back to indexSean Kelly: Existentialism, Nihilism, and the Search for Meaning | Lex Fridman Podcast #227
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The following is a conversation with Sean Kelly, a philosopher at Harvard specializing
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in existentialism and the philosophy of mind.
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This is the Lex Friedman podcast, to support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.
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And now, here's my conversation with Sean Kelly.
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Your interests are in postcontinent European philosophy, especially phenomenology and existentialism.
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So let me ask, what to you is existentialism?
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So it's a hard question.
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I'm teaching a course on existentialism right now.
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Existentialism in literature and film, which is fun.
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I mean, the traditional thing to say about what existentialism is, is that it's a movement
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in mid 20th century, mostly French, some German philosophy, and some of the major figures
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associated with it are people like Jean Paul Sartre and Camus, Simone de Beauvoir, maybe
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Martin Heidegger, but that's a weird thing to say about it because most of those people
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denied that they were existentialists.
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And in fact, I think of it as a movement that has a much longer history.
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So when I try to describe what the core idea of existentialism is, it's an idea that you
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find expressed in different ways in a bunch of these people.
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One of the ways that it's expressed is that Sartre will say that existentialism is the
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view that there is no God, at least his form of existentialism, he calls it atheistic existentialism.
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And since there's no God, there must be some other being around who does something like
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what God does, otherwise there wouldn't be any possibility for significance in a life.
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And that being is us and the feature of us according to Sartre and the other existentialists
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that puts us in the position to be able to play that role is that we're the beings for
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whom as Sartre says it, existence precedes essence.
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That's the catchphrase for existentialism and then you have to try to figure out what
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What is existence?
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And what does precedes mean?
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What is existence?
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And what is precedes?
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And in fact, precedes is Sartre's way of talking about it and other people will talk about
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But here's the way Sartre thinks about it.
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This is not, I think, the most interesting way to think about it, but it gets you started.
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Sartre says there's nothing true about what it is to be you until you start existing and
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still use until you start living.
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And for Sartre, the core feature of what it is to be existing the way we do is to be making
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decisions, to be making choices in your life, to be sort of taking a stand on what it is
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to be you by deciding to do this or that.
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And the key feature of how to do that right for Sartre is to do it in the full recognition
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of the fact that when you make that choice, nobody is responsible for it other than you.
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So you don't make the choice because God tells you to.
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You don't make the choice because some utilitarian calculus about what it's right to do tells
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You don't make the choice because some other philosophical theory tells you to do it.
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There's literally nothing on the basis of which you make the choice other than the fact
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that in that moment, you are the one making it.
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You are a conscious thinking being that made a decision.
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So all of the questions about physics and free will are out the window.
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Yeah, that's right.
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If you were a determinist about the mind, if you were a physicalist about the mind,
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if you thought there was nothing to your choices other than the activity of the brain that's
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governed by physical laws, then there's some sense in which it would seem at any rate like
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you are not the ground of that choice.
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The ground of that choice was the physical universe and the laws that govern it, and
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then you'd have no responsibility.
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And so Sartre's view is that the thing that's special about us used to be special about
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God is that we're responsible for becoming the being that makes the choices that we do.
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And Sartre thinks that that's simultaneously empowering, I mean, it practically puts us
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in the place of God, and also terrifying because what responsibility?
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How can you possibly take on that responsibility?
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And he thinks it's worse than that.
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He thinks that it's always happening, everything that you do is the result of some choice that
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you've made, the posture that you sit in, the way you hold someone's gaze when you're
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having a conversation with them or not, the choice to make a note when someone says something
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or not make a note.
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Everything that you do presents you as a being who makes decisions and you're responsible
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So it's constantly happening.
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And furthermore, there's no fact about you independent of the choices and actions you've
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So you don't get to say, Sartre's example, I really am a great writer, just haven't written
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my great book yet.
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If you haven't written your great book, you're not a great writer.
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And so it's terrifying, it puts a huge burden on us, and that's why Sartre says on his view
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of existentialism, human beings are the beings that are condemned to be free.
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Our freedom consists in our ability and our responsibility to make these choices and to
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become someone through making them.
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And we can't get away from that.
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But to him, it's terrifying not liberating in the positive meaning of the word liberating.
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Well, so he thinks it should be liberating, but he thinks that it takes a very courageous
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individual to be liberated by it.
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Nietzsche, I think, thought something similar.
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I think Sartre is really coming out of a Nietzschean sort of tradition.
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But what's liberating about it, if it is, is also terrifying because it means in a certain
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way, you're the ground of your own being.
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You become what you do through existing.
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So that's one form of existentialism, that's a stark atheistic version of it.
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There's lots of other versions, but it's somehow organized around the idea that it's through
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living your life that you become who you are.
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It's not facts that are sort of true about you independent of your living your life.
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But then there's no God in that view.
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Does any of the decisions matter?
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So how does existentialism differ from nihilism?
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So it's two different ways that you're asking it.
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Let me leave nihilism to the side for just a second and think about mattering or is there
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any way that you can criticize someone for living the way they do if you're in existentialism?
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Including yourself.
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Including yourself.
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Sartre addresses that and he says, yes, he says, there is a criticism that you can make
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of yourself or of others and it's the criticism of living in such a way as to fail to take
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responsibility for your choices.
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He gives these two sort of amazing examples.
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I don't know if it reads as well for us as it did in sort of mid 20th century Paris,
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but it's about a waiter.
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He gives this in his big book, Being and Nothingness.
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And he says, so waiters played, still do I think in a certain way in Paris, a big role
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in Parisian society.
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To be a waiter involved having a certain kind of identity, being a certain way, taking control
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of and charge of the experience of the people that you're waiting on, but also really being
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the authority, knowing that this is the way it's supposed to go.
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And so Sartre imagines a waiter who does everything that a waiter is supposed to do, the perfect
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form of the waiter, except that you can somehow see in the way he's doing it that he's doing
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it because he believes that's the way a waiter should act.
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So there's some sense in which he's passing off the responsibility for his actions onto
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some idea of what those actions should be.
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He's not taking responsibility for it.
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He's sort of playing a role and the contours of the role are predetermined by someone other
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So he starts as acting in bad faith and that's criticizable because it's acting in such a
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way as to fail to take responsibility for the kind of being Sartre thinks you are.
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So you're not taking responsibility.
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So that's one example.
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And I think any teenager, if you've ever met a teenager, you've known someone who does
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Teenagers try on roles.
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They think, if I dressed like this, I would be cool.
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So I'll dress like this, or if I spoke like this, or acted like this.
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And it's natural for a teenager who's trying to figure out what their identity is to go
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through a phase like that.
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But if you continue to do that, then you're really passing it.
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So that's one example.
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And the other example he gives is an example not of passing off responsibility by pretending
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that someone else is the ground of your choice, but passing off responsibility by pretending
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that you might be able to get away with not making a choice at all.
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So he says, everything you do is a result of your choices.
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And so he gives this other example.
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Where you are on the first date, first date.
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And the date, the evening reaches moments when it might be appropriate for one person
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to hold the hand of the other.
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That's the moment in the date where you are.
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And so you make a choice.
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You decide, I think it's that time, and you hold the hand.
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And what should happen is that the other person also makes a choice on Sartre's view.
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Either they reject the hand, not that time, and I'm taking responsibility for that, or
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they grasp the hand back.
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But there's a thing that sometimes happens, which is that the other person leaves the
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hand there cold, dead, and clammy, neither rejecting it nor embracing it.
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And Sartre says, that's also bad faith, that's also acting as if we're a kind of being that
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we're not, because it pretends that it's possible not to make a choice.
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And we're the beings who are always making choices.
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That was a choice.
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And you're pretending as if it's the kind of thing that you don't have to take responsibility
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So both of the examples you've given, there's some sense in which the social interactions
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between humans is a kind of moving away from the full responsibility that you as a human
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in the view of existentialism should take on.
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So isn't the basic conversation, a delegation of responsibility, just holding a hand there,
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you're putting some of the responsibility into the court of the other person.
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And for the waiter, if you exist in a society, you are generally trying on a role.
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I mean, all of us are trying on a role.
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Me wearing clothes is me trying on a role that I was told to try, as opposed to walking
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around naked all the time.
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There's standards of how you operate, and that's a decision that's not my own.
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It's me seeing what everyone else is doing and copying them.
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So Sartre thinks that in the ideal, you should try to resist that.
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Other existentialists think that that's actually a clue to how you should live well.
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So Sartre says somewhere else, hell is other people.
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Why is hell other people for Sartre?
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Well, because other people are making choices also.
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And when other people make choices, they put some pressure on me to think that the choice
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they made is one that I should copy or one that I should promote.
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But if I do it because they did it, then I'm in bad faith for Sartre.
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So it is as if Sartre's view is like, we would be better if we were all alone.
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I mean, this is really simplifying Sartre's position, and this is really just mostly Sartre
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in a certain period of his formation.
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But anyhow, we can imagine that view.
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And I think there's something to the idea that Sartre is attracted to it, at least in
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Can you dig into hell as other people?
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Is there some, obviously, it's kind of almost like a literary, like you push the point strongly
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to really explore that point.
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But is there some sense in that other people ruin the experience of what it means to be
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I think for Sartre, the phenomenon is this, like, it's not just that you wear clothes
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because people wear clothes in our society, like you have a particular style, you wear
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a particular kind of clothes.
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And for Sartre, like to have that style authentically, in good faith, rather than in bad faith, it
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has to come from you, you have to make the choice.
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But other people are making choices also, and like, you're looking at their choices
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and you're thinking, that guy looks good, maybe I could try that one on.
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And if you try it on because you were influenced by the fact that you thought that guy was
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doing it well, then there's some important sense in which, although that's a resource
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for a choice for you, it's also acting in bad faith.
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And God wouldn't do that, right?
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God wouldn't be influenced by other's decisions, and if that's the model, then I think that's
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the sense in which he thinks hell is other people.
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What do you think parenting is then?
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It's like, what, because God doesn't have a parent, so aren't we significantly influenced,
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first of all, in the first few years of life, and even the teenager is resisting, like,
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learning through resistance.
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I mean, I think what you're pushing on is the intuition that the ideal that Sartre's
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aiming at is a kind of inhuman ideal.
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I mean, there's many ways in which we're not like the traditional view of what God was.
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One is that we're not self generating, we have parents, we were raised into traditions
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and social norms, and we're raised into an understanding of what's appropriate and inappropriate
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And I think that's a deep intuition.
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I think that's exactly right.
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Martin Heidegger, who's the philosopher that Sartre thinks he's sort of taking this from,
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but I think Sartre's a kind of brilliant French misinterpretation of Heidegger's German phenomenological
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view, Heidegger says, a crucial aspect of what it is to be us is our thrownness.
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We're thrown into a situation, we're thrown into history, we're thrown into our parental
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lineage, and we don't choose it.
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That's stuff that we don't choose, we couldn't choose.
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If we were God and we existed outside of time, maybe, but we're not.
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We're finite in the sense that we have a beginning that we never chose.
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We have an end that we're often trying to resist or put off or something, and in between
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there's a whole bunch of stuff that organizes us without our ever having made the choice
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and without the kind of being that could make the choice to allow it to organize us.
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We have a complicated relationship to that stuff, and I think we should talk about that
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at a certain point.
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But the first move is to say, Sartre's just got a sort of descriptive problem.
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He's missed this basic fact that there has to be an awful lot about us that's settled
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without our having made the choice to settle it that way.
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Right, the thrownness of life.
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That's a fundamental part of life, you can't just escape it.
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You can't escape it altogether.
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You can't escape it altogether.
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But nevertheless, you are riding a wave and you make a decision in the riding of the wave.
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You can't control the wave, but you should be, as you ride it, you should be making certain
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kinds of decisions and take responsibility for it.
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So why does this matter at all, the chain of decisions you make?
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Well, because they constitute you.
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They make you the person that you are.
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So what's the opposite view?
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What's this view against?
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This view is against most of philosophy from Plato forward.
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Plato says in the Republic, it's a kind of myth, but he says, people will understand
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their condition well if we tell them this myth.
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He says, look, when you're born, there's just a fact about you.
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Your soul is either gold, silver, or bronze.
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Those are the three kinds of people there are, and you're born that way.
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And if your soul is gold, then we should identify that and make you a philosopher king.
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And if your soul is silver, well, you're not gonna be a philosopher king.
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You're not capable of it, but you could be a good warrior and we should make you that.
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And if your soul is bronze, then you should be a farmer, laborer, something like that.
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And that's a fact about you that identifies you forever and for always, independent of
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anything you do about it.
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And so that's the alternative view.
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And you could have modern versions of it.
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You could say the thing that identifies you is your IQ or your genetic makeup or the percentage
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of fast switch muscle fibers you've got or whatever, it could be something totally independent
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of any choice that you've made, independent of the kind of thing about which you could
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make a choice and it categorizes you.
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It makes you the person that you are.
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That's the thing that Sartre and the existentialists are against.
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So this idea that something about you is forever limiting the space of possible decisions you
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Sartre says, no, the space is unlimited.
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Sartre is the philosopher of radical freedom.
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Yeah, radical freedom.
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And then you could have other existentialists who say, look, we are free, but we gotta understand
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the way in which our freedom is limited by certain aspects of the kind of being that
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If we were radically free, we really would be like God in the traditional medieval sense.
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And sort of these folks start with the idea that whatever we are, that's a kind of limit
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point that we're not gonna reach.
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So what are the ways in which we're constrained that that being the way the medieval's understood
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him wasn't constrained?
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So can you maybe comment on what is nihilism and is it at all a useful other sort of group
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of ideas that you resist against in defining existentialism?
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So nihilism, the philosopher who made the term popular, although it was used before
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him as Nietzsche, Nietzsche's writing in the end of the 19th century, in various places
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where he published things, but largely in his unpublished works, he identifies the condition
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of the modern world as nihilistic, and that's a descriptive claim.
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He's looking around him, trying to figure out what it's like to be us now, and he says
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it's a lot different from what it was like to be human in 1300 or in the 5th century
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In 1300, like what people believed, the way they lived their lives was in the understanding
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that to be human was to be created in the image and likeness of God.
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That's the way they understood themselves.
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And also to be created sinful because of Adam and Eve's transgression in the Garden of Eden,
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and to have the project of trying to understand how, as a sinful being, you could nevertheless
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live a virtuous life.
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How could you do that?
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And it had to do with, for them, getting in the right relation to God.
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Nietzsche says that doesn't make sense to us anymore in the end of the 19th century.
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God is dead, says Nietzsche famously.
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And what does that mean?
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Well, it means something like the role that God used to play in our understanding of ourselves
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as a culture isn't a role that God can play anymore.
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And so Nietzsche says the role that God used to play was the role of grounding our existence.
