back to indexCarl Hart: Heroin, Cocaine, MDMA, Alcohol & the Role of Drugs in Society | Lex Fridman Podcast #233
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The following is a conversation with Carl Hart,
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department chair and professor of psychology
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at Columbia University.
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He's the author of several books on the topic of drugs,
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including his most recent, called Drug Use for Grownups,
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that challenges us to, quote,
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use empirical evidence to guide public policy
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even if it makes us uncomfortable.
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His research on drugs, including hard drugs,
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like heroin and cocaine, challenges much of what we think
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we know about drugs and their role in society.
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His main thesis is that drug addiction
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has less to do with the drugs themselves
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and more to do with cooccurring psychiatric disorders,
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such as depression and schizophrenia,
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and socioeconomic factors, such as unemployment,
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underemployment, and resource deprivation
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within the community.
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In addition, he believes that we should legalize all drugs
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so that if people choose to use them,
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they could do so responsibly and openly
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and get help if needed in a controlled, safe environment.
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His ideas are controversial,
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but are fundamentally grounded in empirical data
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and rigorous scientific studies.
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I don't know if his conclusions are right,
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but they are at least worth thinking about.
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So I ask that you consider these ideas with an open mind
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and as always, make sure you exercise
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your critical thinking skills in making decisions
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about substances you put in your body.
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You are a free thinking being,
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the main character, if you will,
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the hero in a story that's being written by you.
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So at the end of the day,
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you are responsible for the choices you make.
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This is the Lex Friedman podcast.
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To support it, please check out our sponsors
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in the description.
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And now, here's my conversation with Carl Hart.
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I think it is bold and powerful to admit
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to using in your private life
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the drugs that you study in your research,
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including heroin and cocaine.
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So let me ask, what is the experience of taking heroin like?
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What happens to the body?
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What happens to the mind when you take it?
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Well, you know, I take MDMA, cannabis,
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and all the rest of these drugs too.
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I've tried those drugs.
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The experience in the body and the mind,
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I don't really know what people wanna know
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It's like saying, what is the experience
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of having an orgasm in the body and the mind?
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Or some other sort of event that you really enjoy.
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So I don't really know what people...
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Is that what poetry is for,
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for describing these kinds of experiences?
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I mean, I guess, given MDMA, given psilocybin,
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in the full context of that,
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maybe it's more useful to say,
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what are the differences in experiences
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that your mind goes through?
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Like chemically, biologically.
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So like keeping it strictly to sort of the biology of it
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versus the full environmental human experience.
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Yeah, see, this is a mistake that people make all the time.
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They try to act as if biology
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is the only determinant of drug effects.
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And that's just not how it works.
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You need the environment.
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You need the cage, as they say.
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If you don't have the cage,
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you don't get the full extent of the effects.
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And so like you can take MDMA and have an awful time.
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You can have a time in which you get paranoid and so forth.
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And then you can take that drug under the right conditions
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and it just be like one of the best moments you've ever had.
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It certainly enhanced a number of my relationships.
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But I've also had some times with MDMA
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that haven't been so lovely.
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When the people who you are hanging out with,
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you don't know them, you're distrustful
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and all of those kinds of things.
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So it's important to put context in it.
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Now we can talk about drugs at a biochemical level,
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at a biological level.
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And we kind of do that in this country
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with this fascination with neuroscience.
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And that's an inappropriate kind of fascination
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in the way we talk about it.
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So we can talk about opioids
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and then we can talk about endogenous opioid system
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We can talk about dopamine
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and other sort of monoamine transmitters
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and what opioids are doing to them.
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And we can do the same thing with MDMA.
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And we won't be any closer to understanding
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the sort of experience that is induced by these drugs.
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Certainly the experience that we all seek.
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You know what I'm saying?
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So getting a positive experience
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or getting a negative experience
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is strongly defined by the environment.
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Strongly dependent upon it.
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But the environment is a very,
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it's a short word that can describe a lot of things.
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So would you say the environment is important
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or the people where you are currently in your life?
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Or is it also dependent on the full trajectory
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of your psychology of your life experiences
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of your parents or the people you came up with
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of the trauma you've experienced
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of the hopes and dreams that were crushed
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or not or the opposite or the success levels
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or all those things.
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Like what are the interesting sort of landscape
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of experiences that contribute to how you actually feel
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when you take a drug?
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So all of those things are important.
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But you know, like if someone had trauma in childhood
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and they did the work and they dealt with it
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that's not so important in this case.
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But if they didn't deal with it
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and that trauma is being triggered in that event
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in that moment, then it's important.
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But let's just take somebody like me.
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I'll be 55 this month actually.
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And you know, I've done a lot of work
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in terms of figuring out who I am
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and I'm comfortable with myself.
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And I know how to set limits for whatever it is I'm doing.
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And so I know I need to work out.
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I know I need to eat well.
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I know I need to sleep well.
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I know I need to be in an environment
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with people within my trust.
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And then if all of those things are met,
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oh, it's likely to be a good time.
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You know what I'm saying?
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But if I haven't slept, if I haven't worked out,
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if I don't feel good, it won't be a good time.
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But I try and be responsible
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and take care of my eating habits, sleeping habits,
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make sure my responsibilities are taken care of.
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And so when I'm in that moment, I just enjoy that moment.
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I'm not thinking about a bill that I didn't pay.
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I'm not thinking about, oh, I forgot to do this for my kid.
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I'm not thinking about that
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because all of those things are taken care of.
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If they're not taken care of, it will impact the experience
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and it may negatively impact the experience.
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Well, that is the counterintuitive,
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even controversial finding from your recent book.
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So we should kind of, I know it seems obvious to you,
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but I think a lot of people hearing this
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would think it's quite non obvious.
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So in your new book, Drug Use for Grownups,
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you write for the finding section.
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I discovered that the predominant effects produced
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by the drugs discussed in this book are positive.
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It didn't matter whether the drug in question was cannabis,
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cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine, or psilocybin.
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Overwhelmingly, consumers expressed feeling more altruistic,
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empathetic, euphoric, focused, grateful, and tranquil.
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They also experienced enhanced social interactions,
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a great sense of purpose and meaning,
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and increased sexual intimacy and performance.
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This constellation of findings
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challenged my original beliefs about drugs and their effects.
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I had been indoctrinated to be biased
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toward the negative effects of drug use.
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But over the past two plus decades,
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I had gained a deeper, more nuanced understanding.
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These words are very counterintuitive to a lot of people.
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I think like you also mentioned in the book and elsewhere,
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people have come around to maybe psilocybin
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being one such drug, maybe cannabis being one such drug,
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but you also mentioned other drugs
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like cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine.
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Can you just linger on this point?
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How do we get the positive effects of those drugs
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and why in the media,
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and the general conception we have of these drugs
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is that they were going to make a bad life worse
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or ruin a good life?
