back to indexNiels Jorgensen: New York Firefighters and the Heroes of 9/11 | Lex Fridman Podcast #220
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The following is a conversation with Niels Jorgensen,
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a New York firefighter for over 21 years
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who was there at Ground Zero on September 11th, 2001.
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He was forced to retire because of the leukemia
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he contracted from cleaning up Ground Zero.
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This podcast tells his story,
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and the story of other great men and women
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who were there that day.
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Some of the stories we talk about
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are part of a new limited podcast series
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that Niels hosts called 20 for 20,
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with 20 episodes for the 20 years since 9 11.
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To support this podcast,
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please check out our sponsors in the description.
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As a side note, please allow me to say a few words
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about the terrorist attacks on September 11th, 2001.
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I was in downtown Chicago on that day,
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lost in the mundane busyness of an early Tuesday morning.
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At that time, I was already fascinated by human nature,
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the best and the worst of it,
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exploring it through the study of history and literature.
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In the years before, as a young boy growing up in Russia,
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I saw chaos, uncertainty, and desperation
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in the Soviet Union of the 1990s,
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wrapping up a century of war and suffering.
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But after coming to America for me,
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there was a sense of hope, like all of it was behind us,
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a bad dream to be forgotten
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as we enter into the new century.
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On 9 11, when I saw the news
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of the second plane hitting the towers,
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my sense of hope had changed.
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I understood that the 21st century,
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like the century before, would too have its tragedies,
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its evildoers, its wars, and its suffering.
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And unlike the history books,
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these stories will involve all of us.
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They will involve me in however small
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and insignificant a role,
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but one that nevertheless carries the responsibility
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I became an American that day, a citizen of the world.
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I felt the common humanity in all of us.
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I felt the unity and the love in the days that followed.
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And I think most of the world shared in this feeling
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that we are all in this together.
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Evil cannot defeat the human spirit.
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There were many heroes sung and unsung on that day
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and in the years after.
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Often politicians fail to rightfully honor the service
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and sacrifice of these heroes.
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There's much I could say about that,
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but I don't want to waste my words
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on the failures of weak leaders.
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Instead, I want to say thank you
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to the men and women who rushed to Ground Zero to help,
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who put on a uniform to serve,
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who make me proud to be an American and a human being,
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and give me hope about the future of our civilization
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here on a small spinning rock
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that despite the long odds
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keeps kindling the fire of human consciousness and love.
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This is the Lex Friedman podcast
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and here is my conversation with Niels Jorgensen.
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Take me through the day of September 11th, 2001
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as you experienced it, as you lived it.
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September 11th, 2001 was a bright, beautiful,
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sunny Tuesday morning.
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It was a late summer.
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There's a lot of folks who go to the beaches in New Jersey
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and call it the short summer.
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Everybody's left there for Labor Day,
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but it's still beautiful enough to enjoy the weather.
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I left my house about 6.30 in the morning
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and my four and a half year old daughter said to me,
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daddy, which truck are you driving today, the fire truck,
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the oil truck, or the boar's head truck?
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Because I had three jobs at the time.
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Most New York City firefighters and police officers, EMS,
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we don't make the most amount of money.
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So in order to live in that city, you have to hustle.
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And my wife stayed at home raising the children.
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So my daughter said, oh, so you should be safe
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because you're on the oil truck.
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I told her I was going on the oil truck that day.
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So she said, you should be safe today, daddy.
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So I left and worked for this great company
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on the North Shore, Staten Island, Quinlan Fuel.
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Very nice people, treated me very well.
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And it was my first day back actually for the winter season.
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Usually get laid off a couple months in the summer
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because things, you know, too hot to need oil.
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So I took the truck, started my route that day
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and plane to New Jersey.
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And plane hit the tower.
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So initially I'm like, oh, it's probably
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some silly Lear jet pilot.
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And he veered off track to get a better picture
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for a client and he hit the building.
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Probably hit a, you know, bad turbulence, gust of wind.
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It's very windy down in that area in Manhattan.
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So that was my first thought.
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Can we pause there for a second?
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So 6.30 a.m. you wake up, you leave,
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and then the plane hits at 8.45 a.m.
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It's just interesting how you phrase it.
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So how did you hear that a plane hit something?
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I'm a big news radio guy, news guy, bit of a buff.
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I've been that way since I was a kid
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and I had the news radio on the local New York radio station.
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And as I was driving the truck,
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I heard, you know, an emergency report.
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This just in, aircraft has just struck
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the World Trade Center.
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And where Quinlan's is located,
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it's on the north rim of Staten Island,
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which is right on New York Harbor.
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And you could see Statue of Liberty,
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you know, a mile or two away in your distance.
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And then past that is the towers.
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So I just literally stopped the truck and looked out
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and I saw the smoke.
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So there was smoke?
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Oh, it was dark, black smoke.
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It was just, yeah, I mean,
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it was burning fully at that point.
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Did you have fear of what the hell happened?
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Or is it? I was initially scared
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for anybody involved.
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I realized, I said, there's gonna be lots of fatalities,
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obviously, depending on the size of the aircraft.
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And, you know, the business day there
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had started probably at 8, 8.30.
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So those buildings should have been packed at that moment.
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So that was a thought that crossed my mind.
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But from our being responder perspective,
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if you're off duty, normally you do not go to a scene
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that they don't want you to
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because of accountability and safety.
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The on duty platoon will handle it.
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And if it's something very horrific,
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then they will have something called a recall,
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which is any police firefighter or EMS personnel
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is obligated to go to their command immediately,
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check in with, you know, their command to get their gear
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and stand by and await orders for deployment
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or to remain in that command for routine duties.
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How often throughout history have there been recalls?
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I believe the one prior to that was like in the 1968 riots,
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possibly, and then maybe in the 70s,
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there was another blackout and riots.
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And I remember my dad talking about it.
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And he actually always said,
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just remember if something bad's going down,
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don't just rush in, you will wait the recall.
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Or at the very least, if there isn't a recall,
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you get to your firehouse.
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And because if you show up somewhere,
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there's a good chance that no one knows you're there.
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And now you, in your well intended movements,
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you get lost or trapped or no one's looking for you.
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So that's the whole thing with, you know, checking in.
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And now you're with a squad or, you know, group of guys
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and everyone knows, you know,
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hey, there's Nels, there's Lex.
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Okay, they're on, you know, this team.
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So I said, all right, they're not gonna need us.
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It's probably gonna be a fifth alarm.
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And you know, there'll be 250 firefighters there.
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They'll handle it.
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It's gonna be a bad day for those guys,
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but you know, our guys take on some heavy stuff
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and they'll be fine.
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A few minutes later, the second plane hit
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and I knew immediately, I'm like, okay, we're under attack.
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So I just flew the truck back in.
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I told my boss, I have to go.
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He understood, he knew something was way wrong
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and I just was flying.
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At the time, I actually had a yellow Volkswagen Beetle,
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kind of a goofy car to be driving, but I loved it.
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So for people who are just listening,
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you're kind of a big guy.
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Well, yeah, I definitely need to lose about 50 pounds.
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No, I don't mean in that way, your frame, big hands.
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As my beloved friend, Bobby Adams would say to me,
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I was driving around in a clown wagon
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and he also says, I have a waving hairdo, waving bye bye.
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But yeah, he's a great friend.
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Yeah, so I took the Volkswagen and I flew in
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and I was heading over to Verrazano Bridge
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and hit the Brooklyn Queens Expressway.
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And my phone rang and my wife normally doesn't curse
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or raise a voice and she was yelling at me.
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And she said, don't go in there, go to your firehouse.
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Well, first she asked, well, she knew I was on the way,
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but she just wanted to know where.
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And I said, I'm on the curve, which is 65th Street
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on the Brooklyn Queens Expressway called Dead Man's Curve.
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We actually used to do a lot of car wrecks up there.
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And I was hitting that curve pretty fast.
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And then right around the curve is the exit to the firehouse.
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And I had to decide, well, am I driving right in
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to the battery tunnel to the city
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or am I going to the firehouse?
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And then I said, but I have no gear.
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I'm gonna be ineffective.
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How do I show up with no gear, no protection, you know?
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So she said, do what your dad would follow the recall,
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go to the firehouse.
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And I hung up the phone, said, I love you, gotta go.
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And I did, I went to the firehouse
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and I'm glad I listened to her.
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I had my father ringing in my ears.
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My dad, beautiful guy, he's 82.
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He did 34 years in the New York City Fire Department.
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He came down on end stage, non
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and he's 38 back in, going on 39, 1978.
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And this guy, he's my hero.
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He was gonna die, they sent him home.
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They said, there's really not much we can do.
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Go get your affairs in order.
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And he says, but doc, I have three young kids.
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And she called him a couple hours later.
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She said, I got in touch with Sloan Kettering
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and they have a new drug.
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So I'll take you to the hospital.
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and do the same exact reverse route
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and he'd get to the cancer center
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and my mom would meet him and he'd get his infusion
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and within two hours he'd be violently ill
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for a few days, really badly ill.
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And I just remember, yeah, I was 10 years old
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and he just had to have the room darkened out
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and he'd be so sick and I'd just go in
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and wipe the vomit on his face,
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just try to give him a little water
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but he couldn't take it down because he'd throw it up.
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And maybe on Saturday he'd start coming around a little bit,
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drink down a little bit of tea
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and on Sunday morning he'd put his robe on
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and he'd go down, mom would make him black coffee and toast
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and he'd sit up, watch the news, watch a game
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and then Monday morning he'd go back to work.
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He did that for four years.
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And he's 82 and he's still here.
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You said that your dad's a man of a few words
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but when he talks, they're profound.
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So what words were ringing in your ear
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when you were driving?
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I just always remember him saying,
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kid, they give the recall, you go to the firehouse,
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you don't go where you think you should,
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you go to the firehouse, you follow your orders.
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So do the smart thing, do your job.
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And every time we'd hang up the phone,
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it's fireman talk, he'd say, I love you, keep low.
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My dad couldn't tell me he loved me
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until I told him when I first got on a fire
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upon when I was 22 and my dad grew up in a tough household.
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My granddad was a good man, but a tormented man.
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He was sent away from home at 12 years old.
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He was from Denmark and I'm named after him, Grandpa Nils.
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And I think his demons took up a large part of his life.
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His anger, whatever it was, his fear.
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We got the sense that maybe when he was a child,
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he was an apprentice baker,
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living with strangers, working for them.
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And we think maybe he was abused
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and that's why he took it out on my dad
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and my grandma and my aunts.
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But they made it up to each other
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at the end of my granddad's life.
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My granddad turned out to be the best grandfather ever.
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I think he tried to heal and heal everyone
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by his change of behavior.
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So he's proof that you can change,
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you can improve if you work on it.
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But I know I'm going off track here, but.
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But you were man enough in your,
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you say in your 20s to tell your dad.
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And my dad, I got on a job.
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He said, how'd it go, kid?
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That was the tour, we called it Tour of Duty.
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I said, oh, dad, it was great, it was great, I love it.
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And he goes, well, just remember, you keep low,
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you always keep low.
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And keep low means you stay down below the flames,
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if a room flashes over and it's burning,
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if you stay up high, you're gonna get burned badly.
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But if you get down on your belly and you crawl,
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So he'd always say that when he'd hang up the phone.
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And I said, well, I love you, pop.
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And he says, well, thanks, kid.
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I said, well, you can say it too.
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Oh, nice, you pressured him.
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And he did, and he said it.
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And now every time we talk, he says it.
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So, you know, they talk about masculinity and whatnot.
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And my dad is one of those tough, tough guys
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And that's how he brought me up, you know,
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to be a protector.
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I was bullied really badly as a kid,
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and I really hated it.
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And now I find myself sometimes throwing myself
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into situations to protect people that are being,
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you know, violated and hurt.
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And I just can't walk away from it.
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But that's my dad.
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My dad was that, you know, just a great guy.
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You still listen to, therefore, see,
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you probably went to rush right to the towers,
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Yeah, so anyway, I got, I did, I listened to him.
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I listened to my wife.
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I went to the firehouse, and it was really strange.
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It was eerie because the computer dispatch system
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was still beeping, which meant it sent a dispatch,
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and the truck received it.
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Ladder 114, my truck company received it,
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and they left, they were gone.
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So it was this beautiful old building built in the 1880s
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with a spiral staircase, just a narrow old brick garage,
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And I just heard the computer chirping.
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And I looked down on a ticket, and it said,
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Ladder 114, respond, the Vessian West World Trade Center
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aircraft into building.
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And I said, oh, God, I just hope they're not on a death ride
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because this now was two towers, and they were burning.
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They were free burning, and I knew
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this was really, really bad.
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And I got on the phone, and I called command right away.
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I called the 40th Battalion, and Chief's aide just said, look,
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Sign them in to the journal.
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There's a journal of daily events.
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Everything that takes place in the firehouse 24 seven
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And I logged myself as coming in, reporting for duty.
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And as the guys came in, I logged them in.
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And then one of our lieutenants took command.
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We grabbed up a bunch of gear, and they basically
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told us, get 12 guys, get a city bus,
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and get down to the battery tunnel they said
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would probably be closed.
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There was threats it was going to be blown up
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to get to the Brooklyn Bridge.
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We got a city bus.
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We flagged it down, and the bus driver said, I'm sorry.
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I can't give you the bus.
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And he took us, and we stopped at Engine 201,
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which is just about a quarter mile down the road from us.
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That's our affiliated engine company,
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and my childhood best friend here, Johnny Schardt,
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he was assigned there, and he was on shift.
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And then they went through the tunnel.
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And we picked up those guys, the off duty guys from 201,
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and then we kept going down Fourth Avenue,
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and we picked up 239's crew.
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And then we hightailed it down the bridge,
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and there was a lot of traffic.
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There was a lot of people fleeing,
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coming over the bridge in waves, so it affected the inbound.
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What was the mood like among the crew?
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It was somber, because just prior to getting on the bus,
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the first tower went down.
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So we figured that I heard 114, my lieutenant, Dennis Oberg,
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heard him on the radio.
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And he said, 114, Manhattan, we're on your frequency.
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What do you need us?
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And they said, Tally Ho, which is our nickname.
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Tally Ho, respond to the Vessian West to the command post
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and receive your orders.
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And I heard Dennis say, Tally Ho, 10 4.
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And Dennis, a little while after that,
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they were proceeding to go into, I believe it was,
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I get this mixed up, and I'm sorry.
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I should know this by the back of my hand,
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but sometimes it's just such a haze.
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But the second tower hit was the first one to go down.
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And they were heading over to go in it.
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And all of a sudden, he looked up,
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and he saw what he thought to be disintegration.
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And he turned the guys around.
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They sprinted as fast as they could.
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And they dove under a fire truck.
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And the guys that were sprinting behind him 40 feet away
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were underneath a pile that was 10 stories deep.
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And just further into that pile was his rookie son, Dennis's
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rookie son, who was working in Ladder 105, which
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was my first command under the department.
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I worked for it, proudly served for three years.
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And just aside them was my childhood best friend,
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John Chard, and his crew from 201.
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And they were all killed.
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And a strange irony to that is that Dennis's son, Dennis Jr.,
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was working underneath, under the wing of a senior man,
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A senior man is a guy with a lot of experience.
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And he'll watch over you, make sure you don't veer off,
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like I veer off a lot in talking.
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And you don't veer off, and you get yourself hurt.
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In the morning of 1993 bombing, Henry Miller was my senior man.
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And I was the young guy under his wing.
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And he protected me.
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And toward the end of the day, he looked around.
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He said, kid, it's a bad day.
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He said, they didn't do it right.
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They blew it up in the middle.
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If they did it in a corner, they would
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have dropped this building half a mile down at Canal Street.
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But don't kid yourself.
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They'll be back, and they'll do it.
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And they'll do it right next time.
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And it's so strange and so prophetic,
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because he was there with them.
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He died with Dennis.
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And like 1994, we had a training manual
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with a picture of the towers with a target.
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And this is not a matter of if, but a matter
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of when, be prepared.
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And it's haunting.
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It was like people knew, right?
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And we didn't stop it.
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And so we got off the bus, but just prior to that,
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coming over the bridge of the second tower, it's gone now.
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And we're just destroyed, because we're like,
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our guys are there.
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They're all in there.
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Now we're feeling like cowards, because we got there late.
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And initially, we're thinking there's
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500 guys that are gone, because there was a tent alarm
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assignment, which means 50, 60 fire trucks, five to six guys
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per, you know, you're looking at.
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At least there was even more tent alarm,
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plus multiple alarms on top of it.
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There was a dispatch, basically equivalent of five
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to 600 firefighters.
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We figured, oh, they're all in there, all gone.
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All the police officers, Port Authority police,
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NYPD police, court officers just up the street
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from the courts, transit cops from the train tunnels.
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Like, just, you know, we knew everybody was going there,
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and now they're gone.
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So what you saw, what were we looking at?
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What did it look like?
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So you saw rubble, and then you knew that many, that 105
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and 201, many of those guys are in the, they're dead.
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Yeah, and we thought 114 was in there, too.
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We didn't realize at that point.
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We didn't even realize that they had gotten under that truck.
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We thought they were all gone.
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But yeah, it looked like, it looked like a movie scene
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with just end of the earth destruction.
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It's just massive piles of intertwined steel,
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what was left of the steel.
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And you know, there was no cement.
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It was all just dust.
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And it was just a burning pile of dust and concrete
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And it was just, everything was just pulverized.
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And it was truly hard to mentally compute that.
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Like, it was like, what?
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And then there was just fighter jets, a couple of fighter jets
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And you just heard them flying by over your head.
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I mean, you'd literally see the guy banking
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a turn around a Brooklyn bridge and just coming back.
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And I'm like, holy shoot, we're under attack?
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And we couldn't really get concrete intel
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as to what exactly we knew planes.
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But then we kept hearing there was multiple devices.
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There was devices in a battery tunnel.
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And there was devices on a George Washington bridge
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and in the subways.
