back to indexTom Brands: Iowa Wrestling | Lex Fridman Podcast #245
link |
The following is a conversation with Tom Brands, Olympic champion and world champion in freestyle
link |
wrestling, three time NCAA wrestling champion at University of Iowa and one of the greatest
link |
coaches in the history of wrestling, leading the University of Iowa Hawkeyes for 15 years,
link |
including in 2021, winning the national championships and getting a Coach of the Year award, his third.
link |
He is known for his intensity, focus and mental toughness, embodying both as a wrestler and coach,
link |
the culture and spirit of Iowa wrestling. We recorded this conversation almost exactly three
link |
years ago after I attended the University of Iowa versus Iowa State wrestling meet in the historic
link |
Carver Hawkeye Arena. Tom graciously invited me to his home or his family, a couple of friends and me
link |
spent several hours chatting about wrestling and life. We recorded this brief podcast conversation
link |
that evening and I wasn't sure where, how or whether we'll publish it but returning to it now
link |
three years later, I realized just how meaningful that evening was for me and even though I was
link |
nervous, didn't even put on my jacket, it's the moment I would love to share with others.
link |
The mix of intensity and heartfelt kindness from Tom and his family made me want to stay in Iowa
link |
forever. I think I will return there soon enough because of the amazing people there and because
link |
Iowa is still in many ways the heart of the indomitable spirit of American wrestling,
link |
a sport I love and to which I'm deeply grateful for humbling me early in life and helping me
link |
and many others build character through hard work. This is the Lex Friedman podcast. To support it,
link |
please check out our sponsors in the description and now here's my conversation with Tom Brands.
link |
What's the best motivator for you or for your athletes? Hatred of losing or love of winning?
link |
For me personally, it was definitely the hatred of losing. I was not a guy that was about pageantry.
link |
I was not a guy that was about the parade. When I wrestled in Atlanta, I rented a three cylinder
link |
geo with my wife, drove home and mowed the lawn because it hadn't been mowed for a month.
link |
And I remember one of our neighbors driving by and they were like, they did a double take.
link |
Like, well, that's the, I thought he was in Atlanta. Well, I wasn't in Atlanta yesterday,
link |
just sat on the stand and got a gold medal put around my neck. That's how I was. That doesn't
link |
mean that it was the right approach or the wrong approach. It's just what worked for me.
link |
But when you were a kid, you and Terry, you dreamed about winning that Olympic gold.
link |
Yeah. That's what winning then. There is the lure of winning, but what drives you is that
link |
as you move forward, there's just no reason that you have to settle for anything but being the best.
link |
And if it just, it would get to you to the point where that's not going to happen to me again.
link |
So what, the thing that keeps you up at night is the, the losses and that's not,
link |
that's not going to happen to me again. That's the thought that keeps you up at night.
link |
That's the thought that drives you when you're training. That's why you do,
link |
you know, nine ropes when Gable says do three ropes and buddy pushups and you're out of here
link |
and you do nine or you do them until you can't do any more. And it's a very rare
link |
ingredient. The older I get, the more rare I find it is.
link |
The ingredient of loss, feeding, feeding that the drive of hard training.
link |
Maybe that because everybody's so worried about the negative of whatever and you're
link |
putting too much pressure on yourself. So maybe that, but what I meant was it's when a coach says,
link |
okay, finished with four ropes and you know, buddy pushups and four way neck, you know,
link |
I would do 12 or 10. That's rare. It's no longer about what the coach says.
link |
It's your own demons that you're trying to exercise out. What's the few losses you've had
link |
in your life? Are all of them just melt together? Or is there something that stands out in your
link |
mind? I'm a guy that remembers my career that well. I know that I am judged on a very small
link |
portion of my life and that's minutes of wrestling matches. You know, a lot of winning,
link |
but there's some losing in there too. And you know, people think they know you because of that.
link |
And they think they know you because they see you in a press conference. But
link |
um, you know, to go back to the original question, you know, I don't know how to answer that. So
link |
there's no losses that just that eat at you still. There's opponents that I have learned a great deal
link |
from. I mean, my loss to John Smith, uh, in 1991, um, US Open was something that I learned a lot
link |
about. Um, I learned a lot about positioning. I learned a lot about the importance of parterre,
link |
um, you know, in a certain kind of crazy way, I learned that I could go with the best guy in
link |
the world, even though it was 14 to four. And this is when tech falls were 15 or 12 points,
link |
I didn't get tech fall. And I wasn't, that wasn't a badge of honor for me, but I knew I could go
link |
with him because it was one point takedowns. I scored four takedowns on him. And I learned that
link |
I had to move my feet. Um, and I learned what it meant to move your feet constantly. And there's
link |
no break. John Smith is a very, very intense competitor that people know that now, six time
link |
world Olympic champion. And I felt that firsthand, but I did not go in there, um, taking a backseat,
link |
even though the score, um, was very lopsided. But you knew you could stand with the best of the
link |
world. I knew that I, this is what this is about. And you know what, you move your feet and you
link |
don't give up a lace that's so damn tight that it, you're, you can't, you know, feel your calf
link |
muscle, you know, and I had to get ready for the consolation side of the bracket. Cause I believe
link |
that was in the semis, you know, you know, you just learned from that. And it was, it was better
link |
than learning from, you know, a win over a second ranked senior level guy when you're a junior in
link |
college, you know, you rest on the best on a stage. So if you look back, you probably spent tens of
link |
thousands of hours on the mat, spilled sweat, blood, even tears, maybe, maybe a few times.
