back to indexTravis Stevens: Judo, Olympics, and Mental Toughness | Lex Fridman Podcast #223
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The following is a conversation with Travis Stevens,
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2016 Olympic silver medalist in Judo
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and one of the greatest American Judo ever.
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But his story is inspiring,
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not because of that Olympic medal,
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but because of the decades of injury, hardship,
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incredible battles against the best in the world,
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wrapping up in close heartbreaking losses
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at the 2008 and 2012 games,
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all of which eventually led to that very silver medal
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As we talk about in the podcast,
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Travis is also someone who's largely responsible
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for me getting into Judo,
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for which I will forever be grateful.
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He also happens to be now my Judo coach and mentor.
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I'll release a video of Travis and I
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doing some Judo in a few days.
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To support this podcast,
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please check out our sponsors in the description.
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As a side note, let me say a few words
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that I've written down about the Olympic games
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and the International Olympics Committee.
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I'm visiting family as the T shirt,
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but I had to pull away to write and to say these words
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because this very video was taken down by YouTube
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as per the request of the IOC.
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You know it's serious when a Russian takes time away
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from family, food and drink.
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I'm heartbroken to see continued incompetence,
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greed and corruption on the part of the IOC
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in failing to do as the Olympic charter states,
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to quote, ensure the fullest coverage
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and the widest possible audience in the world
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for the Olympic games, end quote.
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I want to give you two facts.
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First, they do not make most of the videos of the games
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available for replay anywhere that is accessible,
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searchable and discoverable,
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whether funded by ads or by subscriptions.
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For example, on YouTube or their own service,
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it is not available anywhere.
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Second, in the most absurd violation of the Olympic charter,
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they've uploaded all of the videos of the 2012, 2016
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and the 2020 slash 21 Olympics to YouTube.
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And they set all of these videos to private.
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This results in a situation like my four hour conversation
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that you're watching now with Travis Stevens
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being taken down due to us including a few seconds
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of a small video overlay of Travis's epic match
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against Ole Bischoff in 2012.
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This is done automatically as per the request of the IOC.
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I have the video due to having screen recorded it from 2012.
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Here you have Travis Stevens, an Olympic silver medalist,
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someone who spent his entire life overcoming injuries,
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losses, hard weight cuts, periods of no financial
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or psychological support culminating
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in the biggest heartbreak of his career in this one match.
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And this match is available nowhere online,
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not for free, not for $1 million.
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Our showing short clips of it results in the IOC
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taking it down, not demonetizing it,
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taking it down, blocking it.
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The IOC silences this amazing story of Travis Stevens
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of heartbreak that eventually led to triumph.
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And there are thousands of stories like it,
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stories that are supposed to inspire the world.
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To me and to billions of others,
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the Olympic games give a chance to celebrate
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and to be inspired by the greatest stories
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of human flourishing in the face of hardship
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and incredibly long odds or dominance
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in the pursuit of perfection
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at levels previously thought to be impossible.
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The Olympic games inspire kids like me to dream
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and to work hard to achieve in our own lives
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the same moments of magic and greatness,
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small or big, that the Olympic games reveal.
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I believe the members of the IOC are good people,
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but people who forgot the dream,
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the fire that was sparked and burned in their hearts
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when they first saw the Olympics as kids.
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They've allowed the gradual corruption
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of their own human spirit
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and thereby have robbed the world of this very fire,
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the fire of the Olympic torch,
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the fire that ought to burn in the eyes and hearts of kids
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watching the Olympics today,
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daring to dream, daring to be great.
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Please, please do better.
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The world needs you, the world needs the Olympic games.
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This is the Lux Friedman podcast
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and here's my conversation with Travis Stevens.
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Judo is a martial arts, a sport,
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a set of techniques, ideas, and philosophies.
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Can we start by maybe you giving a big picture overview
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of what is Judo to somebody who's like outside
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the whole spectrum of grappling sports?
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Yeah, Judo was originated in Japan
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that was used as a police tactic for self defense
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and subduing people.
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It's the art of being able to throw somebody to the ground
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and hold and control the situation.
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I think it's pretty much evolved since then though.
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You know, it's as you include like the sport aspect of it,
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it's grown to be something more and more dynamic
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and it's kind of gotten away from that.
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So the basics is people wear something called a gi,
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which I think nicely mimics like outdoor clothing,
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like a jacket and they start on the feet
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and they get to grip each other
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and the scoring works by the more badass the throw is,
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the more points you get,
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and if you throw the person big and hard on their back,
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you win the match and it's over and that's called an Ippon.
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Yeah, which is equivalent to a knockout.
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So I guess there's no knockdowns in Judo.
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We don't count those.
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They gotta hit their back and they gotta hit it with force.
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And so there's a huge incentive for the big throws.
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And there's also the drama of somebody catching you off guard
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with a surprise big throw and it's over.
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Yep, there's two ways of losing really.
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There's the, I saw this coming, right?
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Like you just, you see it, but you can't stop it.
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And those ones tend to be the ones you can live with.
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The ones that are like really hard to live with
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are the ones you never saw coming, right?
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Cause that just shows that that person
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has really outclassed you.
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Right, so there's like a set of, a small set of throws.
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Maybe we can go through them that are like,
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you saw it coming, but you couldn't do anything about it.
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And then there's the set of throws
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that are more like surprises.
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So first of all, the counters,
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or if you fake one thing and go the other way,
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then that's a surprise and it's like, oh shit.
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You off balance the person because they think
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you're going one way and then you go the other way.
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And then there's this, oh shit moment.
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All of a sudden your back is just slammed on the ground.
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One of the ones, I mean, you're good at many throws,
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but one of them is a, that I think reveals
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the beauty of judo is the foot sweep.
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There's something about the off balance and the timing
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that if you catch them right, all of a sudden,
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it's like I had the same feeling when I went skydiving,
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like all of a sudden the ground is not under you anymore.
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Yeah, and you just, you go weightlessness
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for like a split second and you realize
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you've lost like all control of your limbs.
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Like it's like zero gravity, right?
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Like you just, you can't turn, you can't rotate,
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you can't do much of anything.
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And then before you know it, you've hit the floor.
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It's a cool feeling when you get thrown
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because you hope to do the same thing to another person.
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It's like, you just hit the ground hard
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because it's not, you didn't see it coming.
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It wasn't a big throw that got loaded up.
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It's like all of a sudden the surprise.
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And then like this, like feeling your back just slams
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and there's like the air is up.
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Yeah, and the worst is when you get hit twice
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with one throw, right?
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Because sometimes like the guy throwing you
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didn't expect you to leave either.
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So you hit and then that guy comes down
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like a second and a half later and it's like, boom, boom.
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And then the wind is just gone from you.
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Those are the worst.
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And then there's the disappointment.
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Like then the intellectual, the cognitive part comes in
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where you're like, oh shit, I just lost.
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And you don't have like a connection to why, right?
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It's almost like you've just,
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like you didn't literally get a concussion.
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Like you understand and remember everything,
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but you can't figure out how this just happened, right?
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Those are the tough ones to deal with.
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Actually, have you had moments like that
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where you don't understand how it happened?
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You have to watch footage to understand what happened?
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Even when you watch it, you're just like, I don't get it.
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Like, why wasn't I in a position to stop this?
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It makes zero sense.
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Conceptually, when you watch it, you're like,
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I understand how to play defense.
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I understand, it looks like I'm in a defensive position,
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but at the end of the day, I still got thrown.
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Yeah, you were talking about, what is it, a 2008 match.
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You have a non traditional gripping style.
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Is that accurate to say?
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And then you were going against another right handed player
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and then there was some kind of fake that he did
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and then he caught you.
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Can you describe the throw he caught you with?
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He caught me with a drop sale,
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but he kind of like, we were engaged.
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We were looking at each other
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and we were kind of at like a stalemate, right?
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He couldn't really advance, I couldn't really advance.
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And he kind of just let his gaze like wander off
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to the right, like he was looking at something.
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And then I kind of like, what's over there?
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And then I got thrown and it's like.
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So first of all, for people who don't know,
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Seio's Seinagi drop means when you drop to your knees
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and Seinagi is one of the fundamental throws of Judo.
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There's just a handful, but does that actually ever work?
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I always wondered that about like boxing or Judo.
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Does the head movement of the person work?
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Cause we're still like kind of dogs at heart.
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If you look somewhere with a dog,
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the dog is going to look that direction as well.
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Does that actually work ever?
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It does, but on a greater sense,
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what you try to do is not necessarily get
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like a physical reaction of a look,
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but a lull of security where like,
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they've almost like relaxed for that split second
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because you've lured them into like a sense of comfort.
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And then that's when you can strike.
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So you have this, speaking of Seinagi,
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you have this gigantic standing Seinagi.
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And you have a specific grip.
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One of our challenges is there's a large number of people
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that listen to the audio version of this.
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So we're gonna have to try to describe some of this stuff.
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I'll do my best to try to describe with words,
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but you have, you grip with your left hand
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on the lapel of the jacket or like that area.
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And there's kind of a lean into the person.
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And I suppose, is there a feeling of a lull there
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that you're trying to get to where you're just,
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it feels like you're both calmly dancing
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before you turn your hips and go in for the throw?
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I'm actually trying to create a sense of weightlessness
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for my lead leg, which would be my right leg.
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And a sense of resistance from my partner.
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So aren't you both kind of leaning into each other?
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And it creates like an A frame.
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But when the A frame is held together at the top half,
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which would be my left hand and their right hand
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posted on each other's chest,
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it means our legs are free to move
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and our hips are free to move.
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And they're not gonna feel your leg move.
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Because of the weightlessness.
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And is there a feeling like, for them,
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is there a feeling like nothing bad can happen here?
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We're all relaxed, everything's fine?
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And then they're standing off at a funny angle
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and before they know it, I've spun
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and my back is on their chest and they can't go anywhere.
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How did you first develop that throw?
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So for people, it's called Ippon Seinagi,
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which means your right hand goes under their armpit area.
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And that's like a vice that connects you to them.
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And then they go on for the ride.
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The interesting thing with the standing one
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is as opposed to drop Seinagi version,
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the drop Seinagi, you kind of drop under them.
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And because there's a vice,
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they're like pulled under and like over.
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With the standing one, I suppose there's some similar physics,
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but you're kind of loading them onto your hip.
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And so they're in the air while you're standing still.
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There's a sense in which they're like,
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you're lifting them above where they started.
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That's how you get the really big air.
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If obviously, if everything is right.
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So how did you first develop that?
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How did you first?
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I first learned just learning like the very basics
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of the throw, you know, foot placement,
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all that kind of stuff.
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And then, you know, like anything, the basics are nice,
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but once you get good at the basics,
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it's very easy to stop,
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but it gives you a good like fundamental platform
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to learn off of and to expand off of.
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And then I expanded when I first started watching Koga,
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the new wind, right?
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Cause he's the one that first like introduced
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that split hip style Seinagi that I do.
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Once I learned that one,
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I built about eight different variations of Seio
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off that one start position.
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That way I could, regardless of your defense,
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I had an answer for a throw.
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So why that one though?
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Why, can you describe love to me, Travis Stevens?
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Why'd you fall in love with that throw in particular?
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It was really a sense of, you know,
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one of my shortcomings as a kid, like,
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I hate leg day in the gym.
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I hate it with a passion.
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I, if you asked me to do a squat, I'll get it done,
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but I will bitch and moan every step of the way.
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I remember one time I was at the gym with my trainer
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and he goes, okay, we're going to do front squats.
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And I want you to put 225 on the bar.
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And I was like, I can't do that.
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And he was like, what do you mean you can't do that?
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And I go, I physically, I can't do that.
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And he was like, are you serious?
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So he's, he didn't believe me.
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We put 225 on the bar and I bottomed out.
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And then he was like, okay, let's go down to 185.
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And I was like, I can't do that.
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I just, that's not happening.
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You probably could, strength wise, you just refuse.
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I just mentally, I cannot wrap my head around like,
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this ain't happening.
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So I ended up with like 95 pounds on the bar.
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I got you at a front squat, no problem.
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By the way, body weight squats are rough too, psychologically.
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So yeah, I just, when it comes to my legs,
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like I want no part of like leg pressing,
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single leg squats, split squat,
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any of that, I want no part of it.
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So you think like the more traditional variants
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of Sanagi require you to have that leg strength,
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Like when you watch Japanese Judo players,
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like their thighs and their hips, they're thick.
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They got a lot of power there.
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So you're almost like always dropping a little bit
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into a squat position.
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No, no, no, not you, sorry.
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For the traditional ones.
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And so the split hip,
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the split hip actually allows me to keep my legs straight.
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And the farther I split my legs,
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the lower my center of gravity goes.
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Now I don't need my legs.
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So that's the way you were thinking about it.
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But it's, you know, the interesting thing about it
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is because, you know, as I mentioned to you,
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I've gotten to Judo after first watching you
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in the Olympics and then watching Koga as well.
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And so you start imitating the people you foresee
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and then you take it to Judo coaches
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and they're like, no, no, no, no,
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that's the wrong way to do it.
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And happens all the time.
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It drives me nuts, drives me nuts.
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I was in Poland one time teaching a camp
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and I had two coaches anti coaching,
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telling their kids not to do Seio the way I do it
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because it never works.
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How do you have the fortitude and the guts
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to just go on with a throw that's not traditional,
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a variant that's not traditional?
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If you think about it, you know,
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from a very basic like root of it,
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there's a philosophy and a mentality of Judo
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of how the throws work, right?
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There's a mechanical structure there of like,
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If I follow that principle, I can do anything I want.
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Nothing else matters.
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As long as we follow those core principles.
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So in the early days, even then,
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you were able to think on your own.
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Yeah, and I was able to develop a pattern
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for my foot placement based on my opponent's height.
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Because the number one thing any Judo coach would tell you
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is you need your center of gravity below yours.
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Well, now I know exactly where to put my feet
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because the shorter you are, the bigger the split
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because the lower I need to get.
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The taller you are, the less of a split I need.
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Is there something you could say
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about fundamental principles of Judo?
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Is there, over all that time,
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not over 20 years that you've been doing Judo,
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it's not approaching 30, is it?
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Yeah, it's getting there.
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Okay, it's getting there.
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We're a couple years away, but it's getting there.
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Is there some like principles that have emerged?
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Like you said, you have to have your center of gravity
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Is there other kind of, both on the gripping side,
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the footwork side, leverage, anything you can speak to?
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There's some that have withstood like time,
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like you have to be able to get below
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their center of gravity
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because you have to be able to rotate them
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around their center of gravity.
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And then the other one is,
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that was always a principle when I was growing up
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and I didn't change until later on in my career was,
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you have to be able to pull.
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You need to be able to pull to get them off balance.
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But when you think about that statement as a whole,
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it ended with, they have to be off balance.
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I don't need to pull to get you off balance.
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I just need you off balance.
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And when you think about it that way,
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it allows you to open up the doors to,
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what do I need to do to get you off balance?
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I could push, pull, I could flinch, I could fake,
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and you could put yourself in your own off balance state.
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When you think about people who wrestle,
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if I fake shoot, it causes you to over lean forward,
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which means you're off balance.
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There's no pull, there's no push, there's no nothing.
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I just get a reaction that leaves the opportunity
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in the door open for an attack.
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And that off balance could be very subtle?
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Could be very subtle.
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And the better you get and the more skills you get,
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the less subtle it is.
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So we should also mention that there is something called
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forward throws, where you throw the person,
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they're gonna fly facing forward,
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they're gonna fly forward.
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And then a backward throw, they're gonna fly back.
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Yep, and then there's lateral,
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they actually go sideways over, like a cartwheel almost.
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Okay, so the forward throws,
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there's the one we've been talking about,
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which is Seinagi, and there's a bunch of different variants,
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Ippon, Marote, Seinagi.
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There's drop and there's standing versions of them.
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And that all, I don't know if there's a way to summarize it,
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but that's like as clean as getting your center of gravity
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under theirs as it gets.
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And then the rest is just gripping variations.
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I guess it's all gripping variations
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on all of these throws, but.
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And then there is, in terms of forward throws,
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there's the other big one in competition is Uchimata,
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which is, I don't know, we can try to explain that one.
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But it ends up being where one,
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you're standing on just one of your feet,
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and the other one is up in the air.
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And I don't know if you would put in that same category,
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Harai Goshi, like those kinds of throws
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where you're kind of a little bit single footed.
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Yeah, so there's two footed techniques
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and then there's single footed, yeah.
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Oh, Goshi, where it's like you're doing a mix
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between the Uchimata and the Seinagi.
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You hug a person and then you turn your hips around
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such that you're now hugging facing the same direction.
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When it comes to forward throw,
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there's, regardless of the name of the throw
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or the gripping variation that you're using,
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the whole principle is how do I get this person
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to do a forward roll in midair and land on their back?
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The more of a forward roll I can get, the bigger the score.
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If I get like a quarter of a turn
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where like you land on your side
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and you don't go over your back, it's a half score.
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But they all require me to get you
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to do that forward rolling action.
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So just if we think of one person,
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if they do this nice leap forward and they do a roll
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and their back nicely rolls over the ground,
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you're trying to do the exact same thing
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with you connected to them.
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Well, and if it's nice and it's smooth,
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it's probably not a full score.
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It needs to have like somewhat of a violent impact.
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So if you think of a drop, say Nagi,
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if I'm moving too slow and you still roll over your shoulders
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and there's no direct impact, it's only a half score.
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They want the force.
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The force, the violence.
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So then in terms of backward throws, the traditional ones,
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there's stuff where you trip them from outside their body,
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It's a trip where you hook your leg onto their leg
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and you trip them, but your hook goes outside of their legs.
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And then there's the trips from inside their body.
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There's a one foot is called kuchi gari
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and then the other is ochi gari, it doesn't matter.
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The most important thing is outside and inside.
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Inside and then there's like,
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I don't even know how you throw them sideways
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except foot sweeps.
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And then there's the foot sweeps
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where you can sweep one of their legs from out of them
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or both their legs at the same time.
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And like we're talking about this kind of is
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when timed perfectly, it's effortless for everybody involved
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and the ending, like you said, is big, dramatic and violent.
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Is there other kind of, oh yeah.
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There's a sacrifice techniques.
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There's a bunch of them.
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And that ultimately the variations have to do with gripping,
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but you're basically you, the attacker fall onto your back,
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sticking your legs somewhere onto their body,
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which is like this fulcrum over which they fly
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and do that same kind of roll that you mentioned.
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You basically sacrifice your back to the mat
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in order to throw them into that circular pattern.
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So they hit their back.
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Sometimes we use a foot,
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sometimes we don't.
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And so we should probably say,
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it's okay for you to go onto your back
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as long as you're clearly demonstrating control
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over the other person's body.
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You can't go to your back in the same direction
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that your opponent is trying to put you to your back.
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You have to go the other way
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or you have to initiate you going to your own back.
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And then there's all the counters
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which almost kind of have a whole group of their own,
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even though they have echoes of the same types of techniques,
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it seems like they're their own whole thing.
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Yeah, but they follow the same principles.
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It's just most counters.
link |
Like if you wanted to counter Ennuchi Mata, for example,
link |
you're trying to throw me in a somersault
link |
over my right shoulder.
link |
Therefore, I would counter you
link |
by throwing you over your left shoulder.
link |
It goes in the opposite shoulder direction,
link |
but in the same somersault idea.
link |
And there used to be, I already at this point,
link |
forget the years, but it might be before the 2012 Olympics
link |
where they banned, you used to be allowed to grab legs
link |
in the same way you do in wrestling.
link |
So you have basically all the techniques
link |
you would have in wrestling available to you
link |
if you would like.
link |
It's just that some of the techniques in wrestling
link |
are not that effective
link |
for getting your opponent to their back.
link |
Wrestlers wanna take the other person down
link |
in any way possible and have control.
link |
Judo wants to take you down, like we said,
link |
in a big fashion where your back slams on the ground.
link |
Yeah, it has to be to the back.
link |
A lot of wrestling takedowns happen
link |
because they get behind them and then they parterre out.
link |
Yeah, so, but Judo banned all touching of the legs,
link |
which is a very dramatic change at the sport.
link |
After, it was after 2012?
link |
In 2012, so 2008, I fought the games
link |
and everything was free.
link |
In 2012, we could only touch the legs
link |
as a defensive action or in response to an attack.
link |
So I could try to throw you with a normal throw
link |
and then when you try to counter, I could grab your leg.
link |
So there had to be a secondary technique.
link |
And didn't, like, didn't they disqualify
link |
on a first offense?
link |
First offense was a direct disqualification,
link |
which happened at the 2012 games to the 57 Brazilian
link |
She was DQed and I think the quarters.
link |
And it was like, I wouldn't say it was blatant
link |
as much as I don't think the act changed the outcome
link |
of the match had they not disqualified her.
link |
So that's not that dramatic.
link |
And by the way, you say 57, that refers to weight divisions
link |
and that's in kilograms and kilograms is the measure
link |
of weight that the rest of the world uses
link |
and the United States does not.
link |
So, and there's, we should say the divisions for guys,
link |
I don't know what the 70, I don't know if the lower level,
link |
60, 66, 73, 81, 90, 100 and heavyweight,
link |
which has no ceiling.
link |
No ceiling, as we'll talk about.
link |
It's an important distinction.
link |
Yeah, it is an important distinction.
link |
And you competed most of your career at 81 kilograms.
link |
All, you never did 73.
link |
Well, you had to cut big for 81 anyway,
link |
especially towards the end of my career, yeah.
link |
I overly grew into the division.
link |
What's, I'm trying to remember, is it about 180 pounds?
link |
And you have to weigh in with the gear.
link |
You're not allowed to wear anything
link |
except for your underwear, weigh in.
link |
Confusing digits, that's right, that's right, that's right.
link |
That's which is very nice.
link |
Okay, so we, would you say we covered
link |
most of the throws or no?
link |
So there's the forward and the backward,
link |
there's the sacrifice throws and the counters.
link |
And then there's the leg grabs.
link |
And we should say for the leg grabs that were effective,
link |
it's like the big pickups
link |
where you just kind of pick them up
link |
and try to figure out once they're in the air
link |
what the heck to do with their body
link |
to get them to the ground.
link |
You just kind of figure it out as you go.
link |
I think the really nice one
link |
that was to me heartbreaking as a fantasy go
link |
is I guess what's called a fireman's carry,
link |
which is, it does lead to judo like beautiful throws.
link |
And the fact that that was gone is,
link |
that one I missed a little bit,
link |
but then a bunch of people I guess came up with the variance
link |
where you don't need to grab the leg.
link |
It's definitely not as effective as being able to grab it,
link |
but I'm also on the side of the fence
link |
having competed in all three.
link |
It was definitely better for the sport
link |
to remove it as a whole.
link |
It's probably good to cover sort of
link |
the whole spectrum of rules of judo
link |
is there's groundwork.
link |
So you do all this stuff on the feet
link |
where you're trying to murder each other
link |
with a giant throw.
link |
But then if the throw doesn't succeed,
link |
you go to the ground and you stay in the ground
link |
for some amount of time, like short amount of time.
link |
You have to move quickly, you have to be attacking.
link |
And two of the ways you can win
link |
is similar to people who do jiu jitsu
link |
is you can submit them, chokes, arm breaks,
link |
all that kind of stuff, no footlocks.
