The following is a conversation with Travis Stevens, 2016 Olympic silver medalist in Judo,

and one of the greatest American judoka ever. But his story is inspiring not because of that

Olympic medal, but because of the decades of injury, hardship, incredible battles against the best

in the world, wrapping up in close heartbreaking losses at the 2008 and 2012 games, all of which

eventually led to that very silver medal in 2016. As we talk about in the podcast, Travis is also

someone who is largely responsible for me getting into judo, for which I will forever be grateful.

He also happens to be now my judo coach and mentor. I'll release a video of Travis and I

doing some judo in a few days. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the

description. As a side note, let me say a few words that I've written down about the Olympic Games

and the International Olympics Committee. I'm visiting family has the t shirt, but I had to

pull away to write and to say these words because this very video was taken down by YouTube as per

the request of the IOC. You know it's serious when a Russian takes time away from family,

food and drink. I'm heartbroken to see continued incompetence, greed and corruption on the part

of the IOC in failing to do as the Olympic Charter states to quote, ensure the fullest coverage

and the widest possible audience in the world for the Olympic Games, end quote. I want to give you

two facts. First, they do not make most of the videos of the games available for replay anywhere

that is accessible, searchable and discoverable, whether funded by ads or by subscriptions.

For example, on YouTube or their own service, it is not available anywhere. Second, in the most

absurd violation of the Olympic Charter, they've uploaded all of the videos of the 2012 2016 and

the 2020 slash 21 Olympics to YouTube and they set all of these videos to private. This results

in a situation like my four hour conversation that you're watching now with Travis Stevens being

taken down due to us including a few seconds of a small video overlay of Travis's epic match

against Ole Bischoff in 2012. This is done automatically as per the request of the IOC.

I have the video due to having screen recorded it from 2012. Here you have Travis Stevens,

an Olympic silver medalist, someone who spent his entire life overcoming injuries, losses, hard

weight cuts, periods of no financial or psychological support, culminating in the biggest heartbreak of

his career in this one match and this match is available nowhere online, not for free,

not for one million dollars. Our showing short clips of it results in the IOC taking it down,

not demonetizing it, taking it down, blocking it. The IOC silences this amazing story of Travis

Stevens of heartbreak that eventually led to triumph and there are thousands of stories like it,

stories that are supposed to inspire the world. To me and to billions of others, the Olympic Games

give a chance to celebrate and to be inspired by the greatest stories of human flourishing

in the face of hardship and incredibly long odds or dominance in the pursuit of perfection

at levels previously thought to be impossible. The Olympic Games inspired kids like me to dream

and to work hard to achieve in our own lives the same moments of magic and greatness small or big

that the Olympic Games reveal. I believe the members of the IOC are good people,

but people who forgot the dream, the fire that was sparked and burned in their hearts when they

first saw the Olympics as kids. They've allowed the gradual corruption of their own human spirit

and thereby have robbed the world of this very fire, the fire of the Olympic torch,

the fire that ought to burn in the eyes and hearts of kids watching the Olympics today,

daring to dream, daring to be great. Please, please do better. The world needs you,

the world needs the Olympic Games. This is the Lex Friedman podcast and here's my conversation

with Travis Stevens. Judo is a martial arts, a sport, a set of techniques, ideas and philosophies.

Can we start by maybe you giving a big picture overview of what is Judo to somebody who's like

outside the whole spectrum of grappling sports? Yeah, Judo was originated in Japan that was used

as a police tactic for self defense and subduing people. It's the art of being able to throw

somebody to the ground and hold and control the situation. I think it's pretty much evolved since

then though. As you include the sport aspect of it, it's grown to be something more and more

dynamic and it's gotten away from that. The basics is people wear something called a gi,

which I think nicely mimics outdoor clothing, like a jacket. They start on the feet

and they get to grip each other and the scoring works by the more badass the throw is,

the more points you get and if you throw the person big and hard on their back,

you win the match and it's over and that's called an epon. Yeah, which is equivalent to a knockout.

So I guess there's no knock downs, Judo. We don't count those. Yeah. They got to hit their back

and they got to hit it with force. And so there's a huge incentive for the big throws

and there's also the drama of somebody catching you off guard with a surprise big throw and it's

over. There's two ways of losing really. I saw this coming. You see it but you can't stop it

and those ones tend to be the ones you can live with. The ones that are really hard to live with

are the ones you never saw coming because that just shows that that person has really out glassed

you. So there's a small set of throws, maybe you can go through them that are like you saw

coming but you couldn't do anything about it and then there's the set of throws that are more like

surprises. So first of all, the counters or if you fake one thing and go the other way,

then that's a surprise and it's like oh shit, you off balance the person because they think you go

one way and then you go the other way and then there's this oh shit moment. All of a sudden

your back is just slammed on the ground. One of the ones, I mean you're good at many throws but

one of them is that I think reveals the beauty of Judo is the foot sweep. There's something

about the off balance and the timing. If you catch him right, all of a sudden it's like I had the

same feeling when I went skydiving. Like all of a sudden the ground is not under you anymore.

Yeah and you just you go weightlessness for like a split second and you realize you've lost like

all control of your limbs. It's like zero gravity, right? Like you just you can't turn,

you can't rotate, you can't do much of anything and then before you know it you've hit the floor.

Yeah. It's a cool feeling when you get thrown because you hope to do that this thing to another

person is like you just hit the ground hard because it's not you didn't see it coming. It wasn't a

big throw that got loaded up. It's like all of a sudden the surprise and then like this like

feeling your back just slams and there's like the air's up. Yeah and the worst is when you get hit

twice with one throw, right? Because sometimes like the guy throwing you didn't expect you to

leave either so you hit and then that guy comes down like a second and a half later and it's like

boom boom and then the wind is just gone from you. Yeah those are the worst. And then there's the

disappointment like then the intellectual the cognitive part comes in where you're like oh

shit I just lost. Yep and you don't have like a connection to why, right? It's almost like you've

just like you didn't literally get a concussion like you understand and remember everything

but you can't figure out how this just happened, right? Those are the those are the tough ones

to deal with. Actually have you had moments like that where you don't understand how it happened?

You have to watch footage to understand what happened. Even when you watch it you're just like

I don't get it like why wasn't I in a position to stop this? It makes zero sense.

Conceptually when you watch it you're like I understand how to play defense. I understand

and it looks like I'm in a defensive position but at the end of the day I still got thrown.

Yeah you were talking about what is it a 2008 match. You have a non traditional gripping style

yeah accurate to say but and then you were going against another right handed player

and then there's some kind of fake that he did and then he caught you. Yep. Can you

describe the throw he caught you with? He caught me with a drop sale but he kind of like we were

engaged we were looking at each other and we were kind of at like a stalemate right? He couldn't

really advance. I couldn't really advance and he kind of just let his gaze like wander off to the

right like he was looking at something and then I kind of like what's over there and then I got

thrown and it's like. So first of all for people don't know sales say a nagi drop means when you

drop to your knees and say a nagi is one of the fundamentals of judo there's just just a handful

but does that actually ever work? I was wondering that about like boxing or judo does the head

movement of the person work because we're still like kind of dogs at heart if you look somewhere

with a dog the dog is going to look that direction as well does that actually work ever? It does

but on a greater sense what you try to do is not necessarily get like a physical reaction

of a look but a lull of security where like they've almost like relaxed for that split second because

you've lured them into like a sense of comfort and then that's when you can strike. So you have

this speaking of say nagi you have this gigantic standing say nagi and you have a specific grip

one of our challenges is there's a large number of people that listen to the audio version of this

so we're gonna have to try to describe some of this stuff I'll do my best to try to describe

with words but you grip with your left hand on the lapel of the jacket or like that area

and there's kind of a lean into the person and I suppose is there a feeling of a lull there

that you're trying to get to where you're just it feels like you're both calmly dancing before

you turn your hips and go in for the throw? I'm actually trying to create a sense of weightlessness

for my lead leg which would be my right leg and a sense of resistance from my partner. So aren't

you both kind of leaning into each other? Into each other and it creates like an A frame

yeah but when the A frame is held together at the top half which would be my left hand and

their right hand posted on each other's chest it means our legs are free to move and our hips are

free to move right and they're not going to feel your leg move because of the weightlessness and

is there a feeling like for them is there feeling like nothing bad can happen here we're all relaxed

everything's fine yeah and and then they're standing off at a funny angle and before they

know it I've spun and my back is on their chest and they can't go anywhere yeah yeah uh how did

you first develop that throw so for people um it's called iponse nagi which means your right

hand goes under their like armpit area and that that's like a vice that connects you to them

yeah and then they get go on for the ride yeah the interesting thing with the standing one is

as opposed to drop san agi version the drop san agi you kind of drop under them and because

there's a vice they're like pulled pulled under and like over yeah with the standing one I suppose

there's some similar physics but you're kind of loading them onto your hip and so they're in the

air while you're standing still there's there's a there's a sense in which they're like you're

lifting them above where they started yes that's how you get the really big air yeah if obviously if

if everything is right so how did you first develop that how did you first I first learned

just learning like the very basics of the throw you know foot placement all that kind of stuff and

then you know like anything the basics are nice um but once you get good at the basics it's it's

very easy to stop but it gives you a good like fundamental platform to learn off of and to

expand off of and then I expanded when I first started watching koga the new wind right because

he's the one that first like introduced that split hip style san agi that I do um once I

learned that one I built about eight different variations of sale off that one start position

that way I could regardless of your defense I had an answer for a throw so why that one though why

can you uh can you describe love to me Travis Stevens why did you fall in love with that throw

in particular um it it was really a sense of you know one of my shortcomings as a kid like

like I hate leg day in the gym I hate it with a passion I if you asked me to do a squat I'll

I'll get it done but I will bitch and moan every step of the way I hate it I remember

one time I was at the gym with my trainer and he goes okay we're gonna do front squats and I

want you to put 225 on the bar and I was like I can't do that and he was like what do you mean

you can't do that and I go I physically I can't do that and he was like are you serious and I go yeah

so he's he didn't believe me we put 225 on the bar and I bottomed out and then he was like okay let's

go down to 185 and I was like I can't do that I just it's not happening you probably couldn't

strength wise you just refuse I just mentally I cannot wrap my head around like this ain't happening

I'm not doing it so I ended up with like your main principle 90 do like 95 pounds on the bar

I got you at a front squat no problem by the way body weight squats are rough too psychologically

so yeah I just when it comes to my legs like I want no part of like leg pressing single leg

squats split squat any of that want no part of it so you think like the more traditional variants

of saying I'll give require you to have that leg strength yeah that mass like when you watch Japanese

judo players like their thighs and their hips they're thick they got a lot of power there

so you're almost like always dropping a little bit into a squat position for mine never no no

not you sorry for that the traditional ones yeah and so the split hip the split hip actually allows

me to keep my leg straight yeah and the farther I split my legs the lower my center of gravity goes

now I don't need my legs yeah perfect love it let's do it so that's the way you were thinking

okay yeah but it's you know the interesting thing about it is because you know as I mentioned to you

I've gotten to judo after first watching you in the Olympics and then watching koga as well

and so you start imitating the people you first see and then you take it to judo coaches and

they're like no no no that's the wrong way to do it and happens all the time it drives me nuts

drives me nuts I was in Poland one time yeah teaching a camp and I had two coaches

is anti coaching telling their kids not to do say oh the way I do it because it never works

yeah it's crazy how do you have the fortitude and the guts to just go on with a throw that's

not traditional the variant that's not traditional if you think about it you know from a very basic

like root of it there's a philosophy and a mentality of judo of how the throws work right

there's a mechanical structure there like this makes sense if I follow that principle I can do

anything I want nothing else matters as long as we follow those core principles so in the early

days even even then you were able to think on your own yeah and I was able to develop a pattern for

my foot placement based on my opponent's height because the number one thing any judo coach

will tell you is you need your center of gravity below yours well now I now I know exactly where

to put my feet because the shorter you are the bigger the split because the lower I need to get

the taller you are the less of a split I need is there something you could say about fundamental

principles of judo is there over all that time not 20 over 20 years that you've been doing judo

uh it's not approaching 30 is it yeah it's yeah it's going there okay it's getting over a couple

years away let's get in there is there some like principles that have emerged like you said you

have to have your center of gravity below theirs yep is there other kind of both on the gripping

side the footwork side leverage anything you can speak to there's some that have with stood like

time like you have to be able to get below their center of gravity because you have to be able

to rotate them around their center of gravity and then the other one is that was always a

principle when I was growing up and I didn't change until later on in my career was you have to be

able to pull you need to be able to pull to get them off balance but when you think about that

statement as a whole it ended with they have to be off balance I don't need the pull to get you

off balance I just need you off balance and when you think about it that way it allows you to open

up the doors to what do I need to do to get you off balance I could push pull I could flinch I could

fake and you could put yourself in your own off balance state right when you think about people

who wrestle right if I fake shoot it causes you to over lean forward which means you're off balance

there's no pull there's no push there's no nothing I just get a reaction that leaves the

opportunity in the door open for an attack and that off balance could be very subtle could be

very subtle and the better you get and the more skills you get the less subtle it is so we should

also mention that there is something called forward throws where you throw the person you know

they they're gonna fly facing forward they're gonna fly forward and then a backward throw is

they're gonna fly back yeah and then there's lateral you know they actually go sideways over

like a cartwheel almost okay so the forward throws there's the one we've been talking about which is

say nagi and there's a bunch of different variants ipan maroto say nagi there's drop and

there's standing versions of them and that all I don't know if there's a way to summarize it

but that's like as clean as a getting your center of gravity under theirs as it gets

and then the rest is just gripping variations yep I guess it's all gripping variations on all of

these throws but and then there is in terms of forward throws there's the other big one in

competition is uchimata which is I don't know we can try to explain that one but it ends up being

where one you're standing on just one of your feet and the other one is up in the air and I

don't know if you'll put in that same category haraigoshi like those kinds of throws where you're