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He was what it is in virtue of which we are who we are.
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And Nietzsche says the idea that there is a being that makes us what we are doesn't
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make sense anymore.
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It's like Sartre's atheism, Sartre is taking that from Nietzsche.
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And so the question is, what does ground our existence?
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And the answer is Nihil, nothing.
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And so nihilism is the idea that there's nothing outside of us that grounds our existence.
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And then Nietzsche asked the question, well, what are we supposed to do about that?
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And I think Nietzsche has a different story than Sartre about that.
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Nietzsche doesn't emphasize this notion of radical freedom.
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Nietzsche emphasizes something else.
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He says, we're artists of life.
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And artists are interesting because the natural way of thinking about artists is that they're
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responding to something.
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They find themselves in a situation and they say, this is what's going to make sense of
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This is what I have to write.
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This is the way I have to dance.
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This is the way I've got to play the music.
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And Nietzsche says, we should live like that.
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There are constraints, but understanding what they are is a complicated aspect of living
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And there's a great story, I think, from music that maybe helps to understand this.
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I think Nietzsche, of course, jazz didn't exist when Nietzsche was writing, but I think
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Nietzsche really is thinking of something like jazz improvisation.
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He talks about improvisation, there's classical improvisation.
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Nietzsche was, by the way, a musician.
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He was a composer and a pianist, not a great one, really, to be fair, but he loved music.
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And Herbie Hancock, who's a pianist, a jazz pianist, who played with Miles Davis for quite
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a while in the 60s, tells this kind of incredible story that I think exemplifies Nietzsche's
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view about the way in which we bear some responsibility for being creative and that gives us a certain
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kind of freedom, but we don't have the radical freedom that Sartre thinks.
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So what's the story?
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Herbie Hancock says, I think they were in Stuttgart, he says, playing a show and things
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were great, he says.
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He's a young pianist and Miles Davis is the master.
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And he says, I'm back in the solo and I'm playing these chords.
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And he says, I played this chord and it was the wrong chord.
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He's like, that's what you got to say, it didn't work right there.
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And I thought, holy mackerel, I screwed up, I screwed up.
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We were tight, everything was working and I blew it for Miles, who's doing his solo.
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And he said, Miles paused for a moment and then all of a sudden he went on in a way that
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made my chord right.
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And I think that idea that you could be an artist who responds to what's thrown at you
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in such a way as to make it right, by what measure?
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Everyone could hear it, is all you can say, right?
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Everyone knew, wow, that really works.
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And I think that's not like, there are constraints, not anything would have worked there.
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He couldn't have just played anything.
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Most of what anyone would have played would have sounded terrible.
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But the constraints aren't preexisting, they're what's happening now in the moment for these
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listeners and these performers.
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And I think that's what Nietzsche thinks the right response to nihilism is, we're involved,
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but we're not radically free to make any choice and just stand behind it the way Sartre thinks.
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Our choices have to be responsive to our situation and they have to make the situation work.
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They have to make it right.
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And there's something about music too, so you basically have to make music of all the
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And there is something about music, why is music so compelling?
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And when you listen to it, something about certain kinds of music, it connects with you.
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It doesn't make any sense.
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But in that same way, for Nietzsche, you should be a creative force that creates a musical
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And I think what's interesting is the question, what does it mean to be a creative force there?
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There's a traditional notion of creation that we associate with God.
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God creates ex nihilo, out of nothing.
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And you might think that nihilism thinks that we should do that, create ex nihilo, because
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it's about how there's nothing at our ground.
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But I think the right way to read Nietzsche is to recognize that we don't create out of
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Miles Davis wasn't nothing, that situation preexisted him, it was given to him.
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Maybe by accident, maybe it was a mistake, whatever, but he was responding to that situation
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in a way that made it right.
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He wasn't just creating out of nothing, he was creating out of what was already there.
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So that makes that first date with the climbing hand even more complicated because you're
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given a climbing hand, you're going to have to make art and music out of that.
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That's the responsibility for both of them.
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Wow, that's a lot of responsibility for a first date because you have to create.
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The emphasis isn't just on making decisions, it's on creating.
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But also on listening, right?
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I mean, Miles Davis was listening.
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He knew it was wrong.
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And the question was, what do I play that makes it right?
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So let me ask about Nietzsche, is God dead?
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What did he mean by that statement?
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In your sense, the truth behind the question and the possible set of answers that our world
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So, I mean, I think that there's something super perceptive about Nietzsche's diagnosis
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of the condition at the end of the 19th century.
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So not so far from the condition that I think we're currently in.
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And I think there's an interesting question what we're supposed to do in response.
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But what is the condition that we're currently in?
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When Nietzsche says God is dead, I think, like I was saying before, he means something
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like the role that God used to play in grounding our existence is not a role that works for
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us anymore as a culture.
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And when people talk about a view like that nowadays, they use a different terminology,
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but I think it's roughly what Nietzsche was aiming at.
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They say we live in a secular age.
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Our age is a secular age.
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And so what do people mean when they say that?
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I think, first of all, it's a descriptive claim.
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It could be wrong.
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The question is, does this really describe the way we experience ourselves as a culture
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or as a culture in the West or wherever it is that we are?
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So what does it mean to say that we live in a secular age, an age in which God is dead?
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Well, the first thing is it doesn't mean there are no religious believers because there are
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There are people who go to church or synagogue or mosque every week or more, and there are
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people who really find that to be an important aspect of the way they live their lives.
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But it does mean that for those people, the role that their religious belief plays in
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their life isn't the same as it used to be in previous ages.
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So what's that role?
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We'll go back to the high middle ages.
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That was clearly not a secular age.
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That was a religious age.
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And so there we are in 1300, Dante is writing The Divine Comedy or something.
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And what did it mean then to live in a sacred age?
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Well, it meant not just that the default was that you were a Christian in the West, but
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that your Christianity, your religious belief, your religious affiliation justified certain
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assumptions about people who didn't share that religious belief.
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So you're a Christian in the West in 1300, and you meet someone who's a Muslim, and the
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fact that they don't share your religious belief justifies the conclusion that they're
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And that was the ground of the Crusades.
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That was the religious wars of the high middle ages.
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To say that we live in a secular age is to say that, not that there aren't a lot of people
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who have religious belief, there are, but it's to say that their religious belief doesn't
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justify that conclusion.
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If you're a religious believer and you meet me and suppose I'm not a religious believer,
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concerning that about me doesn't justify your concluding that I'm less than human.
link |
And that's the kind of liberalism of the modern age.
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Most of the time we think that's a good thing.
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We let a thousand flowers bloom.
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There are lots of ways to live a good life.
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And there's some way in which that is a nice progressive kind of liberal thought.
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But it's also true that it's an undermining thought because it means if you're a religious
link |
believer now, your belief can't ground your understanding of what you ought to be aiming
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at in the life in the way it used to be able to.
link |
You can't say, as a religious believer, I know it's right to do this.
link |
Because you also know that if you meet someone who doesn't share that religious belief and
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so doesn't think it's right to do that necessarily or does, but for different reasons, you can't
link |
conclude that they've got it wrong.
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So there's this sort of unsettling aspect to it.
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Well, isn't it true that you can't conclude as a public statement to others, but within
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your own mind, it's almost like an existentialist version of belief, which is like you create
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the world and around you, like it doesn't matter what others believe.
link |
It's actually almost like empowering thought.
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So as opposed to the more traditional view of religion, where it's like a tribal idea,
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like where you share that idea together.
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Here you have the full, back to Sartre, full responsibility of your beliefs as well.
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But what you're describing is not a religious believer, right?
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You're describing someone who's found in themselves the ground of their existence rather than
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in something outside of themselves.
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So the religious belief, I mean, if you go full Sartrean, then, well, you're not in a
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position to criticize others for the choices that they make, but you are in a position
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to criticize them for the way in which they make them, either taking responsibility or
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not taking responsibility.
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But the religious believer used to be able to say, look, the choices that I make are
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right because God demands that I make them.
link |
And nowadays, and so it would be wrong to make any others.
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And nowadays, to say that we live in a secular age, say, well, you can't quite do that and
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be a religious believer.
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Your religious belief can't justify that move, and so it can't ground your life in the way
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So it's sort of unsettling.
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I think that's one of the interpretations of what Nietzsche might have meant when he
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God can't play the role for religious believers in our world that he used to.
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But we nevertheless find meaning.
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I mean, you don't see nihilism as a prevalent set of ideas that are overtaken in modern
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So a secular world is still full of meaning.
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Well, I think that's the interesting question.
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I think it's certainly possible for a secular world to be a world in which we live meaningful
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lives, worthwhile lives, lives that are worthy of respect and that we can be proud of aiming
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But I think it is a hard question what we're doing when we do that.
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And that is the question of existence.
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What does it mean to exist in a way that brings us out at our best as the beings that we are?
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That's the question for existentialism.
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So besides Sartre, who to you is the most important existentialist to understand for
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What ideas in particular of theirs do you like?
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Maybe other existentialists, not just one.
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So Sartre is the grounding, strong atheistic existentialism statement.
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Who else is there?
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So I'm teaching an existentialism course now, and I think the tradition goes back at least
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to the 17th century.
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And I'll just tell you some of the figures that I'm teaching there.
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We can talk about any of them that you like.
link |
The figure I start with is Pascal.
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Pascal, French mathematician from 17th century.
link |
He died, I'm terrible with dates, but I think 1661 or something like that, middle of the
link |
Brilliant polymath, we have computer languages named after him.
link |
He built the first mechanical calculating machine.
link |
But he was also deeply invested in his understanding of what Christianity was.
link |
And he thought that everyone before him had really misunderstood what Christianity was,
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that they'd really attempted to think about it, not as a way of living a life, but as
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a set of beliefs that you can have and which you can justify.
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And I think that's the first move that's really pretty interesting.
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And then figures like Kierkegaard and Dostoevsky developed that move.
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All of those take themselves to be defending an interpretation of a certain kind of Christianity,
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an existential interpretation of Christianity.
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And then I think there are other figures, other theistic figures, figures like Camus
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and Fanon, who are mid 20th century figures.
link |
And then I'll just mention the figure who I think is the most interesting is Martin
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He's a complicated figure because...
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By the way, when you said, sorry to interrupt, that when you said Camus, you meant atheistic?
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I think that Camus is an atheistic existentialist, yeah, I'm happy to talk about that.
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So okay, so we got, it's like sports cards, we have the different existentialists.
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So maybe let's go to...
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Let's go to Dostoevsky.
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Okay, let's do it.
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So my favorite novel of his is The Idiot.
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First of all, I see myself as the idiot and an idiot.
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And I love the optimism and the love the main character has for the world.
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So that just deeply connects with me as a novel.
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It comes from underground as well, but what ideas of Dostoevsky's do you think are existentialists?
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What ideas are formative to the whole existentialist movement?
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So let me talk about The Brothers Karamazov.
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Partly because that's the last novel that Dostoevsky wrote.
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I think it's certainly one of the greatest novels of the 19th century, maybe the best.
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And I'm about to teach it in a few weeks.
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So I'm super excited about it.
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What is The Brothers Karamazov about?
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I mean, without spoiling the ending for anyone.
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I mean, look, it's a murder mystery, right?
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I mean, the father gets murdered.
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And the question is, who did it?
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Who's responsible for it?
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So there's a notion of responsibility here, like in Sartre.
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But it's responsibility for a murder, that's what we're talking about.
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And there's a bunch of brothers, each of whom has pretty good motivation for having murdered
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The father's a jerk.
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I mean, if anybody is worthy of being murdered, he's the guy.
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He's a force of chaos and he's nasty in all sorts of ways.
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But still, it's not good to murder people.
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So what's the view of Dostoevsky?
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I mean, it's this intense exploration of what it means to be involved in various ways with
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an activity that everyone can recognize as atrocious.
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And what the right way is to take responsibility for that?
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What the right way is to relate to others in the face of it?
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And how, even through this kind of action, you can achieve some kind of salvation.
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That's Dostoevsky's word for it.
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But salvation here and now, not like you live some afterlife where you're paradise for eternity.
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Who cares about that, says one of the characters.
link |
That doesn't make my life now any good and it doesn't justify any of the bad things that
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happen in my life now.
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What matters is can we live well in the face of these things that we do and have to take
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responsibility for?
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So it's this intense exploration of notions and gradations of guilt and responsibility
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and the possibility of love and salvation in the face of those.
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It is incredibly human work.
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But I think Dostoevsky is the opposite of Sartre.
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And let me just...
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I think it's so fascinating.
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I don't know anybody else who notices this.
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But Sartre actually quotes a passage from Dostoevsky when he's developing his view.
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It's close to a passage.
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It doesn't appear quite in this way.
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But the passage that Sartre quotes is this.
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It's in the form of an argument.
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Sartre puts it in the form of argument.
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He says, look, there's a conditional statement is true.
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If there is no God, then everything is permitted.
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And then there's a second premise.
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That's Sartre's view.
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I mean, he's an atheist.
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Conclusion, everything is permitted.
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And that's Sartre's radical freedom.
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And if you think about the structure of the Brothers Karamazov, I think Dostoevsky, though
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he never says it this way, would run the argument differently.
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It's a modus tollens instead of a modus ponens.
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The argument for Dostoevsky would go like this.
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Yeah, conditional statement, if there is no God, then everything is permitted.
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But look at your life.
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Not everything is permitted.
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You do horrible, atrocious things like be involved in the death of your father.
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And there is a price to pay.
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That's not a livable moment to have to take responsibility, to have to recognize that
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you're at fault or you're somehow guilty for having been involved in whatever way you were
link |
in letting that happen or bringing it about that it does happen, is to pay a price.
link |
So we're not beings that are constituted in such a way that everything is permitted.
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Look at the facts of your existence.
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So not everything is permitted.
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Therefore there is a God.
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And the presence of a God for Dostoevsky, I think, is just found in this fact that when
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we do bad things, we feel guilty for them, that we find ourselves to be responsible for
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things even when we didn't intend to do them, but we just allowed ourselves to be involved
link |
And the nature of God for Dostoevsky is, I mean, unclear.
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I mean, it's a very complex exploration in itself.
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And he basically, God speaks through several of his characters in complicated ways.
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So it's not like a trivial version of God.
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It's totally not trivial.
link |
And it's not a being that exists outside of time.
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None of that is sort of relevant for Dostoevsky.
link |
For him, it's a question about how we live our lives.
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Do we live our lives in the mood that Christianity says it makes available to us, which is the
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Is there, maybe this is a bit of a tangent, but so I'm a Russian speaker and one of the,
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I kind of listen to my heart and what my heart says is I need to take on this project.
link |
So there's a couple of famous translators of Dostoevsky and Tolstoy that live in Paris
link |
So I'm going to take the journey.