link |
So technically or philosophically, how would you do any of those hours differently? Just
link |
looking back at the tens of thousands of hours, I would be more probably in my older age. I
link |
probably would have been more relaxed in my training and probably would have went another cycle,
link |
if I could do it over again. In 96, I really thought that when Gable retired, that I would be the
link |
next guy in line and I was wrong and that was immature of me. In terms of the coach.
link |
In terms of the coach, yes. And I knew that Gable was close. I mean, I didn't know when, but it just
link |
so happens, you know, 97 was his record breaking year and then he retired. But I didn't know how
link |
close he was, but I knew that he had, you know, he went down with a bad hip injury. And so, you
link |
know, you're just, you're not going to. So what is, what is the relaxed Tom Brands looks like?
link |
You're saying you would have been a little more relaxed? More like where, you know what, I was
link |
pretty dang good and I was getting better every day, but maybe doing a little bit different,
link |
a little bit smarter and Terry actually did that going through 2000. He had to do it and
link |
he would have been in the, you know, the funny farm, let alone the, you know, the physical farm,
link |
whatever you want to say, mentally and physically beat up. But he had to learn to
link |
less as more type of approach. And how it came around was, is, you know, you work hard at feeling
link |
good. You work hard in your recovery. So even when you're not wrestling hard in that wrestling room
link |
and looking for the toughest partner to go, you're still working hard in your recovery and
link |
massage could be that stretching could be that thing, things like that that are more fluffy.
link |
And that's something you weren't as good at recovery? There's not a place for it with young
link |
people because in my opinion, there's so much development to have happened. I mean, when you
link |
need to learn wrestling, you need to be wrestling. And as you get older, your body won't do it
link |
anymore. And so to learn wrestling, it's more of a probably a relaxed approach. So if you had to
link |
choose between two athletes, who would dominate competition, one who drills 100,000 reps of a
link |
specific takedown, specific technique, or one that spends that time live wrestling, both,
link |
it's the same. And I like to live wrestling, I was always wanting to live wrestling, bring the
link |
warm up into the live wrestle, let's go. But where I got really, really good was a repetition.
link |
And I was disciplined enough to know that the things that you hate to do in this sport are the
link |
things that make you the very best. And that is a rare ingredient, as I've gotten older.
link |
And you spend a lot of time communicating that to younger athletes. So the thing,
link |
if you feel yourself hating something, that's probably the thing you should be doing.
link |
Yes. As a matter of fact, I had a strength coach when I was really young. He was just a
link |
freaking guy that would, he wore white, like he was almost like a nurse, nurses clothes.
link |
He wore all white from head to toe. And he was in Cheyenne, Wyoming. And his first name was Walt.
link |
And he taught Terry and I to hate the bar away from you on that last rep when you're dead.
link |
And whether it's a curl, you hate it up. And then you do the negative and you hate it down.
link |
And you hate that bench up and you hate it. You look at the bar and you hate it away from you.
link |
So, you know, I learned and I was young. I was young. And I remember being bored,
link |
my mom's sister lived out there. And we were dropped off to stay out there with her cousins.
link |
And I was bored a little bit. And they always treated us really good. But this was like the
link |
single most bright spot in a weightlifting, like enlightenment, even though I lifted weights.
link |
But I never knew the psychology behind lifting weights. It's just to look good.
link |
And so you could flex and look in the mirror or is it for performance? And this guy was about
link |
performance. And you said repetition. Do you mean technique?
link |
I'm talking repetition, technique, technique, technique, drill, drill, drill, hit, hit, hit,
link |
hit, hit, drive, finish, hit, hit, hit, hit, drive, finish.
link |
So you believe in that? You believe in that wholeheartedly?
link |
So, I mean... And I believe that you have to do it on your own.
link |
I don't believe in the coach taking you to the promised land.
link |
So in the guys today, or in yourself, how often do you see people that
link |
grow the belief of doing 10,000, 20,000 reps?
link |
I think it's rare. I think it's very rare. And I think it's especially rare.
link |
I mean, you can talk about that as a coach, but it's especially rare to bring a guide to that
link |
understanding, but you never stop trying. You're always trying to reach out to them.
link |
You're always trying to reach them. I mean, we didn't have a good performance
link |
out there tonight, but you know what? You don't stop communicating.
link |
And there's a lot of programs out there that put their head down
link |
when things aren't going their way. And then as things start going their way,
link |
then they rise with the tide. There was no difference in the demeanor of our corner.
link |
And we talk about that. That's a philosophy. And so you're reaching your guys that way.
link |
So go back to your point or your question. Do you believe in the 10,000 reps? And yes,
link |
I do. But how do you inspire people to do that? So by example, but communication.
link |
But I mean, in my experience, what I've seen communicating the value of repetition and drilling
link |
is a hard thing to communicate. It's hard. And it's very rare to have somebody that
link |
goes in there and will do it on their own. Do you have young guys that step up and do that?
link |
We do. And it's rare. And the guys that do it on their own and have done it on their own are the
link |
guys that are in that lineup and doing well. The other thing is, is that when you talk about
link |
getting to that next level, a lot of times it's, you know, what held you back was I did everything
link |
the coach asked of me and nothing more. But I mean, you could be a great guy for,
link |
for an, for a coach as an athlete, and you did everything that coach asked, but you did nothing
link |
more. So you're really looking for the guys that go way beyond what the coach says. We don't want
link |
guys that are looking at their watch running out of the room when practice is over. We want guys
link |
that know what they have to get done and they might leave early, but they're not looking at their
link |
watch. They might be done early. They might be, we might be on a whole different path. And this
link |
guy just excuses himself. I'm all about that. We are not, we are not autocrats.