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And it was just chaos.
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It was, I mean, we kept it together, obviously,
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because that's kind of, we try.
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That's what we do.
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But the just constant barrage of different reports,
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it was like, holy shoot.
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And then as we were being deployed,
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it was a little frustrating.
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But they were trying to take command and send us
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in groups now because they realized
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we have to start searching this.
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You could hear the alarms on the Scott Air Mask, the packs
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we wear to go into the building.
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It has a motion alarm.
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And if you stop moving for 30 seconds,
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it just sounds like this whining, just screaming bell.
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And it just keeps going and going.
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And you could hear multiple units of those going off.
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And you're like, wait a minute.
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There's guys with those.
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And it's emanating from underneath the pile.
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And it was just surreal and truly like a war zone.
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I mean, I was a soldier in the reserves.
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And I never saw combat.
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And I would never claim that I did.
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We trained for a lot of situations.
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And we trained in real life atmospheres and whatnot.
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And this was just beyond that by leaps and bounds.
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Did you see the towers collapse?
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As we were coming over the bridge,
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the first one, as we were deploying from the firehouse,
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we had a television on.
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And I saw it go down.
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And we were so involved in getting gear together
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and getting teams set up and, OK, you're
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going to be with these two guys.
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And I just yelled, there's the guys.
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And they're looking at me.
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I dropped to my knees.
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And I started praying.
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They're like, what the hell's wrong?
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I said, I couldn't even say.
link |
I was like, 114, they're in there.
link |
And they're like, what?
link |
I said, the tower's gone.
link |
And all you saw on the TV was just this pile of dust.
link |
And I guess because they didn't see it going down,
link |
they probably thought I truly lost it.
link |
And then the realization came.
link |
It was like, wow, the tower's down.
link |
So now it was like, wow, this is really on.
link |
So we just took off and got that boss.
link |
And so if you thought many of the guys on 114 were dead,
link |
if you thought that, did you think you were going to die?
link |
I mean, if you're rushing towards the rubble?
link |
As crazy as it sounds, I never thought that the other tower
link |
I said, OK, maybe some freak chance that one went down.
link |
But no, the other one's not going to go.
link |
They're built so strong.
link |
I was in those towers so many times.
link |
I mean, I ate dinner up in the top floor restaurant windows
link |
And I'm saying, nah, there's no way.
link |
Like, how the hell did this one happen?
link |
But I was having a hard time mentally processing
link |
that the building was gone.
link |
And believe me, if you don't have fear in this industry
link |
and police, fire, military, then you're kidding yourself
link |
or you're a danger to everyone.
link |
I don't care who it is, as tough as they are, this and that.
link |
Everybody has a certain level of fear
link |
And I don't care how long you do it,
link |
there's always that chance of something going bad.
link |
And everyone who does it has that certain amount of fear.
link |
But at that point, it was such a feeling of disbelief
link |
that fear wasn't even kicking in.
link |
It was just like, what the hell just happened?
link |
And I honestly think it was almost like a shock.
link |
And it just stayed that whole day.
link |
So the building is, before it collapses, is burning.
link |
It's just burning.
link |
I mean, upper floors, up in the 78th, up to the 80s.
link |
And then the way that the cut was from the plane,
link |
it wasn't just straight across.
link |
It was from the 78th, then on up to maybe the 86th.
link |
And then the jet fuel had come down and was burning down.
link |
And there was people on the ground
link |
who were doused with jet fuel that was already burning.
link |
And they were lit on fire on the ground.
link |
It was just insane how vast the destruction path was.
link |
As a firefighter, what are you supposed
link |
to do with that scale of fire?
link |
I think the first bosses in, the first chiefs,
link |
were just going to do their best to get,
link |
as we get hose lines, what our whole theory is,
link |
or our tactics is, to get water at the fire,
link |
at the base of the fire, and get the truck company,
link |
which is the ladder company.
link |
They're the guys who break the doors down, put ladders up,
link |
this and that, to get them to where the life is most
link |
expected and get them out of there.
link |
So I think the chiefs tactics at that point
link |
was, let me get multiple engine companies.
link |
Let me get four, five, six hose lines
link |
fighting this fire, this massive fire.
link |
And let me get 15, 20 truck companies up there just
link |
yoking people out of there.
link |
Yeah, but you got to go up the stair.
link |
Everything's not working.
link |
Yeah, guys had to walk up 80, 80, 90, 100 flights of stairs.
link |
And there's audio of officers and firefighters
link |
speaking to each other on the radio channels.
link |
And unfortunately, at that point in time,
link |
we had very, very bad communication system.
link |
We'd been fighting for years to get radios
link |
that work properly.
link |
We couldn't because it was a lot of money.
link |
We fought for years to get the full bunker firefighting
link |
suits, which is the pants and the coat.
link |
We used to have just coats and these roll up rubber boots
link |
and guys were burning to death and we had to fight.
link |
And unfortunately we lost three guys
link |
in one vicious, vicious fire in 1994.
link |
And then they finally said, enough's enough.
link |
Give these guys the gear.
link |
So it's a strange phenomenon in the first responder world
link |
and in the military world.
link |
It's really one of the most important things
link |
that takes place in society.
link |
The most pertinent organizations.
link |
And we can't get the funding we need.
link |
They'll throw money at every nonsensical thing.
link |
But when it comes to gear, equipment,
link |
protective equipment, trucks, this couldn't get it.
link |
Just all the ways you could take care of people.
link |
I saw since 9 11, the wars in the Middle East
link |
have cost America over six trillion dollars.
link |
And the amount of that money that was spent
link |
on the soldiers, in this case the first responders,
link |
Compared to it, yeah.
link |
They, Lex, they closed down.
link |
I believe it's either seven or eight.
link |
In May of 2002, they closed down nine firehouses
link |
in New York City for budget reasons.
link |
We hadn't even finished cleaning up
link |
the World Trade Center site and they slashed the budget.
link |
And still to this day, have not reopened those firehouses.
link |
There's a million more people now living in New York City
link |
than there were in 2001.
link |
And the fire protection is way less than it was.
link |
It's really a sin.
link |
Can I ask you a difficult question?
link |
So there's this famous photograph of a falling man.
link |
So many people had to decide when they're above the fire,
link |
in the fire, whether to jump out of the building
link |
or to burn to death.
link |
What do you make of that decision?
link |
What do you make of that situation?
link |
Those people who jumped,
link |
those were acts of sheer desperation.
link |
I've been in fires and just minor burns,
link |
but minor in situation.
link |
But I've been trapped, caught somewhat.
link |
Ended up in a burn center for nothing serious at all.
link |
But for those brief seconds, half a minute was,
link |
thank God, if I didn't have my fire gear on,
link |
I would have been burned to a very, very horrible level.
link |
Those people were burning alive.
link |
And they had the choice of either to stay there
link |
and burn alive or to launch themselves.
link |
And some of them, I don't fault them,
link |
but they had a few folks, they won't show it anymore
link |
because they say, I don't know why it offends some people,
link |
but they had a couple folks that took umbrellas
link |
and they took garbage bags
link |
because they thought that it would slow down
link |
their acceleration rate to the ground
link |
and maybe, just maybe they wouldn't be killed.
link |
And that's, to me, a true sense of desperation for humanity
link |
to say, I'm going to die either way,
link |
but let me take my chance.
link |
And I don't know the exact number of those folks
link |
who did that, but our first member of the fire department
link |
killed firefighter Daniel Serf, aged 216,
link |
was struck by a jumper.
link |
And one of my dear friends was ordered to help take him
link |
and they knew he was passed away
link |
because he was hit by a flying missile.
link |
I mean, 120 miles an hour, a body lands on you.
link |
Those two bodies are now crushed.
link |
And they were ordered to take that firefighter
link |
and bring him across the street to Engine 10, Ladder 10.
link |
It was literally a firehouse, less than 100 yards
link |
from the facade of the Trade Center,
link |
from the Trade Center complex.
link |
They were literally right there.
link |
And there was plane parts that went into that firehouse,
link |
landed into the front doors onto the roof,
link |
but the building itself was not destroyed.
link |
So it was used as a mini command center for quite a while.
link |
So my friend was ordered to take Daniel's body
link |
in respect and bring it over to this firehouse
link |
and give it some semblance of dignity
link |
and lay it out on one of the bunk rooms,
link |
the bunks we have in the bunkhouse,
link |
and just cover it with a sheet and put a sign,
link |
please firefighter killed, do not disturb,
link |
and then we'll get to him later
link |
because obviously this operation is gonna go on for days.
link |
And my friend, who's such a great, wonderful guy,
link |
is so still to this day, filled with guilt
link |
because if they weren't taking his body out
link |
with the respect and dignity that they did,
link |
it took a while because it's a tough situation.
link |
His ladder company was coming over the bridge.
link |
There's a famous picture of Ladder 118.
link |
You see this tractor trailer fire truck.
link |
It's the one when the guy in the back also drives.
link |
And it's a zoomed out shot, and you see the Brooklyn Bridge,
link |
and you see only the fire truck in the middle,
link |
and you see the two burning towers in the distance.
link |
Well, his engine company was just ahead of them
link |
on the bridge, and the only reason that engine company lived
link |
is their initial duty assignment
link |
was to take that firefighter and bring his body over.
link |
It's like the military.
link |
We don't leave anyone behind.
link |
These are our guys.
link |
As some guys say, it's all about the guy right next to you,
link |
and nothing else really matters.
link |
When that guy right next to you goes down, it stops.
link |
You get that guy to safety,
link |
or if he's dead, you get him out.
link |
So in that time frame, that saved his life.
link |
But that's a heavy burden to carry now
link |
for the rest of your life,
link |
because you say, if I wasn't helping my dead friend,
link |
What did it look like at Ground Zero?
link |
What did it feel like?
link |
What did it smell like?
link |
What, you said there was a sense
link |
that it was almost like a war zone,
link |
but can you paint a picture of how much dust is in the air?
link |
How many people are there?
link |
And again, how did it feel like?
link |
It was just, it was a scene of controlled chaos,
link |
controlled because there was a semblance of command,
link |
and we were just trying to do our jobs.
link |
But it was such a frantic pace
link |
because we're now digging frantically,
link |
knowing that there's life underneath this pile.
link |
And this is throughout the afternoon
link |
of that day, the evening.
link |
Yeah, I mean, this was nonstop,
link |
just nonstop, really, for days.
link |
But for my particular crew, we literally kept going.
link |
We initially were dispatched over towards number seven,
link |
had just gone down,
link |
and we were searching the post office that was there.
link |
There was reports of people trapped.
link |
And we painstakingly searched every single inch
link |
of that building to make sure no one was left in there.
link |
And then we were deployed to the pile,
link |
and the pile is sort of ambiguous
link |
because it was just such a vast, vast pile.
link |
I mean, it went for city blocks.
link |
And we were assisting in the retrieval
link |
of two Port Authority police officers.
link |
We're lucky enough to survive, but they were trapped.
link |
They were deep down into a crevasse,
link |
and they had to be physically dug out and extricated.
link |
So there was a couple hundred, few hundred guys involved
link |
in that process of bringing in equipment,
link |
jaws of life, airbags to lift steel,
link |
to cut pieces of steel.
link |
It was just a huge operation.
link |
And we were back toward the logistics end of it,
link |
shuttling in gear and bringing in stretchers,
link |
bringing in oxygen, whatever was needed.
link |
And you were trying to climb over
link |
this jagged pile of debris.
link |
It wasn't like you just walked 100 feet
link |
on a street with something.
link |
You were trying to climb over this I beam
link |
and then down into this hole and then back up that hole.
link |
I mean, just to run one piece of equipment
link |
took a half an hour to get 100 feet, 200 feet.
link |
You know, mind you, some of these pieces of equipment
link |
are 100 pounds, you know, generator for hearse tools,
link |
this massive motor on a frame.
link |
Unstable ground, just horrible conditions.
link |
Fires were still burning aside you, beneath you.
link |
And at one point, I kind of veered off to the side
link |
and I was with this other fireman
link |
from my father's old ladder company, 172.
link |
And it was strange because we were quite a bit down,
link |
like 70 feet down into this ravine of debris.
link |
And he says, brother, what do you hear?
link |
And at the time it was like dust,
link |
it was like sand just falling down a pile
link |
and it was hissing from gas pipes and water pipes.
link |
And I said, I hear the gas lines,
link |
I hear the sand, I hear the concrete.
link |
He goes, no, no, what else do you hear?
link |
And just the side of us was a lady's pocketbook
link |
and a high heel shoe and someone's sneaker
link |
with nobody with it.
link |
And I said, I don't know, I don't hear anything.
link |
He says, me neither.
link |
He goes, no one's coming out of here.
link |
And I said, no, no, no,
link |
there's gotta be someone coming out of here.
link |
I mean, there's just thousands of people in here
link |
and they're coming out.
link |
He says, brother, we would hear them calling for help,
link |
And I still at that point thought there was a chance.
link |
And after about the fourth day,
link |
they just said, this is a recovery now.
link |
There's no more life, there's no more chance.
link |
And then that first night we went full tilt
link |
till my crew, my specific crew of 12, 15 guys.
link |
And four in the morning, we just couldn't breathe anymore.
link |
We couldn't see, we were caked just with,
link |
it was like if you took flour
link |
and just kept dousing yourself.
link |
And the Lieutenant just said, look, guys,
link |
we're gonna go back, we're gonna get some medical aid
link |
and then we'll come back in a few hours.
link |
And we took a city bus back through the battery tunnel
link |
and unbeknownst to us that morning,
link |
this off duty firefighter,
link |
Steven Siller from Squad Company One,
link |
he raced down there with his pickup
link |
and he couldn't go any further
link |
because the traffic was stopped up
link |
because they had a report of a bomb.
link |
So everything was held up and he grabbed his fire gear
link |
and he put it on, stuff weighs about 60 pounds.
link |
And he ran through the tunnel.
link |
Two and a half miles, got to the end of the tunnel,
link |
fire truck was coming in from the other way.
link |
He hopped on the back, got him up to West Street,
link |
jumped off, tried to look for his company,
link |
where they were and he was never seen again.
link |
He just ran through the tunnel.
link |
Ran through the tunnel and he got there
link |
to help his team, right?
link |
It's all about the team,
link |
it's all about the guy right next to you.
link |
And he's the Tunnel to Towers Foundation, Steven.
link |
His brother Frank decided in his name in perpetuity,
link |
he's got a fund that now builds a home
link |
for every Gold Star family,
link |
for every seriously battle wounded warrior,
link |
for every seriously wounded first responder
link |
or killed in a line of duty first responder.
link |
If they had a home, they'll pay the mortgage.
link |
If they didn't have a home, they give them a home.
link |
And especially if it's a severely battle wounded,
link |
they give them a smart home
link |
because these poor guys come home with no limbs.
link |
And so the beauty of Steven and his selfless act
link |
was that he's now helped thousands and thousands of people.
link |
I mean, the Tunnel to Towers is incredible.
link |
That's part of our mission is to bring awareness
link |
to these great people at Tunnel to Towers, what they do.
link |
They've raised $250 million to help protect the protectors,
link |
to rescue the rescuers in a what's become, unfortunately,
link |
a somewhat ungrateful society.
link |
But they will not forget these great guys.
link |
So you tell Steven's story.
link |
He's one of the 20 people that you talk about
link |
in the new Iron Labs 20 for 20 podcast series.
link |
If you can just linger on his story a little longer,
link |
what does that tell you about the human spirit?
link |
That this guy, the Tunnel couldn't drive through,
link |
so he just puts on that heavy pack and runs.
link |
What do you make of that?
link |
That shows the depth of a man's soul.
link |
He didn't have to do that.
link |
He could have turned around and went home to his family,
link |
and nobody would have shamed him.
link |
But he's one of those beautiful, brave people
link |
that take a job that really doesn't pay a lot of money.
link |
And you become a cop or a firefighter or a nurse or an EMT
link |
or a medic or a soldier or a Marine or airman, sailor.
link |
When you take these jobs, you don't do it for fanfare.
link |
You definitely don't do it for money.
link |
I mean, those 13 brave souls we lost a week or two ago
link |
in Afghanistan, they're brand new soldiers and Marines.
link |
They make $22,000 an hour,
link |
but they don't work 40 hours a week.
link |
They work 80, they work 90 hours a week.
link |
So they make it about six bucks an hour.
link |
And you know what?
link |
And firefighters and cops and medics and EMTs,
link |
nurses, emergency room doctors,
link |
they don't really make a lot of money.
link |
I mean, they're starting salary right now for a New York cop.
link |
I was a New York cop for two years first.
link |
I made 12.25 an hour back in 1989 to get shot at
link |
during the crack wars.
link |
If you made $11 an hour with a family of four,
link |
you were entitled to welfare back then.
link |
So I was just above the welfare level, risking my life.
link |
And these are the guys that are getting ripped up now.
link |
And look, I won't get into any politics,
link |
but like that says something about someone's soul
link |
that they're willing to take a job like that
link |
and get now, get zero respect.
link |
So a guy like Steven, what that shows is the depth
link |
of that man's soul and courage and determination.
link |
It's hard to be selfless in this world anymore,
link |
but I still know a lot of selfless people
link |
that just put on equipment every day, bulletproof vests,
link |
fire bunker gear, stethoscopes,
link |
you know, flak jackets, military helmets,
link |
and they go in and they do it smiling.
link |
That young Marine that passed last week,
link |
she was photographed and quoted as saying,
link |
I have my dream job,
link |
but she was holding a little Afghani baby.
link |
And she was dead a few days later.
link |
She was so thrilled to be making $7 an hour
link |
helping people, right?
link |
Like that to me says,
link |
that's a true sign of character right there.
link |
And it's important for our society
link |
to elevate those people as heroes.
link |
Let me ask you about firefighting.
link |
What do you think it means to be a great firefighter
link |
and a great man, a great human being
link |
in a situation like you were in in 9 11?
link |
You know, that's kind of a broad term.