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We agreed to have a full conversation about Dostoevsky, about Tolstoy and like a series
link |
And the reason I fell in love with this idea is I just realized in translating from Russian
link |
to English how deep philosophical, how much deep philosophical thinking is required.
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Just like single sentences.
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They spent like weeks debating single sentences.
link |
So and all of that is part of a journey to Russia for several reasons.
link |
But I just, I want to explore something in me that longs to understand and to connect
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with the roots where I come from.
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So maybe can you comment, whether it's on the Russian side or the German side or other
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French side, is there something in your own explorations of these philosophies that you
link |
find that you miss because you don't deeply know the language?
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Or like how important is it to understand the language?
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I think it's super important and I'm always embarrassed that I don't know more languages
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and don't know the languages I know as well as I would like to.
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But there's a way in.
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So I do think different languages allow you to think in different ways and that there's
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a sort of a mode of existence, a way of being that's captured by a language that it makes
link |
certain ways of thinking about yourself or others more natural and it closes off other
link |
ways of thinking about yourself and others.
link |
And so I think languages are fascinating in that way.
link |
The Heidegger who is this philosopher that I'm interested in says at one point, language
link |
is the house of being.
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And I think that means something like it's by living in a language that you come to understand
link |
or that possibilities for understanding what it is to be you and others and anything are
link |
And different languages open up different possibilities.
link |
And we had that discussion offline about James Joyce, how I took a course in James Joyce
link |
and how I don't think I understood anything besides the dead and the short stories.
link |
And you suggested that it might be helpful to actually visit Ireland, visit Dublin to
link |
truly to help you understand, maybe fall in love with the words.
link |
And so that presumably is not purely about the understanding of the actual words of the
link |
It's understanding something much deeper, the music of the language or something, music
link |
Something like that.
link |
It's very hard to say exactly what that is.
link |
But when you hear an Irish person who really understands Joyce read some sentences, they
link |
have a different cadence, they have a different tonality, they have different music to use
link |
And all of a sudden you think about them differently and the sentences sort of draw different thoughts
link |
out of you when they're read in certain ways.
link |
That's what great actors can do.
link |
But I think language is rich like that.
link |
And the idea which philosophers tend to have that we're really studying the crucial aspects
link |
of language when we think about its logical form, when we think about the sort of claims
link |
of philosophical logic that you can make or how do you translate this proposition into
link |
some symbolic form, I think that's part of what goes on in language.
link |
But I think that when language affects us in the deep way that it can when great poets
link |
or great writers or great thinkers use it to great effect, it's way more than that.
link |
And that's the interesting form of language that I'm interested in.
link |
It's kind of a challenge I'm hoping to take on is I feel like some of the ideas that are
link |
conveyed through language are actually can be put outside of language.
link |
So one of the challenges I have to do is to have a conversation with people in Russian,
link |
but for an English audience and not rely purely on translators.
link |
There would of course be translators there that help me dance through this mess of language,
link |
but also like my goal, my hope is to dance from Russian to English back and forth for
link |
an English speaking audience and for a Russian speaking audience.
link |
So not this pure, this is Russian, it's going to be translated to English or this is English,
link |
it's going to be translated to Russian, but dance back and forth and try to share with
link |
people who don't speak one of the languages, the music that they're missing and sort of
link |
almost hear that music as if you're sitting in another room and you hear the music through
link |
I get a sense of it.
link |
I think that would be a waste if I don't try to pursue this being a bilingual human being.
link |
And I wonder whether it's possible to capture some of the magic of the ideas in a way that
link |
can be conveyed to people who don't speak that particular language.
link |
I think it's a super exciting project.
link |
I look forward to following it.
link |
I'll tell you one thing that does happen.
link |
So we read Dostoevsky in translation.
link |
Occasionally I do have Russian speakers in the room, which is super helpful, but I also
link |
encourage my students to, some of them will have different translations than others.
link |
And that can be really helpful for the non native speaker because by paying attention
link |
to the places where translators diverge in their translations of a given word or a phrase
link |
or something like that, you can start to get the idea that somehow the words that we have
link |
in English, they don't have the same contours as the word in Russian that's being translated.
link |
And then you can start to ask about what those differences are.
link |
And I think there's a kind of magic to it.
link |
I mean, it's astonishing how rich and affecting these languages can be for people who grew
link |
up in them, especially who speak them as native speakers.
link |
And that's a really powerful thing that actually doesn't exist enough of is, for example, for
link |
Dostoevsky, most novels have been translated by two or three famous translators.
link |
And there's a lot of discussion about who did it better and so on.
link |
But I would love to, I'm a computer science person, I would love to do a diff where you
link |
automatically detect all the differences in the translation just as you're saying and
link |
use that, like somebody needs to publish literally just books describing the differences.
link |
In fact, I'll probably do a little bit of this.
link |
I heard the individual translators in interviews and in blog posts and articles discuss particular
link |
phrases that they differ on, but like to do that for an entire book, that's a fascinating
link |
exploration as an English speaker, just to read the differences in the translations.
link |
You probably can get some deep understanding of ideas in those books by seeing the struggle
link |
of the translators to capture that idea.
link |
That's a really interesting idea.
link |
And you can do that for other projects and other languages too.
link |
I mean, one of the, I don't know, I have this weird, huge range of interests and some days
link |
I'll find myself reading about something.
link |
At one point I was interested in 14th century German mysticism.
link |
Turns out there's somebody who's written like volumes and volumes about this.
link |
And I was interested in reading Meister Eckhart.
link |
I wanted to know what was interesting about him.
link |
And the sort of move that this guy Bernard McGinn, who's the great scholar of this period
link |
made, was to say what Eckhart did, and everybody knows this, he translated Christianity into
link |
He started giving sermons in German to the peasants, sermons used to be in Latin and
link |
nobody could speak Latin.
link |
Can you imagine sitting there for a two hour sermon in a language that you don't know?
link |
So he translated it into German, but in doing it, the resources of the German language are
link |
different from the resources of the Latin language.
link |
Then there's a word in middle high German, Grund, which we translated as ground.
link |
And it's got this earthy feel to it.
link |
It sort of invokes the notion of soil and what you stand on and what things grow out
link |
of and sort of what you could run your fingers through that would have a kind of honesty
link |
And there's no Latin word for that.
link |
But in Eckhart's interpretation of Christianity, Grund, that's like the fundamental thing.
link |
You don't understand God until you understand the way in which he is our ground.
link |
And all of a sudden, this mysticism gets a kind of German cant that makes sense to the
link |
people who speak German and that reveals something totally different about what you could think
link |
that form of existence was that was covered over by the fact that it had always been done
link |
Yeah, that's fascinating.
link |
So we talked about Dostoevsky and the use of murder to explore human nature.
link |
Let's go to Camus, who is maybe less concerned with murder, more concerned with suicide as
link |
a way to explore human nature.
link |
So he is probably my favorite existentialist, probably one of the more accessible existentialists.
link |
And like you said, one of the people who didn't like to call himself an existentialist.
link |
So what are your thoughts about Camus?
link |
What role does he play in the story of existentialism?
link |
So I find Camus totally fascinating.
link |
And for years, I didn't teach Camus because the famous thing that you're referring to,
link |
The Myth of Sisyphus, which is a sort of essay, it's published as a book, super accessible,
link |
really fascinating.
link |
He's a great writer, really engaging.
link |
The opening line is something like, there is but one truly significant philosophical
link |
question, and that is the question of suicide.
link |
And I thought, I can't teach my 18 year olds.
link |
I just thought that's terrible.
link |
I mean, it's not wrong, but do I want to bring that into the classroom?
link |
And so I read it, I read the essay, I avoided it for a long time just because of that line.
link |
And I thought, I'm not going to be able to make sense of this in a way that will be helpful
link |
But finally, one year, maybe seven or eight years ago, I sat down to read it.
link |
I thought, I've got to really confront it.
link |
And I read it and it's incredibly engaging.
link |
I mean, it's really, really beautiful.
link |
And Camus was against suicide, which just turns out to be good.
link |
I was happy about that, but he has a bit of a bleak understanding of what human existence
link |
And so in the end, he thinks that human existence is absurd.
link |
And absurd is a kind of technical term for him.
link |
And it means that the episodes in your life and your life as a whole presents itself to
link |
you as if it's got a meaning, but really it doesn't.
link |
So there's this tension between the way things seem to be on their surface and what really
link |
turns out to be true about them.
link |
And he gives these great examples.
link |
You probably remember these.
link |
He says, there you are, you're walking along the street and there's a plate glass window
link |
in a building and through the window you see somebody talking on a telephone.
link |
I mean, I imagined it as a cell phone, but Camus didn't, but you see somebody talking
link |
on a cell phone and he's animated.
link |
He's talking a lot as if things really meant something.
link |
And yet Camus says, it's a dumb show.
link |
And it's not dumb just in the sense that it's stupid.
link |
It's dumb in the sense that it's silent.
link |
It presents itself as if it's got some significance and yet its significance is withheld from
link |
And he says, that's what our lives are like.
link |
Everything in our lives presents themselves to us as if it's got a significance, but it
link |
doesn't, it's absurd.
link |
And then he says, really what our lives are like, they're like the lives of Sisyphus.
link |
Just day after day, you do the same thing.
link |
You wake up at a certain time, you get on the bus, you go to work, you take your lunch
link |
break, you get off.
link |
I have a colleague who once said to me something like this, it was about October or so in the
link |
I said, how's it going, Dick?
link |
He said, well, you know how it is.
link |
I got on the conveyor belt at the beginning of the semester and I'm just going through
link |
and that's the way my life is.
link |
And Camus thinks that experience, which you can sometimes have, reveals something true
link |
about what human lives are like.
link |
Our lives really just are like the life of Sisyphus who rolls this boulder up the hill
link |
from morning till night.
link |
And then at night he gets to the top and it rolls back down to the bottom.
link |
Over the course of the night, he walks back down and then he starts it all over again.
link |
And he says, Sisyphus is condemned to this life like we're condemned to our lives.
link |
But we do have one bit of freedom and it's the only thing that we can hang on to.
link |
It's the freedom to stick it to the gods who put us in this position by embracing this
link |
existence rather than giving up and committing suicide.
link |
And I thought, well, it's kind of a happy ending.
link |
But I also thought it's a dim view of what our existence amounts to.
link |
So I think there's something fascinating about that.
link |
But what I came to believe, and I tried to write about this once, I know you read the
link |
thing about aliveness that I published once, that's secretly a criticism of Camus.
link |
I don't think I mentioned Camus in there.
link |
But I think Camus has got the phenomenon wrong or he's missed some important aspect of it.
link |
Because in Camus view, when you experience your day as sort of going on in this deadening
link |
way and you're just doing the things that you always do the way you always do them,
link |
for Camus, that reveals the truth about what our lives are.
link |
But I think there's some aspect, at least for me, and maybe he just didn't feel this
link |
or didn't have access to it, maybe others don't.
link |
But for me, there's an extra part to it, which is somehow that, yes, that's the way
link |
things are and it's inadequate.
link |
And there's something that's missing from that aspect of our existence that could be
link |
And it feels like our lives are not about just putting up with that and sticking it
link |
to the gods by embracing it, but seeking that absence part of it, the part that's recognizable
link |
in its absence in your experience of that.
link |
And that's what I think.
link |
I think we do have the experience of the presence of that in moments when you feel truly alive.
link |
And that's what you mean by the word aliveness, which is a fascinating and a powerful word.
link |
Yeah, that's what I mean by it.
link |
I think most people can recognize moments in their lives when they really felt alive.
link |
And it could happen in a moment when, I don't know, maybe Miles Davis felt it in that moment
link |
when he was responding to Herbie Hancock's chord, or maybe you feel it in that moment
link |
where you grab for the hand on the first date and the gesture is reciprocated, or maybe
link |
you feel it in some moment when you are doing a kind of peak athletic thing or watching
link |
somebody else do a peak athletic thing.
link |
But I think there are moments when it feels like it's not like the way Camus is describing
link |
And it's better because of that.
link |
So I think one really powerful way for me to understand aliveness is to think about
link |
going to a darker territory, is to think about suicide.
link |
And I've known people in my life who suffer from clinical depression.
link |
And whatever the chemistry is in our brain, there is a certain kind of feeling that is
link |
to be depressed, where you look in the mirror and ask, do I want to kill myself today?
link |
This is the question that Camus asks, this question, this philosophical question.
link |
And there is people who, when they're depressed, say, not only do they say, I want to kill
link |
myself or I don't, they say, it doesn't matter.
link |
And that's chemistry, that's whatever that is, that's chemistry in our mind.
link |
And then on the flip side of that, for me, I've had some low points, but I've been very
link |
fortunate to not suffer from that kind of depression.
link |
I am the opposite, which is not only moments of peak performance in athletics or great
link |
music or any of that, I'm just deeply joyful often by mundane things.
link |
As you were saying it, I was drinking this thing and it's cold, and for some reason the
link |
coldness of that was like, oh, great, like refrigeration.
link |
There was a joy in that, like, I can't put it into words, but it just felt great.
link |
And then just so many things, you look out in nature, there's a nice breeze and just
link |
like, it's amazing.
link |
So that doesn't feel like I'm embracing the absurd.
link |
That seems like I'm getting some nice like dopamine hits in whatever the chemistry is
link |
from just the basics of life, and that is the source of aliveness.
link |
However my brain is built, it's gotten a natural sort of mechanism for aliveness.
link |
And so one nice way to see the absence of aliveness is to look at the chemical, the
link |
clinical depression.
link |
And so that Camus doesn't seem to contend with that at all in asking the question of
link |
suicide because when you look in the mirror and ask, like, if I ask myself, do I want
link |
to kill myself today, I ask that question in a different way, more like a stoic way
link |
often, like basically every day is, you know, what if I die today?
link |
It's more like contemplating your mortality every single day.
link |
You know, that excites me, the possibility that this is my last day, that, you know,
link |
it just reminds me how amazing life is.
link |
And that's chemistry, I don't know what that is, but that's not, that's certainly not some
link |
kind of philosophical decision I made.
link |
I am a little bit riding a wave of the chemistry of the genetics I've been given, of the dopamine.
link |
So that question of suicide, by the way, do you find that formulation of the question
link |
of existentialism, I know you didn't want to teach it because obviously suicide is a
link |
very difficult word, especially for young minds, but do you think that's a useful formulation
link |
of the question of existentialism?
link |
Like him saying, this is the most important question of suicide.
link |
I think there is something to it, if you read the question as the question, what is it in
link |
virtue of which it ought to be desirable to live the lives that we're capable of living?
link |
That's a deep question.
link |
Yeah, that's a question that gets focused when someone asks themselves whether they
link |
ought to continue to live that life.
link |
The famous line, nothing focuses the mind more than one's impending execution.