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Well, so your first question was,
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how do we harness the positive effects?
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How do we increase the likelihood
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of getting the positive effects?
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Again, like I said,
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we wanna make sure that people are responsible
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and they've handled their responsibilities,
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make sure they eat well, sleep well, exercise,
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all of those sorts of things play an important role.
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And also if they know exactly what they're getting
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and then they're not paranoid about,
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it's something contaminated in some adulterant in my drug.
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So you wanna make sure you know exactly what you have.
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Once you satisfy those kinds of things,
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you understand the dose and potency,
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you understand all of those things
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to decrease any sort of anxiety you might have
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about the substance itself, it increases the likelihood
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that you will have a better time.
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So anxiety is a big one, you need to remove the anxiety.
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Anxiety is critical, it's huge.
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Many of the negative effects that we see with drugs
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have to do with anxiety
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and not necessarily anxiety because a drug induced it,
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it's the anxiety that the situation induced a lot of times.
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And then you ask like,
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well, why does this sound counterintuitive?
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Why does the media report differently?
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Well, because there's money in reporting
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the negative effects almost exclusively.
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Think about writing a newspaper article.
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It's really easy to get the population all ginned up
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about something like an opioid crisis, overdoses,
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and you don't even have to tell people
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how to keep people safe if you're talking about overdose.
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You don't even have to say why people are dying
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Like overdoses in our country happen largely
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because people get contaminated drugs,
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because people are combining sedatives
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and they don't know that this enhances
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the respiratory depressing effects of drugs.
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But when you read these newspaper articles,
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they don't say this.
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They don't say how to keep people safe.
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All they do is frighten the population.
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There's money in that.
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And then we think about people who write TV shows,
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the people who write movies.
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Most of the stuff written about drugs is just bullshit.
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I think about, I love going to watch comedians
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and the comedians when they talk about drugs,
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again, most of the things that they say about drugs
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I mean, you can say the stupidest things about drugs
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You can write a movie and you don't even have
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to develop your characters.
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If you throw drugs into the mix, you say,
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oh, he's a drug dealer.
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You don't have to say anything
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about that person's background
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or about that person being developed as a character
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because the population think they know.
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And the writer is lazy
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and does not do any sort of development.
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Just think about any more.
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Oh, let's think about the Sopranos, for example.
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They have a new program coming out.
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So let's think about them for a second.
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The Sopranos is a show in which the lead character,
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Tony, kills people for a living.
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That's what he does, right?
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This character actually made a sympathetic for him
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when he is besmirching and denigrating his nephew,
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Christopher, for using a drug.
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And we feel sympathy for Tony, the character,
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who just killed somebody, who is a horrible person,
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but being a drug user is a worse person.
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That's what the show wants us to believe.
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Tony's a racist, murderer, all of these things,
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but we feel sympathy for him.
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But we don't feel sympathy for anyone who uses drugs.
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That's some crazy shit.
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I mean, and the American public buys into it.
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That is, that's wild to me,
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and that we all bought into this crap.
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And that's what we do in damn near everything
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that's in film, on television.
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And it's like, what's wrong with you people?
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So why aren't there not more stories
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of grownups using drugs?
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The full spectrum of drugs that we're talking about.
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So we talked offline about Joe Rogan.
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He's somebody who started smoking weed later in life,
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which is an interesting story.
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Like when he's already very successful
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and he has a very interesting way
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of describing his experience with weed,
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that it was like enhancing just productivity.
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It actually, I think he says,
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like it increases anxiety a little bit
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in a way that was productive, like paranoia, not anxiety.
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And so that's an interesting story of an adult
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talking about the use of weed for productivity purposes.
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But you don't get those stories very often.
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People are afraid that they will be belittled, dismissed,
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all of these things, that's a drug addict
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or some negative thing, but cannabis is lightweight.
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Come on, you can admit cannabis these days.
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And the fact that I don't know when Joe started,
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but if he did start later in life, that's cool.
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I mean, you are mature, developed,
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you have developed some responsibility skills,
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all of these kinds of things.
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This is a good thing.
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You don't want people to engage in any kind of behaviors
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when they're young and immature
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that might put them in harm's way.
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And so we want people to be developed at least.
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I mean, whether it's being in a relationship with a partner
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or whether it's driving an automobile,
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all of these things that can be potentially harmful,
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but extremely beneficial
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if you are responsible enough to handle them.
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You want people to be mature, so that's a good thing.
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So how are you supposed to, like somebody like me,
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somebody like Joe, how are you supposed to understand
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what the dangers are, what the negative effects are?
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So you said automobile, relationships.
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I think I have a reasonably, it's crappy,
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but reasonable understanding of all the troubles
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I can get with in relationships and what things to avoid.
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Same thing with driving a car.
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I'm in the dark in terms of what are the things
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to be careful about, what to avoid with drug use
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when we're talking about the heavy drugs.
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Have you ever drank alcohol?
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I know, I drank a lot.
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But I understand that because culturally I came up,
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I was taught a lot of like, this is what you don't do
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and this is what you do.
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This is when you drink a lot.
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I mean, you see the effects, you see the,
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there's a lot of negative examples,
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there's positive examples of social stimulant.
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There's examples of great artists using alcohol
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to sort of, I don't know, to help be the catalyst
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for that magic moment, for all of that.
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I have some examples now, especially in America,
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the same with weed, more and more you're starting
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to get a lot of stories of psychedelics of different kinds.
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There's psilocybin where you have mushrooms
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or even MDMA used sort of positively.
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There's kind of like negative stories from the past
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about acid, about LSD being used,
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ultimately for productive ends,
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but it destroyed the person.
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That's kind of how the story goes.
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It was like a trade off.
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You take, it's like, what is it?
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Robert Johnson sold his soul to the devil to learn guitar.
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Like it's a trade off.
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You can take the drug, you're gonna create some good stuff,
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but you have to pay for it.
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Those are the stories.
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That's some bullshit we tell children, come on.
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That's exactly right.
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You're exactly right.
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These fairy tales, these cautionary tales
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that we tell people, we have to grow up.
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That's what the book is about, drug use for grownups.
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We tell people, Pinocchio, if you lie, your nose grow.
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Who believes that?
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Who believes that there are fairy tales?
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But that's exactly what these stories are.
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They're in the same vein as those kind of stories,
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Like you said, when you were learning about alcohol,
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you were told what to do, what not to do, so forth.
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The same can be true with MDMA, with cocaine, with heroin.
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The same is true, because there are some times
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when there are some potential dangers that you should avoid.
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And I wrote about some of them,
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certainly in my work, just throughout all of my writings.
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I talk about those kinds of things
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and other people talk about these things.
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The problem is, is that we're getting our education
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from bullshit sources, from people who believe
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in this kind of Pinocchio thing.
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And it just does not fit with the evidence.
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And the evidence we all publish in the scientific literature,
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all these things that I'm saying,
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it's there in the literature.