link |
Like some, you know, you can go to different firehouses
link |
and they might have a different definition
link |
of what they consider a great firefighter.
link |
But I think in the industry as a whole,
link |
if you're willing to put everyone else before you,
link |
especially your team, you know,
link |
as we say, there ain't no I in team, right?
link |
It's T E A M and there's no I in there.
link |
It's all about those guys and girls next to you.
link |
If you can do that, that makes you pretty great.
link |
You put everything else second and you just run in
link |
and you run in with that team for strangers.
link |
You know, I've had the honor of,
link |
I spent almost 25 years of my adult life serving humanity,
link |
my country, my former city.
link |
And the people I worked with were giants.
link |
And I don't mean that in height,
link |
I mean, but I mean that in spirit and in soul.
link |
I saw some of the most heroic, selfless acts.
link |
And then I saw some of the behind the scenes
link |
that were so impressive.
link |
You know, we'd go to the movies,
link |
so impressive, you know, we'd go to a fire around Christmas
link |
and the family would lose everything.
link |
And even when I was a cop, same thing,
link |
you'd come back either to the police precinct
link |
or the firehouse or the EMS station.
link |
And someone would put together a collection and say,
link |
hey guys, hey Lex, 50 bucks a man,
link |
you know, the Smith's down the street,
link |
just lost everything, we're gonna go get some presents
link |
for the kids and some turkeys.
link |
And not one of those guys questioned that.
link |
And they were making 12.25 an hour
link |
and they still came up with 50 bucks for that family.
link |
But see, that's the stuff the press won't show you, right?
link |
They don't wanna show that humanity, that soft edge.
link |
See, when you're a warrior, you need to have
link |
this rough shield, this rough exterior.
link |
Cause if you don't, you die.
link |
But a true great firefighter or responder or a cop
link |
or military personnel, they have that rough exterior
link |
with that soft underbelly, that heart, right?
link |
And that's, to me, the true great ones.
link |
Some of them, they just have a hard time doing that.
link |
There's no shame in showing your soft side.
link |
Well, you got your dad to say I love you back.
link |
No, that was huge, man.
link |
That took me 22 years, Lex.
link |
So you were a firefighter for 21, I was 22 years.
link |
Why did you become a firefighter?
link |
Oh, my dad, I mean, I was five years old
link |
and I went to his firehouse and there was these,
link |
at the time, they looked like giants to me with mustaches
link |
and the trucks smelled like smoke and the gear smelled
link |
like smoke and the tires and the diesel fuel
link |
and that one was like, this is what I'm gonna do.
link |
And then they bring you in the kitchen
link |
and they stuff you with ice cream and cake and everything.
link |
And then I go home to my mom, shaking with a sugar cone
link |
and she's mad at my dad, but yeah, it was just,
link |
oh, I was like, I gotta do this.
link |
It was like, they were like a baseball team in a garage
link |
with a truck and these big tools and big coats and helmets
link |
and they were just laughing and having fun
link |
and I'm like, yeah, man, I'm doing this.
link |
And I knew, I was obsessed with it.
link |
I mean, I was so pissed that the fireman's test came out
link |
when I was 14 and I couldn't take it, you had to be 18.
link |
And it was done, the test was graded and whatever.
link |
So my dad, now there's a copy circulating
link |
because it's old now.
link |
And he goes, yeah, yeah, this is what you're in for.
link |
And I took it and I did it like it was real
link |
and I got a 99 and I was so pissed.
link |
I said, I wanna get hired.
link |
He goes, you can't, you're 14.
link |
But I just wanted to do it so bad
link |
and I just wanted to help people.
link |
I just wanted to be like my dad,
link |
he'd come home smiling as tired as he was
link |
and he fought fires in the 60s and 70s
link |
when the city was burning and he's still
link |
as exhausted as he was, he'd still be smiling.
link |
I wanted to smile at work and I used to,
link |
I got paid to laugh and joke.
link |
I got paid to cry sometimes.
link |
But man, we laughed a lot.
link |
We really, it was, the chop breaking is just,
link |
it's just unending and it's great.
link |
If you don't mind, can you tell me,
link |
you were really kind enough to give me
link |
one of these shirts with 114.
link |
Can you tell me the story of 114 and Tally Ho?
link |
I wear proudly, I served eight years in that command
link |
and I didn't finish my career there.
link |
I passed the lieutenant's test
link |
and once you do, you have to leave.
link |
The story behind Tally Ho is back in World War II,
link |
there was this gentleman named Bad Jack Carroll
link |
and Jack was an airborne ranger
link |
and my father in law was also on the department
link |
And Jack came home, Jack jumped Normandy
link |
and stormed up through the Battle of the Bulls in Bastogne
link |
and he came back, greatest generation as they all did
link |
and they got jobs and they went right to work
link |
and they were treated better back then, vets, right?
link |
And he got on the New York City Fire Department
link |
and he got assigned a ladder 114
link |
and they first got radios back then
link |
and when Jack, he would drive the truck,
link |
you're up there with the officer,
link |
either the lieutenant or captain,
link |
so if the boss is off the truck,
link |
you operate the radio for them as the driver.
link |
So when they called him and they'd say,
link |
you know, ladder 114 responding to 52nd Street,
link |
3rd Avenue, Structure Fire,
link |
you're supposed to get back and say,
link |
ladder 114, 10 four, but he refused to do that.
link |
He'd say, ladder 114, Tally Ho,
link |
because that's what they'd yell
link |
when they'd jump out the plane.
link |
So all these years later, it stuck
link |
and it's a little bit of a bragging right,
link |
but out of 350 engine and truck companies
link |
in the whole New York City Fire Department,
link |
we're pretty much the only one
link |
that's called by their nickname on the radio,
link |
So it tweaked some guys off in other places,
link |
you know, they may F you, Tally Ho,
link |
but it's just, yeah, it's a great, great heritage
link |
and we're really proud and Shamrock was,
link |
he was Irish and a lot of the guys back then
link |
were Irish immigrants from the area,
link |
from the neighborhood,
link |
and they would actually take the fire truck
link |
to church on Sunday and park out front
link |
and one guy would stay in it to hear the radio
link |
in case they got a call.
link |
So yeah, that's the proud history.
link |
And you said that if I wear this around New York,
link |
am I getting a little bit of?
link |
You might get a guy from the Bronx,
link |
go, hey, Tally Ho, screw you, you know?
link |
But I mean, it's all that good rivalry, you know?
link |
We like to, you know, we like to kid each other
link |
back and forth, you know, guys from Manhattan,
link |
we'll say, yeah, you guys are in Brooklyn,
link |
yeah, short buildings, tall stories.
link |
And they're like, yeah, you guys are in Manhattan,
link |
tall buildings, no stories, you know?
link |
Like it's just all that jocular ball break
link |
and it's good stuff, you know?
link |
Let me ask, I guess, a difficult question.
link |
If you just step back on the events of 9 11,
link |
on the side of the people that flew into the towers,
link |
what do you take away from that day about the nature,
link |
about human nature, about good and evil?
link |
How did that change your view of the world?
link |
I witnessed evil firsthand.
link |
I remember later on, well into that night
link |
when we were trying to help get those police officers out,
link |
I remember looking up at the building, Century 21,
link |
the store runs along the east side of the towers
link |
and it was still there and the debris had come down
link |
right almost to the edge.
link |
Century 21 is this old storied department store
link |
in New York City and the sign was there
link |
and it was still lit up, like some of the neon was broken
link |
but I think some of it was actually still lit up
link |
and I just looked around and I was like,
link |
this is a war zone, like we're at war.
link |
And we knew we were attacked, we heard the fighter planes
link |
and back then it wasn't the extensive communication
link |
network and we had cell phones but they were the old school
link |
flip phones and there was no news on them
link |
and so plus we didn't have signal down there anyway.
link |
I couldn't reach my family for like 12, 13 hours
link |
and my dad had deployed down to the ferry terminal
link |
to retrieve bodies.
link |
He was retired but he still went and they deployed him
link |
to go be basically the morgue transport guys.
link |
They expected to be sending hundreds and thousands
link |
of bodies across on the ferry and they set up
link |
these tractor trailers as a mobile morgue
link |
and that never happened because there were no bodies
link |
to take, they were all buried.
link |
So I saw evil firsthand, I don't know how someone
link |
can inflict such revenge or a vengeful act
link |
in the name of anything, in the name of a religion,
link |
in the name of a cause, in the name, like what the hell?
link |
Were you ever able to make sense of that,
link |
why men are able to commit such acts of terror
link |
in the days and the years after?
link |
No, Lex, I haven't.
link |
My mom's from Ireland and I still have a lot of family there
link |
and my great uncles, one of them was dragged out and shot.
link |
He lived but just based on a rumor that he was in the IRA
link |
and I wasn't happy to see what happened to my mom's people
link |
because they were victimized and brutalized
link |
by England at that time.
link |
But blowing up bombs and killing innocents
link |
in the name of that, it doesn't make it right.
link |
I couldn't justify something like that.
link |
I can see, I was a cop, I was a soldier
link |
and you never wanna take life and those jobs
link |
but sometimes you have to.
link |
But you don't do it with a vengeance,
link |
you don't do it with a thirst,
link |
you do it because it's necessary for survival.
link |
When you do it out of a bloodlust, out of a thirst,
link |
out of a cause, that's evil, there's something wrong
link |
with you, I have no, I respect life to the highest level.
link |
I mean, I'm very, life is sacred to me, it's precious,
link |
it's beyond, it's not a commodity, it's a gift.
link |
But to take life just so randomly,
link |
so there's something way wrong with that person
link |
and maybe I'm a conflicted soul
link |
but I would have no problem seeing someone like that
link |
put to death because they do not deserve life.
link |
There's many children around me
link |
and many children around this world
link |
that are being taught to hate someone
link |
who's different than them just because the person
link |
who's allegedly teaching them says so.
link |
I don't understand it.
link |
Well, that starts with just having a basic respect
link |
and appreciation of other human beings
link |
and that starts with empathy.
link |
And one of the reasons I love this country,
link |
while joking that I'm Russian, maybe you could say the same
link |
as you being Irish, you're actually truly an American
link |
and that's why I consider myself very much an American.
link |
And one of the reasons I love this country
link |
is it serves as a beacon.
link |
I still believe it serves as a beacon of hope
link |
and that empathy and love for the rest of the world
link |
that hate is not gonna get you far,
link |
that love will get you a lot farther.
link |
And I still think sometimes it's easy
link |
to see the press, mainstream media,
link |
you could see social networks.
link |
Because you can make so much money on division,
link |
sometimes because it makes so much money,
link |
it's easy to think like we're really divided.
link |
I honestly don't think we are.
link |
That's just like the very surface level thing
link |
we see on Twitter and so on.
link |
It's that you're 100% right.
link |
There's people out there that are maximizing
link |
off this whole division, right?
link |
They want us divided, they want people angry
link |
A lot of these people that are in charge
link |
of certain organizations, well, they all seem to have
link |
nice cars and nice houses and nice vacations
link |
and they're constantly trying to convince everybody
link |
that we hate each other.
link |
To me, I'll use a fireman analogy, right?
link |
It's like a little campfire.
link |
And if you just let the embers flutter, they'll go out.
link |
But if you take a little cup of gasoline with those embers,
link |
boom, it'll blow right up in your face.
link |
And that's what a lot of these politicians
link |
and a lot of these media folks are doing
link |
because there's something in it for them.
link |
And I think it's possible to defeat them
link |
with great leaders, with great spokespeople,
link |
with great human beings having a voice.
link |
One of the powerful things with the internet
link |
is more and more people have a voice.
link |
And I ultimately believe, certainly in America,
link |
but in the world, the good people outnumber the assholes.
link |
And there's days when I think the assholes
link |
are overrunning us, but you know what?
link |
I think what the downfall of the world is
link |
is ego and arrogance and people that think they're better
link |
than that other guy.
link |
My parents raised me to be this way.
link |
My mom is such a sweet, gentle soul.
link |
She's an immigrant.
link |
She came here at 16 years old.
link |
She helps everybody but herself, right?
link |
She's just one of those people.
link |
She's got Parkinson's.
link |
You'd never know it.
link |
And she's still flying around her condo complex
link |
helping everybody because that's what she does.
link |
She loves to help people.
link |
But she's been in their shoes.
link |
Her husband was sick.
link |
She's had all sorts of suffering and loss in her life.
link |
My granddad died when my mom was 10
link |
and she was one of 10 children that survived out of 14.
link |
She knows hard times, but she so appreciates the good times
link |
and the goodness of this country.
link |
You know, the fire department
link |
and the police department, military,
link |
it taught me a lot about empathy
link |
and trying to really feel for someone
link |
and put yourself in their situation.
link |
I remember years back, I was a much younger fireman.
link |
I was probably five years on the job.
link |
And I was sent down to the next firehouse over to fill in.
link |
You know, we would get sent around randomly
link |
when they needed an extra guy.
link |
And someone came banging on the firehouse door
link |
and in the tenement apartment next door,
link |
they said there was an older woman that was unconscious.
link |
So we dispatched ourselves
link |
and we ran over with a medical kit
link |
and it was an elderly woman laying there on the bed.
link |
And she was obviously not breathing.
link |
She was obviously in cardiac arrest
link |
and an older gentleman that was holding her hand,
link |
just inconsolably crying.
link |
And it turned out it was her husband
link |
and they were married for 65 years.
link |
And normally we would just respectfully ask
link |
the family members to just step aside
link |
and let us do our work.
link |
And I realized that he wouldn't leave her side.
link |
So I kind of gave the crew a wink
link |
and they were doing CPR on what they had to.
link |
And I just let him keep holding her hand.
link |
And I said, sir, if you, you know,
link |
could you just come over just a little bit so we can work?
link |
And I held his hand as he held hers.
link |
And I said, sir, I said, do you have faith?
link |
And I said, would you like to pray with me for your wife?
link |
And he said, I would like to.
link |
So we said the Lord's prayer
link |
and you know, I just asked God to protect her and bless her.
link |
And I think he realized that she didn't have a chance,
link |
but we still gave her that chance.
link |
And we, you know, got her in the ambulance
link |
and maybe it was wrong to try to make it look
link |
like we could save her, but you know,
link |
you can't really not try.
link |
But the one beautiful moment was he thanked me
link |
and he was almost okay with it at that point.
link |
Like he wasn't as upset.
link |
He wasn't as distraught because I tried to just humanize
link |
that situation of what we were trying to do.
link |
We were trying to do our best,
link |
but we also tried to be compassionate to his sadness.
link |
And it just, I walked away just feeling so good,
link |
even though it was a tragic situation.
link |
And she did pass that, you know, he came by to, you know,
link |
thank us days later and just heartbreaking.
link |
But you know, there's just, it's just happens many,
link |
many times throughout the country every day.
link |
People get that opportunity as a responder to be
link |
that last bridge to the family and the loved one.
link |
And you only get that opportunity once sometimes
link |
and you really have to, to me,
link |
it's like your moment to shine.
link |
You know, you could just be very,
link |
very dismissive and very rude,
link |
or you could be compassionate and just show,
link |
hey, I have a mom, I have a grandma, I have, you know,
link |
and just in your mind, pretend that that's
link |
who you're working on and that's who you're with.
link |
So that moment of compassion, that moment of empathy,
link |
even if his brief can be the thing that saves the person
link |
from suffering, make the difference between suffering
link |
and overcoming in the face of tragedy.
link |
Yes, like I felt that even though obviously his loss
link |
was still huge, it just made it a little more bearable
link |
and, you know, tried to just take his grief down
link |
to a lower level and it made me feel,
link |
just feel really good about doing it.
link |
That's a powerful way to see the job of a first responder.
link |
Of course, you have to deal with certain aspects
link |
of the tragedy, but it's to provide somebody
link |
with that moment of compassion.
link |
Yeah, and you know, I made it a little habit
link |
because sometimes with faith,
link |
it's a little bit of a tricky subject.
link |
So every time I had someone who died,
link |
which unfortunately was many, many times,
link |
I would just touch their hand
link |
and just say a little quick prayer and just say,
link |
look, you know, I hope you're moving on to a better place.
link |
I hope if you did have faith that it's strong as you depart
link |
and if you didn't have faith,
link |
I hope maybe at your last moment that you found some
link |
and you just found some closure.
link |
So that was just my little ritual, I think.
link |
I just, you know, I felt it was important
link |
that that person, even though they were a stranger,
link |
just had someone there just sort of hoping
link |
for the best for them in their last moments.
link |
You mentioned cancer.
link |
You had a rare leukemia due to all the work
link |
that you did at Ground Zero.
link |
Can you maybe talk to the experience
link |
of just breathing through those days
link |
and what that was like, being unable to breathe,
link |
being overwhelmed by all of the dust in the air?
link |
Yes, the first day especially, we didn't have equipment.
link |
We didn't have breathing apparatus
link |
and then we were handed little 69 cent
link |
hardware store dust mask, you know,
link |
it was a little thin paint mask
link |
that would just get sweated up
link |
and sticking to your face within 30 seconds.
link |
So you would just, they were useless.
link |
And what you wound up feeling like was
link |
that you swallowed a box of razor blades
link |
because there was glass and there was cement
link |
and it was just so caustic.
link |
And I remember that night, you know,
link |
when we went back just to get some medical relief
link |
for the few hours, we were walking up the hill
link |
to the firehouse because they dropped us off
link |
like a block away down at Engine 201's quarters
link |
and one of the older firemen as we're walking up the block,
link |
we're all struggling, we're all having a hard time breathing
link |
and just, I mean, I felt like I was dying,
link |
literally, it was pretty bad.
link |
And I just remember the one guy going out,
link |
And I said, no, no, we made it, we made it.
link |
He goes, no, you don't get it, kid.
link |
He said, we just breathed in poison after poison for hours
link |
and then that went into days and then went into months.
link |
He says, we're all dead, man, this is gonna take us all.
