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Travis Stevens: Judo, Olympics, and Mental Toughness | Lex Fridman Podcast #223


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The following is a conversation with Travis Stevens,
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2016 Olympic silver medalist in Judo
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and one of the greatest American Judo ever.
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But his story is inspiring,
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not because of that Olympic medal,
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but because of the decades of injury, hardship,
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incredible battles against the best in the world,
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wrapping up in close heartbreaking losses
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at the 2008 and 2012 games,
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all of which eventually led to that very silver medal
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in 2016.
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As we talk about in the podcast,
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Travis is also someone who's largely responsible
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for me getting into Judo,
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for which I will forever be grateful.
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He also happens to be now my Judo coach and mentor.
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I'll release a video of Travis and I
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doing some Judo in a few days.
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To support this podcast,
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please check out our sponsors in the description.
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As a side note, let me say a few words
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that I've written down about the Olympic games
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and the International Olympics Committee.
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I'm visiting family as the T shirt,
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but I had to pull away to write and to say these words
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because this very video was taken down by YouTube
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as per the request of the IOC.
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You know it's serious when a Russian takes time away
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from family, food and drink.
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I'm heartbroken to see continued incompetence,
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greed and corruption on the part of the IOC
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in failing to do as the Olympic charter states,
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to quote, ensure the fullest coverage
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and the widest possible audience in the world
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for the Olympic games, end quote.
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I want to give you two facts.
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First, they do not make most of the videos of the games
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available for replay anywhere that is accessible,
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searchable and discoverable,
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whether funded by ads or by subscriptions.
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For example, on YouTube or their own service,
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it is not available anywhere.
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Second, in the most absurd violation of the Olympic charter,
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they've uploaded all of the videos of the 2012, 2016
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and the 2020 slash 21 Olympics to YouTube.
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And they set all of these videos to private.
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This results in a situation like my four hour conversation
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that you're watching now with Travis Stevens
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being taken down due to us including a few seconds
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of a small video overlay of Travis's epic match
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against Ole Bischoff in 2012.
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This is done automatically as per the request of the IOC.
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I have the video due to having screen recorded it from 2012.
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Here you have Travis Stevens, an Olympic silver medalist,
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someone who spent his entire life overcoming injuries,
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losses, hard weight cuts, periods of no financial
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or psychological support culminating
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in the biggest heartbreak of his career in this one match.
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And this match is available nowhere online,
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not for free, not for $1 million.
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Our showing short clips of it results in the IOC
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taking it down, not demonetizing it,
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taking it down, blocking it.
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The IOC silences this amazing story of Travis Stevens
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of heartbreak that eventually led to triumph.
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And there are thousands of stories like it,
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stories that are supposed to inspire the world.
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To me and to billions of others,
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the Olympic games give a chance to celebrate
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and to be inspired by the greatest stories
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of human flourishing in the face of hardship
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and incredibly long odds or dominance
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in the pursuit of perfection
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at levels previously thought to be impossible.
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The Olympic games inspire kids like me to dream
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and to work hard to achieve in our own lives
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the same moments of magic and greatness,
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small or big, that the Olympic games reveal.
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I believe the members of the IOC are good people,
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but people who forgot the dream,
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the fire that was sparked and burned in their hearts
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when they first saw the Olympics as kids.
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They've allowed the gradual corruption
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of their own human spirit
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and thereby have robbed the world of this very fire,
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the fire of the Olympic torch,
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the fire that ought to burn in the eyes and hearts of kids
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watching the Olympics today,
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daring to dream, daring to be great.
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Please, please do better.
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The world needs you, the world needs the Olympic games.
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This is the Lux Friedman podcast
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and here's my conversation with Travis Stevens.
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Judo is a martial arts, a sport,
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a set of techniques, ideas, and philosophies.
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Can we start by maybe you giving a big picture overview
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of what is Judo to somebody who's like outside
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the whole spectrum of grappling sports?
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Yeah, Judo was originated in Japan
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that was used as a police tactic for self defense
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and subduing people.
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It's the art of being able to throw somebody to the ground
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and hold and control the situation.
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I think it's pretty much evolved since then though.
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You know, it's as you include like the sport aspect of it,
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it's grown to be something more and more dynamic
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and it's kind of gotten away from that.
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So the basics is people wear something called a gi,
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which I think nicely mimics like outdoor clothing,
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like a jacket and they start on the feet
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and they get to grip each other
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and the scoring works by the more badass the throw is,
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the more points you get,
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and if you throw the person big and hard on their back,
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you win the match and it's over and that's called an Ippon.
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Yeah, which is equivalent to a knockout.
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So I guess there's no knockdowns in Judo.
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We don't count those.
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Yeah.
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They gotta hit their back and they gotta hit it with force.
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And so there's a huge incentive for the big throws.
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Yeah.
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And there's also the drama of somebody catching you off guard
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with a surprise big throw and it's over.
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Yep, there's two ways of losing really.
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There's the, I saw this coming, right?
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Like you just, you see it, but you can't stop it.
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And those ones tend to be the ones you can live with.
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The ones that are like really hard to live with
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are the ones you never saw coming, right?
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Cause that just shows that that person
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has really outclassed you.
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Right, so there's like a set of, a small set of throws.
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Maybe we can go through them that are like,
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you saw it coming, but you couldn't do anything about it.
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And then there's the set of throws
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that are more like surprises.
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So first of all, the counters,
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or if you fake one thing and go the other way,
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then that's a surprise and it's like, oh shit.
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You off balance the person because they think
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you're going one way and then you go the other way.
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And then there's this, oh shit moment.
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All of a sudden your back is just slammed on the ground.
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One of the ones, I mean, you're good at many throws,
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but one of them is a, that I think reveals
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the beauty of judo is the foot sweep.
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There's something about the off balance and the timing
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that if you catch them right, all of a sudden,
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it's like I had the same feeling when I went skydiving,
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like all of a sudden the ground is not under you anymore.
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Yeah, and you just, you go weightlessness
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for like a split second and you realize
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you've lost like all control of your limbs.
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Like it's like zero gravity, right?
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Like you just, you can't turn, you can't rotate,
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you can't do much of anything.
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And then before you know it, you've hit the floor.
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Yeah.
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It's a cool feeling when you get thrown
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because you hope to do the same thing to another person.
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It's like, you just hit the ground hard
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because it's not, you didn't see it coming.
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It wasn't a big throw that got loaded up.
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It's like all of a sudden the surprise.
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And then like this, like feeling your back just slams
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and there's like the air is up.
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Yeah, and the worst is when you get hit twice
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with one throw, right?
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Because sometimes like the guy throwing you
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didn't expect you to leave either.
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So you hit and then that guy comes down
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like a second and a half later and it's like, boom, boom.
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And then the wind is just gone from you.
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Yeah.
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Those are the worst.
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And then there's the disappointment.
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Like then the intellectual, the cognitive part comes in
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where you're like, oh shit, I just lost.
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Yep.
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And you don't have like a connection to why, right?
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It's almost like you've just,
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like you didn't literally get a concussion.
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Like you understand and remember everything,
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but you can't figure out how this just happened, right?
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Those are the tough ones to deal with.
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Actually, have you had moments like that
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where you don't understand how it happened?
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You have to watch footage to understand what happened?
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Even when you watch it, you're just like, I don't get it.
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Like, why wasn't I in a position to stop this?
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It makes zero sense.
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Conceptually, when you watch it, you're like,
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I understand how to play defense.
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I understand, it looks like I'm in a defensive position,
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but at the end of the day, I still got thrown.
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Yeah, you were talking about, what is it, a 2008 match.
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You have a non traditional gripping style.
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Yeah.
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Is that accurate to say?
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And then you were going against another right handed player
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and then there was some kind of fake that he did
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and then he caught you.
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Yep.
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Can you describe the throw he caught you with?
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He caught me with a drop sale,
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but he kind of like, we were engaged.
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We were looking at each other
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and we were kind of at like a stalemate, right?
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He couldn't really advance, I couldn't really advance.
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And he kind of just let his gaze like wander off
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to the right, like he was looking at something.
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And then I kind of like, what's over there?
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And then I got thrown and it's like.
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So first of all, for people who don't know,
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Seio's Seinagi drop means when you drop to your knees
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and Seinagi is one of the fundamental throws of Judo.
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There's just a handful, but does that actually ever work?
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I always wondered that about like boxing or Judo.
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Does the head movement of the person work?
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Cause we're still like kind of dogs at heart.
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If you look somewhere with a dog,
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the dog is going to look that direction as well.
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Does that actually work ever?
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It does, but on a greater sense,
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what you try to do is not necessarily get
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like a physical reaction of a look,
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but a lull of security where like,
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they've almost like relaxed for that split second
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because you've lured them into like a sense of comfort.
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And then that's when you can strike.
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So you have this, speaking of Seinagi,
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you have this gigantic standing Seinagi.
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And you have a specific grip.
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One of our challenges is there's a large number of people
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that listen to the audio version of this.
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So we're gonna have to try to describe some of this stuff.
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I'll do my best to try to describe with words,
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but you have, you grip with your left hand
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on the lapel of the jacket or like that area.
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And there's kind of a lean into the person.
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And I suppose, is there a feeling of a lull there
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that you're trying to get to where you're just,
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it feels like you're both calmly dancing
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before you turn your hips and go in for the throw?
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I'm actually trying to create a sense of weightlessness
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for my lead leg, which would be my right leg.
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And a sense of resistance from my partner.
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So aren't you both kind of leaning into each other?
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And it creates like an A frame.
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But when the A frame is held together at the top half,
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which would be my left hand and their right hand
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posted on each other's chest,
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it means our legs are free to move
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and our hips are free to move.
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And they're not gonna feel your leg move.
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Because of the weightlessness.
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And is there a feeling like, for them,
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is there a feeling like nothing bad can happen here?
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We're all relaxed, everything's fine?
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Yeah.
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And then they're standing off at a funny angle
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and before they know it, I've spun
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and my back is on their chest and they can't go anywhere.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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How did you first develop that throw?
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So for people, it's called Ippon Seinagi,
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which means your right hand goes under their armpit area.
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And that's like a vice that connects you to them.
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And then they go on for the ride.
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The interesting thing with the standing one
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is as opposed to drop Seinagi version,
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the drop Seinagi, you kind of drop under them.
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And because there's a vice,
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they're like pulled under and like over.
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Yeah.
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With the standing one, I suppose there's some similar physics,
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but you're kind of loading them onto your hip.
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And so they're in the air while you're standing still.
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There's a sense in which they're like,
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you're lifting them above where they started.
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Yes.
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That's how you get the really big air.
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Yeah.
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If obviously, if everything is right.
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So how did you first develop that?
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How did you first?
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I first learned just learning like the very basics
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of the throw, you know, foot placement,
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all that kind of stuff.
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And then, you know, like anything, the basics are nice,
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but once you get good at the basics,
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it's very easy to stop,
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but it gives you a good like fundamental platform
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to learn off of and to expand off of.
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And then I expanded when I first started watching Koga,
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the new wind, right?
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Cause he's the one that first like introduced
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that split hip style Seinagi that I do.
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Once I learned that one,
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I built about eight different variations of Seio
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off that one start position.
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That way I could, regardless of your defense,
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I had an answer for a throw.
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So why that one though?
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Why, can you describe love to me, Travis Stevens?
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Why'd you fall in love with that throw in particular?
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It was really a sense of, you know,
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one of my shortcomings as a kid, like,
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I hate leg day in the gym.
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I hate it with a passion.
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I, if you asked me to do a squat, I'll get it done,
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but I will bitch and moan every step of the way.
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I hate it.
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I remember one time I was at the gym with my trainer
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and he goes, okay, we're going to do front squats.
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And I want you to put 225 on the bar.
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And I was like, I can't do that.
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And he was like, what do you mean you can't do that?
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And I go, I physically, I can't do that.
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And he was like, are you serious?
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And I go, yeah.
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So he's, he didn't believe me.
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We put 225 on the bar and I bottomed out.
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And then he was like, okay, let's go down to 185.
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And I was like, I can't do that.
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I just, that's not happening.
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You probably could, strength wise, you just refuse.
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I just mentally, I cannot wrap my head around like,
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this ain't happening.
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I'm not doing it.
link |
00:15:17.820
So I ended up with like 95 pounds on the bar.
link |
00:15:21.780
I got you at a front squat, no problem.
link |
00:15:23.900
By the way, body weight squats are rough too, psychologically.
link |
00:15:27.020
So yeah, I just, when it comes to my legs,
link |
00:15:29.420
like I want no part of like leg pressing,
link |
00:15:33.800
single leg squats, split squat,
link |
00:15:35.500
any of that, I want no part of it.
link |
00:15:36.980
So you think like the more traditional variants
link |
00:15:39.140
of Sanagi require you to have that leg strength,
link |
00:15:42.460
that mass.
link |
00:15:43.420
Like when you watch Japanese Judo players,
link |
00:15:45.120
like their thighs and their hips, they're thick.
link |
00:15:48.140
They got a lot of power there.
link |
00:15:50.060
So you're almost like always dropping a little bit
link |
00:15:52.700
into a squat position.
link |
00:15:54.340
For mine, never.
link |
00:15:55.420
No, no, no, not you, sorry.
link |
00:15:56.740
For the traditional ones.
link |
00:15:58.100
Yeah.
link |
00:15:58.940
And so the split hip,
link |
00:16:00.700
the split hip actually allows me to keep my legs straight.
link |
00:16:03.980
And the farther I split my legs,
link |
00:16:05.460
the lower my center of gravity goes.
link |
00:16:07.300
Now I don't need my legs.
link |
00:16:08.800
Yeah.
link |
00:16:09.640
Perfect.
link |
00:16:10.460
Love it.
link |
00:16:11.300
Let's do it.
link |
00:16:12.120
So that's the way you were thinking about it.
link |
00:16:12.960
Okay.
link |
00:16:14.040
But it's, you know, the interesting thing about it
link |
00:16:16.620
is because, you know, as I mentioned to you,
link |
00:16:19.500
I've gotten to Judo after first watching you
link |
00:16:22.640
in the Olympics and then watching Koga as well.
link |
00:16:26.700
And so you start imitating the people you foresee
link |
00:16:29.660
and then you take it to Judo coaches
link |
00:16:31.660
and they're like, no, no, no, no,
link |
00:16:32.660
that's the wrong way to do it.
link |
00:16:34.680
And happens all the time.
link |
00:16:36.260
It drives me nuts, drives me nuts.
link |
00:16:38.600
I was in Poland one time teaching a camp
link |
00:16:41.900
and I had two coaches anti coaching,
link |
00:16:46.460
telling their kids not to do Seio the way I do it
link |
00:16:49.060
because it never works.
link |
00:16:50.260
Yeah.
link |
00:16:51.100
It's crazy.
link |
00:16:51.980
How do you have the fortitude and the guts
link |
00:16:55.500
to just go on with a throw that's not traditional,
link |
00:16:58.140
a variant that's not traditional?
link |
00:17:01.880
If you think about it, you know,
link |
00:17:04.080
from a very basic like root of it,
link |
00:17:08.540
there's a philosophy and a mentality of Judo
link |
00:17:11.180
of how the throws work, right?
link |
00:17:13.380
There's a mechanical structure there of like,
link |
00:17:16.140
this makes sense.
link |
00:17:18.220
If I follow that principle, I can do anything I want.
link |
00:17:22.100
Nothing else matters.
link |
00:17:23.320
As long as we follow those core principles.
link |
00:17:25.580
So in the early days, even then,
link |
00:17:28.500
you were able to think on your own.
link |
00:17:29.900
Yeah, and I was able to develop a pattern
link |
00:17:33.060
for my foot placement based on my opponent's height.
link |
00:17:36.720
Because the number one thing any Judo coach would tell you
link |
00:17:39.860
is you need your center of gravity below yours.
link |
00:17:42.720
Well, now I know exactly where to put my feet
link |
00:17:45.380
because the shorter you are, the bigger the split
link |
00:17:48.540
because the lower I need to get.
link |
00:17:49.760
The taller you are, the less of a split I need.
link |
00:17:52.580
Is there something you could say
link |
00:17:53.620
about fundamental principles of Judo?
link |
00:17:57.200
Is there, over all that time,
link |
00:18:00.180
not over 20 years that you've been doing Judo,
link |
00:18:04.300
it's not approaching 30, is it?
link |
00:18:06.020
Yeah, it's getting there.
link |
00:18:09.500
Okay, it's getting there.
link |
00:18:10.340
We're a couple years away, but it's getting there.
link |
00:18:13.620
Is there some like principles that have emerged?
link |
00:18:17.100
Like you said, you have to have your center of gravity
link |
00:18:19.900
below theirs.
link |
00:18:21.140
Is there other kind of, both on the gripping side,
link |
00:18:24.060
the footwork side, leverage, anything you can speak to?
link |
00:18:28.140
There's some that have withstood like time,
link |
00:18:31.700
like you have to be able to get below
link |
00:18:35.340
their center of gravity
link |
00:18:36.420
because you have to be able to rotate them
link |
00:18:38.920
around their center of gravity.
link |
00:18:40.680
And then the other one is,
link |
00:18:43.000
that was always a principle when I was growing up
link |
00:18:45.180
and I didn't change until later on in my career was,
link |
00:18:48.180
you have to be able to pull.
link |
00:18:50.020
You need to be able to pull to get them off balance.
link |
00:18:53.820
But when you think about that statement as a whole,
link |
00:18:56.300
it ended with, they have to be off balance.
link |
00:18:59.540
I don't need to pull to get you off balance.
link |
00:19:01.880
I just need you off balance.
link |
00:19:04.020
And when you think about it that way,
link |
00:19:05.540
it allows you to open up the doors to,
link |
00:19:08.520
what do I need to do to get you off balance?
link |
00:19:11.040
I could push, pull, I could flinch, I could fake,
link |
00:19:14.300
and you could put yourself in your own off balance state.
link |
00:19:17.320
When you think about people who wrestle,
link |
00:19:22.160
if I fake shoot, it causes you to over lean forward,
link |
00:19:25.440
which means you're off balance.
link |
00:19:27.280
There's no pull, there's no push, there's no nothing.
link |
00:19:29.360
I just get a reaction that leaves the opportunity
link |
00:19:32.420
in the door open for an attack.
link |
00:19:34.640
And that off balance could be very subtle?
link |
00:19:36.720
Could be very subtle.
link |
00:19:38.220
And the better you get and the more skills you get,
link |
00:19:41.240
the less subtle it is.
link |
00:19:44.840
So we should also mention that there is something called
link |
00:19:46.980
forward throws, where you throw the person,
link |
00:19:52.740
they're gonna fly facing forward,
link |
00:19:54.840
they're gonna fly forward.
link |
00:19:56.800
And then a backward throw, they're gonna fly back.
link |
00:20:00.040
Yep, and then there's lateral,
link |
00:20:02.400
they actually go sideways over, like a cartwheel almost.
link |
00:20:05.640
Okay, so the forward throws,
link |
00:20:07.800
there's the one we've been talking about,
link |
00:20:09.400
which is Seinagi, and there's a bunch of different variants,
link |
00:20:12.240
Ippon, Marote, Seinagi.
link |
00:20:14.240
There's drop and there's standing versions of them.
link |
00:20:16.920
And that all, I don't know if there's a way to summarize it,
link |
00:20:20.560
but that's like as clean as getting your center of gravity
link |
00:20:25.140
under theirs as it gets.
link |
00:20:27.800
And then the rest is just gripping variations.
link |
00:20:30.520
I guess it's all gripping variations
link |
00:20:32.160
on all of these throws, but.
link |
00:20:34.520
And then there is, in terms of forward throws,
link |
00:20:38.960
there's the other big one in competition is Uchimata,
link |
00:20:43.960
which is, I don't know, we can try to explain that one.
link |
00:20:49.120
But it ends up being where one,
link |
00:20:52.880
you're standing on just one of your feet,
link |
00:20:55.240
and the other one is up in the air.
link |
00:20:57.020
And I don't know if you would put in that same category,
link |
00:20:59.360
Harai Goshi, like those kinds of throws
link |
00:21:02.840
where you're kind of a little bit single footed.
link |
00:21:05.920
Yeah, so there's two footed techniques
link |
00:21:07.840
and then there's single footed, yeah.
link |
00:21:09.460
Oh, Goshi, where it's like you're doing a mix
link |
00:21:13.640
between the Uchimata and the Seinagi.
link |
00:21:16.360
Yeah.
link |
00:21:17.200
It's a hug.
link |
00:21:18.080
You hug a person and then you turn your hips around
link |
00:21:21.480
such that you're now hugging facing the same direction.
link |
00:21:24.480
When it comes to forward throw,
link |
00:21:25.840
there's, regardless of the name of the throw
link |
00:21:29.520
or the gripping variation that you're using,
link |
00:21:32.760
the whole principle is how do I get this person
link |
00:21:35.080
to do a forward roll in midair and land on their back?
link |
00:21:40.240
The more of a forward roll I can get, the bigger the score.
link |
00:21:43.520
If I get like a quarter of a turn
link |
00:21:46.120
where like you land on your side
link |
00:21:47.280
and you don't go over your back, it's a half score.
link |
00:21:50.080
Yeah.
link |
00:21:50.920
But they all require me to get you
link |
00:21:53.280
to do that forward rolling action.
link |
00:21:55.160
So just if we think of one person,
link |
00:21:56.760
if they do this nice leap forward and they do a roll
link |
00:22:00.840
and their back nicely rolls over the ground,
link |
00:22:03.080
you're trying to do the exact same thing
link |
00:22:04.600
with you connected to them.
link |
00:22:06.000
Well, and if it's nice and it's smooth,
link |
00:22:08.480
it's probably not a full score.
link |
00:22:10.080
It needs to have like somewhat of a violent impact.
link |
00:22:15.100
Right?
link |
00:22:15.940
So if you think of a drop, say Nagi,
link |
00:22:16.960
if I'm moving too slow and you still roll over your shoulders
link |
00:22:21.680
and there's no direct impact, it's only a half score.
link |
00:22:24.880
Right.
link |
00:22:25.720
They want the force.