kind of a little bit single footed yeah so there's two footed techniques and then they're single

footed yeah oh goshi where it's like you're doing a mix between the uchimata and the say nagi yeah

it's a hug you you hug a person and then you turn your hips around such that you're now hugging

facing the same direction when it comes to forward throw there's regardless of the name of the throw

or the gripping variation that you're using the whole principle is how do I get this person to

do a forward roll in midair and land on their back the more of a forward roll I can get the

bigger the score if I get like a quarter of a turn where like you land on your side and you

don't go over your back it's a half score yeah but they all require me to get you to do that

forward rolling action so just if we think of one person if they do this nice leap forward

and they do a roll and their back nicely rolls over the ground you're trying to do the exact

same thing with you connected to them well and if it's nice and it's smooth it's probably not a

full score it needs to have like somewhat of a violent impact right so if you think of a drop

say nagi if I if I'm moving too slow and you still roll over your shoulders and there's no

direct impact it's only a half score right they want the force the force the violence yeah it's good

okay so then in terms of backward throws the traditional ones there's stuff where you trip them

from outside their body like Osoto gari it's a trip where you hook your leg onto their leg and you

trip them but your hook it goes outside of their legs and then there's the trips from inside their

body there's a one foot is called kuchigari and then the others kuchigari doesn't matter the most

important thing is outside and inside and then there is like I don't even know how you throw them

sideways except foot sweeps and then there's the foot sweeps where you can sweep one of their legs

from out of them or both their legs at the same time and like we were talking about this kind of

is when timed perfectly it's effortless for everybody involved and the ending like you said

is big dramatic and violent yeah is there other kind of oh yeah there's a sacrifice techniques

yeah there's a bunch of them and that ultimately the variations have to do with gripping but you're

basically you the attacker fall onto your back sticking your legs somewhere onto onto their

body which is like this fulcrum over which they fly and do that same kind of roll that you mentioned

you basically sacrifice your back to the mat in order to throw them into that circular pattern

so they hit their back sometimes we use a foot sometimes we don't and so we should probably say

it's okay for you to go on to your back as long as you're clearly demonstrating control over the

other person's body correct you can't go to your back in the same direction that your opponent is

trying to put you to your back right you have to go the other way or you have to initiate

you going to your own back right like clearly and then and then there's all the counters which

almost kind of have a whole group of their own even though they have echoes of the same types

of techniques it seems like they're their own whole thing yeah but they follow the same principles

it's just most counters like if you wanted to counter Enuchimada for example you're trying

to throw me in a somersault over my right shoulder therefore I would counter you by

throwing you over your left shoulder it goes in the opposite shoulder direction but in the same

somersault idea and there used to be I already forget at this point forget the years but it

might be 20 before the 2012 Olympics where they banned you used to be allowed to grab legs in the

same way you do in wrestling so you have basically all the techniques you would have in wrestling

available to you if you would like yeah it's just that some of the techniques in wrestling

are not that effective for getting your opponent to their back yeah wrestlers want to take the

other person down in any way possible and have control judo wants to take you down like we said

in a big fashion where your back slams on the ground yeah it has to be to the back a lot of

wrestling takedowns happen because they get behind them yeah and then they they partare out yeah so

but the judo banned all touching of the legs which is very dramatic change of the sport

but after 2012 after it was after 2012 so 2008 I fought the games and everything was free

and 2012 we could only touch the legs as a defensive action or in response to an attack

so I could try to throw you with a normal throw and then when you try to counter I could grab

your leg right so there had to be a secondary technique and didn't like didn't they disqualify

on a first offense first offense was a direct disqualification which happened at the 2012 games

to the 57 brazilian who won in 16 yeah she was dq'd and I think the quarters yeah and it was like

I wouldn't say it was blatant as much as I don't think the act changed the outcome of the match

had they not disqualified sure so that's not that dramatic and by the way you say 57

that refers to weight divisions and that's in kilograms and kilograms is the measure of weight

that the rest of the world uses and the United States does not so and there's uh we should say

the divisions for for guys um I don't know what the 70 I don't know the lower level 60 66 73

and 81 90 100 and heavyweight which has no ceiling no ceiling as we'll talk about yeah it is an

important distinction um so and you competed most of your career at 81 kilograms all of it all you

never did I never did 73 but you had to cut big for 81 anyway especially towards the end of my career

yeah okay uh I overly grew into the division what's uh I'm trying to remember is that I bought 180

pounds 178.6 I think and you have to weigh in with the the the geek no nothing you're not allowed to

wear anything except for your underwear let's weigh in sorry confusing digits so that's right that's

right that's right that's which is very nice um okay so we we just say we covered most of the

throws and no so there's the forward and the backward there's the sacrifice throws and the

counters yeah and the and then there's the leg grabs and we should say for the leg grabs that were

effective it's like um the big pickups where you just kind of pick them up and try to figure out

once they're in the air what the heck to do with their body to get them to the ground you just

kind of figure it out as you go I think the really nice one that was to me heartbreaking as a fantasy

go is I guess what's called a fireman's carry which is uh you know it does lead to judo like beautiful

throws and the fact that that was gone is is that one I missed a little bit but then a bunch of people

I guess came up with the variance where you don't need to grab the leg it's definitely not as effective

as being able to grab it but I'm also on the side of the fence having competed in all three

it was definitely better for the sport to remove it as a whole it's probably good to cover sort of

the whole spectrum of rules of judo is there's ground work so there's uh you do all the stuff

on the feet where you're trying to murder each other with a giant throw but then you know if the

throw doesn't succeed you go to the ground and you stay in the ground for some amount of time

like short amount of time you have to move quickly you have to be attacking and two of the ways you

can win is similar to people who do jiu jitsu is you can submit them uh chokes arm breaks all that

kind of stuff no foot locks and uh and you can also pin them yeah which is get around their legs and

this is very no this is not like wrestling you have to actually get around their legs and uh pin

them in what in jiu jitsu is called side control mount all kinds of ways that doesn't involve their

legs yeah and then you pin them for like whatever 20 seconds 25 seconds yeah 20 seconds now I think

the distinction is their back has to be facing the mat you have to be past their legs and your

chest has to be on the same plane as theirs yeah so it doesn't have to necessarily be on top but it

has to be on the same plane yeah and all of this is I think different sports of different versions

of this but it's like an approximation of what dominance looks like yeah so pin and wrestling

is dominating your opponent presumably if you were in a street fight that position allows you to

then do a lot of damage obviously submissions is dominance because you're breaking their arm or

choking them to uh uh unconscious and then obviously the throw which is not often talked about but

like if you talk about a street fight situation a throw is like the best way to murder somebody

like this could end anyone's life yes it's terrifying actually so okay so these are whole

elements of dominance so going back to set of principles you were mentioning getting your

center of mass under theirs which I think applies for type of um like the forward senagi throws is

there is there other stuff um obviously you mentioned off balance yeah there's the off balance one

where you can either pull to get an off balance or you can give way to the force which can also

lead to an off balance um you can amplify somebody's force to so for example if you push me you expect

a certain reaction that you're ready for but if you push me and I pull you now you didn't expect

that much force coming out of you therefore you're off balance the thing that's distinctly

recognizable about judo is like when done at the highest level like it's it seems effortless

when the big throw happens yeah like that's just it doesn't there is no other sport like it in the

combat sports where it's like when the timing is right everything just is perfect I think you get

that out of my mate and um boxing sometimes when this is a knockout yeah perfect strike just like

yeah what they but it's not just like a hard hit it's like it's almost like the with Conor

McGregor and Aldo for example when you just catch him just right and that you didn't look like you

hit him that hard yeah but he hit him just right yeah and then you get to see this all the time in

judo it's fascinating and so the beginning part of that is because there's a jacket there's also

this whole thing that your master of which is like which is gripping yeah so is there something you

can say about are there some fundamental principles of gripping that you can speak to and like what

the hell is gripping gripping is having the ability to hold your opponent in such a way where you

have the ability to be offensive and also the ability to be defensive at the same given time

and it's a distinction because I can hold you in such a way where I might be able to feel offensive

but if you can take a purely defensive grip and then I can't be offensive we are no longer gripping

we are holding each other right right so like that would be the act of being able to grip

is to be in a situation where you have me and I have you and I can play both offense and defense

at the same time where you can only play defense so Donahar talks about like jiu jitsu that way

and not that way but maybe you can see if there's a distinction so you have a set of weapons the

other person has a set of weapons you want to sort of maximize the use of your weapons and shut down

the set of weapons that they have that they have you see gripping the same way on the on the feet

I do if we want to include body positioning with our gripping

all right okay because I can give you any grip you want and you still can't throw me

because I can put myself in a position that nullifies your ability to use those grips in a

successful way and those would you say the hips are critical to that or is it everything hips

shoulders chin position head position you know the angle of your foot yeah yeah where you mean

wow okay and so uh and there's a bunch of places you can grip obviously if people

like kind of think of a jacket like there's a bunch of places you can grip that are interesting

so you can grip on the collar you can grip on the sleeves you can grip like the elbow joint

yep and then you could do uh those badass like Eastern European Georgian over the back over

the opposite sides of the heads yeah the Koreans that grab on one side around the head with their

hands together yeah there's something really nice about just those like I mean especially

Georgia's just throwing that hand yes just over the person and just if you're not actually gripping

a belt or anything you're gripping just the entirety of like as opposed to being all nice

so I'm going to grab this part of the jacket this part of the jacket you're just like taking

the whole fucking jacket it and just launching somebody for those people that can't picture

judo think about it in like if you understood like what a boxing match looks like and you

thought about that as like traditional gripping when you throw like a Russian grip over the back

that's more like a hockey fight like I'm just grabbing you and we're just gonna we're gonna

be throwing punches left and right because when we have that grip somebody has to get thrown yeah

there's no there's no we don't walk around with this grip it's it's go time once somebody throws it

to me as a as a fan and sort of amateur practitioner there's two styles of Olympic level judo

one is where you're trying not to get thrown and the other is where you're trying to throw

more specifically when you're trying not to get thrown there's like the strategy that you're using

gripping to nullify their offense and all those kinds of stuff you're you're being very clever

and strategic and all that you know maybe using conditioning and then there is people who just

like step in the pocket and they don't almost don't care if they're getting thrown because

they have the confidence that they're going to throw first yeah and those like there's a clear

distinction between the people that do one or the other and I think both can be done extremely

successfully at the highest level it's just like obviously you admire the people that step in the

pocket and and I think when you look at the people who do judo the best like if we want to talk about

like the top 10% of the people who would compete at the games they do both and they do both really

well but they favor one because if you look at a player like uh luteppatiliani of georgia for

example there's a guy that stands in the pocket but we can find numerous occasions where he's

hustled some people for like a short period of time to get out of scenarios to elongate the

match to make somebody tired so you want both sides of the coin but you better pick the one that

you know 80 percent of your strategy is going to be built around sorry for the romantic question but

I talked to dan gable and uh he always looked to the russians as um as the artists in wrestling

and uh he always wanted to be an artist but I think he's known for being that sort of

guts aggression mental toughness guy but he always was drawn to the artistry of wrestling

it's hard to know when you just watch you because it looks like you're aggressive and you got the

guts and the mental toughness but there's also obviously a mastery of technique which would

you lean towards in terms of what accounts for your success and just the way you approach judo

is it the the guts the aggression the mental toughness and or is it the mastery of technique

the artistry mine would be my my aggressiveness if i'm gonna pick those two areas um

but i think there's a third area in there that i would put myself in where i'm more of a strategist

i look at all of my opponents and all i ever see is their faults and the way i do judo is built

around their faults and it's just i put myself in scenarios where i don't even know how i'm

gonna win but what i've done in those scenarios is i've made it very difficult for you to win

and then i figure out the rest as i go like how do you study an opponent are there bins you can

put them in like there's a lefty and a righty or yep that's kind of stuff how many bins are

there in judo you might that you put your opponents in yeah there's probably about 20

there's like certain players who you could put in a category of like they're only good for the first

you know two thirds of the match after that they turn into a different player where they're either

falling into a sense of panic or uncertainty and you can if you were to take a video clip of

let's say churches villi right they got george and i beat in the olympic semi he's somebody that would

beat you in the first three minutes and if you clipped out all of his matches and you only watched

the first three minutes of every match you would see one style if you found all the matches where

he got taken into the last minute and he wasn't winning by a a major score you would see a completely

different fighter and so going into like my olympic semi i put him into that category of like

i want to get to this guy because this guy is beautiful the trick is how do you get there how

do you get there and by the way we're talking about the 2016 olympics where you won the silver

medal you're part of uh three different olympics but the cardio aspect of it have you faced exhaustion

often in your matches where you have to go deep and go like past yeah but that's not from the judo

side of it that's from like i did a very bad job of making weight it's always the way cut yeah it's

always the way cut and i think people really struggle with that they blame cardio and training

and everything else but when it really comes down to it like we train for an hour and a half two

hours twice a day how are you tired after five minutes right right it becomes into a mental

struggle your anxiety your stress your lack of belief in yourself or in my case sometimes it's

poor nutrition sometimes i had one too many mcdonalds meals it just it happens okay so let's

talk about weight cutting real quick so i've i've seen weight cutting break some of the toughest

fighters wrestlers grapplers ever like burnout break like where they makes you want to quit

the sport yeah um so you know this is what people don't often talk about but mentally

is one of the hardest things especially when you're doing it kind of wrong because it becomes a

mental war so you competed like you said your whole career at 81 kilograms you walked around at