link |
And I thought he was crazy and then now years later,
link |
like starting in 03 or 04,
link |
guys just started coming down with these really rare
link |
and advanced cancers and then it just stopped
link |
being a coincidence with the number of guys
link |
and they were young, one of the first guys, John McNamara,
link |
he was 33 or 34 and he came down colon cancer
link |
and it took him quickly in 2000, he was in 2005.
link |
And I kind of said to friends and family,
link |
I said, I feel like I'm running through a minefield
link |
and I wonder when I'm gonna step on my mind
link |
because everybody's gonna get sick.
link |
And I wasn't feeling well from 2008 on,
link |
I couldn't put my finger on it, but I just wasn't right.
link |
And in 2011, I failed my medical,
link |
my bloods came back horrifically wrong
link |
and they pulled me off the truck,
link |
but they strung me out for a month,
link |
the doctors in the fire department,
link |
one of them said my spleen was engorged
link |
because I was probably drinking myself to death,
link |
like as he said, most of the guys did after 9 11,
link |
which was pretty wrong of him and stereotypical,
link |
just to stereotype and to categorize
link |
and guy couldn't have cared less,
link |
he just, he was so crude and nasty.
link |
And then my one doctor who was my doctor on the outside,
link |
my blood pressure was 240 over 140,
link |
my spleen was about to rupture,
link |
she didn't even show up for my appointment
link |
and I went down, passed out, the paramedics responded,
link |
she got into an argument with a paramedic
link |
because for big ego and basically telling him
link |
there wasn't really anything wrong
link |
and he's looking at my paperwork going,
link |
this guy's got leukemia and he overrode her,
link |
he raced me out of there down to Brooklyn Methodist
link |
and the doctor, the charge physician, the ER physician,
link |
he says, you're not leaving, you're in a bad way.
link |
And I said, what is it?
link |
He said, I need a little while to figure it out,
link |
he goes, but you probably have one of a few different types
link |
of leukemia, he said, I'll drill into your hip,
link |
take your marrow and find out.
link |
And he said, but in the meantime,
link |
we'll get the swelling on the spleen down,
link |
I guess some sort of rapid medicines and whatnot
link |
because my spleen is about to rupture.
link |
I had no blood platelets left which is your clotter
link |
so I basically would have bled to death
link |
and I found out from my team of doctors
link |
that I had about 48 hours to live
link |
and that really set me off, I was infuriated
link |
because I was telling them for a long time that I was sick.
link |
The doctors failed you,
link |
the few doctors in the beginning failed you.
link |
I felt very betrayed and other guys had died
link |
and I had it out with that one doctor,
link |
I basically told her she was fired from my case
link |
and she's pretty politically in charge person
link |
and I didn't care, I jeopardized my job for it
link |
because it was my life and I got the sense
link |
that it didn't really matter to her.
link |
She didn't have any empathy, as you say.
link |
It was exact, so why for her, why for a few others,
link |
was there not a special care, a special compassion
link |
for, first of all, all humans,
link |
but human beings in your position,
link |
especially a firefighter, a first responder?
link |
You know, Alex, I think what it is in the department,
link |
their title is just to get us back to duty
link |
as quickly as possible when we are either injured or sick
link |
because what happens then is your replacement
link |
is now in overtime so you're out being paid on medical leave
link |
but then they need to replace your spot
link |
and then that costs more money.
link |
So I think it just behooves them
link |
to get as many personnel back
link |
and especially during the summertime,
link |
they look at it like, oh, maybe you want a few extra days off
link |
to go to the beach and this one doctor,
link |
he tipped his hand back as if I was drinking
link |
an alcohol beverage, he says, hey, busy summer?
link |
Because I asked him to look at my spleen
link |
which was sticking out of my abdomen like a football
link |
and I said, excuse me, sir, I said,
link |
how dare you assume that I'm abusing alcohol
link |
because alcohol abuse sometimes will present itself
link |
as the spleen is engorged and having an issue.
link |
So he automatically just assumed that that was my situation,
link |
wouldn't even give me an exam and I was horrified.
link |
I was so angry, I mean, I wanted to punch this guy out
link |
and I literally was screaming at him
link |
and an executive officer came in to diffuse it
link |
and sent me to another doctor
link |
and when I showed her my paperwork, she was horrified.
link |
She was like, what did he say?
link |
And she said, oh, okay, go to your regular doctor tomorrow
link |
who was one of the department doctors
link |
and it was just an indifference.
link |
It was like, I don't know,
link |
I was shocked at the lack of compassion
link |
but you know what, that being said, I'm past it,
link |
The team of doctors, I ended up with a Methodist
link |
and my subsequent oncologist, Dr. Peter Menzel,
link |
world class, just incredible human being.
link |
My Dr. Pete is just, I love him.
link |
I just, I love him like a friend, like a big brother,
link |
like a father, like my primary oncology care nurse,
link |
Mike Nunez, was just an incredible human being
link |
and he knew I was frightened
link |
because I had to get two and a half years of chemo
link |
compressed into seven days or I was dead.
link |
And these massive bags of chemo that never stopped
link |
and they burned, the minute they went into your body,
link |
you felt like you were burning to death
link |
from the inside out.
link |
And Mike, when Mike came in to hook me up,
link |
he said, look, I have to wear a hazmat suit.
link |
This stuff is so caustic that if it drips,
link |
it'll burn whenever it touches.
link |
And I was like, but Mike, you're gonna put that in my body.
link |
How the hell is it not gonna kill me?
link |
He says, no, no, this is exactly what it's supposed to do.
link |
So when he prepped the IV tube to get it flowing,
link |
it spilled onto the tube
link |
and the tube started to smoke and burn.
link |
And I said, no effing way, Mike,
link |
you're not putting that in me.
link |
And he goes, listen, let me get another one.
link |
Let me start it over.
link |
And here he is wearing a hazmat suit, looking at me
link |
and I'm going, this is insane.
link |
And he goes, he looked at me, he took my hand
link |
and he says, Nels, if you don't take it, you're dead.
link |
He says, you got those three kids.
link |
I'm sorry, I have no other option.
link |
And I said, all right, Mike, okay.
link |
And he hooked me up.
link |
And you know what, it was like, you know,
link |
if you do drink alcohol and you have like a shot
link |
or want, you know, strong type spirit
link |
and you start feeling that burn.
link |
Well, the minute he hit me in the vein,
link |
it just started going up my arm, burning
link |
and then up my shoulder, across my neck, into my head,
link |
across the rest of my body,
link |
within a minute down to my feet.
link |
And I was writhing in pain for seven days
link |
and I was praying to die.
link |
I was the seventh rescuer in six months
link |
to come down with the rarest leukemia there is.
link |
There's only 500 cases in all of North America a year.
link |
And seven of us came down in six months.
link |
Two guys died during treatment.
link |
Seven responders, police, fire.
link |
Two guys died in the first couple of days of the treatment
link |
because it's so vicious, your liver, your heart,
link |
your kidneys, something will fail.
link |
And I was praying and I was praying, but I wanted to die.
link |
I was in so much pain.
link |
And I wouldn't take a painkiller
link |
because I know people with some issues
link |
and I just didn't want to go there.
link |
And finally on the last day I gave in,
link |
I said, please, I can't do this anymore.
link |
I was literally like jumping out of my skin
link |
and they gave me something.
link |
But it had burned out my mind, it burned out my body.
link |
I couldn't hear, I could barely see, it was vicious.
link |
And my nurses especially,
link |
they just, they were so dedicated and devoted.
link |
And I was not an easy patient
link |
because I was in a lot of pain.
link |
It was bad and it was, drove my friends, my family crazy.
link |
It was just, it wasn't good.
link |
But on that first night I had a quick vision
link |
of all these people that I loved that were dead, that died.
link |
A lot of them in a trade center and I saw Johnny,
link |
I saw friends I grew up with.
link |
The last one was my mother in law
link |
who had passed six months before and she died of,
link |
she was in a coma, she had a stroke.
link |
She had a horrible, horrible last six months of life
link |
and it wasn't fair because she was so religious.
link |
She went to church every day, devout Catholic woman.
link |
And all of a sudden I see her and she's smiling
link |
and we used to talk a lot, it's the Irish thing,
link |
like the gab, the gift of gab.
link |
And she used to call me her boyfriend
link |
because we'd sit and talk for hours
link |
and talk about books and about movies and about food.
link |
I loved her, she was my friend.
link |
And she'd say, you know, my boyfriend's here.
link |
And all of a sudden she's smiling
link |
and she goes, hi, my boyfriend.
link |
And I says, Nan, Nan, what are you doing?
link |
She goes, he's not ready, he doesn't want you.
link |
You gotta go back, you got things to do.
link |
And I'm like, no, Nan, Nan, it hurts so much.
link |
Please, please take me and she left.
link |
She goes, no, no, not yet, I'll see you.
link |
And she just faded away.
link |
And one of my doctors on my team,
link |
she had a problem with religion.
link |
And that's okay, I understand that.
link |
I'm not a preacher, I have a faith,
link |
but I don't preach it, I don't push it.
link |
I just live and let live.
link |
So she sent in this shrink to see me.
link |
And I was messed up from the chemo,
link |
but I knew what I was seeing, I knew what I was saying.
link |
And he was a Jewish gentleman.
link |
He was a rabbi also in a synagogue.
link |
And I actually had responded in that district
link |
and he knew 114 would run into Borough Park.
link |
Oh yeah, I see Tyler, oh, they come down the street.
link |
And he asked me to tell him the story and I did.
link |
And he started laughing and he scared me now.
link |
I says, Doc, am I really crazy?
link |
He said, I believe you, my friend.
link |
He said, we share the same God.
link |
He goes, we work in the same corporation,
link |
but in different departments.
link |
And he says, you did see your mother in law.
link |
He says, your faith is that strong.
link |
He said, I've had many patients
link |
express the same sentiments.
link |
He said, so I want you to listen to her
link |
and fight and be strong.
link |
And he said, so what else do you want to talk about?
link |
I said, well, I don't know, Doc, am I that messed up?
link |
He goes, they're paying me for an hour.
link |
It only took 20 minutes.
link |
So we watched the Yankee game together and that's less.
link |
But it was just, again, it showed the human condition.
link |
Here's these two men of two totally different faiths.
link |
And yet we shared that bond of faith.
link |
And he had empathy and he had sympathy.
link |
And he saw me in many other patients.
link |
So he just didn't assume.
link |
And he gave me a fair shake
link |
and I will always be grateful to him for that.
link |
Through any of this, the pain you had to go through
link |
with the leukemia, but also the days of 9 11
link |
and after, did your faith get challenged?
link |
You know, Lex, it was strange.
link |
It was times I was so angry.
link |
You know, there's that range of emotions,
link |
the anger, the denial, the depression, the this, the that.
link |
And this is the weirdest thing.
link |
It was mostly, I knew my career was over
link |
and they retired me out of the job.
link |
That, I got sick in August and that October,
link |
they told me I was out.
link |
And by the time I was processed and, you know,
link |
used up my leaves and whatever you want to say it was,
link |
I was officially retired in January of 02
link |
and it was less than six months.
link |
And I'm there walking my dog one day,
link |
my rescued Greyhound who I miss.
link |
She was such a soul.
link |
God, she lived to be almost 13, Katie.
link |
And we were walking in the snow and I got the call.
link |
I was retired and I looked at her and I'm like,
link |
Katie, what am I going to do?
link |
She just looked up and said, we're going to go
link |
on a lot more walks, you know?
link |
And I was so sad and I was so sad and I was so angry
link |
because I lost my priesthood.
link |
I loved helping people.
link |
I really, like I would have done it for free.
link |
I would never tell Mayor Bloomberg that, right?
link |
He's all about the buck, right?
link |
But like, you know, honestly,
link |
I would have been a New York City fireman.
link |
I would have paid them to do it, you know?
link |
And I wasn't allowed anymore.
link |
You have over 20 years and you have cancer.
link |
You know, back when my dad got sick,
link |
they'd let you hang around for 10, 12 years in an office,
link |
Now it's all about the bottom line.
link |
But I was more depressed about losing a job
link |
than almost losing my life.
link |
Like, as crazy as that sounds, you know?
link |
It was more than a job.
link |
I mean, it's a way of life.
link |
It also is your family, your father,
link |
your carrying torture, your father's...
link |
I love my friends.
link |
I love, we worked 24 hour shifts together.
link |
You cook, you clean, you break each other's jobs
link |
I mean, I love those guys so much.
link |
I mean, I hope that my kids
link |
and anyone that I know and care about,
link |
I hope they can experience the bond of that brotherhood
link |
that I experienced in my life.
link |
God, I would give anything to have it back.
link |
Can I ask you about New York?
link |
So unfortunately, I've never lived in New York.
link |
I've always wanted to live there for a bit.
link |
Obviously, it's a very different experience
link |
to have really lived in New York for many, many years.
link |
But there's a few friends of mine that are from...
link |
They got similar accent as yours.
link |
That are a little bit saddened.
link |
Perhaps it's temporary, but perhaps not.
link |
They don't seem to think so of what New York has become,
link |
especially with COVID.
link |
It's losing some of the spirit of New York.
link |
Do you have that sense?
link |
Do you have a hope for the city
link |
that has been so defining to what is America?
link |
My heart's broken.
link |
I had moved to New Jersey many years ago,
link |
but I still have a close attachment to New York.
link |
My parents are still there, many, many family members.
link |
And I've since now moved to Tennessee.
link |
I needed to go somewhere quiet.
link |
I wanted to heal my fractured soul.
link |
And I'm in the middle of a beautiful farming rural area
link |
in middle Tennessee.
link |
And so they probably called me a sellout
link |
back in New York for leaving,
link |
but it's not the same city and it's sad.
link |
I'll refrain from the politics and the finger pointing,
link |
but it's a mess compared to what it was.
link |
And I did Broadway theater security for many years,
link |
and I started to see it slide
link |
like with stuff that was happening,
link |
like public urination and defecation
link |
and just like tourists don't wanna see that, right?
link |
And I had an unfortunate incident two years ago.
link |
I was jumped by four teenagers coming off the subway
link |
and they were pissed off
link |
because I was wearing an American flag hat.
link |
And I don't know, I'm not really sure why,
link |
but it left me, I got out of it, okay.
link |
But I was taken back.
link |
They were literally videoing it
link |
and the kid was just throwing shadow punches at my face
link |
wanting to beat me up.
link |
And I finally looked him in the eyes and I was like,
link |
oh boy, I'm a little too old for this.
link |
Body's a little broken down for chemo.
link |
And I finally just said, all right, all right.
link |
I just had enough, I wanted to go home.
link |
Just worked a 17 hour shift as a stage hand.
link |
And I was so taken back, I was so insulted.
link |
I'm saying, I spent my life protecting this city
link |
and now I'm getting attacked like for nothing.
link |
And I just, I gave up
link |
and maybe I should have given it a little more time,
link |
but it's, I don't know, it's turned into an angry place.
link |
It's turned into, I think there's a lot of people
link |
that aren't getting the resources they need in a sense.
link |
There's a lot of mental illness.
link |
There's a lot of homelessness.
link |
There's a lot of violent people
link |
just roaming around the streets and it's not good.
link |
And tourists are not gonna come back.
link |
Even just leading up to the COVID,
link |
I had some tourists saying to me, I won't be back.
link |
And now I can only imagine
link |
that it's just gotten exponentially worse,
link |
but I hope there's a chance it'll swing back.
link |
Cause it is, it's the gateway to the world.
link |
I mean, my grandfather came from Denmark.
link |
He landed in Ellis Island in the twenties.
link |
American success story, 25 bucks in his pocket,
link |
didn't speak the language,
link |
had a sponsor family in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn.
link |
And he made it, you know, he ended up dying
link |
owning a bakery at one point and then an apartment building.
link |
And he did pretty well for himself
link |
for an immigrant who was poor.
link |
And my mom, my Irish mother landed in the same neighborhood,
link |
Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, 16 years old.
link |
Worked as a cashier 50, 60 hours a week in the supermarket
link |
and finished school at night.
link |
Married my father, the fireman,
link |
and, you know, lived the American dream.
link |
And it was all, it was all from New York.
link |
And my father's mom was from Irish immigrants
link |
and they all landed in Ellis Island.
link |
Well, my mom didn't cause it was closed at that point,
link |
but it's, there's people breaking down the doors
link |
to come to this country, right?
link |
There's no one breaking down the doors to leave.
link |
And this is, this is a problem I have
link |
with people that aren't grateful for being here.
link |
And this, again, it's not political,
link |
just straight down the middle fastball.
link |
If you don't like it here, I'll show you the door.
link |
I'll get you the plane ticket.
link |
I mean, would you want to live back in Russia
link |
Would you, you might because of family ties,
link |
but I mean, if you had no ties to Russia
link |
or would you want to go to China right now
link |
and possibly end up in a labor camp or, right?
link |
There's people busting down the doors to get to this place.
link |
It's got its flaws, it's got its blemishes, you know,
link |
but it's a damn great place.
link |
It's the best country in the world.
link |
Yeah, and some of it, so first of all,
link |
I have hope for New York.
link |
I think that culture is very difficult to kill.
link |
I think it will persevere.
link |
And I think ultimately the same story with New York
link |
as with the rest of the United States,
link |
it has to do with leaders.
link |
And I'm always hopeful that great leaders will emerge.
link |
And the kind of leadership we see now
link |
and the kind of conversations we have now,
link |
I think it has to do with the prosperity and comfort.
link |
And in the face of hardship,
link |
I think great leaders will emerge.
link |
And yeah, I just think ultimately
link |
in the long arc of history.
link |
Well, leaders shouldn't become rich.
link |
They shouldn't become rich in the process, right?
link |
You shouldn't go into political office
link |
as an alleged lunchbox kind of guy
link |
and then come out eating at the best steakhouse in the world.
link |
I mean, that's the problem with politics, right?
link |
My Irish grandmother, God rest her, used to say,
link |
oh, those politicians, they're all like dirty diapers.