link |
And you can also pin them,
link |
which is get around their legs.
link |
And this is very, no, this is not like wrestling.
link |
You have to actually get around their legs
link |
and pin them in what in jiu jitsu is called
link |
side control mount, all kinds of ways
link |
that doesn't involve their legs.
link |
And then you pin them for like whatever,
link |
20 seconds, 25 seconds.
link |
Yeah, 20 seconds now.
link |
I think the distinction is their back
link |
has to be facing the mat.
link |
You have to be past their legs
link |
and your chest has to be on the same plane as theirs.
link |
So it doesn't have to necessarily be on top,
link |
but it has to be on the same plane.
link |
And all of this is, I think different sports
link |
have different versions of this,
link |
but it's like an approximation
link |
of what dominance looks like.
link |
So pin and wrestling is dominating your opponent.
link |
Presumably if you were in a street fight,
link |
that position allows you to then do a lot of damage.
link |
Obviously submissions is dominance
link |
cause you're breaking their arm or choking them to unconscious.
link |
And then obviously the throw,
link |
which is not often talked about,
link |
but like if you talk about a street fight situation,
link |
a throw is like the best way to murder somebody.
link |
Like this could end anyone's life.
link |
It's terrifying actually.
link |
So, okay, so these are all elements of dominance.
link |
So going back to set of principles,
link |
you were mentioning getting your center of mass under theirs,
link |
which I think applies for type of like the forward
link |
say Nagi throws, is there other stuff?
link |
Oh, so you mentioned off balance.
link |
Yeah, there's the off balance one
link |
where you can either pull to get an off balance
link |
or you can give way to the force,
link |
which can also lead to an off balance.
link |
You can amplify somebody's force to,
link |
so for example, if you push me,
link |
you expect a certain reaction that you're ready for.
link |
But if you push me and I pull you,
link |
now you didn't expect that much force coming out of you.
link |
Therefore you're off balance.
link |
The thing that's distinctly recognizable about Judo
link |
is like when done at the highest level,
link |
like it seems effortless when the big throw happens.
link |
Like that's just, it doesn't,
link |
there is no other sport like it in the combat sports
link |
where it's like when the timing is right,
link |
everything just is perfect.
link |
I think you get that out of my mate
link |
and boxing sometimes when this is a perfect strike,
link |
just like, but it's not just like a hard hit.
link |
It's like, it's almost like with Conor McGregor and Aldo,
link |
for example, when you just catch him just right.
link |
You didn't look like you hit him that hard,
link |
but you hit him just right.
link |
And then you get to see this all the time in Judo.
link |
And so the beginning part of that
link |
is because there's a jacket,
link |
there's also this whole thing that you're a master of,
link |
which is like, which is gripping.
link |
So is there something you could say about,
link |
are there some fundamental principles of gripping
link |
that you can speak to?
link |
Like what the hell is gripping?
link |
Gripping is having the ability to hold your opponent
link |
in such a way where you have the ability to be offensive
link |
and also the ability to be defensive at the same given time.
link |
And it's a distinction because I can hold you
link |
in such a way where I might be able to feel offensive,
link |
but if you can take a purely defensive grip
link |
and then I can't be offensive, we are no longer gripping.
link |
We are holding each other.
link |
And so like that would be the act of being able to grip
link |
is to be in a situation where you have me and I have you,
link |
and I can play both offense and defense at the same time
link |
where you can only play defense.
link |
So Donaher talks about like Jiu Jitsu that way,
link |
but maybe you can see if there's a distinction.
link |
So you have a set of weapons.
link |
The other person has a set of weapons.
link |
You wanna sort of maximize the use of your weapons
link |
and shut down the set of weapons that they have.
link |
Do you see gripping the same way on the feet?
link |
I do if we wanna include body positioning
link |
with our gripping.
link |
Because I can give you any grip you want
link |
and you still can't throw me.
link |
Because I can put myself in a position
link |
that nullifies your ability to use those grips
link |
in a successful way.
link |
And those, would you say the hips are critical to that
link |
or is it everything?
link |
Hips, shoulders, chin position, head position,
link |
the angle of your foot.
link |
Yeah, where you lean.
link |
And so, and there's a bunch of places you can grip.
link |
Obviously, if people like kind of think of a jacket,
link |
like there's a bunch of places you can grip
link |
that are interesting.
link |
So you can grip on the collar,
link |
you can grip on the sleeves,
link |
you can grip like the elbow joint.
link |
And then you could do those bad ass,
link |
like Eastern European, Georgian, over the back.
link |
Over the back, over the opposite sides of the heads.
link |
The Koreans that grab on one side
link |
around the head with their hands together.
link |
There's something really nice about just those,
link |
I mean, especially George just keeps throwing that hand.
link |
Just over the person and just,
link |
you're not actually gripping a belt or anything.
link |
You're gripping just the entirety of like,
link |
as opposed to being all nice
link |
and I'm gonna grab this part of the jacket,
link |
this part of the jacket.
link |
You're just like taking the whole fucking jacket
link |
and just launching somebody.
link |
For those people that can't picture judo,
link |
think about it in like,
link |
if you understood like what a boxing match looks like,
link |
and you thought about that as like traditional gripping,
link |
when you throw like a Russian grip over the back,
link |
that's more like a hockey fight.
link |
Like I'm just grabbing you and we're just gonna,
link |
we're gonna be throwing punches left and right.
link |
Cause when we have that grip,
link |
somebody has to get thrown.
link |
There's no, we don't walk around with this grip.
link |
It's go time once somebody throws it.
link |
To me, as a fan and sort of amateur practitioner,
link |
there's two styles of Olympic level judo.
link |
One is where you're trying not to get thrown.
link |
And the other is where you're trying to throw.
link |
More specifically, when you're trying not to get thrown,
link |
there's like the strategy that you're using gripping
link |
to nullify their offense and all those kinds of stuff here.
link |
You're being very clever and strategic and all that,
link |
maybe using conditioning.
link |
And then there's people who just like step in the pocket
link |
and they almost don't care if they're getting thrown
link |
cause they have the confidence
link |
that they're gonna throw first.
link |
And those, like there's a clear distinction
link |
between the people that do one or the other.
link |
And I think both can be done extremely successfully
link |
at the highest level.
link |
It's just like, obviously you admire the people
link |
that step in the pocket.
link |
And I think when you look at the people
link |
who do judo the best,
link |
like if we wanna talk about like the top 10%
link |
of the people who would compete at the games,
link |
And they do both really well, but they favor one.
link |
Because if you look at a player like
link |
Lutepe Tilliani of Georgia, for example,
link |
there's a guy that stands in the pocket.
link |
But we can find numerous occasions
link |
where he's hustled some people
link |
for like a short period of time
link |
to get out of scenarios, to elongate the match,
link |
to make somebody tired.
link |
So you want both sides of the coin,
link |
but you better pick the one that 80% of your strategy
link |
is gonna be built around.
link |
Sorry for the romantic question,
link |
but I talked to Dan Gable
link |
and he always looked to the Russians
link |
as the artists in wrestling.
link |
And he always wanted to be an artist.
link |
But I think he's known for being that sort of guts,
link |
aggression, mental toughness guy,
link |
but he always was drawn to the artistry of wrestling.
link |
It's hard to know when you just watch you,
link |
because it looks like you're aggressive
link |
and you got the guts and the mental toughness,
link |
but there's also obviously a mastery of technique.
link |
Which would you lean towards in terms of
link |
what accounts for your success
link |
and just the way you approach judo?
link |
Is it the guts, the aggression, the mental toughness,
link |
or is it the mastery of technique, the artistry?
link |
Mine would be my aggressiveness
link |
if I'm gonna pick those two areas.
link |
But I think there's a third area in there
link |
that I would put myself in where I'm more of a strategist.
link |
I look at all of my opponents
link |
and all I ever see is their faults.
link |
And the way I do judo is built around their faults.
link |
And it's just, I put myself in scenarios
link |
where I don't even know how I'm gonna win.
link |
But what I've done in those scenarios is
link |
I've made it very difficult for you to win.
link |
And then I figure out the rest as I go.
link |
Like how do you study an opponent?
link |
Are there bins you can put them in?
link |
Like there's a lefty and a righty or this kind of stuff.
link |
How many bins are there in judo in your mind
link |
that you put your opponents in?
link |
Yeah, there's probably about 20.
link |
There's like certain players who you could put
link |
in a category of like, they're only good
link |
for the first two thirds of the match.
link |
After that, they turn into a different player
link |
where they're either falling into a sense of panic
link |
And you can, if you were to take a video clip
link |
of let's say Church's Philly, right?
link |
They got Georgia and I beat in the Olympic semi.
link |
He's somebody that would beat you
link |
in the first three minutes.
link |
And if you clipped out all of his matches
link |
and you only watched the first three minutes
link |
of every match, you would see one style.
link |
If you found all the matches where he got taken
link |
into the last minute and he wasn't winning by a major score,
link |
you would see a completely different fighter.
link |
And so going into like my Olympic semi,
link |
I put him into that category of like,
link |
I wanna get to this guy, cause this guy is beautiful.
link |
The trick is, how do you get there?
link |
How do you get there?
link |
And by the way, we're talking about the 2016 Olympics
link |
where you won the silver medal.
link |
You were part of three different Olympics.
link |
But the cardio aspect of it,
link |
have you faced exhaustion often in your matches
link |
where you have to go deep and go like past?
link |
Yeah, but that's not from the judo side of it.
link |
That's from like, I did a very bad job of making weight.
link |
It's always the weight cut.
link |
Yeah, it's always the weight cut.
link |
And I think people really struggle with that.
link |
They blame cardio and training and everything else.
link |
But when it really comes down to it,
link |
like we train for an hour and a half, two hours,
link |
How are you tired after five minutes?
link |
Right, it becomes into a mental struggle,
link |
your anxiety, your stress, your lack of belief in yourself.
link |
Or in my case, sometimes it's poor nutrition.
link |
Sometimes I had one too many McDonald's meals.
link |
It just, it happens.
link |
Okay, so let's talk about weight cutting real quick.
link |
So I've seen weight cutting break
link |
some of the toughest fighters, wrestlers, grapplers ever.
link |
Like burnout break,
link |
like where it makes you wanna quit the sport.
link |
So this is what people don't often talk about,
link |
but mentally it's one of the hardest things,
link |
especially when you're doing it kind of wrong.
link |
Because it becomes a mental war.
link |
So you competed, like you said,
link |
your whole career at 81 kilograms.
link |
You walked around at?
link |
So about 15 pounds, sometimes 20 pounds over that.
link |
And so what was your process like mentally and physically?
link |
First of all, maybe you can comment on
link |
when the weigh ins are relative to the matches.
link |
And then what was your process like leading
link |
like a week ahead, a day ahead,
link |
an hour ahead, minutes ahead of the weigh in?
link |
Man, everyone varies tremendously
link |
because we're not like most sports
link |
because you're dropped off in foreign countries
link |
with who knows what, right?
link |
Some places have saunas, some places have treadmills.
link |
I went to a place one time in China
link |
in the middle of winter where the roads were frozen with ice
link |
and we had to use our hotel rooms
link |
because you couldn't sweat outside
link |
because it was too cold.
link |
And every one of my Olympics,
link |
the weight cut was different just given my mass.
link |
When I went to 2008,
link |
I was probably like 82, 83 kilos walking around.
link |
So weight cutting wasn't a thing for me.
link |
In London, we actually weighed in the morning of.
link |
So weigh ins were at like 6 a.m.
link |
And the Olympics were always beneficial to me
link |
because they actually don't start until like 10 or 11.
link |
So you actually were able to recover.
link |
Where on the circuit you would weigh in at 6 a.m.
link |
and the competition started at 8 a.m.
link |
It's like, well, I was cutting weight at 5 a.m.
link |
And most of it for people who are not familiar,
link |
but maybe you can also correct me,
link |
most of it, you're really just getting the water
link |
out of your system.
link |
At that point, yeah.
link |
Like 24 hours before even, like.
link |
Like an hour before.
link |
But yeah, but like leading up to it.
link |
And have you eaten the day before?
link |
Do you try to minimize the amount of food in your system?
link |
My weight cutting process was a little bit different
link |
than most people because I like to eat.
link |
I'm not the type of person that believes
link |
your athletic career is determined by your nutrition.
link |
I don't believe that.
link |
I think some sports are built that way.
link |
But when it comes to combat sports,
link |
like, you know, your ability to knock somebody out
link |
has nothing to do with whether you had a cheeseburger
link |
My ability to throw you is not determined by that.
link |
I may be able to perform better
link |
because I've eaten a certain way,
link |
but not enough to justify an entire diet change.
link |
Your body is built and my body is built
link |
to operate with certain things
link |
that I've had in my system for years.
link |
Yeah, I think I'm with you,
link |
but I also believe that there's a mental aspect.
link |
So if you're surrounded by people
link |
that tell you diet matters,
link |
then if your diet is off,
link |
you're gonna believe you're going to be off
link |
because the people around you tell you
link |
your diet should be good.
link |
So yeah, I think it's like,
link |
it's the same, I've had an argument with Matthew Walker,
link |
who's a sleep scientist about sleep.
link |
And it's like, if you believe sleep is essential,
link |
it's essential to get eight hours of sleep
link |
every single night perfectly,
link |
then you're going to be very stressed when you don't get it.
link |
And then I think it will negatively affect,
link |
the stress will negatively affect your longevity
link |
and all kinds of aspects of your life.
link |
If you actually just learn to truly listen to your body,
link |
become a scientist of your own body with sleep and food,
link |
it might end up that it will be the eight hours a night
link |
or whatever, but it might be something else
link |
and probably diet error.
link |
I remember when I was meeting
link |
with the USOC nutritionist after London,
link |
it was probably around 2014, I think.
link |
And when we had our team meeting
link |
at the beginning of the year and I was talking to him,
link |
he was talking about the nutrition plans
link |
that he could put us on.
link |
And I was like, time out.
link |
I've done the USOC thing, like I've done the couscous,
link |
I've done the lemon in my water.
link |
I go, I'm full of shit.
link |
The couscous? Yeah.
link |
Like there was just,
link |
cause there's like a cookie cutter plan, right?
link |
And I was like, look, here's what I want you to do.
link |
I go, I'll listen to you,
link |
but you're going to walk into the 711
link |
across the street from the USOC.
link |
And if you can't buy it in that 711, it's not on my plan.
link |
I go, because I go to places where
link |
the only thing I can eat is Pringles and a Snickers bar.
link |
Like I've flown to Azerbaijan,
link |
stayed in a hotel where the restaurant is closed.
link |
USA Judo hasn't paid for the meal plan.
link |
And the only thing that's available
link |
is the thing across the street.
link |
So you were eating Pringles.
link |
Before fighting a Grand Slam event,
link |
while cutting 20 pounds.
link |
And a Snickers bar.
link |
I just, the visual of that, that's some like,
link |
that's some Rocky shit.
link |
Give me a nutrition plan.
link |
Cause I'm not paying my own way
link |
to travel with 14 days of food.
link |
I mean, that's, that's one of the magic of your whole career
link |
I mean, I'm sorry to say, of course,
link |
you want athletes to be super rich
link |
and super well funded from an athlete perspective
link |
and the sport to be popular and managed
link |
in an ultra competent way.
link |
That's not reality.
link |
But as a fan, it's fun to watch somebody like you
link |
who's exceptionally driven,
link |
has to suffer in all these different interesting ways.
link |
But it's only suffering if you expect the other side.
link |
I don't expect it.
link |
I accept it for what it is,
link |
which is why I write off nutrition for athletes.
link |
Cause it can be done without it.
link |
As long as, you know, to what you said before,
link |
like you don't believe you need it.
link |
Some people believe they need it.
link |
The mind, getting your mind right
link |
is the most important thing.
link |
You know what I believe I need?
link |
A Snickers bar when I'm tired.
link |
I want a little bit of sugar.
link |
It makes me feel better.
link |
What do you want me to do?
link |
what are you going to do?
link |
I just love the visual of you eating a Snickers bar
link |
before a grand slam.
link |
But that became part of my nutrition plan.
link |
When the USOC guy wrote my nutrition plan,
link |
I was eating a burrito bowl with brown rice,
link |
white meat chicken, black beans, guacamole, cheese,
link |
two chocolate chip cookies and a Diet Coke.
link |
This is like Chipotle or?
link |
It was Beloco, but same concept.
link |
Same concept with two chocolate chip cookies.
link |
Cause I needed the sugar.
link |
I was 88 kilos when I stepped on the scale
link |
Now I got to make 81.
link |
And the USOC was like,
link |
Hey, you know, you can't, you can't fight 81 anymore.
link |
You have to fight nineties.
link |
And I go, I'm already into the quad.
link |
I go, build me a plan where I can do this.
link |
And now we have to have an acceptable weight cut.
link |
Like it just, what do you want me to do?
link |
I can't just change the fact that it takes two years
link |
I know where I'm at.
link |
I know what I have to go through
link |
and I accept the consequences.
link |
What do you want me to do?
link |
All right, so what was the process?
link |
I mean, can you, can you speak to,
link |
so you, you wake up early in the morning,
link |
the day of the weigh ins, a few hours before.
link |
Technically my weight cut never started
link |
until I got off a plane and to a hotel.
link |
And how many hours?
link |
So it's a three day cut.
link |
It's a three day cut.
link |
Mentally you're thinking of it that way.
link |
And then you're still eating.
link |
And then like, what do you load up on water?
link |
Maybe as you start and then the water stops.
link |
So you, I mean, it's a slow,
link |
you're not actually like sweating all three days.
link |
But then it's like torture to sleep.
link |
Part of the process.
link |
Are you able to sleep?
link |
So you're dehydrated, further and further dehydrated
link |
with six, 7% body fat, trying to lose 10 pounds.
link |
I even developed a way to drink water out of a bottle
link |
where I don't drink anything,
link |
but I feel like I have swishing it.
link |
So like, I take like a bottle of water
link |
and like, if we were to like, to draw a line on it,
link |
I would tip it and I would go like this.
link |
And you would draw that line,
link |
but like I've drank now water for 20 seconds or whatever
link |
And I feel, I get the fix.
link |
Brain told me I got there.
link |
That's amazing, man.
link |
You just, your mind's a very powerful tool.
link |
And the problem a lot of people have is
link |
they don't accept the reality of the situation.
link |
They bitch about the reality of the situation.
link |
First of all, you could always quit, right?
link |
So like, you're not.
link |
Never missed weight.
link |
Never missed weight.
link |
You can perform poorly.
link |
You can't miss weight.
link |
Don't miss weight.
link |
Don't miss weight.
link |
Because you can always win
link |
regardless of how bad the weight cut is.
link |
You can never win if you miss weight.
link |
But your brain is also really good.
link |
Maybe not your brain,
link |
but I know my brain,
link |
I think most people's brains are good at generating,
link |
the more desperate things become,
link |
the better at generating excuses.
link |
So what were you doing with your mind
link |
that resulted in you never missing weight?
link |
So like I said, like my weight cut would never start
link |
until I got to the hotel
link |
because I didn't check my weight the morning of,
link |
I didn't check my weight when I got there.
link |
I just, while I'm traveling,
link |
I'm doing things at like a minimal level,
link |
but I'm never not giving myself something I'm craving.
link |
If I'm thirsty, I'm drinking a Diet Coke.
link |
If I'm hungry, I'm buying a Snickers bar.
link |
I'm buying a sandwich.
link |
And I accept the consequences when I get there.
link |
And then when I get there,
link |
if I step on the scale and it says 88 kilos,
link |
I instantaneously know exactly
link |
what it's gonna take to be 81.
link |
And then you just follow like a robot,
link |
follow a very specific process.
link |
cause there's a lot of seconds in three days,
link |
seconds and minutes and you just.
link |
I just know exactly what it takes from my body.
link |
I know exactly what a one hour gym workout
link |
wearing a sauna suit is gonna take.
link |
I know exactly what I'm gonna lose on day one.
link |
And I know exactly what I'm gonna lose on day three,
link |
because they're not the same.
link |
So I can instantly look at a hotel,
link |
decide is there a bathroom, sauna, gym,
link |
temperature of the gym, access to the gym and when it is,
link |
access to the judo mats, my training partners,
link |
the roads versus streetlights, the weather outside.
link |
I can take a look at that environment and say,
link |
this is my weight, this is weigh ins.
link |
And instantaneously in my head,
link |
there's a plan to make weight.
link |
And you have a sense of how much sweat adds up to 10 pounds.
link |
How much sweat plus time.
link |
And I make sure in my plan,
link |
all of my meals and how much water I need in between
link |
is allocated to still make weight.
link |
Cause you have to eat or drink during that time.
link |
Are you incorporating like mental exhaustion into this?
link |
That doesn't exist.
link |
Do you like meditate or something?
link |
What did the thoughts come, especially three days.
link |
We're not talking about four hours of suffering.
link |
This has broken some of the toughest people in the world.
link |
The hardest weight cut I ever had.
link |
I fought Pan Am games in 2015 in Edmonton, Canada
link |
on a Wednesday and I won.
link |
So I've made weight on Tuesday.
link |
I fought on Wednesday where I had to weigh in
link |
5% of my weight class, so 84 kilos.
link |
On Wednesday I was 84 kilos.
link |
I got on a plane on that Wednesday night
link |
and landed Friday morning in Sochi.
link |
Okay, so I've traveled now.
link |
I got on the scale, all my bags got lost, everything.
link |
So somehow I flew from there to here, no bags.
link |
And I threw all of my stuff in my bag.
link |
I wore sandals, one pair of pants and a T shirt
link |
on the plane because I was like, I'm just tired.
link |
I don't even want to carry it.
link |
What are the odds that I get there and my bags are gone?
link |
Sure enough, it's gone.
link |
I get all the way to Sochi.
link |
I check into the hotel.
link |
There's one sauna.
link |
You have to reserve it and you're only allowed
link |
to reserve it for an X period of time.
link |
Guess in a small tangent, when you phoned out,
link |
your bags are gone.
link |
This is something I'll often think about.
link |
There's like people that are helping you, right?
link |
Like there's a person at the airport who goes.
link |
And then the person at the hotel who tells you
link |
that you have to reserve the sauna and looks at you like
link |
you're, they don't care that you've been suffering.
link |
They don't even understand why you need it.
link |
Oh, you know, oh, this, like this little kid reserved it
link |
for five hours or something to block it off.
link |
Is there a frustration that gets in there?
link |
You just accept reality.
link |
Don't even hinder on like the things you can't change.
link |
Because the second you get frustrated,
link |
the second you think you can change it,
link |
you'll harp on it.
link |
And that breaks most men.
link |
That like little thing in the back of their mind thinking,
link |
There's no what if.
link |
There's only right here right now.
link |
If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
link |
Let's just quickly come up with a solution
link |
to fix the problem.
link |
By the way, as another small tangent,
link |
all the greatest people I've interacted with
link |
at the highest level think like that.
link |
They don't linger on the, it's like the next thing.
link |
Because like, if you want to do something great,
link |
hard stuff is going to keep happening to you.
link |
And if you're going to let that affect you,
link |
you're not ever going to do the great thing.
link |
It's fascinating actually.
link |
Like that's the one skill you have to learn.
link |
Elon Musk is great at this.
