back to index

Sarma Melngailis: Bad Vegan, Fraud, Prison, and Sociopathy | Lex Fridman Podcast #288


small model | large model

link |
00:00:00.000
he made me think that, you know, everything was going to be reversed and okay, and anybody that
link |
00:00:05.360
money was borrowed from, they would get it back, you know, maybe tenfold.
link |
00:00:08.480
And so it was this weird situation of having like one foot in his reality and potentially
link |
00:00:16.240
believing the things he was saying or even over time wanting to believe them more and more because
link |
00:00:22.560
the alternative was so, the alternative was worse. The alternative was like, was increasingly a
link |
00:00:30.080
bigger and bigger nightmare. The following is a conversation with Sarma Melengales,
link |
00:00:36.720
a chef and restaurateur who was the subject of the Netflix documentary Bad Vegan, Fame, Fraud
link |
00:00:43.760
and Fugitives, that documents the rise and fall of her vegan raw food restaurants in New York City
link |
00:00:50.560
that ended in what she called a road trip from hell, being arrested in Tennessee,
link |
00:00:55.920
her pleading guilty for stealing over two million dollars and serving four months at Rikers Island
link |
00:01:02.480
jail. Sarma disputes the veracity of the documentary and its conclusions, saying that
link |
00:01:08.880
she was misrepresented. So I wanted to talk to her to get the full story, to seek understanding of
link |
00:01:15.600
who she is as a human being, the good and the bad. This is the Lex Friedman podcast. To support it,
link |
00:01:23.600
please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Sarma Melengales.
link |
00:01:30.800
You said that you did a lot of reading when you were growing up and you mentioned Fear
link |
00:01:35.280
and Loathing in Las Vegas by Hunter S. Thompson. So from the reading you've done in those early days,
link |
00:01:42.400
how did you see the world? Was it to you a beautiful place or a cruel place?
link |
00:01:48.320
I don't think I thought about the world.
link |
00:01:50.880
You were focused on family, just basic day to day life?
link |
00:01:54.320
I think I was focused on day to day. I had an awareness of not fitting in,
link |
00:01:58.160
but I think back then it felt like something was wrong versus some people are just that way.
link |
00:02:04.960
And speaking of books, I read a book called Party of One by a woman named Anneli Rufus
link |
00:02:13.280
that somebody gave me and suggested I read, and that helped a lot. That was one book that made me
link |
00:02:18.720
feel like, it made me understand things from the past that I hadn't understood before, specifically
link |
00:02:26.480
kind of feeling out of place, even among my family, which is where you're not supposed to
link |
00:02:30.400
feel out of place. Yeah, I'm not sure where I saw it, but I think you mentioned that you were
link |
00:02:34.800
a bit of a loner. And I also think I saw somewhere pictures of you with green hair
link |
00:02:43.280
in high school and a wild haircut. What was that about? Was that real? Am I just imagining?
link |
00:02:49.680
No, you're not imagining it. It's strange because I was kind of a loner,
link |
00:02:56.640
so it'd be strange to do something that calls so much attention to yourself. Because back then,
link |
00:03:00.640
I mean, I grew up in a suburb of Boston, in Newton, and anybody that was there around that
link |
00:03:08.320
time, probably if you said that girl with green hair or blue hair, blue most of the time, they
link |
00:03:14.080
would remember seeing me walking down the street because it stood out like crazy, especially back
link |
00:03:18.240
then. Now it wouldn't stand out so much, but back then it really stood out. So I was trying to think
link |
00:03:25.760
about why I did that when I was kind of shy and on the one hand wouldn't want to bring attention
link |
00:03:35.280
to myself, but I did something that did. And it wasn't, my family, to their credit,
link |
00:03:43.440
they were fine with it. So it wasn't a rebellion against them or anything like that.
link |
00:03:48.080
They were fine with it. I don't think they loved it, but...
link |
00:03:50.400
Your dad was a physicist at MIT. Yes. So he was cool with your green hair,
link |
00:03:58.240
when you're a rebellion. That's just the way of life.
link |
00:04:00.480
He was fine with the green hair, but I think in some ways maybe they had to be fine with it because
link |
00:04:05.200
I didn't cause problems otherwise. And I got good grades in school. I was a very low maintenance
link |
00:04:14.320
child, I think. Even with the green hair. So Hunter S. Thompson wrote a lot of good stuff.
link |
00:04:23.440
He has a lot of just brilliant quotes, a lot of brilliant lines. So one of the ones I love is,
link |
00:04:30.240
life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a
link |
00:04:34.880
pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke,
link |
00:04:39.760
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, wow, what a ride.
link |
00:04:47.520
What do you think about that? Is that good life advice from Hunter S. Thompson?
link |
00:04:52.880
I think so. I think he followed it, right? Somewhere I heard recently what he consumed
link |
00:05:01.280
in a day and it was kind of astonishing. It's funny, when I was in college,
link |
00:05:07.120
there were always really interesting people coming through, speakers and whatnot,
link |
00:05:10.960
and I tended to not go to events and whatnot. But in the four years I was there,
link |
00:05:16.160
really interesting people came through and gave talks. I don't know, just a lot of famous people.
link |
00:05:24.240
But then one day Hunter S. Thompson came to speak and that was the only one I attended.
link |
00:05:28.320
Oh, wow.
link |
00:05:29.040
That was the only interesting person who came to speak on the campus that I attended,
link |
00:05:33.600
was Hunter S. Thompson. And he had a glass of whatever it was, whiskey.
link |
00:05:40.000
And I don't remember a whole lot about it, but it was entertaining.
link |
00:05:44.400
And yeah, I mean, later in his life, he started making less and less sense,
link |
00:05:48.720
but he was still somehow embodying the crazy that he represented throughout his life. The boldness,
link |
00:05:54.800
the fearlessness, the wildness, all that kind of stuff. And we'll talk about Johnny Depp a
link |
00:05:58.640
little bit too. Funny enough, there's like a echo. Obviously, Johnny Depp played him,
link |
00:06:05.280
or he starred in a film, Unloathing, and they hung out together. And it just seemed to somehow,
link |
00:06:10.560
like the universe rhymes in these two individuals. They're both madmen in different kinds of ways.
link |
00:06:16.640
So you also told me that Leon the Professional is one of your favorite films. It's also the
link |
00:06:23.040
reason you named your dog Leon. So what do you find beautiful and powerful about this film?
link |
00:06:29.520
I've watched it a bunch of times, but it's been a while since I've watched it.
link |
00:06:33.280
So for people who haven't watched it, there's a guy named Leon played by Jean Reno. There's a
link |
00:06:41.440
young girl, I don't know, 13, 14, Matilda played by Natalie Portman. And she's abused.
link |
00:06:50.080
She has a really hard life. Her parents are, spoiler alert, murdered. And then she finds
link |
00:06:58.400
protection under this fella, Leon, who also happens to be a professional assassin.
link |
00:07:10.960
And he is also kind of a Forrest Gump type character. Like he's a really simple, simple human.
link |
00:07:16.640
He almost, he seems to be like the immature one or like rather the one who's young. And she seems
link |
00:07:23.040
to have a wisdom far beyond her age because of the hard life she had to live through. And then
link |
00:07:28.960
they're here huddling together from the cruelty of the world and finding connection.
link |
00:07:37.840
Yeah, I think it's one of those films where there's so many interesting things about it,
link |
00:07:41.520
but I'm sure one of them is just the contradiction of him being a caring person and reluctant to get
link |
00:07:49.520
attached to her. He tries to, I think he knows he's very reluctant to get attached to her in
link |
00:07:54.800
the beginning. And so you see all of his humanity, but yet he's also an assassin that kills people. So
link |
00:08:04.160
that's interesting. And I think probably a psychoanalyst would have a field day with
link |
00:08:09.040
why I like that movie so much. And I haven't gone there myself, but there's something I think about
link |
00:08:16.560
she, even in the brief part that depicts her in the beginning, it seems clear that she's sort of
link |
00:08:23.760
out of place in her family. And then, yeah, there's all kinds of interesting things about
link |
00:08:32.800
their relationship along the way. What I like about that movie, and I had to think about it
link |
00:08:37.600
recently because I've read stuff about it that bothered me. Or it bothered me the fact that I
link |
00:08:44.160
haven't really thought about it before. For people who haven't watched the movie, so here's a young
link |
00:08:49.200
underage girl who kind of comes on to him. First of all, I think she actually just doesn't know what
link |
00:08:57.760
like familial love is. So this is the only way she knows how to express love. That's one. And two is,
link |
00:09:05.840
a lot of bad people in this world would take advantage of that. And the fact that she finally
link |
00:09:15.280
met a human being who doesn't, and is just there to protect her. That's a real sort of, I don't
link |
00:09:24.720
know, a powerful statement of what it means to be sort of like a father figure, I suppose,
link |
00:09:30.080
a protector. So that, that to me, I love the idea of being sort of the protector. That there's
link |
00:09:39.680
something, like something worthwhile in this world to protect amidst all the cruelty that's all
link |
00:09:46.640
around. That's a beautiful kind of, you're basically saving this young human's, or you're
link |
00:09:56.400
repairing this young human's path to love, to real love in life. Because that idea of love was
link |
00:10:08.160
destroyed for her. Just family, everything is sort of, everything around her is broken. And he's kind
link |
00:10:18.640
of repairing it by reestablishing what that kind of love can be. I don't know.
link |
00:10:22.640
And the plant. They saved the plant also.
link |
00:10:27.600
Well, there's also just a simple, the simplicity of the film, just from a cinematic perspective,
link |
00:10:32.240
is beautiful. The music, the way it looks, the minimalism.
link |
00:10:36.800
Even the violence was beautiful.
link |
00:10:39.040
Yeah, violence. It was over the top. And also the bad guy, the bad cop, played by Gary Oldman.
link |
00:10:49.040
Yeah, he was amazing.
link |
00:10:50.080
Yeah, I think he was listening to Beethoven or something like that. And he was taking some sort
link |
00:10:55.920
of pills and drugs of some kind. And so there was a kind of, like it's part of the orchestra,
link |
00:11:02.080
like the violence was part of the, of some kind of musical creation.
link |
00:11:08.720
Yeah, it's interesting because I turn away from violence or films usually that have violence or
link |
00:11:15.840
TV or anything that has that sort of element to it, except in certain cases where...
link |
00:11:24.560
Where the violence is beautiful.
link |
00:11:26.480
Yeah, yeah. Or did you see the movie True Romance?
link |
00:11:32.960
Yes.
link |
00:11:33.360
That's my second favorite movie.
link |
00:11:35.280
Okay, that's probably my favorite movie.
link |
00:11:37.840
Oh, well, interesting. That's my second favorite movie.
link |
00:11:40.080
That's a more simple kind of love, but also with the violence that is beautiful,
link |
00:11:45.600
I suppose you could say.
link |
00:11:46.560
Yeah. And my favorite scene is the one with Patricia Arquette and James Gandolfini.
link |
00:11:52.480
Oh yeah, where she, there's a shotgun involved.
link |
00:11:55.280
Yeah.
link |
00:11:56.000
Yeah. And then...
link |
00:11:57.440
It actually makes me cry every time I see it, for some reason.
link |
00:12:01.360
So for people who haven't seen the film, I think, I think he's actually, I think he's hitting her
link |
00:12:12.320
or like there's blood and violence and so on because she's resisting being murdered.
link |
00:12:18.160
Oh yeah, there's a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of violence. And then, you know,
link |
00:12:20.880
he throws her into the glass, the shower thing, and she's all cut up and beat up and...
link |
00:12:28.560
Oh, and she laughs.
link |
00:12:30.240
Yeah, there's just so much passion in it. She knows she's going to, or in that moment she knows
link |
00:12:37.200
or thinks she knows that she's going to die anyway, because she knows he's going to kill her.
link |
00:12:42.640
So she kind of gives it her, gives it all she has.
link |
00:12:46.800
But she also just has guts, she's not afraid.
link |
00:12:50.000
Yeah. Well, and also she's, you know, she loves Clarence.
link |
00:12:55.440
Yeah. The love comes through through that violence. Yeah.
link |
00:12:58.000
Yeah. Just like Clarence, her fella in that film
link |
00:13:05.040
has the same kind of thing when he visits...
link |
00:13:06.880
Well, it was Gary Oldman again.
link |
00:13:08.400
It was Gary Oldman again. That's right. The pimp.
link |
00:13:10.640
Looking very different.
link |
00:13:11.440
Drexel.
link |
00:13:12.240
Drexel, yeah.
link |
00:13:13.280
Yeah. And he's also fearless in that interaction saying she's now mine.
link |
00:13:18.640
It's interesting. That movie is so romantic. And happy ending, spoiler alert, in a way.
link |
00:13:24.320
That's what I like about it too, because I feel like some movies should come with...
link |
00:13:28.640
I don't want to watch a movie if it's going to be devastating, usually, unless it's
link |
00:13:33.040
worthwhile in some other way, but I'm kind of sensitive and I don't want...
