back to indexDevon Larratt: Arm Wrestling | Lex Fridman Podcast #265
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I get so passionate about it.
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I get so angry, you know?
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Because there's a saying like,
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oh, can you beat him in a hook?
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Can you beat, man?
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Win, win, that's it.
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Just win and don't talk to me about anything else.
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You believe the match is finished.
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And I wonder if that gets in the head of the other person.
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The following is a conversation with Devon Larratt,
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considered by many to be one of the greatest
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arm wrestlers in history.
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This is the Lex Friedman podcast.
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To support it, please check out our sponsors
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in the description.
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And now, dear friends, here's Devon Larratt.
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You are considered to be one of the greatest
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arm wrestlers in history,
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plus are one of the most charismatic
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and fun people to watch in arm wrestling.
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But let me first start with a ridiculous,
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the controversial opinion.
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I actually really enjoy Over the Top,
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the movie with Sylvester Stallone,
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where he's a trucker.
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It's like a father son movie.
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It's, you know, like a bunch of sports
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have the definitive movie.
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Boxing has Rocky, maybe folk style.
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Collegiate wrestling has Vision Quest.
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What else is there?
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Billiards has Color of Money.
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This is the sort of movie for arm wrestling.
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So what did Over the Top get right?
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What did it get wrong about arm wrestling?
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That was actually based off of a real story.
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A lot of people don't know that.
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Yeah, the Over the Top movie,
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I mean, to a certain degree,
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that's actually real life.
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Like that tournament, Over the Top, was real.
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It was literally named Over the Top.
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There was a trucker division,
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and the guy actually won a truck for real.
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His name's John Brzenk.
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You know who that is, right?
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So the actual Over the Top tournament,
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the trucker division, was won by John.
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Who is John Brzenk?
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He is, a lot of people talk about him as like a legend
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and one of, if not the greatest,
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arm wrestlers of all time.
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John Brzenk is every arm wrestler's father
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to a certain degree, all of us.
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The entire sport looks up to him.
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It's incredible what he's done.
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I mean, at 18, he won Over the Top.
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At 57, he just competed with me a couple months ago.
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Still at the world level.
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18, that's 40 years of being at the top of the sport.
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He's hailed as the greatest of all time
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in the sport of arm wrestling.
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And he doesn't, he's beaten some monsters.
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I mean, when you talk about like the evolution of the sport,
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he's responsible for so much of it.
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Like when you talk about, like a lot of times
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when you go back like 20 years, 30 years,
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a lot of us looked at arm wrestling, I think it's,
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I mean, as something you could kind of do.
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And he's the first guy who's like,
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if you want to get better at arm wrestling,
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you got to arm wrestle.
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And it seems so simple, but you know,
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he answered so many questions that all of us had
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about techniques in the sport, back in a pre video internet.
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He's been everybody's target for like 40 years.
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So in terms of strength, there's a power in terms of skill.
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What did he teach the sport of arm wrestling?
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So if you look, how did the sport change
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from 80s, 90s to the aughts?
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You were at the top of the world for many years.
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Many argue you're still at the very top of the world.
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But like you were very dominant, both left and right hand
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in, I don't know, 2008 to 2013, something like that.
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So how did that sport evolve to today?
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So it's hard for me to comment, you know, prior to,
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you know, when I came to the sport was kind of mid nineties.
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Like I've been arm wrestling my whole life,
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but I wasn't really involved in the sport to a major degree
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until probably, you know, mid nineties.
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But I'll say that before the mid nineties,
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it was really hard to get good at arm wrestling.
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Everybody was doing it wrong, really.
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Like it was really rare to find people
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who were technically good arm wrestlers.
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It was very underground.
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You know, when I got into sport,
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it was a flyer that came in the mail.
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You had to know somebody who knew you.
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You had to know somebody who knew somebody
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who knew somebody, and then you go to a club
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and you can't do anything with these people.
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And they knew how to arm wrestle.
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They did, but real masters were rare.
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And you know, then internet helped everybody.
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Communication, the transfer of knowledge
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became so much faster.
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People became technically, you know, invested.
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People started to train, sharing ideas.
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By, I'd say, 2000 and,
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well, probably around the turn of the millennia,
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I'd say that professional leagues started to slowly pick up.
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More organized, bigger productions.
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Started to attract more athletes.
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More people took it seriously.
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By 2010, I'd say there was another jump.
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More serious leagues, a little bit more money.
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By 2015, more major media.
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Like, people were investing a lot of money.
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Like, you know, millionaires, billionaires type of people
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were organizing events, setting up leagues.
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And yeah, I mean, the past five years,
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it's just blown up.
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The techniques, I mean, if I was to go back
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to when I started, you know, what took me
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10 or 15 years to learn?
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I mean, new guys are showing up
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and they've got it down in like a year.
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Well, the thing about it, the development of the sport,
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is it's, like I was telling you off mic,
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it's a battle of one versus one.
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And then that can turn into battle of nations,
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which, you know, there is.
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There's Canada, there's the United States,
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there's all the Eastern Europe, Russia, Georgia,
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That's what makes some of the greatest sports
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in Olympics great, like weightlifting.
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It's a battle of nations, not just a battle of individuals.
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And it's almost like these two humans
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represent the two nations.
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And I see that very much,
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we'll talk about your matches coming up,
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but there is that battle between North America
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and that other part of the world.
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Yeah, yeah, North America is very prized.
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You know, the North American champion
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is always highly sought after
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because they're typically the most famous.
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Even still when, you know, quite arguably,
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there's always somebody in Eastern Europe
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who's just monstrous.
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It's typically the North American athlete
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who's more recognized.
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By the way. Oh, yeah.
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We'll have a cup here with some maple syrup.
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Cheers, Lex. Cheers.
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We should probably show,
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you just downed that whole thing.
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No, no, no, I'm gonna sip it.
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I'm gonna sip it, you know?
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It's really good, right? That is delicious.
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That is. Canadian maple syrup.
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That's a perfect July day from Canada in a bottle, yeah.
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So you're on a total tangent.
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You are known for appreciating food
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in all kinds of ways,
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but one of the things you're known for is pancakes.
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That is, yeah, that's gone to a crazy place in the sport,
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Where did that originate?
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So, where that originated.
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When it went from like your actual love for pancakes
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Yeah, so I think what happened was.
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So I had a match with Michael Todd, big match.
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Michael, great champion.
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He's another guy who's, you know,
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he's never gonna get off the horse.
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You know, he's, Jesus.
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His elbow is a complete disaster.
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Probably one of the most loved and hated guys
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in the sport right now.
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Is it because of the King's move?
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Yeah, the King's move brings him a lot of hate.
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Not from me, not from a lot of people,
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but a lot of observers have a big problem
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with the King's move.
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What's wrong with being a little bit controversial?
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You know, I get so passionate about it.
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I get so angry, you know?
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Because there's this saying like,
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oh, can you beat him in a hook?
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Can you beat, man?
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That's all that matters.
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Just win and don't talk to me about anything else.
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If you can win with style, win with style,
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but don't talk to me about anything but winning.
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That's the priority.
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So you had this match with Michael Todd.
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So I was in a terrible place.
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I guess it was, I get so screwed up with the years.
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It's 2022 now, right?
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What are you talking about?
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I think it is actually 2030.
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We're way ahead of schedule.
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This was like a decade ago or no?
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No, this is like a year and a bit ago.
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Oh, this is very recent.
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Very recent, yeah.
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So I got really sick.
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Is that the match?
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Yeah, this is the match, right?
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So this match is for the Legacy Hammer.
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So we invented this thing called the Legacy Hammer
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and Michael took it from me in, I think, 2018.
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And then COVID shut everything down
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and Michael went overseas to try and set up,
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because at that time, Michael was a North American champion.
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He beat me and he went to Dubai
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and he organized this great big match with LeVon.
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And the whole thing fell apart.
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Organizers, leagues, wouldn't let it happen,
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but there was still an ability
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to have a match of significance happen.
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So Michael's like, who do you want?
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And I'm like, let's give Devin a rematch.
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And I'm like, yeah, yes.
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And I was really sick at the time.
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I had DVT, I had pulmonary embolism.
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I was mentally in a terrible place
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and I got offered the match
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and I just totally turned my life around.
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And I committed really hard.
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What happened in this match, by the way?
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Oh, I just totally destroyed him.
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I just beat the piss out of him.
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Michael's a good friend of mine, but.
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Yeah, there's a lot of camaraderie
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when you guys talked afterwards, it's great.
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But we fight like brothers,
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so we let each other really fight hard against each other.
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But so I was, I knew, I mean,
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strength and mass, they go hand in hand.
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And I committed to just getting as big
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and as strong as I could.
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And literally, I was eating pancakes every day.
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Bacon, pancakes, every sloppy bit
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of garbage food I could eat.
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I was trying to eat healthy also,
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but if there was garbage food, I'd eat it.
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What do you mean, bacon and pancakes isn't healthy?
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What are you talking about?
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But people should go watch, there's a video
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where you make the Canadian meal of bacon
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with some bacon cooking tips, water, that was interesting.
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And then obviously pancakes and maple syrup
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all over the whole thing.
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Yeah, you're making me very hungry.
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I've caused more diabetes than,
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probably gonna get in trouble karmically
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for making the world obese.
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You should probably write a book, The Pancake Diet.
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Yeah, I think I will do that one day.
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So you said mass and strength go hand in hand,
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just at a big level about arm wrestling,
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what's more important?
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Strength, power, endurance, skills, strategy,
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or mental toughness, how do these components
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all come into play in arm wrestling?
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They're all important.
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You can use everything and you can adjust your strategy
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based off of the tools that you have.
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I would say if I could pick ever just one thing
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to have more of, I would say that it would be strength.
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Gained while fighting.
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While actually arm wrestling, so not off the table.
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No, no, no, so you get stronger from arm wrestling.
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How do you get stronger from arm wrestling?
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In jiu jitsu and grappling, you can get good
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by training with people much technically worse than you.
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So with white belts and blue belts,
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it's actually beneficial because you get to work stuff out.
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But I wouldn't say it develops that intensity
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and power required to go against people at your level.
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So how do you balance that?
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Is it okay to go against people
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that are much weaker than you?
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Or do you really have to go against people
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at the same level?
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I think that a blended strategy is probably the best.
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I'd say kind of a rule is whatever you do,
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you get better at, right?
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So you wanna be kind of as precise as possible.
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You don't wanna get hurt.
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And it's just about investment.
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And the answer's not always the same.
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Things are gonna change.
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I am currently a big believer in what I call
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tower building, right?
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So you have to do a lot of volume to build a great tower.
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You need to have a ton, a ton of volume.
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So when you look at how to best build volume,
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you want to do workouts that aren't particularly challenging
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to make you feel good and do them so that
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when you add them all together, you get the biggest number.
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So many easy workouts a day that are specific as possible,
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in my opinion, is the best way to lay the foundation
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for an extreme peak.
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And precision, right?
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Like there's no more precise way to get strong
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at arm wrestling than arm wrestle.
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So how often can you arm wrestle?
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What's your training regimen?
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You've talked about this as the climb.
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What is the training process to get great at arm wrestling?
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Well, again, it's gonna depend on what level you're at.
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The answer at the beginning might not be the same.
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For me, a guy who's been doing it almost 30 years,
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I have to harvest.
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I have to harvest energy from clubs.
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I call it cosmic punch.
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Sorry to interrupt.
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You were here in Austin, Texas.
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You are in Austin, Texas, but you were at the,
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what was it called?
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And you had an awesome crowd.
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I got to interact with a lot of those guys.
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Yes, just amazing community, amazing human beings.
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I got to talk to Dmitry in Russian and in English.
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His wife is an engineer.
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He's a brilliant dude, but also one of the toughest,
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I guess, guys you faced there.
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But you faced, I don't know how many people.
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It must've been hundreds of matches.
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So the bar was full.
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Yeah, and that for me is a perfect training scenario.
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So if I go in and just kind of be,
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I'm like a lightning rod,
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and I just absorb everything that I can get from people,
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all their effort, that's perfect.
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I'm lucky because I'm in a place that I can handle it.
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If I was losing or failing, this would not be optimal.
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But because I'm strong enough,
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I've been doing it long enough that I can kind of absorb it
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without damaging me, this is perfect.
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I typically, when I'm training up for a very serious match,
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I'll try and do that three or four times a week.
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And then the days in between,
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I will just do blood flow rehab, blood flow rehab.
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I will never hit a PR, a record.
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I'll never do it anymore.
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A lot of things change, and that's why I say
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there's a lot of ways to do it.
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This is currently a system that's working very well for me.
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So when you say PR, you're not aggressively chasing a peak.
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You're just building and building and building.
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My only peak that I care about is for this cycle,
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That's my only PR.
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Let's talk about the 25th of June.