88 89 it's about 15 pounds sometimes 20 pounds over that give or give or take and so what uh

what was your process like mentally and physically first of all maybe you can comment on when the

weigh ins are relative to the matches and then what was your process like leading like a week ahead

a day ahead an hour ahead minutes ahead of the weigh in man everyone varies tremendously because

we're not like most sports because you're dropped off in foreign countries with who knows what right

some places have sauna some places have treadmills i went to a place one time in china in the middle

of winter where the roads were frozen with ice and we had to use our hotel rooms because it was

you couldn't sweat outside because it was too cold right um and every one of my olympics the weight

cut was different just given my mass when i went to 2008 i was probably like 82 83 kilos walking

around so weight cutting wasn't a thing for me in london we actually weighed in the morning of

so weigh ins were at like 6 a.m and the olympics were always beneficial to me because they actually

don't start until like 10 or 11 so you actually were able to recover where on the circuit you would

weigh in at 6 a.m and the competition started at 8 a.m it's like well i was cutting weight at 5 a.m

and most of it for people who are not familiar but maybe you can also correct me most of it you're

really just getting the water out of your system it was water at that point yeah it's like 24 hours

before even like so are you like an hour before but yeah but like leading up to it um and do

have you eaten the day before do you try to minimize the amount of food in your system

my weight cutting process was a little bit different than the most people because

i like to eat um i'm not i'm not the type of person that believes your athletic career is

determined by your nutrition right i don't i don't believe that i think some sports are built that

way but when it comes to combat sports like you know your ability to knock somebody out has nothing

to do with whether you had a cheeseburger or a salad my ability to throw you is not determined

by that i may be able to perform better because i've eaten a certain way but not enough to justify

an entire diet change your body is built and my body is built to operate with certain things that

i've had in my system for years yeah i think uh i'm with you but i also believe that there's a

mental aspect so if you're surrounded by people that tell you diet matters then if your diet is

off you're going to believe you're going to be off because the people around you tell you your

diet should be good so yeah i think it's like it's the same i i've had an argument with

matthew walker who's uh who's a sleep scientist about sleep and it's like if you believe sleep is

essential it's essential to get eight hours of sleep every single night perfectly then you're

going to be very stressed when you don't get it and then i think you will negatively affect

the stress will negatively affect your longevity and all kinds of aspects of your life if you

actually just learn to truly listen to your body become a scientist if you're on body with sleep

and food it might end up that it will be the eight hours a night or whatever but it might be something

else and probably diet or i remember when i was meeting with the usoc nutritionist after

london it was probably around 2014 i think and when we had our team meeting at the beginning

of the year and i was talking to him he was talking about the nutrition plans that he could put us

on and i was like time out i've done the usoc thing like i've done the couscous i've done the

lemon in my water i go i'm full shit the couscous yeah oh boy like there was just because there's

like a cookie cutter plan right right and i was like look here's what i want you to do i go i'll

listen to you but you're gonna walk into the 711 across the street from the usoc and if you can't

buy it in that 711 it's not on my plan right i go because i go to places where the only thing i can

eat is pringles and a snickers bar i've done that like i've flown to azerba jawn stayed in a hotel

where the restaurant is closed usajudo hasn't paid for the meal plan and the only thing that's

available is the thing across the street so you were eating pringles before fighting a grand slam

event while cutting 20 pounds and a snickers bar yeah i just the visual of that that's some like

that's some rocky shit okay build me a nutrition plan go for it because i'm not paying my own way

to travel with 14 days of food right i mean that's that's one of the magic of your whole career

and also judo i mean i'm sorry to say of course you want athletes to be super rich

and super well funded from an athlete perspective and the sport to be popular and managed in an

ultra competent way but as that's not reality but as a fan it's fun to watch somebody like you

who's exceptionally driven have to suffer in all these interesting ways but it's it's only

suffering if you expect the other side i don't expect it i accept it for what it is which is

why i write off nutrition for athletes right because it can be done without it as long as

you know to what you said before like you don't believe you need it some people believe they need

it the mind getting your mind right is the most important thing you know what i believe i need

what's that a snickers bar when i'm tired i want a little bit of sugar makes me feel better

you want me to see you uh what are you gonna do yes i just love the the the visual of you

eating a snickers bar before that's became but that became part of my nutrition plan when the

usoc guy wrote my nutrition plan i was eating a burrito bowl with brown rice white meat chicken

black beans guacamole cheese two chocolate chip cookies and a diet coke this is like chipotle uh

it was below code but same concept same concept would because it's two chocolate chip cookies

because i needed the sugar i was i was 88 kilos when i stepped on the scale at 6.3

percent body fat now i got to make 81 you know six what really yeah and the usoc was like hey

you know you can't you can't fight 81 anymore you have to fight 90s and i go i'm already into the quad

i'm not changing i go build me a plan where i can do this and now we have to have an acceptable

weight cut like it just what do you want me to do i'm not the ijf i can't just change the fact that

it takes two years to qualify i know where i'm at i know what i have to go through and i accept

the consequences it is what it is we want all right so what was the process i mean it can you

can you speak to so you you wake up early in the morning the the day of the weigh ins a few hours

before technically my weight cut never started until i got off a plane and to a hotel and how many

hours three days so it's a three day cut to three day mentally you're thinking of it that way

yeah and then you're still eating i eat every day and then like what do you load up on water maybe

as you start and then nope or the water stops it is what it is so you i mean it's a slow

slow you're not actually like sweating all three days yeah but then it's like torture to sleep

part of the process are you able to sleep sometimes it depends so you're dehydrated

further and further dehydrated with six seven percent body fat trying to lose 10 pound i even

developed a way to drink water out of a bottle where i don't drink anything but i feel like i have

uh swishing it was the no so like i take like a bottle of water and like if we were to like

to draw a line on it i would tip it and i would go like this i go

and you would draw that line but like i've drank now water for 20 seconds or whatever it is

and i feel i i get the fix yeah brain told me i got there no problem that's amazing man

you just your mind's a very powerful tool and the the problem a lot of people have is

they don't accept the reality of the situation they bitch about the reality of the situation i just

first of all you could always quit right yep so like you're not that's never missed weight

never never missed you can you can perform poorly you can't miss weight don't miss weight

don't miss weight because you you can always win regardless of how bad the weight cut is

you can never win if you miss weight but your your brain is also really good maybe not your brain

but i know my brain i think most people's brains are good at generating the more desperate things

become the better it's generating excuses so what were you doing with your mind

that resulted in you never missing weight the plan so like i said like my weight cut would

never start until i got to the hotel because i didn't check my weight the morning of i didn't

check my weight when i got there i just while i'm traveling i'm doing things at like a minimal level

but i'm never not giving myself something i'm craving

if i'm thirsty i'm drinking a diet coke if i'm hungry i'm buying a snickers bar

i'm buying a sandwich i am and i accept the consequences when i get there and then when

i get there if i step on the scale and it says 88 kilos i instantaneously know exactly what

it's going to take to be 81 and then you just follow like a robot follow a very specific process

yep and then i mean because there's a lot of seconds in three days seconds and minutes and

you just i just know exactly what it takes from my body i know exactly what a one hour gym workout

wearing a sauna suit is going to take i know exactly what i'm going to lose on day one and i

know exactly what i'm going to lose on day three because they're not the same so i can instantly

look at a hotel decide is there a bathroom sauna gym temperature of the gym access to the gym and

when it is access to the judo mats my training partners the roads versus streetlights the weather

outside i can take a look at that environment and say this is my weight this is weigh ins and

instantaneously in my head there's a plan to make weight and you have a sense of how much sweat adds

up to to 10 pounds how much sweat plus time yeah just and i make sure in my plan all of my meals

and how much water i need in between is allocated to still make weight because you have to eat or

drink during that time are you incorporating like mental exhaustion into this that doesn't exist

it doesn't it doesn't do you like meditators like what did the thoughts come especially three days

we're not talking about four hours of suffering i'll tell you this has broken some of the toughest

people in the world the hardest weight cut i ever had yeah hardest one um i fought pan am games in

2015 in edmonton canada on a wednesday and i won so i i've made weight on tuesday i fought on wednesday

where i had to weigh in five percent of my weight class so 84 kilos on wednesday i was 84 kilos i got

on a plane on that wednesday night and landed friday morning in sochi okay so i've traveled now

i got on the scale all my bags got lost everything so somehow i flew from there to hear

no bags and i threw all of my stuff in my bag i wore sandals one pair of pants and a t shirt on

the plane because i was like i'm just tired i just fought like i don't even want to carry it i don't

care what are the odds that i get there my bags are gone yeah very low very low sure enough it's

gone i get all the way to sochi i check into the hotel there's one sauna guess what you have to reserve

it and you're only allowed to reserve it for an x period of time guess get a small tangent when you

phone out your bags are gone this is something i'll often think about there's like people that are

helping you right like that there's a person in the airport who goes yep oops just like that

and then the person at the hotel who tells you that you have to reserve the sauna and looks at you

like you're yep they don't care that you've been suffering they don't you're they don't even understand

why you need it yeah like why oh you know oh this like uh like this little kid reserved it for five

hours or something to block it off or i'm sorry um is there a frustration that gets in there are you

just accept reality don't don't even hinder on like the things you can't change because the second

you get frustrated the second you think you can change it you'll harp on it and that breaks most

men yeah that like little thing in the back of their mind thinking all like what if there's no

what if like there's only right here right now yeah it doesn't work it doesn't work let's just quickly

come up with a solution to fix the problem by the way as another small tangent all the greatest

people i've interacted with at the highest level think like that they don't linger on the no it's

like the next thing yeah because like if you want to do something great hard stuff is going to keep

happening to you and if you're going to let that affect you you're not ever going to do the great

thing yeah it's fascinating actually like that's the one skill you have to learn um Elon Musk is

great at this constantly dealing with emergencies okay okay this happened what's the next step yep

accept it's not that big of a deal every problem has a solution yeah yeah and if i can't solve it

it's not my problem you know what i'm gonna do yeah exactly so what uh so how'd you figure it out

in sandals get this i get to the hotel yeah i check in i don't even know about the sauna yet

i go i need to find a clothing store i'm in the middle of russia i open up google maps and i'm like

sports store i find an adidas sports store in the middle of sochi russia right i spend like

five hundred dollars on like average sweats no plastics no nothing and no running shoes because

they don't have any what's the temperature outside it's cold it was kind of like springish so it wasn't

cold but it wasn't hot yeah so you still need a lot of layers preferably you would need a lot of

layers just to cut the amount of weight i'm about to tell you i have to cut because after i bought

that stuff that next morning and mind you it's a friday it's a friday morning i go to the venue where

we have the mats open to train and i step on the scale and then sagin bat tarb mongolia goes

oh pretty good you're almost there and i go oh no no i'm not i stepped on the scale at almost

94 kilos and i looked at him and i was like i'm 81 and he went good luck you're almost there

yeah for the next weight class above uh this is on a saturday or friday morning no no sorry

friday morning the the competition is one sunday sunday i weigh in sunday okay all right holy crap

i throw on all my layers and there's one other person with me there kalita who's my girlfriend

at the time now my wife we start doing judo because i'm like this will be the easiest way to knock off

like three or four kilos well it's cold i have no ghee and i'm working out with a female i can't get

like overly physical to like really get my muscles going to really break that sweat because

she has to compete in a day or two she's not a training partner you can't just use this person

then i stepped on the scale i was 91 kilos so i mean well i was a nice den but like workout

yeah i go that's that's not gonna fly so sure enough the clothes are now ruined they didn't

help me lose any extra weight so i go back to the hotel and i start reserving the sauna

do you know how hard it is to lose that much weight in a sauna by yourself so it's hard on many

levels but one of them is just mental yeah you're sitting in heat heat and you're not doing anything

like if there had been a bike or like the sauna was big enough to use a jump rope or you could do

some sort of activity but you just sit and you stew and you're there mentally at one point during

the weight cut i actually had my mouth on the bottom part of the door where there was a little

gap and my legs up on the benches and kalita holding the door so that it didn't open so i

couldn't open it so that i could lean against that thing and have fresh air because i was like

i was struggling and we're talking about i mean how many hours is that hours and then the thing is

is because you have to reserve the sauna i can't even take like a 30 minute break because the

sauna is not going to be mine in an hour which means you have to use the sauna and the heat

for that a lot of time period and i hate saunas that is always my last resort i would use a bath

i will train i will run i will jump rope saunas like oh let me do that for 10 minutes after

all of my gym workouts just to keep the sweat going while i stretch and cool down that's never

like the hey i'm gonna do five 10 minute sessions because i need to lose two kilos that is never

the plan yeah but i mean so i've done plenty of sauna for weight cuts to know i can't even imagine

what you went through yeah the seconds slow down that's one way to achieve immortality is like

the time flows down to like a stop and you're left alone with your thoughts you can't do anything

just like you said you can't there's nothing worse than sitting in that kind of heat for 10 15 minutes

yeah and then you walk out and you're not even sweating yeah there's nothing worse than that

and if you like and maybe if you weigh yourself which you probably shouldn't be doing because

it'll break you yep you haven't lost anything yep and i was weighing myself every time because

i only get breaks when i was hitting weight allotments and so if i could lose 0.3 in 10 minutes

i'd give myself a break but i had to hit certain numbers because i only have the sauna for a certain

amount of time and i remember one time i went downstairs to get my key to the sauna and the

japanese team had reserved it and took it from me because the guy didn't put my name on the list

when i called down to get the sauna so i lost an entire session that i had to get made up

towards the later part of the day because i still have no running shoes and then sure enough

my bags show up 30 minutes after weigh ins great that's like the universe is kind of giving you

a little wink there yeah i think like because so few people do this weight cut at this high of a

level people don't often realize because people get a sense of how hard it is to run 200 miles in a

desert like they because they go outside here in texas you can run five miles oh it's hard

but like the weight cut is really i can you so you just uh like how did you do it just fucking not

refusing to you have to make weight you have to make weight and you just that's i am astounded

when i hear like ufc players like miss weight right like when jaden cox missed weight at the

olympic trials i was like at least his was understandable because he missed the actual

weigh ins he didn't he wasn't like not on weight but when ufc fighters like miss weight i'm like

how did that happen you clearly like gave up a long time ago there were times where i was like

but i can't do this there have been times where i've been in a in a sauna suit wrestling with a

training partner who's probably 60 kilos who fought earlier that day to lose point three