link |
00:13:37.920
I don't like movies that have a terrible ending, you know? I mean,
link |
00:13:42.880
there's a book I read because it got so many good reviews,
link |
00:13:46.000
and the very last scene the woman steps in front of a train and it was like...
link |
00:13:49.280
So, I'm partial to movies with happy endings.
link |
00:13:52.880
Leon ends with loss, Leon, the movie.
link |
00:13:58.320
Right, but it's still inspiring.
link |
00:14:00.800
A love persists in some kind of form.
link |
00:14:03.360
Yeah.
link |
00:14:04.000
She persists.
link |
00:14:04.960
And the plant.
link |
00:14:05.760
And the plant.
link |
00:14:08.800
Okay, sure, sure. True Romance does have one of the...
link |
00:14:12.080
I mean, it's probably unhealthy.
link |
00:14:14.080
That ending scene is just amazing.
link |
00:14:16.080
You're so cool when you're in the movie.
link |
00:14:18.080
You're so cool where she... Is that one the one where she just kind of
link |
00:14:22.800
looks at Clarence and her son and child or whatever and she's saying,
link |
00:14:28.560
you're so cool, you're so cool. Yeah.
link |
00:14:32.400
That's love.
link |
00:14:33.920
I just thought that movie has so much in it because it's, you know,
link |
00:14:37.520
it's funny and there's so many good actors in that film.
link |
00:14:41.920
And Brad Pitt plays in that film a pivotal role of Pothead on couch.
link |
00:14:47.520
Yeah, they're all so good and funny.
link |
00:14:50.000
And Michael Rapaport and even Val Kilmer,
link |
00:14:53.760
people don't realize he's in the movie because he doesn't look like himself.
link |
00:14:57.840
Wait, what did Val Kilmer play?
link |
00:14:59.040
Val Kilmer's in the very end.
link |
00:15:02.080
You know when there's like the Elvis sitting there talking to him in the end?
link |
00:15:07.120
Yeah.
link |
00:15:07.760
That's Val Kilmer.
link |
00:15:10.800
Yeah, you don't notice it unless you somehow either are very perceptive
link |
00:15:15.520
or noticed it in the credits.
link |
00:15:17.280
Yeah.
link |
00:15:17.680
And Quentin Tarantino wrote the film, I think.
link |
00:15:20.960
Yes.
link |
00:15:21.360
Which is interesting.
link |
00:15:23.280
Directed by Tony Scott and the music is beautiful too.
link |
00:15:28.000
And Christopher Walken and Dennis Hopper.
link |
00:15:33.440
Dennis Hopper.
link |
00:15:34.080
Dennis Hopper plays Clarence's dad and they have this very racist sounding scene.
link |
00:15:41.200
But the big important aspect of that scene is it's a father willing to die to protect the son.
link |
00:15:50.880
I mean, it's so much beautiful violence in that film.
link |
00:15:53.840
There is.
link |
00:15:55.120
There is.
link |
00:15:55.600
I love that film so much.
link |
00:15:57.520
And she's a prostitute or not really part time, short time.
link |
00:16:02.640
No, it was her first time.
link |
00:16:03.840
First time.
link |
00:16:04.800
Yeah.
link |
00:16:05.600
Okay.
link |
00:16:06.320
And he saved her.
link |
00:16:07.200
My third favorite film has no violence whatsoever.
link |
00:16:16.160
What's your third?
link |
00:16:17.440
A Room with a View.
link |
00:16:20.320
I feel like you'd like it.
link |
00:16:24.640
I forget the author.
link |
00:16:25.520
It's a book and I read the book much later.
link |
00:16:27.760
But it's Helena Bonham Carter and Daniel Day Lewis is in it and Julian Sands.
link |
00:16:40.560
Daniel Day Lewis is a fascinating character.
link |
00:16:43.120
He's amazing in this film because he plays, he's very funny.
link |
00:16:47.600
He sort of plays a, he's a comical character, which is unlike most of what he does, I think.
link |
00:16:53.920
I don't watch a ton of movies.
link |
00:16:55.280
So, but yeah, he played, his role is funny.
link |
00:17:01.040
Well, that's a heck of a top three.
link |
00:17:05.200
You brought me some books, some bread and books.
link |
00:17:08.240
Yeah.
link |
00:17:09.200
Some Russian bread, Russian inspired bread.
link |
00:17:12.480
Yeah.
link |
00:17:12.800
I mean, it's Latvian, but it's similar to.
link |
00:17:15.920
Close enough.
link |
00:17:16.720
Similar to what's made in Russia.
link |
00:17:18.480
And it's made at a Russian bakery.
link |
00:17:20.080
Where your dad is from, right?
link |
00:17:21.680
My dad is from Latvia.
link |
00:17:22.720
Yeah.
link |
00:17:22.960
So you got me some books, Beautiful Ruins.
link |
00:17:26.240
Yeah, and if you never read them, who cares?
link |
00:17:28.880
That's totally fine.
link |
00:17:29.600
You know, people give you books and then you feel like you just, you sort of feel like.
link |
00:17:34.000
I see this as, we'll talk about this.
link |
00:17:36.400
This is part therapy session.
link |
00:17:37.760
I don't feel the need to satisfy people's happiness.
link |
00:17:42.160
That's a good thing.
link |
00:17:43.040
Okay, so, but it could also be an opportunity to experience something I never otherwise would have.
link |
00:17:50.640
So Beautiful Ruins.
link |
00:17:53.200
It's a book that made me laugh and cry.
link |
00:17:56.000
And it's just a happy story.
link |
00:17:58.160
And for some reason, I don't know exactly why, but for some reason, when you asked me to come,
link |
00:18:04.720
it just, I thought, oh, I'm going to bring a copy of that book.
link |
00:18:08.800
That's, you just felt it came, the voice told you.
link |
00:18:11.840
Yeah.
link |
00:18:12.080
There's others, Darkness Visible.
link |
00:18:14.640
These are more.
link |
00:18:15.440
A memoir of madness, compelling, harrowing, a vivid portrait of a debilitating disorder.
link |
00:18:21.360
It offers the solace of shared experience.
link |
00:18:24.480
The New York Times, William Styron.
link |
00:18:26.800
There's a little bit about this book that reminds me of the Carl Diceroth book because
link |
00:18:35.440
he writes about his own condition in, I mean, he's an amazing writer.
link |
00:18:40.480
So he writes about it in this beautiful way.
link |
00:18:42.480
And oddly enough, in some ways, it's kind of delightful.
link |
00:18:46.560
So it's not at all a depressing book.
link |
00:18:49.120
At least I didn't find it depressing at all.
link |
00:18:50.800
I don't think it is.
link |
00:18:52.720
But he writes about his own experience with depression in such a beautiful way.
link |
00:18:59.840
My own copy is full of underlines.
link |
00:19:04.000
I would love that copy too.
link |
00:19:06.240
I would love to look into the underlines and then the books with notes, those little
link |
00:19:12.320
secrets that people leave traces.
link |
00:19:13.920
That's part of why I like paper books is because I underline.
link |
00:19:17.440
I tend to underline like crazy.
link |
00:19:18.880
The Carl Diceroth book is full of underlines too.
link |
00:19:22.400
Well, I do the same thing on Kindle, but and then you can actually more effectively go
link |
00:19:27.280
back to the things you've underlined because you highlight and so on.
link |
00:19:30.000
But in fact, when you underline on paper books, you sometimes never go back, which always
link |
00:19:38.320
makes me sad.
link |
00:19:39.200
To the book?
link |
00:19:39.920
To the things you've underlined.
link |
00:19:41.280
In the paper books?
link |
00:19:42.320
Yeah, in the paper books.
link |
00:19:42.960
Oh, I do.
link |
00:19:43.360
I go back.
link |
00:19:44.320
Yeah, I go back a lot.
link |
00:19:45.680
Do you wonder what the heck you were thinking about when you wrote something?
link |
00:19:49.440
No.
link |
00:19:49.840
Well, sometimes I underline things that are...
link |
00:19:51.600
Well, also what I do is I have in a whole file in Evernote of transcribed quotes from
link |
00:19:57.440
books, ones that I want to save.
link |
00:19:59.920
So I might underline a lot of things in a book and then maybe like a third of them,
link |
00:20:04.960
I want to write them down somewhere.
link |
00:20:06.960
So I write those down and I think even the time it takes to transcribe it is somehow
link |
00:20:12.000
worthwhile.
link |
00:20:12.560
It's like searing it in your brain.
link |
00:20:15.760
And you're reliving the memory, having read it the first time.
link |
00:20:20.160
Yeah, and then sometimes I'll pick up books.
link |
00:20:21.840
I even and sometimes I just underline sentences that are...
link |
00:20:26.400
It's not the content of the sentence.
link |
00:20:28.240
It's more that it's just a beautifully written sentence or like a particularly apt metaphor
link |
00:20:32.480
or something that's really nice.
link |
00:20:34.640
And I like paper books too because I bought Beautiful Ruins.
link |
00:20:38.160
I would have never heard of it, I don't think, except one of my favorite things is to go
link |
00:20:42.880
to used bookstores.
link |
00:20:45.200
Actually, Goodwill sometimes has really good big book selections depending on the area
link |
00:20:51.760
where you go.
link |
00:20:53.680
Sometimes you find a lot of treasures there.
link |
00:20:55.920
And what ends up happening a lot is I end up buying books that I know sometimes also
link |
00:21:00.880
because I lost all my belongings at one point.
link |
00:21:02.640
So, I'll very often buy books that I've already read just to have them.
link |
00:21:09.040
But then what always ends up happening is I'll find...
link |
00:21:13.040
There'll be a couple of books that I buy that I've never heard of the author.
link |
00:21:15.680
I don't really know anything about the book at all, but something drew me to it.
link |
00:21:19.760
And what I like about that is you're buying used books so it costs a dollar or two.
link |
00:21:25.200
So, if you made a mistake, like no big deal, who cares?
link |
00:21:28.160
So, but every time I come back with a book haul, there's usually at least one gem that
link |
00:21:35.520
I end up loving and I'm so glad that I read it.
link |
00:21:38.320
And Beautiful Ruins was that book for me.
link |
00:21:40.880
And I was drawn to it because of the cover art.
link |
00:21:42.880
Like I just loved the cover and the colors and then I picked it up and read the back
link |
00:21:48.640
and bought it.
link |
00:21:49.440
And I also feel bad sometimes buying used books when the author is still alive because
link |
00:21:54.880
I feel like if you write a book, you should get the royalties.
link |
00:21:59.360
So...
link |
00:21:59.920
But you get to live with that regret.
link |
00:22:02.640
Well, also, I mean, I'll usually end up putting a picture of Leon reading the book online
link |
00:22:07.680
and then other people buy it and read it.
link |
00:22:09.920
And so I feel like I've made up for...
link |
00:22:11.680
You make up for it.
link |
00:22:12.480
I've made up for depriving him of the royalties.
link |
00:22:15.840
I used to live in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
link |
00:22:18.880
I know it well.
link |
00:22:20.560
I used to hang out at the pit in Harvard Square with my green and blue hair when I was very
link |
00:22:26.640
way too young to be doing that by myself.
link |
00:22:29.040
And there's a guy that I think has been there for a long time, sort of between Kendall and
link |
00:22:35.520
Central that would just lay out used books and sell them.
link |
00:22:39.840
And I always loved that guy.
link |
00:22:41.280
Whoever he was, he had a cool hat.
link |
00:22:44.800
He's an older gentleman and you could just tell he's seen some things.
link |
00:22:49.360
I don't know who he is.
link |
00:22:50.640
I always wanted to actually like talk to him for a long time, but I was too afraid.
link |
00:22:55.680
Maybe because I wouldn't be able to handle what he had to tell me.
link |
00:22:59.440
Because I almost wanted to maintain the innocence of just, okay, here's this guy.
link |
00:23:02.960
But he was so...
link |
00:23:05.280
Every time you would ask him a question about a book, first of all, he's read all of them.
link |
00:23:08.880
Oh, that's interesting.
link |
00:23:09.840
Which means he's traveled quite a few places inside these worlds.
link |
00:23:14.320
And then you would tell him, I would look at a book and he would catch you being curious
link |
00:23:20.560
about it and then he would walk up to you and then he would start talking about the
link |
00:23:24.320
book and he would always forget that you were there.
link |
00:23:28.000
He's almost like, he's not trying to sell you the books.
link |
00:23:30.800
Part talking to himself?
link |
00:23:31.760
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
link |
00:23:33.840
Almost like an ex girlfriend he's visiting through this book or something.
link |
00:23:37.680
Did you buy books from him?
link |
00:23:38.720
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
link |
00:23:40.240
But the experience of just being there because he lays them out and people actually that
link |
00:23:45.120
watch or listen to this probably would be able to tell me what his name is because I'd
link |
00:23:48.880
love to find that guy again.
link |
00:23:50.000
I'm sure he's still there.
link |
00:23:50.960
Maybe you'll have him on the podcast.
link |
00:23:52.640
I 100% will.
link |
00:23:55.120
But it's almost terrifying.
link |
00:23:57.920
I'm not sure I can handle.