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Let's talk about Levan Siginashvili, the Georgian Hulk.
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Question number one, is it possible to beat him?
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He is widely acknowledged as the most powerful person
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in arm wrestling today.
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Everybody's beatable.
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Everybody's beatable.
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Levan is incredible.
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He is what this modern peak of arm wrestling represents.
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So for people who are just listening,
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we also have an overlay of a video
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of Levan going against Vitaliy Levin,
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another top three person in the world, perhaps,
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And Levan's the guy on the right, just big.
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And the aggression, I mean, actually,
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sort of underneath it all, he seems to be a teddy bear,
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but when he turns it on, it's raw power.
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He's the full package.
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Levan is, he represents the pinnacle.
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There's Dennis in the background.
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He's like, I wanna be back in there.
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Levan has a lot of bases covered.
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He's, I mean, he's curling 300 pounds with one arm.
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I mean, the strength that he shows for arm wrestling
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is so far ahead of the field.
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He's very, very strong.
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But it's absolutely possible.
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It's absolutely possible.
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The one thing that I'm confident about,
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well, I'd say there's two things.
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The two things I'm confident about
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is that I have more experience than he does.
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And experience counts for a lot.
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The other thing is my ability to breathe and recover.
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So if ever there's an opportunity for the tide to turn,
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that's, I think, where you'll never get it back.
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So I think if I can somehow find a hole in his game,
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So you want to hold off the initial assault of power
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and then worm out and to find the hole.
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And then, how much of that is mental?
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How much of it is just the physical ability to do
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for your muscles to have the endurance to hold off?
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I like to make the sport bigger.
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And a lot of things that most arm wrestlers
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believe the sport is,
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I always try and push those boundaries.
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So there is definitely a mental aspect to it
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when you're faced with something
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that you've never seen before.
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That's when things like experience comes in.
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He can become surprised.
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Where what's a surprise for him is routine for me.
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So my adjustments will be more precise, more accurate.
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Yeah, that's how I get in.
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That's how I get in.
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Yeah, I play a dirty game.
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So some of it, how important is confidence
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in the progression of the match?
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Is there ups and downs of confidence?
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Like, holy shit, I actually have a chance to win this.
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Holy shit, I'm winning this, you're done.
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There's some of my favorite moments.
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I don't know if those are fake or not
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in terms of your expressions,
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if it's fake until you make it.
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But whenever you shake your head or whatever,
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you make it apparent that you believe the match is finished.
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And I wonder if that gets in the head of the other person.
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When you start to actually,
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so I'm sure you're doing things,
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like precise, detailed things with your hands
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to also indicate that you believe they're fake.
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But you're facially just.
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Oh, that's right, because it's facing the other.
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So that's ultimately what the battle is about.
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It's like, you're done.
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You might as well give up.
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Commitment is so important in anything that you do, right?
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Like, I always kind of try and bring things
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to a level of commitment that's uncommon.
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I think that that's a lot of reasons why I do well,
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is because I just get so committed in the whole process.
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And by the time that I actually show up to fight,
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I sometimes just wish that they would kill me.
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I wish that they would,
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because that's how far I want to go.
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People talk about like, how committed are you to the match?
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If you're committed to the match and you lose,
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you should be hurt.
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I'm often unhappy when I lose a match
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and I don't have an injury.
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I'm like, damn, what the fuck?
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I feel like I didn't commit, you know?
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I don't know if you know Dan Gable as the wrestler.
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Oh yeah, he was on.
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He was on the podcast? Yeah.
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He talked about his whole career.
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He dreamed of working so hard that he can't get off the mat.
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And he's disappointed ultimately at the end of his career
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because he was always able to get off the mat
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on his own accord.
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So he wants to, yeah, leave it all on the mat
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just from exhaustion.
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So that's what commitment looks like.
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What is this process, what is this climb
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for probably the toughest match of your career?
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I would say the most epic match in arm wrestling history.
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I mean, it's really building up.
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You are, as you said, North America.
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That's, I mean, I think by accounts of many
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you're one of the greatest arm wrestlers ever.
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He is one of the scariest arm wrestlers ever.
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And so this match, by the way, where's it happening?
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It'll be in Dubai. In Dubai.
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June, so what does the climb look like?
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The climb for me, what I have to change in my life always,
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people talk about being a professional.
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I've always loved the sport.
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I've loved it like crazy, but to me,
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the path is about simplicity and removal of distractions.
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I do better and better the more I get rid of everything,
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nothing else, so that my life is just the goal,
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just the target and everything else is off the table.
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And that's where I need to get to, where there's nothing.
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There's nothing between me and him.
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And every single day you're putting in the volume.
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Every day, all day.
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Now you said you worked out.
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So yesterday you did hundreds of arm wrestling matches.
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And then today you said in the morning you still worked out.
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So what was that workout?
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So you're mixing up stuff where you're doing weights also?
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This morning, I try to really focus
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on what's administratively easy.
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That's a big part of me, everything I do.
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So I just travel with bands.
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Yeah, I got bands with me and it's rehabilitative in nature.
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So I'm really focusing on blood flow,
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feeling good, doing proper movements,
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but yeah, it's just a band workout in the hotel room.
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What does a band workout look like?
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So are you doing the arm wrestling movement?
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See what you did there?
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You want to bring him in.
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Yeah, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up into your center.
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You think what can you control out here?
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No, you bring everything close.
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Don't worry about pinning.
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Pinning happens once it's close to you.
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Pinning is, people always think about pinning.
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Don't think about pinning.
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How much of the body is a part of this, too?
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Like the core, the torso,
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because it feels like there's that almost like
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Mike Tyson punch power, right?
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Does it come from the hips, too, and the legs?
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It's definitely the whole body.
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It's definitely the whole body.
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Like everything is working.
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You're connected to the table at times,
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as far as your base.
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Sometimes your base is your feet,
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but a lot of times you can base off the table.
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So you can base off your hips, but I'll tell you,
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no arm wrestler cares about doing squats.
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No arm wrestler is doing planks.
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It's all about the forearm and the actions of the hand.
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That's always the limiting factor.
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You look at a guy like Oleg Zakh.
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Okay, do you know this guy?
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He's a total hell boy.
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He's my inspiration to what I call pumpkin training.
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What's pumpkin training?
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Probably we'll get into that,
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but I only train my right arm.
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Yeah, with homework.
link |
But back to full body, it is full body.
link |
My good friend Matt Mask, when he arm wrestled me,
link |
he actually blew his internal abductor in his leg.
link |
So yeah, people walk away from tournament.
link |
Their calves can be sore sometimes.
link |
You know, it happens.
link |
But no, oh, there he is right there.
link |
Oleg, he is a real life hell boy.
link |
He's like 170 pounds there.
link |
Yeah, he's totally crazy.
link |
That's you doing left right there.
link |
So by the way, Levan, you're going right.
link |
So can you say more about the mental side?
link |
Are you visualizing what it takes to beat him?
link |
Are you trying to get in his head?
link |
All of these things.
link |
So do you think it's possible to get in his head?
link |
There's definitely strategies that you can do
link |
depending on who it is you're facing.
link |
It's very good to know who it is you're fighting
link |
and choose the correct strategy mentally.
link |
But I always follow a process
link |
when it comes to my mental preparation.
link |
When I'm far away from an event,
link |
I just always build up my opponent,
link |
build them, I build them, I respect them.
link |
To a point where I almost start to fear them
link |
and start to believe that they'll beat me.
link |
And this is a very vital part of my preparation.
link |
And that's where I am right now with Levan.
link |
I just build them up into this thing that scares me.
link |
And it forces me to be responsible,
link |
because I don't want to lose, I want to win.
link |
So the greater my opponent,
link |
the greater I can build their worth in my mind,
link |
the more motivation it gives me.
link |
Then there comes a point when it changes.
link |
And then I start to degrade them.
link |
And yeah, that's when it normally starts to get fun.
link |
And normally by the time I face them,
link |
I just try and completely dominate
link |
from every interaction from start to finish.
link |
When in the actual moment of the match,
link |
like in the moments leading up to it,
link |
what's the feeling?
link |
Is it fear, is it confidence, anxiety?
link |
What's going through your mind?
link |
I love to fight, I love it, I always have.
link |
There's every day where you have the distractions of life,
link |
and then there's really living in the moment.
link |
It's whatever you love to do,
link |
and that's when you can really be free.
link |
I'm free when I'm fighting.
link |
So you put me in a good fight, and I just love it.
link |
And I don't think about the past,
link |
I don't think about the future,
link |
I just think about killing that dude in front of me,
link |
And just being intensely in the moment.
link |
Just right there, just fighting as hard as I can.
link |
Do you study the opponent?
link |
Have you, for this particular match,
link |
do you study videos of LeVon?
link |
I've seen everything.
link |
I've read everything.
link |
I get opinions from other people.
link |
I watch very closely, yeah.
link |
What do you make of his evolution?
link |
So he's grown in size,
link |
but also you've talked about his
link |
evolution technically as well.
link |
Then studying him.
link |
Since we're in the build your opponent
link |
to be terrifying stage, what makes him great?
link |
He's very impressive.
link |
The greatest thing about him is his strength.
link |
That's the thing that sets him apart from everyone.
link |
His strength, specialized strength.
link |
Exact strength for arm wrestling.
link |
I believe it's unmatched.
link |
Can we just linger on that word strength?
link |
What does strength mean?
link |
What does it feel like?
link |
Are we talking about bicep, shoulder?
link |
Are we talking about whatever controls the wrist?
link |
Is it the, how does strength manifest?
link |
When I touch your hand, when we grab arms,
link |
I feel like fuck, that's strong.
link |
There's control, right?
link |
What is that feeling?
link |
Where does that come from in arm wrestling?
link |
When you're at the top of the world,
link |
where does that come from?
link |
There's chains of strength.
link |
And in arm wrestling, this is like technical strength.
link |
And we use these technical chains to fight each other.
link |
The chains that I'll talk about is,
link |
so you'll talk, remember how we talked about the post,
link |
this upwards drive, this ability to close this angle?
link |
It can be used, it's a technical attack.
link |
It's also an attack that can be built with training.
link |
Just the ability to just drive upwards.
link |
There's a chain where you cup, right?
link |
Cup your wrist in.
link |
Cup your wrist in and the anchor and the chain
link |
brings you right to your heart, right to your center.
link |
This chain, and this can be done at any time.
link |
There's a pronation chain,
link |
and that's to turn your thumb over, right?
link |
Turn your thumb over and you attack
link |
the person's cupping chain.
link |
And there's a huge number of muscles
link |
involved in each of those chains.
link |
And that's why I say it's a chain, right?
link |
But they're movements, and these movements
link |
you can develop in the gym or through practice.
link |
So you don't mean, so it's easy to sort of
link |
interpret strength to mean how much you curl, essentially.
link |
But you mean the chain.
link |
It's all has to do with the.
link |
Right, and that's, I mean, people talk is it a bicep?
link |
I mean, yes, there's bicep for sure involved,
link |
but I'll always be inaccurate if I try and tell you
link |
what muscles are the, so I prefer to explain it
link |
in a movement and then everything that's involved
link |
to do that movement, right?
link |
Yeah, and Levan's movements for arm wrestling
link |
are incredibly impressive.
link |
What do you attribute to, how much of that is genetics?
link |
How much of it is some training thing he's doing?
link |
I think that Levan is very special in terms
link |
of his genetics, like not everybody can be Levan.
link |
There's not many Levans out there.
link |
But what I've encountered in the bias that I always see,
link |
like when people talk about people like Levan,
link |
they discount the other side so very quickly.
link |
And the thing is Levan rarely has to show the other side
link |
because he's so far ahead.
link |
You talk about the technical application of the sport,
link |
he so rarely needs to show it, but he's clearly incredible.
link |
If you watch his progression, he came up
link |
having very difficult technical struggles to overcome.
link |
Georgia is a great country for arm wrestling.
link |
Like there's this guy, Gennady Kvikvinia,
link |
who no one would ever say is not technical.
link |
And you know, it took him years to defeat him
link |
to a point where now it's not even a discussion.
link |
Yeah, you talk about the progression,
link |
they had a lot of battles together over the years.
link |
It's fascinating to see the tides turn.
link |
Oh yeah, and once they've turned,
link |
it's like completely, completely different level.
link |
Yeah, I mean, he's got strength, he's got technique.
link |
Some people will argue that his technique is flawed.
link |
At times, they've shown matches where
link |
he hasn't shown the best technique, but he's still won.
link |
And I think sometimes he just plays with people.
link |
You know, like there's a famous match that he had with,
link |
they call him the Bruce Lee of arm wrestling,
link |
a guy called Angurbaev, Kurtagali Angurbaev.
link |
He's, they had a match in the top eight, great match.
link |
Kurtagali is like 220 pound guy from Kazakhstan,
link |
brilliant technician, but power wise,
link |
you know, not in the same world.