did lose point three like are you considering your mortality in this moment like aren't you

thinking you're gonna die because like it's severe dehydration you could damage your body

i do are you thinking about any of this or is it just uh man okay yes but yeah i'm i'm on the

other level too where like i've been in belgium right belgium there used to be a b level tournament

and the tournament used to go on and because i was always on the heavier side like 81s fights on

the second day which is the heavyweight day weigh ins were always at like let's say 2 p.m the day

before for that tournament well there was a sauna at the tournament i remember like being in the sauna

and like oh i'm 80.9 kilos weigh ins aren't for three hours fucking i'm gonna have lunch

because i i mentally understand that what i eat right now is gonna fuel me for tomorrow

so i don't want to skip it i have the time to put it into my system and still lose it right it's

almost like a computer program you're running through the process you haven't i i get it but

like that all relies on your ability to be um to get it back off yeah i mean but also just like go

through this process which is painful it's like those monks who meditate while sitting in a fire

kind of thing or something right like it that uh yeah it's it's uh it's really interesting is there

other people that are critical to this or is this all internal to you are there people that

you know everybody has their own way of doing it um some people don't cut that much some people

can't wait cut it all right they would rather have been like 83 kilos fighting 90 than you know be 83

kilos fighting 81 so why did you never move up to 90 uh what's your sense is it from your

deep understanding of your own judo and like the judo opponents you would face at 90 and 81

because 81 is probably the hardest if not the second hardest division in the history of judo

compared to 73 and 81 you know when i was a kid like i always wanted to be like the middleweight

olympic champion like the 81 kilo olympic champion when i was in high school i made a decision when

i was trying to make weight for 73 i was like this is i was cutting weight for 73 like i was

cutting weight at the end of my career right and i was like i'm just gonna bag it i'm gonna accept

the fact that i may not make a junior world team i may not make this team but i'll grow into the

division so when i'm a senior player like i'm ready to go and i'll naturally be stronger there's an

understanding of like a growth process when you move up a weight class most people can't just

oh i'm gonna fight nineties and i'm gonna win because i won an 81 the style of judo is different

how you move is different how they do things is different there's like a learning curve that goes

into it and because the weight cut didn't really happen until i was getting ready for real i wasn't

about to have my last olympic games be at a different weight class that i may or may not be able to

grow into i mean this is an awesome story of you kind of decided that this will be your life's work

in terms of judo competitor is like the 81 division i'm going to i mean i don't know if you saw it

that way but you're talking about three olympics and it's like this story of i would say tragedy and

triumph of just wars in 81 kilograms with with the usual cast of characters of the you know top

five in the world kind of thing so you just became a scholar of that let your body grow into it and

then let your body outgrow it and still suffer through it to keep it in the 81 kilograms

you never competed at like at the highest levels at 90 i entered one tournament at 90 kilos um and

that was because before rio from 20 from the end of 2014 all the way up until rios every time i fought

i got hurt every time there was no time where i made weight and got injured because my body weight

was so high my body fat was so low that by the time i dehydrated enough to get down there and you

take the physicality of judo and throw that into the mix something broke every time it was like

nature of the beast so the plan was before rio we made an agreement with us a judo that travish

you're going to fight 90 kilos but you're not going to weigh in at 90 kilos like hey there's no like

you get to be 94 kilos and cut to 90s there's like a you're going to step on the scale at 84

kilos like a little bit of a weight cut but not a full one just so that you feel like you get into

like the tournament because when i around 2012 when i was talking with the usoc nutritionist i

actually got my weight down so much that i didn't really need to cut weight the problem is i wasn't

cutting weight i didn't feel like i was competing got it right there's you have to go through like

that mental process and i never really reworked that it was easier to just cut the weight and be

ready to go but when i entered into the 90 kilo division i was rushed to the hospital the night

after because my body broke out in hives like full body what they had to they said it was stress

induced so a month before the games i was hospitalized and hungry and filled with steroids

to get the hives to drop and every couple days my body when i got back home i would end up in

the hospital because my whole body would break out again i wonder if it's like deviating from

the process that you so like perfectly crafted already or it was stress from my mind thinking

like even though it's not top of mind there's probably a portion of me that like the olympics

is coming around and it could be my last that like my body just reacted to something chemically so

i was breaking out in hives i actually bought like a 600 euro hugo boss suit because when i was in

the netherlands training at the time i thought i had bedbugs because i was getting bit everywhere

then i thought there was something in the detergent at the local thing so i threw away all more

clothes like i was paying for showers because i was trying to get the detergent off my body

and buying new clothes at the airport trying to figure it out trying to figure it out just go

yeah accepting the situation i mean the but the level of stress is exceptionally high here

can we talk about the other side people are gonna love this but you're you have a long history

of persevering through injuries through insane amounts of injuries my ability to tolerate pain

is probably more than most people but see injuries aren't just pain right it's like it's also mental

like psychological like again like the weight cut it can make a lot of people quit yep can you

tell your history of injuries what are the biggest injuries the toughest injuries in your career

um starting from what your early teens my early teens um i actually got out of sports

from 11 to i would say like 15 years old 16 years old because a kid shot a double leg through my knee

cap and i partially tore all the ligaments in my knee cartilage meniscus the whole nine yards

and i had to learn how to walk again i spent two years in a leg brace crutches you know

hobbling around the schoolyard that one was a challenge to come back from um i've broken most

of my ribs i won nationals with nine broken ribs i was actually getting novocaine shots into my chest

to avoid feeling the pain and then wrapping them to try to make sure i didn't pop along

um i've broken my collar bone um i have five herniated disc in my neck i fractured my back twice

i've broken my tailbone i tore my si joints i've torn my right hamstring twice my left one

once um broken my ankles a few times i spun it once in a 360 that had depth surgery

fingers toes elbows shoulders so all of these are first of all you're uh you're a tough you're

tough dude man um so each of those have a story behind them so if you're talking about the collar

bone or the ankles uh or the back the neck is there interesting stories here that uh behind

these injuries heart training heart competing jiu jitsu judo so ground stuff like uh sparring in the

dojo or like drilling or all that kind of stuff is what if you were to sort of break it down your

understanding of the the last skip of injuries you went through i've never had one in jiu jitsu

ever i mean i might have like torn a fingernail or like you know gotten keyburn but i've never been

like seriously injured i know when panza straight ankle locked me at copepodio that hurt but i wasn't

injured like it felt sore but like if i had to run like i could run i can now understand probably

exactly what the injuries came from then you're very quickly excelled at jiu jitsu you have achieved

another level in judo and i think that means the intensity with which you approached judo

to achieve that world class level probably is the source of the injuries yeah because the mentality

of how i approached judo versus jiu jitsu jiu jitsu to me is like a game that like we would play

like if you wanted to like grab a basketball and like go play a game of one on one that's like jiu

jitsu to me like i can't take the sport in its entirety seriously because i feel like the community

of jiu jitsu doesn't take it seriously so just for people who don't know just to set some context

you're you're a black belt in jiu jitsu but more importantly you've beaten a lot of world

class jiu jitsu people you've done very well at the highest levels of competition yeah i would

necessarily say i've beaten them as much as i've trained with them and they understand whoever it

is that through training with me that like i'm not just a judo guy like i know how to do jiu jitsu

right and if any one of them were to come to me and like say hey you know i want to feel what it

feels like to do judo with me they would quickly understand that like the way i approach one is

very different than the way i approach the other like we probably wouldn't be friends

if they did judo with me versus if they did jiu jitsu with me i'm curious asking for a friend

because mostly because i'll do a little judo with you today so you clearly because you're a great

instructor and teacher you have a mode where you can demonstrate a technique do you know how to like

spar where you're going like 50 percent it's hard to put like a percentage to it because

i've never in all of my jiu jitsu ever gone a hundred percent in jiu jitsu yeah like i had a

conversation with salo one time where we were talking about like jiu jitsu and training and i

was like well if i got his arm i would just break it and he was like but what if he tapped i go

that's not my responsibility if he taps and the ref doesn't say anything you just break it you just

keep going yeah he goes but the tap means it's over and i said no the ref tells me when it's over

i go i never give you the opportunity to tap because if you have the opportunity to tap that

means you had the opportunity to think about how to get out make a decision that you can't

then tap i clearly operated too slowly yeah so there's a it's either broken or i don't have it

or i don't have it you're a terrifying person go against in jido like the on the ground like

everything you did that's that's amazing um that's really amazing that's what made you a really fun

person to watch because you really went to war with these people yeah so you know what it's like

to go a hundred percent in jido i do because i know what it's like to train with somebody under

the mentality of i'm gonna do everything i want to do you're gonna do nothing you want to do

and you're gonna accept that do you have a train in judo where where you let people get stuff of

course all the time now or like always even when you're sort of building up the four years building

up to the olympics like there's smaller guys that are throwing you in the gym and that kind of stuff

no i never said that okay that never came out of my mouth i said i let people do stuff i never

said smaller people throw me oh you mean you let them get a grip but then you'll position

yourself on such a way that it's it's it's hopeless like what the number one skill set that judo is

going to teach you is the ability to give people false hope right because i'm really looking forward

to the video we're gonna shoot like i can let you take a grip yeah i can let you think that

there's opportunity but what you don't understand is by the position and angle that i'm in it's

actually false hope yeah like as long as you don't know that it is then now i'm free to operate and

do what i want see i competed in judo against uh black belts where i would go in and it looks

like i could should be able to throw them and then you just hit a wall and then i also saw you

destroy those black belts yeah so there's levels to this yeah it's the the cliche thing of there's

black belts and there's black belts you're unique in this there may be a couple other uh judoka

in america but you're really like unique i then get to see people that really i felt like were

10x better than me it just feels like that sometimes i've learned that madness and it said

be truly might only be just a little better but i saw you destroy them and it was like holy

shit there's a thing in judo right where you know imagine like you as like just an adult right um

and i i hope people can like conceptualize this when they hear this but imagine like you're a full

grown adult even male female it doesn't matter but there's a little kid in front of you like call him

five or six years old and he's acting out like do you think you have the physical capability of

with one hand grabbing that person or that kid and making sure that they freeze like they feel

like they're nervous and like they can't do anything right when you fight a good judo player

when they grab you that's what it feels like as an adult yeah when people even i've felt that from

like certain players in japan like when they get a grip i'm like i've now lost the function of this

line yeah that's a really good way to put it i think i could potentially beat some of the people

of uh went against but certain groups they took it made me feel powerless yep i was like i didn't

know this was possible that kind of power was possible and you don't even know where it originates

from yeah because you're like how does one person's hand do this where i can't use my whole arm yeah

or like i can't pick up my right foot because he's holding on to my right sleeve yeah it was kind of

on a basic animalistic sense kind of terrifying it's i mean you don't want to

part of this is like ego but you realize that there's a food chain and you're not at the top of it

that's part of the humbling process i think of martial arts it's like i think everybody

like a lot of people think they're much higher in the food chain than they are they really are

and then when you realize this is why it's a really healthy process for people they're not

even competing in the olympics to practice martial arts because you realize okay that like

putting yourself more accurately in the food chain is really good

way to sort of place yourself in the rest of the world it humbles you to the reality the harshness

of the world yeah it's kind of like when people look at like survival in the wilderness it's

like oh it's not that hard no you'd probably be dying a couple days same thing with like

judo and martial arts like yeah it's really not that hard but you don't know what to do yet and

so when you find out that first time that you don't know what to do it's devastating to a lot of

people but those that like stick through it and like start to learn it's a very powerful

level like feeling that now like you can take care of yourself and i think i want to talk to you a

few times before you talked about that there's like love like the top three the top five in the

world i don't know where you put them but there there are another like level level here yeah

and the fact that you're i mean it's it's so exciting to me probably because i just felt

all the levels here and i i've seen you and others at that height destroy those i've i i've seen the

exponential levels to this game it's incredible that you're didn't quit didn't doubt yourself

and just persevered through three olympics to get to that highest always fighting at that like

very highest of levels but just like you know from the top 10 to the top five like really breaking

in through that i don't know um what would you say it took to get to that highest of levels

like if you when you look back at all the weight cuts to just the insane amount of injuries

believe it or not i didn't really think i was there until

2013 i thought i was recognized as one of the best because i was able to fight for

oppensburg which was the professional boondest league team for germany which is one of the top

clubs in all of europe um when they asked me to i felt like europe had like accepted me as like

oh i'm a top level judo player but i don't necessarily think that when i signed on to

compete for them that the division or the world of judo saw me as a top level judo player right

there's there's a a mental shift that happens along that point and for me my mental shift really

came into play in december of 2015 before real that was like when i lost in japan that's when i

realized like the world respects my abilities and they compete against them they don't compete

against me as a person they compete against the idea or the the persona that i've been able to

establish over the years of competing in the division wow so you're the they probably have a

nickname for you you're the system of ideas and thought that they study but they're studying

me as a conceptual whole not me as the human is your style relatively unique in the 81 kilogram

division it was relatively unique for kayla i and jimmy up until 2016 now since 2016 you can see a

lot of what we used to do throughout most of europe and even asia like you're starting to see some

of those techniques that you didn't see before starting to get implemented because when i was

when i was gearing up for 2015 i had such a slew of injuries that entire calendar year that

i never should have made it to rio i should have called it quits at the end of 2015 because

i suffered that major concussion in february i stepped on a mat in may for the first time i lost

five straight tournaments i left the national team went to japan won pan am games got a bacterial

infection at the world almost had my leg cut off tore my si joint later on that year and then

took fifth in japan and when you look at like the calendar year as a whole like the world

should have treated me like i was washed up like this guy hasn't been training he hasn't been doing

anything but i took fifth in japan now how does a guy that hasn't trained all year take fifth at

one of the hardest tournaments in the world on two weeks of training because they were fighting

the guy i used to be not the guy i was at the tournament which means they were competing under

the idea of like what is he really capable of not what have i brought to the table today

and that just gave you the confidence and that told me that like well if i can take fifth and