link |
00:23:59.760
Because he's been through some things.
link |
00:24:01.360
I'm not sure if he's homeless or just looks like it.
link |
00:24:05.600
Yep.
link |
00:24:06.880
That's sometimes a thing.
link |
00:24:08.000
That's sometimes a thing.
link |
00:24:10.960
And some of my favorite people either are homeless or look like it.
link |
00:24:17.040
Okay, what's the third one?
link |
00:24:18.960
The A Confession of a Sociopath by M.E. Thomas, A Life Spent Hiding in Plain Sight.
link |
00:24:24.800
It's a book I recommend a lot because I've read a lot about sociopathy and I've read
link |
00:24:31.360
all the books by psychologists and this one's written by a woman who understands herself
link |
00:24:39.040
that she is a sociopath.
link |
00:24:40.720
And so it's beautifully written, but I learned more from that book than from any other book.
link |
00:24:45.840
And I think I thought about it a long time ago.
link |
00:24:49.280
I think a lot of conversations you've talked a lot about good and evil and whether everybody's
link |
00:24:55.840
really good or some people are not good.
link |
00:24:58.400
And I think sociopathy is something that I think the world needs to understand much better.
link |
00:25:04.800
And so that book helped me understand a lot and it's beautifully written and she tackles
link |
00:25:10.320
all the really interesting moral questions like, you know, like what if we were able
link |
00:25:16.400
to definitively diagnose people in some way, like you could immediately identify who's
link |
00:25:25.200
a full blown sociopath and then what as a society would you do with them because in
link |
00:25:31.280
most cases, you know, they're just going to cause destruction and pain and harm and
link |
00:25:37.600
or potentially rise to power and become president or something.
link |
00:25:45.760
So I just found that book fascinating.
link |
00:25:48.080
And we'll return to this idea because it's fascinating.
link |
00:25:55.440
We'll return to human psychology and human nature.
link |
00:25:58.480
But let's go through the timeline of your life.
link |
00:26:05.600
Let's take a stroll.
link |
00:26:07.520
So you wrote that the documentary about you called Bad Vegan Fame Fraud Fugitives is
link |
00:26:13.680
not a documentary.
link |
00:26:15.120
It got some things right, some things wrong, and some were quote, disturbingly misleading.
link |
00:26:21.600
So let's go through and get things right today.
link |
00:26:26.720
First, can I give you a whirlwind summary the way I understand it and also for context
link |
00:26:31.440
of people.
link |
00:26:33.040
So 2004, you, Matthew Kenney, and Jeffrey Jotaro opened Pure Foods and Wine in New York
link |
00:26:42.480
City.
link |
00:26:42.960
Did I say their names correctly?
link |
00:26:44.400
Pure Food and Wine.
link |
00:26:45.520
No, their names.
link |
00:26:46.000
Oh, theirs.
link |
00:26:47.840
Well, yeah.
link |
00:26:48.800
Matthew Kenney and Jeffrey Jotaro.
link |
00:26:50.160
Yeah.
link |
00:26:50.560
Yeah.
link |
00:26:51.280
So it's, and I'll ask about what it takes to launch and run a restaurant in New York
link |
00:26:58.000
City.
link |
00:26:58.320
That's a fascinating story in itself.
link |
00:27:00.400
So it's an upscale raw food restaurant.
link |
00:27:03.600
All right, that's 2004.
link |
00:27:05.040
2007, you opened One Lucky Duck Juice and Takeaway.
link |
00:27:09.120
And second and third locations in 2009 and 14.
link |
00:27:12.480
All of those things closed in 2016, 15, 16, 15 and 16.
link |
00:27:20.880
Okay.
link |
00:27:22.080
All right.
link |
00:27:22.640
2009, Jeffrey lends you $2.1 million to buy the business outright and Matthew is out.
link |
00:27:31.040
Matthew was out earlier than that.
link |
00:27:33.200
And then time passed, time passed.
link |
00:27:35.520
And I had, what was complicated is I had started the One Lucky Duck brand on my own.
link |
00:27:42.720
At first it was a dot com that was doing like delivery.
link |
00:27:46.720
It was a dot com where people could order ingredients and things and all of the
link |
00:27:51.840
products that we made and packaged.
link |
00:27:53.360
So we made a bunch of cookies and snacks and things that were, I think, different.
link |
00:27:57.520
And if I may say so myself, better than other.
link |
00:28:02.000
Strong words.
link |
00:28:03.200
Products out there.
link |
00:28:03.920
Talking trash already.
link |
00:28:05.200
Yeah.
link |
00:28:05.440
About the cookies.
link |
00:28:06.400
But I feel like I can brag about our food and products because a few recipes early on
link |
00:28:14.720
I came up with, but it was the people that worked with me that created really good recipes
link |
00:28:21.920
and products.
link |
00:28:22.720
And I was just kind of there curating it all or helping to get it out there.
link |
00:28:32.240
What was your favorite thing that you've created, maybe yourself eat?
link |
00:28:36.320
That not you created, but this whole, all of these efforts have created in terms of
link |
00:28:41.040
meal.
link |
00:28:42.000
Like you said, cookies.
link |
00:28:43.920
What are we talking about here?
link |
00:28:44.560
Oh, that's a hard question.
link |
00:28:46.320
It's just, okay, not the favorite, but like something that pops into memory that brought
link |
00:28:49.840
you joy.
link |
00:28:51.120
The Malamar.
link |
00:28:52.640
Everybody loved the Malamar.
link |
00:28:54.720
So very often we made like raw vegan versions of things that people are familiar with.
link |
00:29:01.280
So it was a, I think it was pecans.
link |
00:29:04.080
It was like a salty cookie made with nuts and then covered in chocolate.
link |
00:29:08.160
And then there's a big blob of coconut cream, which it didn't taste coconutty.
link |
00:29:16.480
Our ice cream was made with a coconut also.
link |
00:29:19.200
It's like the meat from coconuts pureed.
link |
00:29:21.840
And then there's some soaked cashews in there.
link |
00:29:23.840
But anyway, it was a blob of vanilla flavored cream, kind of like a healthy natural version
link |
00:29:29.920
of fluff.
link |
00:29:31.440
I don't know if you're familiar with fluff.
link |
00:29:32.720
Basically every single word you say, I'm not familiar with.
link |
00:29:35.840
You should see my diet.
link |
00:29:37.040
I don't, it's like steak and vegetables.
link |
00:29:40.160
Fluff is like a thing that I remember it from my childhood, like peanut butter and fluff
link |
00:29:44.720
is a ridiculously delicious combination.
link |
00:29:47.120
Is it fluffy or is it not?
link |
00:29:48.160
It's like a marshmallow.
link |
00:29:49.120
It's basically like, like if you softened the marshmallows and made it into a luxurious,
link |
00:29:55.440
amazing goo.
link |
00:29:56.400
Oh, so it's like a fancy marshmallow.
link |
00:29:57.280
And then put it in a jar.
link |
00:29:58.880
Okay.
link |
00:29:59.360
And then made it spreadable.
link |
00:30:01.120
It's spreadable marshmallows, kind of.
link |
00:30:03.440
Oh, I see.
link |
00:30:04.960
I think that's, yeah.
link |
00:30:06.240
So spreadable marshmallows.
link |
00:30:07.520
Got it.
link |
00:30:08.000
Yeah.
link |
00:30:08.320
So there's a big blob of that.
link |
00:30:09.360
I didn't know that existed.
link |
00:30:10.400
That's a thing?
link |
00:30:11.200
Fluff.
link |
00:30:11.840
Fluff.
link |
00:30:12.640
I know.
link |
00:30:13.120
Does everyone, do people know about this?
link |
00:30:16.400
Oh yeah, everybody knows.
link |
00:30:17.440
Okay.
link |
00:30:18.480
People, I mean, I think so.
link |
00:30:19.760
People know about fluff.
link |
00:30:21.120
See, I think I went, I took the road less traveled by, you know, I went the peanut butter
link |
00:30:27.360
and Nutella road in terms of spreadable things.
link |
00:30:30.480
Nutella is like the chocolate version.
link |
00:30:33.280
And then fluff is like the vanilla equivalent sort of.
link |
00:30:37.680
Cool.
link |
00:30:38.240
But I think commercial fluff that you buy in the store is just like sugar and whatever
link |
00:30:42.800
else they put in there.
link |
00:30:45.920
It's not actually fluffy.
link |
00:30:48.000
It's kind of fluffy.
link |
00:30:49.520
Okay.
link |
00:30:49.920
But it's wet.
link |
00:30:51.200
Because Nutella is not fluffy.
link |
00:30:53.200
Yeah, it's, it, so it's like Nutella if you whipped it and then kind of got a little bit
link |
00:30:59.120
like a little bit aerated.
link |
00:31:01.440
Okay.
link |
00:31:01.680
So it's a bit more fluffy.
link |
00:31:03.760
So fluff was a part of the formula here.
link |
00:31:06.160
So this fluff.
link |
00:31:06.960
So the, the coconut cream that we made was like a healthy version of fluff kind of.
link |
00:31:15.040
Nice.
link |
00:31:15.600
Except it would, you know, you could make a, a Quesnel, like a, like a little scoop
link |
00:31:20.800
of it and it would stay in that form.
link |
00:31:24.000
Malamars were refrigerated and then there's like chocolate drizzled over that.
link |
00:31:29.200
So it had that like salty, sweet thing going on.
link |
00:31:33.360
That was probably my favorite.
link |
00:31:35.200
That's a dessert.
link |
00:31:36.720
Yeah, it was like a, it was like a dessert snack.
link |
00:31:39.520
It wasn't as, you wouldn't order it on the restaurant menu, but in the takeaway you could
link |
00:31:43.040
get them or sometimes some people would get them shipped on dry ice and pay a lot of money,
link |
00:31:51.600
like a lot of money to have them shipped on dry ice.
link |
00:31:54.720
People are funny.
link |
00:31:55.840
I know.
link |
00:31:56.480
I kind of want to like name drop cause it was Tom Brady used to order them.
link |
00:32:00.320
Oh, that's awesome.
link |
00:32:01.280
Yeah.
link |
00:32:01.600
They would order those shipped on ice to Boston.
link |
00:32:08.160
Yeah.
link |
00:32:08.480
Um, continuing on in 2011, you meet Anthony Strangers on Twitter and then in real life,
link |
00:32:15.840
also around this time, I think before you got your rescue dog, a pit bull named Leon.
link |
00:32:22.960
Yeah.
link |
00:32:23.120
2011, 2010.
link |
00:32:24.560
Do you remember?
link |
00:32:25.120
Um, it was September, 2010.
link |
00:32:27.840
So, cause I think he was born roughly around March.
link |
00:32:30.560
I gave him a designated birthday of March 10th, 2010.
link |
00:32:34.800
Why is that?
link |
00:32:35.520
Why, why March 10th?
link |
00:32:37.360
I wrote about the story of adopting him on my website a long time ago.
link |
00:32:42.000
And then I reposted it here on my current website.
link |
00:32:44.560
And, um, what happened, I got weirdly obsessed with Leon before he was Leon.
link |
00:32:50.000
He was a dog in a shelter named Quinn and, um, I couldn't stop thinking about him and the
link |
00:32:55.600
Him specifically.
link |
00:32:56.800
Him specifically.
link |
00:32:57.520
You saw him and there's something very special about him.
link |
00:33:00.480
I was trying to convince somebody else to adopt a dog.
link |
00:33:03.280
So, and I
link |
00:33:04.560
Alec Baldwin.
link |
00:33:05.520
Yeah, and it didn't occur to me that I would get a dog.
link |
00:33:07.760
I like how you didn't name drop him, but you named him Tom Brady.
link |
00:33:12.880
I like it.
link |
00:33:13.760
Um, so I was trying to convince him to get a dog cause I thought, you know, he should
link |
00:33:19.920
have a dog.
link |
00:33:21.200
I saw Leon's picture and just got weirdly obsessed with it in a way that I couldn't
link |
00:33:25.520
really explain.
link |
00:33:26.240
And, um, I was laying in bed one night and thinking, I just couldn't stop thinking about
link |
00:33:30.560
him, um, the dog and the paperwork or the, his description in the shelter bio said that
link |
00:33:38.880
he was roughly five months old or however, whatever it gave us his age.
link |
00:33:43.040
I went back and it would have been March 20, would have been March of that year that he
link |
00:33:48.560
was born.
link |
00:33:49.760
And, um, I had a cat that I was particularly attached to.
link |
00:33:54.320
I had two cats, brother and sister, but the boy cat, we had sort of like a, something
link |
00:33:59.120
that felt like a, you know, like we'd look at each other and like there was something
link |
00:34:04.000
there.
link |
00:34:04.400
I don't know what it was, but, um, and in fact, when he got sick, I knew it before
link |
00:34:09.360
he even had any symptoms.
link |
00:34:10.560
It was like something in the way that he looked at me.
link |
00:34:12.640
I knew something was wrong.
link |
00:34:14.240
And then, uh, was it friendship?