link |
And Kurtagali did well, even though he lost six nothing,
link |
he still did well, but in my opinion, Levan didn't care.
link |
Levan was like grabbing him low and just like, whatever.
link |
Like, I will show him things that he's not seen before.
link |
And he hasn't competed often in this rule set,
link |
which will be a challenge for him.
link |
But yeah, what can I say?
link |
Like Levan, he's Everest.
link |
Yeah, you are seen by basically everybody
link |
as the big, big underdog.
link |
But you're also, even in the Eastern,
link |
even, I mean, I talk to Russians a lot.
link |
You know that moment in Rocky
link |
when they start cheering for Rocky?
link |
You're kind of the, they love you, they want you to win.
link |
And just, you know, it's not even,
link |
just the battle itself is inspiring.
link |
And it's like the culmination in your career
link |
because it's, you know, you're at the top for a long time,
link |
but it's like, it's almost like it should be over for you,
link |
but no, you're returning.
link |
It is like this big moment.
link |
I will be the pointy end of the spear for North America.
link |
Well, let's, thanks for bringing that match up.
link |
Let's talk about just the match against Dennis,
link |
your left hand match.
link |
He's also terrifying and seen as one of the strongest,
link |
probably one of, if not the strongest
link |
left hand arm wrestler.
link |
There's a lot to be said there.
link |
Maybe you could talk about this match at a high level.
link |
Why did you take on this match?
link |
Why did you do the left hand versus the right hand?
link |
What, can you tell the story?
link |
Okay, Dennis the Plankoff.
link |
There's so much about this match.
link |
Yeah, Russian guy.
link |
Russian, I used to call him Dennis Chernobyl.
link |
Ah, what a monster.
link |
He kind of led, I'd say, this new era of arm wrestling,
link |
where the super heavyweight strength level
link |
has just gone through the roof.
link |
I wanted the match for such a long time.
link |
We tried to get the match.
link |
We couldn't get it organized.
link |
This is back in like 2008 to 2012.
link |
Couldn't get the match, couldn't get the match.
link |
I've always been more of a one on one puller.
link |
He was doing the tournament format.
link |
I was ranked number one in the world,
link |
and towards the end, it kind of was very undecided.
link |
I ended up getting surgery.
link |
I ended up abandoning the super heavyweight division.
link |
I went down to the 225s for a few years.
link |
WAL failed, temporarily.
link |
So the 225 pound division was scrapped.
link |
And I said, okay, I'm going to go for the big crown once again.
link |
And I started to go after super heavyweights.
link |
The 2018 season was right hand.
link |
I started to enter negotiations to have the match with him.
link |
We'd been chasing the match for 10 years.
link |
They wanted to do a left hand.
link |
I wanted to do a right hand.
link |
I just wanted to do the match.
link |
I wanted to do the match with Dennis.
link |
I wanted to meet Dennis.
link |
So people should know that you were,
link |
the right hand has always been your strongest.
link |
It has been, I mean, I had surgery in 2016.
link |
I hate to make excuses.
link |
Dennis was better than me that day, even on my best day.
link |
If you had gone back my entire career,
link |
at no single day do I beat Dennis De Plankhoff in 2018.
link |
I would like to think that I could maybe do it now.
link |
But at that point, there would have been no version
link |
that could have beat him.
link |
No, I'm curious about the right, but left hand.
link |
Well, it might still happen.
link |
But Dennis completely destroyed me.
link |
And I learned a lot from it.
link |
I think before the Dennis match, I think I was, I don't know.
link |
I don't know exactly what words to use.
link |
Maybe I felt like my thinking was a little bit elitist.
link |
And I really learned a lot.
link |
I was really humbled that day by how far, and how professional,
link |
and how prepared Dennis was, and how seriously he
link |
There's a mental, a slightly terrifying calmness
link |
to him, which only comes with extreme preparation, I think.
link |
His level of dedication was extremely inspiring to me.
link |
I used to do a job where it was serious enough
link |
that the price could be death.
link |
And I arm wrestled throughout that entire period.
link |
And I always kind of looked at the cost of doing an activity,
link |
being death, limited to soldiering.
link |
And I kind of changed my mind a lot after that match.
link |
I realized that anything that you're in love with,
link |
once you get far enough down the road,
link |
and professional enough at it, it's going to kill you.
link |
Doesn't matter what you're doing, if you're crazy enough
link |
about anything, it's probably going to take your life
link |
from you in some way.
link |
And that doesn't mean you rush towards death.
link |
It's just your level of investment and level of risk
link |
can have some catastrophic effects.
link |
Bukowski, Charles Bukowski, I think
link |
has the quote, do what you love and let it kill you.
link |
And I understood that Dennis's level of professionalism
link |
far exceeded mine in what we were doing at the time.
link |
And I realized that I was no longer employed.
link |
I was now in the world of professional arm wrestling.
link |
And I realized that what was I doing?
link |
How serious was I?
link |
So Dennis is an incredible guy.
link |
Is there moments in that match, there's
link |
humility there, too, from him.
link |
That was a fascinating sort of, it
link |
seemed like you realized that you just hit a wall
link |
and you were not ready enough for it.
link |
It was incredible.
link |
There was so many things that I remember about the Dennis
link |
I mean, I remember seeing videos of somebody
link |
and then meeting them in person, it's different.
link |
I remember in the weigh ins, sorry, not the weigh ins,
link |
the standoff that we did before the match.
link |
I'm looking at him, I'm close.
link |
I'm looking at his arms.
link |
And his bicep, it looked like an ass.
link |
It was like a freaking glute muscle.
link |
Like his entire structure was so sinewy and just so strong.
link |
I was like, wow, he's physically so impressive.
link |
And I remember when I arm wrestled him at a certain time,
link |
he allowed me to kind of set my position.
link |
You can't really tell because it happens very quickly.
link |
But he let me set my position, which
link |
means I kind of got my locks in, where you can kind of really
link |
And he just ripped through me.
link |
So you were able to get this great position.
link |
So it was tore right through me.
link |
And the first time I ever thought
link |
that I had torn something.
link |
I thought, after the match, I'm like,
link |
geez, did he rip my chest right in half?
link |
No, I think it was 100%.
link |
Yeah, no, I didn't actually.
link |
Nothing went purple or anything.
link |
But yeah, the strength gap was very significant with Dennis.
link |
Could he, what would it take to beat him on that day?
link |
It would take me just being a little bit stronger and more
link |
My left was not as healthy as it should be.
link |
I didn't have a full rounded technical arsenal.
link |
It takes a time after surgery.
link |
You can be good, but after a surgery, like what I had,
link |
you're probably looking at three or four years
link |
before you're starting to hit technical proficiency
link |
the way you should be.
link |
And yeah, just a bit stronger.
link |
How do you interpret the calmness on his face?
link |
Well, what is that about?
link |
Is he actually that calm or is he just trained?
link |
It's a Russian thing, I think.
link |
I see a lot of Russians like that.
link |
And I'm such a fan of Russia.
link |
I really want to go to Moscow.
link |
I've been saying it forever.
link |
You've never been?
link |
I want to just go and live there for a month and just train.
link |
Moscow has got such a crazy arm wrestling scene.
link |
From what I understand, they just have so many clubs.
link |
There's so many strong athletes.
link |
Just go and just lightning rod.
link |
Have you considered doing something of that sort?
link |
It's like Rocky IV again.
link |
And lead up to June.
link |
I would certainly consider it.
link |
I've got only one trip planned at the moment.
link |
Administration is very important.
link |
What do you mean by administration?
link |
Like managing your time?
link |
Yeah, the management has to be very efficient.
link |
When I'm a tourist, when I'm a visitor,
link |
a little bit of that goes down.
link |
When I'm at my home and things are familiar,
link |
I've got a really great grasp on my time.
link |
Everything's in place.
link |
Everything's perfect.
link |
If I could magically transport Moscow into my hometown
link |
and just go out and visit them, yeah.
link |
So it's very difficult when you're traveling.
link |
You have to figure out what you're eating,
link |
how are you getting the food, all the socializing.
link |
Plus, you're more and more a celebrity,
link |
so there's a social interaction, which
link |
I don't know how draining that could be on you
link |
outside of the arm wrestling table.
link |
So you have to manage all of that,
link |
because ultimately, you have to focus on the fight ahead.
link |
Yeah, a lot of my strength comes from just
link |
being in a familiar place, doing my routine.
link |
I love to get out there and meet people and new experiences.
link |
But when I just want to really prepare for a big match,
link |
yeah, home is where I get strong.
link |
So that loss against Dennis was one
link |
of the few losses in your career.
link |
How did that feel in the moments after, in the days after,
link |
in the months after, in the years after?
link |
How has it changed you as an arm wrestler as a human being?
link |
Well, it's tough to lose.
link |
I actually was really happy to lose to Dennis,
link |
because sometimes when you lose a match,
link |
there's a lot of matches that I've lost where they upset me,
link |
because I know I made a mistake.
link |
I didn't make a mistake with Dennis.
link |
He was just way better.
link |
There's nothing I could have done that day.
link |
I'm really at peace with it.
link |
Dennis, to me, was just a big inspiration.
link |
I think that me arm wrestling Dennis left handed that day
link |
just let me touch probably one of the strongest
link |
human beings on the arm wrestling table
link |
that's ever lived, left handed.
link |
So knowing that's possible is almost like inspiration to you
link |
that I can be at that level, too.
link |
Seeing what Dennis did, just trying
link |
to absorb a little bit of his knowledge planted seeds in me.
link |
When I look at my career, it's a bit like the stock market.
link |
But for sure, I'm trending upwards.
link |
And since really kind of wrapping my mind
link |
around some of the Russian philosophies,
link |
they really changed my training systems.
link |
There were some base philosophies
link |
that they talked to me about over there
link |
that massively impacted my training.
link |
Is it possible to convert some of those philosophies
link |
Can you describe some of the ideas they taught you?
link |
Man, it takes a while to break the ice
link |
with a lot of these guys.
link |
Well, once you do, that's the deepest bonds you can form.
link |
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
link |
I think that I was raised under, I believe it's a flawed.
link |
I mean, it's not flawed, because it has its value as well.
link |
But it's best if you understand both philosophies.
link |
I think a North American thing that's
link |
just so ingrained in our fitness society is no pain, no gain.
link |
And just pushing, and sweating, and going harder,
link |
and fighting through, and grit, and tough.
link |
And then you talk to the Russians,
link |
and they're like, yeah, never fail.
link |
Never go to failure.
link |
It should always feel good.
link |
And those two philosophies express themselves
link |
And if you want to get strong, yeah, don't fail.
link |
So they also are believers of volume.
link |
Yeah, there's a lot of strategies,
link |
but volume is a massive principle.
link |
And volume is very hard to achieve
link |
when you're believing in no pain, no gain.
link |
They don't really go together.
link |
No pain, no gain, more injuries.
link |
So is there parallels?
link |
Because in wrestling, some of the greatest wrestlers
link |
of all time are Russian.
link |
And they were big, Dan Gable talks about it,
link |
they were big on play.
link |
Like, lighter wrestling is probably,
link |
ultimately, actually, it boils down to
link |
that's how you achieve higher volume.
link |
Like, over the stretch of years,
link |
the way to reduce injury.
link |
I mean, in wrestling also, technique
link |
might have greater value than it does in arm wrestling.
link |
Obviously, technique is extremely important
link |
But power can defeat technique, it seems like.
link |
In wrestling, you can get away.
link |
There's a lot of ways you can really do sneak attacks,
link |
sort of use leverage on those kinds of things.
link |
So there's even more incentive to do play
link |
and all that kind of stuff.
link |
But do you see the parallels between the two worlds,
link |
wrestling and arm wrestling?
link |
Well, you saw what I did the other night, right?
link |
So I'm playing on the table for hours, right?
link |
So that's my number one training thing that I do,
link |
is I go on the table for hours and I play.
link |
Yeah, when you did, Sergey, can you pull up that video?
link |
It's on Devin's channel, the water tank one.
link |
Oh, it's like 180p.
link |
It's like, the wifi in there was so bad.
link |
It's great, I love it.
link |
It's, maybe, I don't know if it was fish eye,
link |
but it had a fish eye feel, it was crowded.
link |
I mean, so much camaraderie, it was amazing.
link |
But maybe just a brief mention of Dimitri,
link |
What, in that play, what are some memorable things here?
link |
Like, when you go against a bunch of different people,
link |
a bunch of strangers, what are all the differences
link |
and how do you grow from them, how do you learn from them?
link |
Well, everybody's a bit different.
link |
So, I love to go to new clubs,
link |
because the energy's always high.
link |
Like, the first time you go to a club,
link |
everybody's trying to kill you.
link |
Yeah, so they're gonna.