i'm this bad at judo right now wait until i'm healthy and i'm back in shape then they're not

going to know what hit him one of the essential components of being the number one in the world

or up in that place is that confidence the self belief and the rest of the world believing it you

can have all the confidence in the world but if the rest of the room doesn't buy it it's nothing

that's funny it's like there's certain people right with tyson uh my tyson they all understand

he could not train and they're still scared yeah right like he doesn't have to work out

that hard anymore there's several judo you know this way better but from a spectator perspective

like ilia ciliatus is like that he's one of them it's like he he's portrayed over the years

like everyone's so scared of that guy it's interesting yep i people were scared of you too

people just gave a certain level of respect to my skill set and whether i had a bad way cut or

didn't have a bad way cut or not trained for the last three months which never happened i'm just

saying they were going to fight the persona and it's an important distinction when you're looking

at the top five because everybody coming up they're training against the persona not who you are

even i did that at a younger age that's why i would always go to people's hometowns because like

i don't i don't care about the persona i want to know what you do day in the day out when i couldn't

beat a russian i told jimmy send me to russia i need to i need to understand and see it with my own

eyes what they do outperform so that i can believe that i can beat them can i ask you on this a small

tangent so uh dagestan has produced some incredible wrestlers yeah i don't know what the story with

judo is where the source of source of greatness in russia is for judo but what do you make of

dagestan why why what is it in the culture of there or russia broadly that produces greatness

specifically in the combat sports i don't know yeah specifically in the combat sports sorry

but i don't know if you want to draw a distinction between wrestling and judo i'm almost curious

do you understand the differences there in the culture still a combat sport to them they're

still in that same like realm of they're taking young kids and that that's what they do so kabib

speaks very highly of judo yep like it's funny kabib vladimir putin people don't get it but like

judo is like one of the premier sports in the world but we just don't understand it it's not

just popularity so definitely popularity but also like this respect and there's a certain thing which

is why i really value judo internationally you don't get this in the united states but internationally

there's an understanding like later in life when you're a scientist meeting a businessman

when you both have done judo there's this like nod of respect yeah it's so interesting uh there's

very few sports like that you know basketball doesn't have any i don't know almost any sport like that

and it's fascinating wrestling has that in the us it is the us only the rest of the world doesn't

do that there's a few like you could see that in like iran or something like that with the respect

wrestling in that kind of way yeah it's um but judo on like a global scale is probably that only one

man due to it's like physicality and the hardships that you have to go through to reach that upper

level so why do you think dagistan why do you think kabib is as good as he is is there is this just

the raw genetics of the human or is there something about the system the system it's all has to do

with the system so they um they grow up around fighting in all forms yep um they're also i mean

their technique is exceptionally good because they they grow up in it they grow up and they don't

they don't understand anything else so you don't have to it's almost like you with the way cutting

it's not like a big dramatic thing for them to fight it's like this is just part of life

yes and when you're i don't want to say bread into it but when you've done it for you know

i want to say like 90 of your life by the time like kabib probably has right from the time

he could crawl he's probably been grappling in some fashion thereof right um you know when you

as grapplers like you can look at a wrestler and having never seen this person before and go

you wrestled yeah why is that it's because he's probably wrestled since he was like six so

the way he carries himself the way his body is built the way he grew into it was framed around

wrestling right so the people in that culture are framed around fighting and grappling you're

right it's like first of all philosophically psychologically but also just like the way you

move your body yes that means like when you're young the people you admire move their body in a

certain kind of way and then genetically it it just as they keep doing that they're just going

to get better and better every generation yeah it's just going to keep improving because they

just keep building into that system of turning them out and part of it there's like cultural stuff

where i mean it's such an interesting approach to wrestling i really want to travel to degestan

and just talk to them because i happen to be able to speak russian because because there's um less

value for this kind of materialistic success that i think sometimes can get in the way of

greatness it seems like it makes coaching more difficult it makes like following orders as an

athlete more difficult i don't know struggle with that in us age you know yeah because you want more

money but then more money if not applied correctly can corrupt the system somehow can split people

up it just it's same thing with the prestige around certain medals over others because athletes start

chasing fame instead of development yeah yeah that's i mean uh the satio brothers are famous for

this like ignoring ignoring fame ignoring all of this like focus on the art itself not even not so

it's not even the medals exactly you're saying just the purity of like when you're in it yeah and let

everybody else figure out their stupid medals and money and all that because it comes it comes right

exactly it's a result yeah exactly like it's not that you don't appreciate it but you know that it

comes if you focus on the art there's a distinction when you're talking about your athletic career

or really any endeavor right the problem with goal setting is nobody teaches the athletes

or the people how to transition from the goal to reality right so when you look at my career as a

whole like when i was getting ready for 2008 i actually forgot to train for it i was so happy

at such a young age that i became an olympian that that in and of itself was a goal that i thought

had to be admired had to be celebrated that you know the games are right around the corner

that i didn't really come down off that high you're the local optima of just winning the trials

yeah that was a big thing it's a huge thing but then you're just focusing on the accomplishment

not the correct but at some point right when i when i went into london i actually went into

london going with i'm gonna prove i'm the best in the world because i believe i'm the best in the

world and i believe it from like the bottom of my soul that i'm winning this and then you're

almost like trying to tell the universe like i'm accomplishing this thing because it's a goal

but when i went into rio i just accepted the fact that i was winning it's not a goal like

this is happening you visualize it but i felt it you felt it right like this is no longer a goal

anymore like i anticipated like this is happening i i can see this coming down the path because

i'm anticipating that the games is happening and i'm gonna win it's not a goal it's an

anticipation and there's a distinct distinction there between the two okay so for people who are

just watching the video of this there should be an overlay of uh young travis this is uh

you still had to make 81 this is still a tough cut here no this one was relatively easy this

is going all the way back to 2008 so this is the summer before the games this probably happened in

june i would say so this is the uh olympic trials so in the united states you have to

i mean similar to like wrestling you have to win the trials to qualify for that particular

division to represent the united states so this is you said june before an august olympics yep

so here i just wanted to show this match because uh what was the there's another one i think you

do a pin you do some nice groundwork in the other one but in this one

fighting a teammate fighting a teammate former teammate oh there's an old school double leg i

forgot about that and it's weird to see so you so there um the travis's opponent and he's the

travis is setting up here that say nagi uh posting his left arm and getting it done that's a big

that's a big throw you don't have too many of those big throws on uh on video because like you

often on video you're going against the best people in the world it's tough to get like that

much air and a lot of times the the ones that we do see and you know the part that a lot of people

don't experience is a lot of those times where i threw people with that throw it was in training

camps so by the time i got to the competition with these guys they were playing a hundred percent

defense to never let me do that yeah so you do this um here are you kind of pulling him down

no he's i'm trying to get him to come up to come up but are you pulling him down to get to fake

him up i'm not doing anything with my left hand uh so here the the opponent's so what i'm doing

right now is his head is like in my chest i'm pressing him to get his head to lift with my chest

so i'm pressing his hand down so i can use my chest to like pinch my scaps and roll his head up

so that he wants to pick it up and and then he i mean doesn't even know what's coming here

oh no he might not oh no he knew he was a former teammate he knew exactly what i was trying to do

and that was a really big step with your right foot it covers uh about four feet so you step

up and your left um catches up in like perfect position yeah you back it up a little bit

keep going keep going right there that this is like an important distinction between mine and

everybody else's is because i split his hip um i actually once i'm able to split i no longer need

his center gravity below mine right and when you say split you mean you put your foot in between

might do that split that four foot split yes and then when i get my feet back together

it doesn't matter that i'm under his center gravity or not yeah that's why my chest is right

around his like sternum height for me yes so there i mean how does he get for people just

listening to this travel steps is like does a big huge step gets like my hip is probably right around

his nipple because he's he's brought back so much yeah that's right so like so you're how is the

physics of this work you're violating the principle of your center of mass being under oh i guess

somehow it is i don't know but he has nowhere to go he's screwed yes that's the kicker is

is the way mine mine works is in order for him to play an effective defense he needs to have his

feet firmly planted on the ground with friction yeah otherwise he can't press into me to stop it

so when i get him to sprawl back when i split his legs he effectively loses that contact

with the floor even though his feet are on the floor they're not in a position where he can

drive from them yeah therefore when i flip he flips so there's a so there's a natural

like flailing here so he's not falling forward you're falling forward yeah he's just attached to

you so like you can keep him up there and then like legs would be just flailing yep one of my

one of my golden rules when i'm training and i get really tired one of the like mantras i would

always tell myself is i'm gonna put my back on your chest and then i'm gonna put my back on the

floor yeah because then you'll be underneath me it's a good principle the very simple and it

regardless of like all the chaos and how quickly things are happening it's something i can just

dumb everything down to and focus on regardless of the gripping situation the footwork all of that

get my back to your chest and then put my back on the floor so this step of getting your back

to their chest like for for people who are sort of more like for example for people like me

who are just like amateur judo people like there's all kinds of ways to prevent this

turn from happening the gripping and just everything how difficult is it at the highest

level to get into this position i mean you make it look effortless often but like to get to a

position where you're from facing them to your back to them is that like strategy is that timing

is that timing it's timing it's like anything like if i wanted to punch you in the face like how

hard is it to really do that if you know you can just play defense and block it yeah the trick is

to get them to play defense to something that never happened and then you go through like another

way and then you just go through what would technically be your first plan if you planned

on them playing defense so i set the stage from the very beginning for this to work so then this

you're uh you're celebrating here it's a huge sort of once a big accomplishment big relief

to qualify for the olympics and then you go into the olympics and this is where i first saw judo

and i kind of thought of them as the same as judo and jujitsu and i was really impressed by

your performance in that olympics the footage nowhere to be found these days but at that time

i think you could still you could watch it live on nbc olympics or somewhere like that and i remember

watching several of your matches one of them was the match against olympisch off the german

and i remember being it'd be nice if you can talk to that match because i don't remember it all i

remember is being frustrated yep by him not letting you play judo yeah so obviously you faced him

again four years later and there's a lot of frustration there as well but i remember being

extra frustrated in 2008 what was that match like so he might have been number one in the

world at the time or up there he was up there for sure especially going into 2008 he was really

high up there yeah and did he win gold at that olympics yes yeah because he's silvered in london

it was the same olympic final both in 2008 and london yeah okay so you're facing him there

were you intimidated what was the strategy can you talk to that match because it kind of sets

the stage for the rematch in 2012 yeah he was somebody that i had trained with in the past

and for some reason when it comes to him and i when we trained together

it's more of a physical altercation than a judo training session you know like it's just like

the coaches have had to break us up a few times like are you guys get almost like angry too a

little bit it always goes you know farther than it should for we're friends like we say hello to

each other but for some reason when we train together there's something about like him and

me that just oil and water i don't know what it is it could it be also the gripping because he's a

great gripping strategist yeah does he frustrate you with certain kinds of grips and then you get

pissed off and then you frustrate him and then he gets pissed off and then before you know it somebody

kicks somebody or punched somebody in the mouth or done something yeah so one of the only evidence

is we have online if you're fighting him is you your foot in his groin area is the only thing

we have from that olympics from 2008 from 2008 yeah and to answer everybody's question yes it was

deliberate now you can say this yeah but yeah i remember there being a lot of frustration

you go you're actually going for a lot of stuff like sacrifice those i mean maybe you're not going

for the highest scoring e ponds but you're just trying to shake things up if i remember correctly

yeah because when he i was so young then that and he was you know in his prime really at that time

right he was must have been 24 25 26 you know world medalist european champion at the time

and when he would grab me i would i had that sense of feeling stuck like i was strong enough

if i used all my strength to not let him do anything but then you can't be offensive when

you're using all your strength to hold on to the situation so i was getting really aggravated because

i couldn't i couldn't generate any offense with every time i felt like i gained an advantage

in the gripping scenario he would take some obscure grip somewhere that was like well now

i've got to go address this thing give up what i gained and i have to go back and

it if i were to think about watching the match now it probably looked like a lot of flailing

because we're just trying to generate enough to not get a penalty but also not enough to

where he could counter it did you think you were you could beat him like when you're walking into

the match until i gripped him for the first time like i because i had trained with him before

he felt stronger and more in shape than i've ever felt him that day at that olympics at that olympics

which begs a whole another question but

what was the question i remember when i when he grabbed me for that first time i went this is

different and i there was a sense of panic at the time because i was like holy crap where did

this come from this is not the guy that i've trained with that i expected because it was a

definite like level change in like his ability strength speed and stamina like looking back

at that can you explain that is it just you being more less confident because as the olympics it was

is there some kind of routine that he followed to like really level up in intensity for this

particular event i've been told that he only gets to like his prime for like really big events

yeah like he doesn't train like year around like i would train but when it comes to like the games

he doesn't do social media he doesn't work he lives breathes eats his training for the games

which could you know institute that level what about you as there uh like dan gable famously

said like the one loss he had in college he was doing a lot of media and stuff back back then there

was no social media i that was a huge mistake for him do you do social media do you do like at that

at this point well at that time was like a well i don't know what's two thousand i didn't even have

a facebook page uh my space nothing at this point i got my first facebook page from the usoc in 2012

yeah when i went through the media thing the lady was like you have to have it i go i don't want it

i don't like people i want to deal with the people what am i supposed to do you know like the social

part of the social media no okay um i have to bring this up because uh and then you went on to face

java camilo uh you lost that match but he went on to win bronze that's also an interesting one but

we can skip ahead i just remember being really impressed both by your ground work um that was

a match i should have won yeah i should have won that i was if you don't know judo you would

visually watch that and be like i'm winning but he was technically winning on the scoreboard so

it is what it is but the point that he got that solidified his win

yes it was a point back in those days so i can't say anything but like

my shoulder nicked the ground so it's like i don't know yeah a lot of the stories of your

olympic career is like from a fan perspective it seems like you should have won or you very

close to could have won yes and there was a lot of frustration in you and your game being like

shut down in certain ways and but like the thing that immediately grabbed me in 2008

was how much something about the way you approached judo how much you wanted to win

because i was young then i was when i was at this at this time in my career i was out to like

win like there was no like i'm gonna grab you i'm gonna throw you and if not you're gonna go

through a battle yeah you're gonna make sure you earned it it so happened that you competing in 2008

i was uh i became a fan of yours uh at that moment and since then i uh i kind of knew about judo

my university had a judo club and i kind of knew about jiu jitsu from mixed martial arts

and obviously i wrestled for many years before and i love wrestling but there's something about

you competing that made me well there's no other way to say but like changed the direction of my

life because it forced me to say you know what i'm gonna start judo and jiu jitsu and first of all

for that i'm really grateful but it's fascinating to think because this kid who's 22 years old i'm

sure i'm not the only one that you've influenced like you've changed the direction of my life

and there could be a huge number of others like that i mean that's the power of you as an individual

at the on the olympic stage you ever think about the pressure of that did you did you think as a