link |
00:34:16.720
Was it like, uh, was there a power dynamic?
link |
00:34:21.600
Cats seem to not really give a fuck.
link |
00:34:24.320
Yeah.
link |
00:34:24.880
They seem to dismiss you.
link |
00:34:27.520
Usually.
link |
00:34:28.160
Yeah.
link |
00:34:29.120
Your entire worth as a human being.
link |
00:34:31.120
Right.
link |
00:34:31.520
In a single look.
link |
00:34:33.120
Was that there or?
link |
00:34:34.160
Um, he was more dog like.
link |
00:34:37.440
He would occasionally fetch like this little styrofoam thing I had.
link |
00:34:40.960
He would fetch it and bring it back and he was, um, friendly and, you know, if somebody
link |
00:34:45.760
came over, he would jump in their lap.
link |
00:34:47.520
Um, he was less standoffish than most cats.
link |
00:34:51.520
Um, but there was just something about the way he would look at me.
link |
00:34:54.960
I don't know.
link |
00:34:55.520
And I maybe probably in his mind, he's just a cat.
link |
00:35:00.880
I give him food.
link |
00:35:02.320
Whereas in my mind, it's some kind of, you know, great soul connection.
link |
00:35:07.360
Great, great long running, uh, romance.
link |
00:35:10.320
Not in his kitty mind, but either way.
link |
00:35:12.240
So he died in March and I thought, um, so I sort of concocted this.
link |
00:35:18.160
I just thought, um, you know, that, well, if he died and he died on March 10th.
link |
00:35:24.240
And so I thought, well, maybe Leon was born that same day.
link |
00:35:26.880
And that's why, that's why I'm so drawn to him.
link |
00:35:31.680
I don't know.
link |
00:35:33.920
Okay.
link |
00:35:34.240
That makes sense.
link |
00:35:35.360
But then you just felt like when you saw him, you just like, there's something.
link |
00:35:39.920
It was his picture.
link |
00:35:40.880
Yeah.
link |
00:35:41.280
Oh, the picture.
link |
00:35:42.160
And you were drawn something about the personality in the eyes.
link |
00:35:47.200
It was something about his picture.
link |
00:35:48.480
I don't know what it was.
link |
00:35:49.520
And, um, and everybody at the time was like, what are you thinking?
link |
00:35:55.520
Why would you get a dog?
link |
00:35:56.640
You can't, you know, can't even take care of yourself.
link |
00:36:00.160
You're overworked and busy.
link |
00:36:01.920
And why would you get a five month old pit bull mix?
link |
00:36:05.520
You know, why not get an older dog?
link |
00:36:06.960
That's easier to take care of.
link |
00:36:08.160
And, um, for me, it was like, I don't, I don't want any dog.
link |
00:36:12.160
I don't want, my intention isn't to get a dog, but there's something about this dog that I
link |
00:36:17.840
have to get.
link |
00:36:18.480
And so I went to see him, um, and then I had already filled out an application.
link |
00:36:25.920
It was just, I went to see him and then I, it was the afternoon and I sort of decided in my head,
link |
00:36:33.440
like, all right, I'm coming back to get him.
link |
00:36:35.120
I have to.
link |
00:36:35.920
And so the next morning I got on the subway and went back to get him.
link |
00:36:38.960
Um, and I was crying on the subway.
link |
00:36:41.440
And I remember thinking that people, I don't like crying in public.
link |
00:36:44.960
I cry a lot, but I don't like crying in front of other people.
link |
00:36:47.440
Yeah.
link |
00:36:48.000
And, um.
link |
00:36:48.640
I love it.
link |
00:36:51.520
I thought people on the train looking at me probably think that, you know, I just,
link |
00:36:55.680
somebody died or.
link |
00:36:56.800
Sorry, you, you're crying on the way there or on the way back?
link |
00:36:59.040
On the way there to get him.
link |
00:37:00.480
Yeah.
link |
00:37:00.800
I don't, and I don't know why I was crying.
link |
00:37:02.480
It was just something about it was overwhelming.
link |
00:37:04.240
So.
link |
00:37:05.200
So tears of happiness or tears of something.
link |
00:37:08.480
Something.
link |
00:37:09.200
I, yeah, I think tears are overwhelming.
link |
00:37:13.520
I, and now I'm like jumping off, but there was some, I don't, now I'm trying.
link |
00:37:19.600
Was it in your conversation or the book?
link |
00:37:21.520
Carl Diceruff talks about tears of joy and trying to explain them.
link |
00:37:25.680
And he said something about how it was like about, you know, cause tears of sadness could
link |
00:37:32.080
be understood in a having like a evolutionary purpose.
link |
00:37:36.320
Um, but why tears of joy?
link |
00:37:38.320
And I think he said it was something about like hope that could be like lost.
link |
00:37:46.000
So if you cried at a wedding, it might be like, you're crying because their love is
link |
00:37:50.880
beautiful and you're crying because, you know, they could get hit by a bus tomorrow or
link |
00:37:55.760
something, you know, like it had something to do with that.
link |
00:37:57.600
And I thought, um, but I thought to me, it feels like overwhelmed.
link |
00:38:02.720
Cause then how would that explain music?
link |
00:38:05.040
Cause music will make me cry.
link |
00:38:06.400
A lot because it's, it's anything beautiful, like love, you realize you're going to have,
link |
00:38:14.320
it's going to be over one day.
link |
00:38:16.240
So it's just overwhelming.
link |
00:38:18.240
It could be overwhelming.
link |
00:38:19.280
I think it's just overwhelming.
link |
00:38:20.400
But over, it could be like, if you had to explain like one way to explain it, as you're
link |
00:38:25.680
saying is it's so awesome that it breaks your heart.
link |
00:38:29.920
That's going to be over.
link |
00:38:30.880
This feeling is going to be over the either it's the song or the person.
link |
00:38:37.120
You're going to lose them one day.
link |
00:38:39.600
But even when you're just watching something that this is completely ridiculous, but I
link |
00:38:43.520
remember one time I probably was hormonal or something, but it was like an episode of
link |
00:38:48.800
family feud years ago and the fam, oh no.
link |
00:38:53.200
Um, wheel of fortune.
link |
00:38:55.040
It was wheel of fortune and some family like won all this money and they were so happy.
link |
00:38:58.960
Like it just, they were so happy.
link |
00:39:01.200
They must probably needed the money or something.
link |
00:39:03.120
I started crying and I'm thinking, why am I crying?
link |
00:39:06.080
But I think it's just, I think it's just like an overwhelming, I think it's overwhelming
link |
00:39:10.640
in some way and crying because crying is a relief.
link |
00:39:14.240
Like you feel better after you cry, but that's not, doesn't explain the crying.
link |
00:39:20.320
You feel better after you cry and you're saying it's overwhelming, but that's on the surface.
link |
00:39:25.840
The question is what's going on underneath.
link |
00:39:28.080
That's the yin and yang shadow.
link |
00:39:30.560
And I don't think neither you or I can answer that question, but there's something going
link |
00:39:34.640
on underneath.
link |
00:39:35.040
There's probably something that touches you in some specific way.
link |
00:39:38.880
Yeah.
link |
00:39:40.160
And so you were crying on the subway.
link |
00:39:42.480
So I was crying on the subway.
link |
00:39:43.520
It's very, it's very New York thing to do.
link |
00:39:45.600
Yeah.
link |
00:39:46.160
Well, that's one of the things I love about New York is people, you can be weird and do
link |
00:39:51.520
strange things and nobody's going to look at you strangely or.
link |
00:39:54.400
The fascinating thing about New York is super crowded and yet you can still feel super alone.
link |
00:40:01.840
But also energized because a lot of other things and places will make me feel depleted,
link |
00:40:09.280
but there's something about the energy of New York specifically that feels energizing.
link |
00:40:14.400
I mean, everybody's going up about their day excited for a future they're building and
link |
00:40:20.240
so on and that could be energy.
link |
00:40:24.480
Sure.
link |
00:40:25.840
Sure.
link |
00:40:26.720
It could be overwhelming though.
link |
00:40:28.720
It can be.
link |
00:40:29.680
Yeah.
link |
00:40:30.000
I mean, also depending on what neighborhood and what part.
link |
00:40:33.440
Well, I'm just talking about the subway.
link |
00:40:35.360
Right.
link |
00:40:36.480
And then there's the musicians.
link |
00:40:38.400
I love New York.
link |
00:40:39.120
New York at its best is a special place.
link |
00:40:41.280
I've never lived, but every time I visit, it's so many characters, so many fascinating
link |
00:40:46.480
people.
link |
00:40:46.800
Yeah, and then there's a bunch of people always crying in the subway and you're one of those
link |
00:40:50.800
people.
link |
00:40:51.120
I was one of those people one day.
link |
00:40:52.800
Yeah.
link |
00:40:53.280
So you got.
link |
00:40:53.760
I befriended some busking musicians like the guys that just play out on the street, these
link |
00:41:00.080
two young guys playing guitar.
link |
00:41:01.280
And I felt like it was one of those moments where it was like candid camera because nobody
link |
00:41:05.120
was paying attention and I thought it was like, it was so beautiful.
link |
00:41:08.880
I may have cried or almost cried or, but anyway, I ended up becoming friends with them and
link |
00:41:14.080
helping them out in some ways.
link |
00:41:15.680
And I knew, I was like, well, they're gonna do really well.
link |
00:41:21.920
And now they're like playing large places and it's kind of fun to watch via Instagram.
link |
00:41:28.640
You know, they're going on tour in Europe and they were these two scrappy guys.
link |
00:41:34.320
Well, now it's just one of the guys.
link |
00:41:37.360
But they had like no money, nowhere to live, nothing.
link |
00:41:40.800
And now they're on tour.
link |
00:41:42.880
And they didn't quit?
link |
00:41:44.480
No.
link |
00:41:45.040
Persisted.
link |
00:41:46.000
That's cool.
link |
00:41:46.800
Exactly.
link |
00:41:47.360
So, but I cried on the subway and I got there and he was there and I adopted him.
link |
00:41:52.880
But it just felt very profoundly like a force that was beyond me.
link |
00:42:01.120
Like I couldn't not get him.
link |
00:42:03.200
So he was the same in person as he was in the picture.
link |
00:42:06.960
Like, meaning in terms of like something like pulling you towards him, like some.
link |
00:42:13.360
Yeah, when I first met him the day before, he was really distracted, which I think is,
link |
00:42:19.760
you know, he is a puppy that spends most of his day in a cage, which is not natural.
link |
00:42:23.760
So when I, they let me take him for a walk and he was kind of, you know,
link |
00:42:28.880
distracted and all over the place.
link |
00:42:30.320
But then when we put him back in the cage, he sort of lay down and looked at me and I
link |
00:42:35.760
looked back at him.
link |
00:42:36.560
And of course, I imagined all kinds of, I just looked at him and I thought, all right,
link |
00:42:40.960
I'm, don't worry, I'm coming back to get you.
link |
00:42:43.600
Like I'll, I'll get you.
link |
00:42:45.520
So, yeah, it just, it felt like, it felt like something that I had no choice that I had to do.
link |
00:42:56.800
And that was the beginning of a 12 year journey together.
link |
00:43:01.120
An ongoing, an ongoing one.
link |
00:43:03.040
But so I wrote about these things on my website and I think it was, you know, among the many
link |
00:43:08.800
things that was later weaponized by Anthony Strangest.
link |
00:43:16.240
Just because I was so open about it.
link |
00:43:19.280
Yeah.
link |
00:43:19.600
And also just, it's not like I believe that he was, you know, that I was just expressing
link |
00:43:24.480
my feelings about how I felt going to get him, that there was something about Leon specifically
link |
00:43:30.080
that I, it was like, I felt like I had to get him.
link |
00:43:32.800
So, is there words you can put to your connection with Leon?
link |
00:43:38.720
Like, is it love?
link |
00:43:41.040
Is it friendship?
link |
00:43:43.760
Is it some kind of, like, what is it?
link |
00:43:49.200
Or are we getting to the crying and being overwhelmed?
link |
00:43:53.040
Something you just can't put words to?
link |
00:43:56.080
Yeah, it's probably something that's hard to put words to.
link |
00:43:58.400
Kind of like, I sort of feel like love being something that's hard to define is part of,
link |
00:44:07.840
is the definition of love.
link |
00:44:09.840
The fact that you can't define it.
link |
00:44:11.520
You know, the moment you define it, you're no longer talking about love.
link |
00:44:14.960
Sort of, something like that.
link |
00:44:17.680
So.
link |
00:44:18.320
Well, my definition of love is whatever's going on in true romance.
link |
00:44:22.400
I don't know.
link |
00:44:22.880
Let me fly through the timeline before we get to any of the interesting details.
link |
00:44:28.880
So, in 2011, you meet Anthony Stranjes.
link |
00:44:33.840
Then in 2012, you two get married.
link |
00:44:38.080
2015, the staff walk out due to failure to pay from the two restaurants.
link |
00:44:45.440
It reopens in April of 2015 and July of that year, there's another walkout.
link |
00:44:51.840
And so on.