link |
There's an internal engine in there. Is that something you're born with?
link |
Or is that something you can develop? I think you are born with it. You develop it also. And I
link |
think that there has to be comfort and then go back to the communication that young people are
link |
comfortable enough to communicate that I need to take the day off.
link |
So what do you mean by communication? Just let, exactly. So letting, letting athletes
link |
be part of their own development. Communication to me is, is letting them know
link |
what they're, what they need to do to get themselves in contention to be the starting
link |
quarterback. And then to give them boosts and compliments when they earn them.
link |
And I don't have time to waste with, with lies and cheating. And when I say cheating,
link |
I'm talking about when they cheat themselves. And so there, those become very direct conversations.
link |
And the conversation starts like this. I don't have time to waste and neither do you.
link |
And so why are we wasting our time? And here's what I mean by that. We're having a conversation
link |
about, you know, your accountability. If you look in the mirror and you're accountable, then we are,
link |
we aren't taking the time to go through this. We're already on our way to solving the problem.
link |
Problem can't be solved without that understanding. And that has to do with symptoms that you see in
link |
the wrestling room. There's something where the fire is not quite there. That has to do with
link |
mental, emotional, spiritual, physical, everything, everything that you know about.
link |
You know, I had a boss and our athletic director is a great athletic director and he gives us
link |
everything we need to be successful. But I had a boss, his name was Fred Mims. I didn't think
link |
anybody could be better than him. And then all of a sudden this Gene Taylor guy came in. And I
link |
didn't, and then he was pretty doggone good too. And he actually, you know, was just like Fred and
link |
maybe even a little bit more current. And then he ended up taking a job at Kansas State where he's
link |
the athletic director now. And, and then this, this lady Barbara Burke comes in. And I didn't
link |
think anybody could be better than Gene Taylor or Fred Mims. And this Barbara Burke, she's better
link |
than both of them. And the reason why is because she's a problem solver. She doesn't waste time.
link |
She's correct. And she's a problem solver. And that's what we need. You need problem solvers.
link |
So on the flip side of problems and technique and repetition, here's a thing called toughness,
link |
mental toughness, something that maybe you or maybe even Iowa in general is a little bit
link |
known for. So how do you train mental toughness as a coach? You train mental toughness by putting
link |
them in situations that they're willing to go through, but don't think they can make it. And
link |
then they go through it. And then all of a sudden those barriers are down. Is that have to do
link |
with physical, usually exhaustion, the wraps on the ropes? It has to do with that. And it has to
link |
do with understanding why we're doing it. And sometimes understanding why we're doing it might
link |
not come for months, but there's blind faith. And we have a heavy weight in the room right now,
link |
this, this young guy that he's like that. He doesn't necessarily understand it. He has a lot
link |
of questions, but he doesn't. And he's been here four months now, four and a half months now,
link |
and he's getting better every day. So mental toughness too is a matter of repetition.
link |
That mental toughness is a matter of repetition and having an open mind and being extremely
link |
accountable. And not only accountable that when you maybe, when something doesn't go your way,
link |
that you look in the mirror and own it, but accountable to the point of view that, you know
link |
what, I got to get tough in this situation right here, right now. And this is what's going to make
link |
or break me. And I talked about my own career being defined by, you know, a couple of minutes on the
link |
mat. But that's when you're going to be defined. That's how you're going to be defined. That's
link |
okay. So people are going to talk about you. So you might as well have them talking about how
link |
doggone tough you are. What about we live in a world now, I've often in my own work, I hear about
link |
these concepts of work life balance or overtraining. So you've been one of the hardest workers ever on
link |
the mat. You've coached some of the hardest workers ever. Do you think it's possible to
link |
overtrain train too much? How big of a concern is it peaking and burnout or frames of mind or
link |
burnout is a, is a, like you let things probably get to the point where you could have arrested them
link |
with a good frame of mind, but peaking is a frame of mind. And, you know, you have to know,
link |
be able to read, and that's a lot of it. And the individual athlete also has to know
link |
that it's a frame of mind. And so when you have a coach that's reading that the right way,
link |
and you have an athlete that is knowing that when zero hour comes that you're going to be ready to
link |
go. And knowing that there's light at the end of the tunnel, if you feel like you're burning that
link |
candle at both ends, light's coming at the end of the tunnel. I mean, you're good to go.
link |
So you think about Gable and that whole dream of being carried off the mat because you worked so
link |
hard. And again, do you think it's possible to overtrain? So you said it's a, it's mental.
link |
I do think it's possible to overtrain if you have a lot of distractions.
link |
And if you're looking at your watch running out of the room, then yeah, you're going to,
link |
that frame of mind isn't going to lend itself to excellence. And the thing is, is we have to
link |
accomplish what we need to get accomplished and get better every day. You can't kind of accomplish
link |
what you need to accomplish. You have to accomplish it. And when you're in that mindset, then the
link |
clock is irrelevant. There's no place for a clock in the wrestling room. And maybe a clock that
link |
times a match, but it may be a clock if, you know, we're student athletes here, but that's why we
link |
encourage our, you know, when you schedule your classes that you don't have a class that comes
link |
right up to, you know, practice time or starts as a night class and it starts at 530, you know,
link |
go to get the 630 class or the seven o clock. So you leave it all behind your heart, your passion
link |
is complete. And then there's no, when you walk in that wrestling room, there's no distractions.