link |
00:22:27.120
The force, the violence.
link |
00:22:28.900
Yes.
link |
00:22:29.740
It's good.
link |
00:22:30.560
Okay.
link |
00:22:31.400
So then in terms of backward throws, the traditional ones,
link |
00:22:36.400
there's stuff where you trip them from outside their body,
link |
00:22:41.480
like Osoto gari.
link |
00:22:43.360
It's a trip where you hook your leg onto their leg
link |
00:22:46.800
and you trip them, but your hook goes outside of their legs.
link |
00:22:51.280
And then there's the trips from inside their body.
link |
00:22:54.920
There's a one foot is called kuchi gari
link |
00:22:58.040
and then the other is ochi gari, it doesn't matter.
link |
00:23:00.960
The most important thing is outside and inside.
link |
00:23:03.640
Inside and then there's like,
link |
00:23:07.280
I don't even know how you throw them sideways
link |
00:23:08.920
except foot sweeps.
link |
00:23:09.800
And then there's the foot sweeps
link |
00:23:11.200
where you can sweep one of their legs from out of them
link |
00:23:14.920
or both their legs at the same time.
link |
00:23:17.180
And like we're talking about this kind of is
link |
00:23:20.440
when timed perfectly, it's effortless for everybody involved
link |
00:23:24.720
and the ending, like you said, is big, dramatic and violent.
link |
00:23:30.000
Yeah.
link |
00:23:31.560
Is there other kind of, oh yeah.
link |
00:23:33.360
There's a sacrifice techniques.
link |
00:23:36.480
There's a bunch of them.
link |
00:23:38.040
And that ultimately the variations have to do with gripping,
link |
00:23:41.900
but you're basically you, the attacker fall onto your back,
link |
00:23:46.080
sticking your legs somewhere onto their body,
link |
00:23:49.920
which is like this fulcrum over which they fly
link |
00:23:52.560
and do that same kind of roll that you mentioned.
link |
00:23:54.560
You basically sacrifice your back to the mat
link |
00:23:56.880
in order to throw them into that circular pattern.
link |
00:24:00.040
So they hit their back.
link |
00:24:01.580
Sometimes we use a foot,
link |
00:24:02.720
sometimes we don't.
link |
00:24:04.040
And so we should probably say,
link |
00:24:06.540
it's okay for you to go onto your back
link |
00:24:09.440
as long as you're clearly demonstrating control
link |
00:24:12.240
over the other person's body.
link |
00:24:14.080
Correct.
link |
00:24:14.920
You can't go to your back in the same direction
link |
00:24:18.000
that your opponent is trying to put you to your back.
link |
00:24:22.140
You have to go the other way
link |
00:24:23.500
or you have to initiate you going to your own back.
link |
00:24:27.960
Right.
link |
00:24:29.280
Like clearly.
link |
00:24:30.340
And then there's all the counters
link |
00:24:33.600
which almost kind of have a whole group of their own,
link |
00:24:37.440
even though they have echoes of the same types of techniques,
link |
00:24:41.060
it seems like they're their own whole thing.
link |
00:24:43.220
Yeah, but they follow the same principles.
link |
00:24:45.320
It's just most counters.
link |
00:24:47.680
Like if you wanted to counter Ennuchi Mata, for example,
link |
00:24:51.880
you're trying to throw me in a somersault
link |
00:24:54.520
over my right shoulder.
link |
00:24:56.540
Therefore, I would counter you
link |
00:24:58.380
by throwing you over your left shoulder.
link |
00:25:01.760
It goes in the opposite shoulder direction,
link |
00:25:03.760
but in the same somersault idea.
link |
00:25:06.920
And there used to be, I already at this point,
link |
00:25:09.500
forget the years, but it might be before the 2012 Olympics
link |
00:25:13.560
where they banned, you used to be allowed to grab legs
link |
00:25:17.280
in the same way you do in wrestling.
link |
00:25:19.440
So you have basically all the techniques
link |
00:25:21.400
you would have in wrestling available to you
link |
00:25:24.760
if you would like.
link |
00:25:26.120
Yeah.
link |
00:25:26.960
It's just that some of the techniques in wrestling
link |
00:25:28.920
are not that effective
link |
00:25:30.040
for getting your opponent to their back.
link |
00:25:32.800
Wrestlers wanna take the other person down
link |
00:25:34.720
in any way possible and have control.
link |
00:25:36.880
Judo wants to take you down, like we said,
link |
00:25:38.760
in a big fashion where your back slams on the ground.
link |
00:25:41.400
Yeah, it has to be to the back.
link |
00:25:42.760
A lot of wrestling takedowns happen
link |
00:25:44.800
because they get behind them and then they parterre out.
link |
00:25:49.040
Yeah, so, but Judo banned all touching of the legs,
link |
00:25:54.040
which is a very dramatic change at the sport.
link |
00:25:57.160
But after 2012.
link |
00:25:58.480
After, it was after 2012?
link |
00:25:59.920
It was.
link |
00:26:00.760
In 2012, so 2008, I fought the games
link |
00:26:03.120
and everything was free.
link |
00:26:05.280
In 2012, we could only touch the legs
link |
00:26:07.920
as a defensive action or in response to an attack.
link |
00:26:13.800
So I could try to throw you with a normal throw
link |
00:26:17.680
and then when you try to counter, I could grab your leg.
link |
00:26:20.400
Right.
link |
00:26:21.240
So there had to be a secondary technique.
link |
00:26:24.240
And didn't, like, didn't they disqualify
link |
00:26:27.200
on a first offense?
link |
00:26:29.200
First offense was a direct disqualification,
link |
00:26:31.360
which happened at the 2012 games to the 57 Brazilian
link |
00:26:35.760
who won in 16.
link |
00:26:37.560
She was DQed and I think the quarters.
link |
00:26:40.200
And it was like, I wouldn't say it was blatant
link |
00:26:44.000
as much as I don't think the act changed the outcome
link |
00:26:48.240
of the match had they not disqualified her.
link |
00:26:50.040
So that's not that dramatic.
link |
00:26:51.400
And by the way, you say 57, that refers to weight divisions
link |
00:26:54.920
and that's in kilograms and kilograms is the measure
link |
00:26:58.160
of weight that the rest of the world uses
link |
00:27:00.200
and the United States does not.
link |
00:27:02.400
So, and there's, we should say the divisions for guys,
link |
00:27:08.360
I don't know what the 70, I don't know if the lower level,
link |
00:27:11.120
60.
link |
00:27:11.960
60, 66, 73, 81, 90, 100 and heavyweight,
link |
00:27:17.680
which has no ceiling.
link |
00:27:19.200
No ceiling, as we'll talk about.
link |
00:27:21.120
It's an important distinction.
link |
00:27:22.120
Yeah, it is an important distinction.
link |
00:27:26.760
And you competed most of your career at 81 kilograms.
link |
00:27:30.600
All of it.
link |
00:27:31.960
All, you never did 73.
link |
00:27:33.280
I never did 73.
link |
00:27:34.640
Well, you had to cut big for 81 anyway,
link |
00:27:36.840
especially towards the end of my career, yeah.
link |
00:27:39.720
Okay.
link |
00:27:41.400
I overly grew into the division.
link |
00:27:43.200
What's, I'm trying to remember, is it about 180 pounds?
link |
00:27:47.640
178.6, I think.
link |
00:27:49.720
And you have to weigh in with the gear.
link |
00:27:52.240
No, nothing.
link |
00:27:53.680
You're not allowed to wear anything
link |
00:27:54.880
except for your underwear, weigh in.
link |
00:27:56.680
Confusing digits, that's right, that's right, that's right.
link |
00:27:58.880
That's which is very nice.
link |
00:28:02.160
Okay, so we, would you say we covered
link |
00:28:04.720
most of the throws or no?
link |
00:28:07.720
So there's the forward and the backward,
link |
00:28:10.000
there's the sacrifice throws and the counters.
link |
00:28:12.680
Yep.
link |
00:28:13.520
And then there's the leg grabs.
link |
00:28:15.280
And we should say for the leg grabs that were effective,
link |
00:28:17.880
it's like the big pickups
link |
00:28:20.480
where you just kind of pick them up
link |
00:28:21.880
and try to figure out once they're in the air
link |
00:28:24.120
what the heck to do with their body
link |
00:28:25.520
to get them to the ground.
link |
00:28:26.840
You just kind of figure it out as you go.
link |
00:28:28.720
I think the really nice one
link |
00:28:30.560
that was to me heartbreaking as a fantasy go
link |
00:28:33.800
is I guess what's called a fireman's carry,
link |
00:28:37.120
which is, it does lead to judo like beautiful throws.
link |
00:28:42.120
And the fact that that was gone is,
link |
00:28:45.280
that one I missed a little bit,
link |
00:28:47.440
but then a bunch of people I guess came up with the variance
link |
00:28:50.600
where you don't need to grab the leg.
link |
00:28:52.920
It's definitely not as effective as being able to grab it,
link |
00:28:57.160
but I'm also on the side of the fence
link |
00:28:59.800
having competed in all three.
link |
00:29:02.080
It was definitely better for the sport
link |
00:29:04.280
to remove it as a whole.
link |
00:29:07.240
It's probably good to cover sort of
link |
00:29:08.560
the whole spectrum of rules of judo
link |
00:29:10.960
is there's groundwork.
link |
00:29:12.440
So you do all this stuff on the feet
link |
00:29:15.200
where you're trying to murder each other
link |
00:29:16.680
with a giant throw.
link |
00:29:18.000
But then if the throw doesn't succeed,
link |
00:29:21.120
you go to the ground and you stay in the ground
link |
00:29:23.000
for some amount of time, like short amount of time.
link |
00:29:25.320
You have to move quickly, you have to be attacking.
link |
00:29:27.960
And two of the ways you can win
link |
00:29:30.680
is similar to people who do jiu jitsu
link |
00:29:32.880
is you can submit them, chokes, arm breaks,
link |
00:29:36.720
all that kind of stuff, no footlocks.
link |
00:29:39.320
And you can also pin them,
link |
00:29:43.320
which is get around their legs.
link |
00:29:44.720
And this is very, no, this is not like wrestling.
link |
00:29:47.960
You have to actually get around their legs
link |
00:29:50.320
and pin them in what in jiu jitsu is called
link |
00:29:53.440
side control mount, all kinds of ways
link |
00:29:55.400
that doesn't involve their legs.
link |
00:29:57.480
And then you pin them for like whatever,
link |
00:29:59.000
20 seconds, 25 seconds.
link |
00:30:00.320
Yeah, 20 seconds now.
link |
00:30:01.840
I think the distinction is their back
link |
00:30:04.640
has to be facing the mat.
link |
00:30:06.520
You have to be past their legs
link |
00:30:08.160
and your chest has to be on the same plane as theirs.
link |
00:30:12.000
So it doesn't have to necessarily be on top,
link |
00:30:14.120
but it has to be on the same plane.
link |
00:30:16.560
And all of this is, I think different sports
link |
00:30:20.000
have different versions of this,
link |
00:30:21.240
but it's like an approximation
link |
00:30:23.600
of what dominance looks like.
link |
00:30:25.680
So pin and wrestling is dominating your opponent.
link |
00:30:29.280
Presumably if you were in a street fight,
link |
00:30:31.320
that position allows you to then do a lot of damage.
link |
00:30:34.160
Obviously submissions is dominance
link |
00:30:35.840
cause you're breaking their arm or choking them to unconscious.
link |
00:30:40.480
And then obviously the throw,
link |
00:30:42.520
which is not often talked about,
link |
00:30:44.800
but like if you talk about a street fight situation,
link |
00:30:47.920
a throw is like the best way to murder somebody.
link |
00:30:52.560
Like this could end anyone's life.
link |
00:30:54.360
Yes.
link |
00:30:55.360
It's terrifying actually.
link |
00:30:56.800
So, okay, so these are all elements of dominance.
link |
00:31:00.480
So going back to set of principles,
link |
00:31:03.040
you were mentioning getting your center of mass under theirs,
link |
00:31:06.840
which I think applies for type of like the forward
link |
00:31:10.760
say Nagi throws, is there other stuff?
link |
00:31:14.440
Oh, so you mentioned off balance.
link |
00:31:15.960
Yeah, there's the off balance one
link |
00:31:17.680
where you can either pull to get an off balance
link |
00:31:21.280
or you can give way to the force,
link |
00:31:24.080
which can also lead to an off balance.
link |
00:31:27.600
You can amplify somebody's force to,
link |
00:31:30.560
so for example, if you push me,
link |
00:31:34.480
you expect a certain reaction that you're ready for.
link |
00:31:39.520
But if you push me and I pull you,
link |
00:31:42.200
now you didn't expect that much force coming out of you.
link |
00:31:44.800
Therefore you're off balance.
link |
00:31:47.480
The thing that's distinctly recognizable about Judo
link |
00:31:51.440
is like when done at the highest level,
link |
00:31:54.960
like it seems effortless when the big throw happens.
link |
00:31:59.960
Like that's just, it doesn't,
link |
00:32:01.680
there is no other sport like it in the combat sports
link |
00:32:04.520
where it's like when the timing is right,
link |
00:32:07.720
everything just is perfect.
link |
00:32:09.240
I think you get that out of my mate
link |
00:32:10.880
and boxing sometimes when this is a perfect strike,
link |
00:32:15.920
just like, but it's not just like a hard hit.
link |
00:32:19.760
It's like, it's almost like with Conor McGregor and Aldo,
link |
00:32:23.680
for example, when you just catch him just right.
link |
00:32:25.640
Just right.
link |
00:32:26.480
You didn't look like you hit him that hard,
link |
00:32:28.440
but you hit him just right.
link |
00:32:29.640
And then you get to see this all the time in Judo.
link |
00:32:33.000
It's fascinating.
link |
00:32:34.120
And so the beginning part of that
link |
00:32:36.400
is because there's a jacket,
link |
00:32:38.360
there's also this whole thing that you're a master of,
link |
00:32:40.840
which is like, which is gripping.
link |
00:32:43.480
So is there something you could say about,
link |
00:32:46.200
are there some fundamental principles of gripping
link |
00:32:48.840
that you can speak to?
link |
00:32:50.200
Like what the hell is gripping?
link |
00:32:52.160
Gripping is having the ability to hold your opponent
link |
00:32:56.000
in such a way where you have the ability to be offensive
link |
00:32:59.560
and also the ability to be defensive at the same given time.
link |
00:33:05.200
And it's a distinction because I can hold you
link |
00:33:08.880
in such a way where I might be able to feel offensive,
link |
00:33:13.240
but if you can take a purely defensive grip
link |
00:33:16.000
and then I can't be offensive, we are no longer gripping.
link |
00:33:19.240
We are holding each other.
link |
00:33:21.720
Right.
link |
00:33:22.560
Right.
link |
00:33:23.400
And so like that would be the act of being able to grip
link |
00:33:26.360
is to be in a situation where you have me and I have you,
link |
00:33:30.960
and I can play both offense and defense at the same time
link |
00:33:34.400
where you can only play defense.
link |
00:33:36.960
So Donaher talks about like Jiu Jitsu that way,
link |
00:33:40.200
and not that way,
link |
00:33:41.040
but maybe you can see if there's a distinction.
link |
00:33:43.520
So you have a set of weapons.
link |
00:33:45.400
The other person has a set of weapons.
link |
00:33:47.320
You wanna sort of maximize the use of your weapons
link |
00:33:50.640
and shut down the set of weapons that they have.
link |
00:33:54.720
Do you see gripping the same way on the feet?
link |
00:33:57.680
I do if we wanna include body positioning
link |
00:34:00.760
with our gripping.
link |
00:34:03.280
Because I can give you any grip you want
link |
00:34:05.040
and you still can't throw me.
link |
00:34:06.400
Because I can put myself in a position
link |
00:34:08.720
that nullifies your ability to use those grips
link |
00:34:11.320
in a successful way.
link |
00:34:13.120
And those, would you say the hips are critical to that
link |
00:34:16.160
or is it everything?
link |
00:34:17.080
Hips, shoulders, chin position, head position,
link |
00:34:21.120
the angle of your foot.
link |
00:34:22.760
Yeah, where you lean.
link |
00:34:24.600
Wow, okay.
link |
00:34:25.640
And so, and there's a bunch of places you can grip.
link |
00:34:28.920
Obviously, if people like kind of think of a jacket,
link |
00:34:31.720
like there's a bunch of places you can grip
link |
00:34:33.880
that are interesting.
link |
00:34:35.000
So you can grip on the collar,
link |
00:34:37.240
you can grip on the sleeves,
link |
00:34:38.960
you can grip like the elbow joint.
link |
00:34:41.840
And then you could do those bad ass,
link |
00:34:44.160
like Eastern European, Georgian, over the back.
link |
00:34:48.080
Over the back, over the opposite sides of the heads.
link |
00:34:50.800
The Koreans that grab on one side
link |
00:34:52.440
around the head with their hands together.
link |
00:34:54.880
There's something really nice about just those,
link |
00:34:58.080
I mean, especially George just keeps throwing that hand.
link |
00:35:00.600
Just over the person and just,
link |
00:35:02.920
you're not actually gripping a belt or anything.
link |
00:35:05.600
You're gripping just the entirety of like,
link |
00:35:08.240
as opposed to being all nice
link |
00:35:09.600
and I'm gonna grab this part of the jacket,
link |
00:35:11.160
this part of the jacket.
link |
00:35:12.400
You're just like taking the whole fucking jacket
link |
00:35:15.720
and just launching somebody.
link |
00:35:17.840
For those people that can't picture judo,
link |
00:35:21.160
think about it in like,
link |
00:35:23.000
if you understood like what a boxing match looks like,
link |
00:35:26.240
and you thought about that as like traditional gripping,
link |
00:35:29.040
when you throw like a Russian grip over the back,
link |
00:35:31.880
that's more like a hockey fight.
link |
00:35:33.160
Like I'm just grabbing you and we're just gonna,
link |
00:35:36.240
we're gonna be throwing punches left and right.
link |
00:35:38.000
Cause when we have that grip,
link |
00:35:39.960
somebody has to get thrown.
link |
00:35:41.840
There's no, we don't walk around with this grip.
link |
00:35:44.880
It's go time once somebody throws it.
link |
00:35:47.880
To me, as a fan and sort of amateur practitioner,
link |
00:35:53.120
there's two styles of Olympic level judo.
link |
00:35:55.880
One is where you're trying not to get thrown.
link |
00:35:59.480
And the other is where you're trying to throw.
link |
00:36:04.080
More specifically, when you're trying not to get thrown,
link |
00:36:06.720
there's like the strategy that you're using gripping
link |
00:36:09.160
to nullify their offense and all those kinds of stuff here.
link |
00:36:13.160
You're being very clever and strategic and all that,
link |
00:36:15.720
maybe using conditioning.
link |
00:36:17.360
And then there's people who just like step in the pocket
link |
00:36:21.280
and they almost don't care if they're getting thrown
link |
00:36:23.960
cause they have the confidence
link |
00:36:24.960
that they're gonna throw first.
link |
00:36:27.120
And those, like there's a clear distinction
link |
00:36:29.080
between the people that do one or the other.
link |
00:36:31.280
And I think both can be done extremely successfully
link |
00:36:35.240
at the highest level.
link |
00:36:36.440
It's just like, obviously you admire the people
link |
00:36:38.600
that step in the pocket.
link |
00:36:40.360
And I think when you look at the people
link |
00:36:42.160
who do judo the best,
link |
00:36:45.680
like if we wanna talk about like the top 10%
link |
00:36:49.240
of the people who would compete at the games,
link |
00:36:52.040
they do both.
link |
00:36:53.640
And they do both really well, but they favor one.
link |
00:36:58.360
Because if you look at a player like
link |
00:37:02.600
Lutepe Tilliani of Georgia, for example,
link |
00:37:05.160
there's a guy that stands in the pocket.
link |
00:37:07.520
But we can find numerous occasions
link |
00:37:09.520
where he's hustled some people
link |
00:37:11.760
for like a short period of time
link |
00:37:13.640
to get out of scenarios, to elongate the match,
link |
00:37:17.320
to make somebody tired.
link |
00:37:19.040
So you want both sides of the coin,
link |
00:37:21.320
but you better pick the one that 80% of your strategy
link |
00:37:24.760
is gonna be built around.
link |
00:37:27.120
Sorry for the romantic question,
link |
00:37:28.480
but I talked to Dan Gable
link |
00:37:30.240
and he always looked to the Russians
link |
00:37:33.600
as the artists in wrestling.
link |
00:37:37.280
And he always wanted to be an artist.
link |
00:37:39.480
But I think he's known for being that sort of guts,
link |
00:37:44.160
aggression, mental toughness guy,
link |
00:37:46.080
but he always was drawn to the artistry of wrestling.
link |
00:37:49.080
It's hard to know when you just watch you,
link |
00:37:52.440
because it looks like you're aggressive
link |
00:37:54.040
and you got the guts and the mental toughness,
link |
00:37:56.360
but there's also obviously a mastery of technique.
link |
00:37:58.720
Which would you lean towards in terms of
link |
00:38:01.800
what accounts for your success
link |
00:38:03.680
and just the way you approach judo?
link |
00:38:05.200
Is it the guts, the aggression, the mental toughness,
link |
00:38:09.760
or is it the mastery of technique, the artistry?
link |
00:38:15.000
Mine would be my aggressiveness
link |
00:38:17.600
if I'm gonna pick those two areas.
link |
00:38:23.120
But I think there's a third area in there
link |
00:38:25.080
that I would put myself in where I'm more of a strategist.
link |
00:38:29.160
I look at all of my opponents
link |
00:38:31.360
and all I ever see is their faults.
link |
00:38:34.800
And the way I do judo is built around their faults.
link |
00:38:39.720
And it's just, I put myself in scenarios
link |
00:38:42.920
where I don't even know how I'm gonna win.
link |
00:38:45.920
But what I've done in those scenarios is
link |
00:38:48.760
I've made it very difficult for you to win.
link |
00:38:53.200
And then I figure out the rest as I go.
link |
00:38:56.600
Like how do you study an opponent?