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I mean, at a place like Columbia,
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we give these drugs thousands of doses every year.
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Do you think we would be doing this?
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And we do this with research grants
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that's funded by the public, taxpayers dollars.
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Do you think we would be allowed to do this
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if these drugs were so dangerous?
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It's just nonsense.
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I mean, and the drugs we're talking about,
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they are all approved for medical use
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somewhere in the world.
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And the studies you conduct are basically
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asking what kinds of questions.
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So you take the full range of drugs you're talking about
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from marijuana to psilocybin to MDMA to cocaine and heroin.
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What is the study looking at?
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Like what the actual experience with the positive
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and negative effects of the experience on the drug are
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in the control conditions.
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Yeah, so we did these kinds of experiments with alcohol,
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nicotine, all these drugs in order to have
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an empirical database to tell people
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exactly what these drugs do and what they don't do.
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The conditions under which the drugs
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will produce positive effects,
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the conditions under which the drugs were more likely
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to produce negative effects.
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All of this information is important for society to know.
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And we do know, and that's why we're collecting the data.
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We're collecting the data to help us with treatment
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if someone is having problems with these data.
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Hopefully we'll understand more about how to help them
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deal with their problems based on some of the research
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So what kind of negative effects are we looking out for?
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Like what are the properties of drugs
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we should be careful about?
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Is it addictive properties?
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How addictive it is, how destructive or painful,
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whatever the withdrawal processes,
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what kind of things are we looking out for?
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Yeah, those are certain kind of questions
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we certainly have asked because like something like
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crack cocaine versus alcohol or heroin
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when it comes to withdrawal of physical dependence.
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Like cocaine has a very limited sort of withdrawal symptoms.
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I mean, it's hard to see.
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Same is true with methamphetamine.
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But with heroin, you certainly can see a withdrawal syndrome
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that's unpleasant, but with alcohol that withdrawal
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can actually kill you.
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So heroin is unpleasant and not lovely,
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but with alcohol withdrawal, that's the one,
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that's the most dangerous.
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I mean, all of these kind of questions
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we wanna know answers to.
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And so when we think about heroin or some other drugs
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and you say like, what kind of negative effects?
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Negative effects, we don't talk about much in the society.
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The main thing that really concerns me
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about like heroin use really is constipation.
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So if people are using heroin on a regular basis
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and then they have a sort of slowing of their gut modality,
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they're likely to increase constipation and that's not good.
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I mean, for your general health,
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but we never talk about that in this society.
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And that's probably the most important thing
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aside from the fact that people get contaminated street drugs
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and that sort of stuff and increase the likelihood
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of maybe dying from some contaminant
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or people who are inexperienced
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and they're mixing heroin with other sedatives.
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That's not good, but the constipation is a huge one.
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And then other sort of drugs, negative effects
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like the amphetamines, all of the amphetamines,
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they disrupt sleep, food intake,
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all of these things are so critical
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for sustaining human life, but we never talk about that
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because it's not as sexy as this nonsense
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that people write about like addiction.
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Addiction has almost nothing to do
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with the drugs themselves.
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And I make that comment because the vast majority of users
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for any drug never become addicted.
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And so if the vast majority of users don't become addicted,
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then you have to move beyond the drug
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when you're talking about the phenomenon interest
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in this case, addiction.
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And so when we think about addiction,
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it has much more to do with our psychosocial environment
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than the drug itself, but that's not sexy.
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So addiction is even the property of the environment,
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not a property, a result of the environment.
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It certainly can be.
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There are people who are suffering
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from cooccurring mental illness like depression, anxiety.
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I mean, that's within the person, of course,
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and that increases the likelihood for addiction.
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So that's not so much the environment,
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but there are people who, for example,
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they have chronic unrealistic expectations heaped on them.
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And those people are more likely
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to have some problems with drugs.
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There are people who are just immature,
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not having developed responsibility skills.
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They are likely to have some problems
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if they engage in some of these behaviors.
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There are people who lost their jobs, COVID,
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factories went away, a wide range of things.
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And those people used to have standing in their community.
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Now they have none.
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Those people might be susceptible
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to having a drug related problem if they indulge.
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All of these kinds of issues are far more important
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than the drug itself.
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And so they could seek escape in a particular drug.
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I mean, there is a biochemical thing
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to each of these drugs,
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and some pull you in harder than others
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when you need the escape, right?
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When you're not doing well in life.
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What evidence you have for that bullshit?
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Yeah, because there is none.
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There is absolutely none.
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I mean, people say stuff like that,
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and that's the problem.
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That's precisely the problem.
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See, I'm operating from limited personal evidence.
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Well, this is a problem though,
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but we have a scientific database.
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We don't need personal evidence for this.
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We have, in my book, I try to go through some of the science
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so people could understand.
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It's like when you have a math problem,
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you don't want people saying,
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well, you know, I feel like this.
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Fuck what you feel.
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What does the data say?
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So one of the problems with the data,
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so one data is there's the studies that you're doing,
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this is excellent research work,
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but there's some of the drugs that are illegal.
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Yes. And some are legal.
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it's unfortunate that some of the drugs are illegal
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or whatever you believe,
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but there's not enough of a data set of public
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That's like you got in the wild data set.
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It'd be nice to do, you know, thousands of people
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and see from all the different kinds of environments
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and all that kind of stuff to get an understanding.
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I think we have a substantial database,
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but people just ignore it.
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That said, let me ask you the question of legalization.
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So should, in your view, all drugs be legalized?
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The drugs that people seek
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certainly should be legally regulated
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and available to adults.
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So when I say the drugs people seek,
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like cannabis, MDMA, cocaine, heroin,
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those drugs certainly should be available.
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And some of the psychedelics that people seek.
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Now, the thing about it is that some people think that,
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oh, it will be a free fall.
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These drugs are available to everyone.
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I mean, there will be age requirements
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and maybe other requirements,
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but they should be available.
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And we should also do like what we do with alcohol.