link |
They're full of shit and they stink.
link |
I don't give a crap what party they're in.
link |
Yeah, greed and power.
link |
We had to beg these guys,
link |
beg them for federal legislation
link |
to cover our medical bills, right?
link |
There's a gentleman, John Field
link |
from the Feel Good Foundation.
link |
This guy is a lion of a man, a general,
link |
but with a soft, big, great heart.
link |
And John is a former construction worker
link |
who came to the 9.11 site the day after.
link |
He was one of those guys cutting the steel with torches
link |
and craning it out of the air.
link |
One of those hard hats that just,
link |
that never got the credit and the praise
link |
that we did as responders.
link |
And I don't mean that as a knock to responders, right?
link |
I mean, we lost 37 Port Authority police officers,
link |
about a dozen emergency medical technicians and paramedics,
link |
three court officers from New York State courts
link |
and two federal agents,
link |
and I hope, and 343 New York City firefighters.
link |
We lost a ton of responders.
link |
But the recovery workers,
link |
thankfully weren't killed in that process,
link |
but there's hundreds of them now who are dead from illnesses
link |
because they came down to recover our people
link |
and the civilians and the poor lost souls
link |
that were killed at work that day.
link |
And John literally almost lost his foot
link |
in a construction accident at the site.
link |
An 8,000 pound I beam tore off half of his foot,
link |
ended up with massive sepsis, six months in the hospital,
link |
hundreds of thousand dollars in medical bills,
link |
and then no one wanted to pay him.
link |
So here's a guy, he's gonna lose his house,
link |
lose his life, lose everything.
link |
And now the never forget, it started quick, right?
link |
And he went on a mission,
link |
formed his Feel Good Foundation.
link |
His last name is Feel, F E A L, Feel Good Foundation.
link |
And this man literally went to Washington, DC
link |
with his army, as he called it.
link |
And I was honored and blessed to be with him
link |
a couple, only a couple times.
link |
I wish I had dedicated some more time to it.
link |
And what it was with John is he set out on a mission
link |
to get, and initially what he did is he got funding
link |
to take care of responders who were in that limbo,
link |
who couldn't get their medical bills paid,
link |
who couldn't make their mortgages,
link |
who couldn't make their car payments,
link |
who couldn't make their childcare payments.
link |
And John just took it upon his own to get donations
link |
and take care of you while you were suffering, right?
link |
I got a call when I got out of hospital.
link |
You need anything?
link |
I said, who is this?
link |
I said, aren't you that constructor?
link |
Yeah, you need anything?
link |
I'm pretty good right now.
link |
I said, I appreciate it.
link |
Phone ring again a few weeks later.
link |
Hey, John Feel, you need anything?
link |
I'm like, this guy's incredible.
link |
But there's people who needed stuff
link |
and he was getting it done.
link |
And he, with his army, had to chase these politicians
link |
through the halls of Congress
link |
to get funding to cover the medical bills.
link |
I was getting sued for $125,000
link |
for my month stay in the cancer ward.
link |
And I couldn't believe it.
link |
I said, well, wait a minute, I have insurance.
link |
They're like, oh, no, no, this is terrorism related.
link |
We don't cover that.
link |
So usually then workers comp will cover
link |
your on duty injury or illness.
link |
Oh, no, no, no, leukemia is not covered under that.
link |
We don't cover that.
link |
So then the ping pong game starts
link |
and I'm literally have people showing up,
link |
taking pictures of my kids in front of the house.
link |
And I went and grabbed the guy one day by the collar.
link |
So who the hell are you?
link |
Sir, I'm a private investigator.
link |
We're putting a lien on this property
link |
due to a nonpayment of a bill.
link |
I said, okay, I understand.
link |
Let me bring my kids inside.
link |
Take all the pictures you want.
link |
Don't step on my front lawn.
link |
And I went in the house.
link |
I closed my room, my door, my door, my room, and I cried.
link |
I said, I can't believe this.
link |
I spent my entire adult life trying to help people,
link |
give of myself, and I can't even get my medical bill paid.
link |
Well, John Field got my medical bill paid.
link |
He finally got these politicians with his team,
link |
firefighter Ray Pfeiffer, who has since died,
link |
fought with terminal cancer for nine years in a wheelchair.
link |
Literally at the end, came out of hospice
link |
to go finalize getting us this coverage.
link |
Detective Luis Alvarez, who testified days before he died
link |
in front of Congress, and a bunch of other guys
link |
that were really, really sick,
link |
and we had to shame these people into signing on.
link |
And luckily we had John Stewart come on
link |
and literally just hound these guys
link |
and shame them and embarrass them.
link |
And what it all stemmed from was in 2006,
link |
the first death that was determined to be linked to 9 11,
link |
but the first one that was officially linked
link |
was a New York City police detective who initially,
link |
the city said he died of advanced lung disease.
link |
His lungs were protruding out of his body.
link |
And he was on painkillers and it was so bad at the end
link |
that the doctor said, just grind them up, snort them,
link |
drink it, whatever you need to do to get instant relief.
link |
So when they found the talcum
link |
from the pill lining in his lungs,
link |
they said, oh no, this is opiate abuse.
link |
He didn't die of lung disease.
link |
So they said, and the mayor was quoted as saying,
link |
Well, shame on you, Mr. Mayor.
link |
And his father, who was a retired police chief,
link |
married up with the Feel Good Foundation
link |
and John Stewart and Ray Pfeiffer, Detective Alvarez.
link |
And they got us all covered.
link |
But it took so long.
link |
Like it was so heartbreaking.
link |
These people who were lining up three deep politicians,
link |
three deep to catch a picture with a responder
link |
so they can tweet, hashtag never forget
link |
and hashtag look at me and hey, how am I doing?
link |
All that bull crap.
link |
They were nowhere to be freaking found.
link |
I literally witnessed them hiding in cloak rooms,
link |
running down hallways away from us, those freaking cowards.
link |
Can I just linger on the John Stewart thing,
link |
the comedian, actor, John Stewart,
link |
his testimony before Congress over the benefits
link |
for 9 11 first responders.
link |
I mean, there's a lot of important human beings
link |
in the story, but he has a big voice.
link |
And he spoke from the heart.
link |
What do you make of that testimony?
link |
Oh, it was heartfelt.
link |
Look, I mean, John was a polarizing guy, right?
link |
There's certain things like over the years,
link |
he was cutting edge and I might not have agreed
link |
with all of his, you know, some stuff, some not, right?
link |
You know, like we all, but I tell you,
link |
I found him as funny.
link |
I enjoyed his humor.
link |
I would love the two of you to have a conversation.
link |
No, but again, I love a guy where you can have,
link |
you can have a difference in opinions.
link |
That's the beautiful thing about the firehouse kitchen.
link |
I mean, it could get raucous and now, I don't know,
link |
it's a little different situation,
link |
but I mean, back in the day, some funny stuff.
link |
But yeah, John, John literally just took his talents.
link |
You would think he was speaking from the heart
link |
of a fireman or a cop or a soldier or a Marine,
link |
you know, someone who was there.
link |
But I think he especially got to know Ray so well
link |
and Ray had this stack of mask cards from, you know,
link |
the funeral cards they give out.
link |
It looks like, you know, a larger business card
link |
And Ray had a stack of them he would carry around.
link |
I think it was close to a hundred cards
link |
and John saw it and he said, what's that?
link |
He says, these are my cards.
link |
He said, for what?
link |
He says, for my brother's funerals.
link |
He was like, oh my God, you've been to that many funerals?
link |
He goes, yeah, this is just the ones I made.
link |
Like, you know, and John, I think was just stunned.
link |
And John actually had that stack of cards
link |
after Ray passed and like said, look, look at these.
link |
There's gonna be more of these cards.
link |
We have one guy a week or girl,
link |
one responder or a recovery worker
link |
or someone who actually resided down there.
link |
There's more than one a week dying.
link |
It's one a day dying on average.
link |
And on average, two people are diagnosed
link |
with a 9 11 cancer or disease.
link |
Right now, the worst part is
link |
there's autoimmune diseases flying off the graph
link |
and they're not covered under the legislation.
link |
By the grace of God, my cancer is covered.
link |
If my cancer comes back, I mean, I'm in remission.
link |
It's technically incurable, but I've been blessed
link |
I'm staying ahead of this stuff going on 10 years.
link |
But if it comes back with a vengeance tomorrow and takes me,
link |
at least my wife will get my pension
link |
and be able to live her life without fear.
link |
But my friends who are suffering
link |
from these advanced autoimmunes, their wives get nothing.
link |
Their pension dies with them.
link |
And we're hoping that John and his army
link |
can shame these politicians once again
link |
to have the kindness and decency to cover these autoimmunes.
link |
You know, they're throwing a lot of money around
link |
at a lot of things lately.
link |
And this is one that they won't.
link |
And these are lives in the balance who really need it.
link |
And John had this strong line.
link |
They did their jobs, do yours, talking to the politicians.
link |
And it's a strong wake up call
link |
that it's not about the Twitter or the social media
link |
or all that kind of stuff.
link |
You have a job to do and you have to,
link |
it's that compassion implemented in the form of money
link |
of helping people that were there for you
link |
when you needed help.
link |
Well, we had a guy, I mean,
link |
I might get audited out of this one, I hope not,
link |
but we had a Congressman from out West,
link |
I won't say where, but he prided himself on saying
link |
he was a retired cop, a busy cop, 22 years.
link |
He said no on the legislation.
link |
I witnessed a cop who was dying get out of his wheelchair
link |
and said, hey brother, I got a half a million dollars
link |
in medical bills and I'm a short timer.
link |
I got a few months to live.
link |
Who the F is gonna pay him?
link |
Do the right thing.
link |
You say you're a cop, you show me you're a cop
link |
and you sign that paper.
link |
And the guy started tearing up the Congressman
link |
and he signed it, but he had to be freaking shamed.
link |
And you know what he said?
link |
Well, this doesn't really confront me.
link |
This is pork as far as my district is concerned.
link |
He goes, oh yeah, do you know there's 10 guys
link |
from your district who came across the country
link |
to help us that are also dying?
link |
And that's the sad part about Alex.
link |
It's a failure in leadership.
link |
I think some people would vote for Mickey Mouse
link |
just because if he ran.
link |
I mean, I have no offense against Mickey Mouse.
link |
I like him, he's a good guy, right?
link |
I mean, but like, I mean.
link |
Allegedly, supposedly.
link |
But seriously, I look at some of the leaderships sometimes
link |
and go, we're in trouble.
link |
And also you lose, I think the way government
link |
is structured is people who are senators
link |
or people who are in Congress,
link |
they start playing a game between each other
link |
and they lose track of the connection to the people,
link |
to the basic humanity.
link |
So you forget, even when you think of yourself as a cop,
link |
you forget what are like the cops and the other people
link |
servicing the community actually experiencing
link |
all the troubles they're going through
link |
and how they can actually be helped
link |
because you lose touch to that
link |
because you're not actually living,
link |
you're not talking to them, you're not living among them.
link |
And I mean, that's a natural part of the system,
link |
but I think that's why character and great leadership
link |
is important is you say you leave the game of Congress
link |
and you go back to the people.
link |
I mean, that's what the country,
link |
it's like the George Washington ideal
link |
is you're not playing a game of power.
link |
You're ultimately see yourself as somebody who's servicing
link |
this country's service in the community
link |
and that requires talking to the people
link |
in their time of hardship.
link |
Well, you have some people serving
link |
in congressional districts don't even live in that district.
link |
I mean, so how are they gonna empathize?
link |
They're not even driving through there on a daily basis.
link |
And again, when anything becomes lucrative
link |
from a financial standpoint, it blurs people's vision.
link |
You have to take the potential
link |
of becoming rich out of politics.
link |
Politics is public service.
link |
Police and fire and EMS are public service,
link |
but cops and firemen and medics don't walk out
link |
of their career with gazillion dollar contracts
link |
with this company and that company
link |
on that board of directors and this board of directors.
link |
They walk out with a pension and that's it.
link |
And you have to wonder the intentions
link |
of people getting into politics.
link |
Are they truly going into to help the human condition
link |
or are they trying to help their own damn condition
link |
with their wallet and their pocketbook?
link |
And I try to lean toward the latter lately
link |
with what I'm seeing out there.
link |
Well, some of them are the good ones
link |
and that's our job as a society is to elevate the good ones.
link |
That's it and that has to do with the ideals that we elevate.
link |
There are a number of conspiracy theories
link |
around the events of 9 11.
link |
Do any of these hold true to you
link |
or do they just frustrate you, even anger you?
link |
I've been asked this by a few different people in my life.
link |
This is my take on it, right?
link |
You're a man of science and a man of education.
link |
Allegedly, but yes, but you're a very, very intelligent man.
link |
And what I believe took place is this.
link |
Structural steel will fail
link |
at a sustained temperature of 1500 degrees Fahrenheit.
link |
And I don't know exactly how long
link |
that would have to be sustained, but that's the temp, right?
link |
Diesel fuel, kerosene fuel, kerosene based jet fuel,
link |
which was the ignition there burns
link |
at 2200 degrees Fahrenheit.
link |
So that continued burning of that diesel, that jet fuel,
link |
but kerosene based, it's all kind of similar
link |
exceeded the temperature needed for that steel
link |
in the structural members of the trade center to fail.
link |
In my heart of hearts, I would hate to ever think
link |
that somebody affiliated with our government
link |
with some sort of agenda would perpetrate that crime
link |
and that tragic just destruction of humanity and property
link |
for some other form of gain.
link |
Those planes rammed into those buildings
link |
at 450 miles an hour.
link |
They were loaded with thousands and thousands
link |
of gallons of jet fuel.
link |
Number seven trade center had the backup
link |
for the emergency management system for the city.
link |
And it was an emergency generator in that complex
link |
which had a 25,000 gallon tank of diesel fuel
link |
to continually run for weeks to keep the 911 system,
link |
the backup system going in the case of a catastrophic event.
link |
Well, that tank in seven heated up from the fire
link |
that was already going on from the aircraft debris
link |
coming into the building.
link |
So once that diesel became ignited in seven,
link |
now you had enough temperature to fail that steel
link |
So I would like to truly believe what I've learned
link |
from the minimal fire science knowledge I have
link |
from my career, that it was just a matter of,
link |
it burned too long, it burned too hot and it failed.
link |
I mean, if you look at the way it came down,
link |
it came down as it was designed to
link |
in the God forbid event that it was to collapse.
link |
It came down pancaking upon itself.
link |
If it had failed horizontally
link |
and just sprayed out side to side,
link |
those buildings would have dropped for a quarter,
link |
half a mile up to Canal Street.
link |
But you know, Lex, I can't.
link |
The fire and the destruction that could have resulted.
link |
Yeah, oh my gosh, it could have been so much worse.
link |
I mean, you would have taken out every building
link |
from that point all the way up.
link |
But in my heart, I'd like to just believe
link |
that it was just a fire that burned too long and too hot.
link |
These planes cause structural damage upon impact
link |
in both buildings and it was just a matter of time.
link |
And then you think about it, you add all the plastics,
link |
all the carpeting, all of the stuff
link |
that was burning on those floors.
link |
You add that to that fire load.
link |
I think it just had enough to collapse it.
link |
And you were in building seven for part of that day.
link |
I was just after it came down as well.
link |
We were aside it and we weren't in it or next to it
link |
when it actually did come down.
link |
But moments after we were there.
link |
And again, I would like to believe that it just,
link |
it was just that that fuel was going
link |
and it just took its physics, took its course and it failed.
link |
So physics and science aside, it's hard.
link |
It's both I would like to believe
link |
and it's hard to imagine that anybody would be so evil
link |
as to orchestrate parts of this
link |
from within the United States government.
link |
That's very difficult for me to imagine.
link |
You know what though, Lex, there's people
link |
and I won't elaborate, I won't get into it.
link |
Any controversial subjects or what have you.
link |
There's some people that don't have any problem at all
link |
perpetrating any level of evil.
link |
People like you and I who have hearts
link |
and we have depth of soul.
link |
We couldn't imagine it, but there's other people
link |
wouldn't even be a second thought.
link |
I mean, I've seen some horrific incidents in my career
link |
that I go home shaking my head at night going,
link |
human beings are just, they're not wired right.
link |
You know, I mean, I look at animals, I love animals,
link |
I love dogs especially, right.
link |
And I see this dog park when I train to fly airplanes now
link |
and something I wanted to do.
link |
And there's a dog park across from the airport
link |
and there's 60 dogs and there's bones flying up in the air
link |
and chew toys and sticks and they're running around
link |
having the time of their life, right.
link |
And they're all getting along
link |
and they're not hurting each other.
link |
They're not violating each other.
link |
They're not canceling each other.
link |
And I'm going, we really need to learn from these dogs.
link |
And like, I just, yeah.
link |
I mean, sometimes it sounds crazy,
link |
but I think they're a better species than people.
link |
Unless they're rabid, they don't hurt on purpose.
link |
They don't, you know, they don't cut you off in traffic
link |
and throw you the middle finger.
link |
And you know, they just don't do these acts of humanity
link |
that sometimes are so vicious.
link |
Why do you think these conspiracy theories
link |
of which there's a lot take hold?
link |
Why do you think so many people believe
link |
some version of different conspiracy theories around 9 11?
link |
Well, you know, like many things in life,
link |
it leaves me a little conflicted.
link |
I have to say this, I am at the point now,
link |
I don't know who to believe anymore.
link |
So I could see that lending a hand to someone
link |
who's already a doubter going, oh yeah, look,
link |
exactly, that's what they're doing, right.
link |
I mean, you know, look at this whole virus.
link |
Like, who do you believe?
link |
Like, where'd it come from?
link |
You know, like, and you know, if you plant that seed,
link |
it's like that little campfire
link |
we were talking about earlier, right?
link |
You just toss a little gas into those embers.
link |
You got a fire now.
link |
I also think there's a lot of people
link |
with a hell of a lot of extra time on their hands, right?