22 year old there's a bunch of people like i know i'm not the only one who changed i just happened to

have like a microphone recently you know what i mean like is that it's fascinating to think about

right like you perhaps you didn't think about this it's just a just a judo match but you're like you

influenced hundreds of thousands of people from that millions is that interesting it's it's not

something that really hit me until um 2012 when i lost because that's when like i would say like

the world felt bad for me at that point and that's when you knew that like people were

watching and people were inspired by the loss because of how much went into that match yeah

because you know the 99 percent of us who watched it thought i won except for the

one percent of the people who were considered judges at that day in the event so but i mean

that's the the winner lose that that was a really inspiring match and that's when it that's when it

dinged that like because i don't i don't watch something and really get inspired by like the

person and the act it's like a it's an accumulative thing but for a lot of people like when they watch

how much goes into it and then when i broke down on the match like the amount of suffering

that happens when you lose a match like that and then you know really coming back in

and winning in Rio there's a trend of people who were inspired that knew about London and

then when they found out i won in Rio that's when like people like in droves felt like they could

overcome their own personal obstacles to still achieve something because they've witnessed

somebody who's fallen and gotten back up yeah but it's not something that you think about like on

the day it's when you look back and you go all cause and effect i wonder if you can comment on that

i'm trying to realize and live up to the fact that there's like young people that come up to me

and i'm starting to realize like certain words i say will have a long lasting impact on them

yep because you say it is like you don't even doesn't just yeah the whim some of them might

come back 30 years later and a word i said was the reason they quit a thing and started the new

thing that led them to become their true self like to find success all that kind of stuff like

on the flip side though some people based on the actions that we do today even with this cast

will alter the course of their lives forever i had a guy one time was it after London

and it must have been after London he actually found me on instagram wrote me what seemed to be

like a dissertation on instagram about how much he i disrespected him 14 years earlier because

i didn't step on a podium to take a picture after winning a tournament where he bronzed

yeah and i'm thinking to myself like at the time like having dinner with my family because

i had to leave the next morning was more important to me as a person not thinking about

who you potentially will become and the actions of whatever you do today if you do become quote

unquote famous or somebody in a spotlight that that could come back to bite you to me i don't

know about you that that's that's super motivating like not to be a lesser version of myself ever

yeah just be on top of your game whatever that game is be on top of your game when you interact

with people and when you're just in your own private life i'm trying to make sure that i'm the

exactly same person privately as i am publicly and like making sure i'm on point i see like

just hanging out with uh joe rogan a lot i see how he's first of all the exact same person

and second he he like walks around and there's like a huge number of fans and you'll just take

pictures and like it's very cool and it's very cognizant of like certain words he says especially

young people like they're going to take that and that's going to be a memory for them for a couple

of years yeah that might be influential for the rest of their life so i don't know that's a cool

responsibility uh not to fuck it up but but anyway i bring all that up to just say thank you

so even if you like were frustrated that you didn't win a medal at least at least uh you influence one

silly russian kid to get into the martial arts and what happens when you get into martial arts

alters the direction you like yeah mine for for for the better okay so let's go to uh london 2012

olympics uh one of the most dramatic judo battles of all time rematch yeah so you've

reached the semifinals once again to face the german holy bishof do you mind if we step through

that match a little bit voted by all means i've only ever watched the entire thing one time just

because fucking so uh for context for the listener um travis first of all you don't like losing

i think that's fair to say you know the the hard part with this match is because i went into this

olympics thinking i'm gonna fucking win the olympics i'm the best in the world

i'd never in my right mind thought oh i'm gonna win a medal like that never that never crossed

my mind so it's like i would have rather him just fucking beat me yeah because then i lost

so here the referees as as many people thought robbed you of a victory but it was also a really

close battle again with many of the elements of frustration as 2008 in terms of strategically

and gripping wise and it was just a fascinating battle that went to overtime uh so can you set

the context so what what did the bracket look like who were the players here um who did you

beat leading up to this match like so as you walk on to the mat what happened the day before the

the hours before as you're standing there but how bad is this is when two people are standing like

this and yeah that fucking guy man um but this this bracket um was really interesting if you

look at like the backstory of 81 kilos like leading up to the olympics right because at this point in

time you know i was inside the top 10 at all times you know eight seven five four you know

sixes i fell out of there sometimes due to injuries but i always climbed back in um there was another

guy um from azerbaijan that was the olympic champion at 73 kilos in 2008 and the entire division

got rocked by match one because his first match was with antoine valis fortier of canada

and everybody who saw the draw come out was like the azerbaijan he's gonna win it he's the former

olympic champion he's pretty much one of most of the major events including at 90 kilos because he

just had smooth judo and you know match one rolls around match two rolls around antoine's

in the chute and he's looking around and he's like the azerbaijan he's not here but where is he

no joke he runs into the venue a match before throws his gi on and runs onto the olympic platform

loses the canadian in like a three minute golden score battle

so do you think he warmed up didn't he ran he literally ran into the venue through his

gi on and ran out did no judo and there you see antoine losing in the quarters

so how good was the antoine at this point in time this is i believe his first international

medal was the olympic games so i don't think he'd ever meddled in paris um he went into this bracket

unranked beating the ranked guy first round because he i don't know if he missed the boss

i don't know if he was off his cycle and planned on losing because he didn't want to test positive

i don't know there's a lot of like questionable things out there that could have potentially

caused him to you know run on to the olympic platform for match one but you know it it

catapulted antoine into like a belief that like i beat the seeded guy i'm i'm ready and that was

like a turning point in the canadian's career just as a whole right that's that everybody has a

defining moment like mine was when i beat bischoff uh in dusseldorf at the grand prix for germany

after 2008 right i beat the olympic champion in on his home soil to go win the entire tournament

so we all have like those moments it's just when it happens at the games it throws the bracket like

into a tailspin because typically you'd know like who's gonna beat who where it's gonna happen

and when you look at my quarterfinal against the brazilian what most people don't know is i was i was

so thankful i had that match most people would never in a million years be like i want to fight

the world number one at the olympic games that's what i want to do i want to be the eighth seed

fighting the world number one because i'm gonna win i was pissed off at him i was so angry because

we we were at the pan ams i think the year before and there was a team tournament i wanted to fight

him i had lost the quarters to a cuban i think and like the first gripping exchange he threw me

with a drop sale out of nowhere i was pissed so i wanted my hands on the brazilian and the team

match well the brazilian team's warming up so i walked up to him no joke i walked up to him and i

go you're fighting and he goes not today and i went are you fucking kidding me i warmed up i taped

up through the only fucking guy i want to fight and you're gonna fucking sit in the stands and read

a goddamn book i was so angry i carried that anger because i never fought him until this day

i was fucking pissed i was ready to beat him that's right i remember i forgot he was the world

number one yeah how did um because i remember like being really excited at that match how did you

beat him i threw him with two hands on the same side collar like drop sale i crossgripped i yanked

him behind me and i threw him epon was arie and then the match ended 30 seconds later yeah i was

pumped i was i thought like i think okay if i'm remembering correctly i thought okay this guy

might actually win gold that's what that's what made for me as a spectator remembering now the next

match that much more like painful and then the fans of judo that really followed the sport

the stats when you look at the games in my draws i had the worst possible draws you ever could have

imagined at both london and rio i fought the world number one to get to the final or into the semis

or past the semis and everybody i fought in the draw either beat me the last time we fought

or i had never fought before so i always held a loss going on to the mat at the olympic games

how'd you feel about that by the way like what were your feelings about facing the brazilian

first i was so excited this well that was match three in london i fought the slovenian guy first

round who beat me um where did he beat me was it the worlds might have been the worlds and then

churches villi i fought in the second round who threw me for wasari in japan and then leandro

who i don't think i ever fought who was world number one that avoided fighting me at the team

tournament but i mean every single olympics you've fought it you really stepped up the only tournament

i've ever prepped for mentally and physically and just the whole thing yeah we never trained

through this tournament like we did for the others or i would go into it injured all right well

let's talk about you're standing there next to that uh to the german he looks he looked always

smaller than you but you said like strong yeah um so what are you feeling now jimmy pager behind you

i was fucking ready to take his head off did you have an idea of what you're gonna do did you try

do you're thinking of winning by epon were you thinking like going for big throws take

or take him in deep waters i'll grip him or what were you thinking we were about to have a battle

and i wasn't gonna throw him until he broke mentally okay that was there was no like oh this

is going to be a clean throw that was never that was never the thought process so so here

you know there's going to be a lot of gripping so we're seeing a shit ton of gripping and right

here he throws it bang close fisted you got a lot of adrenaline you seem calm i'm pissed you're pissed

like you don't look as you just look like i'm looking at the ref like because he keeps telling me

to get up i'm like i have blood running down my face here see blood see and he's like oh yeah

go fix it and that's on your eyebrow somewhere yeah he split it just underneath it so you split

your eyebrow and so in judo they don't they're allergic to blood probably for a good reason but

they so now you have to try to figure out how to uh tape that up yeah which already sets up one of

the most badass looks in judo history first 15 seconds yeah busted my eye open was that getting

in the way of your eyesight at all or no no damn he looks good at gripping how difficult

does it to get a grip on that guy very like i'm struggling just to get my hand in the collar

and he wasn't even blocking it is he being cagey yeah remember like is he interested in offense

nope he's a very cagey you know methodical player like he he never opens himself up yeah

yeah there you go you grab the leg as part of a combination yep and people have told me that he's

actually very good at throwing people he just doesn't so but he just doesn't show it at these

nope because he he doesn't care how he wins he cares that he wins yeah which makes him very

difficult to beat because he knows when you strategize to do that where you look at the

rule set and you develop a plan to to get through the matches then you've really got to figure out

a way to get that person off that game plan you know whether you get ahead by a penalty or something

right there like he wouldn't give me the sleeve so i grabbed all of his fingers

oh nice in which i's open like like this way or i grabbed them the other way and i started

lifting them uh yeah nice oh like first playing mercy like this yeah uh this is great because he

wouldn't give me the sleeve and i needed an attack and i'm like okay i can't hold on to this forever

because that judge is gonna see it so let me just do a quick throw here while i'm using the fingers

and the he's holding on yeah he and then i just sit out yeah and then yeah he goes to get up and i

go to get on top and right here nice that elbow you get him oh you got him yeah it looks like i elbow

him did you do it kind of no i didn't even i at the time i never knew this happened yeah until after

i watched this like three or four years later didn't even know i didn't even feel it look at that it's

so he's legitimately angry here yeah he's angry and of course you can't you can't move why would you

move look at this this moment right there's this gold if you're not watching this on video you're

missing out you do you never get this in judo no i don't know if that's ever happened that little

face off especially on a stage like this the reference and then he brings us in to like talk

to us and he's like hey we're good right like you guys aren't about to do what i think you're about to

do you put up here like hey shake hands again because the first time we did it that wasn't

good enough well you got to do it again the heartbreaking part about this and why the ijf

switched it to an unlimited golden score because we fought five minutes through the entire normal

part of the match and then we did the entire overtime period of three minutes now one penalty

was given no gripping infractions false attacks like no stalling that's great there was nobody

was really backing up yeah i mean it was you know so what was jimmy telling you here

how was he was he talking to you at all he's not allowed to talk during medical

things and my nose is now broken but he's also the nose is broken from what um i caught an elbow

from him glad his face is clean that's fun and right here like i was pissed i was so angry at

the medic because he's fumbling around and i'm like my whole plan is to break the germin mentally

yeah you got to hurry up with the tape man like he's supposed to be tired like he's not supposed

to be resting is jimmy yelling here he can't no not here not here but during the match yeah

and you can see i just take it from him and i'm like give it to me i'm gonna do it myself get out of

here how scared is the medic he's like this guy's gonna he can't even tear the tape he's like how

nervous he is we made fun of him for this yeah so much yeah throughout the years still due to this

day all right here we go oh you look great getting here can't really see don't care it was there's

some outcome in your mind that you could possibly beat him on the ground with a submission or a

pin you knew you're gonna have to throw him i knew i was gonna have to if i was gonna throw him or

on bar him or pin him whatever the case may be it was gonna be his mental like i'm just tired of

this yeah right he's too cagey of a player he's too experienced you know he has to mentally make

that choice to give that inch and then you just have to be ready to take it so i was just waiting

for it and so now this is four minutes in one minute left yeah okay oh um is that in your game

plan two potentials like zoom engage like the sacrifice throws them because the whole point of

that that technique and the sacrifice throws wasn't because i thought i was gonna throw him but

it disrupts the pattern enough to like get him to make a potential mistake yeah like see he should

have gotten a shido there hands in the face but again that's just part of judo yeah he poked me

in the eyeball this is a rough match it does he act at all or no like was he acting frustrated

or anything like that was all like he's like acting for the ref you know what i mean like oh that

all that kind of stuff you're just going in yeah hard not stop yeah like angry aggressive

of feeling cardio here at all like i don't i didn't get tired during this and then we're just