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We can put enough alcohol in a bottle to kill you,
link |
So we regulate it such that the amount that's in the bottle
link |
enhances the safety and minimizes the potential harms.
link |
We can do the same thing with these other drugs.
link |
And we can also say, okay,
link |
we won't be selling intravenous preparations
link |
of any of these drugs.
link |
The drugs that the routes of administration will be oral
link |
and I don't know, let's say intranasal.
link |
Again, routes of administration,
link |
the dose that you have in each unit,
link |
all can minimize harm based on how you do these things.
link |
And we can do that.
link |
We have the technology, we have the knowhow.
link |
So you're actually making me think
link |
about alcohol a little bit.
link |
So if I were, say the drugs become legalized
link |
in the way you're describing,
link |
and me, Lex, wanted to, as an adult,
link |
explore some of these drugs,
link |
what are some procedures do you think
link |
for sort of safe, positive exploration of those drugs?
link |
The reason I say I'm thinking about alcohol
link |
because I don't think,
link |
besides not putting enough alcohol in a bottle to kill you,
link |
I don't think anyone ever gave me specific instructions.
link |
I think it's kind of word of mouth
link |
and examples of people doing the wrong thing.
link |
You kind of get it through osmosis that way.
link |
Is that basically what we would do,
link |
this kind of free exploration of use?
link |
No, we have to change our education about these things.
link |
I mean, let's just take a drug like cocaine.
link |
Cocaine's a stimulant.
link |
You want to make sure people understand
link |
that they shouldn't be taking cocaine near bedtime.
link |
You know, they need to get a certain amount of hours of sleep
link |
and they need to get up in the morning.
link |
Cocaine probably isn't a drug for you at night.
link |
Certainly not amphetamines at night for most people.
link |
And also, if you want to make sure that you,
link |
they need to understand that cocaine
link |
can also disrupt your food intake.
link |
Not as much as the amphetamines,
link |
but all of these kinds of things people need to know
link |
so they can have proper nutrition
link |
and they can time their drug use
link |
around these other important functions
link |
that's the same human life.
link |
So we have to make sure that we educate people.
link |
We can't just throw people in a while.
link |
I gotta tell you, I mean, for me,
link |
and even given your book and for people listening to this,
link |
it's still tough to hear that the thing
link |
we should be concerned about with cocaine
link |
is the same as with caffeine.
link |
Don't take it before bed.
link |
And the thing we should be concerned with heroin
link |
But the questions I keep wanting to ask you,
link |
I should be asking the same things of alcohol,
link |
but when you're not doing well psychologically
link |
in the ways you describe,
link |
when the environment is not right,
link |
there's some aspect in which saying that drugs
link |
can be used responsibly and effectively
link |
and mostly positive can give those folks a pass
link |
to use it instead of working on themselves
link |
and fixing their environment first.
link |
I don't know, what do you want me to say to that?
link |
I mean, they have access to alcohol,
link |
they have access to the...
link |
You know, we live in this country called the United States
link |
where our Declaration of Independence says
link |
that we are free to live like we wanna live
link |
so long as we don't disrupt other people
link |
from doing the same.
link |
But it's remarkable to me
link |
how we try to control the behaviors of other people.
link |
That's just remarkable.
link |
And that's partially what your book is about.
link |
I mean, it's not just about drugs, it's about freedom.
link |
That's the bigger issue that we can't get to.
link |
It's like this issue of freedom
link |
and freedom comes with a tremendous amount
link |
of responsibility.
link |
I am responsible for my neighbors, my brothers.
link |
I mean, I can't impede their freedoms.
link |
Like some people think that their freedom
link |
supersedes everybody else's freedoms.
link |
And that's what I'm trying to remind people in this book.
link |
I am responsible to you as a citizen
link |
and we're in this together.
link |
And I tried to make that point in the book
link |
and people have conveniently ignored things like that.
link |
Do you think the war on drugs
link |
has done more positive or negative for the world?
link |
Depends on which world you live in.
link |
The war on drugs has been hugely beneficial
link |
to law enforcement, to the media,
link |
to people who make bullshit TV shows.
link |
The Sopranos, The Wire, all of those shows,
link |
they benefit from this kind of nonsense.
link |
Who else have benefited?
link |
People who provide treatment,
link |
many of them benefit from the war on drugs.
link |
The folks who do urine testing for drugs,
link |
they've all benefited.
link |
They're making mad money.
link |
People who run prisons,
link |
the phone companies who charge the prisoners,
link |
the people who run the hotels that are around the prisons
link |
where people's family have to come and stay,
link |
the restaurants, they are making out like bandits.
link |
But many of us are getting screwed as a society.
link |
In general, we're getting screwed,
link |
but there are people who are just benefiting handsomely.
link |
That's why it continues.
link |
Politicians benefit.
link |
I mean, whether you're Democrat or Republican,
link |
you have the same stance on drugs anyway,
link |
so they all benefit from this.
link |
So many questions I want to ask you,
link |
because you're challenging a lot of beliefs
link |
that people have about drugs, about society in general.
link |
So it's difficult for me to ask the right questions here.
link |
If you were with a sort of a snap of a finger,
link |
change the world, what from a policy perspective would you,
link |
and from just a, I don't know, human to human perspective,
link |
what would you like to see in the United States of America
link |
in terms of if that fixes some of the problems
link |
we're discussing here?
link |
First of all, we wouldn't be arresting anybody
link |
for drugs anymore.
link |
That would go away.
link |
The folks who are in prison for drugs, that would go away.
link |
Their records would be expunged, that would just go away.
link |
And then we work on a system to make sure
link |
that responsible adults can legally obtain these substances
link |
and we'll have a corresponding educational system
link |
to teach people how to do this.
link |
That's where I would start initially.
link |
Yeah, the arresting for drug use
link |
or anything drug related is absurd,
link |
especially in the context of hard destructive alcohol
link |
Alcohol can be destructive to some people,
link |
but alcohol also is a hugely beneficial drug.
link |
To be honest, which I couldn't have gotten through
link |
many of the sort of receptions and functions
link |
I had to go through as the chair of the department
link |
Yeah, you have a line I really liked.
link |
The vast amount of predictably favorable drug effects
link |
intrigued me, so much so that I expanded my own drug use
link |
to take advantage of the wide array
link |
of beneficial outcome specific drugs can offer.
link |
The part that entertained me was this.
link |
To put this in personal terms,
link |
my position as department chairman from 2016 to 2019
link |
was far more detrimental to my health
link |
than my drug use ever was.
link |
I mean, there is a standard we're treating drugs,
link |
certain kinds of drugs that's completely different
link |
than the standard we're treating everything else
link |
Yeah, I mean, it's almost difficult to snap out of it
link |
as I'm listening to you and reading your work.
link |
It's difficult because it's like,
link |
why is everybody living this idea that certain drugs
link |
are so horribly destructive and others are not?
link |
And we just kind of fix that idea.
link |
And then there's this narrative,
link |
I hate to be so cynical to think that there is just
link |
like a system that just propagates narratives.
link |
I always kind of think that truth wins out.
link |
Truth is the best narrative.
link |
I believe that too.
link |
Obviously, that's why I'm out here and putting,
link |
subjecting myself to this sort of criticism and so forth,
link |
but because I believe that truth ultimately wins out,
link |
but I might be wrong,
link |
but I have to live my life like it's true.
link |
Otherwise, then I have no hope, then why be here?
link |
Well, kind of, if you can steal man
link |
or at least show respect to a criticism,
link |
you've I'm sure received quite a bit of criticism
link |
I've heard quite a bit of BS criticisms,
link |
sort of ignorant stuff that don't actually pay attention
link |
to your work, but is there some serious,
link |
like is there some pushback that makes you think twice?
link |
People say like, I'm presenting a too rosy picture of drugs.