link |
Constantly dealing with emergencies.
link |
Okay, this happened.
link |
What's the next step?
link |
It's not that big of a deal.
link |
Every problem has a solution.
link |
And if I can't solve it, it's not my problem.
link |
You know what I mean?
link |
So what, so how'd you figure it out?
link |
Get this, I get to the hotel.
link |
I don't even know about the sauna yet.
link |
I go, I need to find a clothing store.
link |
I'm in the middle of Russia.
link |
I open up Google Maps and I'm like, sports store.
link |
I find an Adidas sports store
link |
in the middle of Sochi, Russia, right?
link |
I spend like $500 on like average sweats.
link |
No plastics, no nothing, and no running shoes
link |
cause they don't have any.
link |
What's the temperature outside?
link |
It was kind of like springish.
link |
So it wasn't cold, but it wasn't hot.
link |
So you still need a lot of layers preferably.
link |
You would need a lot of layers just to cut
link |
the amount of weight I'm about to tell you I have to cut
link |
because after I bought that stuff that next morning,
link |
and mind you, it's a Friday, it's a Friday morning.
link |
I go to the venue where we have the mats open to train
link |
and I step on the scale.
link |
And then Sagan Batar of Mongolia goes,
link |
oh, pretty good, you're almost there.
link |
And I go, no, I'm not.
link |
I stepped on the scale at almost 94 kilos.
link |
And I looked at him and I was like, I'm 81.
link |
And he went, good luck.
link |
You're almost there.
link |
For the next weight class above.
link |
Is this on a Saturday or Sunday?
link |
No, no, no, sorry.
link |
Friday morning, the competition is when?
link |
I weigh in Sunday.
link |
I'm like, holy crap.
link |
I throw on all my layers and there's one other person
link |
with me there, Kalita, who was my girlfriend at the time,
link |
now my wife, we start doing judo.
link |
Cause I'm like, this will be the easiest way to knock off
link |
like three or four kilos.
link |
I have no gi and I'm working out with a female.
link |
I can't get overly physical to really get my muscles
link |
going to really break that sweat
link |
because she has to compete in a day or two.
link |
She's not a training partner.
link |
You can't just use this person.
link |
I stepped on the scale.
link |
So I went, well, I was a nice den, but like,
link |
yeah, I go, that's not going to fly.
link |
So sure enough, the clothes are now ruined.
link |
They didn't help me lose any extra weight.
link |
So I go back to the hotel and I start reserving the sauna.
link |
Do you know how hard it is to lose that much weight
link |
in a sauna by yourself?
link |
So it's harder on many levels,
link |
but one of them is just mental.
link |
You're sitting in heat.
link |
Heat, and you're not doing anything.
link |
Like if there had been a bike or like the sauna
link |
was big enough to use a jump rope
link |
or you could do some sort of activity,
link |
but you just sit and you stew and you're there mentally.
link |
At one point during the weight cut,
link |
I actually had my mouth on the bottom part of the door
link |
where there was a little gap and my legs up on the benches
link |
and Kalita holding the door so that it didn't open
link |
so I couldn't open it so that I could lean against
link |
that thing and have fresh air.
link |
Cause I was like, I was struggling.
link |
And we're talking about, I mean, how many hours is that?
link |
And then the thing is,
link |
is because you have to reserve the sauna.
link |
I can't even take like a 30 minute break
link |
because the sauna is not going to be mine in an hour,
link |
which means you have to use the sauna and the heat
link |
for that allotted time period.
link |
And I hate saunas.
link |
That is always my last resort.
link |
I would use a bath.
link |
Sauna is like, oh, let me do that for 10 minutes
link |
after all of my gym workouts,
link |
just to keep the sweat going while I stretch and cool down.
link |
That's never like the, hey,
link |
I'm going to do five, 10 minute sessions
link |
because I need to lose two kilos.
link |
That is never the plan.
link |
But I mean, so I've done plenty of sauna for weight cuts
link |
to know I can't even imagine what you went through.
link |
And the seconds slow down.
link |
That's one way to achieve immortality is like
link |
the time slows down to like a stop
link |
and you're left alone with your thoughts.
link |
You can't do anything.
link |
Just like you said, you can't.
link |
There's nothing worse than sitting in that kind of heat
link |
for 10, 15 minutes.
link |
And then you walk out and you're not even sweating.
link |
There's nothing worse than that.
link |
And if you like, and maybe if you weigh yourself,
link |
which you probably shouldn't be doing
link |
because it'll break you.
link |
You haven't lost anything.
link |
And I was weighing myself every time
link |
because I only get breaks
link |
when I was hitting weight allotments.
link |
And so if I could lose 0.3 in 10 minutes,
link |
I'd give myself a break, but I had to hit certain numbers
link |
because I only have the sauna for a certain amount of time.
link |
And I remember one time I went downstairs
link |
to get my key to the sauna
link |
and the Japanese team had reserved it and took it from me
link |
because the guy didn't put my name on the list
link |
when I called down to get the sauna.
link |
So I lost an entire session that I had to get made up
link |
towards the later part of the day
link |
because I still have no running shoes.
link |
And then sure enough, my bags show up 30 minutes
link |
That's like the universe just kind of giving you
link |
a little wink there.
link |
I think like, because so few people do this weight cut
link |
at this high of a level, people don't often realize
link |
because people get a sense of how hard it is
link |
to run 200 miles in the desert.
link |
Like they, cause they go outside here in Texas,
link |
you can run five miles.
link |
But like the weight cut is really,
link |
I, can you, so you just, like, how did you do it?
link |
Just fucking not refusing to.
link |
You have to make weight.
link |
You have to make weight and you just, that's.
link |
I am astounded when I hear like UFC fighters like miss weight.
link |
Like when Jaden Cox missed weight at the Olympic trials,
link |
I was like, at least his was understandable
link |
because he missed the actual weigh ins.
link |
He didn't, he wasn't like not on weight.
link |
But when UFC fighters like miss weight,
link |
I'm like, how did that happen?
link |
You clearly like gave up a long time ago.
link |
There were times where I was like, well, I can't do this.
link |
There've been times where I've been in a sauna suit
link |
wrestling with a training partner who's probably 60 kilos
link |
who fought earlier that day to lose point three.
link |
Did lose point three.
link |
Like, are you considering your mortality in this moment?
link |
Like, aren't you thinking you're going to die?
link |
Because like, it's severe dehydration.
link |
You could damage your body.
link |
Are you thinking about any of this or is it just, man.
link |
But see, I'm on the other level too where like,
link |
I've been in Belgium, right?
link |
Belgium, there used to be a B level tournament.
link |
And the tournament used to go on.
link |
And because I was always on the heavier side,
link |
like 81s fights on the second day, which is the heavyweight day,
link |
weigh ins were always at like, let's say,
link |
2 p.m. the day before for that tournament.
link |
Well, there was a sauna at the tournament.
link |
I remember like being in the sauna and like, oh, I'm 80.9 kilos.
link |
Weigh ins aren't for three hours.
link |
Fuck it, I'm going to have lunch.
link |
Because I mentally understand that what I eat right now
link |
is going to fuel me for tomorrow.
link |
So I don't want to skip it.
link |
I have the time to put it into my system and still lose it.
link |
It's almost like a computer program.
link |
You're running through the process.
link |
I get it, but like that all relies on your ability to be.
link |
To get it back off.
link |
Yeah, I mean, but also just like go through this process,
link |
It's like those monks who meditate while sitting in a fire
link |
kind of thing or something, right?
link |
Yeah, it's really interesting.
link |
Is there other people that are critical to this
link |
or is this all internal to you?
link |
Are there people that?
link |
Everybody has their own way of doing it.
link |
Some people don't cut that much.
link |
Some people can't weight cut at all, right?
link |
They would rather have been like 83 kilos fighting 90
link |
than, you know, be 83 kilos fighting 81.
link |
So why did you never move up to 90?
link |
What's your sense?
link |
Is it from your deep understanding of your own judo
link |
and like the judo opponents you would face at 90 and 81?
link |
Cause 81 is probably the hardest,
link |
if not the second hardest division in the history of judo
link |
compared to 73 and 81.
link |
You know, when I was a kid, like I always wanted to be
link |
like the middleweight Olympic champion,
link |
like the 81 kilo Olympic champion.
link |
When I was in high school, I made a decision
link |
when I was trying to make weight for 73,
link |
I was like, I was cutting weight for 73
link |
like I was cutting weight at the end of my career, right?
link |
And I was like, I'm just gonna bag it.
link |
I'm gonna accept the fact
link |
that I may not make a junior world team,
link |
I may not make this team, but I'll grow into the division
link |
so when I'm a senior player, like I'm ready to go
link |
and I'll naturally be stronger.
link |
There's an understanding of like a growth process
link |
when you move up a weight class.
link |
Most people can't just, oh, I'm gonna fight 90s
link |
and I'm gonna win because I wanted 81.
link |
The style of judo is different, how you move is different,
link |
how they do things is different.
link |
There's like a learning curve that goes into it.
link |
And because the weight cut didn't really happen
link |
until I was getting ready for Rio,
link |
I wasn't about to have my last Olympic games
link |
be at a different weight class
link |
that I may or may not be able to grow into.
link |
I mean, this is an awesome story of you kind of decided
link |
that this will be your life's work
link |
in terms of judo competitor is like the 81 division.
link |
I'm going to, I mean, I don't know if you saw it that way,
link |
but you're talking about three Olympics
link |
and it's like this story of, I would say tragedy and triumph
link |
of just wars and 81 kilograms with the usual cast
link |
of characters of the top five in the world kind of thing.
link |
So you just became a scholar of that,
link |
let your body grow into it and then let your body outgrow it
link |
and still suffer through it to keep it in the 81 kilograms.
link |
You never competed at like at the highest levels at 90.
link |
I entered one tournament at 90 kilos.
link |
And that was because before Rio from the end of 2014,
link |
all the way up until Rio's, every time I fought,
link |
I got hurt every time there was no time where I made weight
link |
and got injured because my body weight was so high.
link |
My body fat was so low that by the time I dehydrated enough
link |
to get down there and you take the physicality of judo
link |
and throw that into the mix, something broke every time.
link |
It was like nature of the beast.
link |
So the plan was before Rio,
link |
we made an agreement with USA judo
link |
that Travis, you're gonna fight 90 kilos,
link |
but you're not gonna weigh in at 90 kilos.
link |
Like, hey, there's no like, you get to be 94 kilos
link |
and cut to 90s, there's like a,
link |
you're gonna step on the scale at 84 kilos,
link |
like a little bit of a weight cut, but not a full one,
link |
just so that you feel like you get into like the tournament.
link |
Because when I, around 2012,
link |
when I was talking with the USOC nutritionist,
link |
I actually got my weight down so much
link |
that I didn't really need to cut weight.
link |
The problem is, is I wasn't cutting weight,
link |
I didn't feel like I was competing.
link |
Right, you have to go through like that mental process.
link |
And I never really reworked that,
link |
it was easier to just cut the weight and be ready to go.
link |
But when I entered into the 90 kilo division,
link |
I was rushed to the hospital the night after
link |
because my body broke out in hives, like full body.
link |
They said it was stress induced.
link |
So a month before the games, I was hospitalized and hungry
link |
and filled with steroids to get the hives to drop.
link |
And every couple days, my body, when I got back home,
link |
I would end up in the hospital
link |
because my whole body would break out again.
link |
I wonder if it's like deviating from the process
link |
that you so like perfectly crafted already.
link |
Or it was stress from my mind thinking,
link |
like even though it's not top of mind,
link |
there's probably a portion of me that like the Olympics
link |
is coming around and it could be my last, that like my body
link |
just reacted to something chemically.
link |
So I was breaking out in hives.
link |
I actually bought like a 600 euro Hugo boss suit
link |
because when I was in the Netherlands training at the time,
link |
I thought I had bed bugs
link |
because I was getting bit everywhere.
link |
Then I thought there was something in the detergent
link |
at the local thing, so I threw away all my clothes.
link |
Like I was paying for showers
link |
because I was trying to get the detergent off my body
link |
and buying new clothes at the airport.
link |
Trying to figure it out.
link |
Trying to figure it out and just go, yeah,
link |
accepting the situation.
link |
I mean, but the level of stress is exceptionally high here.
link |
Can we talk about the other side?
link |
People are gonna love this.
link |
But you have a long history of persevering through injuries,
link |
through insane amounts of injuries.
link |
My ability to tolerate pain
link |
is probably more than most people.
link |
But see, injuries aren't just pain, right?
link |
It's like, it's also mental, like psychological.
link |
Like again, like the weight cut,
link |
it can make a lot of people quit.
link |
Can you tell your history of injuries?
link |
What are the biggest injuries,
link |
the toughest injuries in your career?
link |
Starting from what, your early teens?
link |
My early teens, I actually got out of sports
link |
from 11 to, I wanna say like 15 years old, 16 years old,
link |
because a kid shot a double leg through my kneecap
link |
and I partially tore all the ligaments in my knee,
link |
cartilage, meniscus, the whole nine yards.
link |
And I had to learn how to walk again.
link |
I spent two years in a leg brace, crutches,
link |
hobbling around the school yard.
link |
That one was a challenge to come back from.
link |
I've broken most of my ribs.
link |
I won nationals with nine broken ribs.
link |
I was actually getting Novocaine shots into my chest
link |
to avoid feeling the pain
link |
and then wrapping them to try to
link |
make sure I didn't pop alone.
link |
I've broken my collarbone.
link |
I have five herniated disc in my neck.
link |
I fractured my back twice.
link |
I've broken my tailbone.
link |
I tore my SI joints.
link |
I've torn my right hamstring twice, my left one once.
link |
Broken my ankles a few times.
link |
I spun it once in a 360 that had dev surgery.
link |
Fingers, toes, elbows, shoulders.
link |
So all of these are, first of all,
link |
you're a tough dude, man.
link |
So each of those have a story behind them.
link |
So if you're talking about the collarbone or the ankles
link |
or the back, the neck,
link |
is there interesting stories here
link |
that are behind these injuries?
link |
Hard training, hard competing, jiu jitsu, judo.
link |
So ground stuff like sparring in the dojo
link |
or like drilling or all that kind of stuff.
link |
If you were to sort of break it down,
link |
your understanding of the landscape
link |
of injuries you went through.
link |
I've never had one in jiu jitsu, ever.
link |
I mean, I might've like torn a fingernail
link |
or like gotten key burned,
link |
but I've never been like seriously injured.
link |
I know when Ponza straight ankle locked me at Copa Podio,
link |
that hurt, but I wasn't injured.
link |
Like it felt sore, but if I had to run, I could run.
link |
I can now understand probably exactly
link |
what the injuries came from then.
link |
You very quickly excelled at jiu jitsu.
link |
You achieved another level in judo.
link |
And I think that means the intensity
link |
with which you approached judo.
link |
To achieve that world class level
link |
probably is the source of the injuries.
link |
Yeah, because the mentality of how I approached judo
link |
Jiu jitsu to me is like a game that like we would play.
link |
Like if you wanted to like grab a basketball
link |
and like go play a game of one on one,
link |
that's like jiu jitsu to me.
link |
Like I can't take the sport in its entirety seriously.
link |
Cause I feel like the community of jiu jitsu
link |
doesn't take it seriously.
link |
So just for people who don't know,
link |
just to set some context,
link |
you're a black belt in jiu jitsu,
link |
but more importantly,
link |
you've beaten a lot of world class jiu jitsu people.
link |
You've done very well at the highest levels of competition.
link |
Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily say I've beaten them
link |
as much as I've trained with them.
link |
And they understand whoever it is
link |
that through training with me,
link |
that like, I'm not just a judo guy.
link |
Like I know how to do jiu jitsu, right?
link |
And if any one of them were to come to me and like say,
link |
hey, I wanna feel what it feels like to do judo with me.
link |
They would quickly understand
link |
that like the way I approach one
link |
is very different than the way I approach the other.
link |
Like we probably wouldn't be friends
link |
if they did judo with me versus if they did jiu jitsu with me.
link |
I'm curious asking for a friend
link |
because mostly because I'll do a little judo with you today.
link |
So you clearly, cause you're a great instructor and teacher,
link |
you have a mode where you can demonstrate a technique.
link |
Do you know how to like spar where you're going like 50%?
link |
It's hard to put like a percentage to it
link |
because I've never in all of my jiu jitsu ever gone 100%.
link |
Like I had a conversation with Salo one time
link |
where we were talking about like jiu jitsu and training.
link |
And I was like, well, if I got his arm, I would just break it.
link |
And he was like, but what if he tapped?
link |
I go, that's not my responsibility.
link |
If he taps and the ref doesn't say anything,
link |
you just break it.
link |
You just keep going.
link |
He goes, but the tap means it's over.
link |
And I said, no, the ref tells me when it's over.
link |
I go, I never give you the opportunity to tap.
link |
Cause if you have the opportunity to tap,
link |
that means you had the opportunity to think about
link |
how to get out, make a decision that you can't, then tap.
link |
I clearly operated too slowly.
link |
So there's a, it's either broken or I don't have it.
link |
You're a terrifying person to go against in Judo.
link |
Like on the ground, like everything you did, that's amazing.
link |
That's really amazing.
link |
That's what made you a really fun person to watch.
link |
Cause you really went to war with these people.
link |
So you know what it's like to go a hundred percent in Judo.
link |
Cause I know what it's like to train with somebody
link |
under the mentality of,
link |
I'm going to do everything I want to do.
link |
You're going to do nothing you want to do.
link |
And you're going to accept that.
link |
Do you ever train in Judo where you let people get stuff?
link |
Of course, all the time.
link |
Even when you're sort of building up the four years,
link |
building up to the Olympics,
link |
like there's smaller guys that are throwing you in the gym
link |
and that kind of stuff.
link |
No, I never said that.
link |
That never came out of my mouth.
link |
I said, I let people do stuff.
link |
I never said smaller people throw me.
link |
Oh, you mean you let them get a grip,
link |
but then you'll position yourself on such a way
link |
that it's hopeless.
link |
The number one skillset that Judo is going to teach you
link |
is the ability to give people false hope.
link |
I'm really looking forward to the video
link |
we're going to shoot later today.
link |
Like I can let you take a grip.
link |
I can let you think that there's opportunity,
link |
but what you don't understand is
link |
by the position and angle that I'm in,
link |
it's actually false hope.
link |
Like, as long as you don't know that it is,
link |
then now I'm free to operate and do what I want.
link |
See, I competed in Judo against black belts
link |
where I would go in and it looks like
link |
I could should be able to throw them.
link |
And then you just hit a wall.
link |
And then I also saw you destroy those black belts.
link |
So there's levels to this.
link |
It's the cliche thing of there's black belts
link |
and there's black belts.
link |
You're unique in this.
link |
There may be a couple other Jidoka in America,
link |
but you're really like unique.
link |
I then get to see people that really
link |
I felt like were 10X better than me.
link |
It just feels like that sometimes.
link |
I've learned that madness and it said it'd be truly
link |
might only be just a little better,
link |
but I saw you destroy them.
link |
And it was like, holy shit.
link |
There's a thing in Judo, right?
link |
Where, you know, imagine like you as like just an adult,
link |
And I hope people can like conceptualize this
link |
when they hear this,
link |
but imagine like you're a full grown adult,
link |
even male, female, it doesn't matter,
link |
but there's a little kid in front of you,
link |
like call him five or six years old and he's acting out.
link |
Like, do you think you have the physical capability
link |
of with one hand grabbing that person or that kid
link |
and making sure that they freeze?
link |
Like they feel like they're nervous
link |
and like they can't do anything.
link |
When you fight a good Judo player, when they grab you,
link |
that's what it feels like as an adult.
link |
And even I've felt that from like certain players in Japan,
link |
like when they get a grip,
link |
I'm like, I've now lost the function of this one.
link |
That's a really good way to put it.
link |
I think I could potentially beat some of the people
link |
I've went against, but certain groups they took,
link |
it made me feel powerless.
link |
I was like, I didn't know this was possible.
link |
That kind of power was possible.
link |
And you don't even know where it originates from.
link |
Cause you're like, how does one person's hand do this
link |
where I can't use my whole arm?
link |
Or like, I can't pick up my right foot
link |
because he's holding onto my right sleeve.
link |
It was kind of on a basic animalistic sense,
link |
kind of terrifying.
link |
It's, I mean, you don't want to,
link |
part of this is like ego,
link |
but you realize that there's a food chain
link |
and you're not at the top of it.
link |
That's part of the humbling process,
link |
I think of martial arts.
link |
It's like, I think everybody,
link |
like a lot of people think they're much higher
link |
in the food chain than they are.
link |
Than they really are.
link |
And then when you realize,
link |
this is why it's a really healthy process for people
link |
that are not even competing in the Olympics
link |
to practice martial arts.
link |
Cause you realize, okay,
link |
that like putting yourself more accurately
link |
in the food chain is really good way
link |
to sort of place yourself in the rest of the world.
link |
It humbles you to the reality, the harshness of the world.
link |
It's kind of like when people look at like survival
link |
in the wilderness, it's like, oh, it's not that hard.
link |
No, you'd probably be dying in a couple of days.
link |
Same thing with like judo and martial arts.
link |
Like, yeah, it's really not that hard,
link |
but you don't know what to do yet.
link |
And so when you find out that first time
link |
that you don't know what to do,
link |
it's devastating to a lot of people,
link |
but those that like stick through it and like start to learn,
link |
it's a very powerful, like feeling that now,
link |
like you can take care of yourself.
link |
And I think I want to talk to you a few times before
link |
you talked about that.
link |
There's like, like the top three, the top five in the world.
link |
I don't know where you put them,
link |
but they're, they're another like level above.
link |
They're a whole nother tier, yeah.
link |
And the fact that you're, I mean, it's,
link |
it's so exciting to me probably
link |
because I just felt all the levels here
link |
and I've seen you and others at that height destroy those.
link |
I've seen the exponential levels to this game.
link |
It's incredible that you're, didn't quit,
link |
didn't doubt yourself and just persevered
link |
through three Olympics to get to that highest,
link |
always fighting at that like very highest of levels,
link |
but just like, you know, from the top 10 to the top five,
link |
like really breaking in through that, I don't know.
link |
What would you say it took to get to that highest of levels?
link |
Like if you, when you look back to all the weight cuts,
link |
to just the insane amount of injuries, believe it or not,
link |
I didn't really think I was there until 2013.
link |
I thought I was recognized as one of the best
link |
because I was able to fight for Oppensburg,
link |
which was the professional Bundesliga team for Germany,
link |
which is one of the top clubs in all of Europe.
link |
When they asked me to, I felt like Europe had like accepted
link |
me as like, oh, I'm a top level judo player,
link |
but I don't necessarily think that when I signed on
link |
to compete for them, that the division or the world
link |
of judo saw me as a top level judo player, right?
link |
There's a mental shift that happens along that point.
link |
And for me, my mental shift really came into play
link |
in December of 2015 before Rio.
link |
That was like, when I lost in Japan,
link |
that's when I realized like the world respects my abilities
link |
and they compete against them.
link |
They don't compete against me as a person.
link |
They compete against the idea or the persona
link |
that I've been able to establish over the years
link |
of competing in the division.
link |
Wow, so you're the, they probably have a nickname for you.
link |
You're the system of ideas and thought that they study.