link |
There's excitement and there's this,
link |
and so you feed off of that.
link |
Yeah, you do, you can, if you're able to be strong enough
link |
to absorb it without injury, it's awesome, it's awesome.
link |
Because they're giving you everything they can.
link |
Right, so it's very specific, right?
link |
Like, I'm gonna get way stronger at arm wrestling.
link |
And what I try and do, when I go to these places,
link |
is I make an assumption, I make an assumption
link |
that I'm the best guy there.
link |
And so, I'll arm wrestle in a way that kind of protects them,
link |
because the more I can protect them
link |
and kind of keep them kind of in a good position,
link |
they can actually give me more, right?
link |
So, I kind of give them little pieces
link |
that I think will put them in a place
link |
that they can really give me more.
link |
And so, yeah, that's what I'm doing.
link |
And then, when I see somebody like Dimitri,
link |
I pull that in a little bit, right?
link |
So, okay, so I know Dimitri's the number one guy in Texas.
link |
Lots of respect to the guy.
link |
I won't give him all the pieces
link |
until I really kind of gauge where he's at,
link |
because I certainly, in training, don't wanna fail.
link |
I don't want that, I don't want to.
link |
When you fail in arm wrestling,
link |
imagine it's just bad technique.
link |
And you're trying, and bad technique,
link |
you're gonna get hurt, yeah.
link |
So, you always want to be in a strong position here.
link |
What about, how does endurance come into play here?
link |
And here's video of you strapping up with Dimitri.
link |
How do you, I mean, you went for like, I don't know,
link |
Yeah, it was long.
link |
So, this first run of the video, I think,
link |
was a little over an hour, and then I took a break,
link |
and I probably did another 45 minutes or so, but.
link |
I mean, do you, how can, are you okay
link |
with the endurance aspect of this?
link |
Yeah, that's probably, like, when you talk
link |
to the arm wrestling world, that's probably
link |
what I'm best known for, is my endurance.
link |
So, this helps build that.
link |
It does, but that's not why I'm doing it.
link |
I'm doing it to get strong.
link |
In my opinion, this is one of the best ways to get strong,
link |
especially far away from a tournament,
link |
or any kind of an event.
link |
I wouldn't wanna do this, you know, even a month,
link |
or even six weeks, or even, maybe even eight weeks
link |
before a big event.
link |
I'd want to already be kind of shrinking my volume,
link |
but far away from an event, yeah, as much volume
link |
as your body can handle, and you'll feel it.
link |
Like, I felt it at times, like, you know,
link |
after the hour mark, I'm like, okay,
link |
I can feel my blood sugar kind of diminishing.
link |
I can feel, like, the blood that's going to my muscles
link |
is kinda like, it's not really pushing more good stuff in.
link |
It's, I'm starting to break down, and you don't want that.
link |
You don't want that.
link |
I'm good, I'm good.
link |
I'll maybe get a sweater, it's a bit.
link |
Does that care for kind of continuity?
link |
I can make it warmer.
link |
No, no, no, I'll just put a sweater on,
link |
it's fine, but that doesn't matter.
link |
And I still love the idea of you going to Russia.
link |
And training there.
link |
I'm also making a trip out to Russia.
link |
For different reasons.
link |
Well, it's hard with the current conflict,
link |
the tensions there, but I'm hoping before your match,
link |
actually, so May, for a couple of interviews
link |
with a couple of folks, some of which people know.
link |
Maybe I could ask you about,
link |
to comment on some matches that stand out to you
link |
Is there something, is there a particular,
link |
I have a bunch that I really enjoy,
link |
but is there something that stands out to you as memorable?
link |
We talked about sort of a defining loss, perhaps,
link |
Then you faced Michael Todd, like you mentioned,
link |
John Brzenk, you faced Matt.
link |
Is there something that stands out to you
link |
that technically or psychologically
link |
you've learned a lot from?
link |
I feel like I try and learn something from every match,
link |
but there is a very special match to me
link |
that to this day, I can't explain.
link |
Very weird phenomenon.
link |
So, I think it was 2005 was my first combat tour overseas.
link |
So, it was a active tour.
link |
Among other things, I got shot during that tour,
link |
we got blown, long tour, rough tour.
link |
And I trained the whole time through
link |
knowing that at the end of this,
link |
I was gonna have a big match.
link |
So, there's a champion, a guy called Ron Bath.
link |
He's kind of, if there was no John Brzenk,
link |
there would be Ron Bath.
link |
Okay, so, extremely decorated,
link |
unbelievable arm wrestler from the United States.
link |
And this is kind of when I was just
link |
kind of coming up in the sport still.
link |
I was fairly well established,
link |
I was definitely the best guy in Canada.
link |
And I had been for a few years,
link |
but I hadn't really expanded internationally too much.
link |
So, I had a one on one match with Ron Bath
link |
and that's the one.
link |
Yeah, extremely hard fought battle.
link |
Was three one, I think, three one,
link |
but every match was really close
link |
and he won the first one.
link |
And I had to kind of dig my way out of the trenches
link |
and ended up coming back and winning.
link |
But it was a match that was probably,
link |
it was probably one of my closest matches ever.
link |
It seems like there's frustration on you.
link |
What was going through your mind here with these?
link |
Was it, first of all, going in,
link |
did you think you could beat him?
link |
What was the level of confidence?
link |
I always think I can win, like I always do.
link |
But, you know, a lot of respect to the guy.
link |
But yeah, I mean, I always think I can do it.
link |
So how did, what lessons did you take away from it?
link |
Why is it so meaningful to you?
link |
Well, it's what happened afterwards.
link |
So, I had some kind of a release afterwards.
link |
And that was the strange thing to me.
link |
So, match ended and I felt like,
link |
so relaxed afterwards, so calm, so, so, you know, satisfied.
link |
Because it was one of those matches
link |
that kind of takes everything from you, but you win it.
link |
And I was relaxing in the chair
link |
and I've never had this sensation before.
link |
I've never had it afterwards,
link |
but it's like the center of my backbone just exploded.
link |
And it was like, it's so weird, right?
link |
Cause I'm not really spiritual that much or religious even,
link |
but it's like a fire just ripped through me
link |
and it only lasted an instant.
link |
Just exploded through my whole body,
link |
out the top, through my feet.
link |
And then it was gone, that was it.
link |
Weirdest thing I've ever felt in my entire life.
link |
Yeah, but it was as a result of,
link |
yeah, but it was as a result of what happened in the match
link |
and leading up to it, I had some kind of a release.
link |
To what it does, it almost,
link |
how did you interpret it psychologically?
link |
Was it like some kind of, I mean,
link |
not to be spiritual or whatever,
link |
but some kind of superpower that was like,
link |
like a lingering feeling like, holy shit, I, you know.
link |
I can't, I can't explain it.
link |
And I haven't really tried hard enough to try to.
link |
But something changed.
link |
Something happened there, yeah.
link |
Something happened to me.
link |
I was sore for about three or four months afterwards.
link |
It's like it smoked out my entire body.
link |
Yeah, that whole summer I was kind of sore.
link |
And yeah, and then after that,
link |
like two or three years later,
link |
that's when I won the world championships.
link |
Yeah, I mean, all the matches are,
link |
you know, you get something from people, like, you know,
link |
you study them, you take something from them.
link |
People have an invisible crown and he had one.
link |
And I think I took it from him.
link |
Maybe that was the feeling of wearing the crown.
link |
What about all the trash talk?
link |
How much of that did you learn?
link |
Does that come naturally to you?
link |
You're one of the most charismatic, fun.
link |
I mean, there's always like respect behind it.
link |
I would say to me, and I'm a fan of a lot of sports,
link |
you're one of the greatest trash talkers in all of sports
link |
that I've ever seen because you're able to talk shit,
link |
but there's so much love and respect behind it.
link |
It's just masterful.
link |
But you also get into people's heads in the moment.
link |
It's beautiful to watch
link |
because it really gets to some people.
link |
So where does that come from?
link |
It's a powerful weapon, right?
link |
Your voice is a powerful, powerful weapon.
link |
And it's underutilized by so many athletes
link |
because they think that it's not sportsmanlike
link |
or something like that.
link |
But the truth is, I mean, you can be a weak person,
link |
but with your voice, you can influence
link |
and change any number of things.
link |
And the same thing happens in a fight between two people.
link |
If you can just be a never ending, you know,
link |
flow of negative encouragement to someone
link |
or, you know, suggestion, anything can happen.
link |
And when you're fighting a person,
link |
you're not just fighting them.
link |
You're fighting everyone who's watching.
link |
You're fighting the crowd, the referees.
link |
And, you know, to get in the most ideal positions,
link |
situations, you need to use your voice, yeah.
link |
Yeah, and there's, for people who haven't seen,
link |
I definitely recommend you watch
link |
a bunch of arm wrestling matches
link |
because there's a crowd really gets into it.
link |
And it feels like there's a really intimate connection
link |
I suppose because the crowd is allowed
link |
to be very close to you.
link |
I want the crowd like right up on me.
link |
So sometimes, oh yeah.
link |
So who are you, whenever you talk to somebody,
link |
you literally pick somebody from the crowd?
link |
Oh yeah, I'll fucking, like I'll start fucking off
link |
his fans and like, yeah, like I'll start talking
link |
to their wives or whatever.
link |
Yeah, yeah, there's Jody.
link |
She's pretty dangerous to listen to also.
link |
But yeah, one of his buddies, Mike Solares,
link |
who's, you know, really good arm wrestler,
link |
was cheering for him, so I started to go after him.
link |
Smiling the whole time.
link |
Yeah, it's fun, right?
link |
It's a fan, it's fun to listen to,
link |
but it's also, what's fun is how much it actually affects
link |
some of the people you're facing.
link |
They get frustrated.
link |
It's great to see.
link |
Well, you have to fight, right?
link |
Like a lot of people think things will be given to them.
link |
And the thing that, you know, I've always believed
link |
from the time I was very young,
link |
like I was convinced that our inevitable death
link |
was gonna come from aliens, right?
link |
Like some super aggressive, super violent species
link |
was gonna come and smoke us all, you know?
link |
And I'm like, I'm not like that.
link |
I'm like, but as soon as one person is,
link |
then you're forced to have to accept it as reality, right?
link |
So I like to fight for every single thing.
link |
I like to try and be more and more aggressive.
link |
And if someone matches me,
link |
that's when I can use my endurance.
link |
And if they don't, then I have the tactical advantage.
link |
So that's kind of my balance point.
link |
And then, by the way, you also yell at the ref.
link |
I mean, the games, there's like levels to this game,
link |
but you know, the feeling sometimes
link |
when people get frustrated is like,
link |
okay, this person's cheating,
link |
or like you're trying to get a good grip
link |
And I think some of the frustration
link |
in combination with the trash talk is,
link |
well, this person is cheating,
link |
but everybody is like kind of trying to cheat,
link |
get an edge within the rules.
link |
So I try and just ramp it, ramp it, ramp it.
link |
But you know, everybody's different.
link |
I've learned how to play the game
link |
based off of the tools that I have physically.
link |
And for me, this works because, you know,
link |
my genetic makeup is more of a persistence hunter, right?
link |
So like, I need to extend things,
link |
and that works well for me.
link |
You know, if I was more explosive,
link |
I probably wouldn't have the same strategies.
link |
By the way, for people who are watching,
link |
you're wearing a No Limits hoodie,
link |
which is one of your nicknames.
link |
I don't wash this thing too much.
link |
It's my bacterial shield to the world.
link |
So you mentioned Jody.
link |
She's often in your corner
link |
and does perhaps more trash talking than even you.
link |
So I mean, if we could step away,
link |
she's an incredible human being.
link |
As sort of as a fan, it's fun to watch the two of you,
link |
both when you're arm wrestling and just as people.
link |
I just see so much, I don't know,
link |
kindness and love radiating from the two of you
link |
whenever you're trash talking
link |
or talking about just random things
link |
or just talking about life.
link |
It's just a beautiful thing to watch.
link |
And thank you for sharing that with the world.
link |
But maybe can you, she paid me to ask you this,
link |
but what are the things you love about Jody,
link |
your wife, Jody Laird?
link |
What are the ways she's affected your life?
link |
Jody and I go way back, right?
link |
We were in high school together.
link |
The thing that I admire most in people is bravery.
link |
To me, it's the most admirable quality.
link |
And Jody always has inspired me
link |
because she's such a fighter.
link |
If she believes that something's true,
link |
she does not back down.
link |
And not to say that she can't change her mind
link |
because she can, but while she is convicted,
link |
she will not stop fighting.
link |
She's pulled me out of the fire repeatedly.
link |
We've lived through so many things.
link |
How has she made you a better arm wrestler?
link |
Yeah, I could see your videos of your house
link |
basically coming apart when she's not there.