link |
I don't wanna do that.
link |
I don't want people to think that I'm not aware of the
link |
potential negative effects of any activity,
link |
including drug use.
link |
And so I do acknowledge that there are potential harms
link |
associated with drugs.
link |
I acknowledge that in the book,
link |
but the fact remains the beneficial effects far outweigh
link |
the potential harmful effects.
link |
And we have technology information to help people
link |
to minimize the likelihood of negative effects.
link |
But this sort of approach that we have where we say
link |
we're only exclusively presenting the harmful effects
link |
and that should make people, keep people safe.
link |
I just have a problem with that.
link |
But I certainly, I take the point that people say
link |
there are negative effects.
link |
Absolutely, I absolutely agree.
link |
What do you, if I can just talk about specific drugs,
link |
what's the difference between opioids and benzos,
link |
for example, specifically, I mean,
link |
these are drugs that you often read about
link |
being misused at scale.
link |
I mean, the misuse is the problem, right?
link |
No matter what the drug is.
link |
And that's actually what you're pushing for is education
link |
and it should be legal and should be good.
link |
So people should know what's the difference in proper use,
link |
positive use and misuse.
link |
I mean, one public figure who has been going through this
link |
is Jordan Peterson, he's been public about his struggle
link |
of getting off benzos, the withdrawal he's going through.
link |
I mean, what are your thoughts about the misuse of benzos
link |
or opioids and so on, the epidemic that people talk about?
link |
Yeah, I don't know Jordan's specific case,
link |
but certainly with benzodiazepines in general,
link |
we talked about withdrawal earlier.
link |
When I said that with alcohol withdrawal, you can die.
link |
So benzos and alcohol, they're closely related.
link |
So benzo withdrawal too can kill you just like alcohol.
link |
So when we think about the effects
link |
that benzodiazepines produce,
link |
think about the effects that alcohol produce,
link |
they're comparable or similar.
link |
And so I know that it's a difficult one to wean yourself off
link |
if you develop the dependence,
link |
but we have protocols for that and I hope he's okay.
link |
It's interesting you say we have protocols for that,
link |
but from my understanding was that
link |
like the protocols aren't standardized.
link |
It feels like a lot of doctors aren't as helpful
link |
as they could be in this process.
link |
Like it's a bit of a mess.
link |
Certainly with withdrawal,
link |
they're more standardized than anything.
link |
So like if someone is going through alcohol withdrawal,
link |
there is a standard protocol that most physicians
link |
in this business, they follow.
link |
The same is true with a benzo withdrawal.
link |
But the thing where it gets murky
link |
is when they're treating addiction itself.
link |
So when you're thinking about the substance use disorder
link |
in the DSM, not just withdrawal, but the entire addiction,
link |
that's where you have this sort of a divergence
link |
or diversity in terms of approaches.
link |
And many of those approaches are rubbish.
link |
Can you just elaborate like technically
link |
what the term addiction means that you're referring to?
link |
When I use the term addiction,
link |
I'm referring to the Diagnostic Statistical Manual
link |
of the American Psychiatric Association,
link |
number five now, the DSM five.
link |
That's never been wrong, right?
link |
You're absolutely, that point is well taken.
link |
And your point is that their definition
link |
of substance use disorder, that's addiction.
link |
That's what I'm talking about.
link |
But that definition continues to evolve.
link |
And so you're right.
link |
They still are working it out.
link |
We're getting new information from scientific studies
link |
And so it's supposed to be incorporated into the DSM,
link |
but there are some problems with the DSM.
link |
Like for example, they also have this sort of once an addict,
link |
always an addict thing.
link |
And there's no evidence to support that, but it's evolving.
link |
And it's the definition that people in science
link |
And so we all know we're talking about the same language
link |
when we call someone a substance use disorder patient
link |
or someone who meets criteria for addiction.
link |
We all are speaking the same language.
link |
We're not saying that simply because this person
link |
use heroin, they are an addict.
link |
That's not what we're saying.
link |
You have to meet these criteria where you have disruptions
link |
in your psychosocial functioning.
link |
And two, you, the person are distressed
link |
by these disruptions.
link |
So people have to meet those two basic criteria
link |
before we say they are addicted.
link |
So once an addict, always an addict, this idea.
link |
So I've, I mean, some of it is always mapped
link |
to the person, all right.
link |
But just the people I've interacted with
link |
who have struggled with alcohol addiction,
link |
I don't know what the proper term is.
link |
It seems like with Alcohol Anonymous,
link |
the process of putting that addiction behind you
link |
is a very, very long process.
link |
It's surprisingly long to me.
link |
That almost seems like a whole life.
link |
Like, he's not always an addict, but it takes decades.
link |
It seems like, what is that?
link |
What, can you maybe just, from your understanding
link |
as a scientist, from your understanding as a human
link |
who studies human nature, why does it take so long
link |
to treat, to deal with that addiction?
link |
Well, you cited Alcohol Anonymous, right?
link |
And so I don't think of Alcohol Anonymous
link |
as like a treatment that I would send any relative to,
link |
like for a drug related problem.
link |
I think Alcohol Anonymous AA is really good
link |
for social interactions, making sure people
link |
have a social group and they have peers.
link |
I mean, that's a good thing.
link |
We all need that social interaction.
link |
But I don't think they know much about drugs.
link |
That's not, it's like saying, well, you know,
link |
my uncle broke his knee and he has this support group
link |
and they said this, and then we follow that.
link |
That doesn't make any sense.
link |
But in our society, judges even sentence people
link |
Are you kidding me?
link |
But that's the kind of thing that has been allowed to happen
link |
in this society because we think of drugs
link |
as this moral failing or drug addiction
link |
as this moral failing.
link |
And any idiot can provide treatment
link |
and no disrespect to AA because I think what they do
link |
is a lot more than what some people do
link |
because at least they have this social,
link |
these social interactions, you have a social group.
link |
That's better than what a lot of these other idiots
link |
Well, and that social support group unrelated to the drug,
link |
it helps cure some of the environment issues
link |
That's the whole point.
link |
So we kind of coupled the drug to the environment,
link |
but the reality is, as you argue,
link |
most of the problems come from the environment.
link |
Certainly with people who are experiencing
link |
drug related problem with most of the people,
link |
not all, but most.
link |
There are differences like that psychedelics
link |
and like psilocybin has versus alcohol.
link |
I personally think I've enjoyed both experiences
link |
in different ways.
link |
Is it possible or are we getting into the realm of poetry
link |
to describe the benefits, like how it alters the mind,
link |
how the different drugs alter the mind
link |
and the places it can take you
link |
that produce a positive experience?
link |
Yeah, no, it's very real.
link |
Like some drugs take people in places that other drugs can
link |
and that's very real.