link |
And they're really bored.
link |
And the two are combined.
link |
Alex, yeah, man, you know, like, look,
link |
I was a three job Charlie, right?
link |
You know, one guy used to say to me, anything but home.
link |
I go, no, I got deadlines, responsibilities.
link |
You know, like, that's what it comes down to is like,
link |
I mean, look, we all have our hobbies and things we like
link |
and, you know, little nuances.
link |
And that's what makes us special.
link |
Every person is a unique being.
link |
But I also think some people just,
link |
they want to cling to something.
link |
Like, we all want to feel accepted and belong to something.
link |
So all of a sudden you group up with these people
link |
and you all believe this fervently.
link |
Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, they did it.
link |
They took it down.
link |
They took it down.
link |
And now you start going, yeah.
link |
And I think what happens is when you're in company of people
link |
and you start telling each other the same thing often,
link |
you freaking believe it.
link |
I mean, if you keep telling me I got a gray head of hair,
link |
I'm going to go, you know what?
link |
I got that waving bye bye do.
link |
But like, but you know,
link |
I think when you start hearing something often,
link |
you start believing it.
link |
But I'm not going to,
link |
I'm not going to doubt their intelligence.
link |
I'm not going to doubt their intentions,
link |
but I just don't see it as being plausible.
link |
I just, I, it would be too,
link |
too big of an operation to successfully happen.
link |
I, you know, I mean, look, there's other things that,
link |
you know, I won't say it on the interview there,
link |
but like I have my doubts with certain things,
link |
you know, that, that.
link |
I mean, conspiracy theories take hold for a reason.
link |
Cause some of them are true.
link |
The hard thing is just to know which ones is the problem.
link |
When you don't have facts, right?
link |
Or you don't know who to trust.
link |
Sometimes when you don't have facts,
link |
when you don't have figures and you don't have science,
link |
it's hard to take someone's word on it.
link |
You know, I had a conversation
link |
with someone a while back, right?
link |
And the guy's like, just, just dedicated atheist.
link |
And he thinks I'm an idiot for believing in God.
link |
And he's like, yo, you're one of those jerks
link |
who believes in creation.
link |
And I said, well, I do.
link |
Well, what about the big bang theory?
link |
He's going on his diatribe about the science
link |
and the gases and the chemistry.
link |
And I'm going, dude,
link |
I barely got through high school chemistry, slow down.
link |
And he went on a tangent and all of a sudden I stopped.
link |
I went, who, who created the gas and the molecules
link |
and the stuff you're talking about and the collisions?
link |
And he was furious and stoned off.
link |
And again, I had no facts.
link |
He didn't either, but I stumped him.
link |
But sometimes when you can't show something,
link |
people need to see something tangible.
link |
They need to see it in their hand to believe it.
link |
And that's the real hard thing about faith.
link |
I see it in action.
link |
People restore my faith.
link |
And then I say to myself, well,
link |
there can't be that many dummies in this world
link |
if there's so many billions of us believing
link |
in this higher power, this higher, right?
link |
I mean, and you said, you said earlier,
link |
like you believe most people are good and I do too.
link |
The bad outshine the good because the bad get the press.
link |
If it bleeds, it leads.
link |
That's just, you know, like, think about it.
link |
How many more damn zombie apocalypse movies can we make?
link |
I didn't even know there was that many zombies.
link |
And it just seems like every other show
link |
is just guys like, you know,
link |
bashing each other's heads in with bats with nails in it.
link |
And it's like, after a while, it's like,
link |
all right, gosh, you gotta get a new boogeyman here.
link |
Like, but seriously, like.
link |
But meanwhile, human civilization
link |
is getting better and better.
link |
We're just like making Hollywood movies.
link |
No, we're getting better and better,
link |
but we're treating each other worse and worse.
link |
You would think with all this technology
link |
and all the knowledge and all the,
link |
it's like, what the hell is going on sometimes?
link |
Like, I really want to see the good.
link |
And I think maybe, maybe the level of bad
link |
that we're seeing was always existent.
link |
It's just now everything is instantaneous news
link |
and flashes and tweets and this and this.
link |
Like, like, you know.
link |
Well, with the technology we have,
link |
it's also come to the light.
link |
So you get to see all these fights.
link |
It almost, I think that's step one
link |
of dealing with the problem is revealing it
link |
in its full beautiful light.
link |
How much of a bickering species we are.
link |
50 years ago, a guy like me who loves to talk,
link |
how the hell would I have gotten an opportunity
link |
to have someone listen to me and have, right?
link |
But like, but you didn't have that arena.
link |
You didn't have all these things.
link |
My grandfather, Nels, God rest him, he died in 1979.
link |
I mean, that dude didn't even want to have
link |
a checking account.
link |
He would walk to each store, each, the phone company,
link |
the gas company, this company, and pay the bill in person.
link |
He didn't trust the bank.
link |
And it was like, now, ATMs, this, that,
link |
he would be overwhelmed.
link |
He'd be just like, I mean, I love my dad,
link |
but to watch him on his iPad is comical, right?
link |
He calls my niece's boyfriend, who's a tech guy,
link |
Matt, Matt, if you listen, he's the greatest.
link |
He'll have this poor guy on the phone for like hours.
link |
Like the second you'll walk in to see my father, my kids,
link |
hey, do me a favor, you fucking straighten out this pad.
link |
And it's comical because I'm looking at my dad
link |
and I'm going, he was born when Hitler started World War II.
link |
And I'm going, he's seen all of that.
link |
Oh, my wife's grandmother was born in 1900 in Czechoslovakia
link |
and she died in 1998.
link |
I'm going, holy, the stuff she saw in the span of her life,
link |
just, it's just incredible.
link |
But what troubles me sometimes is with all of these advances
link |
and all these devices, this is what I say to my kids,
link |
look up from the phone and look up, right?
link |
Because we don't talk anymore.
link |
I saw a girl literally, and I shouldn't say girl, guy,
link |
whatever, I saw a person literally just about walking
link |
to an open manhole cover texting.
link |
And I'm going, that's scary
link |
because your awareness is gone.
link |
And it's, I've been at restaurants, groups of people
link |
and they're texting, they're texting each other
link |
just sitting on the other side of the table.
link |
I'm like, put the freaking thing down
link |
and have a conversation.
link |
And that's the thing, we've lost the art of conversation.
link |
You know, like, my wife runs, she has this running joke.
link |
She goes, there's a lot going on up there.
link |
And I'm like, yeah, because I really, I'm inquisitive.
link |
I'm excited about life.
link |
I love to meet people.
link |
I love, and the only way you can do that
link |
is to have a conversation.
link |
The hilarious thing about this,
link |
so you're obviously very charismatic.
link |
You got great stories.
link |
You're a great human being.
link |
And you're talking to a guy who spent most of his life
link |
behind a computer hiding from people.
link |
No, no, and I don't.
link |
But we're like trying to bridge this.
link |
Right, but I don't mean that as a rip,
link |
but you, I would never know that.
link |
I would never know that because you're very engaging.
link |
You're very, like, I would not know,
link |
like you don't have any impediments
link |
to your social skills, your personal, and that's,
link |
and again, I don't mean it as a knock to you
link |
and these young people.
link |
Well, no, but this is me trying to look up
link |
from a smartphone is having these conversations,
link |
talking to people.
link |
I think it's important.
link |
I mean, some of it could be, it's always hard to know.
link |
Some of it could be just you and I being old school,
link |
because you grew up before the internet.
link |
Maybe there is joy and deep human connection
link |
to be discovered inside the smartphone.
link |
We don't, it doesn't seem that way,
link |
because the smartphone's so new,
link |
maybe we just haven't figured out those things,
link |
because there's a globalizing aspect.
link |
There's a opportunity for you to connect with people
link |
from across the world in ways that.
link |
I have cousins in Ireland and England.
link |
I get a FaceTime or a WhatsApp and it's like, holy crap,
link |
they're, you know, three, 4,000 miles away
link |
and I'm having a conversation now.
link |
I used to send my grandma in Ireland a letter.
link |
She passed when I was 10.
link |
And, no, I'm sorry, I was 11.
link |
And I sent her a letter, airmailed,
link |
and I'd wait and I'd wait, and about two weeks later,
link |
this airmail letter would come back
link |
and she'd call me Master Nils William Jorgensen.
link |
I would be so excited, open that bad letter.
link |
Handwritten, just like. Yeah, and like,
link |
and then I'd write her another one
link |
and I just couldn't wait for letters from granny.
link |
And now it's like, you know, that's kind of faded away.
link |
Yeah, I still write letters, by the way, handwritten.
link |
The way this all came about was I wrote a letter
link |
to someone to say thank you for cancer research.
link |
I'm blessed to be alive.
link |
That's a good starting point for any story.
link |
I'm blessed to be alive.
link |
And my cancer was one that if I got it 15 years prior
link |
to 19, excuse me, 2011, I was a dead man, right?
link |
15, 20 years before there was no drug to treat.
link |
I was gone, going home to see him.
link |
So there's this wonderful gentleman
link |
that donated hundreds of millions of dollars
link |
to cancer research, Mr. David Koch.
link |
He's since, God rest his soul, passed away.
link |
And he's a controversial guy, big time business titan.
link |
And, you know, there was,
link |
the press was just brutalizing him one day
link |
over something to do with his politics.
link |
Now, I'm a union guy, proudly served in unions,
link |
still in a union, you know?
link |
And he was not, you know,
link |
most business guys don't like unions, right?
link |
But, you know, most guys like me don't like working
link |
for $3 an hour, so we like our unions, right?
link |
And I reached out across the table, so to speak,
link |
and I sent him a handwritten letter to thank him,
link |
to say, we may not agree on everything,
link |
but I can't thank you enough.
link |
There's just this regular dude out there
link |
who is now living his life, watching his kids grow.
link |
Thanks to generous people like you
link |
who believe enough in cancer research, you've saved my life.
link |
Maybe, I can't say his exact dollars, but people like him.
link |
And he reached back out and his secretary said,
link |
oh, he'd like to talk to you on the phone.
link |
I go, well, he's kind of a busy guy,
link |
he wants to talk to me, he's a billionaire.
link |
And he got on the phone,
link |
he was like the greatest guy in the world.
link |
Invited me up to Sloan Kettering
link |
to dedicate a new cancer wing.
link |
It was like I was hanging out with my dad.
link |
And the sweetest man, just so kind, so empathy,
link |
because he was a cancer survivor.
link |
But now he's got the means to help people
link |
who've suffered his fate to a better place.
link |
And he was so real and it was so beautiful
link |
just to get to know, say, hey, you know what?
link |
This guy is a big time guy,
link |
but yeah, he's just a regular human like you and I.
link |
I'm a guy who went to night college and I went to the army
link |
and I'm a blue collar kind of dude.
link |
And here's this guy who went to MIT, like you,
link |
and he's a wildly successful billionaire, a genius.
link |
But yet he can sit down and mix it up with me
link |
and know that I was truly grateful.
link |
And that to me was just like one of the coolest
link |
little relationships I've ever had.
link |
It wasn't like we were hanging out,
link |
having barbecues together, but like, you know,
link |
it was just, I was so touched by his decency.
link |
Well, the basics of the, like cancer reveals, you know,
link |
it's like fundamental to the human experience.
link |
It's trauma, it's tragedy.
link |
It's like money, who gives a shit about money?
link |
Education, all of that is like weird new inventions.
link |
You know, life is short.
link |
You suffer with the various diseases.
link |
And that is a reminder that life is short
link |
and a reminder of the basic human connection.
link |
And that's why you can bridge that gap.
link |
All sparked by a handwritten letter,
link |
which just makes for a hell of a story.
link |
And you know what, Lex?
link |
This is the commonality between us.
link |
A guy with three jobs to a billionaire.
link |
We both had that sense of a sledgehammer to the chest.
link |
Boom, you have cancer and you can't breathe
link |
for like 30 seconds.
link |
And then when your heart's just about to kick off
link |
and you take a breath and you go, I'm sorry,
link |
what'd you say, doc?
link |
And it don't matter what kind.
link |
One of my best buddies, Bobby's going through right now,
link |
a prostate, and I got way too many of my buddies
link |
with cancer, right?
link |
My buddy, Hugh, who became a vet since his first cancer,
link |
he was a fireman, he's now a veterinarian, right?
link |
He diagnosed me actually over the phone, by the way.
link |
When they couldn't figure out what was wrong with me.
link |
Well, Dr. Hugh, he nailed it to the T.
link |
And the same thing that the dozen of my close friends
link |
that have cancer, the same thing we say is the fear.
link |
So Mr. Koch and I, we shared that same sledgehammer
link |
to the chest and that same fear.
link |
And it didn't matter how much money he had
link |
and how much I didn't.
link |
And you know, it's just like the morning of the trade center.
link |
There was big time brokers who went to their demise, right?
link |
Working in these firms, God rest them.
link |
And there was dishwashers, excuse me,
link |
dishwashers up on the windows on the world restaurant
link |
on the 107th floor, making five bucks an hour.
link |
And they died together, it didn't matter.
link |
It didn't matter if you had an armored car
link |
loaded with bills, you were done that day.
link |
And that's, I think where people need
link |
to humanize each other.
link |
Just because you drive around in a nice car
link |
and you got your own jet and you got this and you got that,
link |
don't mean nothing.
link |
When you're going, when you're in that vulnerable spot,
link |
you could have more money than the US reserves.
link |
Federal reserve, or you could have a welfare check.
link |
I learned that in a cancer ward.
link |
I had people in my ward that died on me.
link |
I was going around as a little bit of an ambassador
link |
because I was trying to, I was putting on a fake,
link |
I was putting on a fake like I got this, I got this.
link |
But when I got past that seven days of torture
link |
and the days leading up to it,
link |
I'd go around and try to comfort the other cancer patients.
link |
I had this one older African American gentleman,
link |
he couldn't talk because he had
link |
such advanced throat cancer.
link |
He was my roommate for a little while,
link |
but then he got worse so they had to put him by himself.
link |
And you couldn't understand what he was saying
link |
because his throat was just so radiated from the radiation.
link |
But if you put your ear down to him,
link |
you could make out what he was saying.
link |
And I'm not faulting the nurses
link |
for maybe not wanting to do that, right?
link |
They're busy, they got a ton going on,
link |
they can't spend, you know.
link |
So if he was in need, I'd put my ear down
link |
and I'd find out and I'd go get it for him.
link |
So when they moved me down the hall,
link |
they asked me to come down with my IV tower.
link |
And I knew it was bad because he just, his look was gone.
link |
And I said, sir, what do you need?
link |
And he whispered, call my sister, I'm going.
link |
He had only one survivor in his whole life.
link |
And she was in North Carolina and he wanted her to know
link |
she couldn't get up, she was elderly.
link |
And I got the nurse and I got on the phone
link |
and I called his sister and I said, ma'm,
link |
I explained who I was.
link |
And I said, he can't really talk.
link |
He can't really verbalize too well right now,
link |
but he wants to say he loves you.
link |
And I put the phone down and he told her he loved her
link |
and he said, I'm going home.
link |
And I hung the phone up and I said, ma'm, I'm so sorry.
link |
I said, you know, they'll notify you.
link |
And I stayed with him for a while holding his hand
link |
and then, you know, they wanted him to rest.
link |
And then I left and then I got the tap an hour later
link |
and they said, I'm sorry, he's gone.
link |
And then there was another girl and she was a young girl
link |
from one of the areas I work, young African American girl
link |
where I used to respond and I didn't know her,
link |
but I knew her neighborhood.
link |
And she had what I had, but they weren't sure which one.
link |
You know, leukemias, they're an elusive beast.
link |
There's 49 of them, right?
link |
And each one of them is like,
link |
they got their own little nuances,
link |
own specific treatments.
link |
So if they don't know what you have,
link |
they don't know what to do for you.
link |
And she refused to let him drill into her hip
link |
to take the marrow because it's vicious.
link |
It's like someone born into your hip with a wood drill
link |
And they asked me to try to convince her
link |
to let them do that or she was gonna die.
link |
Cause if they couldn't figure it out, it was advancing quickly.
link |
She was, so I talked to her and she said,
link |
I can't, I can't, I'm too scared.
link |
I said, but are you more scared to die?
link |
And she said, I am.
link |
I said, okay, I'll stay with you.
link |
I'll hold your hand.
link |
You squeeze it as hard as you want.
link |
I said, if you want, they'll give you like a towel
link |
or something to bite on, whatever.
link |
I said, but you get that pain out,
link |
but you need to do this so you can get saved.
link |
And she said, okay.
link |
And they came in and they, this huge thick needle,
link |
they just bore it into you.
link |
And she's screaming for her life
link |
and she's squeezing my fingers so hard and so hard.
link |
And I said, that's okay, hon.
link |
You keep going, you keep going.
link |
It's just 10 more seconds, 10 more seconds.
link |
They figured out her treatment
link |
and they got her onto her road to recovery.
link |
And then I spent a long time asking God, why do I have cancer?
link |
Then I stopped and I went, wait a minute.
link |
I didn't die that day with my friends.
link |
Shame on me for asking them why I have cancer.
link |
I had 10 years after 9 11 with such great ears.
link |
And I got to watch my little girl being born
link |
when John never got to see his son.
link |
So it was all gravy after that.
link |
And I said, but now I know why I have my cancer
link |
because I can empathize with people who have it.
link |
And I can try to be their voice when they can't talk,
link |
be their shield to try to take that pain
link |
because I can understand, I can walk their walk.
link |
And now I thank God for my cancer
link |
because it's made me a better human being.
link |
It's made me, I'm not gonna lie,
link |
it brought a lot of anger for a while
link |
and my family suffered it,
link |
but I really tried to go past that and heal
link |
and part of living out in the country.
link |
It's very, very healing for the mind and the soul.
link |
But I now thank God for the cancer
link |
because it humbled me.
link |
I didn't really need humbling.