link |
But they're studying me as a conceptual whole,
link |
not me as the human.
link |
Is your style relatively unique in the 81 kilogram division?
link |
It was relatively unique for Kayla, I and Jimmy
link |
Now since 2016, you can see a lot of what we used to do
link |
throughout most of Europe and even Asia.
link |
Like you're starting to see some of those techniques
link |
that you didn't see before starting to get implemented.
link |
Because when I was gearing up for 2015,
link |
I had such a slew of injuries that entire calendar year
link |
that I never should have made it to Rio.
link |
I should have called it quits at the end of 2015
link |
because I suffered that major concussion in February.
link |
I stepped on a mat in May for the first time.
link |
I lost five straight tournaments.
link |
I left the national team, went to Japan, won Pan Am games,
link |
got a bacterial infection at the Worlds,
link |
almost had my leg cut off, tore my SI joint later
link |
on that year, and then took fifth in Japan.
link |
And when you look at like the calendar year as a whole,
link |
like the world should have treated me like I was washed up.
link |
Like this guy hasn't been training,
link |
he hasn't been doing anything, but I took fifth in Japan.
link |
Now, how does a guy that hasn't trained all year
link |
take fifth at one of the hardest tournaments in the world
link |
on two weeks of training?
link |
Because they were fighting the guy I used to be,
link |
not the guy I was at the tournament,
link |
which means they were competing under the idea of like,
link |
what is he really capable of?
link |
Not what have I brought to the table today?
link |
And that just gave you the confidence.
link |
And that told me that like, well, if I can take fifth
link |
and I'm this bad at judo right now,
link |
wait until I'm healthy and I'm back in shape,
link |
then they're not gonna know what hit them.
link |
One of the essential components of being the number one
link |
in the world or up in that place is that confidence,
link |
And the rest of the world believing it.
link |
You can have all the confidence in the world,
link |
but if the rest of the room doesn't buy it, it's nothing.
link |
It's like, there's certain people, right?
link |
Oh, Tyson, Mike Tyson.
link |
They all understand he could not train
link |
and they're still scared, right?
link |
Like he doesn't have to work out that hard anymore.
link |
There's several judo, you know this way better,
link |
but from a spectator perspective,
link |
like Ilias Iliadis is like that.
link |
He's portrayed over the years.
link |
Why is everyone so scared of that guy?
link |
People were scared of you too.
link |
People just gave a certain level of respect to my skillset
link |
and whether I had a bad weight cut
link |
or didn't have a bad weight cut
link |
or not trained for the last three months,
link |
which never happened, I'm just saying,
link |
they were gonna fight the persona.
link |
And it's an important distinction
link |
when you're looking at the top five
link |
because everybody coming up,
link |
they're training against the persona, not who you are.
link |
Even I did that at a younger age.
link |
That's why I would always go to people's hometowns
link |
because I don't care about the persona.
link |
I wanna know what you do day in and day out.
link |
When I couldn't beat a Russian,
link |
I told Jimmy, send me to Russia.
link |
I need to understand and see it with my own eyes
link |
what they do, outperform,
link |
so that I can believe that I can beat them.
link |
Can I ask you on this, a small tangent.
link |
Dagestan has produced some incredible wrestlers.
link |
I don't know what the story with judo is,
link |
where the source of greatness in Russia is for judo,
link |
but what do you make of Dagestan?
link |
Why, what is it in the culture of there or Russia broadly
link |
that produces greatness?
link |
Specifically in the combat sports.
link |
I don't know, yeah, specifically in the combat sports,
link |
sorry, but I don't know if you wanna draw a distinction
link |
between wrestling and judo.
link |
I'm almost curious,
link |
do you understand the differences there in the culture?
link |
It's still a combat sport to them.
link |
They're still in that same like realm
link |
of they're taking young kids and that's what they do.
link |
So Khabib speaks very highly of judo.
link |
It's funny, Khabib, Vladimir Putin.
link |
People don't get it,
link |
but like judo is like one of the premier sports
link |
in the world, but we just don't understand it.
link |
It's not just popularity, so definitely popularity,
link |
but also like this respect.
link |
And there's a certain thing,
link |
which is why I really value judo internationally.
link |
You don't get this in the United States,
link |
but internationally there's an understanding,
link |
like later in life,
link |
when you're a scientist meeting a businessman,
link |
when you both have done judo,
link |
there's this like nod of respect.
link |
It's so interesting.
link |
There's very few sports like that.
link |
Basketball doesn't have any,
link |
I don't know almost any sport like that.
link |
And it's fascinating.
link |
Wrestling has that in the US, but it's the US only.
link |
The rest of the world doesn't do that.
link |
There's a few, like you could see that in like Iran
link |
or something like that.
link |
They'll respect wrestling in that kind of way.
link |
But judo on like a global scale
link |
is probably that only one,
link |
due to its like physicality and the hardships
link |
that you have to go through to reach that upper level.
link |
So why do you think Dagestan,
link |
why do you think Khabib is as good as he is?
link |
Is this just the raw genetics of the human
link |
or is there something about the system?
link |
It's all has to do with the system.
link |
So they grow up around fighting in all forms.
link |
They're also, I mean, their technique is exceptionally good.
link |
Because they grow up in it.
link |
They grow up in it.
link |
They don't understand anything else.
link |
So you don't have to,
link |
it's almost like you with the weight cutting.
link |
It's not like a big dramatic thing for them to fight.
link |
It's like, this is just part of life.
link |
And when you're, I don't wanna say bred into it,
link |
but when you've done it for,
link |
I wanna say like 90% of your life
link |
by the time like Khabib probably has,
link |
right from the time he could crawl,
link |
he's probably even grappling in some fashion thereof, right?
link |
When you, as grapplers,
link |
like you can look at a wrestler and having never seen
link |
this person before and go, you wrestled.
link |
It's because he's probably wrestled since he was like six.
link |
So the way he carries himself,
link |
the way his body is built,
link |
the way he grew into it was framed around wrestling, right?
link |
So the people in that culture are framed
link |
around fighting and grappling.
link |
First of all, philosophically, psychologically,
link |
but also just like the way you move your body.
link |
That means like when you're young,
link |
the people you admire move their body
link |
in a certain kind of way.
link |
And then genetically, it just, as they keep doing that,
link |
they're just gonna get better and better every generation.
link |
It's just gonna keep improving
link |
because they just keep building into that system
link |
of turning them out.
link |
And part of it, there's like cultural stuff where,
link |
I mean, it's such an interesting approach to wrestling.
link |
I really wanna travel to Dagestan and just talk to them
link |
because I happen to be able to speak Russian.
link |
Because there's less value
link |
for this kind of materialistic success
link |
that I think sometimes can get in the way of greatness,
link |
It makes coaching more difficult.
link |
It makes like following orders as an athlete more difficult.
link |
We struggle with that in USA judo.
link |
Cause you want more money,
link |
but then more money, if not applied correctly,
link |
can corrupt the system.
link |
Somehow it can split people up.
link |
It's just, it's same thing with the prestige
link |
around certain medals over others
link |
because athletes start chasing fame instead of development.
link |
Yeah, that's, I mean, the Setia brothers
link |
are famous for this, like ignoring fame,
link |
ignoring all of this, like focus on the art itself.
link |
Not even, so it's not even the medals,
link |
exactly like you're saying,
link |
just the purity of like when you're in it
link |
and let everybody else figure out their stupid medals
link |
and money and all that.
link |
Like it's not that you don't appreciate it,
link |
but you know that it comes if you focus on the art.
link |
There's a distinction when you're talking
link |
about your athletic career or really any endeavor, right?
link |
The problem with goal setting is nobody teaches the athletes
link |
or the people how to transition
link |
from the goal to reality, right?
link |
So when you look at my career as a whole,
link |
like when I was getting ready for 2008,
link |
I actually forgot to train for it.
link |
I was so happy at such a young age
link |
that I became an Olympian that that in and of itself
link |
was a goal that I thought had to be admired,
link |
had to be celebrated that, you know,
link |
the games are right around the corner.
link |
I didn't really come down off that high.
link |
You're the local optimum of just winning the trials.
link |
It's a huge thing.
link |
But then you're just focusing on the accomplishment,
link |
But at some point, right, when I went into London,
link |
I actually went into London going with,
link |
I'm gonna prove I'm the best in the world
link |
cause I believe I'm the best in the world.
link |
And I believe it from like the bottom of my soul
link |
that I'm winning this.
link |
And then you're almost like trying to tell the universe,
link |
like I'm accomplishing this thing because it's a goal.
link |
But when I went into Rio,
link |
I just accepted the fact that I was winning.
link |
Like this is happening.
link |
Like this is no longer a goal anymore.
link |
Like I anticipated, like this is happening.
link |
I can see this coming down the path
link |
because I'm anticipating that the games is happening
link |
and I'm gonna win.
link |
It's an anticipation.
link |
And there's a distinct distinction there
link |
Okay, so for people who are just watching the video of this,
link |
there should be an overlay of Young Travis.
link |
This is, you still had to make 81.
link |
Is this still a tough cut here?
link |
No, this one was relatively easy.
link |
This is going all the way back to 2008.
link |
So this is the summer before the games.
link |
This probably happened in June, I would say.
link |
So this is the Olympic trials.
link |
So in the United States,
link |
you have to, I mean, similar to like wrestling,
link |
you have to win the trials to qualify
link |
for that particular division
link |
to represent the United States.
link |
So this is, you said June before an August Olympics?
link |
So here, I just wanted to show this match
link |
because what was, there's another one.
link |
I think you do a pin,
link |
you do some nice ground work in the other one.
link |
Fighting a teammate.
link |
Fighting a teammate.
link |
Oh, there's an old school double leg.
link |
I forgot about that.
link |
And it's weird to see.
link |
So there, the Travis's opponent,
link |
and Travis is setting up here
link |
that Sayonagi posting his left arm and getting it done.
link |
That's a big, that's a big throw.
link |
You don't have too many of those big throws on video.
link |
Cause like you often on video,
link |
you're going against the best people in the world.
link |
It's tough to get like that much air.
link |
And a lot of times the ones that we do see
link |
and the part that a lot of people don't experience
link |
is a lot of those times
link |
where I threw people with that throw,
link |
it was in training camps.
link |
So by the time I got to the competition with these guys,
link |
they were playing a hundred percent defense
link |
to never let me do that.
link |
So you do this here.
link |
Are you kind of pulling him down?
link |
No, he's, I'm trying to get him to come up.
link |
But are you pulling him down to get to fake him out?
link |
I'm not doing anything with my left hand.
link |
So here the opponent is.
link |
So what I'm doing right now is his head is like in my chest.
link |
I'm pressing him to get his head to lift with my chest.
link |
So I'm pressing his hand down so I can use my chest
link |
to like pinch my scaps and roll his head up
link |
so that he wants to pick it up.
link |
And then he, I mean, doesn't he know what's coming here?
link |
Oh no, he might not.
link |
Oh no, he knew, he was a former teammate.
link |
He knew exactly what I was trying to do.
link |
And that was a really big step with your right foot.
link |
It covers about four feet in distance.
link |
And your left catches up in like perfect position.
link |
Yeah, you back it up a little bit.
link |
Keep going, keep going.
link |
Right there, this is like an important distinction
link |
between mine and everybody else's
link |
is because I split his hip,
link |
I actually, once I'm able to split,
link |
I no longer need his center of gravity below mine.
link |
Right, and when you say split,
link |
you mean you put your foot in between.
link |
I do that split, that four foot split.
link |
And then when I get my feet back together,
link |
it doesn't matter that I'm under his center of gravity
link |
That's why my chest is right around his sternum height
link |
Yeah, so there, I mean, how does he get,
link |
for people just listening to this,
link |
Travis Steps does a big, huge step, gets.
link |
Like my hip is probably right around his nipple
link |
because he's sprawled back so much.
link |
Yeah, that's right.
link |
So like, so you're, how does the physics of this work?
link |
You're violating the principle of your center of mass
link |
being under, oh, I guess somehow it is.
link |
I don't know, but he has nowhere to go.
link |
Yes, that's the kicker is the way mine works is
link |
in order for him to play an effective defense,
link |
he needs to have his feet firmly planted on the ground
link |
Otherwise he can't press into me to stop it.
link |
So when I get him to sprawl back, when I split his legs,
link |
he effectively loses that contact with the floor.
link |
Even though his feet are on the floor,
link |
they're not in a position where he can drive from them.
link |
So therefore when I flip, he flips.
link |
So there's a natural like flailing here.
link |
So he's not falling forward.
link |
You're falling forward.
link |
He's just attached to you.
link |
So like you can keep him up there
link |
and then like legs would be just flailing.
link |
Yep, one of my golden rules when I'm training
link |
and I get really tired, one of the like mantras
link |
I would always tell myself is I'm gonna put my back
link |
on your chest and then I'm gonna put my back on the floor.
link |
It's gonna be underneath me.
link |
That's a good principle to.
link |
And it, regardless of like all the chaos
link |
and how quickly things are happening,
link |
it's something I can just dumb everything down to
link |
Regardless of the gripping situation, the footwork,
link |
all of that, get my back to your chest
link |
and then put my back on the floor.
link |
So this step of getting your back to their chest,
link |
like for people who are sort of more,
link |
like for example, for people like me,
link |
who are just like amateur Judo people,
link |
like there's all kinds of ways to prevent this turn
link |
from happening, the gripping and just everything.
link |
How difficult is it at the highest level
link |
to get into this position?
link |
I mean, you make it look effortless often,
link |
but like to get to the position where you're
link |
from facing them to your back is to them.
link |
Is that like strategy?
link |
It's like anything, like if I wanted to punch you
link |
in the face, like how hard is it to really do that
link |
if you know you can just play defense and block it?
link |
The trick is to get them to play defense
link |
to something that never happened.
link |
And then you go through like another way.
link |
And then you just go through what would technically
link |
be your first plan if you planned on them playing defense.
link |
So I set the stage from the very beginning for this to work.
link |
So then this, you're celebrating here,
link |
it's a huge sort of, once a big accomplishments,
link |
big relief to qualify for the Olympics.
link |
And then you go into the Olympics
link |
and this is where I first saw Judo.
link |
And I kind of thought of them as the same
link |
as Judo and Jiu Jitsu.
link |
And I was really impressed by your performance
link |
The footage nowhere to be found these days,
link |
but at that time I think you could still,
link |
you could watch it live on NBC Olympics
link |
or somewhere like that.
link |
And I remember watching several of your matches.
link |
One of them was the match against Ole Bischoff, the German.
link |
And I remember being, it'd be nice
link |
if you can talk to that match because I don't remember it.
link |
All I remember is being frustrated.
link |
By him not letting you play Judo.
link |
So obviously you faced him again four years later
link |
and there's a lot of frustration there as well.
link |
But I remember being extra frustrated in 2008.
link |
What was that match like?
link |
So he might've been number one in the world at the time
link |
He was up there for sure, especially going into 2008.
link |
He was really high up there.
link |
And did he win gold at that Olympics?
link |
Because he silvered in London.
link |
It was the same Olympic final both in 2008 and London.
link |
Okay, so you're facing him there.
link |
Were you intimidated?
link |
What was the strategy?
link |
Can you talk to that match?
link |
Because it kind of sets the stage for the rematch in 2012.
link |
Yeah, he was somebody that I had trained with in the past.
link |
And for some reason, when it comes to him and I,
link |
when we train together,
link |
it's more of a physical altercation
link |
than a Judo training session.
link |
It's just the coaches have had to break us up a few times.
link |
Or you guys get almost angry too?
link |
It always goes farther than it should.
link |
We say hello to each other.
link |
But for some reason, when we train together,
link |
there's something about him and me that just oil and water.
link |
I don't know what it is.
link |
Could it be also the gripping?
link |
Because he's a great gripping strategist.
link |
Does he frustrate you with certain kinds of grips
link |
and then you get pissed off and then you frustrate him?
link |
And then he gets pissed off
link |
and then before you know it, somebody's kicked somebody
link |
or punched somebody in the mouth or done something.
link |
Yeah, so one of the only evidences we have online
link |
of you fighting him is your foot in his groin area
link |
is the only thing we have from that Olympics.
link |
And to answer everybody's question, yes, it was deliberate.
link |
Now you can say this.
link |
But yeah, I remember there being a lot of frustration.
link |
You're actually going for a lot of stuff
link |
like sacrifice throws.
link |
I mean, maybe you're not going
link |
for the highest scoring epons,
link |
but you're just trying to shake things up,
link |
if I remember correctly.
link |
Yeah, because when he, I was so young then that,
link |
and he was in his prime really at that time, right?
link |
He must've been 24, 25, 26,
link |
world medalist, European champion at the time.
link |
And when he would grab me,
link |
I had that sense of feeling stuck.
link |
Like I was strong enough if I used all my strength
link |
to not let him do anything,
link |
but then you can't be offensive
link |
when you're using all your strength
link |
to hold onto the situation.
link |
So I was getting really aggravated
link |
because I couldn't generate any offense
link |
with every time I felt like I gained an advantage
link |
in the gripping scenario,
link |
he would take some obscure grip somewhere that was like,
link |
well, now I've got to go address this thing,
link |
give up what I gained and I have to go back.
link |
And if I were to think about watching the match now,
link |
it probably looked like a lot of flailing
link |
because we're just trying to generate enough
link |
to not get a penalty,
link |
but also not enough to where he could counter it.
link |
Did you think you could beat him
link |
like when you were walking into the match?
link |
Until I gripped him for the first time,
link |
like, cause I had trained with him before,
link |
he felt stronger and more in shape
link |
than I've ever felt him that day.
link |
At that Olympics, which begs a whole nother question.
link |
But I remember when he grabbed me for that first time,
link |
I went, this is different.
link |
And there was a sense of panic at the time
link |
cause I was like, holy crap, where did this come from?
link |
This is not the guy that I've trained with that I expected.
link |
Cause it was a definite like level change
link |
in like his ability, strength, speed, and stamina.
link |
Like looking back at that, can you explain that?
link |
Is it just you being more, less confident
link |
because it was the Olympics?
link |
It was, is there some kind of routine that he followed
link |
to like really level up in intensity
link |
for this particular event?
link |
I've been told that he only gets to like his prime
link |
for like really big events.
link |
Like he doesn't train like year round like I would train,
link |
but when it comes to like the games,
link |
he doesn't do social media, he doesn't work,
link |
he lives, breathes, eats his training for the games,
link |
which could institute that level.
link |
Is there a, like Dan Gable famously said,
link |
like the one loss he had in college,
link |
he was doing a lot of media and stuff.
link |
Back then there was no social media.
link |
That was a huge mistake for him.
link |
Do you do social media, do you do like?
link |
At that, at this point?
link |
Well, at that time it was like AOL.
link |
I don't know, what's 2008?
link |
I didn't even have a Facebook page, a MySpace,
link |
nothing at this point.
link |
I got my first Facebook page from the USOC in 2012.
link |
When I went through the media thing,
link |
the lady was like, you have to have it.
link |
I go, I don't want it.
link |
I don't like people.
link |
I want to deal with the people.
link |
What am I supposed to do?
link |
You know, like the social part of the social media.
link |
I have to bring this up because,
link |
and then you went on to face Tiago Camilo.
link |
You lost that match, but he went on to win bronze.
link |
That's also an interesting one, but we can skip ahead.
link |
I just remember being really impressed
link |
both by your groundwork.
link |
That was a match I should have won.
link |
I should have won that.
link |
I was, if you don't know judo,
link |
you would visually watch that and be like, I'm winning.
link |
But he was technically winning on the scoreboard.
link |
So it is what it is.
link |
But the point that he got that solidified his win,
link |
yes, it was a point back in those days.
link |
So I can't say anything, but like my shoulder
link |
nicked the ground.
link |
So it's like, I don't know.
link |
Yeah. A lot of the stories of your Olympic career
link |
is like from a fan perspective,
link |
it seems like you should have won
link |
or you very close to could have won.
link |
And there was a lot of frustration in you
link |
and your game being like shut down in certain ways.
link |
But like the thing that immediately grabbed me in 2008
link |
was how much, something about the way you approached judo,
link |
how much you wanted to win.
link |
Cause I was young then.
link |
I was, when I was at this time of my career,
link |
I was out to like win.
link |
Like there was no like, I'm going to grab you,
link |
I'm going to throw you.
link |
And if not, you're going to go through a battle.
link |
You're going to make sure you earned it.
link |
It so happened that you competing in 2008,
link |
I was, I became a fan of yours at that moment.
link |
And since then, I kind of knew about judo.
link |
My university had a judo club
link |
and I kind of knew about jujitsu from mixed martial arts.
link |
And obviously I wrestled for many years before
link |
and I love wrestling,
link |
but there's something about you competing that made me,
link |
well, there's no other way to say it,
link |
but it like changed the direction of my life.
link |
Cause it forced me to say, you know what?
link |
I'm going to start judo and jujitsu.
link |
And first of all, for that, I'm really grateful,
link |
but it's fascinating to think,
link |
because this kid who's 22 years old,
link |
I'm sure I'm not the only one that you've influenced,
link |
like you've changed the direction of my life.
link |
And there could be huge number of others like that.
link |
I mean, that's the power of you as an individual
link |
at the, on the Olympic stage.
link |
You ever think about the pressure of that?
link |
Did you, did you think as a 22 year old,
link |
there's a bunch of people,
link |
like I know I'm not the only one who changed.
link |
I just happened to have like a microphone recently.
link |
You know what I mean?
link |
Like, is that, it's fascinating to think about, right?
link |
Like you, perhaps you didn't think about this.
link |
It's just, it's just a judo match,
link |
but you like, you influenced hundreds of thousands of people
link |
Is that interesting?
link |
It's, it's not something that really hit me
link |
until 2012 when I lost,
link |
because that's when like,
link |
I would say like the world felt bad for me at that point.
link |
And that's when you knew that like people were watching
link |
and people were inspired by the loss
link |
because of how much went into that match.
link |
Because, you know, the 99% of us who watched it
link |
thought I won, except for the 1% of the people
link |
who were considered judges at that day in the event.
link |
But I mean, that's the, the win or lose,
link |
that, that was a really inspiring match.
link |
And that's when it, that's when it dinged that like,
link |
because I don't, I don't watch something
link |
and really get inspired by like the person and the act.
link |
It's like a, it's an accumulative thing.
link |
But for a lot of people, like when they watch
link |
how much goes into it,
link |
and then when I broke down on the match,
link |
like the amount of suffering that happens
link |
when you lose a match like that.
link |
And then, you know, really coming back and winning in Rio,
link |
there's a trend of people who were inspired
link |
that knew about London.
link |
And then when they found out I won in Rio,
link |
that's when like people like in droves felt like
link |
they could overcome their own personal obstacles
link |
to still achieve something
link |
because they've witnessed somebody who's fallen
link |
and gotten back up.
link |
But it's not something that you think about like on the day.
link |
It's when you look back and you go, oh, cause and effect.
link |
I wonder if you can comment on that.
link |
I'm trying to realize and live up to the fact
link |
that there's like young people that come up to me
link |
and I'm starting to realize like certain words I say
link |
will have a long lasting impact on them.
link |
Cause you say it as like, you don't even,
link |
it doesn't just, the whim.
