won the Nobel Prize within the last five years or so.
link |
But what's interesting is that these are people of all different ages, all different occupations
link |
and so forth, and they're reflecting on the, their reaction to basically the present Soviet
link |
system, the system they lived with before.
link |
There's a lot of looking back by a lot of them with, well, it being much better before.
link |
I don't know what, in America, we think we know the right answer.
link |
What it means to be, to build a better world.
link |
I think we're all just trying to figure it out.
link |
We're doing our best.
link |
I think you're right.
link |
Is there advice you can give to young people today, besides reading Russian literature
link |
at a young age, about how to find their way in life, how to find success in career or
link |
just life in general?
link |
I, I just, my own belief, it may not be very deep, but I believe it.
link |
I think you should follow your dreams and you should have dreams and follow your dreams,
link |
if you can, to the extent that you can.
link |
And we spend a lot of our time doing something with ourselves, in my case, physics, in your
link |
case, I don't know, whatever it is, machine learning and this.
link |
Uh, we should, yeah, should have fun.
link |
What was, wait, wait, wait, follow your dreams.
link |
What, uh, what dream did you have?
link |
Because there's, well, well, originally I was, yeah, because you didn't follow your
link |
I thought you were supposed to be right.
link |
Well, that's, I changed along the way.
link |
I was going to be, okay.
link |
That was what happened.
link |
Oh, I read, I decided to take the most serious literature course in my high school, which
link |
I'd probably be a second rate writer now and, uh, could be a Nobel Prize winning writer.
link |
And, uh, uh, the, uh, the book that we read, even though I had read Russian novels, I was
link |
15, I think, uh, cured me from being a novelist.
link |
Destroyed your dream.
link |
What was the book?
link |
And so I, I've read it since and it's a, it's a great novel.
link |
Maybe it's as good as the Russian novel.
link |
I've never made it through.
link |
I, I, well, it was too, well, it was too long.
link |
Your words are going to mesh with what I say.
link |
And you may have the same problem at, uh, all the way, that's where I'm not a writer.
link |
So the problem is Moby Dick is, uh, what I remember was there was a chapter that was
link |
maybe a hundred pages long, all describing this why there was Ahab and the white whale.
link |
And it was the battle between Ahab with his wooden peg leg and the white whale.
link |
And there was a chapter that was a hundred pages long in my memory.
link |
I don't know how long it really was, uh, that described in detail, though, great white whale
link |
and what he was doing and what his fins were like and this and that.
link |
And it was so incredibly boring, the word you used that I thought if this is great literature,
link |
And now why did I have a problem?
link |
I know now in reflection because I still read a lot and I, I read that, uh, novel, um,
link |
you know, after I was 30 or 40 years old and the problem was simple.
link |
I, I diagnosed what the problem was.
link |
I, that novel in contrast to the Russian novels, which are very realistic and, you know, point
link |
of view is one huge metaphor.
link |
At 15 years old, I probably didn't know the word and I certainly didn't know the meaning
link |
Like, why do I care about a fish?
link |
Why are you telling me all about this exactly is one big metaphor.
link |
So reading it later as a metaphor, I could really enjoy it, but the teacher gave me the
link |
wrong book or maybe it was the right book because I went into physics and so, uh, but
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it was, it was truly, I think I may oversimplify, but it was really that I was too young to
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read that book because not too young to read the Russian novels, interestingly, but too
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young to read that because I, I probably didn't even know the word and I certainly didn't
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understand it as a metaphor.
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Well in terms of fish, I recommend people read old man and the sea much shorter, much
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better, still a metaphor though, so, but you can read it just as a story about a guy catching
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a fish and it's still fun to read.