link |
00:44:52.960
There's all this kind of stuff.
link |
00:44:54.880
It's a confusing timeline.
link |
00:44:56.720
Well, it's not, to me, that's not even.
link |
00:44:59.040
The point is in 2015, there's chaos happening.
link |
00:45:03.280
Okay.
link |
00:45:04.560
2016, in the spring, Pure Foods and Wine closes.
link |
00:45:09.280
Closed in 2015.
link |
00:45:11.920
2015.
link |
00:45:12.560
Okay.
link |
00:45:13.520
There's some factual stuff that's not, yeah, maybe correct me on it.
link |
00:45:17.360
To me, it's not that important.
link |
00:45:18.560
To me, the spirit of the thing is important.
link |
00:45:21.040
Okay.
link |
00:45:21.680
May 12, 2016, you and your then husband, Anthony Stranjes,
link |
00:45:27.760
were arrested after he ordered pizza using his real name.
link |
00:45:31.920
Okay.
link |
00:45:32.640
In May 2017, you pleaded guilty to stealing more than $2 million from investors
link |
00:45:39.440
and scheming to defraud, as well as, this is from Wikipedia.
link |
00:45:44.560
Yeah, that's wrong.
link |
00:45:46.160
Well, let me just finish reading it and then you tell me why it's wrong.
link |
00:45:49.040
In May 2017, you pleaded guilty to stealing more than $2 million from investors
link |
00:45:54.160
and scheming to defraud, as well as, criminal tax fraud charges.
link |
00:45:58.080
Why is Wikipedia wrong?
link |
00:45:59.680
And how dare you?
link |
00:46:01.760
Well, I mean, I did plead guilty to those things, which I had to.
link |
00:46:05.920
Oh, I got a jury duty summons and I had to fill out what charges I pled guilty to.
link |
00:46:12.960
And I had to go online and look it up because I didn't really remember,
link |
00:46:17.760
which is, I thought that was interesting.
link |
00:46:19.920
I had to go look it up, but...
link |
00:46:21.440
Actually, let me finish the time because there's one more point.
link |
00:46:23.440
Oh, yeah.
link |
00:46:24.880
March 16, 2022, Bad Vegan Documentary comes out, where you're interviewed.
link |
00:46:32.160
Does they tell the story?
link |
00:46:35.200
Some stuff is true, some is not, some is disturbingly misleading, as you said.
link |
00:46:39.760
Okay.
link |
00:46:40.240
Timeline over.
link |
00:46:41.120
Anyway, what's wrong with the...
link |
00:46:42.960
How would you elaborate onto the you pleading guilty for $2 million stealing?
link |
00:46:49.280
So, a lot of people plead guilty for reasons other than they're actually guilty.
link |
00:46:55.040
So, even right now, if I knew that I was going to have to spend four months or three and a half
link |
00:47:04.000
at Rikers, and I was thinking about this recently, and even if I knew that I'd be acquitted,
link |
00:47:11.200
at the end of a trial, I very likely would have just taken the four months because the stress
link |
00:47:23.280
of going through a trial, but in particular, it'd be incredibly stressful not knowing the outcome.
link |
00:47:28.880
And then money and expense I didn't have.
link |
00:47:31.440
And so, people plead guilty all the time, even if they don't think that they should.
link |
00:47:36.800
And my situation was so complicated and hard to understand that it just was the easier thing to do.
link |
00:47:44.480
But also, I just was kind of going on the advice of lawyers and...
link |
00:47:48.960
So, the choice, just so I understand, was to plead guilty or to go through a lengthy trial.
link |
00:47:56.880
And that trial would stretch a long time, and it would be extremely stressful.
link |
00:48:03.520
And extremely expensive.
link |
00:48:08.400
Because you have to pay the lawyers.
link |
00:48:10.240
Right. And I didn't have anything.
link |
00:48:11.840
Right. And so, a lot of people in that situation might choose to plead guilty.
link |
00:48:18.320
And so, that doesn't necessarily mean the full heaviness of that statement of guilt.
link |
00:48:24.640
Right. And I think people plead guilty all the time in situations where they're being threatened with
link |
00:48:30.240
a heavy sentence, and they sort of feel like they have no choice.
link |
00:48:36.160
But that's kind of part of a lot of things that are messed up about the system overall
link |
00:48:41.120
that didn't necessarily apply in my case.
link |
00:48:43.120
So, we'll talk about to what degree you're guilty and what that even means.
link |
00:48:49.920
Yeah. Yeah. Because it depends on intention, I think.
link |
00:48:54.960
Yeah. Yeah. But then the word intention also means a lot of things, like the word love.
link |
00:49:01.680
That's true.
link |
00:49:02.720
All right.
link |
00:49:04.720
So, the restaurant closed the first time when I was away and told to be off communication.
link |
00:49:16.320
And then I...
link |
00:49:17.120
By Anthony.
link |
00:49:17.840
Yes. And then...
link |
00:49:20.160
He told you not to talk to anybody.
link |
00:49:21.840
He told me not to talk to anybody.
link |
00:49:23.520
He told me not to like open email or look at my phone or whatever.
link |
00:49:29.920
And so, when I came back and had to get it reopened, which seemed like
link |
00:49:37.600
an unbelievably difficult task, and I was kind of shocked that I was able to pull it off.
link |
00:49:43.600
You know, I worked incredibly hard to get it reopened.
link |
00:49:46.800
And, you know, because that place meant everything to me. And so, I just had to get it reopened.
link |
00:49:55.520
Were you surrounded by people that were just angry at you?
link |
00:49:58.400
At that time? Not... Well...
link |
00:50:00.000
Just the staff and all that.
link |
00:50:02.960
Yeah, but most of them came back. A lot of them came back.
link |
00:50:05.840
I think what was so unbelievably painful about that whole time
link |
00:50:11.600
was like not being able to tell anybody what was really going on.
link |
00:50:15.200
And in a sense, not really knowing what was going on myself, but not being able to...
link |
00:50:19.520
Like having to pretend all the time was just like soul crushing.
link |
00:50:23.520
So you didn't really tell anybody about Anthony?
link |
00:50:26.560
About him and what was really going on,
link |
00:50:28.800
in part because I didn't really understand what was going on.
link |
00:50:31.600
So what I did was I raised money to reopen the restaurant,
link |
00:50:34.400
and I think I raised something like eight, maybe like 900 grand.
link |
00:50:40.480
And probably 90% of that went to reopen the restaurant.
link |
00:50:47.760
And I even made two sales tax payments right before we disappeared.
link |
00:50:53.680
So it just sort of logically seemed like...
link |
00:50:57.200
So I didn't... It's not like all of this money was taken
link |
00:51:00.320
and then he and I ran off together with a whole bunch of money.
link |
00:51:04.800
It was like I raised a bunch of money to reopen the restaurant,
link |
00:51:07.680
not because I wanted the restaurant to exist again and I wanted to run it.
link |
00:51:14.480
I wanted to reopen the restaurant.
link |
00:51:16.640
And most of that money went to reopen the restaurant and then I disappeared.
link |
00:51:23.600
So sort of the timeline gets a bit wonky.
link |
00:51:29.600
So this impression was created that we ran off with a whole bunch of money and we didn't.
link |
00:51:35.600
So if I wanted to be a criminal and steal a bunch of money,
link |
00:51:40.400
why would I have put it all back into the restaurant and reopened it?
link |
00:51:44.400
And then also made two $10,000 sales tax payments that I didn't...
link |
00:51:50.800
And I also repaid $10,000 of another loan.
link |
00:51:55.840
I was making repayments and stuff and then boom, I disappear.
link |
00:51:58.560
So is your mind going through a roller coaster here? So could there have been multiple yous there?
link |
00:52:05.920
So one mind is like, I love this restaurant. I'm going to reopen it.
link |
00:52:10.800
I'm this chef, business owner, this person.
link |
00:52:15.920
And then the other is a human that's in this complicated love affair.
link |
00:52:22.880
It wasn't a love affair.
link |
00:52:24.480
Okay. These are just words. How can I... Okay.
link |
00:52:30.480
I don't want to... I say that lightly, but also not because love can make us do dark things.
link |
00:52:38.960
You can say that's not love, but okay.
link |
00:52:43.920
The thing that traps us, the things that pulls us in to a connection with another human being,
link |
00:52:49.440
that's love, even when it's abusive and dark and toxic and all those kinds of things.
link |
00:52:54.720
In some cases, I think, like if it's voluntary, but in other cases, somebody pulls you in.
link |
00:53:01.360
So it's not like you're drawn towards them. They pull you in.
link |
00:53:05.760
So just to clarify, even when it's not physical, when the pull is with words, so it's emotional.
link |
00:53:13.600
Yeah.
link |
00:53:14.160
Okay. Where is your mind when you raise $800,000 to $900,000 to open the restaurant,
link |
00:53:25.280
working your ass off to open this thing, making payments, and then all of a sudden disappearing?
link |
00:53:33.440
Where was your mind? If you had a lengthy conversation with Karl Deisseroth
link |
00:53:39.440
in privacy, what would you be telling him as your therapist?
link |
00:53:42.000
I would probably be asking him questions.
link |
00:53:45.680
Okay, no. I forget Karl is part of this.
link |
00:53:48.160
Well, actually, I have more questions for Andrew Huberman because I've had to
link |
00:53:54.480
investigate all of these things myself, like dissociation.
link |
00:54:02.320
There's a psychologist who believes that he must have used neurolinguistic programming on me,
link |
00:54:07.360
which is something that Keith Ranieri from the NXIVM cult, he was known to have used that with
link |
00:54:12.880
people. And I think neurolinguistic programming is kind of the same as like a sort of like hypnotism.
link |
00:54:20.560
The only reason I know about what NLP is, is because in what I do, there's something called
link |
00:54:26.400
natural language processing, artificial intelligence stuff. So it has the same, like three letters.
link |
00:54:32.240
Right.
link |
00:54:33.520
What was the other thing that NLP, neurolinguistic program?
link |
00:54:36.160
Neurolinguistic programming.
link |
00:54:37.840
Yeah. Anyway. All right. Well, we talked about Andrew, my friend Andrew Huberman offline,
link |
00:54:44.480
and you definitely, you should do a podcast with him. He's a fascinating, he's such a
link |
00:54:48.800
brilliant and kind human being. Definitely worth talking to.
link |
00:54:52.320
Yeah, I've listened to a lot of his podcasts.
link |
00:54:54.960
And you said that you listened to a lot of his instructions on getting light
link |
00:55:00.560
in the morning or whatever during the day. It's very important for your
link |
00:55:03.440
mental, like there's all these kinds of studies. It's good for your mind, for your...
link |
00:55:07.760
Oh, and also the other thing that he got me to do is to try to delay having coffee. So instead of
link |
00:55:13.200
having coffee right when you wake up, I always drink a lot of water first, but then instead of
link |
00:55:17.680
having coffee right away, if you wait an hour or an hour and a half or two hours, then your body is
link |
00:55:23.680
able to naturally do something that drinking coffee too soon would sort of blunt that. So then
link |
00:55:29.600
you'll be more tired in the afternoon. So if you wait an hour and a half or two hours, or as long,
link |
00:55:35.920
you know, before you have your first cup of coffee, then you won't be as tired in the afternoon.
link |
00:55:40.640
Interesting.
link |
00:55:41.360
There's a lot of...
link |
00:55:42.400
Does it work?
link |
00:55:43.200
Yes.
link |
00:55:43.920
One coffee addict talking to another coffee addict.
link |
00:55:46.400
Yes, it works. And so I try to get up and do other things first before I have coffee.
link |
00:55:53.600
And the light thing also makes a lot of sense to me. Getting light early in the morning, I have one
link |
00:56:00.960
of those bright light boxes, and I would love to have an apartment that had a little deck or
link |
00:56:07.680
something where I could just step outside, because when you live in an apartment, you kind of have to
link |
00:56:11.360
like go all the way outside, and then there's people everywhere. And so to get that early
link |
00:56:16.000
morning light isn't that hard to do when you're...
link |
00:56:18.080
Are people good for you or bad for you?
link |
00:56:19.680
What does Andrew Huberman say about that? I'm just kidding, it's a joke. Okay, so moving back to
link |
00:56:25.040
where was your mind that led you to disappear to, did you guys go to Vegas first and then to Tennessee?
link |
00:56:31.440
No, I kind of refer to it as like the road trip from hell.
link |
00:56:34.880
It's a very Hunter S. Thompson way to describe it. You went back to back country.
link |
00:56:40.000
Maybe it was sort of Hunter S. Thompsonesque, except without actual drugs.
link |
00:56:45.200
That was one of the first questions my father asked me was, was it drugs? And I wished that I could have said yes,
link |
00:56:53.440
because I didn't know how to explain what had happened. But he took me away involuntarily,
link |
00:57:01.840
except, you know, of course, he wasn't holding a gun to my head. But all along, it was like a metaphorical gun.
link |
00:57:09.280
Was there ever physical contact with your father?
link |
00:57:12.560
No. What would qualify as sexual abuse? Yes. But physically, no.