link |
Yeah, without Jody, I'm on the street living in a tent
link |
and yeah, eating dog food.
link |
How has love made you stronger?
link |
Now we're gonna make Devin uncomfortable.
link |
Yeah, love is difficult to accept.
link |
Love is one of those things that,
link |
a lot of times, you don't feel worthy of it.
link |
And so it's hard sometimes to accept someone's love.
link |
And someone who really loves you,
link |
they'll love you even when you don't.
link |
And here you go, you're gonna make me cry, Alex.
link |
Yeah, Jody and I have been through so much.
link |
And she's shown me how she supported me
link |
just repeatedly, repeatedly.
link |
Some of that is loyalty and patience and perseverance
link |
and all those things.
link |
That's like when love really shows itself.
link |
It's like sticking through together for years
link |
even when you're through the shitty times.
link |
Love and faith are powerful forces in this universe.
link |
Without them, we can descend into darkness very quickly.
link |
As a world, even between people.
link |
When love and faith is destroyed, then we fall apart.
link |
And I've been graced by the love that Jody's given me.
link |
It's allowed me to continue to build.
link |
When you have love between people, then you build together.
link |
I love my family, I love Canada,
link |
I love the arm wrestling community.
link |
I have a love for what we're trying to achieve
link |
as a human species, you know?
link |
And when that falls apart, we don't have much.
link |
Yeah, just with my boy there, yeah.
link |
You also mentioned you once had a job
link |
where your death was a real possibility.
link |
So you were in the Canadian Special Forces.
link |
What did you take away from that experience,
link |
that time in your life?
link |
It was such a great life.
link |
Really, really loved it.
link |
Honestly, I never wanted to leave.
link |
I never thought I would leave.
link |
I thought I'd be there my whole life.
link |
A real honor to get to serve.
link |
What did you get to do?
link |
What was the things you loved craftsmanship wise,
link |
like fun things you get to do, learn and challenge yourself?
link |
And you mentioned sort of honor in terms of the serving part.
link |
Yeah, my favorite thing about serving in the Special Forces
link |
was for sure the people that I worked with.
link |
That's probably the first thing I could say, you know,
link |
I never, I always felt like totally comfortable
link |
and putting my life in the other guy's hands.
link |
I was so happy to be in a place where I felt I could follow.
link |
Like didn't matter.
link |
Like I knew that the people ahead of me were incredible.
link |
I knew the people beside me were incredible.
link |
So just having that faith in your team, it's very special.
link |
And to know that they're there for a reason
link |
that has nothing to do with money, you know,
link |
and that's what kind of brings everybody together
link |
is you're there for a higher purpose.
link |
And in terms of being an adrenaline junkie,
link |
there's nothing like it.
link |
I mean, there's nothing like, you know,
link |
going out at night and fighting.
link |
And when I say fighting, like my whole life I wanted to fight.
link |
And to me, there's a lot of, and look at,
link |
I've said this in the past
link |
and I think it's been a personal failure of mine
link |
because I've said things like,
link |
it's the highest level that you can do.
link |
And I don't believe that to be true anymore.
link |
But at the time, I thought it was the best way
link |
I could express my drives that I had, you know,
link |
So your sense in the past and maybe in part now
link |
is that sort of fighting is when humans get a chance
link |
to express themselves deeply, like that mix of the bravery,
link |
the integrity, the, whatever that is that makes us human,
link |
that human spirit can really shine.
link |
And I don't believe that anymore.
link |
I believe that you can do that in any field,
link |
in any discipline, you know, if you go hard enough,
link |
it all kind of starts to feel the same.
link |
But at the time, that, you know,
link |
expression to me was really, really awesome.
link |
I loved close quarter battle.
link |
That was my favorite thing.
link |
That's really the whole reason I was there.
link |
Can you describe close quarter battle?
link |
Close quarter battle is team fighting.
link |
So, and it can look a lot of different ways,
link |
but basically it's ground troops doing something
link |
and it's ground troops doing some kind of a mission.
link |
And it's the orchestrated movement that is the skill.
link |
The orchestrated movement and the drills done quickly
link |
and accurately, it's very difficult to do.
link |
With communication?
link |
With communication.
link |
Yeah, so it's basically cooperating together,
link |
communicating, there's some strategy,
link |
there's some adapting to the changing environment.
link |
And the more the team works together,
link |
the less communication there is.
link |
And that's an amazing thing to do,
link |
to be part of a machine, well, machine,
link |
a team of people who can fight together like that.
link |
I think it's, we're really designed to do it.
link |
Like, as good as we can fight as individuals,
link |
the thing that makes us really good
link |
is our ability to fight as a team.
link |
Yeah, that's one of the things that makes us really human
link |
is that collective intelligence, that social aspect.
link |
And fighting is the highest of stakes.
link |
So that social interaction under the highest of stakes
link |
is, really does bring out something that's deeply human.
link |
I mean, war in general brings out something deeply human.
link |
It's, I mean, obvious to say that it's tragic
link |
that it results in so much loss of life and well being.
link |
Let me, if it's okay, for a brief moment
link |
to take us back to arm wrestling.
link |
We did this offline, we talked about,
link |
you gave me some advice about arm wrestling.
link |
But maybe do a high level overview
link |
of the different styles and strategies
link |
that we've talked about.
link |
We talked about the importance of strength and power.
link |
But is there offensive, defensive styles?
link |
Is there, we mentioned King's move.
link |
What would you classify your style as?
link |
It's nice for people that don't know.
link |
Maybe even zoom back out.
link |
So arm wrestling is a sport where two people have to,
link |
when we talk about strictly the sport,
link |
put their elbow on a particular pad,
link |
means they have to keep that elbow on that pad.
link |
And they win when the back of one of their hands
link |
crosses some kind of, or basically touches the table.
link |
And when you actually lock up, you do so,
link |
depending on the organization, without straps,
link |
meaning there's just you, agree, it's like mutual agreement
link |
that you're going to clasp your hands in a way that's fair
link |
and there's a referee that helps ensure that it's fair.
link |
But of course there's these little games going on.
link |
And then when you actually go all out with this battle,
link |
if there's no straps, you can slip out.
link |
So often you'll put the straps, which means you're,
link |
it's like marriage, you're committed for,
link |
like somebody will have to lose essentially.
link |
There's no pulling out.
link |
So that's sort of the battle within that.
link |
What are the different styles that you can speak to
link |
that people that don't know arm wrestling could understand?
link |
Yeah, we can start to kind of just dance
link |
around the subject a bit.
link |
I'd say there's a lot of different types.
link |
There's specialists and there's kind of blenders
link |
and people who are very versatile.
link |
A lot of guys win world championships on one singular move.
link |
They get just extremely crisp at say a hook or a top roll.
link |
And their style is very kind of focused.
link |
And you'll see it with a lot of athletes,
link |
like kind of a talk about guy who's very active,
link |
a guy called Jerry Cataret.
link |
As soon as you think Jerry Cataret,
link |
he's got a very unique style.
link |
He's got a flop wrist press.
link |
So most of his technique is built around this one system.
link |
Flop wrist means what it sounds like.
link |
Your wrist is flopped, so it looks like you're losing.
link |
So he is pushing from a losing position.
link |
No, he will be offensive.
link |
So he will be in a press, so offensively,
link |
so he'll give his hand away
link |
so that he can get his shoulder behind it properly.
link |
So he doesn't, wow.
link |
So you can press, press means push.
link |
Push, yeah, without having that hook position.
link |
Which is what most people are always looking for.
link |
And Jerry's looking for it as well.
link |
And then, so example, there's another one.
link |
There's another specialist, Matt Mask.
link |
He's a top roller, right?
link |
Basically, that's his great move is a top roll.
link |
And his other weapons aren't nearly as powerful.
link |
Just incredible top roll.
link |
And then you have a lot of athletes that are more blended.
link |
They have a lot of good options.
link |
I think that I probably fall more into that category.
link |
You have people who are more speed guys, okay?
link |
So they try and do very little, I call it attrition, right?
link |
So a lot of people are very willing to trade energy, right?
link |
Because they have faith that their gas tank
link |
or their pool eventually will tire the other person out.
link |
So anytime there's a trade, they'll trade.
link |
Whereas a guy like Travis Bajan,
link |
he was very, very well known
link |
as being extremely explosive, right?
link |
But if the match stops, typically he's gonna lose.
link |
All right, so based off of your genetics, your hands,
link |
there's a lot of ways to skin it.
link |
So I think you said something like you're a 22nd guy.
link |
That's right, I'm a 22nd guy.
link |
So what are the seconds we're talking about?
link |
So a lot of the power people,
link |
they want to win in the first maybe five seconds,
link |
like just that first push, that first press.
link |
Absolutely, right to the pad, yeah.
link |
And so you're trying to hold off that attack.
link |
Yeah, if I beat you in a second,
link |
we're not in the same world, yeah.
link |
But when I'm with my peer group,
link |
I will typically win 20 seconds and beyond.
link |
That's a typical win for me when I'm with a peer.
link |
Whereas other guys, when they're with their peers,
link |
they'll win in a second, right?
link |
That's how they do it, that's the way they're built,
link |
that's the way they train.
link |
Yeah, most guys at a higher level at all
link |
starts to kind of, it starts to get more and more difficult
link |
to be a specialist at the high level now.
link |
Some people just have little holes in their games.
link |
It's rare to get someone who can really do all the moves.
link |
Where would you put Levan?
link |
I would not say he's a specialist.
link |
I'd say his top roll is his strongest move.
link |
Top roll is his strongest move, yeah.
link |
And the interesting thing about the specialist
link |
versus the blender, there's a counter, right?
link |
Every move has a move that theoretically
link |
should be the right choice.
link |
So if you're a single move guy,
link |
there's gonna be a guy out there who'll get you.
link |
Yeah, it'll be very difficult for you to beat that guy.
link |
But when you come to a tournament,
link |
typically specialists do much better
link |
in tournament scenarios because their singular move
link |
can get them through a tournament
link |
very quickly and efficiently.
link |
Whereas you get a blender in a tournament,
link |
they typically will have longer and more difficult matches.
link |
And by, oh, right, yeah.
link |
But in supermatch format, typically blenders do better.
link |
So we offline also talked about arm sumo
link |
or freedom arm wrestling.
link |
I don't know how you wanna call it.
link |
Oh, I love freedom.
link |
Well, exactly, North American way.
link |
So this is this idea, and I watched a few videos,
link |
and it looks fun, is basically removing the restriction
link |
of having to keep your elbow on the pad
link |
and just being able to arm wrestle over the whole table.
link |
I think you've mentioned that the criticism that gets
link |
is it might be injury prone or something like that.
link |
So can you describe this arm sumo, freedom arm wrestling
link |
When you come to freedom arm wrestling,
link |
basically it removes the limitation
link |
of a standard arm wrestling table.
link |
So basically every single thing
link |
is a freedom arm wrestling table.
link |
Some are better than others.
link |
So looking for that nice table where we can kind of
link |
stand apart from each other and we're anatomically
link |
in a fairly safe position.
link |
And the rules in freedom, the way you win,
link |
is the knuckles must either touch the tabletop
link |
or you hold it off the edge for a three count.
link |
So this is the main way to win.
link |
Yes, you can foul, like if you lift your elbow up,
link |
it's still a foul, but you have the entire playing surface.
link |
So your elbow's no longer limited to your seven by seven
link |
or seven by nine pad, so you can move it all over the table.
link |
You can move your body around the table a bit too.
link |
And if it's a big table, your body
link |
could largely be on the table.
link |
Yeah, so basically it's like adjusting your ring size.
link |
So arm wrestling, you're fighting in a phone booth, right?
link |
So you're fighting in a field, you're fighting just bigger.
link |
So it just makes the sport bigger.
link |
Yeah, this is Japan.
link |
But even on a small table, even in a slightly larger
link |
phone booth, you can get a lot more fun and variety.
link |
It's very interesting to watch.
link |
I think it makes the sport bigger.
link |
I actually believe that it's the future of the sport.
link |
Because it makes it more accessible.
link |
Like you don't need the equipment.
link |
You can do it at a bar, all that kind of stuff.
link |
Yeah, less equipment requirements.
link |
Most kids start freedom.
link |
Like most kids arm wrestle on school desks.
link |
And like if you see a guy on the street, you're like,
link |
whatever, you can arm wrestle anywhere.
link |
You don't need to bring your table around with you.
link |
If we talked about the elite level,
link |
if somebody was interested in starting in arm wrestling
link |
or going from just like, you go to the gym,
link |
you kind of lift, you've arm wrestled a few times,
link |
trying to get better at it, trying to learn.
link |
How would you advise getting better to where you can
link |
beat your closest buddies?
link |
First step, I'd say find people.
link |
Well, get with a club.
link |
Get with people who know what they're doing,
link |
who can mentor you.
link |
And that's really cool.