link |
00:38:59.120
Are there bins you can put them in?
link |
00:39:00.880
Like there's a lefty and a righty or this kind of stuff.
link |
00:39:04.600
How many bins are there in judo in your mind
link |
00:39:06.840
that you put your opponents in?
link |
00:39:09.880
Yeah, there's probably about 20.
link |
00:39:12.720
There's like certain players who you could put
link |
00:39:15.440
in a category of like, they're only good
link |
00:39:18.240
for the first two thirds of the match.
link |
00:39:21.720
After that, they turn into a different player
link |
00:39:23.760
where they're either falling into a sense of panic
link |
00:39:27.320
or uncertainty.
link |
00:39:28.680
And you can, if you were to take a video clip
link |
00:39:31.800
of let's say Church's Philly, right?
link |
00:39:33.720
They got Georgia and I beat in the Olympic semi.
link |
00:39:37.400
He's somebody that would beat you
link |
00:39:39.000
in the first three minutes.
link |
00:39:40.800
And if you clipped out all of his matches
link |
00:39:43.360
and you only watched the first three minutes
link |
00:39:46.480
of every match, you would see one style.
link |
00:39:49.360
If you found all the matches where he got taken
link |
00:39:51.880
into the last minute and he wasn't winning by a major score,
link |
00:39:56.880
you would see a completely different fighter.
link |
00:40:00.080
And so going into like my Olympic semi,
link |
00:40:02.320
I put him into that category of like,
link |
00:40:04.800
I wanna get to this guy, cause this guy is beautiful.
link |
00:40:08.800
The trick is, how do you get there?
link |
00:40:10.720
How do you get there?
link |
00:40:11.560
And by the way, we're talking about the 2016 Olympics
link |
00:40:14.520
where you won the silver medal.
link |
00:40:15.800
You were part of three different Olympics.
link |
00:40:18.480
But the cardio aspect of it,
link |
00:40:23.280
have you faced exhaustion often in your matches
link |
00:40:26.660
where you have to go deep and go like past?
link |
00:40:29.080
Yeah, but that's not from the judo side of it.
link |
00:40:32.840
That's from like, I did a very bad job of making weight.
link |
00:40:35.840
It's always the weight cut.
link |
00:40:36.960
Yeah, it's always the weight cut.
link |
00:40:39.400
And I think people really struggle with that.
link |
00:40:43.400
They blame cardio and training and everything else.
link |
00:40:46.240
But when it really comes down to it,
link |
00:40:48.480
like we train for an hour and a half, two hours,
link |
00:40:50.400
twice a day.
link |
00:40:51.880
How are you tired after five minutes?
link |
00:40:54.060
Right.
link |
00:40:54.900
Right, it becomes into a mental struggle,
link |
00:40:56.560
your anxiety, your stress, your lack of belief in yourself.
link |
00:41:01.040
Or in my case, sometimes it's poor nutrition.
link |
00:41:04.640
Sometimes I had one too many McDonald's meals.
link |
00:41:06.660
It just, it happens.
link |
00:41:08.720
Okay, so let's talk about weight cutting real quick.
link |
00:41:11.760
So I've seen weight cutting break
link |
00:41:16.700
some of the toughest fighters, wrestlers, grapplers ever.
link |
00:41:20.360
Like burnout break,
link |
00:41:22.000
like where it makes you wanna quit the sport.
link |
00:41:24.200
So this is what people don't often talk about,
link |
00:41:27.800
but mentally it's one of the hardest things,
link |
00:41:29.960
especially when you're doing it kind of wrong.
link |
00:41:32.800
Because it becomes a mental war.
link |
00:41:35.960
So you competed, like you said,
link |
00:41:37.440
your whole career at 81 kilograms.
link |
00:41:40.200
You walked around at?
link |
00:41:42.600
88, 89.
link |
00:41:44.180
So about 15 pounds, sometimes 20 pounds over that.
link |
00:41:49.880
Give or take.
link |
00:41:51.440
And so what was your process like mentally and physically?
link |
00:41:56.720
First of all, maybe you can comment on
link |
00:41:58.160
when the weigh ins are relative to the matches.
link |
00:42:00.880
And then what was your process like leading
link |
00:42:02.680
like a week ahead, a day ahead,
link |
00:42:05.560
an hour ahead, minutes ahead of the weigh in?
link |
00:42:09.560
Man, everyone varies tremendously
link |
00:42:13.500
because we're not like most sports
link |
00:42:16.240
because you're dropped off in foreign countries
link |
00:42:18.520
with who knows what, right?
link |
00:42:20.720
Some places have saunas, some places have treadmills.
link |
00:42:24.600
I went to a place one time in China
link |
00:42:27.040
in the middle of winter where the roads were frozen with ice
link |
00:42:31.220
and we had to use our hotel rooms
link |
00:42:32.960
because you couldn't sweat outside
link |
00:42:35.880
because it was too cold.
link |
00:42:38.440
And every one of my Olympics,
link |
00:42:39.920
the weight cut was different just given my mass.
link |
00:42:42.840
When I went to 2008,
link |
00:42:45.320
I was probably like 82, 83 kilos walking around.
link |
00:42:48.920
So weight cutting wasn't a thing for me.
link |
00:42:51.960
In London, we actually weighed in the morning of.
link |
00:42:56.080
So weigh ins were at like 6 a.m.
link |
00:42:59.080
And the Olympics were always beneficial to me
link |
00:43:00.920
because they actually don't start until like 10 or 11.
link |
00:43:05.180
So you actually were able to recover.
link |
00:43:07.160
Where on the circuit you would weigh in at 6 a.m.
link |
00:43:10.020
and the competition started at 8 a.m.
link |
00:43:12.440
It's like, well, I was cutting weight at 5 a.m.
link |
00:43:15.120
And most of it for people who are not familiar,
link |
00:43:17.440
but maybe you can also correct me,
link |
00:43:19.280
most of it, you're really just getting the water
link |
00:43:21.820
out of your system.
link |
00:43:22.660
It was water cut.
link |
00:43:23.480
At that point, yeah.
link |
00:43:25.160
Like 24 hours before even, like.
link |
00:43:27.640
So are you?
link |
00:43:28.480
Like an hour before.
link |
00:43:29.800
But yeah, but like leading up to it.
link |
00:43:33.100
And have you eaten the day before?
link |
00:43:36.080
Do you try to minimize the amount of food in your system?
link |
00:43:38.520
My weight cutting process was a little bit different
link |
00:43:41.240
than most people because I like to eat.
link |
00:43:47.680
I'm not the type of person that believes
link |
00:43:50.960
your athletic career is determined by your nutrition.
link |
00:43:55.360
Right.
link |
00:43:56.200
I don't believe that.
link |
00:43:57.480
I think some sports are built that way.
link |
00:43:59.840
But when it comes to combat sports,
link |
00:44:01.740
like, you know, your ability to knock somebody out
link |
00:44:06.080
has nothing to do with whether you had a cheeseburger
link |
00:44:08.440
or a salad.
link |
00:44:09.920
My ability to throw you is not determined by that.
link |
00:44:12.200
I may be able to perform better
link |
00:44:13.760
because I've eaten a certain way,
link |
00:44:16.340
but not enough to justify an entire diet change.
link |
00:44:19.980
Your body is built and my body is built
link |
00:44:22.560
to operate with certain things
link |
00:44:24.040
that I've had in my system for years.
link |
00:44:26.580
Yeah, I think I'm with you,
link |
00:44:28.720
but I also believe that there's a mental aspect.
link |
00:44:32.120
So if you're surrounded by people
link |
00:44:33.500
that tell you diet matters,
link |
00:44:35.400
then if your diet is off,
link |
00:44:37.180
you're gonna believe you're going to be off
link |
00:44:38.840
because the people around you tell you
link |
00:44:40.240
your diet should be good.
link |
00:44:41.640
So yeah, I think it's like,
link |
00:44:44.400
it's the same, I've had an argument with Matthew Walker,
link |
00:44:47.080
who's a sleep scientist about sleep.
link |
00:44:51.000
And it's like, if you believe sleep is essential,
link |
00:44:53.720
it's essential to get eight hours of sleep
link |
00:44:55.560
every single night perfectly,
link |
00:44:57.400
then you're going to be very stressed when you don't get it.
link |
00:45:00.280
And then I think it will negatively affect,
link |
00:45:02.520
the stress will negatively affect your longevity
link |
00:45:04.480
and all kinds of aspects of your life.
link |
00:45:06.480
If you actually just learn to truly listen to your body,
link |
00:45:09.360
become a scientist of your own body with sleep and food,
link |
00:45:12.100
it might end up that it will be the eight hours a night
link |
00:45:15.120
or whatever, but it might be something else
link |
00:45:17.240
and probably diet error.
link |
00:45:18.800
I remember when I was meeting
link |
00:45:19.920
with the USOC nutritionist after London,
link |
00:45:23.640
it was probably around 2014, I think.
link |
00:45:28.760
And when we had our team meeting
link |
00:45:31.160
at the beginning of the year and I was talking to him,
link |
00:45:33.640
he was talking about the nutrition plans
link |
00:45:35.760
that he could put us on.
link |
00:45:37.120
And I was like, time out.
link |
00:45:38.520
I've done the USOC thing, like I've done the couscous,
link |
00:45:41.380
I've done the lemon in my water.
link |
00:45:43.400
I go, I'm full of shit.
link |
00:45:45.480
The couscous?
link |
00:45:46.520
The couscous? Yeah.
link |
00:45:47.880
Oh boy.
link |
00:45:48.720
Like there was just,
link |
00:45:49.540
cause there's like a cookie cutter plan, right?
link |
00:45:51.560
And I was like, look, here's what I want you to do.
link |
00:45:54.240
I go, I'll listen to you,
link |
00:45:56.320
but you're going to walk into the 711
link |
00:45:57.920
across the street from the USOC.
link |
00:45:59.940
And if you can't buy it in that 711, it's not on my plan.
link |
00:46:03.580
Right.
link |
00:46:04.480
I go, because I go to places where
link |
00:46:07.080
the only thing I can eat is Pringles and a Snickers bar.
link |
00:46:10.520
I've done that.
link |
00:46:11.360
Like I've flown to Azerbaijan,
link |
00:46:13.360
stayed in a hotel where the restaurant is closed.
link |
00:46:16.320
USA Judo hasn't paid for the meal plan.
link |
00:46:18.880
And the only thing that's available
link |
00:46:20.500
is the thing across the street.
link |
00:46:22.040
So you were eating Pringles.
link |
00:46:24.440
Before fighting a Grand Slam event,
link |
00:46:25.840
while cutting 20 pounds.
link |
00:46:27.200
And a Snickers bar.
link |
00:46:28.400
Yeah.
link |
00:46:29.780
I just, the visual of that, that's some like,
link |
00:46:31.840
that's some Rocky shit.
link |
00:46:33.000
Okay.
link |
00:46:33.840
Give me a nutrition plan.
link |
00:46:34.760
Go for it.
link |
00:46:35.600
Cause I'm not paying my own way
link |
00:46:37.400
to travel with 14 days of food.
link |
00:46:41.420
Right.
link |
00:46:42.320
I mean, that's, that's one of the magic of your whole career
link |
00:46:45.440
and also Judo.
link |
00:46:46.960
I mean, I'm sorry to say, of course,
link |
00:46:48.980
you want athletes to be super rich
link |
00:46:51.240
and super well funded from an athlete perspective
link |
00:46:53.840
and the sport to be popular and managed
link |
00:46:56.680
in an ultra competent way.
link |
00:46:57.800
But as a fan.
link |
00:46:58.920
That's not reality.
link |
00:46:59.880
But as a fan, it's fun to watch somebody like you
link |
00:47:02.760
who's exceptionally driven,
link |
00:47:04.020
has to suffer in all these different interesting ways.
link |
00:47:07.320
But it's only suffering if you expect the other side.
link |
00:47:12.320
Right.
link |
00:47:13.160
I don't expect it.
link |
00:47:14.320
I accept it for what it is,
link |
00:47:16.120
which is why I write off nutrition for athletes.
link |
00:47:18.680
Right.
link |
00:47:19.520
Cause it can be done without it.
link |
00:47:20.520
As long as, you know, to what you said before,
link |
00:47:22.800
like you don't believe you need it.
link |
00:47:25.600
Some people believe they need it.
link |
00:47:28.480
The mind, getting your mind right
link |
00:47:30.180
is the most important thing.
link |
00:47:31.280
You know what I believe I need?
link |
00:47:32.480
What's that?
link |
00:47:33.320
A Snickers bar when I'm tired.
link |
00:47:35.040
I want a little bit of sugar.
link |
00:47:36.080
It makes me feel better.
link |
00:47:38.740
What do you want me to do?
link |
00:47:39.580
So you,
link |
00:47:42.080
what are you going to do?
link |
00:47:43.680
Yeah.
link |
00:47:45.040
I just love the visual of you eating a Snickers bar
link |
00:47:47.720
before a grand slam.
link |
00:47:48.920
But that became part of my nutrition plan.
link |
00:47:51.260
When the USOC guy wrote my nutrition plan,
link |
00:47:54.120
I was eating a burrito bowl with brown rice,
link |
00:47:58.240
white meat chicken, black beans, guacamole, cheese,
link |
00:48:02.280
two chocolate chip cookies and a Diet Coke.
link |
00:48:05.040
This is like Chipotle or?
link |
00:48:07.320
It was Beloco, but same concept.
link |
00:48:08.960
Same concept with two chocolate chip cookies.
link |
00:48:12.140
Cause I needed the sugar.
link |
00:48:13.360
I was,
link |
00:48:15.300
I was 88 kilos when I stepped on the scale
link |
00:48:19.720
at 6.3% body fat.
link |
00:48:22.920
Now I got to make 81.
link |
00:48:25.240
Six, what?
link |
00:48:26.600
Really?
link |
00:48:27.440
Yeah.
link |
00:48:28.640
And the USOC was like,
link |
00:48:30.120
Hey, you know, you can't, you can't fight 81 anymore.
link |
00:48:34.360
You have to fight nineties.
link |
00:48:35.520
And I go, I'm already into the quad.
link |
00:48:38.800
I'm not changing.
link |
00:48:39.960
I go, build me a plan where I can do this.
link |
00:48:42.920
And now we have to have an acceptable weight cut.
link |
00:48:45.480
Like it just, what do you want me to do?
link |
00:48:47.480
I'm not the IJF.
link |
00:48:48.480
I can't just change the fact that it takes two years
link |
00:48:51.000
to qualify.
link |
00:48:52.580
I know where I'm at.
link |
00:48:53.600
I know what I have to go through
link |
00:48:54.960
and I accept the consequences.
link |
00:48:57.040
It is what it is.
link |
00:48:57.860
What do you want me to do?
link |
00:48:59.180
All right, so what was the process?
link |
00:49:00.880
I mean, can you, can you speak to,
link |
00:49:02.760
so you, you wake up early in the morning,
link |
00:49:05.120
the day of the weigh ins, a few hours before.
link |
00:49:08.540
Technically my weight cut never started
link |
00:49:11.200
until I got off a plane and to a hotel.
link |
00:49:15.320
And how many hours?
link |
00:49:17.080
Three days.
link |
00:49:19.180
So it's a three day cut.
link |
00:49:20.680
It's a three day cut.
link |
00:49:21.520
Mentally you're thinking of it that way.
link |
00:49:23.120
Yep.
link |
00:49:23.960
And then you're still eating.
link |
00:49:24.980
I eat every day.
link |
00:49:26.080
And then like, what do you load up on water?
link |
00:49:28.480
Maybe as you start and then the water stops.
link |
00:49:32.320
It is what it is.
link |
00:49:35.320
So you, I mean, it's a slow,
link |
00:49:38.440
you're not actually like sweating all three days.
link |
00:49:41.600
Yeah.
link |
00:49:42.960
But then it's like torture to sleep.
link |
00:49:46.560
Part of the process.
link |
00:49:49.100
Are you able to sleep?
link |
00:49:50.360
Sometimes.
link |
00:49:52.320
It depends.
link |
00:49:54.280
So you're dehydrated, further and further dehydrated
link |
00:49:57.140
with six, 7% body fat, trying to lose 10 pounds.
link |
00:50:01.040
I even developed a way to drink water out of a bottle
link |
00:50:03.920
where I don't drink anything,
link |
00:50:04.880
but I feel like I have swishing it.
link |
00:50:08.040
What's the, no.
link |
00:50:08.880
So like, I take like a bottle of water
link |
00:50:10.640
and like, if we were to like, to draw a line on it,
link |
00:50:13.520
I would tip it and I would go like this.
link |
00:50:15.120
I would go.
link |
00:50:23.440
And you would draw that line,
link |
00:50:24.480
but like I've drank now water for 20 seconds or whatever
link |
00:50:27.280
it is.
link |
00:50:29.160
And I feel, I get the fix.
link |
00:50:32.000
Brain told me I got there.
link |
00:50:34.360
No problem.
link |
00:50:35.820
That's amazing, man.
link |
00:50:36.920
You just, your mind's a very powerful tool.
link |
00:50:39.980
And the problem a lot of people have is
link |
00:50:45.960
they don't accept the reality of the situation.
link |
00:50:49.200
They bitch about the reality of the situation.
link |
00:50:51.600
I just.
link |
00:50:52.440
First of all, you could always quit, right?
link |
00:50:56.880
Yep.
link |
00:50:57.720
So like, you're not.
link |
00:50:59.000
Never missed weight.
link |
00:51:00.240
Never.
link |
00:51:01.080
Never missed weight.
link |
00:51:01.920
You can perform poorly.
link |
00:51:04.120
You can't miss weight.
link |
00:51:04.960
Don't miss weight.
link |
00:51:05.800
Don't miss weight.
link |
00:51:07.000
Because you can always win
link |
00:51:10.160
regardless of how bad the weight cut is.
link |
00:51:12.600
You can never win if you miss weight.
link |
00:51:15.800
But your brain is also really good.
link |
00:51:19.200
Maybe not your brain,
link |
00:51:20.620
but I know my brain,
link |
00:51:23.480
I think most people's brains are good at generating,
link |
00:51:26.080
the more desperate things become,
link |
00:51:27.680
the better at generating excuses.
link |
00:51:30.560
So what were you doing with your mind
link |
00:51:33.760
that resulted in you never missing weight?
link |
00:51:37.560
The plan.
link |
00:51:39.040
So like I said, like my weight cut would never start
link |
00:51:43.540
until I got to the hotel
link |
00:51:45.480
because I didn't check my weight the morning of,
link |
00:51:48.680
I didn't check my weight when I got there.
link |
00:51:50.760
I just, while I'm traveling,
link |
00:51:52.840
I'm doing things at like a minimal level,
link |
00:51:55.880
but I'm never not giving myself something I'm craving.
link |
00:52:01.880
If I'm thirsty, I'm drinking a Diet Coke.
link |
00:52:04.760
If I'm hungry, I'm buying a Snickers bar.
link |
00:52:07.760
I'm buying a sandwich.
link |
00:52:09.960
I am.
link |
00:52:11.680
And I accept the consequences when I get there.
link |
00:52:14.160
And then when I get there,
link |
00:52:16.040
if I step on the scale and it says 88 kilos,
link |
00:52:19.000
I instantaneously know exactly
link |
00:52:21.200
what it's gonna take to be 81.
link |
00:52:22.920
And then you just follow like a robot,
link |
00:52:24.800
follow a very specific process.
link |
00:52:26.360
Yep.
link |
00:52:27.960
And then, I mean,
link |
00:52:28.880
cause there's a lot of seconds in three days,
link |
00:52:31.720
seconds and minutes and you just.
link |
00:52:33.720
I just know exactly what it takes from my body.
link |
00:52:36.480
I know exactly what a one hour gym workout
link |
00:52:39.720
wearing a sauna suit is gonna take.
link |
00:52:43.040
I know exactly what I'm gonna lose on day one.
link |
00:52:45.520
And I know exactly what I'm gonna lose on day three,
link |
00:52:47.960
because they're not the same.
link |
00:52:49.480
So I can instantly look at a hotel,
link |
00:52:52.240
decide is there a bathroom, sauna, gym,
link |
00:52:55.700
temperature of the gym, access to the gym and when it is,
link |
00:52:59.840
access to the judo mats, my training partners,
link |
00:53:03.020
the roads versus streetlights, the weather outside.
link |
00:53:06.360
I can take a look at that environment and say,
link |
00:53:08.460
this is my weight, this is weigh ins.
link |
00:53:11.040
And instantaneously in my head,
link |
00:53:12.720
there's a plan to make weight.
link |
00:53:14.220
And you have a sense of how much sweat adds up to 10 pounds.
link |
00:53:18.840
How much sweat plus time.
link |
00:53:20.560
Yeah.
link |
00:53:21.400
And I make sure in my plan,
link |
00:53:24.040
all of my meals and how much water I need in between
link |
00:53:27.360
is allocated to still make weight.
link |
00:53:29.160
Cause you have to eat or drink during that time.
link |
00:53:31.880
Are you incorporating like mental exhaustion into this?
link |
00:53:36.680
That doesn't exist.
link |
00:53:38.140
So it doesn't?
link |
00:53:38.980
No, it doesn't.
link |
00:53:39.800
Do you like meditate or something?
link |
00:53:41.120
What did the thoughts come, especially three days.
link |
00:53:43.560
We're not talking about four hours of suffering.
link |
00:53:45.840
I'll tell you.
link |
00:53:46.680
This has broken some of the toughest people in the world.
link |
00:53:48.960
The hardest weight cut I ever had.
link |
00:53:51.520
Hardest one.
link |
00:53:53.680
I fought Pan Am games in 2015 in Edmonton, Canada
link |
00:53:58.840
on a Wednesday and I won.
link |
00:54:03.020
So I've made weight on Tuesday.
link |
00:54:06.600
I fought on Wednesday where I had to weigh in
link |
00:54:08.700
5% of my weight class, so 84 kilos.
link |
00:54:12.000
On Wednesday I was 84 kilos.
link |
00:54:14.000
I got on a plane on that Wednesday night
link |
00:54:19.400
and landed Friday morning in Sochi.