link |
I think there's something important about that, that recognizing the riskiness and the
link |
vulnerability of one's existence is super important.
link |
And I think that if we didn't have that, our lives wouldn't be capable of being meaningful.
link |
If they weren't risky and vulnerable, there would be nothing to lose.
link |
And it's only because there are things to lose that they can come to have the significance
link |
So yeah, I think I'm not against the idea that that's a deep way of approaching the
link |
questions at the core of existentialism.
link |
But as you said, I was worried for a while about how I was going to teach it.
link |
Well, I think there's a difference between suicide and not living because suicide is
link |
So it feels like to me, like suicide doesn't make sense because, you know, imagine you're
link |
in like a hotel and you're saying the room I'm in sucks, but like there's other rooms.
link |
So like maybe explore those other rooms.
link |
Maybe you'll find meaning in those other rooms, like basically embracing the fact that you
link |
don't know everything and there's a, you need time to explore everything.
link |
It's like once you've explored everything, then maybe you can make a full decision.
link |
But it's unfair to make a decision.
link |
It's I would say unethical to make a decision until you've explored all the rooms in the
link |
And this gets focused in the brothers Karamazov, of course.
link |
There's one brother who is really asking that question, is asking the question of suicide.
link |
He's asking the question whether the world that we live in is a world that's worth living
link |
And I think that character is, as you say, very ill.
link |
And it's possible and often because, as you say, of, you know, brain chemistry, physiology,
link |
there's certainly a physical ground to that situation, to that condition.
link |
But I think it is possible for someone to be in that situation.
link |
I think that Ivan Karamazov, who's the character who's asking this question, is, you know,
link |
maybe let's say chemically depressed or something like that.
link |
But I think there's more to it too.
link |
And I think that Dostoevsky's real view is that the brain chemistry doesn't exist on
link |
Like the way we interact with one another, the way we care about or isolate ourselves
link |
from others, the way we care for the lives that we lead, affects the chemistry of our
link |
brain, which goes on and changes the mood that we're in.
link |
So I think Dostoevsky does think that Ivan's salvation, if he's capable of being saved,
link |
is gonna come through the love of his brother Alyosha.
link |
Let me spring maybe a bit of a tangent on you.
link |
Do you ever, one of my other favorite authors is Herman Hesse.
link |
Do you ever include him in our deck of sport cards that represent existentialism?
link |
What should I read?
link |
What should I think about including?
link |
Oh no, there's some kind of embrace of absurdism.
link |
Like there's a existentialist kind of ideal pervading most of his work.
link |
But there's more of a, like with Siddhartha, there's more almost like a Buddhist sort of
link |
like watch the river and like become the river.
link |
Like this kind of idea that what it means to truly experience the moment.
link |
So there is an experiential part of existentialism where you want to, it's not just about, we've
link |
been talking about kind of decisions and actions, but also what it means to listen, like you
link |
said from Nietzsche, like what it means to really take in the world and experience the
link |
So he's very good at writing about what it means to experience the moment and experience
link |
the full absurdity of the moment.
link |
And for him, I'm starting to forget, Steppenwolf, I think, is humor.
link |
It's part of the absurdity, which I think modern day internet explores very well with
link |
Humor is a fundamental part of the existentialist ethic that's able to deal with absurdity.
link |
You got to like laugh at it.
link |
I think there is some, let me just say something about humor because I think you're absolutely
link |
Richard Bard, who is Danish and most people think deeply depressed and so on, is actually
link |
an incredibly funny writer.
link |
And someone who was a classmate of mine in graduate school who left philosophy to become
link |
a Hollywood comedy writer, he's a very successful guy.
link |
And then he came back 25 years later and finished his dissertation.
link |
And I was the reader on the dissertation, there may be a conflict of interest, I'm not
link |
But his dissertation was about, he called it Kierkegaard and the Funny, which is a kind
link |
of a funny title, yeah.
link |
But Kierkegaard, according to Eric Kaplan's reading, Kierkegaard does have this idea that
link |
there's something destabilizing about humor that's crucial to the important possibilities
link |
And so there's the idea that there's a moment when a joke is being set up, when you're sort
link |
of proceeding as if you're on stable ground, and then the punchline comes and the rug is
link |
pulled out from under you.
link |
And for a moment, it's like you're falling.
link |
There's nothing supporting you until you're captured by your totally new understanding
link |
of what was going on, and that humor necessarily has that kind of destabilizing feature to
link |
And that's like the riskiness, that's like the riskiness that you were pointing to.
link |
If there aren't risks in your life, if your life is totally safe, then there's no possibility
link |
And so I think on Eric's reading, Kierkegaard sort of wants to line up the importance of
link |
the riskiness and vulnerability in your life to its having meaning with the experience
link |
of destabilization that you get in jokes and comedy, which then becomes significant, right?
link |
When you remember having heard a joke for the first time, it's got a kind of salience
link |
Speaking of jokes, and speaking of, you mentioned film and literature, so existentialism in
link |
film and literature.
link |
I think for a lot of people, especially nihilism, was experienced in the great modern work of
link |
art called Big Lebowski.
link |
I don't know if you've ever seen that film, but there's a group of nihilists in that film.
link |
They're just like, they don't care about anything.
link |
I think they happen to be German, at least they have German accents.
link |
So maybe can you talk about notable appearances of existentialism in film, and if you at all
link |
ever bring up Big Lebowski, if that ever comes into play?
link |
So I know that people think about the Big Lebowski in this context, and I did actually
link |
rewatch it not so long ago.
link |
We have kids, and I thought, maybe it's time.
link |
It wasn't really time for the 11 year old, so somewhat inappropriate.
link |
I have never taught that film, so I'd have to think more.
link |
We could talk about it.
link |
I'd be happy to try to think on the fly about it.
link |
Okay, so I would love to, because there is a, feels like there's a philosophical depth
link |
So there's a person that just, the main character.
link |
The Jeff Bridges character.
link |
Jeff Bridges character, yeah.
link |
He kind of, he drinks like these white Russians, and he just kind of walks around in a very
link |
relaxed way, and irradiates both a love for life, but also just an acceptance of like,
link |
it is what it is kind of philosophy.
link |
And then there's a bunch of characters that have very busy lives trying to do some big
link |
projects that are dramatic in some way, make some huge amounts of money.
link |
So it kind of actually reminds me of The Idiot by Dostoevsky in a certain kind of sense.
link |
And then there's these players, I mean, they're phrased as nihilists, but they kind of don't
link |
care to enjoy life.
link |
They want to mess with life in some kind of way.
link |
And of course there's interesting personalities that, what is it, Jesus, the bowler.
link |
And then there's like Donnie, who is a bit clueless, and then there's the John Goodman
link |
character that's talking about Vietnam and just takes life way too seriously, too intensely
link |
So it just paints a full sort of spectrum of characters that are operating in this world.
link |
And perhaps most importantly for existentialism are thrown into absurdity and hence the humor.
link |
Well, that's helpful.
link |
Reminding me of all that.
link |
So one thing to say is that the nihilists, the group of nihilists who call themselves
link |
nihilists, I think they've got a bad misinterpretation of what nihilism is supposed to be.
link |
And this happened actually in the 20s.
link |
There was a famous case of a couple of German students, Leopold and Loeb, who'd read a lot
link |
of Nietzsche, Nietzsche was a kind of hero for the Nazis even, I think based on a pretty
link |
bad misunderstanding of what he was up to.
link |
But Leopold and Loeb had the bad understanding first and they were students, they'd read
link |
a lot of Nietzsche and they thought, okay, nothing means anything.
link |
The only way that there's any significance in life is through our will to sort of powerfully
link |
bring something about.
link |
And if we're gonna do that in a way that reflects the fact that nothing means anything, then
link |
what we should do is take these things, these actions that people always thought were bad
link |
and do them and show that there's nothing wrong with doing them.
link |
And so they decided they would murder someone.
link |
Not because they were angry at them, just someone they'd never met.
link |
It was important that it was someone they'd never met.
link |
It was totally unmotivated act.
link |
And they thought, we'll embrace nihilism by showing that we can act in such a way as to
link |
do something that morality thinks is bad and through our will bring it about that we desire
link |
to do it for no reason that has anything to do with its potentially being interpretable
link |
And I think that's a terrible misreading of what Nietzsche thinks the response to nihilism
link |
I mean, I think, read that against the Miles Davis thing.
link |
Miles Davis aim is to creatively bring it about that something works well in a situation
link |
where he is kind of constrained.
link |
So they thought two things, one, there are no constraints at all, not even the constraints
link |
of the situation that we find ourselves in.
link |
And two, we only become the beings that we really are when we act against what you might
link |
have thought the constraints were.
link |
And I just think that's a bad misreading of what that kind of nihilism is up to.
link |
And I think maybe that group in the Big Lebowski has got that kind of bad misreading.
link |
But then the major characters are much more interesting.
link |
Go ahead and say something.
link |
So there's some kind of apathy to that particular nihilism.
link |
Could you comment on whether you see sort of apathy as a philosophy part of that nihilism?
link |
Sort of like from an existentialist perspective, how important is it to care about stuff?
link |
Like really take on life?
link |
What does existentialism have to say about just sitting back and just not caring?
link |
So apathy is like a really important word.
link |
The Greek word is apathe, it means without passions.
link |
And the Stoics, who you mentioned earlier, really thought that passions are what get
link |
in the way if you're living well.
link |
Because to live well, you have to think clearly about what you should do and you shouldn't
link |
let your resentments and your angers and your petty animosities direct your behavior.
link |
You should release yourself from those kinds of passions.
link |
So Stoicism, again, huge caricature, but it's an aim not to care because caring is bad.
link |
And there's certain forms of existentialism, certainly in Pascal and Kierkegaard and Dostoevsky
link |
and Heidegger and Sartre in his own way.
link |
So it's not just a theistic or atheistic thing.
link |
What's crucial about us is that we do care.
link |
Heidegger says, care is the being of Dasein, Dasein is his name for us.
link |
What it is to be us is to be the being that already cares.
link |
And you can't not do that.
link |
You can pretend you're not doing it, but you're just caring in a different way.
link |
It's like Sartre saying, you can pretend you're not taking responsibility.
link |
You can pretend that you don't have to make a decision, that is making a decision.
link |
Not caring is a way of caring.
link |
And so I think the existentialists that I'm interested in think that we do care.
link |
That's constitutive of what it is to be us.
link |
And so they'll think that the Stoics got it wrong.
link |
But that leaves open a huge range of moves about how we inhabit that existence well.
link |
Let me ask about Ayn Rand.
link |
So it just so happens that she's entered a few conversations in this podcast, and just
link |
looking at academic philosophy or just philosophers in general, they seem to ignore Ayn Rand.
link |
Do you have a sense of why that is?
link |
Did she ever come into play her ideas of objectivism, come into play of discussions of a good life
link |
from the perspective of existentialism in how you teach it and how you think about it?
link |
Is she somebody who you find at all interesting?
link |
So no, I don't think she is, but it's been a long time since I've read her stuff.
link |
I read it in high school.
link |
I read The Fountainhead in high school and Atlas Shrugged, but that's at this point a
link |
very long time ago.
link |
I think I read something about objective epistemology or something too.
link |
So my view about her could be based on a total misunderstanding of what she's up to.
link |
But sort of my caricature of her and tell me if I've got it wrong is that she's sort
link |
of motivated by a kind of, I think maybe sometimes you call it libertarianism, but maybe let's
link |
in the context of our discussion tie it back to Sartre, a kind of view according to which
link |
we're the being who has to contend with the fact that we're radically free to do stuff
link |
and we're just not being courageous or brave enough when we don't do that.
link |
And the people to admire are the people who make stuff out of nothing.
link |
So maybe that's a bad caricature.
link |
I think, no, I think that's pretty accurate.
link |
I'm not again, very knowledgeable about the full depth of her philosophy, but I think
link |
she takes a view of the world that's similar to Sartre in the conclusions, but makes stronger
link |
statements about epistemology that first of all, everything is knowable and there's some,
link |
you should always operate through reason.
link |
Like reason is very important.
link |
Like it's like you start with a few axioms and you build on top of that and the axioms
link |
that everybody should operate on are the same.
link |
Again, reality is objective, it's not subjective.
link |
So from that you can derive the entirety of how humans should behave at the individual
link |
level and at the societal level.
link |
And there's a few conclusions, she would talk about virtue of selfishness and sort of a
link |
lot of people use that to dismiss her, look, she's very selfish and so on.
link |
She actually meant something very different is like, it's more like the Sartre thing,
link |
take responsibility for yourself, understand what forces you're operating under and make
link |
the best of this life.
link |
And that's how you can be the best member of societies by making the best life you can
link |
and just focusing yourself, like fix your own problems first and then that will make
link |
you the best member of society, of your family, of loved ones, of friends and so on.
link |
I think the reason she's disliked, obviously on the philosophy side, she's disliked because
link |
a little bit like Nietzsche, she's literary.
link |
I think the reason she's publicly disliked in sort of public conversations is because
link |
of how sure she is of herself, which is some of the philosophers have been known to do
link |
like make very strong statements like hell is other people, but she was making very strong
link |
statements about basically everything.
link |
But the reason I bring her up is she is an influential thinker that is not for some reason
link |
often brought up as such, it's not acknowledged how influential she is.
link |
I was recently looking at like a list of the most important women of the 20th century in
link |
terms of thought, not science, but like thought and she wasn't in that list.
link |
And I see this time and time again and it doesn't make sense to me why she's so kind
link |
of dismissed because clearly she's an author of some of the most read books like ever and
link |
she clearly had very strong ideas that she'd be contented with.
link |
That's why it kind of didn't make sense to me because she's also a creature of her time
link |
and an important one, she's a creation of the Soviet Union, somebody who left because
link |
of that and so some of the strength of her ideas has to do with how much she dislikes
link |
that particular philosophy and way of life.
link |
But also she's a creature of Sartre and that whole Nietzsche and so on.
link |
Now one of the other criticisms is she doesn't integrate herself into this history.
link |
She keeps basically kind of implying that she's purely original in all her thoughts
link |
even though she's kind of citing a lot of other people.
link |
But again, many philosophers do this kind of thing as if they are truly original and
link |
It is interesting and also what's interesting about her is she is a woman, she is a strong
link |
feminist and it feels like with Simone de Beauvoir, it seems like she's a very important
link |
person in this moment of history that shouldn't be fully forgotten.
link |
Well, so I mean I don't have a lot to add.
link |
I will just say this, I mean the way she and Beauvoir seem to me from your description
link |
of her and remembering what I remember from 35 years ago, they seem pretty opposite from
link |
One of the things I find interesting about Beauvoir is that she takes seriously the thing
link |
that Sartre didn't, which is our throwness, which is the sense in which we're born into
link |
a situation that's already got a significance.