link |
And it's never eternal. The only thing that's eternal is death. You know, there's nothing,
link |
sometimes guys come in there and they wig out. Oh, it's an hour and 25 minutes.
link |
Or an hour and 45 minutes. You have to be willing to go as long as it takes. There's no clock.
link |
There's no clock. Again, wrestlers are some of the hardest, some of the toughest people
link |
in all of sports, but weight cutting often breaks people. So what's your thought on weight cutting,
link |
both nutrition wise, mental wise, how do you approach and think of it as a coach in your own
link |
career too? It's a lot of discipline and it's a lot of discipline during a very uncomfortable
link |
time period that really doesn't last that long, but it feels like it lasts long and it's painful.
link |
And but once you shrink your body down, and if you're hydrated, you'll get through it. If you're
link |
a little hungry, but you're eating, but you're hydrated, once you break that sweat, your energy
link |
depletion goes away. That's a fact. I've practiced that. You come in and you're yawning and you're,
link |
you know, you're starting to shrink your body down. And it's that time of year where, hey,
link |
I got to get my body shrunk down. And you're dehydrated, you are dead in the water. But if you're
link |
hungry and hydrated, when you break that sweat. Have people gotten better with that over the years
link |
over the past few decades? I think that coaches science is better. I think that coaches communicate
link |
it. I think they always have. I think the bottom line is, is having the energy to implement that
link |
and taking a guy by the hand when he doesn't understand and he's new in your program and he's
link |
essential and or he's unwilling to and not disciplined enough because when you take him
link |
by the hand enough, they will learn that discipline. This is an important aspect of wrestling, buddy.
link |
You know what I'm saying? So, you know, it's not just go and show up for the match.
link |
I mean, it's not about just making weight either. You got to be able to make weight. That's part of
link |
the warmup. That's part of the process. Getting ready to wrestle. The whole thing. It's a lifestyle.
link |
Yeah. When did you first start believing you're going to win Olympic gold?
link |
I don't know. I mean, I found out I got really addicted to wrestling really, really fast,
link |
started late, but looking back at my life, wrestled my whole life with my twin brother.
link |
And when Terry and I would fight, it was wrestling and it was to maim. And so, if you're trying to
link |
maim me, I better be tough because if I roll over and expect you to scratch my belly when you're
link |
trying to maim me, I won't lose my head. And Tom and Terry Brands, there was no alpha male.
link |
And when it was on, it was on for real. What do you mean there's no alpha male? There's both.
link |
There's both. There's a lot of twins. There's a dominant twin. Oh, a lot of them. Very few times
link |
is there a situation where you're going to, I'm going to win every time and everything. And then
link |
he's thinking the same exact way. And Terry used to describe it like when we used to get interviewed
link |
a lot about our careers, like it'd be like you grabbing a steering wheel and me grabbing a steering
link |
wheel and fighting. And that's what it was like when you would wrestle him or fight him. And so,
link |
I had that benefit. So when did I know, well, I got addicted to wrestling really, really fast
link |
in fifth grade and started to research it. And I don't know why. And talked about the Olympics and
link |
put it in my head and remember said something about being an Olympic champion in fifth grade.
link |
And somebody made fun of me and I got into fighting the playground. And I remember
link |
getting pulled in, getting in trouble for that. And the people that got me in trouble for that
link |
were smart enough to not rake me over the coals, but they researched or they actually found out
link |
what the fight was about. And I was distraught. I was really emotional, like crying or whatever
link |
you want to say. You don't want to admit that to me. But it wasn't because I got beat up or got
link |
my nose bloody or got punched in the face or broke my arm or there was any pain. It was because
link |
they stomped on my dream and they doubted me. And so I fought for that. And that was a lesson.
link |
There's going to be a lot of doubters. And one thing we talk about as a staff is our staff
link |
has to be locked up in that hallway, in our offices. And when you deviate outside of that,
link |
that is heresy. So everybody has to be on board confident that you're going to be number one in
link |
the country. We go forward and we go put our public foot forward. There is a decision. We
link |
are unified and there is no backbiting. And we have great people right now. And we hadn't had that
link |
before. We've had detractors in our Hawkeye wrestling club. We've had guys that would go out and get
link |
rolled up in ankle laces and not care in our club. And we got Brandon Swanson who got rolled up by
link |
James Green last night. But I'll tell you what, I don't have a problem with that. You know why?
link |
Because I know it means a lot to him. He didn't roll over. He didn't quit because he was on the
link |
consolation side of a bracket. And so when you have that and then you have, you know, if there's
link |
a disagreement, it's behind closed doors and then you're moving forward. And when you have people
link |
that when they're meeting your fans and your supporters, you know, they're talking the right
link |
way with the right message. And anything that's catty won't kiss to that. You got to be careful
link |
there. You got to be careful there. So that in terms of affirmations, in terms of really believing
link |
as a team, as an individual believing that you're the best in the world. Did you, I'm sure you had
link |
detractors. You had people that continued after fifth grade. And that's probably where my hatred
link |
of losing trumps my love for winning because I wanted to shove it up their rear end bad. Yeah.
link |
And the thing is, is we maintain a high level and there's very few programs, Oklahoma State,
link |
Ohio State now, Penn State. I mean, there's four programs that try to win a national title every
link |
year. And that's it. And these, these, these other teams, they get up and they got a good team and
link |
they get up and they get going. And then when, when things don't go well, okay, we're going to do it
link |
next year. Or this is a down year. We're going to, we're going to get right. We're three years out.