link |
00:54:24.360
Okay, so I've traveled now.
link |
00:54:27.680
I got on the scale, all my bags got lost, everything.
link |
00:54:32.280
So somehow I flew from there to here, no bags.
link |
00:54:36.880
And I threw all of my stuff in my bag.
link |
00:54:40.640
I wore sandals, one pair of pants and a T shirt
link |
00:54:44.760
on the plane because I was like, I'm just tired.
link |
00:54:47.240
I just fought.
link |
00:54:48.080
I don't even want to carry it.
link |
00:54:49.480
I don't care.
link |
00:54:50.440
What are the odds that I get there and my bags are gone?
link |
00:54:52.880
Yeah, very low.
link |
00:54:54.360
Very low.
link |
00:54:55.920
Sure enough, it's gone.
link |
00:54:57.680
I get all the way to Sochi.
link |
00:54:58.960
I check into the hotel.
link |
00:55:00.560
There's one sauna.
link |
00:55:02.800
Guess what?
link |
00:55:03.640
You have to reserve it and you're only allowed
link |
00:55:06.480
to reserve it for an X period of time.
link |
00:55:08.520
Guess in a small tangent, when you phoned out,
link |
00:55:11.200
your bags are gone.
link |
00:55:13.040
This is something I'll often think about.
link |
00:55:15.200
There's like people that are helping you, right?
link |
00:55:17.120
Like there's a person at the airport who goes.
link |
00:55:20.320
Yep, oops.
link |
00:55:21.160
Just like that.
link |
00:55:21.980
And then the person at the hotel who tells you
link |
00:55:24.120
that you have to reserve the sauna and looks at you like
link |
00:55:27.280
you're, they don't care that you've been suffering.
link |
00:55:30.800
They don't even understand why you need it.
link |
00:55:33.720
Yeah, like why?
link |
00:55:34.840
Oh, you know, oh, this, like this little kid reserved it
link |
00:55:38.840
for five hours or something to block it off.
link |
00:55:41.520
I'm sorry.
link |
00:55:43.280
Is there a frustration that gets in there?
link |
00:55:45.080
Are you?
link |
00:55:45.920
You just accept reality.
link |
00:55:46.880
Don't even hinder on like the things you can't change.
link |
00:55:50.600
Because the second you get frustrated,
link |
00:55:52.280
the second you think you can change it,
link |
00:55:55.760
you'll harp on it.
link |
00:55:56.700
And that breaks most men.
link |
00:55:58.240
Yeah.
link |
00:55:59.140
That like little thing in the back of their mind thinking,
link |
00:56:02.460
oh, like what if?
link |
00:56:03.880
There's no what if.
link |
00:56:04.700
There's only right here right now.
link |
00:56:06.800
If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
link |
00:56:07.880
Let's just quickly come up with a solution
link |
00:56:10.080
to fix the problem.
link |
00:56:11.000
By the way, as another small tangent,
link |
00:56:13.360
all the greatest people I've interacted with
link |
00:56:16.280
at the highest level think like that.
link |
00:56:19.260
They don't linger on the, it's like the next thing.
link |
00:56:22.440
Yeah.
link |
00:56:23.280
Because like, if you want to do something great,
link |
00:56:25.360
hard stuff is going to keep happening to you.
link |
00:56:28.240
And if you're going to let that affect you,
link |
00:56:30.420
you're not ever going to do the great thing.
link |
00:56:32.400
It's fascinating actually.
link |
00:56:33.640
Like that's the one skill you have to learn.
link |
00:56:36.480
Elon Musk is great at this.
link |
00:56:38.000
Constantly dealing with emergencies.
link |
00:56:39.780
Okay.
link |
00:56:40.620
Okay, this happened.
link |
00:56:41.440
What's the next step?
link |
00:56:42.280
Yep.
link |
00:56:43.200
Accept.
link |
00:56:44.040
It's not that big of a deal.
link |
00:56:44.860
Every problem has a solution.
link |
00:56:46.040
Yeah.
link |
00:56:47.000
Yeah.
link |
00:56:47.840
And if I can't solve it, it's not my problem.
link |
00:56:50.680
You know what I mean?
link |
00:56:51.520
Yeah, exactly.
link |
00:56:52.340
So what, so how'd you figure it out?
link |
00:56:54.320
In sandals?
link |
00:56:55.160
Get this, I get to the hotel.
link |
00:56:57.320
Yeah.
link |
00:56:58.160
I check in.
link |
00:56:58.980
I don't even know about the sauna yet.
link |
00:57:00.700
I go, I need to find a clothing store.
link |
00:57:03.240
I'm in the middle of Russia.
link |
00:57:05.280
I open up Google Maps and I'm like, sports store.
link |
00:57:09.120
I find an Adidas sports store
link |
00:57:11.440
in the middle of Sochi, Russia, right?
link |
00:57:14.360
I spend like $500 on like average sweats.
link |
00:57:18.180
No plastics, no nothing, and no running shoes
link |
00:57:21.960
cause they don't have any.
link |
00:57:22.880
What's the temperature outside?
link |
00:57:24.400
Is it cold?
link |
00:57:25.320
It was kind of like springish.
link |
00:57:27.000
So it wasn't cold, but it wasn't hot.
link |
00:57:29.200
Yeah.
link |
00:57:30.040
So you still need a lot of layers preferably.
link |
00:57:32.640
You would need a lot of layers just to cut
link |
00:57:34.600
the amount of weight I'm about to tell you I have to cut
link |
00:57:36.760
because after I bought that stuff that next morning,
link |
00:57:40.120
and mind you, it's a Friday, it's a Friday morning.
link |
00:57:42.800
I go to the venue where we have the mats open to train
link |
00:57:47.520
and I step on the scale.
link |
00:57:49.440
And then Sagan Batar of Mongolia goes,
link |
00:57:52.480
oh, pretty good, you're almost there.
link |
00:57:54.940
And I go, no, I'm not.
link |
00:57:59.180
I stepped on the scale at almost 94 kilos.
link |
00:58:01.540
And I looked at him and I was like, I'm 81.
link |
00:58:05.740
And he went, good luck.
link |
00:58:09.540
You're almost there.
link |
00:58:11.780
Yeah.
link |
00:58:13.880
For the next weight class above.
link |
00:58:16.580
Is this on a Saturday or Sunday?
link |
00:58:18.540
Friday morning.
link |
00:58:19.380
No, no, no, sorry.
link |
00:58:20.220
Friday morning, the competition is when?
link |
00:58:22.720
Sunday.
link |
00:58:23.560
Sunday.
link |
00:58:24.380
I weigh in Sunday.
link |
00:58:25.700
Okay.
link |
00:58:27.420
I'm like, holy crap.
link |
00:58:28.980
I throw on all my layers and there's one other person
link |
00:58:32.700
with me there, Kalita, who was my girlfriend at the time,
link |
00:58:35.100
now my wife, we start doing judo.
link |
00:58:38.020
Cause I'm like, this will be the easiest way to knock off
link |
00:58:40.780
like three or four kilos.
link |
00:58:42.940
Well, it's cold.
link |
00:58:44.180
I have no gi and I'm working out with a female.
link |
00:58:48.660
I can't get overly physical to really get my muscles
link |
00:58:52.760
going to really break that sweat
link |
00:58:54.260
because she has to compete in a day or two.
link |
00:58:56.660
She's not a training partner.
link |
00:58:58.180
You can't just use this person.
link |
00:59:00.900
I stepped on the scale.
link |
00:59:02.140
I was 91 kilos.
link |
00:59:04.280
So I went, well, I was a nice den, but like,
link |
00:59:06.780
yeah, I go, that's not going to fly.
link |
00:59:09.640
So sure enough, the clothes are now ruined.
link |
00:59:13.020
They didn't help me lose any extra weight.
link |
00:59:15.980
So I go back to the hotel and I start reserving the sauna.
link |
00:59:19.740
Do you know how hard it is to lose that much weight
link |
00:59:21.540
in a sauna by yourself?
link |
00:59:24.140
So it's harder on many levels,
link |
00:59:25.720
but one of them is just mental.
link |
00:59:27.260
Yeah.
link |
00:59:28.340
You're sitting in heat.
link |
00:59:29.900
Heat, and you're not doing anything.
link |
00:59:32.340
Like if there had been a bike or like the sauna
link |
00:59:34.860
was big enough to use a jump rope
link |
00:59:36.560
or you could do some sort of activity,
link |
00:59:39.860
but you just sit and you stew and you're there mentally.
link |
00:59:44.340
At one point during the weight cut,
link |
00:59:46.860
I actually had my mouth on the bottom part of the door
link |
00:59:49.900
where there was a little gap and my legs up on the benches
link |
00:59:53.900
and Kalita holding the door so that it didn't open
link |
00:59:56.900
so I couldn't open it so that I could lean against
link |
00:59:59.260
that thing and have fresh air.
link |
01:00:01.340
Cause I was like, I was struggling.
link |
01:00:04.880
And we're talking about, I mean, how many hours is that?
link |
01:00:07.580
Hours.
link |
01:00:08.420
And then the thing is,
link |
01:00:09.260
is because you have to reserve the sauna.
link |
01:00:11.360
I can't even take like a 30 minute break
link |
01:00:13.320
because the sauna is not going to be mine in an hour,
link |
01:00:16.140
which means you have to use the sauna and the heat
link |
01:00:19.180
for that allotted time period.
link |
01:00:21.180
And I hate saunas.
link |
01:00:23.260
That is always my last resort.
link |
01:00:25.540
I would use a bath.
link |
01:00:26.620
I will train.
link |
01:00:27.500
I will run.
link |
01:00:28.340
I will jump rope.
link |
01:00:29.660
Sauna is like, oh, let me do that for 10 minutes
link |
01:00:32.740
after all of my gym workouts,
link |
01:00:34.860
just to keep the sweat going while I stretch and cool down.
link |
01:00:37.820
That's never like the, hey,
link |
01:00:39.420
I'm going to do five, 10 minute sessions
link |
01:00:41.200
because I need to lose two kilos.
link |
01:00:43.420
That is never the plan.
link |
01:00:44.820
Yeah.
link |
01:00:46.940
But I mean, so I've done plenty of sauna for weight cuts
link |
01:00:50.980
to know I can't even imagine what you went through.
link |
01:00:54.020
Yeah.
link |
01:00:54.860
And the seconds slow down.
link |
01:00:56.900
That's one way to achieve immortality is like
link |
01:00:59.540
the time slows down to like a stop
link |
01:01:02.020
and you're left alone with your thoughts.
link |
01:01:04.460
You can't do anything.
link |
01:01:05.300
Just like you said, you can't.
link |
01:01:06.420
There's nothing worse than sitting in that kind of heat
link |
01:01:09.080
for 10, 15 minutes.
link |
01:01:11.140
Yeah.
link |
01:01:11.980
And then you walk out and you're not even sweating.
link |
01:01:15.180
Yeah.
link |
01:01:16.020
There's nothing worse than that.
link |
01:01:17.060
And if you like, and maybe if you weigh yourself,
link |
01:01:19.380
which you probably shouldn't be doing
link |
01:01:20.780
because it'll break you.
link |
01:01:21.700
Yep.
link |
01:01:22.540
You haven't lost anything.
link |
01:01:23.420
Yep.
link |
01:01:25.100
And I was weighing myself every time
link |
01:01:26.820
because I only get breaks
link |
01:01:28.760
when I was hitting weight allotments.
link |
01:01:31.340
And so if I could lose 0.3 in 10 minutes,
link |
01:01:34.220
I'd give myself a break, but I had to hit certain numbers
link |
01:01:37.580
because I only have the sauna for a certain amount of time.
link |
01:01:40.260
And I remember one time I went downstairs
link |
01:01:42.500
to get my key to the sauna
link |
01:01:44.180
and the Japanese team had reserved it and took it from me
link |
01:01:47.860
because the guy didn't put my name on the list
link |
01:01:49.300
when I called down to get the sauna.
link |
01:01:51.040
So I lost an entire session that I had to get made up
link |
01:01:54.060
towards the later part of the day
link |
01:01:55.500
because I still have no running shoes.
link |
01:01:57.860
And then sure enough, my bags show up 30 minutes
link |
01:02:01.340
after weigh ins.
link |
01:02:03.980
Great.
link |
01:02:04.940
That's like the universe just kind of giving you
link |
01:02:07.380
a little wink there.
link |
01:02:08.580
Yep.
link |
01:02:10.660
I think like, because so few people do this weight cut
link |
01:02:15.060
at this high of a level, people don't often realize
link |
01:02:18.340
because people get a sense of how hard it is
link |
01:02:20.020
to run 200 miles in the desert.
link |
01:02:22.580
Like they, cause they go outside here in Texas,
link |
01:02:25.580
you can run five miles.
link |
01:02:26.580
Oh, it's hard.
link |
01:02:27.620
But like the weight cut is really,
link |
01:02:30.500
I, can you, so you just, like, how did you do it?
link |
01:02:34.960
Just fucking not refusing to.
link |
01:02:37.920
You have to make weight.
link |
01:02:38.940
You have to make weight and you just, that's.
link |
01:02:41.340
I am astounded when I hear like UFC fighters like miss weight.
link |
01:02:50.340
Right?
link |
01:02:51.620
Like when Jaden Cox missed weight at the Olympic trials,
link |
01:02:56.220
I was like, at least his was understandable
link |
01:02:59.940
because he missed the actual weigh ins.
link |
01:03:03.020
He didn't, he wasn't like not on weight.
link |
01:03:05.820
But when UFC fighters like miss weight,
link |
01:03:08.660
I'm like, how did that happen?
link |
01:03:12.340
You clearly like gave up a long time ago.
link |
01:03:16.540
There were times where I was like, well, I can't do this.
link |
01:03:19.940
There've been times where I've been in a sauna suit
link |
01:03:23.780
wrestling with a training partner who's probably 60 kilos
link |
01:03:27.240
who fought earlier that day to lose point three.
link |
01:03:31.340
Did lose point three.
link |
01:03:32.980
Like, are you considering your mortality in this moment?
link |
01:03:35.800
Like, aren't you thinking you're going to die?
link |
01:03:39.420
Because like, it's severe dehydration.
link |
01:03:41.340
You could damage your body.
link |
01:03:44.220
Are you thinking about any of this or is it just, man.
link |
01:03:51.780
OK, yes.
link |
01:03:52.580
But see, I'm on the other level too where like,
link |
01:03:55.500
I've been in Belgium, right?
link |
01:03:57.100
Belgium, there used to be a B level tournament.
link |
01:03:59.860
And the tournament used to go on.
link |
01:04:01.860
And because I was always on the heavier side,
link |
01:04:03.900
like 81s fights on the second day, which is the heavyweight day,
link |
01:04:08.140
weigh ins were always at like, let's say,
link |
01:04:10.260
2 p.m. the day before for that tournament.
link |
01:04:12.540
Well, there was a sauna at the tournament.
link |
01:04:15.100
I remember like being in the sauna and like, oh, I'm 80.9 kilos.
link |
01:04:22.820
Weigh ins aren't for three hours.
link |
01:04:24.100
Fuck it, I'm going to have lunch.
link |
01:04:29.220
Because I mentally understand that what I eat right now
link |
01:04:33.700
is going to fuel me for tomorrow.
link |
01:04:35.900
So I don't want to skip it.
link |
01:04:37.500
I have the time to put it into my system and still lose it.
link |
01:04:41.740
It's almost like a computer program.
link |
01:04:43.180
You're running through the process.
link |
01:04:46.100
I get it, but like that all relies on your ability to be.
link |
01:04:50.340
To get it back off.
link |
01:04:51.460
Yeah, I mean, but also just like go through this process,
link |
01:04:53.900
which is painful.
link |
01:04:54.700
It's like those monks who meditate while sitting in a fire
link |
01:04:57.020
kind of thing or something, right?
link |
01:05:00.660
Yeah, it's really interesting.
link |
01:05:02.500
Is there other people that are critical to this
link |
01:05:05.580
or is this all internal to you?
link |
01:05:07.460
Are there people that?
link |
01:05:09.820
Everybody has their own way of doing it.
link |
01:05:14.180
Some people don't cut that much.
link |
01:05:15.980
Some people can't weight cut at all, right?
link |
01:05:18.300
They would rather have been like 83 kilos fighting 90
link |
01:05:22.580
than, you know, be 83 kilos fighting 81.
link |
01:05:28.980
So why did you never move up to 90?
link |
01:05:32.540
What's your sense?
link |
01:05:33.780
Is it from your deep understanding of your own judo
link |
01:05:36.460
and like the judo opponents you would face at 90 and 81?
link |
01:05:40.540
Cause 81 is probably the hardest,
link |
01:05:42.980
if not the second hardest division in the history of judo
link |
01:05:45.820
compared to 73 and 81.
link |
01:05:49.100
You know, when I was a kid, like I always wanted to be
link |
01:05:52.740
like the middleweight Olympic champion,
link |
01:05:54.660
like the 81 kilo Olympic champion.
link |
01:05:57.300
When I was in high school, I made a decision
link |
01:06:00.140
when I was trying to make weight for 73,
link |
01:06:01.940
I was like, I was cutting weight for 73
link |
01:06:05.860
like I was cutting weight at the end of my career, right?
link |
01:06:09.020
And I was like, I'm just gonna bag it.
link |
01:06:11.580
I'm gonna accept the fact
link |
01:06:12.660
that I may not make a junior world team,
link |
01:06:14.260
I may not make this team, but I'll grow into the division
link |
01:06:18.020
so when I'm a senior player, like I'm ready to go
link |
01:06:20.500
and I'll naturally be stronger.
link |
01:06:22.700
There's an understanding of like a growth process
link |
01:06:25.020
when you move up a weight class.
link |
01:06:27.180
Most people can't just, oh, I'm gonna fight 90s
link |
01:06:31.540
and I'm gonna win because I wanted 81.
link |
01:06:33.860
The style of judo is different, how you move is different,
link |
01:06:37.260
how they do things is different.
link |
01:06:38.700
There's like a learning curve that goes into it.
link |
01:06:41.980
And because the weight cut didn't really happen
link |
01:06:45.180
until I was getting ready for Rio,
link |
01:06:47.500
I wasn't about to have my last Olympic games
link |
01:06:49.860
be at a different weight class
link |
01:06:51.020
that I may or may not be able to grow into.
link |
01:06:53.820
I mean, this is an awesome story of you kind of decided
link |
01:06:57.860
that this will be your life's work
link |
01:06:59.820
in terms of judo competitor is like the 81 division.
link |
01:07:03.540
I'm going to, I mean, I don't know if you saw it that way,
link |
01:07:05.700
but you're talking about three Olympics
link |
01:07:07.660
and it's like this story of, I would say tragedy and triumph
link |
01:07:13.540
of just wars and 81 kilograms with the usual cast
link |
01:07:18.660
of characters of the top five in the world kind of thing.
link |
01:07:21.980
So you just became a scholar of that,
link |
01:07:24.540
let your body grow into it and then let your body outgrow it
link |
01:07:28.020
and still suffer through it to keep it in the 81 kilograms.
link |
01:07:31.700
You never competed at like at the highest levels at 90.
link |
01:07:34.940
I entered one tournament at 90 kilos.
link |
01:07:37.980
And that was because before Rio from the end of 2014,
link |
01:07:46.980
all the way up until Rio's, every time I fought,
link |
01:07:49.700
I got hurt every time there was no time where I made weight
link |
01:07:54.580
and got injured because my body weight was so high.
link |
01:07:57.300
My body fat was so low that by the time I dehydrated enough
link |
01:08:01.220
to get down there and you take the physicality of judo
link |
01:08:04.420
and throw that into the mix, something broke every time.
link |
01:08:08.020
It was like nature of the beast.
link |
01:08:11.260
So the plan was before Rio,
link |
01:08:17.020
we made an agreement with USA judo
link |
01:08:19.060
that Travis, you're gonna fight 90 kilos,
link |
01:08:21.980
but you're not gonna weigh in at 90 kilos.
link |
01:08:23.740
Like, hey, there's no like, you get to be 94 kilos
link |
01:08:27.100
and cut to 90s, there's like a,
link |
01:08:29.260
you're gonna step on the scale at 84 kilos,
link |
01:08:31.960
like a little bit of a weight cut, but not a full one,
link |
01:08:34.920
just so that you feel like you get into like the tournament.
link |
01:08:38.180
Because when I, around 2012,
link |
01:08:41.380
when I was talking with the USOC nutritionist,
link |
01:08:44.500
I actually got my weight down so much
link |
01:08:46.180
that I didn't really need to cut weight.
link |
01:08:48.320
The problem is, is I wasn't cutting weight,
link |
01:08:49.760
I didn't feel like I was competing.
link |
01:08:51.420
Got it.
link |
01:08:52.260
Right, you have to go through like that mental process.
link |
01:08:55.140
And I never really reworked that,
link |
01:08:56.580
it was easier to just cut the weight and be ready to go.
link |
01:09:00.960
But when I entered into the 90 kilo division,
link |
01:09:02.960
I was rushed to the hospital the night after
link |
01:09:05.180
because my body broke out in hives, like full body.
link |
01:09:09.500
They said it was stress induced.
link |
01:09:13.480
Fascinating.
link |
01:09:14.460
So a month before the games, I was hospitalized and hungry
link |
01:09:18.380
and filled with steroids to get the hives to drop.
link |
01:09:21.820
And every couple days, my body, when I got back home,
link |
01:09:25.620
I would end up in the hospital
link |
01:09:27.300
because my whole body would break out again.
link |
01:09:29.020
I wonder if it's like deviating from the process
link |
01:09:31.100
that you so like perfectly crafted already.
link |
01:09:34.220
Or it was stress from my mind thinking,
link |
01:09:36.740
like even though it's not top of mind,
link |
01:09:39.700
there's probably a portion of me that like the Olympics
link |
01:09:41.820
is coming around and it could be my last, that like my body
link |
01:09:46.020
just reacted to something chemically.
link |
01:09:48.980
So I was breaking out in hives.