link |
I think it was easier for her to recognize that than Sartre because she was a woman.
link |
And Sartre seems to act as if there are no constraints or at least there shouldn't be.
link |
We're pretty close as privileged white males and if we could just get rid of the last bits
link |
of them, we would be God like we're supposed to be.
link |
And I think Beauvoir sort of sees things differently.
link |
I think she recognizes one's not born but becomes a woman, she says.
link |
So how does that happen?
link |
Well you're thrown into your culture and your culture starts treating you in a certain way
link |
because of your gender and that starts to form your understanding and your experience
link |
By the time you're grown up, well you're pretty well formed by that.
link |
That seems a fact.
link |
It's a fact about Sartre too though, it was harder for him to notice it because he was
link |
formed into his privilege.
link |
But the world reminds us of our throwness for some more than others.
link |
And for people who have to contend on a daily basis with the fact that the social position
link |
they're thrown into is one that negates them or one that oppresses them or one that sort
link |
of pushes them to the side in some way or another, I mean the black experience is interesting
link |
in this respect too.
link |
Frantz Fanon who's a contemporary of Sartre and Beauvoir writes about it and it's very
link |
familiar the things that he's saying now but he writes back in the 50s about being a black
link |
man in Paris and getting on an elevator with a woman alone and how her reaction to him,
link |
not knowing him, not having any views about any reason to have any views about him sort
link |
of puts him in a particular social position with respect to her.
link |
And if you don't have that experience, it's much harder to recognize the way in which
link |
what we're thrown into is something we might not have chosen.
link |
So the idea that that's not an aspect of our existence, which as you describe Ayn Rand's
link |
views, she sounds more like Sartre, she sounds more like either it's not an aspect of our
link |
existence or at least we ought to sort of aim at it's not being an aspect of our existence.
link |
Yeah, almost act as if it's not.
link |
Act as if it's not.
link |
And so I think from my point of view, I don't pretend that I'm explaining the public reception
link |
of her, I'm just sort of trying to say how I understand her in this intellectual context.
link |
From my point of view, that's something big to miss and the ambition to think that really
link |
what's happening is that we're all the same, we're all rational beings.
link |
We're all beings who if we just got the axioms of our existence right and made good judgments
link |
and reasoned in an appropriate way, would optimize ourselves.
link |
That feels to me like a kind of natural end point of the philosophical tradition.
link |
I mean, sort of Plato starts off with a view that helps us in that direction and the enlightenment
link |
moves us further in that direction.
link |
But from my point of view, that movement has led us astray because it's missed something
link |
really important that's crucial to the kind of being that we are.
link |
Yeah, it misses the music.
link |
Exactly, it misses the music.
link |
Let's talk about thrownness and I think you mentioned that in the context of Heidegger.
link |
So can we talk about Heidegger?
link |
Who is this philosopher?
link |
What are some fascinating ideas that he brought to the world?
link |
So Martin Heidegger was a German philosopher.
link |
I do know when he was born, 1889, but I know that only by accident.
link |
It's because it's the same year that Wittgenstein, an Austrian philosopher, was born and the
link |
same year that Hitler was born.
link |
So if I've remembered my dates right and someone will call in and correct me otherwise.
link |
But that's the way it sort of sits in my memory bank.
link |
And it's interesting that the three of them were born at the same time.
link |
Wittgenstein and Heidegger share some similarities, but then it's also interesting that Heidegger
link |
I mean, this is a very disturbing fact about his personal political background.
link |
And so it's something that anyone who thinks that things that he said might be interesting
link |
has got to contend with.
link |
Heidegger was born in Germany, Hitler in Austria.
link |
Wittgenstein is Austria also.
link |
But so you have to, when you call Heidegger a Nazi, you have to remember, I mean, there
link |
was millions of Nazis too.
link |
So like there are parts of their, that's the history of the world.
link |
There's a lot of communists, Marxists and Nazis in that part of history.
link |
And one of the discussion points is, well, was he just a kind of social Nazi?
link |
I mean, you know, he went to parties with them and stuff, or was he like, did he really
link |
believe in the ideology?
link |
And that's a choice point.
link |
And we could talk about it if you want.
link |
He held a political position.
link |
That's one of the relevant parts.
link |
In 1933, he was made rector of the University of Freiburg.
link |
That's like the president of the university.
link |
And that was in Germany, all the universities are state universities.
link |
And so that's a political appointment.
link |
Can we just pause on this point?
link |
From an existentialist perspective, what's the role for standing up to evil?
link |
So I mean, I think Camus probably had something to say about these things because he was a
link |
bit of a political figure.
link |
Like do you have a responsibility, not just for your decisions, but you know, if the world
link |
you see around you is going against what you believe somewhere deep inside is ethical,
link |
do you have a responsibility to stand up to that, even if it costs you your life or your
link |
Well, you ask from an existential perspective and there's lots of different positions that
link |
So let me tell you something in the area of what I think I might believe, which comes
link |
out of this tradition.
link |
And it's this, if you live in a community where people are being dragged down by the
link |
norms of the community rather than elevated, then there's two things that you have to recognize.
link |
One is that you bear some responsibility for that.
link |
Not necessarily because you chose it, maybe you reviled it, maybe you were against it.
link |
But there's some way in which we all act in accordance with the norms of our culture.
link |
We all give in to them in some way or another.
link |
And if those norms are broken, then there's some way in which we've allowed ourselves
link |
to be responsible for broken norms.
link |
We've become responsible for broken norms.
link |
And I do think you have to face up to that.
link |
I think that, let's just take gender norms.
link |
Maybe the gender norms are broken.
link |
Maybe the way men and women treat one another or the way men treat women is broken.
link |
I'm not making a substantive claim, I'm just saying lots of people say it is.
link |
And if you're in a culture where those norms take roots, you don't get to just isolate
link |
yourself and pull yourself out of the culture and think, I don't have any responsibility.
link |
You're already a part of the culture.
link |
Even if you're isolating yourself from it, that's a way of rejecting the sort of part
link |
you play in the culture, but it's not a way of getting behind it.
link |
Now you're playing that role differently.
link |
You're saying, I don't want to take responsibility for what's going on around me.
link |
And that's a way of taking responsibility by refusing to do it.
link |
I think we're implicated in whatever's going on around us.
link |
And if we're going to do anything in our lives, we ought to recognize that, recognize that
link |
even in situations where you maybe didn't decide to do it, you could be part of bringing
link |
other people down and then devote yourself to trying to figure out how to act differently
link |
so that the norms update themselves.
link |
And I think this is not a criticism of people.
link |
Alyosha, who we mentioned in The Brothers Karamazov, he's a character, he's a kind of
link |
saintly character in The Brothers Karamazov.
link |
But that one crucial moment in that story is when he realizes how awful he's been being
link |
to someone without ever even intending to do that.
link |
It's Grushenka, who's this sort of fascinating woman, and she's a very erotic woman.
link |
She's sort of sexual.
link |
And Alyosha, in my reading of it, is kind of attracted to her.
link |
But he's a young kid, he's 20 or whatever, and he's kind of embarrassed about it.
link |
And he lives in the monastery and he's thinking maybe he wants to be a priest and he's kind
link |
of embarrassed by it.
link |
So what does he do?
link |
Every time they run across one another in the street, he averts his gaze.
link |
And why is he doing that?
link |
Because he's kind of embarrassed.
link |
But how does Grushenka experience it?
link |
Well, she knows she's a fallen woman and she knows that Alyosha has this other position
link |
So her read on it is, he's passing judgment on me.
link |
He can see that he doesn't want to be associated with me.
link |
He can see that I'm a fallen woman.
link |
He knows that in order to maintain his purity, he's got to avoid me.
link |
That's not what Alyosha intended to do, but that's the way it's experienced.
link |
And so there's this way he comes to recognize, oh my God, what I'm supposed to do is love
link |
people in Dostoevsky's view of things.
link |
And what I'm doing instead is dragging this poor woman down.
link |
I'm making her life worse.
link |
I'm making her feel terrible about herself.
link |
And if I actually came to know her, I'd recognize her condition is difficult.
link |
She's living a difficult life.
link |
She's making hard choices.
link |
And why don't I see that in her face instead of this other thing that's making me want
link |
And that's a huge moment.
link |
So, but the idea is that we're implicated in bringing other people down, whether we
link |
want to be or not, and that's our condition.
link |
The requirement to understand that is to be almost to a radical degree, be empathetic
link |
and to listen to the world.
link |
And I mean, you brought up sort of gender roles.
link |
It's not so simple.
link |
All of this is messy.
link |
For example, this is me talking.
link |
It's clear to me that, for example, the woke culture has bullying built into it, has some
link |
elements of the same kind of evil built into it.
link |
And when you're part of the wave of wokeness standing up for social rights, you also have
link |
to listen and think, are we going too far?
link |
Are we hurting people?
link |
Are we doing the same things that others that we're fighting against, that others were doing
link |
So it's not simple once you see that there's evil being done that is easy to fix.
link |
No, in our society, there's something about our human nature that just too easily stops
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listening to the world, to empathizing with the world.
link |
And we label things as evil.
link |
This is through human history.
link |
You mentioned tribes.
link |
This religious belief is evil.
link |
And so we have to fight it and we become certain and dogmatic about it.
link |
And then in so doing, commit evil onto the world.
link |
It seems like a life that accepts and responsibility for the norms we're in has to constantly be
link |
sort of questioning yourself and questioning, like listening to the world fully and richly
link |
without being weighed down by any one sort of realization.
link |
You just always constantly have to be thinking about the world.
link |
Am I wrong in seeing the world this way?
link |
I mean, the very last thing you said, you've constantly got to be thinking about the world.
link |
You've constantly got to be listening.
link |
You've constantly got to be attending.
link |
And it's not simple.
link |
All that sounds exactly right to me.
link |
The phrase that rings through my head is another one from the Brothers Karamazov.
link |
Demetri, this passionate sort of sometimes violent brother who is also sort of deeply
link |
I mean, because he's passionate, he's sort of got care through and through, but it's
link |
breaking him apart.
link |
He says at one point, God and the devil are fighting and the battlefield is the heart
link |
And I just think, yeah, it's not simple.
link |
And the idea that there might be a purely good way of doing things is just not our condition.
link |
That everything we do is going to be sort of undermined by some aspect of it.
link |
There's not going to be a kind of pure good in human existence.
link |
And so it's sort of required that we're going to have to be empathetic, that we're going
link |
to have to recognize that others are dealing with that just as we are.
link |
So I apologize for distracting us.
link |
We were talking about Heidegger and the reason we were distracted is he happened to also
link |
be a Nazi, but he nevertheless has a lot of powerful ideas.
link |
What are the ideas he's brought to the world?
link |
So that's a big, huge question.
link |
So let me see how much of it I can get on the table.
link |
I mean, the big picture is that Heidegger thinks, and he's not really wrong to think
link |
this, that the whole history of philosophy from Plato forward, maybe even from the pre
link |
Socratics forward, from like the sixth century BC to now has been grounded on a certain kind
link |
of assumption that it didn't have the right to make and that it's led us astray.
link |
And that until we understand the way in which it's led us astray, we're not going to be
link |
able to get to grips with the condition we now find ourselves in.
link |
So let me start with what he thinks the condition we now find ourselves in is.
link |
Lots of periods to Heidegger's views.
link |
I'm just going to sort of mush it all together for the purposes of today.
link |
Heidegger thinks that one of the crucial things that we need to contend with when we think
link |
about what it is to be us now is that the right name for our age is a technological
link |
And what does it mean for our age to be a technological age?
link |
Well, it means that we have an understanding of what it is for anything at all to be at
link |
all that we never really chose, that sort of animating the way we live our lives, that's
link |
animating our understanding of ourselves and everything else that is quite limited.
link |
And it's organized around the idea that to be something is to be what's sitting there
link |
as an infinitely flexible reserve to be optimized and made efficient.
link |
And Heidegger thinks that's not just the way we think of silicon circuits or the river
link |
when we put a hydroelectric power plant on it, we're optimizing the flow of the river
link |
so that it makes energy which is infinitely flexible and we can use in any way at all.
link |
It's the way we understand ourselves too.
link |
We think of ourselves as this reserve of potential that needs to be made efficient and optimized.
link |
And when I talk with my students about it, I ask them, what's your calendar look like?
link |
What's the goal of your day?
link |
Is it to get as many things into it as possible?
link |
Is it to feel like I've failed unless I've made my life so efficient that I'm doing this
link |
and this and this and this and this that I can't let things go by?
link |
The feeling that I think we all have that there's some pressure to do that, to relate
link |
to ourselves that way is a clue to what Heidegger thinks the technological age is about.
link |
And he thinks that's different from every other age in history.
link |
We used to think of ourselves in the 17th century at the beginning of the Enlightenment
link |
as subjects who represent objects, Descartes thought that a subject is something, some
link |
mental sort of realm that represents the world in a certain way.
link |
And we are closed in on ourselves in the sense that we have a special relation to our representations
link |
and that's what the realm of the subject is.
link |
But others, in the Middle Ages, we were created in the image and likeness of God.
link |
In the pre Socratic age, to be was to be what whooshes up and lingers for a while and fades
link |
The paradigm of what is were thunderstorms and the anger of the gods, Achilles battle
link |
fury and it overtakes everything and stays for a while and then leaves, the flowers blooming
link |
And that's very different from the way we experience ourselves.
link |
And so the question is, what are we supposed to do in the face of that?
link |
And Heidegger thinks that the presupposition that's motivated everything from the pre Socratics
link |
forward is that there is some entity that's the ground of the way we understand everything
link |
to be. For the Middle Ages, it was God.
link |
That was the entity that made things be the things that they are.
link |
For the Enlightenment, it was us.
link |
Maybe for Sartre, it's us.
link |
And Heidegger thinks whatever it is that stands at the ground of what we are, it's not another
link |
It's not another entity.
link |
And we're relating to it in the wrong way if we think of it like that.
link |
This is partly why I was interested in Meister Eckhart.
link |
He says, what there is is there's giving going on in the world, and we're the grateful recipient
link |
And the giving is like whatever it is, it's the social norms that we're thrown into.
link |
We didn't choose them.
link |
They were given to us.
link |
And that's the ground.
link |
That is what makes it possible for anything to be intelligible at all.
link |
If we lived outside of communities, if we lived in a world where there were no social
link |
norms at all, nothing would mean anything.
link |
Nothing would have any significance.
link |
Nothing would be regular in the way that things need to be regular in order for there to be
link |
departures or manifestations of that regularity.
link |
So community norms are crucial, but they're also always updating.
link |
We have some responsibility for what they are and the way in which they're updating
link |
And yet we didn't ever choose it to be that way.