link |
I realized there's a club in Austin.
link |
I'm sure there's in a lot of places.
link |
Oh, they're everywhere.
link |
We got this app called Armbet.
link |
Which is a app that helps you find other people there.
link |
But I mean, they're all over social networks.
link |
I mean, it's kind of widespread now.
link |
But yeah, find people.
link |
Find people and it's just much easier to learn
link |
with another person and you'll get stronger that way.
link |
But I mean, do the lifts.
link |
I mean, if you go to the gym, just start doing the lifts.
link |
And right away, those will technically prepare you.
link |
What are the lifts?
link |
Can we describe what the first one is?
link |
Yeah, so I'd say if you wanna just keep it
link |
very, very simple, let's just talk about three.
link |
There's much more than three.
link |
But when you talk about energy allocation,
link |
these three lifts, in my opinion,
link |
should be like 90% of your investment.
link |
It's very big, these three lifts.
link |
And the exact percentages, you can argue about it,
link |
but we'll start off with the cupping of the wrist.
link |
Just this, it's a simple thing.
link |
And do it with a cable.
link |
You can get a thicker diameter, so it kind of
link |
is more out on your fingers where an armrest
link |
is gonna attack you.
link |
Because any good armrest is gonna attack your fingers.
link |
So like open hand.
link |
Well, I mean, for health, yes, you could.
link |
But if you wanna be really specific,
link |
you train exactly the way you would at a table.
link |
In the position that you actually start that match.
link |
Yeah, and then you're just doing this kind of thing.
link |
Yes, to your center.
link |
One of the big misconceptions in armwrestling
link |
is that you're aiming for that pin pad.
link |
The chest up here.
link |
Bring it close to you.
link |
Make it come close to you, right?
link |
You see like whenever I do my exercises,
link |
the vector is always pulling straight towards me.
link |
Yeah, so just cupping close to you.
link |
The most dangerous thing that a person can do to me
link |
on an armwrestling match is just pull me away from my body.
link |
That's a terrible thing for me.
link |
Yeah, so that cupping, that's a massive part of the sport.
link |
So now when you think what does the cup do
link |
to the other person, if I cup, they get turned over.
link |
So this has to get really strong.
link |
So to fight that rolling.
link |
So that's through the thumb.
link |
Oh, so you put, got it, you put on the thumb
link |
and you put this motion.
link |
So those two things, those two things together,
link |
this cupping and rolling, this is what's gonna make
link |
the person's hand bend back, and once the person's hand
link |
is bent back, just their whole game gets cut to pieces.
link |
They have very little good options.
link |
It's all like nasty stuff.
link |
Yeah, so those two things, that's a huge part
link |
of your investment.
link |
Always be climbing.
link |
Yeah, those three simple things, that's what I would tell
link |
anybody to spend most of their time on if you wanna
link |
become an art wrestler.
link |
So bands would be good for this?
link |
Bands are great because they're easy to transport.
link |
The only problem I have with bands is like if you like
link |
to measure, you know, and if you like to be precise,
link |
bands just aren't that precise.
link |
Right, so to have growth.
link |
Just, I mean, it's just like, you know, you know exactly
link |
what you need, the prescription is kind of, a band
link |
is kind of like, and a lot of people, myself included,
link |
I like to know exactly my outputs, so weights.
link |
So would it be like cables?
link |
Bands are great, too.
link |
Bands are when I kind of don't need to, they're more
link |
When I train bands, bands are dangerous
link |
because the acceleration is so high on them.
link |
Like when you screw up with band training,
link |
the acceleration is way faster than gravity, right?
link |
So if you do something bad, it can make it go
link |
really much worse.
link |
It's funny that you didn't mention bicep curls or.
link |
Well, it's a chain.
link |
And so you're, I mean, the idea if you focus on these three,
link |
the other stuff catches up, like it's all involved.
link |
This whole thing is involved.
link |
So if you have an ax, right, the blade of the ax,
link |
that's these things, right?
link |
Like you need the pointy end of all your attacks
link |
to be awesome, right?
link |
If you have a super sharp ax, you could have
link |
Yeah, so focus on that, the tip of the ax.
link |
Yeah, the tip of the ax is so important, right?
link |
Like if I have an awesome bicep and I can't quite use it,
link |
what's it good for, right?
link |
Yeah, I think a lot of the motions with the wrist
link |
that you mentioned are, just thinking about jiu jitsu,
link |
especially in the gi, there's a lot of,
link |
I mean, there's so much importance to this,
link |
and people don't often work it explicitly.
link |
So many of the chokes require ability to,
link |
it's almost like exactly like arm wrestling.
link |
Because you're weak here, what's that called,
link |
flop wrist, and you're strong with the cup, yeah.
link |
And so just getting the, whatever that's involved,
link |
the muscle, the turning, the pressure,
link |
because that's where also the choke comes.
link |
That little, the thing that makes you win in arm wrestling
link |
is also the thing that finishes the person
link |
when you have them grabbed.
link |
The strength is very similar.
link |
Yeah, it's fascinating, actually.
link |
Of course, like you said, if you wanna be very good,
link |
you should be doing the very specific exact motion.
link |
Yeah, so if I was gonna do jiu jitsu,
link |
I'd be like working out with the gi.
link |
Yeah, the problem is, you know,
link |
it's difficult to construct the exact,
link |
so you have to actually go with people,
link |
and then they don't like being choked on, right?
link |
So like it's hard to, I'm actually a big,
link |
we have these kinds of debates all the time,
link |
is, you know, I'm a big believer in drilling.
link |
I love doing something thousands of times.
link |
Like John Donahoe is somebody I mentioned to you about
link |
who, the jiu jitsu folks here,
link |
they're less believers in drilling.
link |
They see the value of almost like the mind
link |
of going live and exploring ideas.
link |
You don't need to do the thing a thousand times.
link |
You just need to always be thinking about
link |
the little details that make you better,
link |
and then in action practicing,
link |
like developing the strength, the power,
link |
the explosive of the agility in action.
link |
So actually rolling.
link |
I don't, you know, I agree with this,
link |
but I just believe in volume more.
link |
Yeah, so you can accomplish it through volume.
link |
You can play a lot.
link |
Well, that's the, if you really wanna get it good
link |
is you're talking about, I mean,
link |
that's why a lot of these folks are training
link |
three times a day.
link |
They're doing, you know, they're putting in the hours,
link |
eight hours, nine hours, just.
link |
Well, that's tough, oh my God.
link |
Well, so there are a lot of them are not going hard.
link |
It's just being on the mat.
link |
Some of it is just sitting there talking through ideas,
link |
watching others or teaching, explaining stuff.
link |
It's just, it's like, it's not just physical.
link |
It's mental too, because you're keeping in your mind.
link |
And some of the greatest, they talk about the wrestlers
link |
I've talked with, the fighters, at the top of their career,
link |
they basically, George St. Pierre is like this,
link |
another fellow Canadian, is like,
link |
has stick figures in his head that he can't help.
link |
They're like in there, because if you train enough hours,
link |
you're, it's just gonna be in your head
link |
and they're all going to be playing around in your head.
link |
And some little detail over time,
link |
it's almost like computing or something like that.
link |
And that ends up having a result
link |
even though you're not physically doing anything.
link |
It's always in there.
link |
I do have to return to diet real quick.
link |
I know we talk about pancakes.
link |
Let me, quite seriously, you are one of the,
link |
I mean, strongest athletes in the world for your sport.
link |
So you have to get big, you have to get powerful,
link |
you have to get strong.
link |
What is the right diet for you for that?
link |
Like, what do you eat?
link |
How often do you eat, yeah, from the highest detail
link |
to the smallest, or the things that make you happy
link |
Yeah, I've experimented with every diet.
link |
I've done it all, I've been a vegan, I've done raw,
link |
I've eaten only meat, I've eaten balanced,
link |
I've eaten like a bodybuilder, you know, you name it,
link |
I've probably tried it, I don't believe
link |
that it's as important in the sport of arm wrestling
link |
as it is perhaps in other sports.
link |
I believe that, I mean, just to be very basic,
link |
I mean, if you're eating enough food,
link |
you're probably gonna be okay.
link |
So it's just calories.
link |
I mean, really, I mean, not to overcomplicate it,
link |
but I mean, that's where the conversation starts
link |
where you're eating enough food.
link |
And it can come in any number of ways,
link |
and I don't think it's as important
link |
as a lot of other people do.
link |
I'm certainly irresponsible in a lot,
link |
but the thing is, back to like, volume, right?
link |
Like, you need to, like, if you wanna be
link |
a super heavyweight, it's very different
link |
than if you wanna be a weight category guy.
link |
If you wanna be a weight category guy,
link |
I'd say that you need to be more responsible,
link |
make better choices.
link |
If you wanna be a super heavyweight, everything.
link |
Just so we're watching a delicious looking omelet,
link |
so eggs, bacon, syrup, so you don't care, carbs.
link |
So in all the things you try, so I mostly eat meat now.
link |
And I landed on that, there's several things,
link |
obviously I'm not, but I do a lot of sport.
link |
And I was very surprised how my particular,
link |
very specific body could perform better with only meat.
link |
The sports I do, the mind matters.
link |
And so for some reason, my mind's just clear.
link |
And I don't think, because it feels unhealthy.
link |
It just makes me feel really good.
link |
I don't think I would recommend it to anybody else.
link |
So it's interesting that that journey of just exploring
link |
can take you to figure out something about your own self.
link |
One of the most interesting things that I heard about
link |
nutrition was, I heard there was a.
link |
Actually, Doritos, I forgot about that.
link |
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm an idiot.
link |
Now, I'd say over the last couple of years,
link |
I've really gone into carbs a lot and high glycemic carbs.
link |
And just to, I feel like it's one of the best things
link |
you can do if you're working out really hard.
link |
Just add carbs, yeah, exactly.
link |
But, oh, where was I?
link |
So you've added, syrup is so delicious it's distracting.
link |
No, so you've added the high glycemic carbs into the mix.
link |
So those help, but that's for mass building.
link |
Right, so there was a study that I heard about
link |
by somebody who was trying to identify heart attacks.
link |
They did this great big study.
link |
And at the end of it, I mean, didn't matter
link |
what the people ate, the most important thing
link |
was how they felt about the food that they were eating.
link |
Yeah, so if you believe in the food,
link |
if you believe that it's gonna do good things for you,
link |
if you allocate it the right way,
link |
it's gonna have a positive impact.
link |
And I try and do that no matter what it is.
link |
Like I have my foods that I think do certain things.
link |
And so, you know, for me, I know that,
link |
actually, I mean, I learned about corn fed pumps
link |
when I was overseas.
link |
I realized that I never used to eat crap, really didn't.
link |
I ate super clean all the time.
link |
And when I was faced with imminent death more,
link |
I would be like, okay, I'm going out tonight,
link |
let's have a couple ice cream bars.
link |
You know, like whatever.
link |
And what I realized is if I eat like an entire bag of chips
link |
or like, you know, a bunch of chocolate bars,
link |
and then I go and have a workout,
link |
my workout will be incredible.
link |
It'll be incredible.
link |
There's something about easily processed carbohydrates
link |
that will continue to quickly get into your blood
link |
as fast as you can burn it.
link |
And there's something about that
link |
that will give you incredible blood flow, yeah.
link |
And also your mind plugging in, enjoying that.
link |
And then believing it works,
link |
and that's how it makes it work better.
link |
I mean, I feel that way.
link |
I think this is really not,
link |
this has been frustrating to me
link |
about the health culture in the United States
link |
in the studies that are done.
link |
You know, you look at like the importance of sleep,
link |
the importance of X diet, all those kinds of things.
link |
I wish incorporated into that would be
link |
your mental relationship with all of these things.
link |
So for example, people that tell me,
link |
well, your sleep schedule is insane.
link |
But also, it's insane because I'm doing what I love
link |
and I don't see it as a problem.
link |
And I think that's really important to understand.
link |
If you sleeping crazy hours
link |
is not affecting your stress
link |
and is actually making you happy
link |
or you're drawing some kind of source of happiness
link |
and pleasure and satisfaction,
link |
like being awake when others aren't.
link |
It's like the Mike Tyson thing or something,
link |
like training when you've convinced yourself
link |
everybody's sleeping and therefore
link |
you're somehow training much better.
link |
That's powerful even if you look statistically
link |
six hours may be worse than eight hours
link |
or four hours may be worse than six hours.
link |
So the mind is a powerful thing.
link |
But if you want to be a super heavyweight.
link |
You got to eat like stupid amounts all the time, yeah.
link |
You have to test your digestive system.
link |
What's your favorite meal by the way?
link |
Just if you had to, you know, your last meal.
link |
I am, I do, oh geez, I like so much food, it's tough.
link |
But I'd say the food that I rely on a lot
link |
when I'm getting ready to compete is sushi.