always pressing for time runs out now we're into golden score 12 minutes and 38 seconds later

yeah you think about every judo exchange right every time we rip up every time we attack sometimes

it can take longer to get back to the line than the entire exchange yeah so the more aggression

the more exchanges you have the longer the time stretches then here the six seconds left and

golden score your tape is uh is now yellow and red yeah with sweat and blood literally and time is

out now what are you thinking here do you think you won the match i i thought i won the match a

minute ago i remember thinking to myself like if this goes to the flags i won no doubt in my mind

because i felt like the whole time like i was going to him yeah right he was never coming at me

yeah that's the way it felt and like that's the way it felt body language wise just the intensity

how fast you're moving towards him you're constantly going for throws now if you want to rewind that we

can talk about the whole because it's a part of this clip so wait wait a minute uh they all went

blue they all did so in in judo there's three referees two on the side one in the center and

they all vote and now let's pause it right there now the way this is supposed to work they raise

their flags they do like a one two count and then on three they all raise it together yeah now as a

little pretext to this entire match up until this point not one match at the olympic games has ever

been a split decision meaning out of three people not one of them voted against the other group members

so they were all unified blue or all unified white yeah right which is statistically difficult

to imagine yes it's almost like the they had a referee meeting and said it's better for the

olympics to never have a split yeah okay so the question becomes if you click that frame by frame

right so right now we have all the refs with their flags out and then click that so the middle

middle guy is he is all the way up all the way up the other side judges haven't moved we now have

one side ref all the way up then we have a third side ref all the way up yeah so there there's a

there's a time point when the middle guy has the flag all the way up if not 80 90 of the way there

yeah then the other one does and then the third one goes uh so now the question becomes who really

like did the outside refs really have an opinion or were they told to wait for the center one to

start and then lift whatever flag the center ref picked yeah this is very unfortunate because

it's very honestly it's very possible that they had this meeting um this this is the problem with

the the olympics they sometimes it's also the problem in the Soviet Union with communism you think

the the committee knows what's good for the people and so on so they decide

universally as opposed to letting the magic of the olympics be be what it is but nevertheless

the in this case the center ref decided blue like what do you think do you think it's just a

shitty call or like he has the right to pick but yeah the problem is is the other two I don't think

did yeah so and that's so when you do this frame by frame again right like I can see from my own

perspective two of the refs and I see them both blue right so when you fast forward that a little

bit to get to like all the flags I see the two go blue and I go I look over and I look at the other

guy and I'm like really yeah all three I fought for eight minutes and I can't even get a vote I

didn't even get a penalty I can't even get a vote and that's when I broke I like oh I couldn't believe

it and I'm not gonna lie he looked shocked and here you're on your knees you're crying literally

crying yeah I think it's the end amazing match oh such a war I mean both people can't believe what

happened I know that's the end like honestly I wish we had the rules that we do today as far as the

unlimited golden score because I would have loved to have seen what would have happened what was Jimmy

saying here to you I mean I guess there's nothing to say yeah he he was kind of apologizing for the

way the the scores went because he knows how badly you want it he saw the match and he felt I deserved

to win it yeah based on like you know what happened but he probably with all his experience knows

that this is what the Olympics are about the refs sometimes yep I mean that's the magic of it man

well and at the same time we're at we're in the Olympic semi final in a sport that's dominated

by certain continents and when you look at the three refs on the mat they're all european

yeah you're telling me there couldn't have been one panam one african one oceana you know different

like why'd they all have to be european but to be fair it's back to your sauna story

correct dealt with this stuff before and and you've won over this stuff before and that's

why like I was broken and you thought you won here those and when I hindered on that for

a year and a half like I couldn't even stand I was done but I'm pretty sure there's a slow

motion replay on this when I watch they all excited that fucking guy yeah he's all happy

it's relieved yeah hey hi guys I did it yeah so here's like teeth my teeth are right slow

motion replay of the flag being raised the hard being broken Travis just bending over right here

watch watch his reaction like he like you could see his mouth like open and awe like yeah really

yeah and he's looking at two refs just like I am he didn't celebrate until he looked at the third

one and said oh all three so you think he knew he I think in his head like I don't think he really

believed he was winning he did enough to win yeah yeah because when his mouth draw like

oh yeah hey all three like that's not really the reaction you would give

yeah I mean that was uh that's one of the greatest matches I've ever seen I mean

obviously it's painful for you but that pain first of all sets the stage for 2016 but even

without that I think it was just a beautiful story at the Olympics you've still did incredible

job at the Olympics you stood toe to toe I think in in hindsight having lost that match did more

for me and more for the sport yeah as a whole me losing that match yeah I mean stories aren't about

winning stories they're about the fighting so and that may have one hell of a story but

but it it also has to do with you know treachery is probably not the right word to use it's probably

the wrong word entirely to use but because of the conflict in the match and because of how

the refs handled the match there at the end it created controversy that was spoken about for

months on world media right I remember articles being written about the Olympics and you know

the reffing and how it was corrupt and that match was one of them there was another one

in fencing where like something happened with the timer where one of the fencers I guess what

happens in fencing the timer resets up a second if it's down so the fencer got one second played

out I think like 27 or 28 times and then won on like 30 so like there was like clock fixing for

fencing there was this match that I think just got publicity good or bad publicity is publicity for

judo and then you came back to I mean this is the hard thing after this heartbreak to step up

and continue fighting right I really really struggled like unbelievably struggled from 2012

to like 2014 I almost quit numerous times I was so angry I mean at one point I got so mad at the

IJF feeling like they were fucking me every step of the way I threw a water bottle at a referee

after a match I cussed out a referee one time on a mat I got suspended from the sport because

I was just so angry at that point in time and IJF is the international judo federation and

there are there the people that supply the referees basically like the they're kind of run the sport

they're on the low scale so you sent a few emails 2014 15 basically quitting one of them said I'm

mentally and physically broken another said with a subject line I'm done yep the weight cuts didn't

break you no so if this broke you you were really going through a hard time I was like you know what

we're just gonna like dumb it down a little bit and get some wins under our belt I'm gonna go to a

world cup which is like three stages down or four stages down from like the olympic games like this

should be like a cakewalk like making the final of a world cup should be a walk in the park

I show up I barely beat a 16 year old kid barely then I got smoked in the second round I got

thrown three times I was like I'm fucking done they changed all the fucking rules they fucked me

out of the olympics like what am I supposed to do and it was at that moment when I wrote the email

where I remember sitting at a bar I don't drink by the way but I was sitting at a bar

at the hotel sending this email and I got a response back from Jimmy and he goes well just

just stay for the training camp go to Germany and then whatever happens don't worry about it

we'll talk when you get home I was like fuck that fuck these people fuck the rules I don't

fucking care anymore I'm just gonna do judo the way I want to do judo if I fucking get sheeted out

fuck them that was my response can you become an olympic champion can you become an olympic

medalist with that kind of thinking you think or no was that that's counterproductive yeah okay

just just checking because maybe that's also liberating the expectation was no longer that

Travis is going to win this tournament the expectation was Travis is going to come home

before I can pissed off we're going to have to figure out how to manage a pissed off person

that's trying to quit that shouldn't be quitting and the people still believe that you can be a

medalist again yeah like who believed that Jimmy believed it the team managers believed it some

of my teammates still believed it my training partners still did but they're not the ones that

are cutting the weight flying around feeling like you know all of your judo is now known void right

because at this point they took away leg grabs entirely you couldn't break a grip with two hands

right the meta of judo has changed again right so I got fucked out of it they took away how I did

judo again and now it's just got more difficult so when I'm sitting in the hotel and I'm sending

this email I remember being at the training camp like I was like I don't even fucking care what the

rules are I'm just gonna fucking throw people I don't even care from cheating doesn't matter to

me I'll just play stupid yeah right so I just started going back and doing judo without the leg

grabs but with all the same gripping that I was doing beforehand and then when I got to Germany

I was like I don't fucking care I was like if I got a cheat to win then I got a fucking cheat to

win if I get sheeted out like then I get sheeted out and I won Germany uh which event to Germany

the German Grand Prix which was a week after losing the World Cup because I was trying to do judo

around the new ruleset I wasn't just trying to do judo right because when you get to the highest

level your game tends to morph around you know what can you can or cannot get away with I was

more focused on trying to figure out what I can and can't get away with and I stopped actively

doing judo once I said fuck whatever the rule changes are I'm just gonna keep doing judo the

way I know how to do judo and if I get a penalty then so be it and so that that win that started

the road back the road back yeah because now it's like I don't care if you penalize me or not because

I'm gonna throw that guy anyways I'm gonna beat him anyways and if I get a sheeto for doing something

wrong then I'll just stop doing that one thing and just keep doing all the other things that they

told me I probably shouldn't be doing but they're not calling me on it so I'm just gonna keep doing

it well you you found yourself to 2016 Olympics was that ever a doubt by the way after this

after 2014 in Germany I had a lot of doubt after the concussion in 2015 I remember when I first

came back after four months of nothingness that like even trying to like train the room would

start to like tilt the world on me and then when I finally got over that and I could start doing

things again I stepped on the mat for the Pan Ams and I was like drowning is not the right word

but like everything was being done in such a slow motion like I had sandbags everywhere

that like I just couldn't keep up like mental fog yeah like I remember fighting the Brazilian

for in the semifinal of Pan Ams I was halfway through this match I'm just like eyes roll up

I'm like I'm just gonna fucking wing it I just fucking winged it and I got countered and thrown

free pwn and I was like I don't even know what to do and I couldn't even think clearly and that's

when I was like I may not come back yeah you don't have control over how to come back from this it's

like it's just your mind and yeah it's not not operating there it's not like I can like oh my

right hand's not working because it's fractured let me figure out a way I can not use that like

when your mind's not working like it's the one thing you need yeah like you gotta have it

I can work through anything else I needed that though so how did you come back from that time

that's when I wrote another email and I was like I'm fucking off team USA I'm not fucking I'm all

done with USA Judo I'm done with the tour I was like I quit but I'm gonna go do my own thing

and they were like whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa can't quit now the Olympics is in like a year like

let's talk about this again because it's the second time I've tried to quit in like two years

right so then we sit down in Jimmy's office and he's like whoa whoa whoa you can't quit

you're gonna kick yourself if you don't go to Rio I'm telling you right now don't do that to yourself

let's figure out a way of like doing this and I was like because when we trained before we did it

as a unit right we all went to the same tournaments we all went to the same training camps and I'm

like you guys are treating me like I'm the same player I used to be I go I don't I'm not operating

at the level you think I'm operating at I go I can't do that and he goes well what do you want to do

and I gotta tell you what Jimmy you know I'm being serious because my answer

is something you'd never would have expected I go why don't you just send me to Japan for

three weeks and he was like really I hated Japan I refuse to go there up until this point

but I was like I have to get to a point where I can get so tired and get through it

that like my judo will come back and my body will learn again and when you say Japan you

meet the Kodokan like what what's Tokai that is that the highest level of judo it's one of the

top colleges in the world yeah and that's so you can go with the best people in the world you can

go to war with them top level like strong players yeah there's a lot of very strong players there's

a lot of middle class players and there's a lot of volume of rounds so you value all of it the

middle class too like that because when you're tired like you can't just train in areas where

you're battling for every inch at some point you have to be successful

right so you still under duress and under strain and through exhaustion you still have to have the

ability to score yeah well if you're training with the best people in the world all the time

you're not always going to be able to score so you still need those B level players in order to

really develop again what is it like if you can comment briefly on training in Japan what's it

like to go into a different place you probably don't speak the language that well

speak the language that well like is there an isolation aspect to it is it like purely about

judo now i really want it to be isolated no training partners no coaches i wanted to get back to my

roots and just learn how to fight again i don't want to figure out how to beat the german i don't

want to figure out how i can develop a new entry into my sale against you know whoever it may be

it's not you just want to fight hard just want to fight let me get back to fighting let me get back

to like the root of who i am what were those sessions like already we're talking about five

minute rounds like what how many six six minute rounds 30 minute breaks 14 rounds a session

so what's the 30 minute break 30 30 second break 30 second break

like what 14 14 rounds 14 rounds every day every day five five days a week and then 11 or 12 rounds

on saturday plus weightlifting plus running plus weightlifting plus running so that those are hard

rounds yeah what's it feel like to go through that so you have a bunch of uh just a sea of blackbells

japan um i'm sure they're hunting you a little bit depending on who you are i was hunted a little

bit like i didn't really struggle because of who i am them as college athletes they want to show to

their coaches and their you know higher players like oh look i can throw the world number whoever

but if you're just a guy who shows up like them beating you doesn't provide any value or raise

their status no but you're your status raising yes so i was actually like in a situation where

nobody was watching me and i was free to just battle at my own will okay which is what it was

about for me and you just push yourself because i knew how to do that i know how to push myself

are you well when you're doing these 14 rounds is every single one a standalone thing for you

yep so you're not trying to pace yourself no it's just each one is to as much exhaustion as i can get

but then there must be ones where like it's a ground nine where you're got nothing left

better figure out how to score it's all you got to do you got to survive and you got to score

what's your memories of that those three weeks what's like what stands out to you it seems like

um because that's the place where you found the silver medal yep because it's the place most

people don't want to be everybody's comfortable i would rather i would rather find out who i am

and what i'm made of and find those those endpoints and if i can't find them then that means everybody

else has given up before me where there's a few people that just kind of you return to battle

over and over in those times and then it was just yep no social media no none of that is just like

to lock yourself in your room you come back you've thought about it and you come back with a game

plan for that day against some players here there and i would i would develop a hit list like i would

be like oh that that mother fucker grabbed me at like 13 and i watched him sit fucking four rounds

and then come try to kick the shit out of me i'm gonna fucking grab that guy early i'm gonna beat

the shit out of him and you just develop that list there's probably some epic battles in that room

right yeah uh what's it look like like how crowded is it very and so you're just like yeah to see a

people see a people and you're trying to are you doing groundwork at all just throws just throws