link |
01:09:50.880
I actually bought like a 600 euro Hugo boss suit
link |
01:09:55.740
because when I was in the Netherlands training at the time,
link |
01:09:59.100
I thought I had bed bugs
link |
01:10:00.780
because I was getting bit everywhere.
link |
01:10:02.700
Then I thought there was something in the detergent
link |
01:10:04.660
at the local thing, so I threw away all my clothes.
link |
01:10:07.560
Like I was paying for showers
link |
01:10:09.260
because I was trying to get the detergent off my body
link |
01:10:11.740
and buying new clothes at the airport.
link |
01:10:14.940
Trying to figure it out.
link |
01:10:16.140
Trying to figure it out and just go, yeah,
link |
01:10:18.100
accepting the situation.
link |
01:10:19.220
I mean, but the level of stress is exceptionally high here.
link |
01:10:22.300
Can we talk about the other side?
link |
01:10:24.580
People are gonna love this.
link |
01:10:26.740
But you have a long history of persevering through injuries,
link |
01:10:34.460
through insane amounts of injuries.
link |
01:10:37.660
My ability to tolerate pain
link |
01:10:39.060
is probably more than most people.
link |
01:10:41.740
But see, injuries aren't just pain, right?
link |
01:10:44.760
It's like, it's also mental, like psychological.
link |
01:10:49.180
Like again, like the weight cut,
link |
01:10:51.260
it can make a lot of people quit.
link |
01:10:53.040
Yep.
link |
01:10:54.420
Can you tell your history of injuries?
link |
01:10:57.940
What are the biggest injuries,
link |
01:10:59.660
the toughest injuries in your career?
link |
01:11:02.740
Starting from what, your early teens?
link |
01:11:05.460
My early teens, I actually got out of sports
link |
01:11:09.820
from 11 to, I wanna say like 15 years old, 16 years old,
link |
01:11:15.340
because a kid shot a double leg through my kneecap
link |
01:11:18.740
and I partially tore all the ligaments in my knee,
link |
01:11:21.100
cartilage, meniscus, the whole nine yards.
link |
01:11:23.580
And I had to learn how to walk again.
link |
01:11:25.340
I spent two years in a leg brace, crutches,
link |
01:11:29.780
hobbling around the school yard.
link |
01:11:32.100
That one was a challenge to come back from.
link |
01:11:36.180
I've broken most of my ribs.
link |
01:11:39.160
I won nationals with nine broken ribs.
link |
01:11:42.060
I was actually getting Novocaine shots into my chest
link |
01:11:45.540
to avoid feeling the pain
link |
01:11:47.420
and then wrapping them to try to
link |
01:11:49.780
make sure I didn't pop alone.
link |
01:11:53.860
I've broken my collarbone.
link |
01:11:55.980
I have five herniated disc in my neck.
link |
01:11:58.400
I fractured my back twice.
link |
01:12:00.720
I've broken my tailbone.
link |
01:12:02.300
I tore my SI joints.
link |
01:12:04.780
I've torn my right hamstring twice, my left one once.
link |
01:12:12.060
Broken my ankles a few times.
link |
01:12:13.920
I spun it once in a 360 that had dev surgery.
link |
01:12:18.140
Fingers, toes, elbows, shoulders.
link |
01:12:20.860
So all of these are, first of all,
link |
01:12:23.620
you're a tough dude, man.
link |
01:12:28.620
So each of those have a story behind them.
link |
01:12:33.720
So if you're talking about the collarbone or the ankles
link |
01:12:38.940
or the back, the neck,
link |
01:12:41.260
is there interesting stories here
link |
01:12:43.100
that are behind these injuries?
link |
01:12:44.740
Hard training, hard competing, jiu jitsu, judo.
link |
01:12:49.820
So ground stuff like sparring in the dojo
link |
01:12:53.780
or like drilling or all that kind of stuff.
link |
01:12:56.520
If you were to sort of break it down,
link |
01:12:59.260
your understanding of the landscape
link |
01:13:01.080
of injuries you went through.
link |
01:13:03.120
I've never had one in jiu jitsu, ever.
link |
01:13:07.880
I mean, I might've like torn a fingernail
link |
01:13:09.940
or like gotten key burned,
link |
01:13:12.880
but I've never been like seriously injured.
link |
01:13:16.840
I know when Ponza straight ankle locked me at Copa Podio,
link |
01:13:21.840
that hurt, but I wasn't injured.
link |
01:13:24.680
Like it felt sore, but if I had to run, I could run.
link |
01:13:28.760
I can now understand probably exactly
link |
01:13:31.200
what the injuries came from then.
link |
01:13:33.000
You very quickly excelled at jiu jitsu.
link |
01:13:36.360
You achieved another level in judo.
link |
01:13:39.040
And I think that means the intensity
link |
01:13:41.880
with which you approached judo.
link |
01:13:44.280
To achieve that world class level
link |
01:13:47.000
probably is the source of the injuries.
link |
01:13:49.280
Yeah, because the mentality of how I approached judo
link |
01:13:55.400
versus jiu jitsu.
link |
01:13:57.120
Jiu jitsu to me is like a game that like we would play.
link |
01:14:02.840
Like if you wanted to like grab a basketball
link |
01:14:04.680
and like go play a game of one on one,
link |
01:14:07.520
that's like jiu jitsu to me.
link |
01:14:09.040
Like I can't take the sport in its entirety seriously.
link |
01:14:13.720
Cause I feel like the community of jiu jitsu
link |
01:14:15.680
doesn't take it seriously.
link |
01:14:17.360
So just for people who don't know,
link |
01:14:19.240
just to set some context,
link |
01:14:21.400
you're a black belt in jiu jitsu,
link |
01:14:24.080
but more importantly,
link |
01:14:25.640
you've beaten a lot of world class jiu jitsu people.
link |
01:14:29.920
You've done very well at the highest levels of competition.
link |
01:14:33.040
Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily say I've beaten them
link |
01:14:35.440
as much as I've trained with them.
link |
01:14:39.080
And they understand whoever it is
link |
01:14:43.000
that through training with me,
link |
01:14:45.520
that like, I'm not just a judo guy.
link |
01:14:48.640
Like I know how to do jiu jitsu, right?
link |
01:14:52.040
And if any one of them were to come to me and like say,
link |
01:14:56.680
hey, I wanna feel what it feels like to do judo with me.
link |
01:15:05.600
They would quickly understand
link |
01:15:07.280
that like the way I approach one
link |
01:15:09.560
is very different than the way I approach the other.
link |
01:15:12.040
Like we probably wouldn't be friends
link |
01:15:14.160
if they did judo with me versus if they did jiu jitsu with me.
link |
01:15:17.440
I'm curious asking for a friend
link |
01:15:19.440
because mostly because I'll do a little judo with you today.
link |
01:15:22.880
So you clearly, cause you're a great instructor and teacher,
link |
01:15:25.600
you have a mode where you can demonstrate a technique.
link |
01:15:28.520
Do you know how to like spar where you're going like 50%?
link |
01:15:34.920
It's hard to put like a percentage to it
link |
01:15:37.040
because I've never in all of my jiu jitsu ever gone 100%.
link |
01:15:42.640
In jiu jitsu?
link |
01:15:43.480
Yeah.
link |
01:15:44.320
Like I had a conversation with Salo one time
link |
01:15:47.520
where we were talking about like jiu jitsu and training.
link |
01:15:51.200
And I was like, well, if I got his arm, I would just break it.
link |
01:15:55.520
And he was like, but what if he tapped?
link |
01:15:59.280
I go, that's not my responsibility.
link |
01:16:03.000
If he taps and the ref doesn't say anything,
link |
01:16:04.800
you just break it.
link |
01:16:05.880
You just keep going.
link |
01:16:07.320
He goes, but the tap means it's over.
link |
01:16:08.920
And I said, no, the ref tells me when it's over.
link |
01:16:11.280
I go, I never give you the opportunity to tap.
link |
01:16:14.360
Cause if you have the opportunity to tap,
link |
01:16:16.320
that means you had the opportunity to think about
link |
01:16:18.520
how to get out, make a decision that you can't, then tap.
link |
01:16:23.200
I clearly operated too slowly.
link |
01:16:26.040
So there's a, it's either broken or I don't have it.
link |
01:16:29.480
You're a terrifying person to go against in Judo.
link |
01:16:33.160
Like on the ground, like everything you did, that's amazing.
link |
01:16:38.160
That's really amazing.
link |
01:16:39.000
That's what made you a really fun person to watch.
link |
01:16:42.000
Cause you really went to war with these people.
link |
01:16:44.120
Yeah.
link |
01:16:45.000
So you know what it's like to go a hundred percent in Judo.
link |
01:16:47.560
I do.
link |
01:16:48.400
Cause I know what it's like to train with somebody
link |
01:16:52.280
under the mentality of,
link |
01:16:54.280
I'm going to do everything I want to do.
link |
01:16:56.480
You're going to do nothing you want to do.
link |
01:16:59.180
And you're going to accept that.
link |
01:17:01.720
Do you ever train in Judo where you let people get stuff?
link |
01:17:05.400
Of course, all the time.
link |
01:17:08.440
Now, or like.
link |
01:17:09.840
Always.
link |
01:17:10.860
Even when you're sort of building up the four years,
link |
01:17:12.880
building up to the Olympics,
link |
01:17:14.520
like there's smaller guys that are throwing you in the gym
link |
01:17:17.480
and that kind of stuff.
link |
01:17:18.360
No, I never said that.
link |
01:17:19.520
Okay.
link |
01:17:21.840
That never came out of my mouth.
link |
01:17:24.280
I said, I let people do stuff.
link |
01:17:25.720
I never said smaller people throw me.
link |
01:17:27.920
Oh, you mean you let them get a grip,
link |
01:17:29.500
but then you'll position yourself on such a way
link |
01:17:31.280
that it's hopeless.
link |
01:17:32.720
It's like.
link |
01:17:33.600
The number one skillset that Judo is going to teach you
link |
01:17:37.760
is the ability to give people false hope.
link |
01:17:43.980
Right?
link |
01:17:44.820
Cause I can let.
link |
01:17:45.640
I'm really looking forward to the video
link |
01:17:46.480
we're going to shoot later today.
link |
01:17:47.720
Like I can let you take a grip.
link |
01:17:50.640
I can let you think that there's opportunity,
link |
01:17:52.880
but what you don't understand is
link |
01:17:54.840
by the position and angle that I'm in,
link |
01:17:57.280
it's actually false hope.
link |
01:17:59.280
Like, as long as you don't know that it is,
link |
01:18:02.160
then now I'm free to operate and do what I want.
link |
01:18:04.880
See, I competed in Judo against black belts
link |
01:18:08.560
where I would go in and it looks like
link |
01:18:12.280
I could should be able to throw them.
link |
01:18:13.600
And then you just hit a wall.
link |
01:18:15.360
And then I also saw you destroy those black belts.
link |
01:18:18.720
Yeah.
link |
01:18:19.560
So there's levels to this.
link |
01:18:20.400
Yeah.
link |
01:18:21.240
It's the cliche thing of there's black belts
link |
01:18:23.380
and there's black belts.
link |
01:18:24.900
You're unique in this.
link |
01:18:26.160
There may be a couple other Jidoka in America,
link |
01:18:29.420
but you're really like unique.
link |
01:18:30.680
I then get to see people that really
link |
01:18:34.080
I felt like were 10X better than me.
link |
01:18:37.880
It just feels like that sometimes.
link |
01:18:39.360
I've learned that madness and it said it'd be truly
link |
01:18:41.720
might only be just a little better,
link |
01:18:44.000
but I saw you destroy them.
link |
01:18:46.720
And it was like, holy shit.
link |
01:18:49.260
There's a thing in Judo, right?
link |
01:18:51.360
Where, you know, imagine like you as like just an adult,
link |
01:18:56.560
right?
link |
01:18:59.440
And I hope people can like conceptualize this
link |
01:19:01.780
when they hear this,
link |
01:19:02.620
but imagine like you're a full grown adult,
link |
01:19:04.920
even male, female, it doesn't matter,
link |
01:19:07.180
but there's a little kid in front of you,
link |
01:19:08.440
like call him five or six years old and he's acting out.
link |
01:19:12.800
Like, do you think you have the physical capability
link |
01:19:15.720
of with one hand grabbing that person or that kid
link |
01:19:19.320
and making sure that they freeze?
link |
01:19:21.880
Like they feel like they're nervous
link |
01:19:23.480
and like they can't do anything.
link |
01:19:26.520
When you fight a good Judo player, when they grab you,
link |
01:19:30.020
that's what it feels like as an adult.
link |
01:19:32.200
And even I've felt that from like certain players in Japan,
link |
01:19:36.560
like when they get a grip,
link |
01:19:37.440
I'm like, I've now lost the function of this one.
link |
01:19:41.560
That's a really good way to put it.
link |
01:19:43.200
I think I could potentially beat some of the people
link |
01:19:46.280
I've went against, but certain groups they took,
link |
01:19:50.520
it made me feel powerless.
link |
01:19:53.880
I was like, I didn't know this was possible.
link |
01:19:56.160
That kind of power was possible.
link |
01:19:57.900
And you don't even know where it originates from.
link |
01:20:00.280
Cause you're like, how does one person's hand do this
link |
01:20:02.700
where I can't use my whole arm?
link |
01:20:04.920
Or like, I can't pick up my right foot
link |
01:20:06.880
because he's holding onto my right sleeve.
link |
01:20:09.320
It was kind of on a basic animalistic sense,
link |
01:20:13.160
kind of terrifying.
link |
01:20:15.120
It's, I mean, you don't want to,
link |
01:20:18.480
part of this is like ego,
link |
01:20:20.400
but you realize that there's a food chain
link |
01:20:22.940
and you're not at the top of it.
link |
01:20:26.480
That's part of the humbling process,
link |
01:20:28.120
I think of martial arts.
link |
01:20:29.160
It's like, I think everybody,
link |
01:20:33.160
like a lot of people think they're much higher
link |
01:20:36.360
in the food chain than they are.
link |
01:20:37.200
Than they really are.
link |
01:20:38.640
And then when you realize,
link |
01:20:39.960
this is why it's a really healthy process for people
link |
01:20:42.040
that are not even competing in the Olympics
link |
01:20:45.060
to practice martial arts.
link |
01:20:46.240
Cause you realize, okay,
link |
01:20:47.500
that like putting yourself more accurately
link |
01:20:49.960
in the food chain is really good way
link |
01:20:53.160
to sort of place yourself in the rest of the world.
link |
01:20:55.480
It humbles you to the reality, the harshness of the world.
link |
01:20:58.520
Yep.
link |
01:20:59.640
It's kind of like when people look at like survival
link |
01:21:01.720
in the wilderness, it's like, oh, it's not that hard.
link |
01:21:04.960
No, you'd probably be dying in a couple of days.
link |
01:21:07.520
Same thing with like judo and martial arts.
link |
01:21:09.840
Like, yeah, it's really not that hard,
link |
01:21:13.180
but you don't know what to do yet.
link |
01:21:15.420
And so when you find out that first time
link |
01:21:17.160
that you don't know what to do,
link |
01:21:18.920
it's devastating to a lot of people,
link |
01:21:21.120
but those that like stick through it and like start to learn,
link |
01:21:24.740
it's a very powerful, like feeling that now,
link |
01:21:27.880
like you can take care of yourself.
link |
01:21:31.120
And I think I want to talk to you a few times before
link |
01:21:34.780
you talked about that.
link |
01:21:35.620
There's like, like the top three, the top five in the world.
link |
01:21:38.900
I don't know where you put them,
link |
01:21:40.280
but they're, they're another like level above.
link |
01:21:43.440
They're a whole nother tier, yeah.
link |
01:21:45.040
And the fact that you're, I mean, it's,
link |
01:21:46.880
it's so exciting to me probably
link |
01:21:50.440
because I just felt all the levels here
link |
01:21:54.120
and I've seen you and others at that height destroy those.
link |
01:21:59.840
I've seen the exponential levels to this game.
link |
01:22:03.820
It's incredible that you're, didn't quit,
link |
01:22:08.320
didn't doubt yourself and just persevered
link |
01:22:11.560
through three Olympics to get to that highest,
link |
01:22:15.000
always fighting at that like very highest of levels,
link |
01:22:18.120
but just like, you know, from the top 10 to the top five,
link |
01:22:21.880
like really breaking in through that, I don't know.
link |
01:22:27.040
What would you say it took to get to that highest of levels?
link |
01:22:30.880
Like if you, when you look back to all the weight cuts,
link |
01:22:33.080
to just the insane amount of injuries, believe it or not,
link |
01:22:36.960
I didn't really think I was there until 2013.
link |
01:22:42.960
I thought I was recognized as one of the best
link |
01:22:45.840
because I was able to fight for Oppensburg,
link |
01:22:47.960
which was the professional Bundesliga team for Germany,
link |
01:22:50.600
which is one of the top clubs in all of Europe.
link |
01:22:54.000
When they asked me to, I felt like Europe had like accepted
link |
01:22:58.000
me as like, oh, I'm a top level judo player,
link |
01:23:02.480
but I don't necessarily think that when I signed on
link |
01:23:05.460
to compete for them, that the division or the world
link |
01:23:08.800
of judo saw me as a top level judo player, right?
link |
01:23:11.960
There's a mental shift that happens along that point.
link |
01:23:16.960
And for me, my mental shift really came into play
link |
01:23:22.280
in December of 2015 before Rio.
link |
01:23:26.640
That was like, when I lost in Japan,
link |
01:23:30.440
that's when I realized like the world respects my abilities
link |
01:23:34.960
and they compete against them.
link |
01:23:37.720
They don't compete against me as a person.
link |
01:23:40.400
They compete against the idea or the persona
link |
01:23:49.400
that I've been able to establish over the years
link |
01:23:52.760
of competing in the division.
link |
01:23:54.200
Wow, so you're the, they probably have a nickname for you.
link |
01:23:57.760
You're the system of ideas and thought that they study.
link |
01:24:02.080
But they're studying me as a conceptual whole,
link |
01:24:06.540
not me as the human.
link |
01:24:07.860
Is your style relatively unique in the 81 kilogram division?
link |
01:24:14.620
It was relatively unique for Kayla, I and Jimmy
link |
01:24:18.500
up until 2016.
link |
01:24:20.760
Now since 2016, you can see a lot of what we used to do
link |
01:24:25.380
throughout most of Europe and even Asia.
link |
01:24:27.760
Like you're starting to see some of those techniques
link |
01:24:29.580
that you didn't see before starting to get implemented.
link |
01:24:32.660
Because when I was gearing up for 2015,
link |
01:24:38.940
I had such a slew of injuries that entire calendar year
link |
01:24:42.820
that I never should have made it to Rio.
link |
01:24:46.340
I should have called it quits at the end of 2015
link |
01:24:49.420
because I suffered that major concussion in February.
link |
01:24:54.060
I stepped on a mat in May for the first time.
link |
01:24:57.620
I lost five straight tournaments.
link |
01:24:59.960
I left the national team, went to Japan, won Pan Am games,
link |
01:25:05.500
got a bacterial infection at the Worlds,
link |
01:25:07.500
almost had my leg cut off, tore my SI joint later
link |
01:25:10.860
on that year, and then took fifth in Japan.
link |
01:25:14.240
And when you look at like the calendar year as a whole,
link |
01:25:18.300
like the world should have treated me like I was washed up.
link |
01:25:22.220
Like this guy hasn't been training,
link |
01:25:23.620
he hasn't been doing anything, but I took fifth in Japan.
link |
01:25:26.800
Now, how does a guy that hasn't trained all year
link |
01:25:30.300
take fifth at one of the hardest tournaments in the world
link |
01:25:32.580
on two weeks of training?
link |
01:25:35.540
Because they were fighting the guy I used to be,
link |
01:25:40.300
not the guy I was at the tournament,
link |
01:25:42.460
which means they were competing under the idea of like,
link |
01:25:45.920
what is he really capable of?
link |
01:25:48.260
Not what have I brought to the table today?
link |
01:25:53.060
And that just gave you the confidence.
link |
01:25:54.700
And that told me that like, well, if I can take fifth
link |
01:25:57.900
and I'm this bad at judo right now,
link |
01:26:00.580
wait until I'm healthy and I'm back in shape,
link |
01:26:03.140
then they're not gonna know what hit them.
link |
01:26:04.780
One of the essential components of being the number one
link |
01:26:07.180
in the world or up in that place is that confidence,
link |
01:26:10.980
the self belief.
link |
01:26:11.980
And the rest of the world believing it.
link |
01:26:14.940
You can have all the confidence in the world,
link |
01:26:16.540
but if the rest of the room doesn't buy it, it's nothing.
link |
01:26:20.100
That's funny.
link |
01:26:21.060
It's like, there's certain people, right?
link |
01:26:22.620
Oh, Tyson, Mike Tyson.
link |
01:26:24.980
They all understand he could not train
link |
01:26:27.780
and they're still scared, right?
link |
01:26:30.220
Like he doesn't have to work out that hard anymore.
link |
01:26:32.420
There's several judo, you know this way better,
link |
01:26:34.900
but from a spectator perspective,
link |
01:26:36.380
like Ilias Iliadis is like that.
link |
01:26:38.140
He's one of them.
link |
01:26:39.460
It's like, he.
link |
01:26:41.300
He's portrayed over the years.
link |
01:26:42.780
Why is everyone so scared of that guy?
link |
01:26:45.940
It's interesting.
link |
01:26:46.940
Yep.
link |
01:26:47.780
People were scared of you too.
link |
01:26:49.280
People just gave a certain level of respect to my skillset
link |
01:26:54.040
and whether I had a bad weight cut
link |
01:26:56.360
or didn't have a bad weight cut
link |
01:26:58.200
or not trained for the last three months,
link |
01:27:00.120
which never happened, I'm just saying,
link |
01:27:02.360
they were gonna fight the persona.
link |
01:27:06.120
And it's an important distinction
link |
01:27:07.480
when you're looking at the top five
link |
01:27:08.840
because everybody coming up,
link |
01:27:12.120
they're training against the persona, not who you are.