link |
00:57:22.160
A couple of times we would get into a slightly physical fights, but he never...
link |
00:57:27.280
I mean, he was big and as large and blubbery as he was. He was also really strong.
link |
00:57:37.360
So sometimes he would like subdue me. But other than that, no, there wasn't physical violence.
link |
00:57:42.800
But a lot of people will say that the psychological violence is, I don't want to diminish physical violence,
link |
00:57:52.720
but some people say that the psychological and emotional violence is more destructive.
link |
00:57:57.360
It's just that the physical violence is easier to identify.
link |
00:58:01.360
It's easier to identify. It's easier to identify the physical violence.
link |
00:58:05.360
It's easier to identify. It's easier to identify and it seems kind of more straightforward.
link |
00:58:10.400
Whereas psychological, you know, and you have a bruise on your face or you break a bone and those things
link |
00:58:15.280
hopefully heal in a visible way. But psychological stuff, you know, you can't easily identify or understand
link |
00:58:25.440
or others can't easily identify it. And then you find yourself crying for no reason at a beautiful song at some point.
link |
00:58:32.720
And that has to do something happening in the depth of your mind.
link |
00:58:38.080
Okay, so he took you away. But where was, I mean, where was your mind that was doing both of those things?
link |
00:58:46.080
Was able to be taken away, but also was pushing to the flourishing, the reopening and the flourishing of the restaurant?
link |
00:58:55.600
Well, you know, I wouldn't have reopened the restaurant and then knowing I was gonna all of a sudden be taken away from it
link |
00:59:01.840
and it was gonna get closed again. You know, it's like, why would I do that? Why would anybody do that?
link |
00:59:07.680
And one of the things that I tried to do towards the end was I was trying to get myself off the bank accounts
link |
00:59:14.160
because I didn't want him to be able to get money out of me. And so there was one time when I tried to get one of the investors,
link |
00:59:21.280
we went to the bank together to put her on as the signer and take me off.
link |
00:59:25.760
And because we didn't have the operating agreement, they wouldn't let us do it.
link |
00:59:29.200
So it was like this little snafu. And so all of these things are sort of the opposite of criminal intent.
link |
00:59:38.560
But that's a legal thing. What's going on in your mind at this time?
link |
00:59:43.280
I don't know. I mean...
link |
00:59:44.960
Were you, did you give yourself a chance to just think?
link |
00:59:51.280
No. And I think that's part of one of the things that might have saved me or anybody that's pulled into a cult.
link |
00:59:59.600
One of the things that they do is they keep you exhausted, overwhelmed, confused and afraid.
link |
01:00:08.160
And so you don't have any time to think. So you're just kind of constantly running and you're confused and then things are happening.
link |
01:00:14.240
That's funny. I have some quotes in my book draft because I listen to a lot of podcasts.
link |
01:00:18.320
I don't know what the logistics are of like crediting a quote from a podcast in a book.
link |
01:00:24.560
But I have a couple. I think it was Andrew Huberman on Joe Rogan said something about if a animal, if a human or animal,
link |
01:00:37.360
I don't know how he would know, the human or animal is stressed.
link |
01:00:42.240
And I'm paraphrasing this horribly, but they're much more easily prone to be, not prone to, but forced into delusional thinking.
link |
01:00:53.840
And so that quote resonated for me because he kept me in this incredibly stressed out, afraid, confused state.
link |
01:01:01.280
And then whatever he's sort of planting in my mind, I'm going to be that much more likely to just kind of go along with it.
link |
01:01:07.600
Well, we'll see how this whole journey ends. Let's actually just step back a little bit and just looking at the employees at the restaurant and so on.
link |
01:01:16.080
Do you have remorse for what happened, especially from the perspective of the employees and the staff?
link |
01:01:21.920
Yeah. I mean, hurting them was sort of the last thing that I would ever have wanted to do.
link |
01:01:27.600
And in part, I mean, there was financial harm, but I don't I don't know whether it's more important or not. But, you know, it was taking a place that was very much like a family to them.
link |
01:01:44.640
And it was as if I destroyed it. And so I think that because we were so much like a family, it was almost as if.
link |
01:01:54.480
Like mom went off the deep end and got together with some cuckoo abusive guy and and sort of abandoned them and they didn't know what was going on and what was happening.
link |
01:02:04.880
And so do you regret lying to them?
link |
01:02:08.160
I regret lying to anybody in all of those circumstances, but I wasn't lying.
link |
01:02:19.360
You know, he made me think that, you know, everything was going to be reversed and OK, and anybody that money was borrowed from, they would get it back, you know, maybe tenfold.
link |
01:02:29.120
And so it was this weird situation of having like one foot in his reality and potentially believing the things he was saying or even over time wanting to believe them more and more because the alternative was so.
link |
01:02:47.280
The alternative was worse. The alternative was like. Was increasingly a bigger and bigger nightmare.
link |
01:02:53.680
So there's this whole situation where you're constantly giving him money, you're constantly borrowing and borrowing money.
link |
01:02:59.280
Well, this idea that it'll be repaid like a hundred X fold, right?
link |
01:03:05.280
Kind of like sort of like lying to somebody because you're planning their surprise party.
link |
01:03:10.080
You think like, well, I'm lying to somebody, but I'm but it's because there's a good reason.
link |
01:03:15.760
Yeah, you know, it's sort of that's not a good example.
link |
01:03:18.160
But but you could have not made it a surprise party and be like, pull him in onto the planning of the party and be honest about.
link |
01:03:28.400
Like everything that's happening, not in a negative way, but like get him in on the fact that, OK, I just need to give money to this guy, but we'll get he is a super rich person of some kind.
link |
01:03:43.600
And he'll repay.
link |
01:03:47.120
I mean, I wish I well.
link |
01:03:49.920
Because you're holding on to this time.
link |
01:03:52.080
That's part of the torture is that you're isolated and unable, unable to tell anybody.
link |
01:03:58.800
But you're not unable or he was telling you, you're not allowed to say anything to anybody.
link |
01:04:03.120
I mean, you're choosing not to say anything, but it's because of the sort of the weight of it, because it's embarrassing to sort of.
link |
01:04:12.720
Is it embarrassing something?
link |
01:04:14.160
I mean, why do you not tell others?
link |
01:04:16.640
You know, what is that?
link |
01:04:18.960
What's what's happening to the mind where you don't tell others?
link |
01:04:23.040
I don't know.
link |
01:04:23.680
You're part of why the story, you know, everything that happened is hard to summarize and talk about in any concise way is that.
link |
01:04:34.400
So much of it happens in this very slow, slow, slow way.
link |
01:04:38.800
And, you know, people always use the whole like frog in boiling water example so that by the time you realize you're fucked, it's too late.
link |
01:04:50.240
And and it seems hard to believe or understand other people because they see where you are or where you ended up and they think, well, how did you let that happen?
link |
01:04:59.360
Well, I don't know what I have willingly destroyed my life and hurt all the people I care about.
link |
01:05:05.520
And, you know, allowed my mother to get hurt and I wouldn't have ever willingly done that.
link |
01:05:11.200
So something else must have happened.
link |
01:05:13.840
And that's that's the part that's difficult to understand.
link |
01:05:17.200
Let me ask you about another hard question.
link |
01:05:19.920
Yeah.
link |
01:05:20.480
Do you deserve most or all of the blame for the failure of the business or are others at fault too?
link |
01:05:29.520
Well, the business didn't fail.
link |
01:05:30.880
It was doing well and so it's closing is like it was destroyed.
link |
01:05:39.520
Who deserves the blame for that?
link |
01:05:41.120
I'm asking from your perspective when you think about it in the privacy in your mind.
link |
01:05:47.840
Are you angry at Anthony or are you angry yourself?
link |
01:05:53.280
Both.
link |
01:05:53.840
I think that in the privacy of my own mind and to everybody listening, it's it's I feel responsible.
link |
01:06:06.400
I feel responsible in the same way that if you kind of did something,
link |
01:06:10.720
if you were driving and you did something stupid and caused an accident in which other people died,
link |
01:06:16.240
you would feel, I think, horrifically responsible and you'd blame yourself because maybe you
link |
01:06:21.760
looked away or checked your phone or something.
link |
01:06:27.440
But you didn't intend to kill those people, of course.
link |
01:06:31.280
So for me, it's like I didn't intend to kill.
link |
01:06:36.320
You know, sometimes I say like my own child, I don't know if that's offensive to some people,
link |
01:06:40.400
but it's like as if I killed my own child.
link |
01:06:43.600
It was it was it was a business, but it was special.
link |
01:06:46.000
So I don't feel guilt.
link |
01:06:52.480
I feel responsibility.
link |
01:06:54.400
And then, you know, I'm angry at him, even though that anger is pointless.
link |
01:07:03.280
OK, because this has come up, let's continue with the hard questions.
link |
01:07:10.080
Are they going to get easier?
link |
01:07:11.120
They're going to get easier.
link |
01:07:11.840
OK.
link |
01:07:13.040
Most of them are easy.
link |
01:07:14.000
This is this is fun.
link |
01:07:14.960
We're having fun.
link |
01:07:16.080
You posted on Instagram the ending.
link |
01:07:21.040
No, I'm going to say Instagram like it's Shakespeare.
link |
01:07:23.600
OK, the ending is disturbingly misleading, but still, I'm very grateful for this coverage.
link |
01:07:29.760
It's talking about the documentary, in quotes, documentary.
link |
01:07:34.400
I'm OK with the criticism and judgment, but would rather it be based on what's true.
link |
01:07:39.520
And then you say a couple more sentences and then you say,
link |
01:07:43.360
and then you say Leon, who has his own Instagram account.
link |
01:07:47.120
Yes.
link |
01:07:47.520
One lucky rescue dog says hello.
link |
01:07:50.720
He loves you all.
link |
01:07:51.840
Even if you call me a, quote, defective, arrogant sociopath, it's all OK.
link |
01:07:58.800
So the hard question, do you think you are in part a sociopath?
link |
01:08:04.880
No.
link |
01:08:05.920
Would you know it if you were?
link |
01:08:07.440
Yes.
link |
01:08:07.760
How does this work?
link |
01:08:08.720
So what have you learned from reading this book?
link |
01:08:10.640
I had all these interesting thoughts, all these sort of questions and thoughts about it,
link |
01:08:14.480
because the book I'm reading now that I'm only about a third of the way through,
link |
01:08:18.560
she talks about some of the things in the brain structure that are particular to sociopaths.
link |
01:08:24.800
And so then it makes you think, well, what if that could be tweaked in some way?
link |
01:08:30.960
Like, could you unsociopath a sociopath?
link |
01:08:33.840
Is it nature or nurture, I suppose is the question.
link |
01:08:36.960
I think it's both.
link |
01:08:37.840
I think it's genetic.
link |
01:08:39.920
And then it's like genes that are turned on by things like a particularly violent childhood
link |
01:08:48.640
or some sort of dysfunction.
link |
01:08:50.160
So I think somebody could have the gene, it's not turned on,
link |
01:08:53.520
and then the sociopaths have the gene and it's turned on.
link |
01:09:00.080
So sociopath means that you're not able to be empathetic
link |
01:09:05.120
or you're generally not empathetic to the suffering of others or to the emotions of others?
link |
01:09:10.160
It's a hollowness.
link |
01:09:11.680
So it's like you don't have just completely lacking the capacity.
link |
01:09:18.160
I mean, it's tragic because they wouldn't understand or feel love, but it's like a hollowness.
link |
01:09:26.160
And then something also about the wiring.
link |
01:09:30.480
And I think also because of that hollowness, they're able to incredibly quickly look at others
link |
01:09:38.080
and identify their insecurities and buttons and weak spots.
link |
01:09:44.720
So they're incredibly good at manipulation.
link |
01:09:47.760
Is that because they're just able to objectively observe the situation?
link |
01:09:52.880
Probably in part, but there was some other explanation
link |
01:09:55.840
related to the brain structure that I read somewhere that made sense to me.
link |
01:09:59.040
And I won't remember it because I don't usually...
link |
01:10:02.240
You're not Andrew Huberman who seems to reference perfectly every single line
link |
01:10:07.760
from every book or paper he's ever read?
link |
01:10:10.080
Yes.
link |
01:10:10.400
Right. I don't remember things in that way.
link |
01:10:12.160
I try to usually remember the conclusions.
link |
01:10:14.960
So I might remember that he might give a whole long explanation about why it's good to do this
link |
01:10:21.120
or to take this supplement.
link |
01:10:23.040
That's a bad habit I have.
link |
01:10:24.240
Sometimes I'll order supplements and then by the time they arrive, I've forgotten why.
link |
01:10:27.760
Why?
link |
01:10:28.320
I forgot why.
link |
01:10:29.040
Just take them all.
link |
01:10:29.680
I'm supposed to take them all.
link |
01:10:30.240
Harris Thompson, but the healthy version.
link |
01:10:32.000
I hope we get to talk about food because I feel like you have a brain that should be
link |
01:10:37.520
fed only the best food.
link |
01:10:39.760
Oh, wow.