no transitions no nothing but if i get pissed off and like you keep dropping or like not let me do

what i want to do i'll rip a choke right across your face just to let you know that like yeah and

if i wanted to you have a really nice style of just like respectfully bullying the shit out of people

because some people call me a bully and i have to remind them that like a bully enjoys like

beating up the weak right i want to beat the person that fights back right exactly it's not

fun for me if you don't fight back right some of the greatest people i've seen like do this they

basically uh you have this in the iowa wrestling rooms they'll push each other into the wall like

they get there's like anger but it's ultimately underneath it all it's like a deep respect i

was training with colton brown one time and i went to san jose state because i was in california

for something and he kept like he kept circling to the edge they had like a cupboard that had like

when you opened it it had like all the tape and like medical supplies i was like we'll fucking

put you right through that and he kind of lived he kind of giggled and then he went by that edge and i

fucking ran him right through it yeah see to me that's an ultimate sign of respect that both you

and colton will remember well and we're still friends we still talk it's just i told him i was

gonna do it he knew i meant it too yeah he did anyways that just tested me uh yeah listen that's

and that same attitude was that's that was in japan just day after day after day after day 14

rounds that's that's rough and you didn't sit out rounds and i did it all with a broken hand

um how how how did you do with a broken hand you show up every day you show up okay i actually

went left or right my right okay so that's okay so you can then focus on gripping with your left

it's always the way there's always a way but that means you can't i guess you don't have to grip

you're right sometimes because i would palm it with my thumb just like hanging out like this just

like this so you can do something so you can do like ogoshi because you have a um because i what

were your main throws it was sanagi koshi garuma okay sumi uchimata uchimata but you have this big

like ogoshi type of thing like a yeah but not from like around the waist it's from over the

shoulder over the shoulder and i can do it with just the one hand oh which one hand the right one

i don't need this leave hand you don't need a sleeve hand but what you couldn't do with the

broken hand i could because i can just put my hand in the gi so it can't come off and then you just

because what happened was three days before i was leaving for japan a guy my hand was rested

like this on a mat and the guy boom took my whole thumb off and tore all the tendons in the palm

yeah so when i went to the doctor he was like you know we have to put a cast on and i go i'm

leaving in three days you're not putting a cast on it and i go this is what i want you to do

just like this i said i want you to build a cast that holds it that velcros around so that when

i'm not training i can wear it yeah but then when i'm training i'll take it off and then i'll put

the tape on it and then whatever happens happens whatever happens happens all right so that's epic

and that led you to the 2016 olympics in rio well that led me to winning pan am gold when i got back

from japan and then almost getting my leg cut off in 2015 that was like you know maybe a month or two

later i was hospitalized for seven days the leg being cut off for what i had three different types

of bacterial infections in my right leg a whole leg swelled and it was in my blood skin and in my

bone in my right leg so i got stuck at mgh in a hospital for seven days until they figured out

what the bacteria source was where was the source of the infection as in in my knee in the knee yeah

okay so obviously there's a danger of like that's life threatening yep so when i went into the

emergency room when i got back from the world's the lady was like hey you need to call here

gonna call because you may lose your leg tonight yeah and then they put me in the hospital what

do you think in this whole time are you still thinking about olympics they put me into the

room like four hours later the doctor came in um i was at mgh in boston and he was like

you have a serious infection in your leg i go he's like we have to keep you hospitalized until

we can figure out what it is and i was like buddy i have the olympic games in less than a year i go

i don't give a fuck what it is i go just fucking take it out and let me get on with my day he goes

we can't do that like i don't understand i go you told me this infected just cut away that part of

the tissue drain it do whatever you gotta do and then send me on my way he's like it doesn't work

like that he said until we figure out what it is we can't figure out how to stop it from growing

or how far it spread so it took him seven days to figure out what it was then once they figured

out what it was i went in for surgery to remove it then i spent i think it was eight weeks in

home care with a pick line and then i came back from that on the first week and a half of judo

i tore my si joint trying to throw a guy and then i came back from that about a month later and then

fifth at the conal cup and then the game six months later how quickly do doctors understand

who they're dealing with like is that is that difficult for you to explain who Travis Stevens

is when you go to visit a doctor i don't think they understand you know their role is to get me to

do my job to the best of their ability as a doctor right meaning it's going to be less than what they

want and they and they struggle conceptually with like but the textbook tells me this and i go but

i'm not a textbook right like when you go to physical therapy the first thing they do is

they pull out that binder that says day one we do this exercise i go but i have my own goals

your job is to help me meet my goal let's let's work a plan to do that or i gotta go find somebody

else did uh the doctors in general people outside of your close in the group step up if they didn't

i found somebody else and typically i could find a person who knew the right person i always wonder

with people like because i'm constantly surrounded by one of the biggest problems in my life has been

there's a lot of people in my life who love me very much but who want me to the equivalent of that

situation um you know definitely don't go to the olympics and definitely like like it seems like

the world is full of people that want you to be average and happy yes which is great which is fine

i mean i perhaps that's the way it should be like you know my parents people close to these that's

what love how love manifests itself often in people but then like i think the ultimate

manifestation of love is understanding who this person is here's a madman who's driven towards a

particular thing and the best thing for you to do is not to say like rest is to say work harder

like fuck your infection yeah you should be training yeah have you ever met anybody as crazy as you

that can help you most of us who get to this point get there because we're all a little unstable

yeah even my wife glida right like when she was getting ready for 2016 um or when she was getting

ready for 2020 because she moved to boston um to be a coach she had a a neck problem right

and at that at some point in time it's like what's really important day to day life

or judo and believe it or not the doctor in canada was like i am never under any circumstances

doing an MRI of your neck again that's what she told her she goes if you have me do an MRI

you're not doing judo again so just know if you hurt your neck and it requires an MRI

you're done with judo forever yeah so decide if you want to do judo or not that was a conversation

we actually had to have that's a cool thing for a doctor to say i mean it depends how bad

ass they sound when they say it so that's a tough conversation judo one what's what's this with your

wife what's that relationship like so you're both a little crazy a little bit in the in a good sense

or from my perspective in a good sense yeah it's just we've we understand that when it

it when you set a goal to do something you're not signing on for the good yeah you're signing

on for the bad and i don't think a lot of people understand that that's like a valentine's day

card from travis stevens it's you have to like accept everything negative that could possibly

happen and until you do you're never gonna make it because you'll always sell yourself short

yeah you'll never go far enough and if you sign up for the whole thing then the negative is just

like oh great like i expected that if you're experiencing the negative they're also experiencing

the negative and if you overcome it maybe they'll get knocked out from yep maybe they won't deal

with it maybe they won't train through it right when i had my five herniated disc and i was in

a neck brace i was still in the gym at 7 am yeah doing whatever it is i could do because my job

is to be at the gym david goggans i don't know if you know the guy he's he's gone he's damaged

a lot of parts of his body like you trying to achieve things so you know unlike you his achievements

are like your achievements come with the metal he's just running in the darkness in the middle

of nowhere by himself it's like i mean it's the same probably as with you if you're able to be

introspective about it is he's just battling his own inner demons and working through those

and is breaking up breaking his body doing so are you cognizant of the tradeoff of the fact that

you know you're damaging your body to get to these levels of achievements of this level of

excellence of this level of greatness i mean i guess that depends on what you consider damage

really because i don't really see that i have damaged my body if anything i think i've strengthened

it my body can go through more than yours can yeah who's is weaker yeah right it's just like

it's just like the tie boxers right yeah in order to strengthen their shins they got to break it a

few times yeah it's just nature of the beast you just uh had to break a bunch of stuff to find

where the weak points are and then made them stronger yeah or strengthen the areas around

it to strengthen it by you know a sheer relation to it but the problem is like you may not be able

to do judo like for until you're 70 why not i may not be able to do judo to the level i used to

yeah don't get me wrong but i can still do judo you can still do judo and i think a lot of people

struggle with they want to keep doing it like they used to be able to do it i don't try to do judo

like i used to like you're seeing here i i'm not that guy anymore i accept that i don't even try

to be that guy anymore i'm a completely different player today than i am when i was winning olympic

medals and so i guess when you're looking at like my journey and the tradeoff is i never sacrificed

anything the people around me sacrificed for me and i never had a downturn after the olympics

because i never identified as an olympian you know a lot of olympians suffer from depression

because they identify as it now they don't have who they are where was your personal

moment of greatness like or do you not experience life that way where you were truly proud to be

yourself like every day i wake up you're you wake up and you're not proud of who you are then

and you've really got to seek out some like help so that's first of all okay i i'll do that because

i definitely am not proud of who i am i just wonder if you didn't identify with the olympics

was there times maybe in the training room maybe in japan like where you're you just kind of felt

like i get more of an emotional i guess trigger right where like i feel proud of what i've done

when i've set to a task and i've done it so almost any task and the more challenging the task

the more reward you've fought a lot of amazing battles in 2016 olympics so you got you beat the

let's see the world number four and the quarter finals it's like a replay every single olympics

you're all the pictures i got terrible draws saying terrible draws and then you're facing this is

where i was like watching this i'm like yeah he's screwed you faced the world number one the georgian

and by by the way for people who don't know he beat me five times to my beating him once and

the one time i beat him was in london and all other times he beat me he beat me by poem and not by

like a little throw like he threw me on my head at one point we were in georgia i'm fighting him

in the final i go to my teammate and i go guess what make sure you watch this fight somebody's

getting thrown free poem this match ain't at the same magical distance and about a minute in i tried

to take his head off with a big koshi grimo which is like a head and arm he caught me and then

threw me on my head and ended the match so first of all we're watching the video of you again standing

next to the to the guy leading up to your semi final match so here if you uh if you win this you're

guaranteed a medal yep but the chances of you winning from my fan perspective i was like god

damn it uh you and the rest of the world except for me except for you what what are you saying

you're talking to yourself here what are you saying my name is travis stevens i'm an olympic

champion i will not be denied the george is probably like what the hell is this guy saying

what is he talking to himself so he was probably ultra confident yeah had to be the difference is

is i understood the last five times he beat me i was purposely trying to throw him not beat him

hmm i wanted to find out if i could turns out i can't but i don't need to throw him to beat him

i need to know how to not lose but you're still going for stuff here but all of my attacks drag

him to the ground yeah drag they're never standing on my feet which is a complete which is a

distinction that we talked about at the very beginning right you have throws where you're

standing and throws where you're dropping every time i try to throw him standing he throws me

free pony picks me up and he throws me on my head literally so what i did is i just needed to get

to that last one minute mark which is what he does mentally in his own judo where he changes into a

panic and just tries to like do things that are uncharacteristic so you knew he's going to start

panicking here as you get as the match draws to close and you both have a pashido and actually we

did we pass the point where i went for broke and i broke my rule which one i went for a crazy foot

sweep um like iphone switch thing i can't remember what it's called because it's not used that often

and he actually landed on top of me and some people wanted it to be called iphone but he had

actually let go of the gi and was looking for the mat so he didn't have any control so they

didn't award him a point yeah and here we go now we're getting down into the next year he's getting

frustrated great yeah i love it perfect second penalty no big deal we just got to get to the

one minute mark that's all we got to do so there's no panic here for you you know i'm right where i

need to be and look at now if you go back into this match uh i would love for somebody to go back

and see how many times he did a drop right iphone senagi probably never yeah so why is he doing it

now because he panics and he changes his judo at that one minute mark so look out look how much i

kept that grip yeah you kept you have that grip this whole time yeah have your left hand walking

him down walking him down that he he you keep the grip as he's throwing yeah which were you

thinking choke as he drops or no it's just kind of natural instinct yeah because we drilled it

i spent two years drilling this transition and then very so for people that don't do judo jiu jitsu

it's like really nice you keep everything is nicely controlled to where you're keeping that

gi under his chin like it's really tight control like it's very like your cognitive i guess is

drilling but your cognizant of the position of your wrist the whole time and you can tell based

on like just years of doing it whether it's under or it's not right you can just feel the difference

and it's probably even if you wanted to stop that it's very difficult because your whole time it's

like once it's under it's almost impossible to stop for people who practice jiu jitsu don't practice

judo one of the very annoying things about judo is in order to do gi chokes they have to be under

the chin yes even though the kind of intense jokes you do work just fine over the chin but

and the the kicker here and why we practice this choke was because when you go back and watch all

of the other matches he always does this tripod when i try to do arm locks yeah which is typically

what i would do yeah and when i do that he ends up sliding out and i end up falling off right

so you step up here with the choke he does a tripod where he sticks his button to the air and you

do what's the name of this choke bow and arrow no but okay let me when you do from like from that

position is there a way this entry into the bow and arrow i guess because you're doing we we refer

to a judo as a british triangle british when they when they're in that turtle position and you do

that rolling motion cool and here when you go into that you can fall off of them like you said if

you're going for an arm bar but here literally because you have it under the chin really well

there's just a nice control and i've already planned on it being on his chin that's why i've hooked

the arm yeah right it's already starting to go straight probably this choke in the early stages

like a few frames before feels like it uh like you're safe it's fine like like the head will

slip out or something like that yeah and that's why my left knee is up by his shoulder to keep that

pressure down so that he can't posture it up when did you know you have this oh i was right here

i i actually panicked um right about here

was maybe his head to come out my hand i tore the muscle in my palm because i was pulling so hard

that i'm like and he may not tap yeah like is he is my hand just gonna give out beforehand

and there he is we're right on this edge right yeah so like if we roll a little bit outside

and i still don't have it like that ref could stop it yeah and then i felt him tapping and

oh the that he is um he's hard broken i felt surprised there it is the relief olympic olympic final

and he knew he knew he lost an olympic medal right there because he already knew that the

japanese guy was going to be his bronze that he never beats see the but also he probably in his

head was confident that he'll be in the final correct and so like this he almost is surprised

yeah it's not supposed to happen this way and it's the second time it's happened

and that's how you became an olympic medalist man that must be a great feeling