link |
01:27:16.880
Even I did that at a younger age.
link |
01:27:19.880
That's why I would always go to people's hometowns
link |
01:27:22.660
because I don't care about the persona.
link |
01:27:25.120
I wanna know what you do day in and day out.
link |
01:27:27.980
When I couldn't beat a Russian,
link |
01:27:29.060
I told Jimmy, send me to Russia.
link |
01:27:30.760
I need to understand and see it with my own eyes
link |
01:27:34.320
what they do, outperform,
link |
01:27:36.020
so that I can believe that I can beat them.
link |
01:27:39.880
Can I ask you on this, a small tangent.
link |
01:27:43.280
Dagestan has produced some incredible wrestlers.
link |
01:27:46.360
I don't know what the story with judo is,
link |
01:27:48.560
where the source of greatness in Russia is for judo,
link |
01:27:53.740
but what do you make of Dagestan?
link |
01:27:55.520
Why, what is it in the culture of there or Russia broadly
link |
01:28:00.120
that produces greatness?
link |
01:28:02.700
Specifically in the combat sports.
link |
01:28:05.340
I don't know, yeah, specifically in the combat sports,
link |
01:28:07.520
sorry, but I don't know if you wanna draw a distinction
link |
01:28:09.720
between wrestling and judo.
link |
01:28:10.920
I'm almost curious,
link |
01:28:11.880
do you understand the differences there in the culture?
link |
01:28:15.120
It's still a combat sport to them.
link |
01:28:17.120
They're still in that same like realm
link |
01:28:20.280
of they're taking young kids and that's what they do.
link |
01:28:26.280
So Khabib speaks very highly of judo.
link |
01:28:29.980
It's funny, Khabib, Vladimir Putin.
link |
01:28:33.520
People don't get it,
link |
01:28:34.340
but like judo is like one of the premier sports
link |
01:28:37.440
in the world, but we just don't understand it.
link |
01:28:39.920
It's not just popularity, so definitely popularity,
link |
01:28:42.440
but also like this respect.
link |
01:28:44.880
And there's a certain thing,
link |
01:28:48.160
which is why I really value judo internationally.
link |
01:28:50.440
You don't get this in the United States,
link |
01:28:51.760
but internationally there's an understanding,
link |
01:28:55.280
like later in life,
link |
01:28:56.880
when you're a scientist meeting a businessman,
link |
01:28:59.960
when you both have done judo,
link |
01:29:01.620
there's this like nod of respect.
link |
01:29:04.520
It's so interesting.
link |
01:29:06.320
There's very few sports like that.
link |
01:29:07.840
Basketball doesn't have any,
link |
01:29:09.320
I don't know almost any sport like that.
link |
01:29:11.680
And it's fascinating.
link |
01:29:12.640
Wrestling has that in the US, but it's the US only.
link |
01:29:16.560
The rest of the world doesn't do that.
link |
01:29:18.100
There's a few, like you could see that in like Iran
link |
01:29:21.020
or something like that.
link |
01:29:21.860
They'll respect wrestling in that kind of way.
link |
01:29:24.680
Yeah, it's...
link |
01:29:26.440
But judo on like a global scale
link |
01:29:28.160
is probably that only one,
link |
01:29:30.760
due to its like physicality and the hardships
link |
01:29:34.480
that you have to go through to reach that upper level.
link |
01:29:38.120
So why do you think Dagestan,
link |
01:29:39.520
why do you think Khabib is as good as he is?
link |
01:29:41.400
Is this just the raw genetics of the human
link |
01:29:44.880
or is there something about the system?
link |
01:29:46.840
The system.
link |
01:29:48.640
It's all has to do with the system.
link |
01:29:50.920
So they grow up around fighting in all forms.
link |
01:29:55.560
Yep.
link |
01:29:57.400
They're also, I mean, their technique is exceptionally good.
link |
01:30:00.460
Because they grow up in it.
link |
01:30:02.720
They grow up in it.
link |
01:30:03.560
They don't understand anything else.
link |
01:30:08.280
So you don't have to,
link |
01:30:09.120
it's almost like you with the weight cutting.
link |
01:30:11.160
It's not like a big dramatic thing for them to fight.
link |
01:30:13.880
It's like, this is just part of life.
link |
01:30:16.040
Yes.
link |
01:30:16.880
And when you're, I don't wanna say bred into it,
link |
01:30:20.280
but when you've done it for,
link |
01:30:24.300
I wanna say like 90% of your life
link |
01:30:26.640
by the time like Khabib probably has,
link |
01:30:29.320
right from the time he could crawl,
link |
01:30:30.720
he's probably even grappling in some fashion thereof, right?
link |
01:30:37.000
When you, as grapplers,
link |
01:30:38.920
like you can look at a wrestler and having never seen
link |
01:30:42.760
this person before and go, you wrestled.
link |
01:30:45.960
Yeah.
link |
01:30:47.120
Why is that?
link |
01:30:48.280
It's because he's probably wrestled since he was like six.
link |
01:30:51.600
So the way he carries himself,
link |
01:30:53.920
the way his body is built,
link |
01:30:55.720
the way he grew into it was framed around wrestling, right?
link |
01:31:00.880
So the people in that culture are framed
link |
01:31:03.600
around fighting and grappling.
link |
01:31:06.200
You're right.
link |
01:31:07.040
First of all, philosophically, psychologically,
link |
01:31:10.320
but also just like the way you move your body.
link |
01:31:12.240
Yes.
link |
01:31:13.080
That means like when you're young,
link |
01:31:14.680
the people you admire move their body
link |
01:31:16.600
in a certain kind of way.
link |
01:31:17.960
And then genetically, it just, as they keep doing that,
link |
01:31:22.060
they're just gonna get better and better every generation.
link |
01:31:25.480
Yeah.
link |
01:31:26.560
It's just gonna keep improving
link |
01:31:27.840
because they just keep building into that system
link |
01:31:30.000
of turning them out.
link |
01:31:31.400
And part of it, there's like cultural stuff where,
link |
01:31:34.360
I mean, it's such an interesting approach to wrestling.
link |
01:31:36.640
I really wanna travel to Dagestan and just talk to them
link |
01:31:39.440
because I happen to be able to speak Russian.
link |
01:31:42.020
Because there's less value
link |
01:31:45.460
for this kind of materialistic success
link |
01:31:49.520
that I think sometimes can get in the way of greatness,
link |
01:31:53.500
it seems like.
link |
01:31:54.580
It makes coaching more difficult.
link |
01:31:56.420
It makes like following orders as an athlete more difficult.
link |
01:31:59.800
I don't know.
link |
01:32:00.640
We struggle with that in USA judo.
link |
01:32:02.300
Yeah.
link |
01:32:03.140
Cause you want more money,
link |
01:32:05.080
but then more money, if not applied correctly,
link |
01:32:08.100
can corrupt the system.
link |
01:32:09.760
Somehow it can split people up.
link |
01:32:11.160
It's just, it's same thing with the prestige
link |
01:32:13.200
around certain medals over others
link |
01:32:15.100
because athletes start chasing fame instead of development.
link |
01:32:22.040
Yeah.
link |
01:32:23.500
Yeah, that's, I mean, the Setia brothers
link |
01:32:26.320
are famous for this, like ignoring fame,
link |
01:32:29.520
ignoring all of this, like focus on the art itself.
link |
01:32:31.960
Not even, so it's not even the medals,
link |
01:32:34.280
exactly like you're saying,
link |
01:32:35.320
just the purity of like when you're in it
link |
01:32:38.040
and let everybody else figure out their stupid medals
link |
01:32:40.280
and money and all that.
link |
01:32:41.160
Cause it comes.
link |
01:32:42.160
It comes.
link |
01:32:43.000
Exactly.
link |
01:32:43.820
It's a result.
link |
01:32:44.660
Yeah, exactly.
link |
01:32:45.500
Like it's not that you don't appreciate it,
link |
01:32:46.880
but you know that it comes if you focus on the art.
link |
01:32:50.320
There's a distinction when you're talking
link |
01:32:53.400
about your athletic career or really any endeavor, right?
link |
01:32:58.680
The problem with goal setting is nobody teaches the athletes
link |
01:33:03.340
or the people how to transition
link |
01:33:06.240
from the goal to reality, right?
link |
01:33:08.960
So when you look at my career as a whole,
link |
01:33:12.560
like when I was getting ready for 2008,
link |
01:33:15.160
I actually forgot to train for it.
link |
01:33:17.260
I was so happy at such a young age
link |
01:33:19.480
that I became an Olympian that that in and of itself
link |
01:33:22.600
was a goal that I thought had to be admired,
link |
01:33:25.660
had to be celebrated that, you know,
link |
01:33:28.040
the games are right around the corner.
link |
01:33:30.020
I didn't really come down off that high.
link |
01:33:32.640
You're the local optimum of just winning the trials.
link |
01:33:37.080
Yeah.
link |
01:33:37.920
That was.
link |
01:33:38.760
It's a big thing.
link |
01:33:39.580
It's a huge thing.
link |
01:33:40.420
But then you're just focusing on the accomplishment,
link |
01:33:42.320
not the.
link |
01:33:43.160
Correct.
link |
01:33:43.980
But at some point, right, when I went into London,
link |
01:33:48.880
I actually went into London going with,
link |
01:33:51.540
I'm gonna prove I'm the best in the world
link |
01:33:53.280
cause I believe I'm the best in the world.
link |
01:33:55.440
And I believe it from like the bottom of my soul
link |
01:33:58.560
that I'm winning this.
link |
01:34:00.380
And then you're almost like trying to tell the universe,
link |
01:34:04.320
like I'm accomplishing this thing because it's a goal.
link |
01:34:07.640
But when I went into Rio,
link |
01:34:10.920
I just accepted the fact that I was winning.
link |
01:34:13.780
It's not a goal.
link |
01:34:14.620
Like this is happening.
link |
01:34:16.780
You visualize it.
link |
01:34:18.440
But I felt it.
link |
01:34:19.540
You felt it.
link |
01:34:20.440
Right?
link |
01:34:21.280
Like this is no longer a goal anymore.
link |
01:34:24.980
Like I anticipated, like this is happening.
link |
01:34:27.420
I can see this coming down the path
link |
01:34:29.980
because I'm anticipating that the games is happening
link |
01:34:33.740
and I'm gonna win.
link |
01:34:34.580
It's not a goal.
link |
01:34:35.860
It's an anticipation.
link |
01:34:36.820
And there's a distinct distinction there
link |
01:34:39.140
between the two.
link |
01:34:41.380
Okay, so for people who are just watching the video of this,
link |
01:34:44.660
there should be an overlay of Young Travis.
link |
01:34:50.140
This is, you still had to make 81.
link |
01:34:52.780
Is this still a tough cut here?
link |
01:34:54.920
No, this one was relatively easy.
link |
01:34:56.680
This is going all the way back to 2008.
link |
01:34:59.700
So this is the summer before the games.
link |
01:35:03.500
This probably happened in June, I would say.
link |
01:35:08.860
So this is the Olympic trials.
link |
01:35:11.740
So in the United States,
link |
01:35:13.500
you have to, I mean, similar to like wrestling,
link |
01:35:15.980
you have to win the trials to qualify
link |
01:35:18.300
for that particular division
link |
01:35:19.880
to represent the United States.
link |
01:35:21.700
So this is, you said June before an August Olympics?
link |
01:35:24.600
Yep.
link |
01:35:25.740
So here, I just wanted to show this match
link |
01:35:27.940
because what was, there's another one.
link |
01:35:31.180
I think you do a pin,
link |
01:35:32.300
you do some nice ground work in the other one.
link |
01:35:34.420
But in this one.
link |
01:35:37.800
Fighting a teammate.
link |
01:35:39.300
Fighting a teammate.
link |
01:35:40.260
Former teammate.
link |
01:35:41.100
Oh, there's an old school double leg.
link |
01:35:42.440
I forgot about that.
link |
01:35:43.640
And it's weird to see.
link |
01:35:45.940
So there, the Travis's opponent,
link |
01:35:49.780
and Travis is setting up here
link |
01:35:51.420
that Sayonagi posting his left arm and getting it done.
link |
01:35:59.020
That's a big, that's a big throw.
link |
01:36:01.380
You don't have too many of those big throws on video.
link |
01:36:06.060
Cause like you often on video,
link |
01:36:07.840
you're going against the best people in the world.
link |
01:36:09.700
It's tough to get like that much air.
link |
01:36:12.260
And a lot of times the ones that we do see
link |
01:36:15.040
and the part that a lot of people don't experience
link |
01:36:19.540
is a lot of those times
link |
01:36:21.780
where I threw people with that throw,
link |
01:36:23.780
it was in training camps.
link |
01:36:25.680
So by the time I got to the competition with these guys,
link |
01:36:29.020
they were playing a hundred percent defense
link |
01:36:32.000
to never let me do that.
link |
01:36:33.400
Yeah.
link |
01:36:34.420
So you do this here.
link |
01:36:36.900
Are you kind of pulling him down?
link |
01:36:38.420
No, he's, I'm trying to get him to come up.
link |
01:36:41.580
But are you pulling him down to get to fake him out?
link |
01:36:43.580
I'm not doing anything with my left hand.
link |
01:36:46.960
So here the opponent is.
link |
01:36:48.820
So what I'm doing right now is his head is like in my chest.
link |
01:36:52.600
I'm pressing him to get his head to lift with my chest.
link |
01:36:58.120
So I'm pressing his hand down so I can use my chest
link |
01:37:00.980
to like pinch my scaps and roll his head up
link |
01:37:04.180
so that he wants to pick it up.
link |
01:37:06.540
And then he, I mean, doesn't he know what's coming here?
link |
01:37:10.620
Oh no, he might not.
link |
01:37:12.660
Oh no, he knew, he was a former teammate.
link |
01:37:14.380
He knew exactly what I was trying to do.
link |
01:37:16.540
And that was a really big step with your right foot.
link |
01:37:20.220
It covers about four feet in distance.
link |
01:37:26.380
And your left catches up in like perfect position.
link |
01:37:32.620
Yeah, you back it up a little bit.
link |
01:37:36.100
Keep going, keep going.
link |
01:37:39.020
Right there, this is like an important distinction
link |
01:37:41.980
between mine and everybody else's
link |
01:37:44.240
is because I split his hip,
link |
01:37:48.420
I actually, once I'm able to split,
link |
01:37:50.940
I no longer need his center of gravity below mine.
link |
01:37:55.620
Right, and when you say split,
link |
01:37:56.860
you mean you put your foot in between.
link |
01:37:59.540
I do that split, that four foot split.
link |
01:38:02.180
And then when I get my feet back together,
link |
01:38:04.700
it doesn't matter that I'm under his center of gravity
link |
01:38:06.980
or not.
link |
01:38:09.060
That's why my chest is right around his sternum height
link |
01:38:13.980
for me.
link |
01:38:15.180
Yeah, so there, I mean, how does he get,
link |
01:38:17.900
for people just listening to this,
link |
01:38:19.140
Travis Steps does a big, huge step, gets.
link |
01:38:23.900
Like my hip is probably right around his nipple
link |
01:38:26.860
because he's sprawled back so much.
link |
01:38:28.900
Yeah, that's right.
link |
01:38:30.400
So like, so you're, how does the physics of this work?
link |
01:38:33.220
You're violating the principle of your center of mass
link |
01:38:36.320
being under, oh, I guess somehow it is.
link |
01:38:38.900
I don't know, but he has nowhere to go.
link |
01:38:40.820
He's screwed.
link |
01:38:41.940
Yes, that's the kicker is the way mine works is
link |
01:38:47.580
in order for him to play an effective defense,
link |
01:38:50.820
he needs to have his feet firmly planted on the ground
link |
01:38:53.960
with friction.
link |
01:38:55.420
Yeah.
link |
01:38:56.260
Otherwise he can't press into me to stop it.
link |
01:38:59.040
So when I get him to sprawl back, when I split his legs,
link |
01:39:02.340
he effectively loses that contact with the floor.
link |
01:39:05.620
Even though his feet are on the floor,
link |
01:39:07.700
they're not in a position where he can drive from them.
link |
01:39:10.200
Yeah.
link |
01:39:11.040
So therefore when I flip, he flips.
link |
01:39:12.860
So there's a natural like flailing here.
link |
01:39:17.700
So he's not falling forward.
link |
01:39:20.260
You're falling forward.
link |
01:39:21.700
Yeah.
link |
01:39:22.520
He's just attached to you.
link |
01:39:23.360
So like you can keep him up there
link |
01:39:25.080
and then like legs would be just flailing.
link |
01:39:27.100
Yep, one of my golden rules when I'm training
link |
01:39:30.760
and I get really tired, one of the like mantras
link |
01:39:33.780
I would always tell myself is I'm gonna put my back
link |
01:39:36.640
on your chest and then I'm gonna put my back on the floor.
link |
01:39:39.580
Yeah.
link |
01:39:40.420
It's gonna be underneath me.
link |
01:39:41.500
That's a good principle to.
link |
01:39:42.940
It's very simple.
link |
01:39:43.940
And it, regardless of like all the chaos
link |
01:39:46.500
and how quickly things are happening,
link |
01:39:48.380
it's something I can just dumb everything down to
link |
01:39:50.460
and focus on.
link |
01:39:51.820
Regardless of the gripping situation, the footwork,
link |
01:39:54.240
all of that, get my back to your chest
link |
01:39:56.460
and then put my back on the floor.
link |
01:39:58.180
So this step of getting your back to their chest,
link |
01:40:02.400
like for people who are sort of more,
link |
01:40:04.860
like for example, for people like me,
link |
01:40:07.180
who are just like amateur Judo people,
link |
01:40:09.580
like there's all kinds of ways to prevent this turn
link |
01:40:12.900
from happening, the gripping and just everything.
link |
01:40:17.420
How difficult is it at the highest level
link |
01:40:19.420
to get into this position?
link |
01:40:21.780
I mean, you make it look effortless often,
link |
01:40:23.960
but like to get to the position where you're
link |
01:40:25.780
from facing them to your back is to them.
link |
01:40:29.640
Is that like strategy?
link |
01:40:30.940
Is that timing?
link |
01:40:32.060
Is that?
link |
01:40:32.900
Timing.
link |
01:40:34.180
It's timing.
link |
01:40:35.000
It's like anything, like if I wanted to punch you
link |
01:40:38.260
in the face, like how hard is it to really do that
link |
01:40:41.100
if you know you can just play defense and block it?
link |
01:40:44.220
The trick is to get them to play defense
link |
01:40:46.260
to something that never happened.
link |
01:40:50.780
And then you go through like another way.
link |
01:40:52.520
And then you just go through what would technically
link |
01:40:54.780
be your first plan if you planned on them playing defense.
link |
01:40:58.220
So I set the stage from the very beginning for this to work.
link |
01:41:03.760
So then this, you're celebrating here,
link |
01:41:07.300
it's a huge sort of, once a big accomplishments,
link |
01:41:11.660
big relief to qualify for the Olympics.
link |
01:41:14.980
And then you go into the Olympics
link |
01:41:16.740
and this is where I first saw Judo.
link |
01:41:19.440
And I kind of thought of them as the same
link |
01:41:21.940
as Judo and Jiu Jitsu.
link |
01:41:24.660
And I was really impressed by your performance
link |
01:41:26.440
in that Olympics.
link |
01:41:28.420
The footage nowhere to be found these days,
link |
01:41:30.580
but at that time I think you could still,
link |
01:41:34.300
you could watch it live on NBC Olympics
link |
01:41:36.940
or somewhere like that.
link |
01:41:38.860
And I remember watching several of your matches.
link |
01:41:41.200
One of them was the match against Ole Bischoff, the German.
link |
01:41:45.180
And I remember being, it'd be nice
link |
01:41:47.100
if you can talk to that match because I don't remember it.
link |
01:41:49.400
All I remember is being frustrated.
link |
01:41:53.240
Yep.
link |
01:41:54.520
By him not letting you play Judo.
link |
01:41:58.540
Yeah.
link |
01:41:59.420
So obviously you faced him again four years later
link |
01:42:03.460
and there's a lot of frustration there as well.
link |
01:42:05.500
But I remember being extra frustrated in 2008.
link |
01:42:09.180
What was that match like?
link |
01:42:10.300
So he might've been number one in the world at the time
link |
01:42:12.900
or up there?
link |
01:42:13.740
He was up there for sure, especially going into 2008.
link |
01:42:18.420
He was really high up there.
link |
01:42:19.780
Yeah.
link |
01:42:20.620
And did he win gold at that Olympics?
link |
01:42:24.940
Yes.
link |
01:42:25.780
Yeah.
link |
01:42:26.600
Because he silvered in London.
link |
01:42:27.440
It was the same Olympic final both in 2008 and London.
link |
01:42:31.420
Yeah.
link |
01:42:32.340
Okay, so you're facing him there.
link |
01:42:35.660
Were you intimidated?
link |
01:42:36.720
What was the strategy?
link |
01:42:37.560
Can you talk to that match?
link |
01:42:39.640
Because it kind of sets the stage for the rematch in 2012.
link |
01:42:43.860
Yeah, he was somebody that I had trained with in the past.
link |
01:42:48.060
And for some reason, when it comes to him and I,
link |
01:42:51.940
when we train together,
link |
01:42:55.680
it's more of a physical altercation
link |
01:42:57.800
than a Judo training session.
link |
01:42:59.440
It's just the coaches have had to break us up a few times.
link |
01:43:04.440
Or you guys get almost angry too?
link |
01:43:06.920
A little bit.
link |
01:43:07.740
It always goes farther than it should.
link |
01:43:11.320
We're friends.
link |
01:43:12.160
We say hello to each other.
link |
01:43:13.560
But for some reason, when we train together,
link |
01:43:15.480
there's something about him and me that just oil and water.
link |
01:43:19.360
I don't know what it is.
link |
01:43:20.440
Could it be also the gripping?
link |
01:43:21.640
Because he's a great gripping strategist.
link |
01:43:24.160
Does he frustrate you with certain kinds of grips
link |
01:43:26.320
and then you get pissed off and then you frustrate him?