link |
I wasn't an arrogant puffed up type of person at all,
link |
but maybe I was running away at myself a little bit
link |
and working on a TV show, I'm fine, man.
link |
30 at the time, well, I was 42, I got sick.
link |
Life was cruising, man, it was great.
link |
And then all of a sudden it was like a blow out
link |
on the highway in the middle of the night
link |
and you were just veering off towards the guardrail.
link |
Yeah, you remembered, you're reminded that you're mortal
link |
and that's ultimately a connection to all the rest of us.
link |
Oh yeah, it's a good thing though,
link |
because that's the problem, I think.
link |
There's a lot of people running around
link |
and thinking they're immortal, right?
link |
You know, when you look at it, Lex, right?
link |
You look at the heartache in a lot of segments of people
link |
and anytime like someone that's got fame and wealth
link |
and success and they die tragically,
link |
a lot of times it's from a substance abuse
link |
or just some horrible death.
link |
And I used to say to myself,
link |
how the hell would someone with that much money
link |
and that much fame and this freaking mansion
link |
and I love cars, my son and I are just big car heads,
link |
you know, I'm like, you know, this guy's got a collection
link |
of cars and he overdosed because he was sad.
link |
And I'm going, how the frig are you sad?
link |
But then I stop and I go, okay,
link |
because maybe he doesn't have any idea who loves him.
link |
He's got a lot of people clinging onto him
link |
because of his success.
link |
And he just, he can't fill that void, you know?
link |
And then they fill the void with something destructive.
link |
And I'm not bashing people that have substance abuse
link |
problems or alcohol problems, I don't mean it that way.
link |
But what I mean is it's just sad that their level
link |
of despair is so high, on the surface,
link |
they look like they just got everything going on.
link |
It's all great, right?
link |
They're still human, still got to deal with the same.
link |
Yeah, exactly, because they want love, right?
link |
They want love and they can't really find it.
link |
Well, first of all, that's true for all of us.
link |
I think we're deeply lonely and looking for love
link |
and when we find it, that's what friendship is.
link |
And then that's true for whether you're super rich
link |
or super poor, it's all the same journey.
link |
My dad said all the time, kid, you're gonna end up
link |
working with hundreds of guys and you'll love a lot of them
link |
but he says when it's all said and done
link |
and you're all like me and if you've still got
link |
two or three of them that you talk to and you'll love.
link |
And I tell you what, I mean, I have thanked the Lord
link |
more than two or three of them and I have my six,
link |
I call it my six, it's the six guys that are gonna
link |
carry my coffin when I'm gone, right?
link |
Because I know this cancer's gonna come back, I know it.
link |
Like we get multiples, right?
link |
My friend Yvette just got his second.
link |
My friend Mike's had five of them.
link |
My other Mike has two of them, yeah.
link |
But I wasn't ready to accept it in 2011.
link |
There was so much more to do and it was so much,
link |
I was so scared, I'm like wow, who's gonna take care
link |
of my kids and who, you know, they were little.
link |
Nine, 11 and 14, right?
link |
It's like what the hell, I have two girls and a boy
link |
in between and they're beautiful kids.
link |
They're such good, good children, adults now.
link |
I mean, but you know, my wife's a drill sergeant,
link |
she's tough, she don't mess, you know, she's this big.
link |
So you're the softy in the family, I'm just kidding.
link |
Well, you know, it's funny because my son said to me,
link |
my son's 21 now, he's a good kid, you know.
link |
And he says to me, back when he was like 12,
link |
he goes, dad, I don't want you to be offended
link |
but I'm really scared of mom,
link |
I'm not really that scared of you.
link |
And you know, like I cracked up because it's true,
link |
she's gotta stand on like a milk crate to reach him
link |
because you know, she's tiny and he's tall,
link |
but it's true, but you know, but she was hard but fair,
link |
but loved, that's, see, this is the thing,
link |
you take any child anywhere from any background,
link |
if you love them, you nurture them,
link |
you teach them and you guide them,
link |
you have a successful adult.
link |
And see, that's the problem in our society,
link |
it's not judgmental, I'm not judging anyone,
link |
but we need to try harder as parents
link |
as siblings, as friends,
link |
but especially when we're blessed with a child,
link |
it's like, you gotta put that child first,
link |
it's like being a military personal responder,
link |
it's not about you anymore, now it's the team.
link |
So that little child is now the team
link |
and you know, your wife or your significant other,
link |
you know, like it's not about you anymore.
link |
And see, that's the problem is people have a hard time
link |
not making it about them, you know,
link |
like now it's really weird, my kids are 19, 21 and 24
link |
and they hardly wanna hang with me
link |
because they're busy in their life, we love each other,
link |
they're probably tired of hearing me go on
link |
and you know, preach and whatever,
link |
but like, but they're adults,
link |
we did pretty much the crux of what we had to do
link |
to put them into adulthood.
link |
And I look back and I go, wow,
link |
I wish I didn't work so much and I wish,
link |
but then I say, no, but it was okay,
link |
my wife stayed home, good lessons, good, you know,
link |
But ultimately, like you said, it's love.
link |
It is, it's the common,
link |
love is the most important ingredient on this earth
link |
and that's the problem what's going on right now,
link |
like take politics out of it, right?
link |
Take polarizing each other against each other,
link |
take all that crap out of it
link |
and just airdrop a bunch of love, right?
link |
Like when I worked on Rescuing Me, right?
link |
I love those people so much, they were such great,
link |
we had such a great crew and they worked so hard.
link |
You're a celebrity.
link |
No, no, no, not at all.
link |
If I was, it didn't really work out so good.
link |
I went on to be in the stagehand,
link |
no, I'm not pretty, but they don't want old guys
link |
waving bye bye hairdos, but it was funny,
link |
the crew, we became really tight,
link |
we had like, shoot, like 80, 90 people on a set, right?
link |
And you know, the first few episodes,
link |
everybody's trying to feel each other out
link |
because you know, you work with different crews,
link |
different people and this is going back,
link |
starting in 2004, so it was a different time
link |
and I love to hug people
link |
because to me, a hug is a true expression
link |
of love and caring.
link |
You may not know a person a long time,
link |
but you say, I care about you with a hug.
link |
Can I add just a tiny tangent?
link |
This was in the midst of COVID when I was in Boston
link |
and it was, you know, masks, like triple masks, nobody.
link |
And when I went to see Joe here
link |
when he was trying to convince me to move to Austin,
link |
Joe Rogan, and then the first time I see him,
link |
he's like, ah, you motherfucking big ass hug.
link |
And it felt so good.
link |
But people probably looked horrified.
link |
Oh, okay, I know what I'm saying,
link |
but if you do it in public now,
link |
it's like you committed.
link |
But that expression, because I was so,
link |
you forget how powerful that is.
link |
Oh, I got some of my buddies.
link |
I give them a huge hug and a big sloppy kiss on their cheek
link |
and I, cause I love them.
link |
They, these are my brothers, you know?
link |
But on this set, I swear to God, it got to the point
link |
and I'm not trying to whatever,
link |
but there was people that would come up to me
link |
for the daily hug.
link |
And I said, what are you doing?
link |
And they said, come on, bring it in.
link |
And I give them the hug and they said, you don't understand.
link |
It just makes me feel so good.
link |
It makes me feel like you give a crap about me.
link |
I said, I really do.
link |
I said, but it touched my heart
link |
that people were seeking me out
link |
to get that hug to start the day.
link |
And I remember there was a guy in Manhattan,
link |
he was selling hugs for like 50 cents
link |
and I think he got arrested, right?
link |
It was just before COVID.
link |
But like, I wouldn't sell them if, but now.
link |
You've given them away for free.
link |
Well, now I got leukemia.
link |
I'd be kind of concerned to get into COVID.
link |
I mean, but like, I really think we need that.
link |
We need hugging booths, like in each city or each town.
link |
Like, because there's so many people
link |
that just want to know someone gives a shit about them.
link |
And that's the problem.
link |
It's like, like, you know,
link |
that's what I love about small little towns
link |
like where I am now in Tennessee.
link |
And I'm not knocking New York.
link |
I'm not knocking big towns,
link |
but I guess it's easier to do in a smaller area
link |
because it's just not this mass of humanity.
link |
But they'll stop and check on you.
link |
Like you're out in the road and you know,
link |
like I'm cutting and cleaning or whatever.
link |
Occasionally I'll roll a lawnmower or a tractor
link |
into a ditch cause I'm not a farmer, too good.
link |
But it's easier to drive a fire truck in New York.
link |
But they literally, oh, I was worried.
link |
I haven't seen you.
link |
And I'm like, no, no, I'm okay.
link |
But they literally like check on you.
link |
They're worried about you.
link |
And I'm going, these people hardly know me,
link |
but yet they're so caring.
link |
And that's the problem.
link |
Like this is what I love about my life.
link |
I spent a lot of time as, especially as a young boy
link |
and a lot of time in Ireland at my grandma's farm.
link |
And my mom comes from this tiny, tiny little village.
link |
She's out in the middle of nowhere.
link |
And the childhood home she grew up in still,
link |
my aunt and uncle live in it still.
link |
I just love it there so much.
link |
Cause everyone waves.
link |
Tennessee's similar.
link |
They wave, driving by and you're like,
link |
who the hell's that?
link |
I just wave, you know.
link |
But my cousin will point it out.
link |
Actually third cousin, second removed by, you know, Johnny.
link |
Like, holy shoot, I'm related to everyone here, right?
link |
But like everyone stops to say hello and how are you?
link |
And I have a problem doing that because my wife goes,
link |
people think you're crazy.
link |
Why are you talking to everybody?
link |
I said, like, I'll literally stop someone and say,
link |
how's your day going?
link |
Like, I mean, I'll randomly on the sidewalk.
link |
Then it looks a little nuts.
link |
But like, if I'm buying a cup of coffee.
link |
Oh, that happens here in Austin all the time.
link |
That's why I love it here on the sidewalk randomly.
link |
Yeah, no, it's just so nice.
link |
They'll say hi to me.
link |
I thought they recognized me or something.
link |
I don't give a shit who you are.
link |
They're just being nice.
link |
I was on the road coming back,
link |
driving from my family up north down to Tennessee last week.
link |
I stopped in a bathroom and it was closed.
link |
The girl was cleaning it, whatever.
link |
She's working so hard, whatever.
link |
And she goes, sir, she goes,
link |
if you go down the hall, there's a family restroom.
link |
Feel free to use it.
link |
You know, she didn't have to do that.
link |
And I went down and I'm old.
link |
You need a bathroom, you need a bathroom, right?
link |
And I walked back out and I said, ma'm,
link |
I said, I want to thank you for being here today.
link |
I says, the bathroom was immaculate.
link |
It was, it was like my army bathroom in the barracks.
link |
It was spotless, right?
link |
And I gave her $10.
link |
I said, I'd really like you to buy lunch with me today.
link |
I said, you really didn't have to do me that favor.
link |
And she goes, no, sir.
link |
And it was like I gave her a million bucks.
link |
And I say to my wife now,
link |
I've been praying to be a billionaire.
link |
She goes, that's a sin.
link |
I said, no, no, you don't understand, right?
link |
She goes, oh, you're Mr., you know, Mr. God.
link |
I said, no, no, no.
link |
I said, you're getting it wrong.
link |
I said, I'm praying to be like a multi gazillionaire
link |
because I want to give it all away.
link |
We used to have a sign in ladder 114
link |
until some other rival truck company stole it, right?
link |
Cause that's what we do.
link |
You know, they get sent to cover your district
link |
when you're at a fire and now your stuff's missing.
link |
And the old timers had a sign that says, I am content.
link |
Because if you got to ladder 114,
link |
that was considered such a great place,
link |
such a great assignment, such great guys.
link |
You had to be vetted to get there.
link |
You couldn't just randomly go.
link |
And it was a little exclusionary, but they wanted good guys.
link |
And I said to myself, that's who I am in life right now.
link |
I am content, but I'm restless
link |
because I want to really do a lot more good.
link |
It's like this podcast.
link |
I want to make sure that it's not forgotten.
link |
And I want to make sure that these charities
link |
that are really, really helping people get recognized.
link |
But I'd like to take it a step further, right?
link |
A friend of mine runs this foundation
link |
for young folks suffering mental illness and in crisis.
link |
It's for someone that we love dearly.
link |
And he's on a mission now to get therapy dogs
link |
for really, really mentally wounded warriors, right?
link |
A lot of these young soldiers are having a really hard time.
link |
And now they could be out a while.
link |
They may have come back in country two, three years ago.
link |
Now it's just starting to set in.
link |
And there's a waiting list for thousands of therapy dogs.
link |
And he said that they can't get enough of them quick enough.
link |
But he said, when you see the response,
link |
the way these veterans just light up
link |
when they get these dogs,
link |
it just changes their life radically, immediately.
link |
And I said, that's it.
link |
God, I don't know how I'm going to do it,
link |
but I want to be a gazillionaire.
link |
And I don't want any picture, photo ops, this, that.
link |
I just want to go, there's a dog, there's a dog,
link |
there's a dog, there's a dog.
link |
And then I want to build veterans land
link |
for these vets who just need a nice clean place to live.
link |
So why don't we take these old army bases
link |
and Marine bases and Navy bases that have been shut down.
link |
They're just sitting there rotting away.
link |
I was in the army in Alabama.
link |
My old Fort McClellan is three quarters vacant.
link |
It's sitting there.
link |
They just did a documentary on it.
link |
It just looks like zombie land going back to zombies.
link |
So why don't we take that and renovate it
link |
and say to vets who are struggling,
link |
hey guys, you're going to live here.
link |
And they take the old army,
link |
the places where they had all the supplies,
link |
there's massive buildings where you could just retrofit it
link |
and make light manufacturing within two weeks.
link |
Give these guys jobs.
link |
There they live, there they work.
link |
They'll take care of it.
link |
Military guys, they teach you how to take care of stuff.
link |
How the hell in this country should any vet
link |
come back home and be homeless?
link |
Because now they have to dedicate their lives
link |
for six, seven, 10, 12 years,
link |
five, six deployments making $7.50 an hour.
link |
And then they spend seven years
link |
or they get a whopping $16 an hour.
link |
They walk out making 35 grand.
link |
And now no one gives them a job.
link |
No one gives them a chance.
link |
So very quickly they end up homeless
link |
by no fault of their own.
link |
And I don't know how that's even possible.
link |
The people in this country who've given the very most
link |
and they're struggling, they're hurting.
link |
And my whole thing is if I can have this dream
link |
of succeeding, so to speak, I want to try to change it.
link |
So that's why I'm praying to be a billionaire.
link |
My Irish mother probably wouldn't agree either
link |
because you're not supposed to, right?
link |
Well, I'm the same with you.
link |
The more money you have, the more you're able to help.
link |
Yeah, you can put smiles on people's faces.
link |
I have to ask you, the US invaded Afghanistan
link |
in October, 2001 in response to terror attacks.
link |
Now 20 years later, we still had a presence
link |
and abruptly withdrew all troops.
link |
What do you think about this war across the world
link |
that was sparked by this tragedy?
link |
Whenever you do something quickly without thinking it out,
link |
thinking it through and planning, it doesn't succeed.
link |
I understand that we needed to exit.
link |
I mean, how long were you gonna stay over there?
link |
And we've lost over 7,000 of our young souls over there.
link |
For sometimes people, I don't know if they're grateful
link |
for it or not, right?
link |
I mean, I don't know.
link |
So there's the other element, and sorry to interrupt.
link |
One is the financial of $6 trillion
link |
and that money is not just money, it's education,
link |
it's everything, it's money that could have gone towards,
link |
first of all, the first responders,
link |
but all the servicemen and women of all kinds
link |
throughout this country.
link |
And then there's the other side,
link |
which is the over 800,000 people who died
link |
in direct result of this conflict.
link |
So not just the American side of the troops,
link |
but just people who died, those humans.
link |
And those humans, many of them civilians,
link |
that's spreading hate, especially if you have leaders
link |
on the other side who frame the death of those civilians
link |
in certain ways that just spreads hate throughout the world.
link |
And so you think about this kind of 20 year saga
link |
and think, what are the ways that money could be spent better
link |
and what was the way that we could have spread more love
link |
in the world versus hate?
link |
And you wonder, but then the other side, what is it?
link |
I'm not sure who says this line,
link |
but it's something like we sleep at night
link |
because there's a rough men out there
link |
ready to fight for you.
link |
There is some sense in which we have to make sure
link |
that there's strength coupled with the love, right?
link |
Otherwise evil men will do evil onto the world.
link |
So it's a very difficult decision,
link |
but then you look at the final picture
link |
and it's like, what have we gotten for this $6 trillion?
link |
What have we gotten for this 20 years?
link |
The thousands of American soldiers who died,
link |
the hundreds of thousands of civilians who have died.
link |
You know, it's a troubling subject for me.
link |
I'm a patriot, I love this country.
link |
I love it with my soul.
link |
And I was just about to head over to the first Iraqi war
link |
and we went out for desert warfare training
link |
and then it ended.
link |
I was at that time a combat medic assigned
link |
to an armored cav unit.
link |
So basically tanks driving around
link |
an armored personnel carrier and when it gets hit,
link |
then you tend to that guy, try to save his life.
link |
I didn't wanna go.
link |
I may sound like a coward, I did not wanna go to war.
link |
I would have went willingly if I was sent
link |
to defend my country, I took my oath.
link |
I didn't join the military to kill,
link |
but if necessary, I would.
link |
I'll use the analogy of cancer.
link |
If you have a cancer and you're aware of its presence
link |
and you don't annihilate those cells
link |
and take them out quickly, it's gonna spread
link |
and it's gonna kill you.
link |
Those evil bastards that flew those airplanes,
link |
one of those airplanes had a little three year old child
link |
in it from Ireland where my mom's hometown.
link |
A friend of mine who since died of a heart attack
link |
from 9 11 toxins, he found her shoe
link |
with human remains in it.
link |
And he thought someone was messing with us
link |
because we didn't know there was any kids in the building.