link |
Some of them might come back 30 years later
link |
and a word I said was the reason they quit a thing
link |
and started the new thing that led them
link |
to become their true self, like to find success,
link |
all that kind of stuff like.
link |
On the flip side though, some people based on the actions
link |
that we do today, even with this cast
link |
will alter the course of their lives forever.
link |
I had a guy one time, was it after London?
link |
It must've been after London.
link |
He actually found me on Instagram,
link |
wrote me what seemed to be like a dissertation on Instagram
link |
about how much I disrespected him
link |
14 years earlier because I didn't step on a podium
link |
to take a picture after winning a tournament
link |
And I'm thinking to myself, like at the time,
link |
like having dinner with my family
link |
because I had to leave the next morning
link |
was more important to me as a person,
link |
not thinking about who you potentially will become
link |
and the actions of whatever you do today,
link |
if you do become quote unquote famous
link |
or somebody in a spotlight,
link |
that that could come back to bite you.
link |
To me, I don't know about you,
link |
that's super motivating,
link |
like not to be a lesser version of myself ever.
link |
Just be on top of your game, whatever that game is,
link |
be on top of your game when you interacting with people
link |
and when you're just in your own private life.
link |
I'm trying to make sure
link |
that I'm the exactly same person privately
link |
as I am publicly and like making sure I'm on point.
link |
I see like just hanging out with Joe Rogan a lot.
link |
I see how he's, first of all, the exact same person.
link |
And second, he like walks around
link |
and there's like a huge number of fans
link |
and you'll just take pictures and like, it's very cool.
link |
And it's very cognizant of like certain words he says,
link |
especially young people, like they're going to take that.
link |
And that's going to be a memory for them
link |
for a couple of years that might be influential
link |
for the rest of their life.
link |
So I don't know, that's a cool responsibility,
link |
not to fuck it up.
link |
But anyway, I bring all that up to just say, thank you.
link |
So even if you like were frustrated
link |
that you didn't win a medal,
link |
at least you influenced one silly Russian kid
link |
to get into the martial arts.
link |
And what happens when you get into martial arts,
link |
it alters the direction of your life.
link |
Mine for the better.
link |
Okay, so let's go to London 2012 Olympics.
link |
One of the most dramatic judo battles of all time rematch.
link |
So you've reached the semifinals once again
link |
to face the German, Ole Bischoff.
link |
Do you mind if we step through that match a little bit?
link |
Yeah, by all means.
link |
I've only ever watched the entire thing one time
link |
just because, fucking.
link |
So for context, for the listener,
link |
Travis, first of all, you don't like losing.
link |
I think that's fair to say.
link |
You know, the hard part with this match
link |
is because I went into this Olympics thinking,
link |
I'm gonna fucking win the Olympics.
link |
I'm the best in the world.
link |
I never in my right mind thought,
link |
oh, I'm gonna win a medal.
link |
Like that never crossed my mind.
link |
So it's like, I would have rather him just fucking beat me.
link |
Because then I lost.
link |
So here the referees, as many people thought,
link |
robbed you of a victory,
link |
but it was also a really close battle.
link |
Again, with many of the elements of frustration as 2008
link |
in terms of strategically and gripping wise.
link |
And it was just a fascinating battle that went to overtime.
link |
So can you set the context?
link |
So what did the bracket look like?
link |
Who were the players here?
link |
Who did you beat leading up to this match?
link |
As you walk onto the mat, what happened the hours before?
link |
As you're standing there.
link |
How bad is it when two people are standing like this?
link |
That fucking guy, man.
link |
But this bracket was really interesting
link |
if you look at like the backstory of 81 kilos,
link |
like leading up to the Olympics, right?
link |
Because at this point in time,
link |
I was inside the top 10 at all times,
link |
eight, seven, five, four, sixes.
link |
I fell out of there sometimes due to injuries,
link |
but I always climbed back in.
link |
There was another guy from Azerbaijan
link |
that was the Olympic champion at 73 kilos in 2008.
link |
And the entire division got rocked by match one
link |
because his first match was with Antoine Valus Fortier
link |
And everybody who saw the draw come out was like,
link |
the Azerbaijanis gonna win it.
link |
He's the former Olympic champion.
link |
He's pretty much won most of the major events,
link |
including at 90 kilos, because he just had smooth judo.
link |
And match one rolls around, match two rolls around.
link |
Antoine's in the shoot and he's looking around
link |
and he's like, the Azerbaijanis not here.
link |
Well, where is he?
link |
No joke, he runs into the venue a match before,
link |
throws his gi on and runs onto the Olympic platform.
link |
Loses to the Canadian
link |
in like a three minute golden score battle.
link |
So do you think he warmed up?
link |
He literally ran into the venue,
link |
threw his gi on and ran out, did no judo.
link |
And there you see Antoine losing in the quarters.
link |
So how good was Antoine?
link |
At this point in time, this is,
link |
I believe his first international medal
link |
was the Olympic games.
link |
So I don't think he'd ever meddled in Paris.
link |
He went into this bracket unranked,
link |
beating the ranked guy first round because he,
link |
I don't know if he missed the bus.
link |
I don't know if he was off his cycle and planned on losing
link |
cause he didn't want to test positive.
link |
There's a lot of like questionable things out there
link |
that could have potentially caused him to,
link |
run onto the Olympic platform for match one.
link |
But it catapulted Antoine into like a belief
link |
that like, I beat the seated guy, I'm ready.
link |
And that was like a turning point in the Canadian's career
link |
just as a whole, right?
link |
That's that everybody has a defining moment.
link |
Like mine was when I beat Bischoff in Dusseldorf
link |
at the grand prix for Germany after 2008, right?
link |
I beat the Olympic champion in, on his home soil
link |
to go win the entire tournament.
link |
So we all have like those moments.
link |
It's just when it happens at the games,
link |
it throws the bracket like into a tailspin.
link |
Cause typically you'd know like who's going to beat who,
link |
where it's going to happen.
link |
And when you look at my quarter final against the Brazilian,
link |
what most people don't know is I was,
link |
I was so thankful I had that match.
link |
Most people would never in a million years be like,
link |
I want to fight the world number one at the Olympic games.
link |
That's what I want to do.
link |
I want to be the eighth seed fighting the world number one
link |
cause I'm going to win.
link |
I was pissed off at him.
link |
I was so angry because we,
link |
we were at the Pan Am's I think the year before
link |
and there was a team tournament and I wanted to fight him.
link |
I had lost the quarters to a Cuban, I think.
link |
In like the first gripping exchange,
link |
he threw me with a drop sale out of nowhere.
link |
So I wanted my hands on the Brazilian and the team match.
link |
Well, the Brazilian team is warming up.
link |
So I walk up to him, no joke.
link |
I walked up to him and I go, you're fighting.
link |
And he goes, not today.
link |
And I went, are you fucking kidding me?
link |
I taped up that you're the only fucking guy I want to fight
link |
and you're going to fucking sit in the stands
link |
and read a goddamn book.
link |
I carried that anger cause I never fought him until this day.
link |
I was fucking pissed.
link |
I was ready to beat him.
link |
That's right, I forgot he was the world number one.
link |
Cause I remember being really excited at that match.
link |
How did you beat him?
link |
I threw him with two hands on the same side, collar,
link |
I cross gripped, I yanked him behind me and I threw him.
link |
And then the match ended 30 seconds later.
link |
I thought, okay, if I'm remembering correctly,
link |
I thought, okay, this guy might actually win gold.
link |
That's what made, for me as a spectator,
link |
remembering now the next match that much more like painful.
link |
And then the fans of judo that really followed the sport,
link |
the stats, when you look at the games and my draws,
link |
I had the worst possible draw
link |
as you ever could have imagined.
link |
At both London and Rio, I fought the world number one
link |
to get to the final or into the semis or past the semis.
link |
And everybody I fought in the draw
link |
either beat me the last time we fought
link |
or I had never fought before.
link |
So I always held a loss going onto the mat
link |
at the Olympic games.
link |
How'd you feel about that, by the way?
link |
Like what were your feelings
link |
about facing the Brazilian first?
link |
Well, that was match three.
link |
In London, I fought the Slovenian guy first round
link |
Where'd he beat me?
link |
Was it the Worlds?
link |
Might've been the Worlds.
link |
And then, Church's Ville, I fought in the second round
link |
who threw me for Wazari in Japan.
link |
And then, Leandro, who I don't think I ever fought,
link |
who was world number one.
link |
That avoided fighting me at the team tournament.
link |
But I mean, every single Olympics you've fought
link |
and you really stepped up.
link |
It's the only tournament I've ever prepped for.
link |
Mentally and physically and just the whole thing?
link |
We never trained through this tournament
link |
like we did for the others.
link |
Or I would go into it injured.
link |
All right, well, let's talk about,
link |
you're standing there next to the German.
link |
He looked always smaller than you,
link |
but you said like strong.
link |
So what are you feeling now, Jimmy Pedro behind you?
link |
I was fucking ready to take his head off.
link |
Did you have an idea of what you're gonna do?
link |
Did you try to, do you're thinking of winning by Ypon?
link |
Were you thinking like going for big throws,
link |
or take him in deep waters, outgrip him?
link |
What were you thinking?
link |
We were about to have a battle
link |
and I wasn't gonna throw him until he broke mentally.
link |
That was, there was no like,
link |
oh, this is gonna be a clean throw.
link |
That was never, that was never the thought process.
link |
So here, you know there's going to be a lot of gripping.
link |
So we're seeing a shit ton of gripping.
link |
And right here, he throws it, bang, close fisted.
link |
You got a lot of adrenaline.
link |
Like, you don't look serious, you just look like.
link |
I'm looking at the ref like,
link |
cause he keeps telling me to get up.
link |
I'm like, I have blood running down my face.
link |
Here, there's blood.
link |
See, and he's like, oh yeah, go fix it.
link |
And that's on your eyebrow somewhere?
link |
Yeah, he split it just underneath it.
link |
So you split your eyebrow.
link |
And so in judo, they don't, they're allergic to blood,
link |
probably for a good reason.
link |
But they, so now you have to try to figure out
link |
how to tape that up.
link |
Which already sets up one of the most bad ass
link |
looks in judo history.
link |
First 15 seconds, busted my eye open.
link |
Was that getting in the way of your eyesight at all or no?
link |
Damn, he looks good at gripping.
link |
How difficult is it to get a grip on that guy?
link |
Like I'm struggling just to get my hand in the collar
link |
and he wasn't even blocking it.
link |
Is he being cagey?
link |
Remember like, is he interested in offense?
link |
He's a very cagey, you know, methodical player.
link |
Like he, he never opens himself up.
link |
You grabbed the leg as part of a combination.
link |
And people have told me that he's actually very good
link |
at throwing people.
link |
So, but he just doesn't show it at these.
link |
Cause he, he doesn't care how he wins.
link |
He cares that he wins.
link |
Which makes him very difficult to beat.
link |
Cause he knows when you've strategized to do that,
link |
where you look at the rule set and you develop a plan
link |
to get through the matches,
link |
then you've really got to figure out a way
link |
to get that person off that game plan.
link |
You know, whether you get ahead by a penalty or something.
link |
Like, he wouldn't give me the sleeve,
link |
so I grabbed all of his fingers.
link |
In which I open like, like this way or?
link |
I grabbed them the other way and I started lifting them.
link |
Like I start, nice.
link |
Reverse play and mercy.
link |
Oh, this is great.
link |
Cause he wouldn't give me the sleeve
link |
and I needed an attack.
link |
And then I'm like, okay, I can't hold onto this forever
link |
cause that judge is going to see it.
link |
So let me just do a quick throw here
link |
while I'm using the fingers in the mercy grip.
link |
You're holding on.
link |
And then I just sit out.
link |
And then he goes to get up and I go to get on top
link |
Yeah, it looks like I elbow him.
link |
Did you do it kind of?
link |
At the time, I never knew this happened
link |
until after I watched this like three or four years later.
link |
Didn't even know, I didn't even feel it.
link |
So he's legitimately angry here.
link |
And of course you can't, you can't move.
link |
Why would you move?
link |
This moment right there is gold.
link |
If you're not watching this on video, you're missing out.
link |
You never get this in judo.
link |
No, I don't know if that's ever happened.
link |
That little face off.
link |
Especially on a stage like this.
link |
And then he brings us in to like talk to us
link |
and he's like, hey, we're good, right?
link |
Like, you guys aren't about to do
link |
what I think you're about to do.
link |
And he's like, hey, shake hands again.
link |
Cause the first time we did it, that wasn't good enough.
link |
Well, you gotta do it again.
link |
The heartbreaking part about this
link |
and why the IJF switched it to an unlimited golden score.
link |
Because we fought five minutes
link |
through the entire normal part of the match.
link |
And then we did the entire overtime period of three minutes.
link |
Not one penalty was given.
link |
No gripping infractions, no false attacks,
link |
like no stallings.
link |
Nobody was really backing up.
link |
I mean, he was, you know.
link |
So what was Jimmy telling you here?
link |
Or was he talking to you at all?
link |
He's not allowed to talk during medical things
link |
and my nose is now broken.
link |
But he's also, oh, the nose is broken.
link |
I caught an elbow from him.
link |
Glad his face is clean.
link |
And right here, I was pissed.
link |
I was so angry at the medic
link |
because he's fumbling around and I'm like,
link |
my whole plan is to break the German mentally.
link |
You gotta hurry up with the tape, man.
link |
He's supposed to be tired.
link |
He's not supposed to be resting.
link |
Is Jimmy yelling here?
link |
No, not here, not here, but during the match.
link |
And you can see I just take it from him
link |
and I'm like, give it to me.
link |
I'm gonna do it myself.
link |
How scared is the medic?
link |
He's like, this guy's gonna kill me.
link |
He can't even tear the tape.
link |
Look how nervous he is.
link |
We made fun of him for this so much throughout the years.
link |
Still do to this day.
link |
All right, here we go.
link |
Oh, you look great getting geared up.
link |
Can't really see, don't care.
link |
Was there some outcome in your mind
link |
that you could possibly beat him on the ground
link |
with a submission or a pin?
link |
You knew you were gonna have to throw him.
link |
I knew I was gonna have to.
link |
If I was gonna throw him or armbar him
link |
or pin him, whatever the case may be,
link |
it was gonna be his mental like, I'm just tired of this.
link |
He's too cagey of a player.
link |
He's too experienced.
link |
He has to mentally make that choice to give that inch.
link |
And then you just have to be ready to take it.
link |
So I was just waiting for it.
link |
And so now this is four minutes in, one minute left.
link |
Oh, is that in your game plan two potentials
link |
like sumi gaeshi, like the sacrifice throws to him?
link |
Cause the whole point of that technique
link |
and the sacrifice throws wasn't
link |
because I thought I was gonna throw him,
link |
but it disrupts the pattern enough
link |
to like get him to make a potential mistake.
link |
Like see, he should have gotten Ashido there.
link |
Hands in the face.
link |
But again, that's just part of judo.
link |
He poked me in the elbow.
link |
This is a rough match.
link |
Does he act at all or no?
link |
Like, was he acting frustrated or anything like that?
link |
It was all like, he's like acting for the ref.
link |
You know what I mean?
link |
Like, oh, that, all that kind of stuff.
link |
You're just going in hard, nonstop,
link |
like angry, aggressive, feeling cardio here at all.
link |
I don't, I didn't get tired during this.
link |
And then just always pressing for.
link |
Now we're into golden score.
link |
12 minutes and 38 seconds later.
link |
Yeah, you think about every judo exchange, right?
link |
Every time we grip up, every time we attack,
link |
sometimes it can take longer to get back to the line
link |
than the entire exchange.
link |
So the more aggression, the more exchanges you have,
link |
the longer the time stretches.
link |
Then here, the six seconds left in golden score,
link |
your tape is now yellow and red
link |
with sweat and blood, literally, and time is out.
link |
Now, what are you thinking here?
link |
Do you think you won the match?
link |
I thought I won the match a minute ago.
link |
I remember thinking to myself,
link |
like if this goes to the flags, I won.
link |
No doubt in my mind.
link |
Because I felt like the whole time,
link |
like I was going to him, right?
link |
He was never coming at me.
link |
Yeah, that's the way it felt.
link |
And like, that's the way it felt body language wise,
link |
just the intensity, how fast you're moving towards him.
link |
You're constantly going for throws.
link |
Now, if you want to rewind that,
link |
we can talk about the whole,
link |
because it's a part of this clip.
link |
So wait a minute, they all went blue.
link |
So in judo, there's three referees,
link |
two on the side, one in the center,
link |
and they all vote on who won.
link |
And now let's pause it right there.
link |
Now, the way this is supposed to work,
link |
they raise their flags, they do like a one, two count,
link |
and then on three, they all raise it together.
link |
Now, as a little pretext to this entire match,
link |
up until this point, not one match at the Olympic Games
link |
has ever been a split decision.
link |
Meaning out of three people,
link |
not one of them voted against the other group members.
link |
So they were all unified blue or all unified white.
link |
Which is statistically difficult to imagine.
link |
It's almost like they had a referee meeting and said,
link |
it's better for the Olympics.
link |
To never have a split.
link |
So the question becomes,
link |
if you would click that frame by frame, right?
link |
So right now we have all the refs with their flags out
link |
and then click that.
link |
So the middle guy starts.
link |
He is all the way up.
link |
The other side judges haven't moved.
link |
We now have one side ref all the way up.
link |
Then we have a third side ref all the way up.
link |
So there's a time point
link |
when the middle guy has the flag all the way up.
link |
If not 80, 90% of the way there.
link |
Then the other one does.
link |
And then the third one goes.
link |
So now the question becomes who really,
link |
like did the outside refs really have an opinion?
link |
Or were they told to wait for the center one to start
link |
and then lift whatever flag the center ref picked?
link |
This is very unfortunate.
link |
It's very, honestly, it's very possible
link |
that they had this meeting.
link |
This is the problem with the Olympics.
link |
They sometimes, it's also the problem in the Soviet Union
link |
They think the committee knows what's good for the people
link |
So they decide universally
link |
as opposed to letting the magic of the Olympics
link |
But nevertheless, in this case,
link |
the center ref decided blue.
link |
Like what do you think?
link |
Do you think it's just a shitty call?
link |
He has the right to pick.
link |
But the problem is the other two I don't think did.
link |
And so when you do this frame by frame again,
link |
I can see from my own perspective two of the refs.
link |
And I see them both blue.
link |
So when you fast forward that a little bit
link |
to get to all the flags, I see the two go blue.
link |
And I go, I look over and I look at the other guy
link |
and I'm like, really?
link |
I fought for eight minutes and I can't even get a vote.
link |
I didn't even get a penalty.
link |
I can't even get a vote.
link |
And that's when I broke.
link |
I like, oh, I couldn't believe it.
link |
And I'm not gonna lie, he looked shocked.
link |
And here you're on your knees.
link |
But I think it's the end.
link |
That was such an amazing match.
link |
It was such a war.
link |
I mean, both people can't believe what happened.
link |
That's the, and like, honestly,
link |
I wish we had the rules that we do today,
link |
as far as the unlimited golden score,
link |
because I would have loved to have seen
link |
what would have happened.
link |
What was Jimmy saying here to you?
link |
I mean, I guess there's nothing to say.
link |
He was kind of apologizing for the way
link |
Cause he knows how badly you want it.
link |
And he felt I deserved to win it.
link |
Based on like, you know, what happened.
link |
But he probably with all his experience
link |
knows that this is what the Olympics are about.
link |
The refs sometimes.
link |
I mean, that's the magic of it, man.
link |
Well, and at the same time we're at,
link |
we're in the Olympic semi final
link |
in a sport that's dominated by certain continents.
link |
And when you look at the three refs on the mat,
link |
they're all European.
link |
You're telling me there couldn't have been one Pan Am,
link |
one African, one Oceana, you know, different.
link |
Like, why'd they all have to be European?
link |
But to be fair, it's back to your sauna story.
link |
You've dealt with this stuff before.
link |
And you've won over this stuff before.
link |
And that's why, like, I was broken for life.
link |
And you thought you won here, that was.
link |
And when I hindered on that for a year and a half,
link |
like I couldn't even stand, I was done.
link |
But I'm pretty sure there's a slow motion replay
link |
on this when I watched it.
link |
Hey, he's all excited, that fucking guy.
link |
And he's all happy.
link |
Hey, hey, hi guys.
link |
Yeah, so here's like.
link |
Look at those teeth.
link |
Slow motion replay of the flag being raised,
link |
the heart being broken, Travis just bending over.
link |
Right here, watch.
link |
Watch his reaction.
link |
Like, he, like, you could see his mouth, like,
link |
open in awe, like, really?
link |
And he's looking at two refs just like I am.
link |
He didn't celebrate until he looked at the third one
link |
and said, oh, all three.
link |
So you think he knew he lost?
link |
I think in his head, like,
link |
I don't think he really believed he was winning.
link |
He did enough to win, yeah.
link |
Because when his mouth dropped, like,
link |
oh yeah, hey, all three.
link |
Like, that's not really the reaction you would give.
link |
Yeah, I mean, that was,
link |
that's one of the greatest matches I've ever seen.
link |
I mean, obviously it's painful for you,
link |
but that pain, first of all, sets the stage for 2016.
link |
But even without that,
link |
I think it was just a beautiful story at the Olympics.
link |
You've still did incredible job at that Olympics.
link |
You stood toe to toe.
link |
I think in hindsight, having lost that match
link |
did more for me and more for the sport.
link |
As a whole, me losing that match.
link |
I mean, stories aren't about winning.
link |
Stories are about the fighting.
link |
So, and that made one hell of a story.
link |
But it also has to do with, you know,
link |
you know, treachery is probably not the right word to use.
link |
It's probably the wrong word entirely to use.
link |
But because of the conflict in the match
link |
and because of how the refs handled the match there
link |
at the end, it created controversy
link |
that was spoken about for months on world media, right?
link |
I remember articles being written about the Olympics
link |
and, you know, the refing and how it was corrupt
link |
and that match was one of them.
link |
There was another one in fencing
link |
where like something happened with the timer
link |
where one of the fencers, I guess what happens in fencing,
link |
the timer resets up a second if it's down.
link |
So the fencer got one second played out,
link |
I think like 27 or 28 times and then one on like 30.
link |
So like there was like clock fixing for fencing.
link |
There was this match that I think just got publicity,
link |
Publicity is publicity for judo.
link |
And then you came back to, I mean,
link |
this is the hard thing after this heartbreak
link |
to step up and continue fighting, right?
link |
I really, really struggled.
link |
Like unbelievably struggled from 2012 to like 2014.
link |
I almost quit numerous times.
link |
I mean, at one point I got so mad at the IGF
link |
feeling like they were fucking me every step of the way.
link |
I threw a water bottle at a referee after a match.
link |
I cussed out a referee one time on a mat.
link |
I got suspended from the sport
link |
because I was just so angry at that point in time.
link |
And IGF is the International Judo Federation
link |
and are they the people that supply the referees
link |
basically like the certification?
link |
They kind of run the sport on a global scale.
link |
So you sent a few emails 2014, 15, basically quitting.
link |
One of them said I'm mentally and physically broken.
link |
Another said, well, the subject line, I'm done.
link |
The weight cuts didn't break you.
link |
So if this broke you,
link |
you were really going through a hard time.
link |
I was like, you know what?