link |
So no matter what you're fighting for first, we do. And we haven't won. And you say, well,
link |
we won in eight years. Well, you're right. We haven't. But look at our results are better,
link |
better than anybody out there. And it's, and besides Penn State, and it's because of our
link |
mentality and because we have great people. Ryan Morningstar, Bobby Telfer, Terry Brands,
link |
our medical team, even our strength coach, Quinn Holland, we're all on the same page.
link |
And when I send something, I hit it immediately. I don't have time to waste.
link |
There will not be dissension in that hallway. Everybody's in together. Yeah.
link |
1996 Olympic Games in Atlanta. Can you take me through the day when you're going for the 62KG
link |
gold? What did you eat, drink? What did you think? It really doesn't matter. I have a routine
link |
that, you know, I had a routine as a competitor that I could run through right now. It was a lot
link |
of self talk, very, very positive self talk. Visualization. Yes. Visualization, self talk.
link |
And that's how I was able to relax and getting ready for matches my whole life.
link |
Learned that very early age at a camp, at a developmental camp, at a young age, Terry and I
link |
did. And I can tell you what I ate. And I can tell you what I did to relax. And it doesn't matter.
link |
What you have to do is you have to find that piece. And I just know that when I was getting ready for
link |
the finals match, I had gone back to my room. I had my relaxed material, you know, and I was able
link |
to relax because I prepared for it. Hopefully I'm right on this. But just looking at the insane
link |
bracket you had to go through, you had to beat, just to get to the finals, to be three world
link |
champions, eventually world champion Dave. And you know what? I don't talk about that and nobody
link |
else does either. But everybody talks about it in their own career. So now you're making my head
link |
big. But yeah, I had a road. I had a road. You're right. That is the hardest bracket I've seen. So
link |
I've talked to a lot of Olympic champions. That is the hardest bracket I've seen of any champion.
link |
So maybe I'm confused on this, but it seemed like a really tough day for you. Did you have,
link |
did you know the bracket ahead of time? Did you know who you faced?
link |
You see the draw and it's a two day tournament. So psychology comes into it as much as physical
link |
shape, you know, because there's those you got to sleep, you know, the night before after the
link |
weigh in, then you got to sleep again that next night after you're set. My final match is going
link |
to be in the morning, you know, and then you have to go back and rest because your final
link |
matches and then tell whatever time it was. And so all this relaxation and all that stuff that
link |
you just talked about, that visualization and self talk, that's what helps is your routine.
link |
And was there any doubts, any fear, any, anything there?
link |
The fear is the type of fear. And I just talked about this to one of my athletes today,
link |
Jack Dempsey talked about fear and the fear of losing is what motivated him to try to take his
link |
opponent's head off. He was a boxer and that's okay. So fear of competition, fear of screwing
link |
up, fear of, oh, I don't feel good. No, no, but that little fear that, you know what, there's
link |
somebody out there that thinks that, you know what, they're going to, they're going to revel in my,
link |
they're going to, they're going to, they're going to eat it up in my misery. They're going to love,
link |
they're going to be thriving because I fail. And I'm not going to let that happen.
link |
You're identical twin brother, Terry, you've been at him, like you said, your whole life. And you're
link |
both some of the greatest wrestlers of all time. You won the gold medal, he won the bronze medal.
link |
You've mentioned, you know, all that really matters is the six minutes or, you know, just a
link |
few minutes, sometimes a few seconds to find your whole career. So how do you think about
link |
that thin line, the tragic line at the Olympic level between winning and losing?
link |
I think you come to peace that in the end, when it's over, that you did the best you could.
link |
And that's certainly the case with Terry. He has a career credentials are better than mine
link |
internationally. You know, he won two world championships. I won one and he won an Olympic
link |
bronze medal. And you know, I won an Olympic gold medal, but I only won one. And the thing is, is
link |
that's not what's important anyway. What's important is, is that when it's all over,
link |
you know, how do you look back on it? And you're kind of like, well, you just said that you made
link |
sure that you weren't going to leave anything undone. But you know what, there were tournaments
link |
where I did leave things undone. And so how do you come back from that? Well, Terry never came
link |
back from 2000 because he retired. Well, you know what, you duplicate and exceed
link |
when you're communicating to these young athletes. And because of that experience,
link |
that makes Terry a better coach. Because of, you know, 1995, that makes me a better coach.
link |
You know, realizing that there are certain things that unraveled in that year that I could
link |
have control looking back on it. And when you have that perspective, you can communicate.
link |
So what control is there? Can you control everything? How big of a role is luck?
link |
Control how you react to an injury. Control that. So you can't, you don't have any control over it.
link |
It's over, you know, you have whatever and whatever happened, but relax and you learn to deal with
link |
injuries matter because of that. You have that experience that you let this thing maybe get
link |
the best of you. And that's just an example. And, you know, Terry put a lot of demons to rest
link |
with that bronze medal. So becoming an Olympic medalist, a few demons could relax.