link |
He says, boss, there's a baby shoe
link |
and it looks like there's something in it,
link |
but there's no kids in the trade center.
link |
I went, the plane, it's a little girl shoe.
link |
I can never get that shoe out of my mind.
link |
The evil bastards who perpetrated that
link |
needed to have missiles strike and rain down upon them
link |
and annihilate them like a cancer that they are.
link |
What just fascinates me is they'll show videos
link |
of these guys flying around and pick up trucks
link |
with 50 cows on the back.
link |
It's like, well, wait a minute.
link |
If a camera crew can get this footage,
link |
you think all these freaking drones and planes
link |
and radar assisted systems can't just go
link |
whist, whist, whist, goodnight, you're gone.
link |
So kill the cancer, kill the cells, get rid of it,
link |
get rid of it quickly and go into remission.
link |
Like an undeniable show of force that sends a message
link |
that gets rid of most of the obvious centers of terrorism.
link |
And that note, that's though,
link |
because we offline mentioned a discussion with Jaco
link |
and maybe romanticize view and mentioning brothers in arms
link |
by dire straits and saying we're all brothers in arms
link |
even when it's on the opposite side of fighting,
link |
which is more of a vision and growing up in the Soviet Union
link |
you saw about World War II, that it's all just kids
link |
thrown into the kids sent to die in all sides.
link |
But then presenting that to Jaco who was in Iraq,
link |
he did not see as brothers in arms,
link |
which is his basic statement is there's evil people
link |
and some people don't deserve the compassion.
link |
You give them a few chances,
link |
they don't take the chances they have to go
link |
because they're spreading evil onto the world.
link |
And so it's not, we're not, all of us deserve a chance.
link |
Oh no, absolutely, but the difference though,
link |
and believe me, I, Jaco, I am from a way, way minor league
link |
compared to him, right?
link |
I mean, this man was right there in the firing line,
link |
but I can understand his analogy
link |
because when you think about it, right,
link |
those young conscripts back in Germany and Russia
link |
and all the countries where they were being drafted,
link |
even our guys were being drafted and thrown into this.
link |
They were gallantly and bravely defending their country.
link |
Now, I'm sure the young Germans felt,
link |
well, hey, Hitler must be right, right?
link |
And young Russians felt, hey, Stalin must be right.
link |
And the young Americans figured,
link |
hey, President Roosevelt must be right.
link |
So they were romantically in a sense
link |
defending the honor of their country, of their motherland.
link |
The difference between those,
link |
so they did have that commonality.
link |
If you and I were firing across each other
link |
from France to Germany or, you know,
link |
from Germany to Russia or whatever,
link |
we're just these two kids who got thrown into this.
link |
We didn't freaking ask for this, right?
link |
But the difference with Jaco's enemy is
link |
no one was attacking their country over there, right?
link |
No one was taking their country over.
link |
Maybe in their mind, they didn't want people
link |
trying to build their government, this and that.
link |
I don't know, I don't know enough about the history there
link |
to really elaborate.
link |
We didn't attack them.
link |
And if a soldier attacks a soldier,
link |
that's an understood concept amongst warriors.
link |
But when a soldier attacks a civilian,
link |
now you're after a different beast,
link |
and you've written that beast off, if that makes any sense.
link |
Yeah, and the enemy, I mean, as Jaco explains,
link |
the enemy in Iraq and just certain parts of the Middle East
link |
is essentially terrorists who don't value the lives
link |
of the civilians of their own country.
link |
And so it becomes like this weird guerrilla warfare
link |
slash game of violence that ultimately allows them
link |
to gain more power within their country,
link |
but they don't care if they're playing
link |
with civilian lives as pawns.
link |
If you have a child who dies
link |
that's a civilian in their country,
link |
that could be seen as a positive for them
link |
because they can use that to leverage
link |
for more and more power within that country.
link |
So when you're fighting an enemy like that,
link |
that's a vicious, that's an evil enemy.
link |
It's like snakes are beautiful,
link |
but if you go pet a rattler,
link |
you're getting bit and you're getting dead, right?
link |
And that's with terrorists,
link |
you've got to cut the head of the snake off.
link |
And I feel, no, don't commit our guys to be there anymore.
link |
But what we need to do is go with tech warfare.
link |
If we have intel from drones or planes or whatever it is
link |
that so and so and so and so and so and so
link |
are driving down in that pickup or whatever,
link |
take it out and do it again tomorrow
link |
and tomorrow and tomorrow.
link |
And maybe they'll get the message after a while,
link |
oh shit, these guys aren't messing around.
link |
Instead of throwing wave after wave of our brave warriors,
link |
brave SEALs, brave special ops guys,
link |
and God bless them for what they do, I couldn't do it.
link |
I could not have done it.
link |
But they have to be now sitting home going,
link |
My friends, my body, myself,
link |
like they must feel so betrayed
link |
because they passionately went over there
link |
to cure a cancer, the cancer of terrorism.
link |
And now the cancer is back.
link |
And I hate to say it,
link |
but I think the cancer might start running wild.
link |
We need to change our tactics up.
link |
This is just my opinion.
link |
I can't see committing all of our guys
link |
to a continuous eternal war.
link |
But I think what we need to do is hit surgically
link |
and hit hard at that cancer that is over there.
link |
We are never gonna rebuild that region.
link |
It's just, it's thousands of years of traditions
link |
that you're not going to change.
link |
It's just some people are unchangeable
link |
because they don't want to.
link |
And we have so many social problems here in our country,
link |
I think that we need to fix first.
link |
I heard this spoken in the past by many people.
link |
It's like the garden theory.
link |
You have your garden with a fence around it.
link |
You tend to your garden.
link |
There may be weeds on the outside of the fence,
link |
but as long as they're not inside your garden,
link |
your garden will prosper.
link |
And I know some people don't agree to that America first
link |
and the whole take care of our own,
link |
but it's like, how are we gonna take in more people now?
link |
And I have a human feeling for them,
link |
but it's almost like the lifeboat theory.
link |
How many people can we take into the lifeboat
link |
before the lifeboat itself sinks as the ship is going down?
link |
So if we can't take care of our own homeless vets
link |
and our own homeless people,
link |
and it's just gonna become worse.
link |
And it doesn't make any sense.
link |
It's just like, we need to just take a timeout
link |
and I think switch our tactics a little bit.
link |
And invest into helping people here at home.
link |
Absolutely, absolutely.
link |
There's very few as obvious of cases
link |
as the first responders in 9 11.
link |
That one of the things that I really wanna kind of talk about
link |
at least a little bit,
link |
we've already talked about the amazing project
link |
that you're doing the 20 for 20 podcast that you host.
link |
We mentioned one story, Steven Siller,
link |
is there other stories
link |
or maybe you can speak out at a high level,
link |
what are you hoping to tell?
link |
And all these different stories that are weaved
link |
about that connect the tragedies and the triumphs,
link |
the heroism of that day
link |
and the days and the years that followed.
link |
You know, Lex, it seems like the common few themes,
link |
the common threads are being selfless,
link |
helping out others even though they might be a stranger,
link |
in acts of kindness, acts of love,
link |
and it seems to all be weaved together with faith.
link |
They all seem to have some sort of faith.
link |
I mean, we have one gentleman, Mark Hanna,
link |
and he's a Coptic Egyptian priest,
link |
and he's an immigrant to the United States.
link |
He was a port authority building engineer.
link |
And with his crew who subsequently passed away,
link |
the crew did, he was effectively rescuing dozens of people
link |
on the upper floors,
link |
and his boss ordered him to assist an elderly gentleman
link |
who was 89 down 78 flights of stairs to get him out.
link |
And in stopping on the 21st floor,
link |
he figured they would just wait there for medics.
link |
He came across Captain Patty Brown of Ladder Company 3,
link |
who told him, no, sir, you need to evacuate.
link |
And Captain Brown picked his brain a little bit
link |
about the structure because he figured,
link |
found out he was an engineer.
link |
And Captain Patty Brown continued on to effect rescues,
link |
and he and his crew were killed.
link |
But father, he's now,
link |
Mark was able to effectively evacuate this gentleman.
link |
They were the two known last survivors
link |
to come out of the tower.
link |
He now has dedicated his life to becoming a Coptic priest
link |
in St. Mary's Church in East Brunswick, New Jersey.
link |
He did this for a total stranger.
link |
And he said he was inspired by his bosses who died
link |
One of his best friends was an Italian man.
link |
The other man was a retired Navy SEAL, Hispanic man.
link |
And they were part of this melting pot.
link |
And no one looked at each other that day,
link |
what color, what race, what belief are you?
link |
They just said, hey, you're a human in need, let's go.
link |
And we have the story about John Field
link |
on his mission to help the responders.
link |
We have a young lady, Mariah,
link |
whose birth father was on flight 93.
link |
She had not even met him.
link |
And she had this premonition that somebody in her family
link |
was killed that day.
link |
And her adopted mom said, no, everyone's fine.
link |
Three years later, when she was legally able
link |
to find out who her dad was,
link |
she found out that her dad, Tom, was actually on that plane
link |
as part of the Let's Roll team.
link |
And we have a gentleman, Robert Burke,
link |
who's an actor, sweetheart of a man.
link |
He's a gentleman and he's a very, very popular actor
link |
He was on Rescue Me, Blue Bloods, Gossip Girls.
link |
And Bobby, my friend, as I call him,
link |
is a volunteer fireman now.
link |
This man doesn't need to get out of bed
link |
at two oclock in the morning and help people with a stroke
link |
or a burning garage or a burning house,
link |
but he does because he wants to.
link |
Because his best friend was Captain Patty Brown.
link |
And his other best friend was Father Michael Judge,
link |
who was our chaplain, who was killed,
link |
literally blessing the victims at the site,
link |
had just given last rites to the firefighter
link |
I mentioned earlier, Danny, who was killed.
link |
And Father Judge was in the lobby of the building,
link |
giving a blessing, praying to God to please stop this.
link |
And he was struck by debris and he was killed.
link |
And Bobby goes on to elaborate about Father Judge's story.
link |
Father Judge used to walk the streets of New York City,
link |
helping AIDS patients just with whatever they needed.
link |
And he was a Franciscan friar.
link |
They wear sandals and a robe.
link |
They just live very humble lives.
link |
And it's just a common denominator is loving each other
link |
and helping each other,
link |
regardless of you know the person or not.
link |
And really, when you think about it,
link |
that's how America was made.
link |
We fought for independence.
link |
Stranger fought next to stranger and fought tyranny
link |
because they wanted freedom.
link |
They wanted to be able to live, love, pray and prosper.
link |
And they fought and died alongside of strangers.
link |
And it's sort of symbolic of what happened that day.
link |
And then strangers from around this great country
link |
just flocked in by the thousands to help.
link |
They didn't know who was in that pile, but they didn't care.
link |
That was another American.
link |
And what I ultimately am trying to do
link |
involved in this beautiful project
link |
is spread the message of doing the right thing.
link |
Look at these examples.
link |
These brave people who didn't have to,
link |
especially the civilians,
link |
they weren't paid to run back in there
link |
and help person after person.
link |
And they had no obligation.
link |
They could have just said,
link |
hey man, I'm out of here and just bolted.
link |
So we're just trying to say to people,
link |
let's bring back that unity and that feeling of 912.
link |
As strange as 912 of a day it was,
link |
it was so sad because it was the first dawn of the sun
link |
where we realized this wasn't a dream.
link |
This was real and it's not going away.
link |
But the beauty of it was there was thousands of people
link |
lined up along the West Side Highway
link |
with signs and American flags.
link |
And they were from every country
link |
and every race and every creed.
link |
And it didn't matter who they were,
link |
but they all shared one bond, love.
link |
And they were hugging and crying and thanking rescuers.
link |
And it brought the morale so high
link |
for a group of people that was so beaten down the day before.
link |
It just started lifting the morale
link |
and making us realize, you know what?
link |
People really do give a crap.
link |
They really do love each other.
link |
And now I'm gonna be honest with you,
link |
I've been doubting that a little bit lately.
link |
I still have these examples of it.
link |
You know, that lady who helped me last night with the phone
link |
and just, you know, I know there's these shining
link |
little examples, but sometimes I think,
link |
I don't know, are we running out of them?
link |
Well, I gotta give you some advice.
link |
So there's two words that were repeated often
link |
in the days and the years after 911, which is never forget.
link |
So might I remind you to never forget about 912.
link |
I mean, those words, you talked about that, you know,
link |
there's people, what is it, college freshmen, maybe.
link |
They weren't even born.
link |
They weren't even born.
link |
And there's people in the 20s that were too young
link |
to remember or to understand the events of that day.
link |
But I think what that day, as you're describing, means,
link |
it's not about a terrorist attack.
link |
It's about the unity that followed.
link |
It was tremendous, Lex.
link |
I never felt so proud.
link |
I was always proud of this country.
link |
You know, I remember my grandpa Nels used to walk by,
link |
I'd see a flag, I'd hear the Star Spangled Banner
link |
and he'd tear up and I'd say,
link |
Grant, why are you crying?
link |
He said, I'm not crying, it's the tears of joy.
link |
I love this country so much.
link |
And I just remember like feeling that way.
link |
I felt that way 910.
link |
I felt that way on 911, but then on 912,
link |
I was just so proud of just the people,
link |
the way they stepped up.
link |
And I just want to try to see if that can happen again.
link |
And I hope it's not necessary for us to have another tragedy
link |
to bring that about.
link |
Let's do that without the tragedy.
link |
Let's just stop and say, hey, you know what?
link |
Let me listen to what this guy has to say.
link |
And maybe he's, he probably won't convince me,
link |
but maybe I'll go, well, you know,
link |
I never thought of it that way.
link |
Stop the finger pointing, the bickering,
link |
the tantrums, the fighting.
link |
It's just not necessary.
link |
It gets you nowhere, right?
link |
It's like, you know, I was two years old
link |
and I'd stomp around because I wanted a cookie
link |
or a piece of candy.
link |
I still didn't get it, right?
link |
You know, turned blue in the face and whatever,
link |
got a little swat in the rear end,
link |
but it didn't get the candy.
link |
And that's what we got going on right now.
link |
Everybody's just stomping around, being a baby.
link |
We're really lucky.
link |
Look, the country's not perfect, right?
link |
You know, but it's damn good.
link |
It gives us all these opportunities, you know?
link |
Like I said, no one's rushing out the gates
link |
to get out of here.
link |
They're freaking, I got a cousin of mine.
link |
I love him dearly.
link |
My cousin Tony in Ireland.
link |
And he said, he's just a little older than me.
link |
He's in his fifties.
link |
He said, man, I should have done it.
link |
I should have went to America.
link |
My dad said, go to America.
link |
I went to England and he went back to Ireland.
link |
And you know, but he's happy in Ireland.
link |
But he said, wow, what a place of opportunity.
link |
And I said, it's never too late.
link |
He goes, yeah, but you know what?
link |
You get tied down.
link |
And I understand that.
link |
I thank God my mom came here at 16.
link |
I thank God my grandpa got on that ship.
link |
But in his 20s, 27, I think, you know,
link |
with not a nickel to rub together.
link |
I thank God they did it.
link |
Cause I don't know where else I would have ended up.
link |
There's no place else I want to be.
link |
And I thank God that there's people like you
link |
who rushed towards ground zero to help other human beings.
link |
And I believe that that human spirit
link |
is ultimately represents the best of this country
link |
and the best of this world.
link |
Thank you for the stories you're telling,
link |
for your perseverance in that.
link |
And thank you for welcoming me to the crew.
link |
You're very welcome.
link |
And we'll take you any day.
link |
You look like you could do the job just fine.
link |
I love lifting heavy things and doing dangerous things.
link |
So I'm proud to be part of this country
link |
and part of the Tally Ho now.
link |
Well, you are definitely an attribute to America
link |
and we're glad you chose to come here.
link |
You know, Lex, it's such a beautiful place.
link |
It's a beautiful melting pot.
link |
You know, if we were all the same,
link |
it would be kind of a boring place, right?
link |
But it's just such a great place.
link |
And I just want to say thanks.
link |
It's an honor to have someone to let me sound off
link |
and it'll be even bigger honor
link |
if somebody will listen to me and just say,
link |
hey, you know, let me just try to do something good today.
link |
And you know, that's the tunnel to towers mantra
link |
is let us do good.
link |
And I just, you know,
link |
I got a really big credit card with God,
link |
a big balance, right?
link |
I need to pay him back a lot
link |
and I need to pay him forward.
link |
And I'm just going to spend the rest of my days
link |
I don't know where this is going to go,
link |
what it'll lead into,
link |
but I really would like to get those dogs
link |
or those vets and build them that village
link |
and just keep going on from project to project
link |
to just say, when my final day comes
link |
and I'm laying there and I say, you know what?
link |
I really made the most of that second chance
link |
God gave me way back in 2011.
link |
I mean, I hope it's 30, 40 years from now,
link |
but even if it's 30 months from now,
link |
I'm giving it the best shot.
link |
So thank you, sir.
link |
I appreciate it and wishing you blessings
link |
and success in your career.
link |
Keep up the good fight
link |
and you're always welcome back to Texas.
link |
It's great food and a little hot,
link |
a little hot, but I can deal with it.
link |
We don't do so good Irish in the sun, you know?
link |
Well, the barbecue and the people are worth it.
link |
No, they are, they're awesome.
link |
I was down here for some storm relief a few years ago
link |
and I tell you what, I fell in love with it.
link |
The people are great, it's a great state
link |
and yeah, I'll definitely be back again for sure.
link |
Thanks for talking to me, Neil.
link |
Thanks for listening to this conversation
link |
with Niels Jorgensen.
link |
To support this podcast,
link |
please check out our sponsors in the description.
link |
And now let me leave you with some words
link |
from Franklin D. Roosevelt.
link |
Human kindness has never weakened the stamina
link |
or softened the fiber of a free people.
link |
A nation does not have to be cruel, to be tough.
link |
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.