link |
We're just gonna like dumb it down a little bit
link |
and get some wins under our belt.
link |
I'm gonna go to a world cup,
link |
which is like three stages down or four stages down
link |
from like the Olympic games.
link |
Like this should be like a cake walk.
link |
Like making the final of a world cup
link |
should be a walk in the park.
link |
I barely beat a 16 year old kid, barely.
link |
Then I got smoked in the second round.
link |
I got thrown three times.
link |
I was like, I'm fucking done.
link |
They changed all the fucking rules.
link |
They fucked me out of the Olympics.
link |
Like, what am I supposed to do?
link |
And it was at that moment when I wrote the email
link |
where I remember sitting at a bar,
link |
I don't drink by the way,
link |
but I was sitting at a bar at the hotel sending this email
link |
and I got a response back from Jimmy and he goes,
link |
well, just stay for the training camp,
link |
go to Germany and then whatever happens,
link |
don't worry about it.
link |
We'll talk when you get home.
link |
I was like, fuck that, fuck these people, fuck the rules.
link |
I don't fucking care anymore.
link |
I'm just gonna do judo the way I wanna do judo.
link |
If I fucking get shit out, fuck them.
link |
That was my response.
link |
Can you become an Olympic champion?
link |
Can you become an Olympic medalist?
link |
With that kind of thinking, you think or no?
link |
Was that, that's counterproductive?
link |
Okay, just checking because maybe that's also liberating.
link |
The expectation was no longer
link |
that Travis is gonna win this tournament.
link |
The expectation was Travis is gonna come home
link |
and be fucking pissed off
link |
and we're gonna have to figure out
link |
how to manage a pissed off person that's trying to quit
link |
that shouldn't be quitting.
link |
And did people still believe
link |
that you can be a medalist again?
link |
Like who believed that?
link |
Jimmy believed it, the team managers believed it,
link |
some of my teammates still believed it,
link |
my training partners still did,
link |
but they're not the ones that are cutting the weight,
link |
flying around, feeling like all of your Judo
link |
is now null and void, right?
link |
Because at this point, they took away leg grabs entirely.
link |
You couldn't break a grip with two hands, right?
link |
The meta of Judo has changed again, right?
link |
So I got fucked out of it.
link |
They took away how I did Judo again
link |
and now it's just got more difficult.
link |
So when I'm sitting in the hotel and I'm sending this email,
link |
I remember being at the training camp,
link |
I was like, I don't even fucking care what the rules are,
link |
I'm just gonna fucking throw people,
link |
I don't even care if I'm cheating,
link |
doesn't matter to me, I'll just play stupid, right?
link |
So I just started going back and doing Judo
link |
without the leg grabs,
link |
but with all the same gripping that I was doing beforehand.
link |
And then when I got to Germany,
link |
I was like, I don't fucking care.
link |
I was like, if I gotta cheat to win,
link |
then I gotta fucking cheat to win.
link |
If I get sheeted out, then I get sheeted out
link |
and I won Germany.
link |
Which event in Germany?
link |
The German Grand Prix, which was a week
link |
after losing the World Cup.
link |
Because I was trying to do Judo around the new rule set.
link |
I wasn't just trying to do Judo, right?
link |
Because when you get to the highest level,
link |
your game tends to morph around
link |
what can you can or cannot get away with.
link |
I was more focused on trying to figure out
link |
what I can and can't get away with
link |
and I stopped actively doing Judo.
link |
Once I said, fuck whatever the rule changes are,
link |
I'm just gonna keep doing Judo
link |
the way I know how to do Judo
link |
and if I get a penalty, then so be it.
link |
And so that win, that started the road back.
link |
The road back, yeah.
link |
Cause now it's like, I don't care if you penalize me or not
link |
because I'm gonna throw that guy anyways.
link |
I'm gonna beat him anyways.
link |
And if I get a Shido for doing something wrong,
link |
then I'll just stop doing that one thing
link |
and just keep doing all the other things
link |
that they told me I probably shouldn't be doing
link |
but they're not calling me on it
link |
so I'm just gonna keep doing it.
link |
Well, you found yourself at the 2016 Olympics.
link |
Was that ever a doubt, by the way,
link |
after this, after 2014 in Germany?
link |
I had a lot of doubt after the concussion in 2015.
link |
I remember when I first came back
link |
after four months of nothingness
link |
that even trying to train,
link |
the room would start to tilt the world on me.
link |
And then when I finally got over that
link |
and I could start doing things again,
link |
I stepped on the mat for the Pan Ams
link |
and I was like, drowning's not the right word
link |
but everything was being done in such a slow motion.
link |
I had sandbags everywhere that I just couldn't keep up.
link |
Yeah, I remember fighting the Brazilian
link |
in the semifinal of Pan Ams.
link |
I was halfway through this match
link |
and I'm just like, eyes roll up,
link |
I'm like, I'm just gonna fucking wing it.
link |
And I just fucking winged it
link |
and I got countered and thrown free pwn
link |
and I was like, I don't even know what to do.
link |
And I couldn't even think clearly.
link |
And that's when I was like, I may not come back.
link |
You don't have control over how to come back from this.
link |
It's like, it's just your mind
link |
and it's not operating correctly.
link |
It's not like I can like,
link |
oh, my right hand's not working because it's fractured.
link |
Let me figure out a way I can not use that.
link |
Like when your mind's not working,
link |
like it's the one thing you need.
link |
Like you gotta have it.
link |
So I can work through anything else.
link |
I needed that though.
link |
And so how did you come back from that time?
link |
That's when I wrote another email and I was like,
link |
I'm fucking off team USA.
link |
I'm not fucking, I'm all done with USA judo.
link |
I'm done with the tour.
link |
I was like, I quit.
link |
Well, I'm gonna go do my own thing.
link |
They were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
link |
Olympics is in like a year.
link |
Like let's talk about this again
link |
cause it's the second time I've tried to quit
link |
in like two years.
link |
So then we sit down in Jimmy's office and he's like,
link |
whoa, whoa, whoa, you can't quit.
link |
You're gonna kick yourself if you don't go to Rio.
link |
I'm telling you right now, don't do that to yourself.
link |
Let's figure out a way of like doing this.
link |
And I was like, because when we trained before,
link |
we did it as a unit, right?
link |
We all went to the same tournaments.
link |
We all went to the same training camps.
link |
And I'm like, you guys are treating me
link |
like I'm the same player I used to be.
link |
I go, I don't, I'm not operating
link |
at the level you think I'm operating at.
link |
I go, I can't do that.
link |
And he goes, well, what do you wanna do?
link |
And I go, I'll tell you what Jimmy,
link |
you know I'm being serious because my answer
link |
is something you'd never would have expected.
link |
I go, why don't you just send me to Japan for three weeks?
link |
And he was like, really?
link |
I refused to go there up until this point.
link |
But I was like, I have to get to a point
link |
where I can get so tired and get through it
link |
that like my Judo will come back
link |
and my body will learn again.
link |
And when you say Japan, you mean the Kodokan,
link |
like what's Tokai, is that the highest level of Judo?
link |
It's one of the top colleges in the world, yeah.
link |
And that's so you can go with the best people in the world.
link |
You can go to war with them.
link |
Top level, like strong players.
link |
Yeah, there's a lot of very strong players.
link |
There's a lot of middle class players
link |
and there's a lot of volume of rounds.
link |
So you value all of it, the middle class too, like the.
link |
Because when you're tired, like you can't just train
link |
in areas where you're battling for every inch.
link |
At some point you have to be successful, right?
link |
So you still under duress and under strain
link |
and through exhaustion,
link |
you still have to have the ability to score.
link |
Well, if you're training with the best people
link |
in the world all the time,
link |
you're not always gonna be able to score.
link |
So you still need those B level players
link |
in order to really develop again.
link |
What is it like, if you can comment briefly
link |
on the training in Japan,
link |
what's it like to go into a different place?
link |
You probably don't speak the language that well.
link |
Like, is there an isolation aspect to it?
link |
Is it like purely about judo now?
link |
I really want it to be isolated.
link |
No training partners, no coaches.
link |
I want it to get back to my roots
link |
and just learn how to fight again.
link |
I don't wanna figure out how to beat the German.
link |
I don't wanna figure out how I can develop a new entry
link |
into my sale against, you know, whoever it may be.
link |
You just wanna fight hard.
link |
You just wanna fight.
link |
Let me get back to fighting.
link |
Let me get back to like the root of who I am.
link |
What were those sessions like?
link |
What were we talking about?
link |
Five minute rounds?
link |
Like what, how many?
link |
Six minute rounds, 30 minute breaks,
link |
14 rounds a session.
link |
Sorry, what's the 30 minute break?
link |
Like five days a week
link |
and then 11 or 12 rounds on Saturday.
link |
Plus weightlifting, plus running.
link |
Plus weightlifting, plus running.
link |
So those are hard rounds.
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What's it feel like to go through that?
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So you have a bunch of just a sea of black belts, Japan.
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I'm sure they're hunting you a little bit.
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Depending on who you are.
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I was hunted a little bit.
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Like I didn't really struggle because of who I am.
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Them as college athletes,
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they wanna show to their coaches
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and their higher players,
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like, oh look, I can throw the world number whoever.
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But if you're just a guy who shows up,
link |
like them beating you doesn't provide any value
link |
or raise their status.
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No, but you're status raising.
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So I was actually like in a situation
link |
where nobody was watching me
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and I was free to just battle at my own will.
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Which is what it was about for me.
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And you just push yourself.
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Because I knew how to do that.
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I know how to push myself.
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Are you, when you're doing these 14 rounds,
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is every single one a standalone thing for you?
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So you're not trying to pace yourself?
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Each one is to as much exhaustion as I can get.
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But then there must be ones where like it's like round nine
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where you got nothing left.
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Better figure out how to score.
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That's all you gotta do.
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You gotta survive and you gotta score.
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What's your memories of that, of those three weeks?
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What's like, what stands out to you?
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cause that's the place where you found the silver medal.
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Because it's the place most people don't want to be.
link |
Everybody's comfortable.
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I would rather find out who I am and what I'm made of
link |
and find those, those end points.
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And if I can't find them,
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then that means everybody else has given up before me.
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Were there a few people that just kinda,
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you returned to battle over and over in those times
link |
and then it was just.
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None of that, it's just like two men.
link |
You lock yourself in your room,
link |
you come back, you've thought about it
link |
and you come back with a game plan for that day.
link |
Against some players here or there
link |
and I would, I would develop a hit list.
link |
Like I would be like,
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oh, that motherfucker grabbed me at like 13
link |
and I watched him sit fucking four rounds
link |
and then come try to kick the shit out of me.
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I'm gonna fucking grab that guy early
link |
and I'm gonna beat the shit out of him.
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And you just develop that list.
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There's probably some epic battles in that room, right?
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What's it look like?
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Like how crowded is it?
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And so you're just like, yeah.
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Just sea of people.
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And you're trying to,
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are you doing groundwork at all?
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No transitions, no nothing.
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But if I get pissed off and like you keep dropping
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or like not letting me do what I wanna do,
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I'll rip a choke right across your face.
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Just to let you know that like,
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and if I wanted to.
link |
You have a really nice style of just like
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respectfully bullying the shit out of people.
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Cause some people call me a bully
link |
and I have to remind them that like
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a bully enjoys like beating up the weak.
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I wanna beat the person that fights back.
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It's not fun for me if you don't fight back.
link |
Some of the greatest people I've seen like do this,
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you have this in the Iowa wrestling rooms,
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they'll push each other into the wall.
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Like they get, there's like anger,
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but it's ultimately underneath it all.
link |
It's like a deep respect.
link |
I was training with Colton Brown one time
link |
and I went to San Jose State
link |
cause I was in California for something.
link |
he kept circling to the edge.
link |
They had like a cupboard that had like,
link |
when you opened it,
link |
it had like all the tape and like medical supplies.
link |
I was like, we'll fucking put you right through that.
link |
And he kind of giggled.
link |
And then he went by that edge
link |
and I fucking ran him right through it.
link |
See, to me, that's an ultimate sign of respect
link |
that both you and Colton will remember well.
link |
And we're still friends.
link |
It's just, I told him I was gonna do it.
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He knew I meant it too.
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He did it anyways.
link |
That just tested me.
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and that same attitude was,
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that was in Japan just day after day after day after day.
link |
And you didn't sit out rounds?
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And I did it all with a broken hand.
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How did you do it with a broken hand?
link |
You show up every day.
link |
Which one, left or right?
link |
So you can then focus on gripping with your left.
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It's always a way.
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It's always a way.
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But that means you can't,
link |
I guess you don't have to grip with your right sometimes.
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I would palm it with my thumb just like hanging out
link |
like this, just like this.
link |
So you can do something.
link |
So you can do like a Goshi,
link |
what were your main throws?
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But you have this big like a Goshi type of thing.
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Yeah, but not from like around the waist.
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It's from over the shoulder.
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Over the shoulder.
link |
And I can do it with just the one hand.
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Oh, sorry, which one hand?
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I don't need the sleeve hand.
link |
You don't need the sleeve hand,
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but you couldn't do it with the broken hand.
link |
Cause I can just put my hand in the gi
link |
so it can't come off.
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And then you just,
link |
cause what happened was three days
link |
before I was leaving for Japan,
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a guy, my hand was rested like this on a mat
link |
and the guy, boom, took my whole thumb off
link |
and tore all the tendons in the palm.
link |
So when I went to the doctor, he was like,
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you know, do we have to put a cast on it?
link |
And I go, I'm leaving in three days.
link |
You're not putting a cast on it.
link |
And I go, this is what I want you to do.
link |
Just like this, I said,
link |
I want you to build a cast that holds it,
link |
that Velcros around so that when I'm not training,
link |
But then when I'm training,
link |
I'll take it off and then I'll put the tape on it.
link |
And then whatever happens, happens.
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Whatever happens, happens.
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All right, so that's Epic.
link |
And that led you to the 2016 Olympics in Rio.
link |
Well, that led me to winning Pan Am Gold
link |
when I got back from Japan
link |
and then almost getting my leg cut off in 2015.
link |
That was like, I don't know, maybe a month or two later.
link |
I was hospitalized for seven days.
link |
The leg being cut off for what?
link |
I had three different types of bacterial infections
link |
in my right leg, a whole leg swelled.
link |
And it was in my blood, skin and in my bone,
link |
So I got stuck at MGH in a hospital for seven days
link |
until they figured out what the bacteria source was.
link |
Where was the source of the infection?
link |
Is it in the knee?
link |
Okay, so obviously there's a danger of like,
link |
that's life threatening.
link |
Yep, so when I went into the emergency room,
link |
when I got back from the Worlds,
link |
the lady was like, hey, you need to call,
link |
you're gonna call because you may lose your leg tonight.
link |
And then they put me in the hospital.
link |
What do you think of this whole time?
link |
Are you still thinking about Olympics?
link |
They put me into the room like four hours later,
link |
the doctor came in.
link |
I was at MGH in Boston and he was like,
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you have a serious infection in your leg.
link |
I go, he's like, we have to keep you hospitalized
link |
until we can figure out what it is.
link |
And I was like, buddy,
link |
I have the Olympic games in less than a year.
link |
I go, I don't give a fuck what it is.
link |
I go, just fucking take it out
link |
and let me get on with my day.
link |
He goes, we can't do that.
link |
Like, I don't understand.
link |
I go, you told me it's infected,
link |
just cut away that part of the tissue,
link |
drain it, do whatever you gotta do
link |
and then send me on my way.
link |
He's like, it doesn't work like that.
link |
He said, until we figure out what it is,
link |
we can't figure out how to stop it from growing
link |
or how far it spread.
link |
So it took them seven days to figure out what it was.
link |
Then once they figured out what it was,
link |
I went in for surgery to remove it.
link |
Then I spent, I think it was eight weeks
link |
in home care with a PICC line.
link |
And then I came back from that.
link |
On the first week and a half of judo,
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I tore my SI joint trying to throw a guy.
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And then I came back from that about a month later
link |
and then fifth at the Connell Cup.
link |
And then the games six months later.
link |
How quickly do doctors understand who they're dealing with?
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Like, is that difficult for you to explain
link |
who Travis Stevens is when you go to visit a doctor?
link |
I don't think they understand, you know,
link |
their role is to get me to do my job
link |
to the best of their ability as a doctor.
link |
Meaning, it's gonna be less than what they want.
link |
And they struggle conceptually with like,
link |
but the textbook tells me this.
link |
And I go, but I'm not a textbook, right?
link |
Like when you go to physical therapy,
link |
the first thing they do is they pull out that binder
link |
that says day one, we do this exercise.
link |
I go, but I have my own goals.
link |
Your job is to help me meet my goal.
link |
Let's work a plan to do that
link |
or I gotta go find somebody else.
link |
Did the doctors in general,
link |
people outside of your close knit group step up?
link |
If they didn't, I found somebody else.
link |
And typically I could find a person
link |
who knew the right person.
link |
I always wonder with people like,
link |
cause I'm constantly surrounded by,
link |
one of the biggest problems in my life has been,
link |
there's a lot of people in my life who love me very much,
link |
but who want me to the equivalent of that situation.
link |
You know, definitely don't go to the Olympics
link |
and definitely like,
link |
it seems like the world is full of people
link |
that want you to be average and happy, which is great,
link |
I mean, perhaps that's the way it should be.
link |
Like, you know, my parents, people close to you,
link |
that's what love, how love manifests itself often in people.
link |
But then like, I think the ultimate manifestation of love
link |
is understanding who this person is.
link |
Here's a madman who's driven towards a particular thing.
link |
And the best thing for you to do is not to say,
link |
like rest is to say, work harder.
link |
Like fuck your infection.
link |
You should be training.
link |
Have you ever met anybody as crazy as you
link |
that can help you?
link |
Most of us who get to this point get there
link |
because we're all a little unstable.
link |
Even my wife, Galita, right?
link |
Like when she was getting ready for 2016,
link |
or when she was getting ready for 2020,
link |
because she moved to Boston to be a coach,
link |
she had a neck problem, right?
link |
And at some point in time, it's like,
link |
what's really important?
link |
Day to day life or judo?
link |
And believe it or not, the doctor in Canada was like,
link |
I am never under any circumstances
link |
doing an MRI of your neck again.
link |
That's what she told her.
link |
She goes, if you have me do an MRI,
link |
you're not doing judo again.
link |
So just know if you hurt your neck and it requires an MRI,
link |
you're done with judo forever.
link |
So decide if you wanna do judo or not.
link |
That was a conversation we actually had to have.
link |
That's a cool thing for a doctor to say.
link |
I mean, it depends how bad ass they sound when they say it.
link |
So that's a tough conversation.
link |
Judo one, what's this with your wife?
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What's that relationship like?
link |
So you're both a little crazy.
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In a good sense, or from my perspective, in a good sense.
link |
Yeah, it's just, we understand that when you set a goal
link |
to do something, you're not signing on for the good.
link |
You're signing on for the bad.
link |
And I don't think a lot of people understand that.
link |
That's like a Valentine's Day card from Travis Stevens.
link |
You have to accept everything negative
link |
that could possibly happen.
link |
And until you do, you're never gonna make it.
link |
Because you'll always sell yourself short.
link |
You'll never go far enough.
link |
And if you sign up for the whole thing,
link |
then the negative is just like, oh, great.
link |
If you're experiencing the negative,
link |
they're also experiencing the negative.
link |
And if you overcome it,
link |
maybe they'll get knocked out for it.
link |
Maybe they won't deal with it.
link |
Maybe they won't train through it.
link |
Right, when I had my five herniated disc
link |
and I was in a neck brace,
link |
I was still in the gym at seven a.m.
link |
Doing whatever it is I could do
link |
because my job is to be at the gym.
link |
David Goggins, I don't know if you know the guy,
link |
he's gone, he's damaged lots of parts of his body,
link |
like you, trying to achieve things.
link |
So, unlike you, his achievements are like,
link |
your achievements come with the medal.
link |
He's just running in the darkness in the middle of nowhere
link |
It's like, I mean, it's the same probably as with you
link |
if you're able to be introspective about it,
link |
is he's just battling his own inner demons
link |
and working through those
link |
and is breaking his body doing so.
link |
Are you cognizant of the trade off of the fact
link |
that you're damaging your body
link |
to get to these levels of achievements,
link |
of this level of excellence, of this level of greatness?
link |
I mean, I guess that depends
link |
on what you consider damage really
link |
because I don't really see that I have damaged my body.
link |
If anything, I think I've strengthened it.
link |
My body can go through more than yours can.
link |
It's just like the Thai boxers, right?
link |
In order to strengthen their shins,
link |
they gotta break it a few times.
link |
It's just nature of the beast.
link |
You just had to break a bunch of stuff
link |
to find where the weak points are
link |
and then made them stronger.
link |
Or strengthen the areas around it
link |
to strengthen it by the sheer relation to it.
link |
But the problem is you may not be able to do judo
link |
for until you're 70.
link |
I may not be able to do judo to the level I used to.
link |
Don't get me wrong, but I can still do judo.
link |
You can still do judo.
link |
And I think a lot of people struggle with,
link |
they wanna keep doing it
link |
like they used to be able to do it.
link |
I don't try to do judo like I used to,
link |
like you're seeing here.
link |
I'm not that guy anymore.
link |
I don't even try to be that guy anymore.
link |
I'm a completely different player today than I am
link |
when I was winning Olympic medals.
link |
And so I guess when you're looking at my journey
link |
and the trade off is I never sacrificed anything.
link |
The people around me sacrificed for me.
link |
And I never had a downturn after the Olympics
link |
because I never identified as an Olympian.
link |
You know, a lot of Olympians suffer from depression
link |
Because they identify as it.
link |
Now they don't have who they are.
link |
Where was your personal moment of greatness?
link |
Like, or do you not experience life that way?
link |
Where you were truly proud to be yourself?
link |
Every day I wake up.
link |
You wake up and you're not proud of who you are,
link |
then you've really gotta seek out some help.
link |
So that's, first of all, okay, I'll do that
link |
because I definitely am not proud of who I am.
link |
I just wonder if you didn't identify with the Olympics,
link |
was there times, maybe in the training room,
link |
maybe in Japan, where you just kinda felt like,
link |
I get more of an emotional, I guess, trigger, right?
link |
Where like, I feel proud of what I've done
link |
when I've set to a task and I've done it.
link |
So almost any task.
link |
And the more challenging the task, the more reward.
link |
You fought a lot of amazing battles in 2016 Olympics.
link |
So you got, you beat the, let's see,
link |
the world number four in the quarterfinals.
link |
It's like a replay.
link |
Every single Olympics, you're,
link |
I got terrible draws.
link |
And then you're facing,
link |
this is where I was like watching this,
link |
I'm like, yeah, he's screwed.
link |
You faced the world number one, the Georgian, in the.
link |
By the way, for people who don't know,
link |
he beat me five times to my beating him once,
link |
and the one time I beat him was in London.
link |
And all other times he beat me, he beat me biathlon.
link |
And not by like a little throw,
link |
like he threw me on my head.
link |
At one point we were in Georgia.
link |
I'm fighting him in the final.
link |
I go to my teammate and I go, guess what?
link |
Make sure you watch this fight.
link |
Somebody's getting thrown free pwn.
link |
This match ain't, this ain't match going to distance.