link |
So those norms are somehow giving significance to us in a way that we're implicated in,
link |
we have some relation to, and all that gets covered over if you think of us as efficient
link |
resources to be optimized.
link |
Is that a conflicting view that we are resources to be optimized?
link |
Is that somehow deeply conflicting with the fact that there's a ground that we stand on?
link |
So what Heidegger thinks is that this is, he calls this the supreme danger of the technological
link |
age is that without ever having chosen it, without ever having decided it, this is the
link |
way we understand what it is to be us.
link |
But he thinks that it's also, he says, quoting Holderlin, this 18th century German poet,
link |
he says, in the supreme danger lies the saving possibility.
link |
So what does that mean?
link |
It means that this is the understanding that we've been thrown into, that we've been given.
link |
It's the gift that was given to us.
link |
It's supremely dangerous.
link |
If we let ourselves live that way, we'll destroy ourselves.
link |
But it's also the saving possibility because if we recognize that we never chose that,
link |
that it was given to us, but also we were implicated in its being given and we could
link |
find a way to supersede it, that it's the ground, but it's also updatable.
link |
He calls the ground, the groundless ground.
link |
It's not like an entity, which is there, solid, stable, like God, who's eternal and nonchanging.
link |
It's always updating itself and we're always involved in its being updated, but we're only
link |
involved in it in the right way if we listen, like Miles Davis.
link |
So optimization is not a good way to live life.
link |
If you thought that it was obviously clear that that was the relevant value, so obviously
link |
clear that it never even occurred to you to ask whether it was right to think that, then
link |
you would be in danger.
link |
So yeah, there is some in this modern technological age, in the full meaning of the word technology,
link |
that's updated to actual modern age with a lot more technology going on.
link |
It does feel like colleagues of mine in the tech space actually are somehow drawn to that
link |
optimization as if that's going to save us, as if the thing that truly weighs us down
link |
is the inefficiencies.
link |
And I think if you think about other contexts, like what are the moments when, I mean, we're
link |
unique in this respect.
link |
This period in history is unlike any previous period.
link |
Nobody ever felt that way.
link |
But think about, but it's also true that no previous period in history was nihilistic.
link |
So our condition is tied up, that sort of thing is meant to be a response to the felt
link |
And so no previous epoch in history felt that way.
link |
They didn't have our problem.
link |
So it was much more natural to them to experience moments in ways that feel unachievable for
link |
us, what we were calling moments of aliveness before.
link |
Think about the context in which they felt them.
link |
They weren't efficient, optimized contexts.
link |
Think about the Greeks.
link |
If you ever read Homer, it is a bizarre world back there.
link |
But one of the things that's bizarre is that they're so unmotivated by efficiency and optimizing
link |
that the only thing that seems to run through all of the different Greek cultures is the
link |
idea that if some stranger comes by, you better take care of them because Zeus is the god
link |
of strangers and Zeus will be angry.
link |
That's what they say, right?
link |
But how does it manifest itself?
link |
Odysseus, he's trying to get home and he gets shipwrecked on an island and he's trying
link |
to figure out, he's been at sea for 10 days, he's starving, he's bedraggled and he sees
link |
now Sissa, the princess who's beautiful and he's like, boy, I better, I don't know, get
link |
some clothes or something.
link |
I don't want them to beat me up and kill me.
link |
And so she takes him to the palace.
link |
They have three days of banquets and festivals before they even ask his name.
link |
It's like, here's a stranger.
link |
Our job is to celebrate the presence of a stranger because this is where significance
link |
Now we don't have to feel that way, but the idea that that's one of the places where significance
link |
could lie is pretty strongly at odds with the idea that our salvation is going to come
link |
from optimization and efficiency.
link |
Maybe something about the way we live our lives will have that integrated into it.
link |
But it's at odds with other moments.
link |
Let me ask you a question about Hubert Burt Dreyfus.
link |
He is a friend, a colleague, a mentor of yours, unfortunately no longer with us.
link |
You wrote with him the book titled All Things Shining, Reading the Western Classics to Find
link |
Meaning in a Secular Age.
link |
First, can you maybe speak about who that man was, what you learned from him?
link |
And then we can maybe ask, how do we find through the classics meaning in a secular
link |
So, Burt Dreyfus was a very important philosopher of the late 20th, early 21st century.
link |
He died in 2017, about a little over four years ago.
link |
He was my teacher.
link |
I met him in 1989 when I went away to graduate school in Berkeley, that's where he taught.
link |
He plays an interesting and important role in the history of philosophy in America because
link |
in a period when most philosophers in America and in the English speaking world were not
link |
taking seriously 20th century French and German philosophy, he was.
link |
And he was really probably the most important English speaking interpreter of Heidegger,
link |
the German philosopher that we're talking about, we've been talking about.
link |
He was an incredible teacher, a lot of his influence came through his teaching.
link |
And one of the amazing things about him as a teacher was his sort of mix of intellectual
link |
humility with sort of deep insightful authority.
link |
And he would stand up in front of a class of 300 students, he taught huge classes because
link |
people love to go see him and I taught for him for many years and say, I've been reading
link |
this text for 40 years, but the question you asked is one I've never asked.
link |
And it would be true.
link |
He would find in what people said, things that were surprising and new to him.
link |
And that's humility actually.
link |
Listening to the world.
link |
Absolutely, absolutely.
link |
He was always ready to be surprised by something that someone said and there's something astonishing
link |
So his influence was, for people who didn't know him through his interpretations of these
link |
texts, he wrote about a huge range of stuff.
link |
But for people who did know him, it was through his presence, it was through the way he carried
link |
himself in his life.
link |
And so in any case, that's who he was.
link |
I graduated after many years as a graduate student.
link |
I didn't start in philosophy, I started in math, math and computer science, actually.
link |
And then I did a lot of work in computational neuroscience for a few years.
link |
That's a fascinating journey.
link |
We'll get to it through our friendly conversation about artificial intelligence, I'm sure.
link |
Because you're basically fascinated with the philosophy of mind, of the human mind, but
link |
rooted in a curiosity of mind through the, it's artificial, through the engineering of
link |
Yeah, that's right.
link |
So Bert, I mean, the reason I was attracted to him actually is because of his, to begin
link |
with, was because of his criticisms of what was called traditional symbolic AI in the
link |
So I came to Berkeley as a graduate student who'd done a lot of math and a lot of computer
link |
science, a lot of computational neuroscience.
link |
I noticed that you interview a lot of people in this world.
link |
And I had a teacher at Brown as an undergraduate, Jim Anderson, who wrote with Jeff Hinton a
link |
big book on neural networks.
link |
So I was interested in that, not so interested in traditional AI, like sort of Lisp programming,
link |
things that went on in the 80s, because it felt sort of, when you made a system do something,
link |
all of a sudden it was an interesting thing to have done.
link |
The fact that you'd solved the problem then made it clear that the problem wasn't an interesting
link |
And I had that experience.
link |
And Bert had criticisms of symbolic AI, what he called good old fashioned AI, GoFi.
link |
And I was attracted to those criticisms because it felt to me that there was something lacking
link |
And I didn't know what it was.
link |
I just felt its absence.
link |
And then I learned that all his arguments came from his reading of this phenomenological
link |
and existential tradition.
link |
And so I had to try to figure out what those folks were saying.
link |
And it was a long road, let me tell you.
link |
It took me a long time.
link |
But it was because of Bert that I was able to do that.
link |
So I owe him that huge debt of gratitude.
link |
And eventually we went on to write a book together, which was a great experience.
link |
And yes, we published All Things Shining in 2011.
link |
And that's a book that I definitely would not have had the chutzpah to try to write
link |
if it weren't for Bert because it was really about great literature in the history of the
link |
West from Homer and Virgil and Dante to Melville.
link |
There's a huge chapter on Melville, a big chapter on David Foster Wallace who Bert didn't
link |
care about at all, but I was fascinated by.
link |
And so learning to think that way while writing that book with him was an amazing experience.
link |
So I have to admit, as one of my failings in life, one of many failings is I've never
link |
gotten through Moby Dick or any of Melville's works.
link |
So maybe can you comment on, before we talk about David Foster Wallace, who I have gotten
link |
through, what are some of the sources of meaning in these classics?
link |
So Moby Dick, I think, is the other great novel of the 19th century.
link |
So the Brothers Karamazov and Moby Dick, and they're diametrically opposed, which is one
link |
of the really interesting things.
link |
So Dostoyev, the Brothers Karamazov is a kind of existential interpretation of Russian Orthodox
link |
How do you live that way and find joy in your existence?
link |
Moby Dick is not at all about Christianity.
link |
It sort of starts with the observation that the form of Christianity that Ishmael is familiar
link |
with is broken, it's not gonna work in his living his life.
link |
He has to leave it, he has to go to sea in order to find what needs to happen.
link |
And Ishmael is the boating captain, the whaling boat captain.
link |
So he's not the captain, that's Ahab.
link |
Ahab is the captain.
link |
The famous opening line to the book is, call me Ishmael.
link |
And Ishmael is the main character in the book.
link |
He's the everyday guy.
link |
He's like a nobody on the ship.
link |
He's like, not the lowest, but certainly not the highest.
link |
He's right in the middle.
link |
And he's named Ishmael, which is interesting, because Ishmael is the illegitimate son of
link |
Abraham in the Old Testament.
link |
He is the, I think if I have it right, again, someone will correct me.
link |
I think he's the one that Islam traces its genesis to.
link |
And so Islam is an Abrahamic religion like Judaism and Christianity, but Judaism and
link |
Christianity trace their lineage through Isaac, the quote, unquote, legitimate son of Abraham.
link |
And Ishmael is the other son of Abraham, who he had with a girlfriend.
link |
And so he's clearly outside of Christianity in some way.
link |
He's named after the non Christian sort of son of Abraham.
link |
And the book starts out with this, what does he call it, something like a dark and misty
link |
He's walking along the street and he's overcome by his, I can't remember what the word is,
link |
That's what he calls them.
link |
Things are not going well.
link |
And that's where he starts.
link |
And he signs up to go on this whaling voyage with this captain Ahab, who is this incredibly
link |
charismatic, deeply disturbing character, who is a captain who's got lots of history
link |
and wants to go whaling, wants to get whales.
link |
That's what they do.
link |
They harpoon these whales and bring them back and sell the blubber and the oil and so on.
link |
So he's kind of rich and he's famous and he's powerful, he's an authority figure.
link |
And he is megalomaniacally obsessed with getting one particular whale, which is called Moby
link |
And Moby Dick is like the largest, the whitest, the sort of most terrifying of all the whales.
link |
And Ahab wants to get him because a number of years earlier, he had an encounter with
link |
Moby Dick where Moby Dick bit off his leg.
link |
And he survived, but he had this deeply religious experience in the wake of it.
link |
And he needed to find out what the meaning of that was.
link |
What is the meaning of my suffering?
link |
Who am I such that the world and Moby Dick, this leviathan at the center of it should
link |
treat me this way.
link |
And so his task is not just to go whaling, it's to figure out the meaning of the universe
link |
through going whaling and having a confrontation with his tormentor, this whale, Moby Dick.
link |
And the confrontation is so weird because Melville points out that whales, their faces
link |
are so huge, their foreheads are so huge, and their eyes are on the side of them that
link |
you can never actually look them in the eye.
link |
And it's kind of a metaphor for God, like you can't ever look God in the face.
link |
That's the sort of traditional thing to say about God.
link |
You can't find the ultimate meaning of the universe by looking God in the face.
link |
But Ahab wants to.
link |
He says he's got a pasteboard mask of a face, but I'll strike through the mask and find
link |
out what's behind.
link |
And so Ishmael is sort of caught up in this thing, and he's like going whaling because
link |
he's in a bad mood, and maybe this will make things better.
link |
And he makes friends with this guy Queequeg.
link |
And Queequeg is a pagan.
link |
He's from an island in the South Pacific.
link |
And he's got tattoos all over his body, head to toe.
link |
He's party colored, like every different color, says Ishmael, is these tattoos.
link |
And they are the writing on his body, he says, of the immutable mysteries of the universe
link |
as understood through his culture.
link |
And so somehow Queequeg is this character who is like not Christian at all.
link |
And he's powerful in a very different way than Ahab is.
link |
He's supposed to be the king, he's the son of the king, and probably his father's died
link |
If he was home, he'd be the king.
link |
But he's off on a voyage too, trying to understand who he is before he goes back and leads his
link |
And he's a harpooner, the bravest of the people on the ship.
link |
And he's got the mystery of the universe tattooed on his body, but nobody can understand it.
link |
And it's through his relation with Queequeg that Ishmael comes to get a different understanding
link |
of what we might be about.
link |
So that's Moby Dick in a nutshell.
link |
And connected to a book I have read, which is funny, there's probably echoes that represent
link |
the 20th century now in Old Man and the Sea by Hemingway that also has similar, I guess,
link |
themes, but more personal, more focused on the, I mean, I guess it's less about God.
link |
It's almost more like the existentialist version of Moby Dick.
link |
And hence shorter.
link |
And a lot shorter.
link |
Well, Hemingway was brilliant that way.
link |
But do you see echoes and do you find Old Man and the Sea interesting?
link |
It's been since ninth grade that I read Old Man and the Sea even longer ago than The Fountainhead.
link |
So I didn't know we were going to go there.
link |
I mean, I find Hemingway interesting, but Hemingway, my general sort of picture of him
link |
is that we have to confront the dangers and the difficulties of our life.
link |
We have to develop in ourselves a certain kind of courage and manliness.
link |
And I think there's something interesting about that.
link |
He's for risk in a certain way.
link |
And I think that's important.
link |
But now I don't have any right to say this since it's been so long since I read it.
link |
I do feel like there's, I don't remember a sense for quite the tragedy of it.
link |
Is it a melancholy novel?
link |
I don't even remember.
link |
No, it's, I mean, it has a sense like The Stranger by Camus.
link |
It has a sense of like, this is how life is.
link |
And it has more about old age and that you're not quite the man you used to be feeling of
link |
like, this is how time passes.
link |
And then the passing of time and how you get older and this is one last fish.
link |
It's less about this is the fish.
link |
It's more like this is one last fish.
link |
And asking, who was I as a man, as a human being in this world?
link |
And this one fish helps you ask that question fully.
link |
But it's one fish, which is just sort of all the other fish too.
link |
And that is a big difference because for Ahab, no other fish will do than Moby Dick.
link |
It's gotta be the biggest, the most powerful, the most tormenting.
link |
It's gotta be the one that you've got history with that has defiled you.
link |
And it's a raucous ride, Moby Dick.
link |
What about David Foster Wallace?
link |
So why is he important to you in the search of meaning in a secular age?