link |
01:43:28.940
And then he gets pissed off
link |
01:43:30.080
and then before you know it, somebody's kicked somebody
link |
01:43:32.240
or punched somebody in the mouth or done something.
link |
01:43:34.760
Yeah, so one of the only evidences we have online
link |
01:43:38.120
of you fighting him is your foot in his groin area
link |
01:43:44.480
is the only thing we have from that Olympics.
link |
01:43:46.600
From 2008.
link |
01:43:47.720
From 2008, yeah.
link |
01:43:48.920
And to answer everybody's question, yes, it was deliberate.
link |
01:43:52.680
Now you can say this.
link |
01:43:53.940
Yeah.
link |
01:43:54.780
But yeah, I remember there being a lot of frustration.
link |
01:43:57.560
You're actually going for a lot of stuff
link |
01:43:59.920
like sacrifice throws.
link |
01:44:00.800
I mean, maybe you're not going
link |
01:44:01.920
for the highest scoring epons,
link |
01:44:03.440
but you're just trying to shake things up,
link |
01:44:05.280
if I remember correctly.
link |
01:44:06.460
Yeah, because when he, I was so young then that,
link |
01:44:09.880
and he was in his prime really at that time, right?
link |
01:44:13.120
He must've been 24, 25, 26,
link |
01:44:18.560
world medalist, European champion at the time.
link |
01:44:22.280
And when he would grab me,
link |
01:44:24.380
I had that sense of feeling stuck.
link |
01:44:27.460
Like I was strong enough if I used all my strength
link |
01:44:30.280
to not let him do anything,
link |
01:44:32.200
but then you can't be offensive
link |
01:44:33.600
when you're using all your strength
link |
01:44:34.840
to hold onto the situation.
link |
01:44:38.000
So I was getting really aggravated
link |
01:44:39.880
because I couldn't generate any offense
link |
01:44:43.320
with every time I felt like I gained an advantage
link |
01:44:45.640
in the gripping scenario,
link |
01:44:47.200
he would take some obscure grip somewhere that was like,
link |
01:44:50.940
well, now I've got to go address this thing,
link |
01:44:52.640
give up what I gained and I have to go back.
link |
01:44:54.820
And if I were to think about watching the match now,
link |
01:44:59.520
it probably looked like a lot of flailing
link |
01:45:01.720
because we're just trying to generate enough
link |
01:45:04.440
to not get a penalty,
link |
01:45:05.960
but also not enough to where he could counter it.
link |
01:45:10.080
Did you think you could beat him
link |
01:45:11.840
like when you were walking into the match?
link |
01:45:14.200
Until I gripped him for the first time,
link |
01:45:16.000
like, cause I had trained with him before,
link |
01:45:19.120
he felt stronger and more in shape
link |
01:45:21.940
than I've ever felt him that day.
link |
01:45:24.640
At that Olympics, which begs a whole nother question.
link |
01:45:30.360
But I remember when he grabbed me for that first time,
link |
01:45:37.840
I went, this is different.
link |
01:45:40.720
And there was a sense of panic at the time
link |
01:45:42.760
cause I was like, holy crap, where did this come from?
link |
01:45:45.960
This is not the guy that I've trained with that I expected.
link |
01:45:51.120
Cause it was a definite like level change
link |
01:45:53.880
in like his ability, strength, speed, and stamina.
link |
01:45:57.680
Like looking back at that, can you explain that?
link |
01:46:00.360
Is it just you being more, less confident
link |
01:46:04.280
because it was the Olympics?
link |
01:46:05.480
It was, is there some kind of routine that he followed
link |
01:46:08.560
to like really level up in intensity
link |
01:46:10.840
for this particular event?
link |
01:46:12.200
I've been told that he only gets to like his prime
link |
01:46:17.160
for like really big events.
link |
01:46:20.320
Like he doesn't train like year round like I would train,
link |
01:46:23.920
but when it comes to like the games,
link |
01:46:25.440
he doesn't do social media, he doesn't work,
link |
01:46:29.040
he lives, breathes, eats his training for the games,
link |
01:46:33.400
which could institute that level.
link |
01:46:36.500
What about you?
link |
01:46:37.680
Is there a, like Dan Gable famously said,
link |
01:46:40.480
like the one loss he had in college,
link |
01:46:42.480
he was doing a lot of media and stuff.
link |
01:46:44.120
Back then there was no social media.
link |
01:46:46.320
That was a huge mistake for him.
link |
01:46:48.560
Do you do social media, do you do like?
link |
01:46:51.160
At that, at this point?
link |
01:46:52.480
Well, at that time it was like AOL.
link |
01:46:53.720
I don't know, what's 2008?
link |
01:46:55.000
I didn't even have a Facebook page, a MySpace,
link |
01:46:58.240
nothing at this point.
link |
01:46:59.600
I got my first Facebook page from the USOC in 2012.
link |
01:47:04.240
When I went through the media thing,
link |
01:47:05.400
the lady was like, you have to have it.
link |
01:47:07.680
I go, I don't want it.
link |
01:47:08.960
I don't like people.
link |
01:47:09.960
I want to deal with the people.
link |
01:47:11.960
What am I supposed to do?
link |
01:47:13.200
You know, like the social part of the social media.
link |
01:47:15.280
No.
link |
01:47:16.120
Okay.
link |
01:47:17.920
I have to bring this up because,
link |
01:47:20.320
and then you went on to face Tiago Camilo.
link |
01:47:22.800
You lost that match, but he went on to win bronze.
link |
01:47:24.920
That's also an interesting one, but we can skip ahead.
link |
01:47:27.480
I just remember being really impressed
link |
01:47:29.000
both by your groundwork.
link |
01:47:31.560
That was a match I should have won.
link |
01:47:33.280
Yeah.
link |
01:47:34.120
I should have won that.
link |
01:47:34.960
I was, if you don't know judo,
link |
01:47:38.480
you would visually watch that and be like, I'm winning.
link |
01:47:40.880
But he was technically winning on the scoreboard.
link |
01:47:43.240
So it is what it is.
link |
01:47:44.760
But the point that he got that solidified his win,
link |
01:47:49.760
yes, it was a point back in those days.
link |
01:47:51.800
So I can't say anything, but like my shoulder
link |
01:47:55.240
nicked the ground.
link |
01:47:56.840
So it's like, I don't know.
link |
01:47:58.400
Yeah. A lot of the stories of your Olympic career
link |
01:48:01.560
is like from a fan perspective,
link |
01:48:04.680
it seems like you should have won
link |
01:48:06.720
or you very close to could have won.
link |
01:48:09.080
Yes.
link |
01:48:09.920
And there was a lot of frustration in you
link |
01:48:11.280
and your game being like shut down in certain ways.
link |
01:48:14.120
But like the thing that immediately grabbed me in 2008
link |
01:48:19.160
was how much, something about the way you approached judo,
link |
01:48:22.960
how much you wanted to win.
link |
01:48:24.880
Cause I was young then.
link |
01:48:26.440
I was, when I was at this time of my career,
link |
01:48:31.000
I was out to like win.
link |
01:48:34.040
Like there was no like, I'm going to grab you,
link |
01:48:36.320
I'm going to throw you.
link |
01:48:37.160
And if not, you're going to go through a battle.
link |
01:48:40.240
Yeah.
link |
01:48:41.080
You're going to make sure you earned it.
link |
01:48:42.640
It so happened that you competing in 2008,
link |
01:48:47.160
I was, I became a fan of yours at that moment.
link |
01:48:51.240
And since then, I kind of knew about judo.
link |
01:48:55.040
My university had a judo club
link |
01:48:57.640
and I kind of knew about jujitsu from mixed martial arts.
link |
01:49:01.800
And obviously I wrestled for many years before
link |
01:49:04.280
and I love wrestling,
link |
01:49:06.000
but there's something about you competing that made me,
link |
01:49:09.960
well, there's no other way to say it,
link |
01:49:11.080
but it like changed the direction of my life.
link |
01:49:12.680
Cause it forced me to say, you know what?
link |
01:49:15.360
I'm going to start judo and jujitsu.
link |
01:49:18.040
And first of all, for that, I'm really grateful,
link |
01:49:20.800
but it's fascinating to think,
link |
01:49:22.120
because this kid who's 22 years old,
link |
01:49:24.200
I'm sure I'm not the only one that you've influenced,
link |
01:49:27.680
like you've changed the direction of my life.
link |
01:49:30.080
And there could be huge number of others like that.
link |
01:49:33.600
I mean, that's the power of you as an individual
link |
01:49:36.520
at the, on the Olympic stage.
link |
01:49:38.760
You ever think about the pressure of that?
link |
01:49:40.200
Did you, did you think as a 22 year old,
link |
01:49:42.640
there's a bunch of people,
link |
01:49:44.480
like I know I'm not the only one who changed.
link |
01:49:46.680
I just happened to have like a microphone recently.
link |
01:49:50.440
You know what I mean?
link |
01:49:51.280
Like, is that, it's fascinating to think about, right?
link |
01:49:54.520
Like you, perhaps you didn't think about this.
link |
01:49:57.280
It's just, it's just a judo match,
link |
01:49:59.400
but you like, you influenced hundreds of thousands of people
link |
01:50:02.600
if not millions.
link |
01:50:03.440
Is that interesting?
link |
01:50:04.800
It's, it's not something that really hit me
link |
01:50:09.640
until 2012 when I lost,
link |
01:50:17.040
because that's when like,
link |
01:50:20.600
I would say like the world felt bad for me at that point.
link |
01:50:25.520
And that's when you knew that like people were watching
link |
01:50:31.000
and people were inspired by the loss
link |
01:50:34.080
because of how much went into that match.
link |
01:50:36.240
Because, you know, the 99% of us who watched it
link |
01:50:41.080
thought I won, except for the 1% of the people
link |
01:50:44.520
who were considered judges at that day in the event.
link |
01:50:48.280
So.
link |
01:50:49.200
But I mean, that's the, the win or lose,
link |
01:50:52.240
that, that was a really inspiring match.
link |
01:50:54.200
And that's when it, that's when it dinged that like,
link |
01:50:58.560
because I don't, I don't watch something
link |
01:51:00.680
and really get inspired by like the person and the act.
link |
01:51:05.160
It's like a, it's an accumulative thing.
link |
01:51:08.440
But for a lot of people, like when they watch
link |
01:51:12.080
how much goes into it,
link |
01:51:13.840
and then when I broke down on the match,
link |
01:51:16.040
like the amount of suffering that happens
link |
01:51:18.800
when you lose a match like that.
link |
01:51:20.320
And then, you know, really coming back and winning in Rio,
link |
01:51:26.080
there's a trend of people who were inspired
link |
01:51:29.200
that knew about London.
link |
01:51:30.920
And then when they found out I won in Rio,
link |
01:51:33.520
that's when like people like in droves felt like
link |
01:51:36.920
they could overcome their own personal obstacles
link |
01:51:39.440
to still achieve something
link |
01:51:41.440
because they've witnessed somebody who's fallen
link |
01:51:44.160
and gotten back up.
link |
01:51:46.440
Yeah.
link |
01:51:47.280
But it's not something that you think about like on the day.
link |
01:51:52.520
It's when you look back and you go, oh, cause and effect.
link |
01:51:55.920
I wonder if you can comment on that.
link |
01:51:57.680
I'm trying to realize and live up to the fact
link |
01:52:01.760
that there's like young people that come up to me
link |
01:52:05.680
and I'm starting to realize like certain words I say
link |
01:52:09.240
will have a long lasting impact on them.
link |
01:52:11.400
Yep.
link |
01:52:12.240
Cause you say it as like, you don't even,
link |
01:52:14.560
it doesn't just, the whim.
link |
01:52:16.560
Some of them might come back 30 years later
link |
01:52:19.320
and a word I said was the reason they quit a thing
link |
01:52:22.800
and started the new thing that led them
link |
01:52:24.640
to become their true self, like to find success,
link |
01:52:27.880
all that kind of stuff like.
link |
01:52:29.200
On the flip side though, some people based on the actions
link |
01:52:32.600
that we do today, even with this cast
link |
01:52:35.720
will alter the course of their lives forever.
link |
01:52:40.120
I had a guy one time, was it after London?
link |
01:52:44.840
It must've been after London.
link |
01:52:46.920
He actually found me on Instagram,
link |
01:52:50.160
wrote me what seemed to be like a dissertation on Instagram
link |
01:52:53.920
about how much I disrespected him
link |
01:52:58.800
14 years earlier because I didn't step on a podium
link |
01:53:03.320
to take a picture after winning a tournament
link |
01:53:05.280
where he bronzed.
link |
01:53:06.920
Yeah.
link |
01:53:07.760
And I'm thinking to myself, like at the time,
link |
01:53:11.640
like having dinner with my family
link |
01:53:14.160
because I had to leave the next morning
link |
01:53:15.760
was more important to me as a person,
link |
01:53:18.600
not thinking about who you potentially will become
link |
01:53:23.600
and the actions of whatever you do today,
link |
01:53:29.560
if you do become quote unquote famous
link |
01:53:32.160
or somebody in a spotlight,
link |
01:53:34.280
that that could come back to bite you.
link |
01:53:36.520
To me, I don't know about you,
link |
01:53:37.600
that's super motivating,
link |
01:53:40.520
like not to be a lesser version of myself ever.
link |
01:53:46.480
Yeah.
link |
01:53:47.320
Just be on top of your game, whatever that game is,
link |
01:53:49.280
be on top of your game when you interacting with people
link |
01:53:51.360
and when you're just in your own private life.
link |
01:53:53.920
I'm trying to make sure
link |
01:53:54.760
that I'm the exactly same person privately
link |
01:53:56.560
as I am publicly and like making sure I'm on point.
link |
01:54:00.160
I see like just hanging out with Joe Rogan a lot.
link |
01:54:03.560
I see how he's, first of all, the exact same person.
link |
01:54:06.720
And second, he like walks around
link |
01:54:10.080
and there's like a huge number of fans
link |
01:54:11.720
and you'll just take pictures and like, it's very cool.
link |
01:54:14.840
And it's very cognizant of like certain words he says,
link |
01:54:17.440
especially young people, like they're going to take that.
link |
01:54:20.200
And that's going to be a memory for them
link |
01:54:21.920
for a couple of years that might be influential
link |
01:54:24.240
for the rest of their life.
link |
01:54:25.120
So I don't know, that's a cool responsibility,
link |
01:54:30.000
not to fuck it up.
link |
01:54:31.640
But anyway, I bring all that up to just say, thank you.
link |
01:54:38.360
So even if you like were frustrated
link |
01:54:40.200
that you didn't win a medal,
link |
01:54:41.560
at least you influenced one silly Russian kid
link |
01:54:46.720
to get into the martial arts.
link |
01:54:48.160
And what happens when you get into martial arts,
link |
01:54:50.080
it alters the direction of your life.
link |
01:54:52.000
Mine for the better.
link |
01:54:54.640
Okay, so let's go to London 2012 Olympics.
link |
01:55:00.240
One of the most dramatic judo battles of all time rematch.
link |
01:55:08.320
So you've reached the semifinals once again
link |
01:55:10.600
to face the German, Ole Bischoff.
link |
01:55:14.360
Do you mind if we step through that match a little bit?
link |
01:55:16.800
Yeah, by all means.
link |
01:55:20.680
I've only ever watched the entire thing one time
link |
01:55:23.160
just because, fucking.
link |
01:55:29.160
So for context, for the listener,
link |
01:55:33.920
Travis, first of all, you don't like losing.
link |
01:55:37.160
I think that's fair to say.
link |
01:55:38.640
You know, the hard part with this match
link |
01:55:41.680
is because I went into this Olympics thinking,
link |
01:55:45.360
I'm gonna fucking win the Olympics.
link |
01:55:47.240
I'm the best in the world.
link |
01:55:50.320
I never in my right mind thought,
link |
01:55:55.040
oh, I'm gonna win a medal.
link |
01:55:56.880
Like that never crossed my mind.
link |
01:56:01.200
So it's like, I would have rather him just fucking beat me.
link |
01:56:08.640
Because then I lost.
link |
01:56:11.080
So here the referees, as many people thought,
link |
01:56:15.480
robbed you of a victory,
link |
01:56:16.920
but it was also a really close battle.
link |
01:56:18.600
Again, with many of the elements of frustration as 2008
link |
01:56:22.880
in terms of strategically and gripping wise.
link |
01:56:25.360
And it was just a fascinating battle that went to overtime.
link |
01:56:28.720
So can you set the context?
link |
01:56:30.760
So what did the bracket look like?
link |
01:56:33.400
Who were the players here?
link |
01:56:35.960
Who did you beat leading up to this match?
link |
01:56:38.720
As you walk onto the mat, what happened the hours before?
link |
01:56:43.640
As you're standing there.
link |
01:56:44.960
How bad is it when two people are standing like this?
link |
01:56:48.560
And yeah.
link |
01:56:50.160
That fucking guy, man.
link |
01:56:52.360
But this bracket was really interesting
link |
01:56:57.360
if you look at like the backstory of 81 kilos,
link |
01:57:00.360
like leading up to the Olympics, right?
link |
01:57:03.000
Because at this point in time,
link |
01:57:05.760
I was inside the top 10 at all times,
link |
01:57:09.960
eight, seven, five, four, sixes.
link |
01:57:14.160
I fell out of there sometimes due to injuries,
link |
01:57:16.040
but I always climbed back in.
link |
01:57:18.480
There was another guy from Azerbaijan
link |
01:57:23.760
that was the Olympic champion at 73 kilos in 2008.
link |
01:57:28.280
And the entire division got rocked by match one
link |
01:57:33.280
because his first match was with Antoine Valus Fortier
link |
01:57:39.400
of Canada.
link |
01:57:41.320
And everybody who saw the draw come out was like,
link |
01:57:45.520
the Azerbaijanis gonna win it.
link |
01:57:47.680
He's the former Olympic champion.
link |
01:57:49.840
He's pretty much won most of the major events,
link |
01:57:52.400
including at 90 kilos, because he just had smooth judo.
link |
01:57:56.920
And match one rolls around, match two rolls around.
link |
01:58:01.920
Antoine's in the shoot and he's looking around
link |
01:58:05.240
and he's like, the Azerbaijanis not here.
link |
01:58:09.040
Well, where is he?
link |
01:58:10.640
No joke, he runs into the venue a match before,
link |
01:58:16.400
throws his gi on and runs onto the Olympic platform.
link |
01:58:20.760
Loses to the Canadian
link |
01:58:22.160
in like a three minute golden score battle.
link |
01:58:26.360
So do you think he warmed up?
link |
01:58:28.400
Didn't, he ran.
link |
01:58:29.320
He literally ran into the venue,
link |
01:58:31.880
threw his gi on and ran out, did no judo.
link |
01:58:35.840
And there you see Antoine losing in the quarters.
link |
01:58:40.760
So how good was Antoine?
link |
01:58:42.840
At this point in time, this is,
link |
01:58:45.200
I believe his first international medal
link |
01:58:48.400
was the Olympic games.
link |
01:58:50.840
So I don't think he'd ever meddled in Paris.
link |
01:58:53.960
He went into this bracket unranked,
link |
01:58:57.200
beating the ranked guy first round because he,
link |
01:59:00.840
I don't know if he missed the bus.
link |
01:59:02.960
I don't know if he was off his cycle and planned on losing
link |
01:59:06.800
cause he didn't want to test positive.
link |
01:59:08.360
I don't know.
link |
01:59:09.600
There's a lot of like questionable things out there
link |
01:59:12.800
that could have potentially caused him to,
link |
01:59:17.400
run onto the Olympic platform for match one.
link |
01:59:21.720
But it catapulted Antoine into like a belief
link |
01:59:26.720
that like, I beat the seated guy, I'm ready.
link |
01:59:31.960
And that was like a turning point in the Canadian's career
link |
01:59:34.560
just as a whole, right?
link |
01:59:37.560
That's that everybody has a defining moment.
link |
01:59:40.960
Like mine was when I beat Bischoff in Dusseldorf
link |
01:59:45.040
at the grand prix for Germany after 2008, right?
link |
01:59:49.800
I beat the Olympic champion in, on his home soil
link |
01:59:53.240
to go win the entire tournament.
link |
01:59:55.480
So we all have like those moments.
link |
01:59:57.960
It's just when it happens at the games,
link |
02:00:00.120
it throws the bracket like into a tailspin.
link |
02:00:02.920
Cause typically you'd know like who's going to beat who,
link |
02:00:05.640
where it's going to happen.
link |
02:00:07.680
And when you look at my quarter final against the Brazilian,
link |
02:00:11.640
what most people don't know is I was,
link |
02:00:14.120
I was so thankful I had that match.
link |
02:00:16.480
Most people would never in a million years be like,
link |
02:00:19.920
I want to fight the world number one at the Olympic games.
link |
02:00:22.280
That's what I want to do.
link |
02:00:23.680
I want to be the eighth seed fighting the world number one
link |
02:00:25.880
cause I'm going to win.
link |
02:00:27.960
I was pissed off at him.
link |
02:00:29.800
I was so angry because we,
link |
02:00:34.080
we were at the Pan Am's I think the year before
link |
02:00:37.800
and there was a team tournament and I wanted to fight him.
link |
02:00:40.300
I had lost the quarters to a Cuban, I think.
link |
02:00:46.240
In like the first gripping exchange,
link |
02:00:47.880
he threw me with a drop sale out of nowhere.
link |
02:00:50.280
I was pissed.
link |
02:00:51.400
So I wanted my hands on the Brazilian and the team match.
link |
02:00:55.040
Well, the Brazilian team is warming up.
link |
02:00:57.600
So I walk up to him, no joke.
link |
02:00:59.080
I walked up to him and I go, you're fighting.
link |
02:01:01.520
And he goes, not today.
link |
02:01:03.780
And I went, are you fucking kidding me?
link |
02:01:06.140
I warmed up.
link |
02:01:06.980
I taped up that you're the only fucking guy I want to fight
link |
02:01:09.440
and you're going to fucking sit in the stands
link |
02:01:10.680
and read a goddamn book.
link |
02:01:12.680
I was so angry.