link |
I have friends, some of them you know,
link |
they, for example, say that they've never had an experience
link |
like the one they had with ayahuasca
link |
and they've done a number of sort of things,
link |
but they did the ayahuasca in a setting with a shaman
link |
and this group and they felt like they actually began
link |
to heal or solve some problems
link |
that they were trying to solve for some years.
link |
And that's great, that's great for them.
link |
And nothing else does it for them like that.
link |
And that's absolutely fantastic.
link |
All I argue is that if that kind of thing happens for you
link |
with ayahuasca, with psilocybin,
link |
with some other psychedelic,
link |
why isn't it possible that heroin does that for someone
link |
or cocaine does that for someone else
link |
or MDMA does it for someone, that's it.
link |
That's interesting to imagine like a shaman for heroin.
link |
Or cocaine, you said creating an environment for yourself,
link |
for use of these different substances
link |
and that environment has a very strong impact
link |
on the actual experience that you have.
link |
But I mean, so cocaine is an upper and then.
link |
Yeah, the way we define drugs like uppers and downers,
link |
that's a really kind of inappropriate way
link |
but it's a quick way.
link |
So we certainly say cocaine is an upper or stimulant.
link |
But it depends on the activity of the person
link |
before they take the drug.
link |
Say like if you're like really active
link |
before taking a drug like cocaine,
link |
it might actually calm you.
link |
So it all depends on the activity of the person
link |
before they take the drug.
link |
I remember, I don't know if you know Matthew Johnson is.
link |
He did all these studies on,
link |
or I remember just reading a paper,
link |
I didn't get a chance to talk with him much about it,
link |
but it was about condom use and cocaine.
link |
And then like the doses
link |
and whether people are more or less likely.
link |
Like the unsafe thing there is the using or not using,
link |
or not using, I guess, condoms during sexual intercourse.
link |
I don't know, I just, I love that these drugs
link |
that have connotation probably because of Hollywood,
link |
negative connotations are actually being studied by science.
link |
And then the actual impact they have,
link |
and what are the negative effects.
link |
Again, in those studies often,
link |
the positive effects are difficult to quantify, I think.
link |
Maybe I guess you can from self report and so on.
link |
Positive effects are not difficult to quantify.
link |
You ask people about their euphoria,
link |
you can see how well people are getting along.
link |
Like in our studies that we have people sometimes in groups
link |
and you see how well they get along
link |
on the various drug conditions or placebo conditions.
link |
It's really, it's not that difficult.
link |
And then you can see these amazing studies
link |
with like Rick Doblin, like the looking at MDMA
link |
and combined with therapy,
link |
like how you can overcome certain PTSD things
link |
or depression and so on.
link |
Yeah, it's really interesting.
link |
It's really interesting.
link |
I had to ask you, cause you mentioned The Wire.
link |
Do you think The Wire, you think movies like Trainspotting,
link |
do you think they're ultimately destroying?
link |
Yes, they celebrate murder, right?
link |
The Godfather a little bit.
link |
But another one, I mean,
link |
it's like these racist ass motherfuckers
link |
and they also are killing people,
link |
but yet they say, we don't do drugs.
link |
What kind of shit is that?
link |
I mean, people who are doing drugs, psilocybin or whatever.
link |
The thing is we're trying to be better people
link |
and trying to make our society better
link |
and you're killing people
link |
and you are denigrating people for using drugs.
link |
Are you fucking kidding me?
link |
And we let them get away with that as a society.
link |
Do you see those movies?
link |
I apologize if I'm not sufficiently informed.
link |
You see them as denigrating drugs?
link |
I mean, The Godfather.
link |
Yes, that's right.
link |
That's a good example.
link |
The Godfather, The Sopranos is all about that.
link |
I mean, Christopher is using heroin in The Sopranos
link |
and they have an intervention in one season
link |
and they are denigrating him.
link |
Are you kidding me?
link |
You just cut somebody's head off.
link |
Yeah, but they're, to be fair,
link |
they were denigrating, I think, all drugs.
link |
And then they're drinking alcohol in the butterbeam.
link |
Come on, I mean, first of all, they're killing people.
link |
They don't have any space, none,
link |
to denigrate somebody who's just trying
link |
to alter their consciousness.
link |
Are you kidding me?
link |
And not bothering anyone else.
link |
But there's a lot of other mob movies
link |
that Scarface celebrates the murder and the drugs equally.
link |
So, I mean, it doesn't,
link |
it celebrates all of the, not just drugs or so on,
link |
All of those movies, you know,
link |
I loved all those movies.
link |
I'm from Miami, I loved Scarface.
link |
I even liked The Sopranos that I started looking
link |
at that shit with a critical eye and see what it's doing.
link |
But Scarface is dependent upon the American viewer
link |
having a certain view of people who deal in drugs.
link |
And that view is that these people are animals, basically.
link |
And in the end, the animal kills himself
link |
with too much cocaine and he was high.
link |
That's what they show.
link |
And so it's like, what the fuck?
link |
So it's leveraging, it's playing
link |
into not the better angels of our nature.
link |
Don't take away these great movies from me.
link |
But it's true, you have to think about them critically
link |
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
link |
I like these movies.
link |
It's not a matter of taking away.
link |
It's a matter of making the writers be more honest
link |
That's really true.
link |
And the writers, the people, the culture, all of it.
link |
I mean, they write these things.
link |
I just think about some hip hop artists.
link |
They say like, this is real.
link |
This is my experience and so forth.
link |
And that's how these movie writers,
link |
they write this bullshit and then say, well, this is real.
link |
Anyway, I get so upset talking about it
link |
because I know the harm it's doing.
link |
And I know those kinds of movies are the reason
link |
that we have this war on drugs.
link |
And all of these people are going to jail
link |
because of those kinds of movies.
link |
In the epilogue of your book, you quote James Baldwin.
link |
You cannot know what you will discover on the journey,
link |
what you will do with what you find
link |
or what you find will do to you.
link |
So let me ask, how has drug use or the study of drugs
link |
changed you as a human being?
link |
It has helped me think about other people's experience.
link |
So how we're all connected, like going to Northern Ireland.
link |
I don't know if you know much about the situation
link |
with the troubles and what those people went through.
link |
And so I see people there.
link |
Northern Ireland, by the way, is all white.
link |
And you see those people there suffering
link |
for the same reasons that people in Appalachia
link |
are suffering for.
link |
Neglected by politicians who told them lies about drugs
link |
and not dealing with the real problems,
link |
like West Virginia, for example.
link |
Their water's polluted, the factories have gone away,
link |
people are desperate and they're blaming drugs.
link |
Are you kidding me?
link |
So the politicians don't have to bring back the jobs.
link |
So we don't have to really make sure
link |
they have clean drinking water, things of that nature.
link |
And so those people are connected
link |
to the people in Northern Ireland.
link |
They're connected to the people in Brownsville.
link |
They're connected to the people in other places
link |
in the United States for the same reason.
link |
They're connected to the people in Sao Paulo, Brazil.
link |
Same thing, people are catching hell for the same reason
link |
in the Philippines for the same reason.
link |
And that's why I feel so strongly about this thing
link |
because I know there are people getting paid
link |
and their paycheck is predicated on subjugating
link |
and the suffering of those other people.
link |
So when we hear about the destructive effects of drugs,
link |
it's essentially a scapegoat for the failures of leaders
link |
and politicians to help alleviate the suffering
link |
of people in those communities.
link |
Absolutely, it's so easy to say,
link |
I'm gonna rid your community of drugs.
link |
I'm gonna put more cops on the street.
link |
If you want a problem not to be solved,
link |
just give it to the military or the cops.
link |
You had a tough childhood growing up in Miami, like you said.
link |
What memory stands out in particular that was formative
link |
and helping make you the man you are?