link |
01:10:40.480
So we can talk about that later.
link |
01:10:41.760
I have a lot of philosophies about that, but certainly fluff is not in the best.
link |
01:10:47.040
What is best?
link |
01:10:47.600
We'll definitely talk about food throughout.
link |
01:10:50.560
What is best?
link |
01:10:54.560
That makes me think of Conan.
link |
01:10:55.840
And I just talked to Oliver Stone, who I didn't realize wrote Conan the Barbarian.
link |
01:11:01.920
Do you know that in my head I pictured Conan O Brien?
link |
01:11:04.800
That's what I was sitting there going, wait, why?
link |
01:11:09.440
I love him.
link |
01:11:09.920
But when you said that, I was like, why did that make you think of Conan O Brien?
link |
01:11:14.000
Yeah.
link |
01:11:14.480
Yeah.
link |
01:11:14.880
I love him so much.
link |
01:11:16.320
Such a brilliant human.
link |
01:11:17.760
Yeah.
link |
01:11:20.640
Sociopathy.
link |
01:11:21.840
Sociopathy.
link |
01:11:23.120
Yeah.
link |
01:11:23.600
So it's stuff about the brain, fine, but how do you know you're not a sociopath?
link |
01:11:29.120
Would you know it?
link |
01:11:30.080
Am I a sociopath?
link |
01:11:31.520
No.
link |
01:11:32.000
How would I know it?
link |
01:11:32.560
How do you know?
link |
01:11:34.320
Well, having listened to a lot.
link |
01:11:36.400
Well, wouldn't I be able to be good at faking it?
link |
01:11:38.640
Isn't that what?
link |
01:11:39.440
Well, because you would be out there.
link |
01:11:40.640
There's a mask on the cover of this book with lipstick.
link |
01:11:43.440
I don't think you would be doing the work that you're doing.
link |
01:11:45.280
I don't wear lipstick.
link |
01:11:45.840
You'd probably be running for office or a trader on Wall Street.
link |
01:11:49.520
Or one of the things about sociopaths is they kind of need like the stimulation of risk and danger.
link |
01:11:59.120
Well, a need.
link |
01:12:03.280
Okay, sure.
link |
01:12:04.320
More than average.
link |
01:12:05.440
I like, hmm, okay.
link |
01:12:07.840
But Wall Street, there's a fakeness, like I don't like the fakeness of the game of it.
link |
01:12:13.920
Yeah.
link |
01:12:14.420
That's why I left.
link |
01:12:15.600
I didn't, I just, it was a strange environment.
link |
01:12:19.600
Okay.
link |
01:12:20.720
So you're not, you're not a quote defective, arrogant sociopath.
link |
01:12:25.200
What does defective even mean?
link |
01:12:26.720
Well, I think that somebody had just called me that.
link |
01:12:28.880
And I think that, you know, it's easy for people to say like, don't read the comments, but it's hard not to, because then also you'd miss the beautiful ones.
link |
01:12:38.640
Yeah.
link |
01:12:39.140
Or sometimes like you have to go on there to check a private message and you just stuff, it's there, people saying terrible things.
link |
01:12:47.440
So I try to, people say, you know, don't pay attention to the comments, it's hard not to, but I try to.
link |
01:12:56.320
Even with the documentary, you try to still kind of see, to look, to look for the good ones, for the kind ones, for the supportive ones.
link |
01:13:07.440
Well, there were overwhelming kind comments and so that, that helped and felt a lot better, but sometimes, sometimes the, the negative comments are based on, you know, they're based on false information.
link |
01:13:23.840
So if somebody understood, if somebody knew everything that happened and then wanted to judge me or say things like that's somehow, at least that's all right.
link |
01:13:32.680
But people saying these things based on things that are totally false, it's just, it's hard, it's hard to just let that go.
link |
01:13:45.600
But I know that people also say things, you know, for their own personal reasons.
link |
01:13:55.120
I had a fascinating exchange with somebody who direct messaged me and called me trash.
link |
01:14:00.720
You responded.
link |
01:14:02.720
I responded because it was, no, it was amazing.
link |
01:14:06.720
So I would do this for a while, it's sort of like, I might be procrastinating or, but I would scroll through because the private messages were overwhelming and there's still just this massive backlog that I'll never probably get to read.
link |
01:14:22.240
But the one that called you trash as a pickup, as an opener, you were like, this is interesting.
link |
01:14:28.240
I just was in a mood and so I responded and I wish I hadn't deleted it because I sort of deleted a bunch and then I was like, oh, why did I delete that one?
link |
01:14:38.240
Because I was curious what exactly I said to him, but I responded to him in a nice way and then he responded back and then it started this whole back and forth conversation.
link |
01:14:48.240
So he was kind quickly or no?
link |
01:14:52.240
And then also like wanted to get to know me and lives in Pennsylvania and was like, I'll come to you.
link |
01:14:58.240
You realize if we, you know, if somehow this just turned into like, that would be our, how did you meet story?
link |
01:15:04.240
Well, he called me trash online.
link |
01:15:06.240
That's a pretty good.
link |
01:15:08.240
He ended up having such an insightful comment.
link |
01:15:12.240
I just found it interesting and I think at first he said, I never imagined you'd reply, which is, you know, it's like part of the whole thing with social media, although this guy wasn't anonymous.
link |
01:15:22.240
Was not anonymous.
link |
01:15:24.240
No, he had a, I think he had a private account, but it's like his name and his face was there.
link |
01:15:28.240
People forget that you're a human being when they message you.
link |
01:15:30.240
Exactly.
link |
01:15:32.240
Folks, when you message me, I'm a human being.
link |
01:15:34.240
So I told him that that was, you know, like that, that I was hurtful and, and I guess I wanted to understand more why he said it.
link |
01:15:42.240
And it was surprisingly insightful, but he said something about, again, I wish I hadn't deleted it.
link |
01:15:48.240
But he, he was like, I guess I was just angry because like that guy, he said something like, I guess I was just angry because that guy got you and I would have, you know, so it made me think of the whole like sort of.
link |
01:16:08.240
Incel jealousy thing that can be very terrifying if you're female is that like, if you reject a guy, they might turn around and be violent or angry at you.
link |
01:16:22.240
Yeah.
link |
01:16:24.240
And so his.
link |
01:16:26.240
Well, to be fair, there's a dormant anger in probably all of us.
link |
01:16:30.240
I believe there's a capacity for cruelty and anger and destruction all of us and the whole struggle of life is to emphasize the good stuff.
link |
01:16:40.240
Yeah.
link |
01:16:41.240
Yeah.
link |
01:16:42.240
So it's not just an Incel thing.
link |
01:16:44.240
It's true for men and women, both capable of cruelty.
link |
01:16:48.240
That's, that is very true.
link |
01:16:49.240
But this one guy, so then you put on my therapist hat.
link |
01:16:53.240
We started, what did we start with?
link |
01:16:57.240
I already forgot, but the, oh, Leon.
link |
01:17:00.240
He's coming back to sociopath.
link |
01:17:02.240
No, no, just, you know, maybe it's not the best idea to answer the comments that start with your trash.
link |
01:17:11.240
I don't do it all the time.
link |
01:17:12.240
It just, I happened upon that one and I was just in a certain mood.
link |
01:17:15.240
I was just in a certain mood.
link |
01:17:16.240
Well, let's, let's further offline sort of discuss this mood that you're in because it might get you in trouble at some point in your future.
link |
01:17:26.240
Okay.
link |
01:17:30.240
Can we just jump back?
link |
01:17:31.240
Speaking of guys that say as an opening to your trash, how did you and Anthony Stranges meet?
link |
01:17:40.240
Can we jump around and tell some of the details here?
link |
01:17:43.240
Because that, I believe the documentary doesn't cover that that well.
link |
01:17:46.240
It's not clear.
link |
01:17:47.240
There's some Twitter interactions and you've kind of assumed.
link |
01:17:54.240
By the way, I do think you need some social media coaching on this because I think, you know, I have some books you need to read, I think.
link |
01:18:05.240
Some manuals on how to use Twitter properly.
link |
01:18:08.240
But anyway, apparently you kind of thought that this person who turned out to be, what was his name?
link |
01:18:15.240
He called himself Shane Fox, but he turned out to be Anthony Stranges, that he was somehow friends with Al Baldwin because of their friendly interaction on Twitter.
link |
01:18:24.240
And so you started interacting with him.
link |
01:18:26.240
And then there was, how did that escalate quickly to meeting?
link |
01:18:32.240
It escalated slowly.
link |
01:18:34.240
And I think I'm sure it was intentional because had I met him right away, I would have probably thought like, oh, he's not what I thought he was and no thanks.
link |
01:18:46.240
But it was a long time.
link |
01:18:49.240
It was many weeks of back and forth conversation digitally one way or another.
link |
01:18:54.240
So it was, you know, via Twitter and then via direct message and then we both played Words with Friends back then and we would message in Words with Friends and then eventually, you know, we exchanged phone numbers.
link |
01:19:07.240
How does Words with Friends work?
link |
01:19:09.240
What's that?
link |
01:19:10.240
I know that's a popular game.
link |
01:19:12.240
Is that like Scrabble?
link |
01:19:13.240
It's like Scrabble and you're playing other people and then there's like a chat function.
link |
01:19:18.240
Yeah.
link |
01:19:19.240
And you can chat with them.
link |
01:19:20.240
Right.
link |
01:19:21.240
And so you were this intellectual stimulating game and you were what?
link |
01:19:25.240
Like flirting and that kind of stuff.
link |
01:19:28.240
Like witty banter.
link |
01:19:30.240
Yes.
link |
01:19:31.240
AKA flirting.
link |
01:19:33.240
Yes.
link |
01:19:34.240
But all of that lasted a really long time and he would give me like little tiny bits and pieces of information about himself that made him seem kind of mysterious.
link |
01:19:47.240
This is a dark, mysterious man who was a Navy SEAL, strong.
link |
01:19:52.240
Yeah.
link |
01:19:53.240
And he would always imply things versus say them outright.
link |
01:19:56.240
So you're kind of always guessing and filling things in.
link |
01:19:59.240
Clint Eastwood type of character.
link |
01:20:00.240
He's not going to say it outright.
link |
01:20:02.240
He's what?
link |
01:20:03.240
He's a Clint Eastwood type of character.
link |
01:20:04.240
He's not going to say it outright.
link |
01:20:05.240
Right.
link |
01:20:06.240
He's just going to act badass.
link |
01:20:07.240
Yeah.
link |
01:20:08.240
Okay.
link |
01:20:09.240
All right.
link |
01:20:10.240
And plus intellectual because of Words with Friends.
link |
01:20:14.240
Is that still a thing by the way?
link |
01:20:15.240
Words with Friends?
link |
01:20:16.240
I think it still exists.
link |
01:20:17.240
Yeah.
link |
01:20:18.240
But I feel like if I started playing it again, I would get a little addicted.
link |
01:20:24.240
Yeah.
link |
01:20:25.240
Stick to the coffee addiction.
link |
01:20:26.240
One of the interesting things is that I used to think that he like used an app to look up things, but then he would do it in front of me.
link |
01:20:35.240
He was really good at it and he could look at the board and just like come up with a hundred point word that I'd never even heard of.
link |
01:20:47.240
So I think he had a little bit of that something going on in his brain that was like, I don't know, a little rain mannish or something in the way that he was able to recall.
link |
01:20:57.240
I think his recall is incredibly.
link |
01:21:00.240
It's important if you lie a lot.
link |
01:21:03.240
If you lie a lot, yeah.
link |
01:21:04.240
To have good recall.
link |
01:21:05.240
Okay.
link |
01:21:06.240
So when, it's okay.
link |
01:21:08.240
So how did it escalate slowly from Words with Friends to meeting in real life?
link |
01:21:14.240
Like what, you know what?
link |
01:21:16.240
I mean, what, okay.
link |
01:21:17.240
I know it's not a love affair.
link |
01:21:20.240
That said, when did you kind of get hooked by the, oh, I wonder, you know, like fall in love.
link |
01:21:31.240
I think it was just a slow.
link |
01:21:33.240
Yeah.
link |
01:21:34.240
When did you fall in love?
link |
01:21:35.240
It was a slow process and I think he found me at a time when there was sort of a perfect storm of the right conditions for me to fall into whatever I fell into with him because that was heartbroken for the first time in my life.
link |
01:21:53.240
Where was the heartbreak coming from?
link |
01:21:55.240
I had split with my boyfriend of four years.
link |
01:21:59.240
And that broke your heart.
link |
01:22:01.240
Yeah.
link |
01:22:02.240
I mean, it was, I knew it was a relationship that I knew would end even when I got into it in the first place.
link |
01:22:09.240
How did you know?
link |
01:22:10.240
Because he's 15 years younger than me.
link |
01:22:12.240
Surely that can't be the only reason it wouldn't work.
link |
01:22:17.240
I need to also give you a book on love.
link |
01:22:21.240
What's it called?
link |
01:22:23.240
I'm going to write it.
link |
01:22:24.240
I don't know.