link |
And about a minute in,
link |
I tried to take his head off with a big Koshiguruma,
link |
which is like a head and arm.
link |
He caught me and then threw me on my head
link |
and ended the match.
link |
So first of all, we're watching the video of you,
link |
again, standing next to the guy
link |
leading up to your semifinal match.
link |
So here, if you win this, you're guaranteed a medal.
link |
But the chances of you winning, from my fan perspective,
link |
I was like, God damn it.
link |
You and the rest of the world, except for me.
link |
What are you saying?
link |
You're talking to yourself here.
link |
What are you saying?
link |
My name is Travis Stevens.
link |
I'm an Olympic champion.
link |
I will not be denied.
link |
The George is probably like,
link |
what the hell is this guy saying?
link |
What is he talking to himself?
link |
So he was probably ultra confident.
link |
The difference is,
link |
is I understood the last five times he beat me.
link |
I was purposely trying to throw him, not beat him.
link |
I wanted to find out if I could.
link |
Turns out I can't.
link |
But I don't need to throw him to beat him.
link |
I need to know how to not lose.
link |
But you were still going for stuff here.
link |
But all of my attacks drag him to the ground.
link |
They're never standing on my feet.
link |
Which is a complete, which is a distinction
link |
that we talked about at the very beginning, right?
link |
You have throws where you're standing
link |
and throws where you're dropping.
link |
Every time I try to throw him standing,
link |
he throws me free pony.
link |
He picks me up and he throws me on my head, literally.
link |
So what I did is I just needed to get to that last
link |
one minute mark, which is what he does mentally
link |
in his own Judo, where he changes into a panic
link |
and just tries to do things that are uncharacteristic.
link |
So you knew he's gonna start panicking here
link |
as the match draws to a close
link |
and you both have a Shido, a penalty.
link |
Did we pass the point where I went for broke
link |
and I broke my rule?
link |
I went for a crazy foot sweep, like Ippon switch thing.
link |
I can't even remember what it's called
link |
because it's not used that often.
link |
And he actually landed on top of me
link |
and some people wanted it to be called Ippon.
link |
But he had actually let go of the gi
link |
and was looking for the mat.
link |
So he didn't have any control.
link |
So they didn't award him a point.
link |
Yeah, and here we go.
link |
Now we're getting down into the,
link |
see like he's getting frustrated.
link |
I love it. Perfect.
link |
Second penalty, no big deal.
link |
We just got to get to the one minute mark.
link |
That's all we got to do.
link |
So there's no panic here for you.
link |
Nope, I'm right where I need to be and look it.
link |
Now, if you go back into this match,
link |
I would love for somebody to go back
link |
and see how many times he did a drop right Ippon Seinagi.
link |
Why is he doing it now?
link |
Cause he panics and he changes his Judo
link |
at that one minute mark.
link |
Look how much I kept that grip.
link |
Yeah, you kept, you have that grip this whole time.
link |
You have your left hand.
link |
He, you keep the grip as he's throwing.
link |
Which, were you thinking choke as he drops or no?
link |
It's just kind of natural instinct.
link |
Yeah, because we drilled it.
link |
I spent two years drilling this transition.
link |
And then very, so for people that don't do Judo, Jujitsu,
link |
it's like really nice.
link |
You keep, everything is nicely controlled
link |
to where you're keeping that Gi under his chin.
link |
Like it's really tight control.
link |
Like it's very, like you're, I guess it's drilling,
link |
but you're cognizant of the position of your wrist
link |
And you can tell based on like just years of doing it,
link |
whether it's under or it's not.
link |
You can just feel the difference.
link |
And it's probably, even if you wanted to stop that,
link |
it's very difficult because your whole time, it's like.
link |
Once it's under, it's almost impossible to stop.
link |
For people who practice Jujitsu, don't practice Judo,
link |
one of the very annoying things about Judo
link |
is in order to do Gi chokes,
link |
they have to be under the chin.
link |
Even though the kind of intense chokes you do
link |
work just fine over the chin, but.
link |
And the kicker here and why we practice this choke
link |
was because when you go back and watch
link |
all of the other matches, he always does this tripod
link |
when I try to do arm locks,
link |
which is typically what I would do.
link |
And when I do that, he ends up sliding out
link |
and I end up falling off.
link |
So you step up here with the choke,
link |
he does a tripod where he sticks his button to the air
link |
and you, dude, what's the name of this choke?
link |
No, but, okay, but I mean, when you do from like,
link |
from that position, is there a way,
link |
this entry into the bone arrow, I guess,
link |
because you're doing.
link |
We refer to Judo as a British strangle,
link |
when they're in that turtle position
link |
and you do that rolling motion.
link |
And here, when you go into that,
link |
you can fall off of him, like you said,
link |
if you're going for an arm bar,
link |
but here, literally, because you have it under the chin
link |
really well, there's just a nice control.
link |
And I've already planned on it being on his chin.
link |
That's why I've hooked the arm, right?
link |
It's already starting to go straight.
link |
Probably this choke in the early stages,
link |
like a few frames before, feels like it,
link |
like you're safe, it's fine.
link |
Like the head will slip out or something like that.
link |
Yeah, and that's why my left knee is up by his shoulder,
link |
to keep that pressure down so that he can't posture it up.
link |
When did you know you have this?
link |
Oh, it works right here.
link |
I actually panicked right about here.
link |
Was maybe his head could come out?
link |
My hand, I tore the muscle in my palm
link |
because I was pulling so hard that I'm like,
link |
Like, is my hand just going to give out beforehand?
link |
And we're right on this edge, right?
link |
So like, if we roll a little bit outside
link |
and I still don't have it, like that ref could stop it.
link |
And then I felt him tapping and.
link |
Oh, that, he's heartbroken.
link |
And he knew, he knew he lost an Olympic medal right there
link |
because he already knew
link |
that the Japanese guy was going to be his bronze,
link |
that he never beats.
link |
See the, but also he probably in his head
link |
was confident that he would be in the final.
link |
And so like this, he almost is surprised.
link |
It's not supposed to happen this way.
link |
And it's the second time it's happened.
link |
And that's how you became an Olympic medalist.
link |
Man, that must be a great feeling.
link |
That must be a great feeling right here.
link |
Just like all the years of injuries, all of it.
link |
As fans that watch this too, it's like, holy shit.
link |
He actually did it.
link |
And it's a packed stadium too.
link |
Not one empty seat.
link |
So maybe what were you thinking here?
link |
I'll just focus on the next match.
link |
It took me maybe like a minute or so to like decompress
link |
and then like get back to like my normal state
link |
So the final is against the,
link |
What can you say about your mindset?
link |
You're saying the exact same thing.
link |
Travel Stevens, Olympic champion.
link |
I will not be denied because I had felt like in London
link |
and throughout the years, I felt like I kept getting robbed.
link |
So I made sure in my mantra to add that little bit
link |
at the end to reassure myself that like,
link |
they are not gonna control the outcome of today.
link |
I'm gonna control the outcome.
link |
What did you know about the Russian?
link |
And I honestly, I thought I had won the Olympics right now.
link |
And I still do think that today.
link |
Just like mentally when you think about it,
link |
that I've won like, yeah, he threw me,
link |
but it was like a one in a million chance
link |
that that worked for him.
link |
So it's not like you feel lucky to be in the final.
link |
It's like, you deserve to be champion.
link |
Again, remember, I'm anticipating the goal.
link |
Like I'm past that.
link |
There's a confidence in the way you're moving
link |
and the way you're.
link |
Yeah, like I have his sleeve.
link |
He's not breaking it.
link |
Like still walking him down, still going forward.
link |
Like I knew exactly how I was gonna beat him.
link |
And I developed a plan because when I was getting ready
link |
for Rio, we brought in a lot of the top Japanese players
link |
that weren't invited to the camp for the national team
link |
So I had four people, three of them were
link |
on the national team.
link |
One of them had won the universities in Japan,
link |
I only got thrown once during camp for a month.
link |
I just, I fucking slipped.
link |
Where does it happen?
link |
Right when he threw me.
link |
So if you let this play out really quick,
link |
there's a point right here where I'm gonna come around
link |
his back and I'm kinda gonna just yoko sutemi,
link |
which means like a lateral drop.
link |
And I'm just gonna bring him down to the floor,
link |
which isn't a throw right here.
link |
It's more of like a takedown, right?
link |
I'm trying to get him to the ground
link |
cause I wanna burn him.
link |
He doesn't do any waza.
link |
So I'm just gonna keep burning him.
link |
And you can see that like I get really close here.
link |
He just went a little too far to his side
link |
during this exchange.
link |
And like he's running.
link |
He's very wiry for an 81 kg player.
link |
There's not much like muscle on him.
link |
But he uses his length and his leverage very well.
link |
And you can see like I'm really burning the clock here.
link |
Like I'm owning these exchanges
link |
more than I'm owning the tachi waza ones,
link |
the ones in our feet.
link |
So you weren't trying to necessarily like submit him here
link |
or like really hard or like pin him.
link |
You were trying to break him a bit.
link |
I'm being overly physical.
link |
And to a lot of the BJJ people who are watching this,
link |
like they're like, oh, well I would have done this.
link |
I would have done that.
link |
You've got to think like if that referee
link |
who's reffing the judo side of it
link |
looks at it for a couple of seconds and is like,
link |
he's not really moving.
link |
So you're like, you understand judo.
link |
What's called ne waza groundwork.
link |
Like what you, cause you're really showing it to the ref.
link |
You have to show movement and progression.
link |
That hurt the forehead.
link |
Like see, I threw that hand in there kind of hard,
link |
ripping it across his face just because.
link |
I got to tell you there's a calm.
link |
Well, no, he does look a little broken,
link |
but the Russians have like this calmness.
link |
They're pretty good at.
link |
Well, don't forget they've competed like this for long time.
link |
It's all he knows.
link |
And this is where I lose it.
link |
See how my knee hit the ground.
link |
My knee wasn't supposed to touch the ground.
link |
I was supposed to sit to my hip to bring him down.
link |
Something happened where my knee touched
link |
and it didn't happen in the first one.
link |
It just happened there.
link |
So like that, we never should have been in that predicament.
link |
And that's one of the things where
link |
when you're looking at sports
link |
for anybody who's trying to improve,
link |
you have to, when you're trying to improve,
link |
you've really got to ignore the ends of the spectrums.
link |
The oopsies and the they got lucky.
link |
And you only focus on the middle.
link |
Like the technique I was doing was perfectly sound.
link |
It just happened that the one oopsie happened on the stage
link |
it shouldn't have happened on.
link |
And there's no amount of drilling
link |
that will ever like prevent that from happening.
link |
And that's just the.
link |
That's sports, especially the Olympics,
link |
especially Judo when it's like one.
link |
You got one mistake.
link |
Oopsie can just be your.
link |
You know, it really requires
link |
and you have to wrap your head around the idea of like,
link |
if you want the ability to beat these people
link |
and throw these people,
link |
like you got to be willing to get thrown yourself.
link |
Like this isn't boxing.
link |
There's no like, I'm going to stand in a place
link |
where he can't hit me and I can hit him.
link |
Because we have the gi and because they can grab it,
link |
they have just as much ability to throw you as you them.
link |
So how'd you feel here?
link |
How long was the duration of you feeling upset
link |
that you didn't get the gold versus.
link |
Because he didn't beat me.
link |
Right, it's an important distinction
link |
because when I'm training and when I'm competing,
link |
like I understand that I take risks
link |
and I accept those consequences.
link |
That's why I take them.
link |
That's a consequence.
link |
That's not him being the better judo player
link |
that dominated a match and I didn't have an answer
link |
and then he threw me.
link |
Then I would be a little upset.
link |
Like when you're tired and somebody's coming at you
link |
and like, you can't do anything about it,
link |
that's a shitty feeling.
link |
And that wasn't this.
link |
And that wasn't this.
link |
Like I accept losing when it's my fault.
link |
Well, that was a hell of a story, man.
link |
So from 2008, 2012, just the sheer number of injuries,
link |
the weight cuts, all of that, the wanting to quit,
link |
the doubts, I'm sure you did not get,
link |
like the fans probably started disappearing
link |
somewhere between the second and the third Olympics.
link |
Like the support from.
link |
Judo within the United States and just everybody, you know.
link |
The USOC tried to cut all my funding in 2015 and said,
link |
nah, you're too old.
link |
So through all of that, to win the medal,
link |
I mean, that's what the Olympics is about.
link |
Is there some, like when you look back,
link |
does that seem like another person?
link |
Is this like another lifetime ago?
link |
Or like, that's a hell of an accomplishment.
link |
How do you feel about the whole thing?
link |
It's an interesting kind of predicament
link |
because there's like those cookie cutter answers
link |
about how proud you are and how grateful you are,
link |
but at the end of the day, it's not who you are.
link |
So that skillset and that mentality that,
link |
you know, it took to accomplish that, that's who you are.
link |
And so this was just a stepping stone in who I am.
link |
So it's in the past to me.
link |
Like there's no shrine in my house
link |
that has like an Olympic medal in it.
link |
I can't even remember the last time I looked at it.
link |
So you're saying like the, all the stories,
link |
the skills along the way,
link |
that's like you right now sitting here is the shrine.
link |
The who you become along the journey
link |
is really what the prize is, right?
link |
Like when you think about any of them,
link |
most of the people that, you know,
link |
go through that depression after the games,
link |
it's because that is their shrine.
link |
Like that is who they've identified as.
link |
That is who they've told the world, the community,
link |
their friends, their family, that's how they've identified.
link |
I've identified as the person who perseveres,
link |
overcomes and accepts challenges.
link |
So like I, all those things are just like, you know,
link |
putting a suitcase off to the side
link |
and I'm onto the next great chapter thing
link |
that I'm trying to do.
link |
And it's both sad and cool that very few people
link |
in the world get to experience what it's like to be you.
link |
I mean, this level of having gone through that journey.
link |
Everyone has the opportunity to.
link |
I mean, I've done a few difficult things in my life,
link |
but I gotta tell you, weight cuts and sauna.
link |
And I would tell people right now who are listening,
link |
like, don't go through that.
link |
And I think a lot of wrestlers, a lot of young judo players,
link |
a lot of young, like just combat sports people
link |
where weight classes are a thing,
link |
they almost take a sense of pride.
link |
Like when I hear them talking about like,
link |
oh, how much weight do you have to cut?
link |
If you have to cut a pound more,
link |
it's like you've accomplished more, like you're tougher.
link |
Like there's no trophies for that.
link |
You, whatever the reason, had a job to do
link |
and you got it done and that is truly inspiring,
link |
no matter how hard.
link |
That there's a big deep lesson to learn from that.
link |
Then you start getting to the specifics
link |
of whether you should weight cut or not.
link |
But if we don't, then most of the great things we have
link |
in this world, we wouldn't have.
link |
The reason we have many of the great things
link |
is because people did that weight cut.
link |
The equivalent of the weight cut
link |
for whatever the discipline, man.
link |
There's a difference between having to do it
link |
because you have to and you get through it,
link |
then setting yourself up to do that
link |
because you think it's the cool thing
link |
or the thing you're supposed to be doing
link |
in order to be successful.
link |
There are plenty of like two time Olympic medalist.
link |
I probably could have been a two time Olympic medalist
link |
had I not cut that much weight.
link |
I probably would have multiple world medals
link |
had I not cut that much weight
link |
because my body wouldn't have been that broken.
link |
There's always the other side of it.
link |
So just when you're looking at it,
link |
like I just hear it in like young kids,
link |
even some of my own, like when you hear them talk
link |
about like where their weight's at,
link |
they almost take a sense of pride
link |
on how much they have to lose
link |
because they hear stories like this.
link |
And it's like, that's not the takeaway.
link |
I did it because I had to.
link |
I was put in a situation where like,
link |
I may not have gone to this game
link |
had I moved up to 90 kilos
link |
because I wouldn't have had time to grow into the division.
link |
And then you get the job done.
link |
And then you get the job done.
link |
You're right, there's a very important difference.
link |
And that's also with sleep.
link |
That's what people talk to me about.
link |
There should not be any glorification of not sleeping.
link |
There should not be a glorification of cutting weight.
link |
But if that's on the way to your,
link |
whatever is that fire inside you
link |
that you know needs to get done, like the job at hand,
link |
if you need to sacrifice in some of those ways,
link |
you get the job done.
link |
Yeah, and the weight cut is an interesting one
link |
because it's different.
link |
I mean, you could speak to this.
link |
There's different sports
link |
in which the weight is more important than others.
link |
And there's different levels to this game.
link |
I think at the level you operated in,
link |
that was probably essential.
link |
Like there's huge games changed completely
link |
from 81 kg to 90 kg.
link |
It's a huge weight jump.
link |
It's, first of all, it's weight, but then the strategy,
link |
it's like so much changes the height
link |
and all those kinds of things.
link |
The physical, like people don't understand it,
link |
but the physical size of a 90 kilo judo player
link |
versus the physical size of an 81 kilo judo player,
link |
it's like putting a human in a human.
link |
Like there's enough space.
link |
That's not like, you could stand next to your friend
link |
who's 180 pounds and you could be 160
link |
and you guys could look identical.
link |
It is different when both the 90 kilo,
link |
100 kilo and 81 kilo both have 6% body fat
link |
and they're cutting into the class.
link |
And it always feels like there's more variety at 90 kilo
link |
because some of them are lanky and tall.
link |
Yeah, some are short and stocky.
link |
It's like 81 is more uniform, which I,
link |
but then the flip side of that is the,
link |
this is what I like in jiu jitsu, again,
link |
amateur competing against bigger guys.
link |
Like I love that more.
link |
I like cutting weight just so I'm slim.
link |
Like that's when I feel the best
link |
with the same thing that you mentioned.
link |
But like, I love going against 200, 220 that.
link |
Because in jiu jitsu,
link |
the weight doesn't get amplified in the sport.
link |
Like the weight is just the weight, right?
link |
If you can leg press 220 and you can bench 220,
link |
then yeah, you can train with a guy who's 220.
link |
They're not gonna hurt you.
link |
And I mean, there is a truth that,
link |
lightweights and middleweights in jiu jitsu
link |
and the same is true for judo.
link |
It's just like a lot more of them.
link |
That means if you wanna be,
link |
you're just competing at a higher level.
link |
So like, there's much more variety of games.
link |
The level is much higher.
link |
So you're taking on a bigger challenge,
link |
even if you're like, have a weight advantage.
link |
So those are all decisions you have to kind of make.
link |
And certainly in jiu jitsu,
link |
people that are weight cutting are silly.
link |
I mean, that's the natural beginner thing to do
link |
is to feel the way the nervousness
link |
about competition expresses itself
link |
is through the desire to be as light as possible,
link |
which is the totally wrong desire to have.
link |
Right, like when you look at me now,
link |
I'm probably like 230, right?
link |
But I probably have the strength
link |
of a 70 kilo judo player, right?
link |
The weight doesn't really do much.
link |
Yeah, I mean, you have the same thing with wrestling.
link |
The skinny guys, the skinny you
link |
that we're looking at there,
link |
just the amount of power in that person is fascinating.
link |
Because it doesn't look like,
link |
you have some muscle, but it doesn't look,
link |
but I've felt the power of some of those people.
link |
Yeah, it's different.
link |
That's the best way I can describe it is like scary.
link |
It's like, oh shit, again, it's the food chain.
link |
You're not at the top of the food chain.
link |
That's the natural feeling
link |
when you go with some judo people.
link |
What's your sense about this recent Olympics?
link |
What stands out to you as,
link |
so like Teddy Rene who was on a big run for a long time,
link |
many consider him to be one of the greatest judo players
link |
of all time, two time Olympic gold medalist
link |
and two time Olympic bronze medalist of four Olympics.
link |
Not counting like team stuff,
link |
just doing individual and then like 10 time world champ.
link |
Yeah, I'm not sure how they're gonna catalog
link |
Like are they all technically Olympic champions
link |
or is France an Olympic champion?
link |
No, they're all technically Olympic champions,
link |
but I'm gonna ignore that.
link |
Is that how they're gonna classify it now?
link |
According, oh, sorry, according to Wikipedia,
link |
like according to the internet.
link |
I don't know, according to IGF or whatever.
link |
Because some of those players never won a match.
link |
They just filled a spot.
link |
Oh, that's even a starker example.
link |
You know, they lost in the individual
link |
and then they also lost in the team.
link |
Well, it's interesting because in the case of Teddy,
link |
he was important to the win against Japan in this Olympics.
link |
So like in the team event.
link |
So like, I feel like you should put that in the equation
link |
to say who won gold, right?
link |
It does feel like he won gold in the team
link |
because he carried the team.
link |
Well, you have like Nomura at 60 kilos from Japan,
link |
three time Olympic gold medalist, no team event.
link |
Are you gonna weigh Teddy's team event?
link |
No, no, we're not arguing this, of course.
link |
No, I'm just wondering how like the IGF,
link |
like when you look at a player stat,
link |
is it gonna be like team gold medal for the Olympics
link |
versus like their own personal gold medal?
link |
Yeah, I think in sports, we have to be brutally honest.
link |
And I think, hopefully this doesn't piss off people.
link |
But judo is an individual sport.
link |
It's honestly just that one athlete,
link |
maybe the athlete and coach, right?
link |
If you look at the big, big picture,
link |
but there's no team in judo.
link |
That's the beauty of combat sports.
link |
That's the honesty of it.
link |
That's the brutality of losing to another human being
link |
in a combat sport.
link |
That's why it's so damn embarrassing when you get slammed
link |
is because it's like, there's no team
link |
to like carry some of that responsibility.
link |
It's all on you and you suck.
link |
That's why you lost.
link |
There's that weight.
link |
And that's why it's like magical.
link |
It's not like soccer.
link |
It's not like basketball.
link |
Yeah, I couldn't play team sports
link |
because if one of my teammates
link |
wasn't doing their job correctly,
link |
I would go play their position.
link |
I'm gonna do it better than you.
link |
Yeah, but that, you know,
link |
some of the greatest leaders of teams also do that.
link |
Michael Jordan is like that, right?
link |
I mean, it's like with your actions,
link |
you raised the level for everybody.
link |
Like excellence is expected
link |
and therefore everybody needs to step up.
link |
So some of the greatest, I would say,
link |
team leaders are individualists at heart.
link |
So Teddy, I think 10 time world champion,
link |
non team, regular.
link |
It's a big number,
link |
but I think he has some like open weight categories in there.
link |
Open weight, right, right.
link |
I mean, you can count those, right?
link |
I mean, that's interesting.
link |
It's the same division twice.
link |
It's the same division twice.
link |
One day after another.
link |
Yeah, that's right.
link |
I don't know if I wanna count that, yeah.
link |
Well, I mean, that's one of the reasons
link |
people don't usually put heavyweights in judo
link |
as like the greatest of all time,
link |
because the level of competition is lower.
link |
But anyway, he did lose in this match
link |
to a young Russian, Tamerlan Bashev.
link |
Match also not on the internet.
link |
Thank you Olympics.
link |
I am definitely going to go on some rants on the internet.
link |
As a fan of Olympics,
link |
I feel like this definitely needs to change moving forward.
link |
Like every single major Olympic event,
link |
I also like random sports like weightlifting,
link |
even though I don't do Olympic weightlifting.
link |
It's fun just to watch.