link |
Just because it normally comes in
link |
an all you can eat format, you know.
link |
So I love to go and just binge all you can eat buffets.
link |
Sushi is just super convenient.
link |
If I was a sushi all you can eat buffet place
link |
I'd be terrified when I saw you.
link |
Have you had barbecue at Texas?
link |
Yeah, I love it, I love it, yeah.
link |
So you, just a small tangent on this.
link |
You faced The Mountain for Bjornsson.
link |
Well first of all you arm wrestled him.
link |
It's interesting to ask, so this is The Mountain
link |
from the Game of Thrones, a strong man,
link |
one of the strongest people in the world,
link |
for a time the strongest person in the world.
link |
What was it like, I know sort of you guys
link |
maybe weren't going 1,000%, but what's it like?
link |
Well he probably wasn't going 1,000%.
link |
But like what, it's interesting to think
link |
what does that strength feel like?
link |
So it's a specialized strength in another sport.
link |
What did it feel like?
link |
What, how strong was he, what are some kind
link |
of deep insights you've drawn from that battle?
link |
I feel like if we were to go back 1,000 years
link |
and if you give him armor and a two handed sword
link |
he will just rip across the landscape.
link |
And no one will stop him.
link |
So this is the boxing match you came to,
link |
but there's also a video of them arm wrestling.
link |
Yeah, what a titan though, what a titan.
link |
A guy like that, tall, strong, fit, disciplined.
link |
I mean he is quite a warrior.
link |
Yeah, yeah, he's incredibly impressive.
link |
I really like Hap Thor and I like Eddie Hall too.
link |
And I was just so, I'm just so caught up with the drama.
link |
Okay, so Eddie Hall and Hap Thor Bjornsson,
link |
two of the strongest legendary strongmen that we have.
link |
And they were the coolest, they were the top
link |
when strongman was really super cool.
link |
I don't know all the details,
link |
but they legit hit each other.
link |
So I think it kind of stems, I don't know,
link |
like I say, I'm not right there with them,
link |
but Eddie won the World's Strongest Man event
link |
or something one year and the thing is,
link |
one of those victories where Hap Thor
link |
was not accepting of his defeat.
link |
Okay, and there was a little bit of back and forth.
link |
And basically from what I understand,
link |
they were gonna fight the knight
link |
of the World's Strongest Man.
link |
And they kind of got pulled apart
link |
and this heat between them got translated
link |
into a potential boxing match.
link |
So it's very real.
link |
It's a very real fight.
link |
So you have the two strongest dudes on the planet
link |
are gonna fight each other.
link |
So I've been like, you know,
link |
because arm wrestling and strongman,
link |
it's kind of similar communities.
link |
If you were giving me financial advice
link |
in the middle of the fight.
link |
I am so bad, I always call it wrong.
link |
They're very different.
link |
I see Hap Thor as being, you know, more.
link |
Eddie Hall slimming down, is that what you mean as well?
link |
I see Hap Thor as a bit more regimented,
link |
but I see Eddie Hall as like way more barbaric
link |
and like, I think he's a little bit more athletic,
link |
but Hap Thor is bigger and, you know,
link |
they've chosen slightly different paths
link |
to prepare for the match.
link |
But what happened was like, they were about to fight
link |
and Eddie Hall blew his bicep.
link |
So me, I was getting ready for Levan in December.
link |
We were supposed to arm wrestle in December,
link |
but he's got his movie.
link |
And so I was like, okay, I can kind of get away
link |
from the sport just a little bit, broaden my base.
link |
That happened and I was like, ah, an opportunity.
link |
An opportunity to fight.
link |
I'm like, I'll do it, so.
link |
How much training, you trained a little bit,
link |
so can you tell about your own decision to do that?
link |
What was the training like?
link |
What was the experience like?
link |
Oh, it was so much fun.
link |
It was so much fun.
link |
So basically, I made a funny video
link |
and I sent it to the organizers of Core Sports
link |
that I would do it.
link |
I'm like, I'll do it.
link |
I'm sure they got a thousand people who wanted to do it.
link |
But I'm like, listen, I'm an old man.
link |
Like I'm gimped up like everywhere
link |
outside the arm wrestling lanes.
link |
I said, but I will 100%.
link |
Like if you let me fight them, I'll give it my all.
link |
And whatever, they didn't get back to me.
link |
They're like, yeah, whatever, okay.
link |
So then they call me on a Friday,
link |
like five weeks before the event,
link |
and they're like, hey, Devin, were you serious?
link |
And I'm like, oh, shit.
link |
And I'm like, yes, I was serious.
link |
And they're like, okay, they're like,
link |
it's down to you and like two other people
link |
we'll get back to you in a day or two,
link |
but you would do it.
link |
And I'm like, okay.
link |
So they got back to me on Sunday, like,
link |
so right away I'm like skipping rope.
link |
And I'm like, and I'm so, I only arm wrestle legs.
link |
So what was your, you did some striking training.
link |
Yeah, so I went to this guy that he was awesome,
link |
Zach, Ben Bushida there, that was it from TriStar.
link |
Do you know for us the hobby and that's.
link |
And yes, people in the comments,
link |
I will interview him on this podcast and people can.
link |
He's brilliant, right?
link |
He's an incredible guy.
link |
So right away, like I had no idea
link |
about the fight community across Canada really.
link |
And I got like by the fifth message
link |
that said you must train with Feras.
link |
I was like, okay, called him up.
link |
He was incredible right away.
link |
He's like, yeah, you can come and we'll just work with you.
link |
So I got, I got the call, I called him on like Monday
link |
at two oclock by like seven oclock.
link |
I had my things packed and I went to Montreal
link |
and I spent four weeks in the fighter dorms.
link |
Just humbling yourself.
link |
Yeah, every day, just getting punched in the face,
link |
you know, over and over going for runs with all,
link |
like they're all like Olympians and pro fighters
link |
living in the dorms, super cool dudes.
link |
They were so good to me.
link |
Yeah, there's a good video of you and Feras just talking.
link |
Yeah, I don't remember which stage this was,
link |
but basically, but you were already beginning
link |
I mean, I knew what I was getting into.
link |
Like I knew it was, I knew it was gonna be a losing battle,
link |
but I felt like the opportunity to fight Thor,
link |
like how cool is that?
link |
Like I had to say, I had to do it.
link |
I loved the process and I learned a lot from doing it.
link |
Like the dorms, I wanna do something like that
link |
with arm wrestling.
link |
I think we're big enough now that we can have these
link |
kind of, you know, dorms, frat houses,
link |
whatever you wanna call it.
link |
What's the dorm like?
link |
So you're basically staying there, food's there.
link |
So you mentioned, what was the word you used?
link |
Yeah, exactly, that's it.
link |
So it removes all of that.
link |
Makes it so simple.
link |
You can just focus.
link |
You know, the gym is here, you live here.
link |
You know, that your life becomes simple.
link |
So there's a guy named Jimmy Pedro here in America.
link |
He's a famous coach, has a place up in Boston.
link |
He has kind of a dorm like that too.
link |
And that becomes essential when the community is small,
link |
but you're trying to do epic things like win an Olympic gold.
link |
So you have to really put the people together
link |
in these kind of minimalist conditions
link |
where they just focus on the training,
link |
focus, focus, focus.
link |
Yeah, it wasn't enough time.
link |
I mean, I trained for about three or four weeks,
link |
but I loved the journey and...
link |
Well, what are some of the fun things you enjoy?
link |
So you did mostly striking, did you?
link |
Yeah, I guess it was...
link |
Yeah, it was boxing.
link |
It was straight up boxing.
link |
What are some things that were transferable?
link |
What are some cool things you learned from that?
link |
So from the world of armwrestling,
link |
have you taken anything back?
link |
Like some training regimens, ideas about training,
link |
Because for us it's a unique mind as well for training.
link |
I mean, I've gone very far down the path of armwrestling.
link |
Boxing and armwrestling are very different.
link |
They're very different sports.
link |
The physicality required is very different.
link |
The mentality, I mean, it's fighting.
link |
So it's another form of fighting, which is cool.
link |
The big things that I took back from it,
link |
the things that I loved about it was I had to run again.
link |
So really work on endurance.
link |
Yeah, I was going for runs with guys in the dorms
link |
and they would just destroy me.
link |
Just like it was so bad.
link |
How did you feel in the actual boxing
link |
in terms of endurance?
link |
It's just torture.
link |
And the thing is it was so crazy for me
link |
because I really was good once upon a time.
link |
Like physically, I had incredible full body endurance.
link |
But being so specialized, I realized how much I had slipped.
link |
And yeah, it was fun to try and regain it.
link |
I think it's affected my body composition.
link |
I think since that training, I've become much more lean.
link |
I think it was a very healthy thing for me to do.
link |
Like health wise, I always think that when you're far away
link |
from competition, it's really good to kind of spread out.
link |
So I think that in that way.
link |
Also for your mind.
link |
Yeah, just like, yeah.
link |
Yeah, it's something about clearing your,
link |
I think you've talked about this is like
link |
you're basically taking steps back
link |
before you take steps forward.
link |
I forget how you call it.
link |
Yeah, under, you know, you have to go under.
link |
You know, if you want to go above the line,
link |
you have to spend some time beneath it.
link |
And yeah, I was definitely beneath the line
link |
But Mountain, I mean, like the interesting thing was
link |
as incredible as he is, you know, like what a monster.
link |
And I think if you had had him training in boxing,
link |
you know, for a long time and like from his youth,
link |
I think you, you know, the guy could be world champion,
link |
but you know, to be so specialized and then to switch,
link |
you're at a disadvantage.
link |
And also like I know from just fighting guys in the gym
link |
in TriStar, some of those guys were way scarier, for real.
link |
Like as scary as Thor is, like there's guys
link |
in that TriStar gym that don't look like anything
link |
that would murder me much worse, much worse.
link |
Yeah, but also, you know, that's the difference
link |
between being in the gym and under the lights too.
link |
I mean, GSB is an example, George St. Pierre is an example,
link |
somebody that maybe doesn't look terrifying.
link |
He's at a TriStar.
link |
Yep, he trains at TriStar, but he's quite,
link |
he's super nice, super humble,
link |
but is terrifying when he's fighting.
link |
He's dominating people.
link |
You mentioned death and your Canadian special forces
link |
and in general, thinking about mortality.
link |
Do you think about your death?
link |
Do you contemplate the end, that this thing,
link |
that this ride ends?
link |
All the time, yeah.
link |
From, I've thought about death from a young age.
link |
Are you afraid of it?
link |
Yeah, I don't wanna die.
link |
Yeah, definitely don't wanna die.
link |
But there's times when I can rid myself of it, yeah.
link |
But for sure, I mean, I'm not happy that death is inevitable
link |
and I'm not happy that potentially it's inevitable
link |
for all of us, but it does, I like to fight against it.
link |
Does it, if you could be immortal, would you choose to?
link |
That's my only wish.
link |
Oh, see, but here's the thing.
link |
That's, but the point is to have that wish.
link |
It's like the all you can eat buffet at sushi.
link |
It's, that sushi's more delicious if you have a limit.
link |
Do you have a, oh.
link |
Well, I don't know.
link |
I mean, I don't think I get sick of stuff.
link |
Yeah, I don't think I would get tired of it.
link |
I mean, if someone would pose it to you,
link |
do you wanna live forever?
link |
You would choose no?
link |
Yeah, I would choose no.
link |
Well, my answer's probably yes.
link |
Like, no, I would, it's more like the snooze button.
link |
Do you wanna, do you, do you want?
link |
Well, you could go to sleep.
link |
But it's very difficult in the moment to go to sleep,
link |
but if I'm allowed to live forever,
link |
I'm going to delay all the crazy,
link |
like all the ambitious goals, all the,
link |
because, oh, there's always time.
link |
That's fine, but there is tomorrow, then.
link |
But there is tomorrow, but see,
link |
I think that takes away from the richness of,
link |
like, the richness of the lived experience
link |
of just each moment.
link |
I think the richness of each moment
link |
comes from saying, like, I could die tonight.
link |
Like, that, it tastes delicious because you're gonna die.
link |
I'm afraid if you're not,
link |
I'm afraid all of that goes away,
link |
all of that magic goes away if you can live forever.
link |
But I'll tell you, every time I have a near death experience
link |
or think I'm gonna die,
link |
I definitely live better afterwards, yeah.
link |
Like, it's always been that way.
link |
That's why the Stoics, you know,
link |
they really preach contemplating your mortality often.
link |
It kind of reminds you.
link |
This whole thing could just end any moment
link |
and it makes you really appreciate.
link |
Yeah, I don't know.
link |
Certainly improving the quality of life is important.
link |
But part of me thinks that immortality
link |
is not as fun as we would like to imagine.
link |
Do you think that maybe you're,
link |
in what you're building potentially is immortal?