link |
02:01:13.680
I carried that anger cause I never fought him until this day.
link |
02:01:17.120
I was fucking pissed.
link |
02:01:18.240
I was ready to beat him.
link |
02:01:19.780
That's right, I forgot he was the world number one.
link |
02:01:24.960
Cause I remember being really excited at that match.
link |
02:01:27.680
How did you beat him?
link |
02:01:28.720
I threw him with two hands on the same side, collar,
link |
02:01:31.880
like drop sale.
link |
02:01:32.720
I cross gripped, I yanked him behind me and I threw him.
link |
02:01:35.640
Epon?
link |
02:01:36.480
Wazari.
link |
02:01:37.300
And then the match ended 30 seconds later.
link |
02:01:41.620
I was pumped.
link |
02:01:42.820
So fucking angry.
link |
02:01:43.660
I thought, okay, if I'm remembering correctly,
link |
02:01:46.320
I thought, okay, this guy might actually win gold.
link |
02:01:51.900
That's what made, for me as a spectator,
link |
02:01:55.160
remembering now the next match that much more like painful.
link |
02:02:00.440
And then the fans of judo that really followed the sport,
link |
02:02:05.440
the stats, when you look at the games and my draws,
link |
02:02:08.680
I had the worst possible draw
link |
02:02:09.760
as you ever could have imagined.
link |
02:02:11.560
At both London and Rio, I fought the world number one
link |
02:02:15.120
to get to the final or into the semis or past the semis.
link |
02:02:19.100
And everybody I fought in the draw
link |
02:02:22.420
either beat me the last time we fought
link |
02:02:24.640
or I had never fought before.
link |
02:02:27.000
So I always held a loss going onto the mat
link |
02:02:29.320
at the Olympic games.
link |
02:02:30.240
How'd you feel about that, by the way?
link |
02:02:31.600
Like what were your feelings
link |
02:02:32.920
about facing the Brazilian first?
link |
02:02:35.360
I was so excited.
link |
02:02:36.560
Well, that was match three.
link |
02:02:38.860
In London, I fought the Slovenian guy first round
link |
02:02:41.360
who beat me.
link |
02:02:44.220
Where'd he beat me?
link |
02:02:45.060
Was it the Worlds?
link |
02:02:46.280
Might've been the Worlds.
link |
02:02:47.640
And then, Church's Ville, I fought in the second round
link |
02:02:50.400
who threw me for Wazari in Japan.
link |
02:02:54.800
And then, Leandro, who I don't think I ever fought,
link |
02:02:58.160
who was world number one.
link |
02:02:59.400
That avoided fighting me at the team tournament.
link |
02:03:02.240
But I mean, every single Olympics you've fought
link |
02:03:04.720
and you really stepped up.
link |
02:03:06.040
It's the only tournament I've ever prepped for.
link |
02:03:09.040
Mentally and physically and just the whole thing?
link |
02:03:11.100
Yeah.
link |
02:03:11.940
We never trained through this tournament
link |
02:03:14.280
like we did for the others.
link |
02:03:15.520
Or I would go into it injured.
link |
02:03:18.480
All right, well, let's talk about,
link |
02:03:19.400
you're standing there next to the German.
link |
02:03:24.120
He looked always smaller than you,
link |
02:03:26.360
but you said like strong.
link |
02:03:28.260
Yeah.
link |
02:03:30.400
So what are you feeling now, Jimmy Pedro behind you?
link |
02:03:33.720
I was fucking ready to take his head off.
link |
02:03:35.520
Did you have an idea of what you're gonna do?
link |
02:03:38.920
Did you try to, do you're thinking of winning by Ypon?
link |
02:03:41.800
Were you thinking like going for big throws,
link |
02:03:44.040
or take him in deep waters, outgrip him?
link |
02:03:47.280
What were you thinking?
link |
02:03:48.160
We were about to have a battle
link |
02:03:50.120
and I wasn't gonna throw him until he broke mentally.
link |
02:03:55.160
Okay.
link |
02:03:56.280
That was, there was no like,
link |
02:03:59.180
oh, this is gonna be a clean throw.
link |
02:04:00.980
That was never, that was never the thought process.
link |
02:04:05.720
So here, you know there's going to be a lot of gripping.
link |
02:04:10.720
So we're seeing a shit ton of gripping.
link |
02:04:14.080
And right here, he throws it, bang, close fisted.
link |
02:04:20.100
You got a lot of adrenaline.
link |
02:04:21.740
You seem calm.
link |
02:04:22.580
I'm pissed.
link |
02:04:23.420
You're pissed.
link |
02:04:24.260
Like, you don't look serious, you just look like.
link |
02:04:26.180
I'm looking at the ref like,
link |
02:04:27.780
cause he keeps telling me to get up.
link |
02:04:28.700
I'm like, I have blood running down my face.
link |
02:04:32.060
I go.
link |
02:04:33.180
Okay.
link |
02:04:34.680
Here, there's blood.
link |
02:04:36.140
See, and he's like, oh yeah, go fix it.
link |
02:04:37.980
And that's on your eyebrow somewhere?
link |
02:04:39.980
Yeah, he split it just underneath it.
link |
02:04:42.260
So you split your eyebrow.
link |
02:04:43.380
And so in judo, they don't, they're allergic to blood,
link |
02:04:46.820
probably for a good reason.
link |
02:04:47.900
But they, so now you have to try to figure out
link |
02:04:51.180
how to tape that up.
link |
02:04:53.420
Yep.
link |
02:04:54.300
Which already sets up one of the most bad ass
link |
02:04:58.140
looks in judo history.
link |
02:05:00.660
First 15 seconds, busted my eye open.
link |
02:05:04.140
Was that getting in the way of your eyesight at all or no?
link |
02:05:06.380
No.
link |
02:05:07.220
Damn, he looks good at gripping.
link |
02:05:10.740
How difficult is it to get a grip on that guy?
link |
02:05:12.940
Very.
link |
02:05:14.740
Like I'm struggling just to get my hand in the collar
link |
02:05:16.660
and he wasn't even blocking it.
link |
02:05:18.220
Is he being cagey?
link |
02:05:19.820
Remember like, is he interested in offense?
link |
02:05:22.540
Nope.
link |
02:05:23.380
He's a very cagey, you know, methodical player.
link |
02:05:27.300
Like he, he never opens himself up.
link |
02:05:30.300
Yeah.
link |
02:05:31.900
There you go.
link |
02:05:32.740
You grabbed the leg as part of a combination.
link |
02:05:34.500
Yep.
link |
02:05:35.340
And people have told me that he's actually very good
link |
02:05:38.740
at throwing people.
link |
02:05:39.820
He just doesn't.
link |
02:05:41.220
So, but he just doesn't show it at these.
link |
02:05:43.380
Nope.
link |
02:05:44.220
Cause he, he doesn't care how he wins.
link |
02:05:46.660
He cares that he wins.
link |
02:05:48.340
Yeah.
link |
02:05:49.180
Which makes him very difficult to beat.
link |
02:05:51.940
Cause he knows when you've strategized to do that,
link |
02:05:55.340
where you look at the rule set and you develop a plan
link |
02:05:57.740
to get through the matches,
link |
02:05:59.460
then you've really got to figure out a way
link |
02:06:01.940
to get that person off that game plan.
link |
02:06:04.540
You know, whether you get ahead by a penalty or something.
link |
02:06:08.740
Right there.
link |
02:06:10.260
Like, he wouldn't give me the sleeve,
link |
02:06:13.820
so I grabbed all of his fingers.
link |
02:06:15.860
Oh, nice.
link |
02:06:17.180
In which I open like, like this way or?
link |
02:06:21.220
I grabbed them the other way and I started lifting them.
link |
02:06:23.940
Ah, yeah.
link |
02:06:24.780
Like I start, nice.
link |
02:06:25.620
Oh, like perfect.
link |
02:06:26.460
Reverse play and mercy.
link |
02:06:27.300
Like this.
link |
02:06:28.140
Yeah.
link |
02:06:28.980
Oh, this is great.
link |
02:06:30.540
Cause he wouldn't give me the sleeve
link |
02:06:31.660
and I needed an attack.
link |
02:06:33.820
And then I'm like, okay, I can't hold onto this forever
link |
02:06:36.060
cause that judge is going to see it.
link |
02:06:37.180
So let me just do a quick throw here
link |
02:06:38.700
while I'm using the fingers in the mercy grip.
link |
02:06:40.500
You're holding on.
link |
02:06:41.580
Yeah.
link |
02:06:42.420
And then I just sit out.
link |
02:06:43.780
Yeah.
link |
02:06:46.860
And then he goes to get up and I go to get on top
link |
02:06:49.740
and right here.
link |
02:06:51.580
Nice.
link |
02:06:52.580
That elbow.
link |
02:06:53.420
You get him?
link |
02:06:54.260
Oh, you got him.
link |
02:06:55.100
Yeah, it looks like I elbow him.
link |
02:06:57.340
Did you do it kind of?
link |
02:06:58.500
No, I didn't.
link |
02:07:00.020
At the time, I never knew this happened
link |
02:07:02.660
until after I watched this like three or four years later.
link |
02:07:06.220
Didn't even know, I didn't even feel it.
link |
02:07:08.660
Look at that.
link |
02:07:09.500
So he's legitimately angry here.
link |
02:07:10.940
Yeah, he's angry.
link |
02:07:13.220
And of course you can't, you can't move.
link |
02:07:15.660
Why would you move?
link |
02:07:16.740
Look at this.
link |
02:07:17.580
This moment right there is gold.
link |
02:07:19.100
If you're not watching this on video, you're missing out.
link |
02:07:21.380
You never get this in judo.
link |
02:07:23.100
No, I don't know if that's ever happened.
link |
02:07:25.420
That little face off.
link |
02:07:26.900
Especially on a stage like this.
link |
02:07:29.100
The reference.
link |
02:07:30.260
And then he brings us in to like talk to us
link |
02:07:32.180
and he's like, hey, we're good, right?
link |
02:07:33.780
Like, you guys aren't about to do
link |
02:07:34.860
what I think you're about to do.
link |
02:07:38.060
And he's like, hey, shake hands again.
link |
02:07:39.900
Cause the first time we did it, that wasn't good enough.
link |
02:07:41.860
Well, you gotta do it again.
link |
02:07:45.580
The heartbreaking part about this
link |
02:07:47.380
and why the IJF switched it to an unlimited golden score.
link |
02:07:51.260
Because we fought five minutes
link |
02:07:54.860
through the entire normal part of the match.
link |
02:07:57.660
And then we did the entire overtime period of three minutes.
link |
02:08:01.980
Not one penalty was given.
link |
02:08:04.340
No gripping infractions, no false attacks,
link |
02:08:07.060
like no stallings.
link |
02:08:08.140
That's great.
link |
02:08:08.980
Nobody was really backing up.
link |
02:08:10.340
Yep.
link |
02:08:11.180
I mean, he was, you know.
link |
02:08:12.020
So what was Jimmy telling you here?
link |
02:08:14.780
Or was he talking to you at all?
link |
02:08:16.500
He's not allowed to talk during medical things
link |
02:08:19.500
and my nose is now broken.
link |
02:08:21.860
But he's also, oh, the nose is broken.
link |
02:08:23.860
From what?
link |
02:08:25.060
I caught an elbow from him.
link |
02:08:28.340
Glad his face is clean.
link |
02:08:29.420
That's fun.
link |
02:08:30.900
And right here, I was pissed.
link |
02:08:32.700
I was so angry at the medic
link |
02:08:34.660
because he's fumbling around and I'm like,
link |
02:08:36.420
my whole plan is to break the German mentally.
link |
02:08:40.180
You gotta hurry up with the tape, man.
link |
02:08:42.380
He's supposed to be tired.
link |
02:08:43.620
He's not supposed to be resting.
link |
02:08:46.940
Is Jimmy yelling here?
link |
02:08:48.220
He can't.
link |
02:08:49.340
No, not here, not here, but during the match.
link |
02:08:52.380
And you can see I just take it from him
link |
02:08:53.780
and I'm like, give it to me.
link |
02:08:54.780
I'm gonna do it myself.
link |
02:08:55.740
Get out of here.
link |
02:08:58.380
How scared is the medic?
link |
02:09:00.740
He's like, this guy's gonna kill me.
link |
02:09:01.580
He can't even tear the tape.
link |
02:09:03.220
Look how nervous he is.
link |
02:09:06.580
We made fun of him for this so much throughout the years.
link |
02:09:10.900
Still do to this day.
link |
02:09:12.380
All right, here we go.
link |
02:09:13.300
Oh, you look great getting geared up.
link |
02:09:15.780
Can't really see, don't care.
link |
02:09:17.820
Was there some outcome in your mind
link |
02:09:19.780
that you could possibly beat him on the ground
link |
02:09:21.300
with a submission or a pin?
link |
02:09:22.620
You knew you were gonna have to throw him.
link |
02:09:24.260
I knew I was gonna have to.
link |
02:09:26.020
If I was gonna throw him or armbar him
link |
02:09:29.020
or pin him, whatever the case may be,
link |
02:09:31.860
it was gonna be his mental like, I'm just tired of this.
link |
02:09:37.260
He's too cagey of a player.
link |
02:09:38.660
He's too experienced.
link |
02:09:41.380
He has to mentally make that choice to give that inch.
link |
02:09:44.780
And then you just have to be ready to take it.
link |
02:09:47.140
So I was just waiting for it.
link |
02:09:50.140
And so now this is four minutes in, one minute left.
link |
02:09:53.300
Yeah.
link |
02:09:54.140
Oh, is that in your game plan two potentials
link |
02:09:57.700
like sumi gaeshi, like the sacrifice throws to him?
link |
02:10:01.180
Cause the whole point of that technique
link |
02:10:03.420
and the sacrifice throws wasn't
link |
02:10:04.940
because I thought I was gonna throw him,
link |
02:10:07.180
but it disrupts the pattern enough
link |
02:10:10.060
to like get him to make a potential mistake.
link |
02:10:14.100
Like see, he should have gotten Ashido there.
link |
02:10:16.700
Hands in the face.
link |
02:10:18.300
But again, that's just part of judo.
link |
02:10:20.220
Yeah.
link |
02:10:21.300
He poked me in the elbow.
link |
02:10:23.740
This is a rough match.
link |
02:10:25.340
Does he act at all or no?
link |
02:10:27.700
Like, was he acting frustrated or anything like that?
link |
02:10:30.060
It was all like, he's like acting for the ref.
link |
02:10:33.380
You know what I mean?
link |
02:10:34.220
Like, oh, that, all that kind of stuff.
link |
02:10:35.860
You're just going in hard, nonstop,
link |
02:10:39.340
like angry, aggressive, feeling cardio here at all.
link |
02:10:43.620
Like.
link |
02:10:44.460
I don't, I didn't get tired during this.
link |
02:10:46.940
And then just always pressing for.
link |
02:10:48.700
Time runs out.
link |
02:10:50.220
Now we're into golden score.
link |
02:10:51.820
12 minutes and 38 seconds later.
link |
02:10:54.580
Yeah, you think about every judo exchange, right?
link |
02:10:56.820
Every time we grip up, every time we attack,
link |
02:10:59.300
sometimes it can take longer to get back to the line
link |
02:11:01.380
than the entire exchange.
link |
02:11:02.660
Yeah.
link |
02:11:03.700
So the more aggression, the more exchanges you have,
link |
02:11:06.100
the longer the time stretches.
link |
02:11:09.580
Then here, the six seconds left in golden score,
link |
02:11:13.420
your tape is now yellow and red
link |
02:11:20.260
with sweat and blood, literally, and time is out.
link |
02:11:23.220
Now, what are you thinking here?
link |
02:11:24.340
Do you think you won the match?
link |
02:11:26.860
I thought I won the match a minute ago.
link |
02:11:30.900
I remember thinking to myself,
link |
02:11:32.380
like if this goes to the flags, I won.
link |
02:11:36.460
No doubt in my mind.
link |
02:11:39.500
Because I felt like the whole time,
link |
02:11:42.500
like I was going to him, right?
link |
02:11:45.260
He was never coming at me.
link |
02:11:47.940
Yeah, that's the way it felt.
link |
02:11:49.900
And like, that's the way it felt body language wise,
link |
02:11:52.940
just the intensity, how fast you're moving towards him.
link |
02:11:55.820
You're constantly going for throws.
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02:12:00.820
Now, if you want to rewind that,
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02:12:02.300
we can talk about the whole,
link |
02:12:03.660
because it's a part of this clip.
link |
02:12:05.020
So wait a minute, they all went blue.
link |
02:12:08.420
They all did.
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02:12:09.260
So in judo, there's three referees,
link |
02:12:12.140
two on the side, one in the center,
link |
02:12:13.780
and they all vote on who won.
link |
02:12:14.620
And now let's pause it right there.
link |
02:12:16.180
Now, the way this is supposed to work,
link |
02:12:18.260
they raise their flags, they do like a one, two count,
link |
02:12:21.900
and then on three, they all raise it together.
link |
02:12:24.900
Now, as a little pretext to this entire match,
link |
02:12:28.260
up until this point, not one match at the Olympic Games
link |
02:12:32.420
has ever been a split decision.
link |
02:12:34.820
Meaning out of three people,
link |
02:12:37.460
not one of them voted against the other group members.
link |
02:12:41.340
So they were all unified blue or all unified white.
link |
02:12:44.580
Yeah.
link |
02:12:45.420
Right?
link |
02:12:46.260
Which is statistically difficult to imagine.
link |
02:12:49.260
Yes.
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02:12:50.660
It's almost like they had a referee meeting and said,
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02:12:53.940
it's better for the Olympics.
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02:12:55.740
To never have a split.
link |
02:12:56.980
Yeah.
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02:12:58.260
Okay.
link |
02:13:00.020
So the question becomes,
link |
02:13:02.820
if you would click that frame by frame, right?
link |
02:13:08.100
So right now we have all the refs with their flags out
link |
02:13:11.740
and then click that.
link |
02:13:12.940
So the middle guy starts.
link |
02:13:15.340
He is all the way up.
link |
02:13:17.020
All the way up.
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02:13:17.860
The other side judges haven't moved.
link |
02:13:20.260
We now have one side ref all the way up.
link |
02:13:23.620
Then we have a third side ref all the way up.
link |
02:13:28.540
Yeah.
link |
02:13:29.380
So there's a time point
link |
02:13:31.540
when the middle guy has the flag all the way up.
link |
02:13:33.700
If not 80, 90% of the way there.
link |
02:13:35.860
Yeah.
link |
02:13:36.700
Then the other one does.
link |
02:13:37.860
And then the third one goes.
link |
02:13:40.460
So now the question becomes who really,
link |
02:13:44.740
like did the outside refs really have an opinion?
link |
02:13:47.260
Or were they told to wait for the center one to start
link |
02:13:54.460
and then lift whatever flag the center ref picked?
link |
02:13:59.420
Yeah.
link |
02:14:00.260
This is very unfortunate.
link |
02:14:01.980
It's very, honestly, it's very possible
link |
02:14:03.700
that they had this meeting.
link |
02:14:05.020
This is the problem with the Olympics.
link |
02:14:09.980
They sometimes, it's also the problem in the Soviet Union
link |
02:14:13.500
with communism.
link |
02:14:14.340
They think the committee knows what's good for the people
link |
02:14:17.900
and so on.
link |
02:14:18.740
So they decide universally
link |
02:14:20.740
as opposed to letting the magic of the Olympics
link |
02:14:24.020
be what it is.
link |
02:14:25.380
But nevertheless, in this case,
link |
02:14:28.540
the center ref decided blue.
link |
02:14:31.220
Like what do you think?
link |
02:14:33.060
Do you think it's just a shitty call?
link |
02:14:34.820
Or like?
link |
02:14:36.580
He has the right to pick.
link |
02:14:38.420
But the problem is the other two I don't think did.
link |
02:14:43.420
And so when you do this frame by frame again,
link |
02:14:48.100
I can see from my own perspective two of the refs.
link |
02:14:54.300
And I see them both blue.
link |
02:14:55.900
So when you fast forward that a little bit
link |
02:14:59.380
to get to all the flags, I see the two go blue.
link |
02:15:03.060
And I go, I look over and I look at the other guy
link |
02:15:06.180
and I'm like, really?
link |
02:15:08.060
All three?
link |
02:15:10.700
I fought for eight minutes and I can't even get a vote.
link |
02:15:13.580
I didn't even get a penalty.
link |
02:15:15.820
I can't even get a vote.
link |
02:15:17.740
And that's when I broke.
link |
02:15:21.460
I like, oh, I couldn't believe it.
link |
02:15:25.980
And I'm not gonna lie, he looked shocked.
link |
02:15:32.660
And here you're on your knees.
link |
02:15:34.780
You're crying.
link |
02:15:35.620
Literally crying.
link |
02:15:36.700
This is it.
link |
02:15:37.540
Yeah.
link |
02:15:38.380
But I think it's the end.
link |
02:15:39.220
That was such an amazing match.
link |
02:15:40.060
It was such a war.
link |
02:15:42.980
I mean, both people can't believe what happened.
link |
02:15:45.500
I know.
link |
02:15:46.340
That's the, and like, honestly,
link |
02:15:48.220
I wish we had the rules that we do today,
link |
02:15:50.700
as far as the unlimited golden score,
link |
02:15:53.020
because I would have loved to have seen
link |
02:15:56.420
what would have happened.
link |
02:15:57.580
What was Jimmy saying here to you?
link |
02:15:59.460
I mean, I guess there's nothing to say.
link |
02:16:03.260
Yeah.
link |
02:16:04.100
He was kind of apologizing for the way
link |
02:16:06.980
the scores went.
link |
02:16:11.260
Cause he knows how badly you want it.
link |
02:16:13.220
He saw the match.
link |
02:16:14.660
And he felt I deserved to win it.
link |
02:16:16.940
Based on like, you know, what happened.
link |
02:16:19.260
But he probably with all his experience
link |
02:16:21.060
knows that this is what the Olympics are about.
link |
02:16:24.340
The refs sometimes.
link |
02:16:26.060
I mean, that's the magic of it, man.
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