link |
Well, a little, he will never admit that. And he probably is truthful. And I should,
link |
I'm speaking for him, but he's truthful when he says that. But if I look at it and bronze sucks,
link |
but if I look at it, he did put some demons to rest and I'm proud of him for it. There's
link |
something there that is a consolation in the fact that he won the consolation medal. The consolation
link |
medal sucks, but there is a consolation that he won the consolation medal. That's a tough
link |
medal to win, by the way. Yeah. But do you see the, the Shakespearean tragedy of it all that
link |
the line between winning and losing? So you often say that, you know, winning is everything, but
link |
it feels like, especially at the Olympic level, or you talk about NCAA finals or
link |
that tournament, you know, a split second mis move can result in a loss where you
link |
dominated all the way up to there. That's where your psychology comes in. And that's where the
link |
repetition and all of the self talk and visualization and the physical shape and everything comes
link |
together. And so that doesn't happen. And tonight you, we got beat twice, actually three times and
link |
we outwrestled those. We lost three matches and we outwrestled the guy for six minutes and 30
link |
seconds or one match went to overtime. And if our guys can move forward with the right perspective,
link |
I'm confident that they'll be better. I'll tell you what, I'd take our guy over their guy any day,
link |
any day, because our guys get up for every match. And now we got a lot to work on.
link |
Right. A lot to work on. But you know what, I could say all that and I'll take our guy and
link |
blah, blah, blah. But what are they going to do tonight in their meal? How are they going to do
link |
tonight and their rest? What are they going to do tomorrow in their recovery on their own
link |
necessarily? What are they going to do Monday? Great wrestlers can use their imagination with a
link |
win that they're not satisfied with and go forward as if it was a loss, but it's still
link |
easier to go forward with that win. But they can, they don't just, oh, I want, I'm fine, goes on.
link |
But then when they lose the exact same way that they could have lost before, then they go off the
link |
deep end. And then that's when they're going to make the change in their life. And we talked about
link |
that to our team tonight. And the mature, rare ingredient is guys that can get better even
link |
with success like it was a loss without beating themselves out. That's complicated.
link |
It is. It's a balance. You often talk about Iowa's focus on creating individual champions
link |
like Spencer Lee. Can you explain the philosophy of focusing on individuals versus the team?
link |
I think that we need to put them both together and the individual impacts the team. And
link |
you know, we haven't done that since 2010. And we need to do a better job of putting 10 weight
link |
classes out there that contribute to the team. And if it's not 10, then it's nine. And if it's
link |
not nine, it can't be four. And that takes a lot of pride and it takes a lot of
link |
where the coach is on top of it. And you're not just working on the easy things.
link |
The glaring things, you're working on everything. What do you mean by everything? So the...
link |
I like there's just some, you know, there's ideas that when you're a coach that aren't
link |
there beneath the surface and you got to find them. And that's where communication comes in.
link |
Yeah. But you're talking about, yeah, we got to move forward. What does that mean? Well,
link |
I know what that means. But how many guys really know what that means in their program?
link |
You know, there's so many levels of that. You've said before that winning is everything.
link |
And that means people lose. Most people lose. You know, there's really in whatever the context
link |
is only one winner. In many parts of our world today, outside of wrestling, that concept,
link |
the brutal honesty of that is uncomfortable for people. So how do you think about this very
link |
philosophical, difficult concept of, you know, there only being one winner that winning is
link |
everything? This kind of really painful idea. I don't think that that's a bad thing to have
link |
that mentality. I mean, I think at Kudakov, I remember a story I read about him, he comes to
link |
mind, you know, Sargush, I remember when he lost in London. And I remember the look on his face.
link |
And those are some of the greatest wrestlers in the history of the sport freestyle wrestling. And
link |
you know, what it's what works for you. And you can talk about being at peace with your results
link |
and that the approach is in the journey is what it's about. But and that's great. And that relaxes
link |
some champions. And that makes some champions really, really tick. But not everybody. So it's
link |
okay. It's okay. And if that wigs you out, that that really makes you uptight, then then go the
link |
other route, you have to find what works for you. And that takes a lot of work. If you're lazy, forget
link |
it. Forget it. So you and Terry, but in general, how do you find the line between extremely physical,
link |
extreme physical wrestling and rough wrestling or angry wrestling? So to which degree has anger,
link |
whether it's in your wrestling room these days or in your own career, entered wrestling? Do you see
link |
it as a tool that can be used in the wrestling match? I think there's a balance and not even a
link |
balance. There's a line that you go up to and you can't cross it. Sportsmanship is everything. You
link |
can get dinged for points, you can get thrown out of tournaments. There's rules with flagrant
link |
misconduct where you're kicked out of the match. Other team gets the points and then you have to
link |
sit the next meet. So it's very serious. The NCAA sends a message, a very serious message about
link |
sportsmanship. And so we talk about that. The other thing with wrestling is there's rules in
link |
wrestling. These guys that are tough guys outside of the rules, that's what you want in your opponent.
link |
That means they're frustrated. You've got to be a tough guy inside the rules of the sport.
link |
That's more honorable than cold cocking somebody and knocking them out. So yeah, anger doesn't mean
link |
breaking the rules. But I mean, a lot of people know you just watching you as a coach. There's
link |
quite a bit of passion there. Well, come and do what you're doing tonight. I mean, break bread with me
link |
in my kitchen and see how big of a jackass I am. Now you're a pretty nice guy. Well, I'm not asking
link |
for that necessarily, but thanks. I'm saying, you know what, you as a coach, I mean, okay,
link |
come spend a month in our program and you'll see really what kind of people we are. And there's a
link |
stigma out there because they are very threatened by our program. There's nobody else that threatens
link |
the sport of wrestling like we do. And that's the truth. There's a legend to Iowa wrestling. There's
link |
it's one of the most intimidating. There's a legend to John Smith. It's the same thing.
link |
But they get up for John Smith. They get up for Oklahoma State. They get up for Penn State.