link |
Fun to watch such high level of excellence.
link |
And the fact that we can't just fricking watch the full,
link |
like each nicely categorized event is really heartbreaking
link |
in judo, in Olympic weightlifting,
link |
in track and gymnastics, all of that.
link |
Anyway, so Teddy lost.
link |
I mean, does that stand out to you?
link |
If you were to like recap the things
link |
that you remember from this Olympics.
link |
I picked him losing already.
link |
Like in my predictions.
link |
Lose which, where?
link |
That match or just in general somewhere?
link |
In the final, you thought.
link |
Yeah, final or was it semi?
link |
When I looked at his draw
link |
because he decided not to compete throughout the quad
link |
and do like the bare minimum to go,
link |
because of his age,
link |
I didn't think he would have enough energy
link |
to battle his way through the draw that he had.
link |
And sure enough, he didn't.
link |
He felt earlier than I thought,
link |
but he's not the young athletic person he used to be.
link |
And when they changed the rules to judo,
link |
they allowed people to take people
link |
into really, really deep waters,
link |
which you saw at this Olympics,
link |
which did it ruin the sport or did it not?
link |
Like, I'm not sure,
link |
but it was definitely difficult to watch.
link |
Would you put him at the greatest of all time
link |
or asked another way,
link |
like who do you think is the greatest judo player
link |
He's definitely not the greatest judo player,
link |
but he's definitely the best competitor.
link |
What's the difference in judo player and competitor?
link |
There's an ability to like do the act of judo
link |
of like throwing, pinning, arm locking
link |
versus can you win a judo match?
link |
Right, like when you look at somebody like Nomura
link |
who like threw everyone he fought,
link |
threw three Olympics, multiple world championships,
link |
multiple things, like that's a pure judo player.
link |
In the essence of judo,
link |
he can throw, pin or arm lock
link |
just about anybody he steps on the mat with during his time.
link |
Teddy tended to, when you look at his judo,
link |
because of his size,
link |
again, it's just because he's in the heavyweight category,
link |
he was so much bigger, so much stronger,
link |
people just couldn't handle it.
link |
And you would see really good judo players just break.
link |
Like they could hang in there for a little bit,
link |
but eventually his size, like you can't control that weight.
link |
Weight moves weight.
link |
And when you have to use all your strength
link |
to keep him upright and off of you,
link |
your muscles just give out
link |
because you don't have somebody of that stature
link |
and that skill to train with, to train those muscles.
link |
So you're thinking more like those 73, 81, 90 kg people
link |
that just stand in the pocket and just give everything.
link |
Like what comes to my mind is like a Koga.
link |
You know, a Nomura who's a 60 kilo guy,
link |
but again, like his dynamics
link |
and how long he was dominant for, like it just.
link |
Do you put value to like epic throws,
link |
like singular moments of greatness?
link |
If it's against a noteworthy player
link |
in a noteworthy position.
link |
There are a lot of highlights of people
link |
that are good judo players,
link |
but their highlights are of, you know,
link |
scrubs on the IJF circuit.
link |
It's like, great, the Japanese guy threw the guy
link |
from, you know, Senegal free poem.
link |
We kind of expected that.
link |
You took the world number one
link |
against the 330th person in the world.
link |
What'd you think was gonna happen?
link |
Like when I see those highlights like thrown around
link |
like social media, I'm like, that's not a highlight.
link |
They might as well have just been at the dojo
link |
like practice and throws.
link |
If you look at the like top 10 list for judo,
link |
Kano always comes up, you know, as.
link |
But he's not somebody that I don't think
link |
his results are there,
link |
but you don't really know how he got there.
link |
So it's hard for me to like, I can't see his judo.
link |
Kano, by the way, is the founder of judo
link |
for people who don't,
link |
who are considered to be the founder of judo.
link |
The sport evolves.
link |
The players that are like,
link |
if you took champions from the past
link |
and you fought them against the players of today,
link |
they're, it's not happening.
link |
And that goes with anything, right?
link |
So every time you think of like,
link |
who's the best of all time,
link |
it's probably somebody within a generation
link |
If I'm gonna pick my top three, let's say,
link |
top three, and I would go generationally speaking,
link |
I would pick Ono for today,
link |
probably Iliadis for like my timeframe,
link |
like the, from a developmental standpoint.
link |
And then I'd probably go Koga.
link |
And then before Koga, I'd probably go Nomura.
link |
As like the person of that generation
link |
as a whole in judo respected.
link |
Well, in the case of,
link |
I wonder if people feared Koga.
link |
Like you're, that little guy's gonna get under you.
link |
And you're gonna go for a ride.
link |
You know, he was 78 kilos
link |
when he took second at the All Japan's,
link |
which is an open weight class.
link |
You know, like he,
link |
he could throw down with anybody any weight class.
link |
He was one of the early people
link |
that planted the seed of judo,
link |
love of judo in you.
link |
And when I looked at him,
link |
like that was how like I wanted my judo to be portrayed.
link |
And then Iliadis, Iliadis, you just like,
link |
I mean, you have a similar attitude as him.
link |
So you just like the way he carries it.
link |
That's why we get along.
link |
You guys hang out.
link |
I mean, I'd love to see that conversation.
link |
I remember when we were talking about like his coaching,
link |
I was like, why didn't you take this team?
link |
Or like, why'd you pick this team?
link |
And he's like, I can't work with those people.
link |
Like those people are weak for children.
link |
Like they don't know how to train hard.
link |
Cause he was competing in this Olympics.
link |
He got gold in this Olympics, right?
link |
He lost in the team tournament though.
link |
I think he just didn't care.
link |
He just really wanted to throw that guy.
link |
He like throws everybody.
link |
So he's, he represents the thing you're mentioning.
link |
I signed up to the judo fanatics, best of Ono.
link |
Is there something that stands out to you about him
link |
that's especially you find beautiful,
link |
like, or powerful about his technique?
link |
His adaptability to the situations
link |
and understanding of like what needs to happen
link |
in order to throw these people.
link |
I specifically watched a match with his
link |
and I was going to do a breakdown video on it because.
link |
Is there a match, do you remember what it is?
link |
It's him versus Garvey of Hungary.
link |
Is he good at gripping?
link |
So we're watching the match against Hungary.
link |
So at the one minute, so right here, coming up.
link |
I've heard he's freakishly strong.
link |
I've never had the ability to train with him.
link |
Obviously he looks super skinny.
link |
But when you see him without his gi jacket on,
link |
like he's a jacked dude,
link |
which is uncharacteristic of a Japanese player
link |
from back in the day, in a way changed all that.
link |
He was like, we're going to get physical
link |
to compete with the Europeans.
link |
That's another one of the greats, right?
link |
He doesn't get mentioned enough.
link |
And he's a righty here, yeah, okay.
link |
And this is where he started setting it up.
link |
It's like, you can see he was standing
link |
in like a left handed stance and then he changes.
link |
So he grips almost like a double sleeve,
link |
not a double sleeve.
link |
He holds the tricep.
link |
And the front sleeve standing like a lefty.
link |
Just tricep and sleeve.
link |
And that was like the biggest whip
link |
and twist of a nutrimata I've ever seen.
link |
Yeah, he doesn't actually lift him off the floor.
link |
And if you look at it in like slow motion almost,
link |
yeah, let's, yeah, there we go.
link |
The Hungarian player was like 100% defense
link |
and he still did this, right?
link |
So right here, like press pause.
link |
This is like an identifier if you're trying
link |
to like learn judo and figure out how to set it up.
link |
Because knowing how to get to the point right before
link |
you pull the trigger is probably the most important.
link |
So when we watch this play out,
link |
what Ono's gonna do is he's gonna pivot
link |
off his right leg right here.
link |
He's gonna back step with his left
link |
and it's gonna pull Ungarvi's front leg
link |
all the way forward into what we would call
link |
like a neutral square stance.
link |
So he plants hard.
link |
Oh, there's an interesting pull with the,
link |
oh no, it's not a tricep.
link |
He almost like, it starts with the tricep
link |
and he like collects the gear or something like that.
link |
But it's still above the elbow
link |
because you can see the bend, right?
link |
And right here, see how he never put,
link |
back it up a little bit.
link |
This is kind of like one of those things,
link |
yeah, pause it right there.
link |
So when he puts his right foot down,
link |
he's pulling so hard with his back
link |
that when Ono goes to put his left foot down,
link |
it never touches the mat.
link |
But by putting his left foot back,
link |
it actually pulls Ungarvi's foot forward.
link |
And so he's able to speed up his throw
link |
by just continuing that motion back,
link |
which what was supposed to have been a step
link |
turned out to just, in the middle of the action,
link |
he makes a split second decision
link |
before putting the foot down to just continue.
link |
Cause he recognizes that feel in his hands.
link |
And so it's like, it never, it's a swing.
link |
Like he never touches the ground with his left foot.
link |
It never started as like a big swing to a back step.
link |
He changed his mind partway through.
link |
So it's right there, he wants to take a step.
link |
And then he goes, nope, he's bringing that foot forward.
link |
I'm just going to go for it.
link |
And look at, if you go a few more steps forward right there,
link |
his hip is the same height as Ungarvi shoulder.
link |
Because he's leaning so far into the throw
link |
with his body weight.
link |
And he's allowing that tricep grip to rotate.
link |
That's going to draw Ungarvi forward.
link |
And now when you pause it right here,
link |
you think about the sheer physics
link |
to like get your body into this position.
link |
Jimmy and I were so like,
link |
when we saw this for the first time,
link |
we tried to just stand like that and we couldn't do it.
link |
His left foot is pointing straight ahead.
link |
His chest is perpendicular to that foot
link |
or parallel with it, right?
link |
And his head is by his foot.
link |
Is that only possible in the midst of a throw?
link |
Do you think he works on making like?
link |
I think he's done this particular throw,
link |
not this style of it, but Uchi Mata so much
link |
that his body has adapted to be able to do this.
link |
So when people are trying to learn
link |
and like break down videos,
link |
they don't understand like the power he has
link |
and what we call end range motion.
link |
Yeah, look at that.
link |
So like look at the full range of motion he takes, right?
link |
His left foot swings all the way around
link |
and the torso starts like at three oclock
link |
and it goes all the way around
link |
like almost back to the three oclock.
link |
And he never lifts his leg above his hip.
link |
And the crazy part is he never fell over during any of it.
link |
Yeah, look at that.
link |
Stayed on his feet.
link |
Is that a matter of pride or just?
link |
I think that's just habit.
link |
The way the forces work, like he can just stay up.
link |
That's one of the most beautiful throws I've ever seen.
link |
There's so much wrong with it, but it worked.
link |
Because when you think about,
link |
remember what we talked about the very beginning,
link |
like he's got to get his center of gravity under his.
link |
Well, here's one of the top players in the world
link |
throwing another top player in the world
link |
with his hip at that guy's shoulder height
link |
and it's still working, it's.
link |
Okay, so he, this generation, he could be the great.
link |
And like he switched a lot of those details
link |
of the throw in the middle.
link |
And that only is, that means he's probably what,
link |
like a hundred thousand times that throw has happened.
link |
I saw you were into chess recently.
link |
So you're like me, a bit of a beginner in chess.
link |
You're part of launching the website Effective Chess.
link |
So I got to ask, maybe it's a personal question,
link |
but do you have advice to yourself
link |
and to other beginners in exploring chess
link |
of how to one, have fun and two, to start getting good?
link |
It's nice to see like Olympic caliber athlete
link |
take on a difficult task with a beginner's mind.
link |
So like, what's that process like?
link |
I'm a huge fan of just learning new things in general.
link |
Right, like when I left Judo,
link |
like I took a job as marketing for Fuji Sports
link |
and I was getting frustrated with designers.
link |
So I learned Photoshop.
link |
I also got angry with the photographer.
link |
So now I take all the photos too,
link |
just because I don't mind learning.
link |
I've spent my entire Judo career learning all the time,
link |
like adding new techniques,
link |
finding new ways, practicing, developing.
link |
And so when it comes to chess,
link |
I treat it just like I do anything else.
link |
I just stick to one plan
link |
and I learn all the ins and outs of that one plan.
link |
And then I develop another plan, right?
link |
Like I might practice like a London opening, for example,
link |
and just, I don't even care if I win or lose.
link |
I just wanna figure out how I'm gonna lose
link |
and then figure out how I'm gonna win.
link |
And once I know that position is now done,
link |
then I start with another position.
link |
And then once I figured out how I'm gonna lose
link |
and how I'm gonna win,
link |
the next thing I do is I don't go to a third.
link |
I figure out the bridge between the two.
link |
Like at what point during my openings
link |
can I transition back into this opening?
link |
Right, so like you have like some basic openings
link |
and you wanna see how they go wrong,
link |
how they go right, all the different ways.
link |
And then that starts to solidify a higher level concept
link |
of that particular opening
link |
and you start to stitch together the concepts.
link |
The concepts together,
link |
cause being able to go from one to another
link |
and then back and forth is part of the reasons
link |
why like I was successful at judo
link |
is just because everything I do,
link |
at some point it touches that spider web
link |
of like being able to get from one area to another.
link |
We refer to it as like a toolbox, right?
link |
You need more tools in your toolbox.
link |
But if you're always grabbing the wrong tool
link |
for that job, then you're just not gonna have success.
link |
I actually forgot to ask,
link |
you mentioned a few greatest chess players of all time
link |
and I noticed you didn't mention Vladimir Putin.
link |
I gotta ask you about his judo.
link |
Do you by chance know much about his judo?
link |
What do you think about a president of a major nation
link |
being a judo black belt?
link |
And I think from what I've seen, pretty good at it.
link |
I think it shows, you know, if he actually got it,
link |
like let's go with that premise of like he earned it.
link |
That just shows like a level of like physical persistence
link |
and mental fortitude to be able to like,
link |
you know, take those beatings
link |
and just keep showing up until you've overcome
link |
and can now give those beatings.
link |
As you know, in Japan and Russia, you get it by just like,
link |
when you're young, it's easier to get a black belt
link |
when you're like, just go through a bunch of beatings
link |
for like 10 years in your teenage years.
link |
But there's also from it springs like a camaraderie.
link |
Like there's a definitely a brotherhood and sisterhood
link |
in terms of judo to where you're connected forever
link |
For many people, it's their childhood connection.
link |
You sort of leave judo, you know,
link |
in your twenties and your thirties, but that's always there.
link |
And the same is true with wrestling.
link |
So it's interesting to see him pay respect to that,
link |
like by going with the Russian national judo team.
link |
And I think he did, obviously they have to get thrown,
link |
But just, you can tell,
link |
and you probably could tell even better,
link |
but you can tell when a person moves in a way
link |
where you're like, okay, you've had like 10 years
link |
of beatings and you can tell the way they pull,
link |
the way they move.
link |
But I also like, in contrast to the US national team,
link |
or I don't even think there's a national team for US, right?
link |
It's the Pedro Judo center, right?
link |
That there is some, it's really cool
link |
when there's a camaraderie like that
link |
amongst the highest level Olympic caliber athletes in Russia.
link |
I suppose Japan might have similar kind of thing.
link |
And then you can have the system of people together
link |
and then you can have a strong coaching staff,
link |
not just like a coach, but a coaching staff.
link |
And then you can have the nation backing that staff.
link |
I mean, and then the result is like,
link |
you have some incredible level of judo emerge.
link |
Is there something you could say,
link |
we didn't talk much about Jimmy.
link |
I mean, he was a critical part of your just,
link |
like of your perseverance through all the,
link |
all that you had to go through.
link |
What did you learn from Jimmy?
link |
What are some impacts that he had on your life,
link |
both on the mat and off the mat?
link |
If we had to like put it down to like a very simple thing,
link |
he taught me how to win, right?
link |
It wasn't necessarily like the technical side of judo.
link |
Like we went over gripping, we went over this,
link |
But the real strength to Jimmy was like,
link |
he knows how to win.
link |
And most people think,
link |
well, if I get really good at this technique,
link |
I'll be able to throw people with it, not win.
link |
That is not how the world of sports works, right?
link |
Like I remember in one of my YouTube videos,
link |
I was doing a breakdown of a match from the Cuba Grand Prix
link |
where I was fighting a Mongolian guy.
link |
He's kicking the shit at me, I'm not gonna lie.
link |
Four minutes in, like he just throwing me like left
link |
and right, he was so fast.
link |
I felt like I just couldn't get to him.
link |
In the last 30 seconds, he changed.
link |
He started protecting his lead instead of continuing
link |
the fight the way the entire match was going in his favor.
link |
He made a mental shift and when he made that mental shift,
link |
Because he didn't know how to win the fight.
link |
He can win exchanges, but he can't win the fight.
link |
So the last thing you wanna do is have to win
link |
every exchange in a match.
link |
You wanna know how to kick it into sixth gear.
link |
Like when to step off the gas,
link |
when to focus on gripping,
link |
when to attack, how often to attack,
link |
all those things like.
link |
And you've had those conversations with Jimmy like,
link |
this is not like how to stop trying to win every exchange,
link |
that kind of thing.
link |
Because I was a brawler before.
link |
I was like, if I threw you once, I'm throwing you again.
link |
And sometimes you get caught.
link |
Why would I do that?
link |
I'm already winning.
link |
What about like the mental side of the game,
link |
the preparation, all those things?
link |
One of the biggest things Jimmy brought to the forefront
link |
when it came to like the mental side
link |
was the visualization, right?
link |
And when I started visualizing myself winning,
link |
I started seeing more success.
link |
But once I started seeing more success,
link |
with the visualization also came self doubt.
link |
Because as I'm starting to picture myself like,
link |
I would picture myself before fighting Church's village,
link |
I'm gonna throw him with Koshiguruma and I can see it.
link |
And if I stand in the shoot for too long,
link |
you start to like, but what if he counters?
link |
Then you go, well, if he counters with this,
link |
I'm gonna counter with that.
link |
But you already let that doubt in.
link |
And then you start playing this like five step scenario,
link |
but you still come out on top.
link |
But all that doubt has like seeped into your mind, right?
link |
And a lot of people don't understand
link |
that that's a bad thing.
link |
You're still winning in your mind,
link |
but you're also doubting yourself in your mind.
link |
Yeah, once you let that doubt seep in,
link |
Yeah, and so I remember I was at the World Championships.
link |
I can't remember what year it was, but I was ready.
link |
Like I was healthy, I was ready to go.
link |
And we all thought like,
link |
this is the year Travis wins the Worlds.
link |
I go out there in the first round,
link |
I'm in the shoot for like 45 minutes.
link |
Like the match went into golden score,
link |
then the next match went into golden score,
link |
then the fucking next match went into golden score.
link |
Then the referee came and told me,
link |
you can't wear your gi.
link |
Then Big Jim goes, why can't he wear his gi?
link |
Any gi that has his name on it,
link |
we're not gonna let him wear.
link |
He has to wear a different gi.
link |
So then I go, fuck you, I'm leaving.
link |
And I walked out there and I fought.
link |
I lost in golden score because I did a kochi
link |
and they called it a false attack.
link |
And I went, great, I'm out of the fucking Worlds.
link |
But when I was in the shoot,
link |
I struggled because I started allowing the like
link |
Hungarian guy that I was gonna face to do things to me
link |
that I would have to play defense to and then counter.
link |
It's like, great, but now I'm doubting my own ability.
link |
So I went to a sports psychologist
link |
and the big game changer for me was,
link |
I focused more on the emotional, physical response
link |
that happens in matches rather than the actual quote unquote
link |
like Instagram picture that would have happened.
link |
So when I was getting ready for 2016,
link |
you think about like,
link |
how do you feel like standing in the shoot?
link |
Like, what does your body feel like?
link |
Is your heart racing?
link |
How's your breath?
link |
Is your mouth dry?
link |
And then you think about like, okay,
link |
the ref just started the match.
link |
Like, how, what's the atmosphere like?
link |
How do you emotionally respond to these things?
link |
More so than me trying to beat a specific judo player,
link |
Like, oh, the ref just gave you a penalty at a minute 30.
link |
Like, how do you feel?
link |
And then you start thinking about the physical responses.
link |
And when you do that really well,
link |
you can actually get the pins and needles
link |
and your body will start to sweat
link |
and your heart will start to race as if you're in it.
link |
Cause it's not about the technique.
link |
It's more about the physical.
link |
Like, what does it feel like to have your fingers ripped
link |
out of a gi in the first exchange?
link |
Now my hands can feel that.
link |
That's fascinating.
link |
And then on a cellular level,
link |
like I fought the Olympic games so many times
link |
to the point where like, it is no longer a goal.
link |
It's an anticipation.
link |
So down to the experience of the grip break,
link |
that just the sweat, the, the heart beating, the, yeah.
link |
What does it feel to have your head smashed into a mat
link |
and driven across the mat with a mat burn?
link |
And then getting back up.
link |
And getting back up.
link |
Like with a bit of a burn, all that kind of stuff.
link |
The actual sensation on the skin.
link |
The actual sensation of what it takes to fight a judo match.
link |
It's not a strategy, like,
link |
but the actual sensations, the full experience.
link |
That's fascinating.
link |
Cause then your body's going to fight hundreds of matches
link |
without the physical damage.
link |
And you could probably get really far with that.
link |
And not also in just judo, but basically anything.
link |
If you learn how to simulate well.
link |
You've lived a very, a hell of a life.
link |
Is there a device you can give to young people?
link |
Sort of a high school, college,
link |
thinking about their career, thinking about life,
link |
how to live one they're proud of?
link |
I think the number one thing I can tell people is,
link |
and how I've lived my life is,
link |
you've really got to like,
link |
forget everybody in your life right now.
link |
Your mother, your father, your grandparents,
link |
your girlfriend, your boyfriend, whoever it is,
link |
and really decide like, what is going to make you happy?
link |
At some point in my career,
link |
the act of pushing my body to the limit
link |
made me happier than winning a grand slam medal.
link |
Pushing my body to the limit
link |
didn't make me happier than winning an Olympic medal.
link |
There's a balance there.
link |
And I think a lot of people struggle with living their life
link |
where they're happy and they make other people happy
link |
or take in their feelings into the considerations
link |
of what they need to do in their life.
link |
And I think if they can cut those strings sooner,
link |
it'll allow you to get over it quicker
link |
and get to a happier place sooner.
link |
And then as long as you're focusing
link |
on what's making you happy,
link |
the things you do that make you happy
link |
will attract other people who do those things
link |
that will in turn build stronger, better relationships.
link |
And then you will also realize the best form of yourself
link |
and inspire many others.
link |
You've inspired me to, for whatever the hell I've done,
link |
at least to do a slightly better job
link |
than I otherwise would have by doing martial arts,
link |
by taking that journey,
link |
and I think becoming a better person because of it.
link |
So Travis, I have been, I continue to be
link |
one of your biggest fans.
link |
I love your whole career in the way you pursued happiness.
link |
I love what you and Jimmy have done.
link |
I love the sport of judo as represented by you.
link |
So I deeply appreciate what you've done, man.
link |
And I'm honored that you would spend your time with me today.
link |
Thanks for talking, man.
link |
Thanks for listening to this conversation
link |
with Travis Stevens.
link |
To support this podcast,
link |
please check out our sponsors in the description.
link |
And now let me leave you with some words
link |
from Napoleon Bonaparte.
link |
Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake.
link |
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.