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That's so hard to say, my grandmother was really important.
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So maybe just her trying to make sure that I think critically,
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I guess that's the biggest one.
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So you moved in with your parents split?
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What have you learned about life from her?
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Be self sufficient, be critical and keep your eyes open
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and watch out for the okie doke.
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And that's what this whole drug thing is about.
link |
It's the okie doke, people, it really boils down
link |
to just simple thing.
link |
We're all similar in that we're all just trying
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to live our life, trying to take care of our kids.
link |
We want the best for our kids, all of us.
link |
But yet somehow we've been made to believe
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that we're different in that way.
link |
But fundamentally, we're all the same.
link |
So when people are seeking to feel pleasure, to feel better,
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why don't we celebrate that?
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Instead, we denigrate people for that.
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I mean, if I feel better, I'm more likely to treat you well.
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I got to say still, though, you're going against the grain
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and you're at Columbia, it takes a lot of guts
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to sort of speak out about these ideas so boldly.
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I don't know how to ask this question.
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Where do you find the guts?
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What, because it's also perhaps inspirational to others
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in different disciplines that are sort of taking
link |
on the conventional wisdom of the day.
link |
And challenging it, what does it take to do that?
link |
What advice would you give to others like you kind
link |
of a little bit afraid to do so?
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Once you know, you cannot not know, as they say.
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And so I have to look in the mirror.
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And then looking in the mirror, I have to face myself.
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Have I lived honestly?
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And if I can't face myself, then what am I doing here?
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You know, that's how I see it.
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One of the things that people don't really talk about
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with drugs and people who die from some drug related death.
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And I've been thinking about this a whole lot
link |
over the past couple of years.
link |
It's like some of these drugs can take you to a place
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where you feel so optimistic and positive about humans,
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our fellow humans.
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And you want to do your best to contribute.
link |
And because you know the possibilities
link |
of what we can be as a society.
link |
And then you come up with resistance and you, like you say,
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there are a lot, there's a lot of resistance
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and people just have a hard time.
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And so if you know humans can be better
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and they refuse to be better, why be here
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as someone who knows that we can do this better?
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I certainly don't want to do it the way we're doing it.
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So you kind of see drugs as mechanisms
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for potentially elevating the human spirit,
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sort of making people feel better.
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So you want to communicate that message.
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So it's that plus the fact that drugs are used as scapegoat
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to not alleviate the suffering of certain communities.
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So those two things come together.
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One of the sort of main points of the book too
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was to try and get people to understand the possibilities
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that we could have if we embraced certain drug use.
link |
If we allowed adults to do this sort of thing.
link |
Relationships can be better.
link |
A wide range of beneficial effects.
link |
People would be, or can learn to be more magnanimous.
link |
All of these pro social things that we say we value.
link |
In your previous book, High Price,
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you talk about rap and DJing, chapter five.
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There's a nice picture of you DJing from 1983.
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So let me ask who in your view,
link |
this is the toughest question of this interview,
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is the greatest hip hop artist of all time?
link |
Maybe give some candidates.
link |
Who is the greatest hip hop artist?
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I don't know if I'm qualified to make that bag
link |
because I have to go back to like Gil Scott Heron.
link |
Like people think of him as one of the fathers of hip hop.
link |
That's my all time favorite.
link |
People like Chuck D from Public Enemy.
link |
Some of the things that they were doing,
link |
I was really digging, but even though I was digging
link |
like Public Enemy, but even they got it wrong on drugs.
link |
Even Gil Scott Heron got it wrong on drugs.
link |
But they were doing so much other good stuff.
link |
It helped me to develop as a person.
link |
And so I think like my son is a hip hop artist now.
link |
I think those folks who are in the game now,
link |
they are a lot more qualified to talk about who's
link |
the greatest hip hop artist.
link |
I'm not qualified.
link |
The evolution, I mean, have you tracked the evolution
link |
from sort of the 90s with Wu Tang and Tupac and Biggie
link |
and then to what we have today?
link |
So there's just been a crazy amount of progress.
link |
It's like almost difficult to track.
link |
Yeah, I mean, I really love what they're doing.
link |
I like what they accept the part where they get over 40
link |
and they become fucking cops on TV.
link |
I mean, other than that, I dig what's that about.
link |
Yeah, I don't understand that, but that's what they do.
link |
Again, this sort of glorification of cops,
link |
that's dangerous for a society.
link |
And those cats who do that kind of thing,
link |
I have a problem with that.
link |
Is it all sort of to push back a little bit?
link |
Because I come from the Soviet Union
link |
where there's a huge amount of corruption.
link |
And when I see what's going on with cops in this country,
link |
there's a lot of proper criticism you can apply,
link |
but like relative to other places,
link |
this is, well, on so many ways, this country is incredible.
link |
Is your criticism towards cops
link |
or towards what cops are asked to do?
link |
Yeah, towards what cops are asked to do.
link |
Cops provide the shield for politicians and those in power.
link |
Absolutely, because I was in the military,
link |
I spent four years in the military
link |
and I did what I was told to do.
link |
And I was ignorant and thought I was doing the right thing.
link |
And I did what I was told to do.
link |
And so just like these guys are doing what they're told to do.
link |
But no, my real beef is with the power structure,
link |
the folks who are telling them what to do.
link |
And also the folks who go play cops on television.
link |
That imagery, that sort of glorifying cops,
link |
that's a problem in a democracy.
link |
Yeah, all sides of the glorification
link |
of the drug war is a problem.
link |
If I can just linger on a little longer
link |
in terms of the effects of drugs,
link |
on the positive like mind expanding components of it,
link |
what have mind altering drugs teach you
link |
about the human mind?
link |
Sort of from a neuroscience, not even like a biochemical,
link |
but just like the human mind is amazing, right?
link |
The places it can go.
link |
Like, are there some insights you've learned
link |
from studying drugs about the mind?
link |
Yeah, can I start from a neurochemical perspective first
link |
and then we'll go larger?
link |
Just from a neurochemical perspective.
link |
I mean, everything I know about the brain,
link |
I learned through drugs because of my interest in drugs.