link |
So I'll just, just to finish the Moby Dick thing, I think what's interesting about Melville
link |
is that he thinks our salvation comes not if we get in the right relation to monotheism
link |
or Christianity, but if we get in the right relation to polytheism, to the idea that there's
link |
not a unity to our existence, but there are lots of little meanings and they don't cohere.
link |
Sometimes like in Homer, sometimes you're in love.
link |
Helen's in love with Paris and they do crazy things.
link |
They go off and run away and the Trojan war begins.
link |
And sometimes you're in a battle fury.
link |
Love is Aphrodite's realm.
link |
And the battle fury, that's Aries realm and that's a totally different world.
link |
And they're not even, I mean, they're related.
link |
There's a kind of family resemblance, but not much.
link |
Mostly you're just in different sort of local meaningful worlds.
link |
And Melville seems to think that that's a thing that we could aim to bring back.
link |
He says we have to lure back the Merry May Day gods of old and lovingly enthrone them
link |
in the now egotistical sky, the now unhaunted hill.
link |
That's what we live in this world where hills aren't haunted with significance anymore.
link |
And the sky is just a bunch of stuff that we're studying with physics and astrophysics
link |
But they used to be awe inspiring and we have to figure out how to get in that relation
link |
to them, but not by trying to give a unity to our existence through developing habits
link |
and practices that get written on our body.
link |
And so his is about the end of Judeo Christianity and the sort of Roman appropriation of it.
link |
In Wallace, one of the things I think is so interesting about him is that I think he is
link |
a great observer of the contemporary world.
link |
And he's a very funny writer, he's really funny.
link |
But he's a great observer of the contemporary world and what he thought was at the core
link |
of the contemporary world was this constant temptation to diversion through entertainment.
link |
That's a different story than Heidegger's story about efficiency and optimization, but
link |
it's the other side of it.
link |
What is this temptation sort of diverting us from?
link |
The ability to be more efficient.
link |
So you're tempted to go watch some stupid film or television show or something that's
link |
dumb and not really very interesting, but you read that temptation as a temptation precisely
link |
in virtue of it's taking you away from your optimizing your existence.
link |
And so I think there are two sides of the same coin.
link |
I think he's brilliant at describing it.
link |
I think he thought it was a desperate position to be in, that it was something that we needed
link |
to confront and find a way out of and his characters are trying to do that.
link |
And I think there's two different David Foster Wallace's, one, I mean, David Foster Wallace
link |
committed suicide and it's very sad.
link |
And he clearly did have sort of, there was a physiological basis to his condition.
link |
He knew it, he was treating it for decades with medication, he had electroshock therapy
link |
a number of times, it's just very, very sad story.
link |
When I decided that we were going to write about David Foster Wallace, the first thing
link |
I was worried about is can you, like obviously a motivating factor, maybe the motivating
link |
factor in his committing suicide was his physiological condition.
link |
But there was a question, could you think, I mean, he's obsessed with the condition with
link |
what we need to do to achieve our salvation, to live well, to make our lives worth living.
link |
And he clearly in the end felt like he couldn't do that.
link |
So in addition to the physiological thing, which probably most of it, the question for
link |
me was, could you find in his writing what he was identifying as the thing we needed
link |
to be doing that he nevertheless felt we couldn't be doing?
link |
And he talks as if that's the difficulty for him.
link |
So that's one side of him and I did want to find that.
link |
I think there's another side of him that's very different, but you were going to ask
link |
No, please, what's the other side?
link |
I mean, what I write about in the chapter mostly is what I think he's got as our saving
link |
He thinks our saving possibility, he says this in a graduation speech that he gave to
link |
Kenyon, is that we have the freedom to interpret situations however we like.
link |
So what's the problem case for him?
link |
He says, look, the problem case, we have it all the time.
link |
You get pissed off at the world.
link |
Some big SUV cuts you off on the highway and you're pissed off and you might express your
link |
anger with one finger or another directed at that person.
link |
And he says, but actually, you're being pissed off as the result of your having made an assumption.
link |
And the assumption is that that action was directed at you.
link |
Like the assumption is that you're the center of the universe and you shouldn't assume that.
link |
And the way to talk yourself out of it, he says, is to recognize the possibility that
link |
maybe that wasn't an action directed at you.
link |
Maybe that guy is racing to the hospital to take care of his dying spouse who's been there
link |
suffering from cancer, or maybe he's on the way to pick up a sick child, or maybe he's...
link |
And it's not an action directed, that was your assumption, not something that was inherent
link |
And I think there's something interesting about that.
link |
I think there's something right about that.
link |
At the same time, I don't think he speaks as if we can just spin out these stories and
link |
whether they're true or not doesn't matter.
link |
What matters is that they free us from this assumption.
link |
And I think they only free us from this assumption if they're true.
link |
Like sometimes the guy really did direct it at you and that's part of the situation.
link |
And you can't pretend that it's not part of the situation.
link |
You have to find the right way of dealing with that situation.
link |
So you have to listen to what's actually happening and then you have to figure out how to make
link |
And I think he thinks that we have too much freedom.
link |
He thinks that you don't have to listen to the situation, you can just tell whatever
link |
story you like about it.
link |
And I think that's actually too tough.
link |
I don't think we have that kind of freedom.
link |
And he writes these sort of incredibly moving letters when he's trying to write The Pale
link |
King, which is the unfinished novel that really sort of drove him to distraction.
link |
At the center of the novel is this character who...
link |
One of the characters at the center of the novel is a guy who's doing the most boring
link |
thing you could possibly imagine.
link |
He is an IRS tax examiner.
link |
He's going over other people's tax returns, trying to figure out whether they followed
link |
And just the idea of doing that for eight hours a day is just terrifying.
link |
And he puts this guy in a enormous warehouse that extends for miles where person after
link |
person after person is in rows of desks, sort of nameless, each of them doing this task.
link |
So he's in nowhere doing nothing and it's got to be intensely boring.
link |
And now the main character is trying to teach himself to do that.
link |
And the question is, how do you put up with the boredom?
link |
How do you put up with this onslaught of meaninglessness?
link |
And the main character is able to confront that condition with such bliss that he literally
link |
levitates from happiness while he's going over other people's tax returns.
link |
And that's my metaphor for what I think Wallace must have imagined we have to try to aspire
link |
And I think that's unlivable.
link |
I think that's not an ambition that we could achieve.
link |
I think there's something else we could achieve.
link |
And the other thing that we can achieve that I think is something that he also is onto
link |
but doesn't write about as often is something more like achieving peak moments of significance
link |
in a situation when something great happens.
link |
And he writes about this in an article about Roger Federer.
link |
Are you a tennis lover?
link |
I'm not a lover of tennis, but I played tennis for 15 years and so on.
link |
I don't love it the way people love baseball, for example, I see the beauty in it, the artistry.
link |
I just liked it as a sport.
link |
Well, I didn't play much tennis, but I hit a ball around every once in a while as a kid.
link |
And I always thought it was boring to watch.
link |
But reading David Foster Wallace on Roger Federer, you're like, wow, I've been missing
link |
And the article which appeared in the New York Times Magazine was called Roger Federer
link |
as Religious Experience.
link |
And he says, look, there's something astonishing about watching someone who's got a body like
link |
us and having a body as a limitation.
link |
It's like the sight of sores and pains and agony and exhaustion.
link |
And it's the thing that dies in the end.
link |
And so it's what we have to confront.
link |
I mean, there's also joys that go along with having a body.
link |
Like if you didn't have a body, there'd be no sex.
link |
If you didn't have a body, there'd be no sort of physical excitement and so on.
link |
But somehow having a body is essentially a limitation that when you watch someone who's
link |
got one and is extraordinary at the way they use it, you can recognize how that limitation
link |
can be to some degree transcended.
link |
And that's what we can get when we watch Federer or some other great athlete sort of doing
link |
these things that transcend the limitations of their bodies.
link |
And that that's the kind of peak experience that we're capable of that could be a kind
link |
That's a very different story.
link |
And I think that's a livable story.
link |
And I don't know if it would have saved him, but I feel like I wish he'd developed that
link |
side of the story more.
link |
Can we talk about...
link |
And first of all, let me just comment that I deeply appreciate that you said you were
link |
going to say something.
link |
The fact that you're listening to me is amazing.
link |
Like that you care about other humans and I really appreciate that.
link |
We should be in this way listening to the world.
link |
So that's a meta comment about many of the things we're talking about.
link |
But you mentioned something about levitating and a task that is infinitely boring and contrasting
link |
that with essentially levitating on a task that is great, like the highest achievement
link |
of this physical limiting body in playing tennis.
link |
Now I often say this, I don't know where I heard David Foster Wallace say this, but he
link |
said that the key to life is to be unborable, that is the embodiment of this philosophy.
link |
And when people ask me for advice, young students, I don't find this interesting, I don't find
link |
this interesting, how do I find the thing I'm passionate for?
link |
This would be very interesting to explore because you kind of say that that may not
link |
be a realizable thing to do, which is to be unborable.
link |
So my advice usually is life is amazing, like you should be able to, you should strive to
link |
discover the joy, the levitation in everything.
link |
And the thing you get stuck on for a longer period of time, that might be the thing you
link |
should stick to, but everything should be full of joy.
link |
So that kind of cynicism of saying life is boring is a thing that will prevent you from
link |
discovering the thing that will give you deep meaning and joy, but you're saying being unborable
link |
is not actionable for a human being.
link |
So okay, excellent question, deep question.
link |
And you might think because of the title of the book that Bert and I wrote, All Things
link |
Shining, that I think all things are shining.
link |
But actually, I think it's an unachievable goal to be unborable.
link |
I do believe that you're right, that a lot of times when people are bored with something,
link |
it's because they haven't tried hard enough.
link |
And I do think quite a lot of what makes people bored with something is that they haven't
link |
paid attention well enough and that they haven't listened, as you were saying.
link |
So I do think there's something to that.
link |
I think that's a deep insight.
link |
On the other hand, the perfection of that insight is that nothing is ever anything less
link |
And I actually think that Dostoevsky and Melville both agree, but in very different ways, that
link |
life involves a wide range of moods and that all of them are important.
link |
It involves grief.
link |
I think when someone dies, it's appropriate to grieve.
link |
And it's not in the first instance joyful.
link |
It's related to joy because it makes the joys you feel when you feel them more intense.
link |
But it makes them more intense by putting you in the position of experiencing the opposite.
link |
And it's only because we're capable of a wide range of passionate responses to situations
link |
that I think the significances can be as meaningful as they are.
link |
So Melville, again, has this sort of interest.
link |
Let's just say the guilt and the grief in the brothers Karamazov.
link |
Alyosha loses his mentor, Father Zosima.
link |
It's super important that he's grieving.
link |
He has a religious conversion on the basis of grieving where he sees the deep beauty
link |
of everything that is, but it comes through the grief, not by avoiding the grief.
link |
And Melville says something like, Ishmael says something like, he says, I'm like a Catskill
link |
mountain eagle, the Catskills mountains nearby.
link |
He says, who's flying high above the earth, going over the peaks and down into the valleys.
link |
I have these ups and these downs, but they're all invested with a kind of significance.
link |
They all happen at an enormously high height because it's through the mountains that I'm
link |
And even when I'm down, it's a way of being up.
link |
But it's really down.
link |
It's just that it's a way of being up because it makes the ups even upper.
link |
Well, I guess then the perfectionism of that can be destructive.
link |
I tend to see, for example, grief, a loss of love as part of love in that it's a celebration
link |
of the richness of feelings you had when you had the love.
link |
So it's all part of the same experience, but if you turn it into an optimization problem
link |
where everything can be unboreable, then that can in itself be destructive.
link |
I heard this interview with David Foster Wallace on the internet where it's a video of him
link |
and there is like a foreign sounding reporter asking him questions.
link |
I think there's an accent of some sort, German, I think, something like that.
link |
And I don't know, it just painted a picture of such a human person.
link |
We were talking about listening.
link |
The interviewer, if I may say, wasn't a very good one in the beginning.
link |
So she kind of walked in doing the usual journalistic things of just kind of generic questions and
link |
just kind of asking very basic questions.
link |
But he brought out something in her over time.
link |
And he was so sensitive and so sensitive to her and also sensitive to being a thinking
link |
and acting human in this world that just painted such a beautiful picture that people should
link |
go definitely check out.
link |
It made me really sad that we don't get this kind of picture of other thinkers, all of
link |
the ones we've been talking about, just that almost this little accidental view of this
link |
It was a beautiful one and I guess there's not many like that even of him.
link |
No, I think he was more than his writing ability, which was extraordinary.
link |
He had developed a style that was, I think, unlike anyone else's style, was his sensitivity
link |
to other people and to sort of what he was there to pay attention to.
link |
In one of his essays, I think it's the one called An Incredibly Fun Thing I'll Never
link |
Do you know that one about cruise ships?
link |
I think he describes himself as this sort of roving eyeball that just sort of walks
link |
around the ship noticing things and he was incredibly good at that.
link |
But I also worry that that reflects something that you find in Ivan in The Brothers Karamazov.
link |
Ivan, I don't know if you remember this part, when he's away at school, at college as a
link |
young boy, he makes money by going around town to where tragic events have occurred.
link |
Someone just got run over by a carriage or something just happened.
link |
Being the first one there, he always knows somehow where these things are going to happen
link |
and writing about it, giving this really good description and then signing it eyewitness.
link |
It's as if Ivan's understanding of his life is that he was supposed to be a witness to
link |
He was supposed to see others but not get involved.
link |
He never is interested in trying to keep the bad things from happening.
link |
He just wants to report on them when he sees them.
link |
And I think that he's an incredibly isolated person, character, and it's his isolation
link |
from others, from the love of others and his inability, his desire not to love others because
link |
that attaches him to someone that I think is really at the ground of his condition.
link |
And I think that aim to be isolated, which many people have nowadays.
link |
You see it in The Underground Man too, just sort of taking yourself out of the world because
link |
you don't wanna have to take responsibility for being involved with others.
link |
I think that's a bad move and I do worry that maybe, I mean, I never knew David Foster Wallace,
link |
I have no right to comment on his life.
link |
But he portrays himself in that one episode as a person who does that and I think that's
link |
Yeah, there's some sense in which being sensitive to the world, like I find myself, the source
link |
of joy for me is just being really sensitive to the world, to experience.
link |
There's some way, it's quite brilliant what you're saying that that could be isolating.
link |
It's like Darwin studying a new kind of species on an island you don't want to interfere with.
link |
You find it so beautiful that you don't want to interfere with its beauty.
link |
So there is some sense in which that isolates you and then you find yourself deeply alone,
link |
away from the experiences that bring you joy.
link |
And that could be destructive.
link |
That's fascinating how that works and in his case, of course, some of it is just chemicals
link |
in his brain, but some of it is the path, his philosophy of life let him down.