link |
My question is, okay, I'll answer it this way. I'll give you an example in my coaching career.
link |
I coached at Virginia Tech for 22 months. We recruited the number one recruiting class.
link |
We got the administration to change 100% 180 how they looked at wrestling. Here's the thing. And
link |
because of how serious we were and because we weren't idiots, we were able to do that with our
link |
administration. But my point is this, we tried to win. We tried to win even at Virginia Tech. It
link |
wasn't a stepping stone for me. It ended up me in one quickly. And looking back on it, I was a fool
link |
to think that I'd be there for 20 years. But you believed you would be. I did. I did. I did.
link |
So do you remember a time that you really pushed yourself to your limits? So Gable talks about
link |
having to be carried off the mat. Have you really found that level? I said something about that too
link |
in a book. And I think I was misquoted one time. And actually it was Gable's quote. I was trying to
link |
make the point that Gable's quote was like this. And they were making it like it was my own words.
link |
I think it was a first wrestling tough book. But it's a good book. But the story's Gable's.
link |
And I don't know if there's anybody that has done that besides him. And I think that's a very rare
link |
quality. But I've definitely been in that nirvana level of either you could go all day long.
link |
And you have to shoot me to stop me. Yeah. But there's a balance because you're not going hard
link |
with and holding your breath. It's a relaxed. And like you got a guy cornered and who's most
link |
dangerous. Well, the guy that's cornered. And so that's where you relax. I'm not bum rushing him.
link |
I'm relaxed. I'm still moving fake and very fluid. Guy falls down in his face. I run around behind
link |
him. That's offense. You don't have to just grunt to the leg and call that offense. Offense is a
link |
in and out smooth. Now you sound like a Russian wrestler. Yeah. Well, that's they're the best.
link |
In a certain light, looking at the history of wrestling, wrestling is much bigger than
link |
folk style freestyle Greco. It's it's one of the oldest forms of combat period. There's been
link |
cave drawings 15,000 years ago. Do you ever see the year you're one of the great coaches of all
link |
time, you're now focused on a particular rule style right now. But do you ever see wrestling as
link |
bigger than all of this, you know, as one of the pure combats? I do. And we're raising $20
link |
million for a facility to make it the best facility on the planet. We have a vision to build the best
link |
facility on planet Earth and put the best wrestlers in it. And that is bigger than wrestling. It's
link |
for the University of Iowa. And our donors are doing it for the University of Iowa. But it is
link |
about the value of wrestling. To me, also, there is so much value to wrestling blind. Blind people
link |
don't play football. They wrestle. Blind people don't play basketball. I mean, maybe they do.
link |
But it'd be very difficult. They can wrestle. Wrestling is a field sport. Yeah, there's no
link |
ball. There's nothing. It's just two guys or two girls. And that's it. That's right. And I mean,
link |
I'm not going to say you can't because somebody will get ahold of this. And I'll get an email or
link |
a letter that says, you said blind people can't play baseball and blah, blah. I'm just saying
link |
that blind people can wrestle very effectively. I've wrestled with my eyes shut. I mean,
link |
was honest about it too. And it was I was effective. So why was I able to be effective? Because
link |
wrestling is a sport that you can overcome a lot. Your demons that you're overcoming,
link |
they're not limited with whether I'm blind or not. The demons that are overcoming are inside you.
link |
You have to overcome those demons from within. So what's the future of Iowa wrestling look like
link |
with this facility and this momentum you have now and this great group of guys you have now?
link |
We have a good young group of guys and there is a lot of buzz in the program and probably
link |
hasn't been this much buzz for quite some time. And our job is to be relaxed and be focused and
link |
not get caught up in the buzz. But we have to put it together. And we have a catalyst,
link |
Spencer Lee, but he's going to have to get better. And we have some other catalysts as well
link |
that are going to help us in the future. But they got to get better. And so all this stuff about
link |
independence and accountability and being able to get better every day under duress
link |
and not knowing that you're getting better, but you are. You know what I mean by that?
link |
Like the great thing about Gable was wrestling for him was is you were getting better and you
link |
didn't know you were getting better. Well, just like you said, grow from success. So you never
link |
allow yourself to think that you're getting good. All of a sudden you do something in the practice
link |
room that you've been working on and all of a sudden you hit it and it's like it was automatic.
link |
And then that, you know, that multiply success. So if I may say so, you're a bit of a man of
link |
the Bible. What's where do you go? What do you go to the Bible for your faith? Strength, love,
link |
patience? Same things I talked about things that you can't control, you turn them over.
link |
So the biggest thing for me is I got to turn over the things that I can't control, turn them over
link |
to that power. And I'm going to be a lot better off. And that's the reason why I'm not in the
link |
funny form. It's very competitive to me. Yeah, it's very serious that we know that these young
link |
wrestlers come to school here to be the best that they could be and to accomplish goals
link |
that like me, when I was young, they've set out to accomplish and they chose I would do that.
link |
So we have to deliver. And because of that peace with God, you know, it's peer. It's a peer motivation
link |
and it's a peer platform. It's not it's not doing this for my ego. We're not corrupt people. We're
link |
not liars and cheaters. And so often that gets in the way of a decent person. Yeah, first and foremost,
link |
you're a good person and God helps you be that. Yeah, and we're serious about wrestling.
link |
So a couple more questions. What's the role of family in wrestling? You mentioned your wife
link |
who I read turned you down when you asked her for a phone number, said it's in the phone book.
link |
That's pretty smooth. Her story of that is that she didn't want me to have to remember the number.