link |
So I learned a lot about dopamine neurons
link |
in certain regions of the brain, about neuro epinephrine
link |
neurons and a wide range of other sort of neural transmission
link |
happened because of drugs.
link |
And so that's a really valuable tool, lessons for me.
link |
But then when we think that we move out a bit
link |
and we think more globally,
link |
what have I learned in terms of the mind from drugs?
link |
I have really learned how to be more forgiving of people
link |
and myself and tolerant, more tolerant of people
link |
and certainly learned a lot more about empathy
link |
as a result of drug use.
link |
And like I said earlier, I'm learning what we can be
link |
as a species and it's quite incredible,
link |
but because of drugs.
link |
Yeah, there's a certain property of drugs in different ways.
link |
They take you out of your body,
link |
like they help you evaluate yourself
link |
from like a third person perspective.
link |
It's almost like you have a consciousness in here
link |
and you get to step outside of it a little bit.
link |
I mean, that's kind of what meditation does too.
link |
All of these processes,
link |
that's what a hell of a good workout does too.
link |
It makes you evaluate yourself and then somehow
link |
that allows you to be forgiving to yourself
link |
and forgiving to others, sort of empathize.
link |
It trains that part of your brain.
link |
So stepping outside of yourself,
link |
not taking yourself too seriously, that process.
link |
And different drugs do that in different ways.
link |
Obviously, I don't know from personal experience
link |
on some of them, but I'm now curious,
link |
it's unfortunate that the Hollywood and different stories
link |
we have demonize certain drugs and sort of basically,
link |
I don't know, make it difficult for people like me
link |
to explore those ideas, but then I'm really thankful
link |
for people like you who are pushing the science forward
link |
and are unafraid to talk about this kind of stuff.
link |
Cause I'm really fascinated with consciousness
link |
on the engineering side.
link |
I really want to build robots that have elements
link |
of intelligence, emotion, even consciousness.
link |
And for that, we need to understand it in ourselves
link |
and drugs is all the different kinds of drugs.
link |
If you safely seems like an incredible tool
link |
to understand ourselves.
link |
And if we're limiting ourselves from certain drugs
link |
because of certain political games that are being played,
link |
And people know this, a lot of middle to upper class
link |
people know this, the illicit drug trade business
link |
is a multi million dollar industry,
link |
multi billion dollar industry that could not be supported
link |
by people who are poor.
link |
And that has to be supported by a lot of customers.
link |
And a lot of people around the world know this,
link |
they're in the closet and in the book,
link |
I call for them to get out of the closet.
link |
So we can start being more honest
link |
and we can take the pressure off of those people
link |
who are not as privileged.
link |
Like I said, you're brave, you're bold.
link |
I gotta ask you for some advice.
link |
What advice would you give to a young person today?
link |
High school, maybe undergrad, college,
link |
thinking about their career,
link |
thinking about how to live a life they can be proud of.
link |
Yeah, whatever career they choose,
link |
just make sure that they dedicate themselves to it
link |
and be the best at what they do first.
link |
That's what you have to do first.
link |
Like people see me advocating for this position.
link |
30 years of science is in these opinions, this view.
link |
And trust me, I would be dismissed
link |
if I didn't know my shit, if I was not.
link |
Yeah, you did the work, you proved yourself,
link |
you're legit by the people in the eyes of the people
link |
Absolutely, so that's the main thing
link |
that I would encourage people to do,
link |
really know your craft.
link |
If you know your craft,
link |
and then maybe you will be a service
link |
to your fellow citizens.
link |
There are so many people out here faking the funk
link |
and they don't know their craft
link |
and they're not a service to the people
link |
that they claim to serve.
link |
And that's a problem.
link |
And when you have a fair number of people
link |
like that in positions of power,
link |
your society is going to crumble.
link |
What about the scientific path?
link |
You recommend people get a PhD?
link |
Not necessarily, like my own children,
link |
I don't recommend that.
link |
So science can, certainly my science
link |
can be a very petty sort of space to be in.
link |
But it was the only sort of path that I had.
link |
And so I had to do it.
link |
But no, I would really encourage people
link |
to just do something that they enjoy
link |
and something that makes them happy.
link |
Because the greater number of happy people in our society,
link |
the better off we all are.
link |
All right, since you mentioned happiness,
link |
gotta ask you about the pursuit of happiness
link |
and the ridiculous question about meaning.
link |
Do you think this life has meaning?
link |
What do you think is the meaning of life?
link |
I certainly hope it has meaning.
link |
I mean, I'm certainly trying to live my life
link |
like it has meaning.
link |
You know, I really love my life now.
link |
I just got back from Geneva.
link |
I spent the summer abroad in Europe
link |
and trying to be in a more civilized place
link |
where you can enjoy yourself as a responsible adult.
link |
And then it allowed me to decompress
link |
and then come back here.
link |
The thing about coming back here
link |
is that you have to be ready to fight.
link |
And I don't wanna fight anymore.
link |
I just wanna be able to help a society and people.
link |
And so I'll have to keep a place in Europe
link |
to go and decompress and then come back
link |
to be able to tolerate the situation.
link |
So life for me has a lot of meaning.
link |
I'm enjoying life.
link |
And this is like the greatest,
link |
the best part of my life ever right now at this moment.
link |
but you also enjoy the fight a little bit or?
link |
No, I don't really, I'm tired of that.
link |
You know, it's like, why?
link |
I'm trying to help people to see how they can be happy
link |
and then people are fighting me on that.
link |
I don't wanna be happy.
link |
I wanna be ignorant.
link |
That's what people are saying.
link |
Well, so what is the source of joy for you
link |
when you decompress?
link |
MDMA is a source, you know,
link |
and a place where you don't have to worry about laws,
link |
that's like Europe.
link |
You can feel really free.
link |
Yeah, heroin can even be a nice space
link |
if I'm in my own head,
link |
but with others, MDMA is great.
link |
So, but good friends, good food.
link |
Yeah, that's right.
link |
Carl, you're an incredible human being.
link |
You really make me think.
link |
Everyone who listens to this,
link |
I mean, I'm really glad you exist.
link |
I know you say you don't like the fight,
link |
but I'm really glad you're fighting the fight
link |
because it's gonna help a lot of people.
link |
It's gonna help, at the very least,
link |
help a lot of people think
link |
and challenge the conventions of the day
link |
and maybe challenge them to find joy.
link |
I really appreciate you spending your valuable time with me.
link |
This was an awesome conversation.
link |
Thank you so much for talking to me.
link |
Thank you for having me, man.
link |
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Carl Hart.
link |
To support this podcast,
link |
please check out our sponsors in the description.
link |
And now let me leave you with some words from Frank Zappa.
link |
A drug is not bad.
link |
A drug is a chemical compound.
link |
The problem comes in when people who take drugs
link |
treat them like a license to behave like an asshole.
link |
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.