link |
And that's the danger with Nietzsche too and gazing into the abyss.
link |
Your job is a difficult one because doing philosophy changes you and you may not know
link |
how it changes you until you're changed and you look in the mirror.
link |
You wrote a piece in MIT Tech Review saying that AI can't be an artist.
link |
Creativity is and always will be a human endeavor.
link |
You mentioned BERT and criticism of symbolic AI.
link |
Can you explain your view of criticizing the possible, the capacity for artistry and creativity
link |
in our robot friends?
link |
So to make the argument, you have to have in mind what counts as art, what counts as
link |
a creative artistic act.
link |
I take it that just doing something new isn't sufficient.
link |
We say that good art is original, but not everything that's never been done before is
link |
So there has to be more than just doing something new.
link |
It has to be somehow doing something new in a way that speaks to the audience or speaks
link |
to some portion of the audience at least.
link |
It has to be doing something new in such a way that some people who see or interact with
link |
it can see themselves anew in it.
link |
So I think that art is inherently a creative act, sorry, a kind of communicative act that
link |
it involves a relation with other people.
link |
So think about the conditions for that working.
link |
I talk in that article, I can't remember, something about new music.
link |
I think I don't talk about Stravinsky, but let's say Stravinsky.
link |
Stravinsky performs the Rite of Spring and there's riots.
link |
It is new and people hate it.
link |
It sounds like a cacophony.
link |
It's written according to principles that are not like the principles of music composition
link |
that people are familiar with.
link |
So in some ways it's a failed communicative act.
link |
But as Nietzsche says about his own stuff, we now can recognize that it wasn't a failed
link |
communicative act, it just hadn't reached its time yet.
link |
And now that way of composing music is like it's in Disney movies.
link |
It's so part of our musical palette that we don't have that response.
link |
It changed the way we understand what counts as good music.
link |
So that's a deep communicative act.
link |
It didn't perform its communication in that opening moment, but it did ultimately establish
link |
a new understanding for all of us of what counts as good art.
link |
And that's the kind of deep communication that I think good art can do.
link |
It can change our understanding of ourselves and of what a good manifestation of something
link |
of ourselves in a certain domain is.
link |
And you use the term socially embedded, that art is fundamentally socially embedded.
link |
And I really liked that term because I see like my love for artificial intelligence and
link |
the kind of system that we can bring to the world that could make for an interesting and
link |
more lively world and one that enriches human beings is one where the AI systems are deeply
link |
socially embedded.
link |
And that actually is in contrast to the way artificial intelligence have been talked about
link |
throughout its history and certainly now, both on the robotic side and the AI side,
link |
it's especially on the tech sector where the businesses around AI, they kind of want to
link |
create systems that are like servants to humans.
link |
And then humans do all the beautiful human messiness of where art will be part.
link |
I think that there is no reason why you can't integrate AI systems in the way you integrate
link |
new humans to the picture.
link |
There are just the full diversity and the flaws, all of that adds to the thing.
link |
Some people might say that AlphaZero is this system from DeepMind that was able to solve
link |
the game, it beat the best people in the world at the game of Go with no supervision from
link |
But more interestingly to me on the side of creativity, it was able to surprise a lot
link |
of grandmasters with the kind of moves that came up with.
link |
To me, that's not the creativity, the magic that's socially embedded that we're talking
link |
That is merely revealing the limitations of humans to discover.
link |
It's like to solve a particular aspect of a math problem.
link |
I think creativity is not just even socially embedded, it's the way you're saying is part
link |
of the communicative act, it's the interactive, it's the dance with the culture.
link |
And so it has to be like for AlphaZero to be creative, truly creative, it would have
link |
to be integrated in a way where it has a Twitter account and it becomes aware of the impact
link |
it has on the other grandmasters with the moves that's coming up.
link |
And one of the fascinating things about AlphaZero, which I just love so much is, I don't know
link |
if you're familiar with chess.
link |
So it does certain things that most chess players, even at the highest level don't do,
link |
which is it sacrifices pieces, it gives pieces away and then waits like 10 moves before it
link |
So it does, to me, that's beautiful.
link |
That's art if only AlphaZero understood the artistry of that, which is I'm going to mess
link |
with you psychologically because I'm going to do two things.
link |
One make you feel overconfident that you're doing well, but actually also once you realize
link |
you are playing AlphaZero that is much better than you, you're going to feel really nervous
link |
about what's on the way, like this is the calm before the storm.
link |
And that creates a beautiful psychological masterpiece of this chess game.
link |
If only AlphaZero was then messing with you additionally to that, like and was cognizant
link |
of us doing that, then it becomes art.
link |
And then it's integrated into society in that way.
link |
And I believe it doesn't have to actually have an understanding of the world in the
link |
way that humans have.
link |
It can have a different one.
link |
It can be like a child is clueless about so many aspects of the world and it's okay.
link |
And that's part of the magic of it, just being flawed, lacking understanding in all interesting
link |
kinds of ways, but interacting.
link |
And so to me it's possible to create art for AI, but exactly as you're saying in a deeply
link |
socially embedded way.
link |
Well, I think we agree, but let me just highlight the thing that makes me think that we agree,
link |
which is that I think for people, for a community to allow themselves to recognize in a certain
link |
kind of creative act, I'm thinking of Stravinsky here, but we could think of a chess thing,
link |
to recognize in a certain kind of creative act a new and admirable worthy way of thinking
link |
about what's significant in the situation, you have to believe that it wasn't random.
link |
You have to believe that Stravinsky wrote that way because he was receptive to what
link |
needed to be said now.
link |
And so you said, if only AlphaZero could do all this by virtue of recognizing that this
link |
was the thing that needed to be done, then it would be socially embedded in the right
link |
And I think I agree with that.
link |
First of all, it's possible to do in a constrained domain, a game playing domain, go or chess,
link |
go is more complicated than chess, but either one of them, because there really are only
link |
a finite range of possibilities if you make the game end at a certain point, it's a combinatorial
link |
problem in the end.
link |
Now, obviously, AlphaZero doesn't solve the problem in a combinatorial way.
link |
That would be take too much energy, you couldn't do it, it explodes the problem.
link |
So it does it in this other way that's interesting, this pattern recognition way, roughly.
link |
And in that context, it may well be that it can see, having had lots and lots of experience
link |
in the training stuff against itself or against another version of itself, it can see that
link |
the sacrifice here is gonna pay dividends down the road.
link |
See, I put that in quotation marks, that's to say it's got a high weight to this move
link |
here as a result of experience in the past where that move down the line led to this
link |
So in that finite context, I think the game players can trust it and they talk that way.
link |
It's got a kind of authority.
link |
They say, I've read some people who said about AlphaZero when it played Go, it's like it's
link |
playing from the future.
link |
It's making these moves that are just outlandish and there's a kind of brilliance to them that
link |
we can't really understand, we'll be catching up to it forever.
link |
I think in that context, it's mapped the domain and the domain is mappable because it's a
link |
combinatorial problem roughly.
link |
But in something like music or art of a nonfinite form, it feels to me like it's a little harder
link |
for me to understand what the analog of our trusting that Stravinsky has recognized something
link |
about us that demands that he write this way, that doesn't seem like a finite thing in quite
link |
So now we could ask the system, why did you do it?
link |
We could ask Stravinsky, why did you do it?
link |
And maybe it will have answers, but then it's involved in a kind of communicative act.
link |
And I think lots of times artists will often say, look, I can't communicate better than
link |
what I've done in the piece of work.
link |
That is the statement.
link |
Yeah, we humans aren't able to answer the why either, but I do think the question here
link |
is, well, first of all, language is finite, certainly when expressed through a tweet.
link |
So it is also a combinatorial problem.
link |
The question is how much more difficult it is than chess.
link |
And I think all the same ways that we see the solutions to chess is deeply surprising
link |
when it was first addressed with IBM D Blue and then with AlphaGo and AlphaGo Zero, AlphaZero.
link |
I think in that same way, language can be addressed and communication can be addressed.
link |
I don't see, having done this podcast, many reasons why everything I'm doing, especially
link |
as a digital being on the internet, can't be done by an AI system eventually.
link |
So I think we're being very human centric in thinking we're special.
link |
I think one of the hardest things is the physical space, actually operating touch and the magic
link |
of body language and the music of all of that, because it's so deeply integrated through
link |
the long evolutionary process of what it's like to be on earth.
link |
What is fundamentally different and AI can catch up on is the way we apply our evolutionary
link |
history on the way we act on the internet, on the way we act online.
link |
And as more and more of the world becomes digital, you're now operating in a space where
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AI is behind much less so, like we're both starting at zero.
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I think that's super interesting.
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Do you know this, do you know this author, Brian Christian, is that someone you've ever
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That sounds familiar.
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He's a guy who competed in the, what is it called?
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The Loebner Competition.
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The Loebner Prize.
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Yeah, the Turing Test thing.
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And I'll just tell you the story, but I think it's directly related to the last thing you
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said about where we're starting in the same place.
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He competed in this competition, but not, he didn't enter a program that was supposed
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to try to pass the Turing Test.
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The Turing Test, there's three people, there's the judge, there's the program, and then there's
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someone who's a human, the way they do it.
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And the judge has got to figure out by asking questions, which is the computer and which
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So little known fact, there's two prizes in that competition.
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There's the most human computer prize, that's the computer that wins the most.
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And then there's the most human human prize.
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And he competed for the most human human prize, and he won it, he kept winning it.
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And so he tried to think about what it is that you have to be able to do in order to
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convince judges that you're human instead of a computer.
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And that's an interesting question, I think.
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And what he came to, my takeaway from his version of this story is that it is true that
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computers are winning these contests more and more as technology progresses.
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But there's two possible explanations for that.
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One is that the computers are becoming more human, and the other is that the humans are
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becoming more like computers.
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And he says, actually, the more we live our lives in this technological world where we
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have to moderate our behavior so that it's readable by something that's effectively a
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computer, the more we become like that.
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And he says, it happens even when you're not interacting with a computer.
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He says, have you ever been on the phone with a call center?
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And they're going through their script, and that's what they've got to do.
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They've got to go through their script because that's how they keep their job.
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And they ask you this question, you've got to answer it.
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And it's as if you're no longer interacting with a person, even though it's a person,
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because they've so given up everything that's involved normally with being able to make
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judgments and decisions and act in situations and take responsibility.
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And so I think that's the other side of it.
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It is true that technology is amazing and can solve huge ranges of problems and do fantastic
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But it's also true that we're changing ourselves in response to it.
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And the one thing I'm worried about is that we're changing ourselves in such a way that
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the norms for what we're aiming at are being changed to move in the direction of this sort
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of efficiently and in an optimized way solving a problem and move away from this other kind
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of thing that we were calling aliveness or significance.
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And so that's the other side of the story.
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And that's the worry.
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But it's very possible that there is, for you and I, the ancient dinosaurs, we may not
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see the aliveness in TikTok, the aliveness in the digital space, that you see it as us
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being dragged into this over optimized world, but that may be this is in fact, it is a world
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that opens up opportunities to truly experience life.
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And there's interesting to think about all the people growing up now, who their early
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experience of life is always mediated through a digital device, not always, but more and
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more often mediated through that device, and how we're both evolving, the technology is
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evolving and the humans are evolving to then maybe open a door to a whole world where the
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humans and the technology or AI systems are interacting as equals.
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So now I'm going to agree with you.
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You might be surprised that I'm going to agree with you, but I think that's exactly right.
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I don't want to be the person who's saying our job is to resist all of this stuff.
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I don't want to be a Luddite.
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That's not my goal.
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The goal is to point out that in the supreme danger lies the saving power.
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The point is to get in the right relation to that understanding of what we are.
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That allows us to find the joy in it.
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And I think that's a hard thing to do.
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It's hard to understand even what we're supposed to be doing when we do it.
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Maybe I, more than you, am not of the right generation to be able to do that.
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But I do think that's got to be the move.
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The move is not to resist it.
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It's not a nostalgic move.
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It's an attempt to push people to get in the relation to it that's not the relation of
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it controlling you and depriving you of stuff, but of your recognizing some great joy that
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can be found in it.
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When I interact with legged robots, I see there's magic there.
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And I just feel like the person who hears the music when others don't.
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And I don't know what that is.
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And I'd love to explore that.
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Because it's almost like the future talking.
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And I'm trying to hear what it's saying.
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Is this a dangerous world or is this a beautiful world?
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Well, I can certainly understand your enthusiasm for that.
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Those used to be things that I found overwhelmingly exciting.
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And I'm not sort of closed off from that anymore.
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I mean, I'm not now closed off from that even though my views are changed and I don't work
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But I think it's interesting to figure out what's at the ground of that response.
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We talked about meaning quite a bit throughout in a secular age, but let me ask you the big
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ridiculous question, almost too big.
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What is the meaning of this thing we got going on?
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What is the meaning of life?
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You're saving the softball for the end, is that it?
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I don't know what the meaning of life is.
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I think there's something that characterizes us that's not the thing that people normally
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think characterizes us.
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The traditional thing to say and the philosophical tradition, even in the AI tradition, which
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is a kind of manifestation of philosophy from Plato forward.
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The traditional thing to say is that what characterizes us is our rationality, that
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we're intelligent beings, that we're the ones that think.
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And I think that's certainly part of what characterizes us.
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But I think there's more to it too.
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I think we're capable of experiencing simultaneously the complete and utter ungroundedness of everything
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that's meaningful in our existence and also the real significance of it.
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And that sounds like a contradiction.
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How could it really be significant and not be based on anything?
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But I think that's the contradiction that somehow characterizes us.
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And I think that we're the being that sort of has to hold that weird mystery before us
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and live in the light of it.
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That's the thing that I think is really at our core.
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And so how do we do that?
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I will say this one thing.
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And I learned it from a philosopher, from a guy named Albert Borgmann, who's a German
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philosopher who lives in Montana now, taught in Montana for his whole career.
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And I say this to my students at Harvard now.
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He said, this is the way that I think about my life, and I hope you'll think about your
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He said, you should think about your life hoping that there will be many moments in
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it about which you can say, there's no place I'd rather be, there's no thing I'd rather
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be doing, there's nobody I'd rather be with, and this I will remember well.
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And I think if you can aim to fill your life with moments like that, it will be a meaningful
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I don't know if that's the meaning of life, but I think if you can hold that before you,
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it'll help to clarify this mystery and this sort of bizarre situation in which we find
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Sean, this conversation was incredible, and those four requirements have certainly been
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This was a magical moment in that way, and I will remember it well.
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Thank you so much.
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It's an honor that you spend your valuable time with me.
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Thank you for having me, Lex.
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I really, really enjoyed it.
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Thanks for listening to this conversation with Sean Kelly.
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To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.
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And now, let me leave you with some words from Albert Camus.
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In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer.
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Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.