link |
And I say at this point, and I say there's no way and I remember it very clearly,
link |
like it's in the phone book and I was like, okay, she's following me off. That's okay.
link |
But luckily, anyway, here's the thing with family. I mean, we have great people in our program. We
link |
have great parents. We have a culture of parents that that's part of the buzz. And this class that
link |
you see wrestling right now that's been here a year now, Lee, Miran, Costello, Warner, and then
link |
Lugo was a transfer. And I'm forgetting somebody. I don't want to forget anybody, but these parents
link |
are phenomenal. And that's a different parental culture. So the camera's dad is the same. And
link |
so there's a lot of good there. And that's a big, that's a big, a big move because
link |
how we talk to parents, we don't talk to parents to get along with them. We talk to parents to
link |
help them understand, you know, where we're at with their sons. And when you can have a direct
link |
conversation with a parent who is helping his son or her son, the mom, helping her son to be
link |
accountable and to own it, then you can get a lot accomplished. And that's what we've been able to do.
link |
And so you're solving problems like I talked about earlier. That's part of the family. The other part
link |
of the family is the coaches are like family. The other part of the family is the coaches,
link |
the coaches, significant others and wives are part of the family. And we fed, you know, we fed
link |
40 guys and an entire coaching staff and wives and their children here at Thanksgiving. And that
link |
equals 70 people. And it's, it's fun. It's fun. So family means administration. Gary Bartow,
link |
my, my athletic director gives us everything that we need to be successful. And he has an open mind
link |
for, for the sport of wrestling and wrestling is important in Iowa. So that's a no brainer. But
link |
not if you're not a wrestling guy, but he sees we do it the right way. And so the commitment
link |
is there from him. If we were doofuses, you know, he, the commitment wouldn't be there.
link |
So family is, everybody's all in. I mean, it's from the rest of us to the family.
link |
It goes back to what I said earlier about our people, our people are great. Ryan Morty Star is
link |
great. Bobby Telford is great. Bobby Telford took over for a guy named Ben Burhaugh, who is great.
link |
Our medical team is great. Dr. Westerman, Dr. Wolf, Jesse Donaworth, our athletic trainer is great.
link |
Terry Brands is great. Mariah Stickley and Elise Owens are managers are great. My daughter's a
link |
manager as well. It's great. They're, they're hardworking young women. Our, our Hawkeye Wrestling
link |
Club is, is where it needs to be in terms of how they help in their role. And now we have four
link |
women in there. And that's great. And, you know, at least one of their dads is super involved with
link |
us. But, um, and so it's, one thing that I've learned is that you have to have that. And if you don't
link |
have that, then you have to address it quickly. And those outliers, you know, let's solve that
link |
problem. Let's get it out in the open here. And if they're, you know, if it doesn't work out,
link |
it's not going to work out. That's a heck of a Thanksgiving dinner. Yeah. Next year. Well,
link |
I don't know if it'd be legal, but I'd have to check with our compliance and, you know,
link |
they'd have to vet you. You could come, you can come and see what it's all about. This room is full.
link |
Oh man. Well, yeah, I'll be back next year then. All right. Awesome. Last question. In 2014, I watched
link |
this video four years ago, uh, of you competing in, I believe your first swim meet against your
link |
brother Terry, uh, and you came out victorious. Not really. Okay. So let's, I won the rate. Did you
link |
cheat? Here's what happened. I researched this thing because I'm, that's how I am. You practiced.
link |
No, I didn't, but I researched it in swimming. If you flinch on that starter block, it's a full
link |
start. You can't twitch a finger and because they would be doing that to get their buddy to move
link |
or the guy next to them, you know, so you have to be rock solid. Well, when we went, Terry was
link |
leaning forward as the gun was going off. So he's moving. And so I was like, no, no, no,
link |
false start. No, no, no, no. And he couldn't hear me. He was already in the water. And so he took
link |
off like a bat out of, you know, where for the end of the pool and couldn't hear me and got to
link |
the end of the pool. And it was a down and back. Well, that's a hard thing to do with a guy with
link |
no body fat. And so he burned a lot of energy and he come up on that end of the pool and he was
link |
like, where's, where's he at? Cause he didn't see me. And so we stopped him and then he came back
link |
and then we went another one and I beat him. But it's the only time that, you know, I would say
link |
that he was tuckered out and that's the reason why. And I'll also say this, we did a time
link |
where we timed my race, the one I won. And then we timed his first down to the wall.
link |
And then we timed his, the actual race where once he hit the wall, we timed him on the way back
link |
and he'd beat me. Now, how's that for being honest? That's pretty honest. That's pretty honest.
link |
Accountable. Wow. Person. And I'm going to tell you something else, getting in those shorts,
link |
those swim trunks as impressive. They are tight. Yeah. So is there outside of wrestling,
link |
is there a thing that Terry got the better of you? I mean, I guess this could count as one
link |
that you're still really bitter about that you need to avenge?
link |
I mean, that's past. I mean, we, he's got an UNO title. We have UNO world championships. He's
link |
got an UNO title I have, I have yet to have one. Morningstar has two titles. That's unprecedented.
link |
So there's only four trophies out there and Terry's got one of those and I don't have one yet.
link |
Yeah. Well, it's still time. Tom, thank you so much for letting a Russian with a tie into your home.
link |
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Tom Brands. To support this podcast,
link |
please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from
link |
Marcus Aurelius. The art of living is more like wrestling than dancing. Thank you for listening
link |
and hope to see you next time.