link |
Well, that's what I definitely think about with robots.
link |
If they were to have a humanlike experience
link |
and be able to interact with humans
link |
in a deep, meaningful way,
link |
I think they too have to be mortal
link |
in some fundamental way that means mortal.
link |
Like, their ride has to end as well.
link |
Because they won't be able to interact with humans deeply
link |
unless that's the case.
link |
Like, to have fear, to have love,
link |
the ability to suffer, the ability to miss somebody,
link |
I think scarcity is important.
link |
You have to be able to truly lose somebody.
link |
You have to be, to fear things,
link |
you have to truly have the risk of destroying yourself.
link |
And to have a sense of what it means to be a self,
link |
you have to be able to lose it.
link |
So if you're immortal, you're just going to be,
link |
I feel like you're going to be like a toaster,
link |
an intelligent toaster that just serves.
link |
There's such a negative perspective on it.
link |
And then mortality?
link |
Yeah, just think, well, now you just,
link |
you can get all those things done that you want to do.
link |
I hope you're right, I hope you're right.
link |
Yeah, I mean, potentially, you could invest even harder
link |
because you're like, wow, I'm actually going to be able
link |
to get all this stuff done.
link |
I think about this a lot, I hope you're right,
link |
but I fear that the drive to create,
link |
I can even do more, all of that dissipates,
link |
disappears if you have all the time in the world.
link |
I just know how lazy I am.
link |
And if I have all the time in the world,
link |
I'm just going to sit there and just watch
link |
the stupidest YouTube videos for the rest of all eternity.
link |
Now, eternity's a long time.
link |
Eat Doritos and Cheetos and just get fatter and fatter.
link |
I can get in shape later, there's always time.
link |
That's like a long period of contemplation.
link |
Yeah, so for the first 1,000 years,
link |
it'll be the Dorito period of the Lex life.
link |
Yeah, you could be like Jabba the Hutt for 1,000 years.
link |
You mentioned aliens, very important topic.
link |
Do you actually think about this
link |
has been an increased interest,
link |
and there's been increased UFO sightings and encounters,
link |
all that kind of stuff, the US government at least
link |
releasing data, releasing videos of pilots,
link |
pilot observations, and from airplanes of UFOs.
link |
Do you think about this kind of stuff?
link |
Because you mentioned in the following context,
link |
you mentioned like us humans will get our shit together
link |
when the aliens eventually come.
link |
What do you make of all the sightings?
link |
Is that something you think about?
link |
I thought about it a lot when I was younger,
link |
and I've just, I made my conclusions,
link |
and yeah, I don't think that there's a possibility
link |
that there aren't aliens.
link |
I would think that it would be impossible
link |
for there not to be aliens.
link |
I feel like this is pretty good real estate,
link |
so you'd probably want it,
link |
but we already might be, well, I don't even think might.
link |
I mean, it's probably quite likely
link |
that we are to some degree aliens.
link |
I mean, all life is probably to some degree alien.
link |
I like the real estate, so the resources,
link |
but we're also kind of interesting.
link |
Whatever this ant colony of living organisms
link |
that we've created, it's kind of interesting to study.
link |
I tend to believe that the alien civilizations
link |
that are going to reach us or have reached us
link |
are far more intelligent,
link |
just orders of magnitude more intelligent than us,
link |
and so it's going to be very difficult both ways, actually,
link |
for us to understand them and for them
link |
to dumb themselves down enough to understand us.
link |
So they might even just miss our existence altogether
link |
just because I tend to believe,
link |
I don't know what you think,
link |
that we're not that special
link |
in terms of all the life forms in the universe.
link |
There's a lot of cool stuff out there.
link |
Has to be, has to be.
link |
But to us, we're special.
link |
Yeah, well, that's all that matters, right?
link |
Even the human species is the most special to us humans.
link |
There could be much more special species here on Earth
link |
they were just totally oblivious to,
link |
like trees on a scale of thousands of years.
link |
Maybe they're onto something.
link |
I think that so much of what makes a person special
link |
is what they pass on, your kids.
link |
But I think that you are quite special
link |
because you're part of this thing
link |
that's potentially giving birth to the next thing.
link |
I should say, the funny thing is,
link |
while talking to Devon during this podcast,
link |
I had a doorbell ring, had to go downstairs,
link |
and there was a big box,
link |
medicine box with a new legged robot.
link |
So the hilarity of you saying that is,
link |
because that robot is actually going to likely be
link |
the main robot that I show to the world in the coming months
link |
because that has the,
link |
that's the highest compute level in that robot.
link |
So I've been playing a lot with legged robots,
link |
the four legs, so like a dog.
link |
I like all the robots,
link |
but there's something about when a robot has legs,
link |
it's able to communicate,
link |
it's able to connect with humans in some kind of deep way,
link |
in the way a dog can, just show affection.
link |
Something about like, step, step, step, step,
link |
and then the robot realizes you're here,
link |
and then it steps and then notices you
link |
in the way the dog does and raises its head.
link |
It makes me feel noticed and heard
link |
in the same way I do when a dog notices me.
link |
That excitement, that stupid excitement of like,
link |
yes, fellow living organism.
link |
And what excites me about legged robots
link |
is that holy shit, it's possible to engineer this.
link |
It's possible to create that feeling,
link |
and I wonder where that can go.
link |
There's a lot of negative possible trajectories,
link |
but I have a sense that there's positive ones too.
link |
Adding more love to the world.
link |
You think that they'll take us with them?
link |
Yeah, I think so because I,
link |
so there's this fear of robots
link |
that they become super intelligent
link |
and run away from us humans,
link |
and basically become so intelligent
link |
and then they almost just not giving a damn will destroy us.
link |
But I think in order for robots to become intelligent,
link |
they have to integrate themselves with society.
link |
So they, by the very nature of how they become intelligent,
link |
have to bring us along.
link |
So it's not that there'll be this separate thing.
link |
They have to, like, we'll have robots in the home.
link |
Well, they'll be interacting with us.
link |
You have human kids, and you have a bunch of robots.
link |
You have robot friends.
link |
You have human friends,
link |
and the robots make your human to human relationships
link |
much more meaningful and richer.
link |
They bring more love to the world, but it's integrated.
link |
It's not like they'll be developing smarter and smarter
link |
as, like, sentient beings by themselves.
link |
I think that's very difficult to do.
link |
You have to be doing that together with humans,
link |
and so we'll come for the ride.
link |
There's technical things, like,
link |
we might merge, like, cyborgs more and more.
link |
Well, we already saw our cyborgs, right?
link |
With the phones and so on, but more and more.
link |
So with Elon and Neuralink, deeper integration of robots
link |
and AI into, like, increasing the bandwidth
link |
at which they can communicate.
link |
So if we do implants in the brain,
link |
I think, again, a lot of people are really nervous
link |
about this, as am I, but I think there's a lot
link |
of trajectories that are positive there.
link |
That, to me, is exciting, and also,
link |
I just don't think it's possible to stop this development,
link |
so we should steer it.
link |
Did you, I mean, you must have watched
link |
the movie Terminator, right?
link |
Yeah, of course, I love Terminator.
link |
Yeah, it's probably my favorite movie of all time.
link |
Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's the big fear, right?
link |
Yeah, what's the conclusion with Terminator?
link |
Isn't ultimately humanity wins?
link |
I think they're at, like, Terminator 8 now.
link |
You know, I don't know.
link |
Yeah, and it's interesting, actually,
link |
I was gonna bring this up as you were talking about it,
link |
but China and the United States actually don't know
link |
where Canada is on this, but they both have agreed
link |
that they're not going to put limits
link |
on autonomous weapon system development.
link |
They're not going to.
link |
They're not going to.
link |
So, because China said we're not going to,
link |
and now US officially announced that we're not, we can't.
link |
Well, you can't, it's like, you never could, right?
link |
As soon as it exists and it's better, people will use it.
link |
Well, but you, there's been a global ban on bioweapons.
link |
So, you were able to come to an agreement there
link |
that we're not going to use biological weapons in war.
link |
So, it was, a lot of people are really upset
link |
that in the case of AI driven weapons,
link |
the world said, nope, that's okay.
link |
And so, now you have this potential
link |
for greater and greater automation in drones,
link |
for example, in picking bombing locations.
link |
And so, the area at which they attack.
link |
And so, you get, some of that stuff that you mentioned
link |
that drew you to the military is that teamwork
link |
between humans, that decision making.
link |
So, there's strategy, but built into that team
link |
is a deep humanity.
link |
Like, even when there's an enemy, there's lines
link |
that you're aware of, of what is ethical, what is not,
link |
what is just and what is not.
link |
And it's so easy for a machine to miss all of that,
link |
plow through it and do deeply inhumane acts,
link |
commit atrocities.
link |
That's something that worries a lot of people.
link |
Because, yeah, an AI based war is just, it's terrifying.
link |
Especially with cyber security, which is becoming
link |
more and more of an issue, which is hacking.
link |
Sort of people that look a lot like me
link |
being the warriors of the future.
link |
Which is meaning people behind a keyboard
link |
versus the traditional warriors.
link |
Probably inevitable.
link |
But I think if you believe that it's possible,
link |
it's certainly gonna happen.
link |
Like, at some point, it's just when, right?
link |
When does it happen?
link |
So that, I mean, to me, I'm ultimately optimistic
link |
And to me, I'm excited about the world with AI.
link |
I'm even excited about the metaverse
link |
and all these kinds of things, living more and more
link |
in the digital space, in the virtual reality.
link |
I think, so it's a part of me that grew up
link |
in the noninternet world, noncomputer world.
link |
It says, oh, kids these days with their video games.
link |
There's part of me that's like that.
link |
But I think technology at its best
link |
can bring out the best of humanity.
link |
And so I think virtual reality, all of these things,
link |
over time, we'll figure out how to fix it
link |
to bring out the humanity.
link |
Social networks, the first generation social networks,
link |
now Facebook, Twitter, and so on,
link |
they have so many problems.
link |
They're bringing out the worst in people.
link |
But I think we're learning from that.
link |
And I think the next generation of social networks
link |
will be better and better and better.
link |
And so I'm optimistic.
link |
But of course, one reason we may have not seen aliens yet,
link |
obviously, like in a way that's obvious,
link |
is because once you get clever and smart
link |
and have all this cool technology, you destroy yourself.
link |
And we sure as humans are pretty close to that.
link |
Yeah, yeah, there might be that limit
link |
that is hard to get right.
link |
I'm hoping we get all our aggression between nations
link |
out through arm wrestling competition.
link |
Just all of that life.
link |
Oh my God, wouldn't that be great
link |
if it was that simple, yeah.
link |
Do you know if there's another
link |
over the top type movie to be made?
link |
Oh yeah, yeah, there's always stuff in the works.
link |
There's actually a, there's a tournament called
link |
Over the Top in Australia that's a couple months away.
link |
I think they're doing an all the over the top scene.
link |
But there are arm wrestling movies
link |
that are being made right now.
link |
Actually, there's a documentary that's filming me
link |
for this whole Levan thing.
link |
But yeah, we're probably due for another big one, yeah.
link |
But you're also, just with your YouTube channel,
link |
you're doing a lot for the sport.
link |
That's really cool to see.
link |
Just being genuine, but just being like,
link |
looking not like you're looking today, but just like.
link |
Yeah, yeah, yeah, normally a mess.
link |
You know, and just putting yourself out there
link |
completely as you are.
link |
That's a beautiful thing.
link |
The best thing about the sport
link |
is it brings people together.
link |
Yeah, the community, the folks I got to interact with,
link |
just so awesome, so excited, so full of kindness.
link |
I'm definitely gonna find the club here
link |
and start working on my arm wrestling game.
link |
Devin, this is such a huge honor
link |
that you would spend your valuable time.
link |
You would come down to Austin.
link |
You would hang out with me and do this conversation.
link |
Super cool to talk to you, Lex, yeah.
link |
As I mentioned, in case people,
link |
you know, people I'm sure will tell me.
link |
So I hang out with Joe Rogan all the time.
link |
I told him that he should talk to Devin.
link |
He's going through some stuff currently, you know.
link |
But I'm sure, I hope the conversation
link |
between you, Devin, and Joe happens eventually.
link |
He's, that would be epic as well,
link |
because he's a, yeah, he loves fighting.
link |
He loves fighting, he loves wrestling, he loves strength.
link |
And I think all of those are, like,
link |
so perfectly encapsulated in the sport of arm wrestling.
link |
So thank you so much for talking to me.
link |
Thanks so much, Lex.
link |
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Devin Larratt.
link |
To support this podcast,
link |
please check out our sponsors in the description.
link |
And now, let me leave you with some words from Miyamoto Musashi.
link |
The only reason a warrior is alive is to fight.
link |
And the only reason a warrior fights is to win.
link |
Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.