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I had the same experience as you, not with Moby Dick, but later in college, I took a
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course on James Joyce, I don't know why, as majoring in computer science, I took a course
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on James Joyce and I was kept being told that he is widely considered by many considered
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to be the greatest literary writer of the 20th century and I kept reading like, I think,
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so his short story is The Dead, I think it's called, it was very good, well not very good,
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but pretty good and then Ulysses, it is very good, only The Dead, the final story, it still
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rings with me today, but then Ulysses was, I got through Ulysses with the help of some
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Cliff Notes and so on, but and so I did Ulysses and then Finnegan's Wake, the moment I started
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Finnegan's Wake, I said, this is stupid, this is, that's when I went full into like, I don't
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know, that's when I went full Kafka, Bukowski, like people who just talk about the darkness
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of the human condition in the fewest words possible and without any of the music of language,
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so it was a turning point as well, I wonder, I wonder when is the right time to do the,
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to appreciate the beauty of language, like even Shakespeare, I was very much off put
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by Shakespeare in high school and only later I started to appreciate, it's value in the
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same way, let me ask you a ridiculous question, okay, I mean, because you've read our literature,
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let me ask this one last question, I might be lying, there might be a couple more, but
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what do you think is the meaning of this whole thing?
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You're, you got a Nobel Prize for looking out into the, trying to reach back into the
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beginning of the universe, listening to the gravitational waves, but that still doesn't
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answer the why, why are we here, beyond just the matter and anti matter, the philosophical
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The philosophical question about the meaning of life I'm probably not really good at, I
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think that the individual meaning, I would say rather simplistically is whether you've
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made a difference, a positive difference I'd say for anything besides yourself, meaning
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you could have been important to other people or you could have discovered gravitational
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waves that matters to other people or something, but something beyond just existing on the
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earth as an individual.
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So your life has meaning if you have affected either knowledge or people or something beyond
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That's a simplistic statement, but it's about as good as I am.
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That may, in all of its simplicity, it may be very true.
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Do you think about, does it make you sad that this ride ends?
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Do you think about your mortality?
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Are you afraid of it?
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Not exactly afraid of it, but saddened by it and I'm old enough to know that I've lived
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most of my life and I enjoy being alive.
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I can imagine being sick and not wanting to be alive, but I'm not.
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So I'm not happy to see it come to an end, I'd like to see it prolong, but I don't fear
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the dying itself or that kind of thing.
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It's more, I'd like to prolong what is, I think, a good life that I'm living and still
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It's sad to think that the finiteness of it is the thing that makes it special and also
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sad to me, at least it's kind of, I don't think I'm using too strong of a word, but
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it's kind of terrifying the uncertainty of it, the mystery of it.
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The mystery of death.
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The mystery of death.
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When we're talking about the mystery of black holes that's somehow distant, that's somehow
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out there, and the mystery of our own.
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But even life, the mystery of consciousness I find so hard to deal with too.
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I mean, it's not as painful, I mean, we're conscious, but the whole magic of life we
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can understand but consciousness where we can actually think and so forth, it's pretty
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it's such, it seems like such a beautiful gift that it really sucks that we get to let
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We'll have to let go of it.
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What do you hope your legacy is?
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As I'm sure they will, aliens when they visit and humans have destroyed all of human civilization,
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aliens read about you in an encyclopedia that will leave behind, what do you hope it
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Well, I would hope they, to the extent that they evaluated me, felt that I helped move
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science forward as a tangible contribution and that I served as a good role model for
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how humans should live their lives.
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And we're part of creating one of the most incredible things humans have ever created.
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So yes, there's the science, that's the Fermi thing, right?
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And the instrument, I guess.
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And the instrument.
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The instrument is a magical creation, not just by a human, by a collection of humans.
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The collaboration is, that's humanity at its best.
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I do hope, I do hope we last quite a bit longer, but if we don't, this is a good thing to remember
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humans by, at least they built that thing.
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That's pretty impressive.
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Barry, this was an amazing conversation.
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Thank you so much for wasting your time and explaining so many things so well.
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I appreciate your time today.
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Thanks for listening to this conversation with Barry Barish.
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To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.
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And now, let me leave you some words from Warner Heisenberg, a theoretical physicist
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and one of the key pioneers of quantum mechanics.
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Not only is the universe stranger than we think, it is stranger than we can think.
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Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.