link |
01:22:25.240
Okay.
link |
01:22:26.240
That's called a joke.
link |
01:22:27.240
Because there's another book that I didn't bring.
link |
01:22:28.240
Okay.
link |
01:22:29.240
There's no book on Twitter and there's no book on love.
link |
01:22:32.240
Because there's actually a book on love that I really like that I think you might like.
link |
01:22:36.240
What is it?
link |
01:22:37.240
Like love languages?
link |
01:22:38.240
I still have to read that one.
link |
01:22:39.240
No, it's called On Love.
link |
01:22:41.240
I can't wait.
link |
01:22:43.240
I'm going to read the cliff notes.
link |
01:22:45.240
It's short by this guy named Alain de Botton.
link |
01:22:49.240
French name.
link |
01:22:51.240
I don't trust him already.
link |
01:22:53.240
No, it's funny and it's beautiful and shocking that he wrote it when he was very young.
link |
01:22:58.240
And I first heard him on a Krista Tippett podcast.
link |
01:23:02.240
That's how I end up reading a lot of books is like you hear somebody on a podcast.
link |
01:23:08.240
So you were heartbroken.
link |
01:23:11.240
You knew it wasn't going to work.
link |
01:23:12.240
I knew it wasn't going to work.
link |
01:23:13.240
Because of the age difference.
link |
01:23:15.240
That's just because of the age difference also.
link |
01:23:18.240
I just knew that eventually he'd want to move on and probably he'd find somebody younger
link |
01:23:24.240
and or was young enough that he still needed to go have a bunch of other experiences.
link |
01:23:30.240
And, you know, probably wanted a family or whatnot eventually.
link |
01:23:34.240
So he was 21 and I was 34 when we first met.
link |
01:23:42.240
But and but then we ended up living together for four years and it was the most drama free.
link |
01:23:48.240
Like there was no drama.
link |
01:23:50.240
And I had just come off my prior relationship was Matthew Kenny, which was very dark in many ways
link |
01:23:59.240
and full of all kinds of.
link |
01:24:01.240
Yeah.
link |
01:24:02.240
And I just couldn't couldn't handle that.
link |
01:24:04.240
So ask you a personal question.
link |
01:24:06.240
Yes.
link |
01:24:07.240
Between us and between us friends.
link |
01:24:11.240
Is there a part of you that's attracted to the drama and the chaos?
link |
01:24:17.240
Now, looking back.
link |
01:24:21.240
I feel like that happens a lot.
link |
01:24:23.240
And maybe there was at some point, but I don't think so.
link |
01:24:30.240
Because, you know, what made that relationship work with his name was Tobin was that there was no drama.
link |
01:24:42.240
Not at all.
link |
01:24:43.240
And I don't think I could have handled it.
link |
01:24:45.240
And I feel that way now, too, like I just couldn't.
link |
01:24:47.240
I can't like fighting or any kind of like the people being passive aggressive.
link |
01:24:52.240
I can't I can't handle that.
link |
01:24:55.240
So you've had enough storms.
link |
01:24:57.240
Now you want the calm.
link |
01:24:59.240
Yes.
link |
01:25:00.240
Yeah.
link |
01:25:01.240
So you knew it wasn't work.
link |
01:25:03.240
I knew it was going to work forever.
link |
01:25:05.240
Well, that that could be just insecurity and cynicism.
link |
01:25:09.240
But fair enough.
link |
01:25:10.240
And then the heart was broken.
link |
01:25:13.240
Yes, and now the heart was broken and fragile and there to be manipulated in some sense.
link |
01:25:23.240
Yes.
link |
01:25:24.240
And there's another person that I heard that I quoted my book saying that when you're heartbroken, you can't rely on your instincts.
link |
01:25:34.240
Somehow your instincts are compromised when you're heartbroken.
link |
01:25:38.240
And maybe I'm just like looking for excuses.
link |
01:25:41.240
No, no, it's true.
link |
01:25:43.240
But I was heartbroken and then.
link |
01:25:47.240
I like to see people when they're heartbroken because it's like shows how much they really loved somebody.
link |
01:25:55.240
You know?
link |
01:25:57.240
Yeah, it's sad.
link |
01:25:59.240
But like sometimes love doesn't reveal itself as richly when you're in it versus when you lose it.
link |
01:26:07.240
Right.
link |
01:26:08.240
That's probably true.
link |
01:26:09.240
Anyway, so your judgment wasn't good.
link |
01:26:12.240
Great.
link |
01:26:13.240
So now you're so you're lonely and you're super busy running the restaurant.
link |
01:26:18.240
But when you get home, you're lonely or like in between.
link |
01:26:23.240
Yeah.
link |
01:26:24.240
And I was kind of overwhelmed.
link |
01:26:25.240
And I'm sure you were getting a lot of really positive attention from other guys to, well, New York.
link |
01:26:34.240
Yeah.
link |
01:26:35.240
Or too busy.
link |
01:26:36.240
No, because because it was a restaurant, there was constantly you're like constantly meeting people and really interesting people.
link |
01:26:44.240
And New York is full of a lot of interesting people.
link |
01:26:50.240
And you're, you know, attractive.
link |
01:26:53.240
So why are you connected to some mysterious distant man from somewhere else playing over words?
link |
01:27:01.240
Because well, I think now looking back, I think it's because I felt like he understood me.
link |
01:27:07.240
And, you know, what was that feeling from coming from you think like what?
link |
01:27:12.240
Why did you why does one feel that you're understood?
link |
01:27:16.240
One thing that made me extra easy to target is that I had written a lot of very personal blogs and things.
link |
01:27:23.240
In addition to him asking me questions and me probably just being insanely open and answering whatever he asked me, I had also written and posted a bunch of personal blogs.
link |
01:27:33.240
Some of them I've reposted on my new website and then some of them I haven't.
link |
01:27:38.240
But in one of them, I go into detail about my frustrations professionally in growing the business.
link |
01:27:48.240
And having read that and being a very smart person, he would have known kind of precisely what to say to get me to get me drawn in.
link |
01:28:00.240
So I think by waiting so long before we met in person, he'd already he'd already gotten me hooked in a way that was going to then make it possible for me to see him.
link |
01:28:13.240
And even though he doesn't look like I thought he did, I'll make excuses for it. Or I mean, it's a dangerous thing about when people and I'm not saying I fell in love with him in this way.
link |
01:28:25.240
I feel like there's another explanation for the what felt like love.
link |
01:28:30.240
But when people fall in love quickly, there's that danger that because that's what happens first, that the more you learn about them, you'll sort of rationalize away things that might be red flags or things that you don't like.
link |
01:28:45.240
So I think it's safer to fall in love when you get to know somebody not in the context of dating them, like Jim and Pam on The Office. Did you watch The Office?
link |
01:29:04.240
Yeah, of course I watched The Office. British Office is better. Strong words. But yes. So well, yeah, fine. True.
link |
01:29:15.240
It might be a bit romantic.
link |
01:29:16.240
Yeah, I like the romantic. Yeah, it's fine. But just I think the better lesson is, yes, that's one thing to say, but the other is like when you see the red flags, notice them, be a little better about noticing them, even amidst the passion.
link |
01:29:33.240
What if a brilliant woman kind of threw herself in your path? Because talking on a podcast is a little bit like having a blog where you overshare because people learn everything about you, what you like, what you don't like, what your wants and dreams.
link |
01:29:50.240
So some woman could pretend to throw herself in your path seemingly accidentally, and then you meet.
link |
01:29:59.240
She has a Russian accent and probably works for FSB.
link |
01:30:03.240
No, but whatever. She is who she is, and then she sort of slides into the conversation like a quote from The Idiot. And you're like, boom.
link |
01:30:17.240
But she's not who she, that's all a pretend. And so you very quickly could fall in love with her, and she's going to turn out to enjoy the game of destroying your life.
link |
01:30:31.240
Yep. That or it's the love of my life.
link |
01:30:36.240
It could be, but not if she did all those things intentionally.
link |
01:30:39.240
But you don't really know. But you have to then pay attention to, that's the dark aspect here. You mentioned blog.
link |
01:30:47.240
I love when people have stuff about themselves online because you get to really learn. I mean, I'm a fan of podcasts. I'm a fan of people.
link |
01:30:55.240
I love learning about them, the personal stuff and so on, hopefully for good reasons.
link |
01:31:01.240
So the people you connect with, the good ones are the ones that are going to be very sort of empathetic. And the bad ones are the ones that are going to be fake empathetic.
link |
01:31:12.240
Like they're going to learn everything about you and use you to manipulate you as opposed to learn everything about you to fall deeper in love with you as a friend or as a romantic partner.
link |
01:31:23.240
Or like genuine curiosity.
link |
01:31:25.240
Yeah, genuine curiosity. Like there's something you're drawing. Like imagine your dog, Leon, had a blog after. Oh yeah, he does now. Yeah, that's true.
link |
01:31:34.240
He kind of does.
link |
01:31:35.240
Yeah. When you met him, right? Then you'd be like, what is this? What is there that's pulling me towards this creature, this entity? What is there?
link |
01:31:47.240
And it'd be fascinating to learn more and then you fall in love with the details, not just with some kind of ethereal thing.
link |
01:31:54.240
Yeah, you don't know. You have to pay attention to the red flags.
link |
01:31:57.240
Yeah. I think one of them actually is somebody who doesn't have that kind of – I mean, plenty of people are private and they don't put stuff out about themselves online for all kinds of very valid reasons.
link |
01:32:08.240
But somebody who does share a lot about themselves personally is – maybe there's examples, but it's probably not a sociopath if they're sharing all kinds of –
link |
01:32:20.240
Sure, sure. But I mean, on the other side, when you meet people, yeah, I still like the falling in love. Because the red flags, whether you see them early or later, it doesn't matter. I'd rather see the red flags right away.
link |
01:32:34.240
I go in hard, intensely, like – to clarify, by going hard, I mean like, you know, no small talk. Just get to know a person. Get to know quickly. Get to know the person. Challenge.
link |
01:32:51.240
Travel with them.
link |
01:32:52.240
Travel with them is really powerful. Road trip from hell or not, go on a road trip and find out if it's a road trip from hell. Yeah.
link |
01:33:00.240
But you might – so there was somebody I was –
link |
01:33:02.240
This is also a male perspective.
link |
01:33:03.240
Destructive relationship with where we had already fallen in love and then went for the first trip in a situation where we had to borrow – I guess he was still sharing his car with his ex wife, so we had to go to the garage to pick up the car to go on this little trip.
link |
01:33:22.240
So you literally baggage the ex.
link |
01:33:25.240
Yeah.
link |
01:33:26.240
That's – wow.
link |
01:33:28.240
So – but something happened where the garage attendant was like, wanted more identification and it was a pain in the ass.
link |
01:33:37.240
Anyway, this guy was so unbelievably rude to the garage attendant, like just nasty and I was completely shocked and disturbed and we got in the car for this long car ride and I was like not saying anything and really shocked and then he noticed that and was very concerned and I explained, you know, like I just – I never – I would never treat somebody that way.
link |
01:34:06.240
And then he pretended to get incredibly upset and to feel horrible and remorseful about it and it was like all we talked about for the next few hours and then I kind of thought like, well, okay, you know, I can get over that and then the relationship continued and it was a dark and destructive one.
link |
01:34:25.240
Whereas, you know, had I seen him behave that way before we were in a relationship, I would have known to back away.
link |
01:34:36.240
Okay. But the lesson – you could still walk away. You could still walk away.
link |
01:34:42.240
No, you can't – well, I could have walked away at any point with – I call him Mr. Fox because it sort of depersonalizes him. But I could have walked away from him at any point in time, but that's the whole – that's kind of the whole point of what they do and the whole reason why people don't understand it.
link |
01:35:03.240
I mean, it's like being in a cult of one. So the people who've been in cults and gotten out, we understand each other very well because the same psychology was used, the same psychological tactics were used on us.
link |
01:35:22.240
And then we experienced the same thing on the other side of it, which is it's hard for us to understand and it's hard for other people to understand and everybody's saying that would never happen to me or they're saying, I don't get it because you're smart, how could you let that happen?
link |
01:35:34.240
Why didn't you leave? Why didn't you walk away? And on the other side of it, we don't have the answers or it takes a really long time of self reflection and reading and investigation to try and figure out how it is that it happened and why didn't we walk away.
link |
01:35:50.240
No, I mean it's definitely hard at every level and I just think that even for more subtle, sort of not outrageously toxic relationships, but like normal toxic – not normal, like a little bit toxic relationships.
link |
01:36:08.240
There are some people that kind of thrive on conflict.
link |
01:36:11.240
But you should still just be self aware like I think you've talked about, give yourself time to think about the red flags and like I pride myself on being able to walk away.
link |
01:36:23.240
You have to think like is this the kind of thing I can live with in friendship and business partners and because the little things that bother you turn out to be big things down the line.
link |
01:36:41.240
Yeah, so it could be less romantic but I feel like getting to know somebody slowly over time is –
link |
01:36:50.240
Yeah, it's the smarter thing.
link |
01:36:51.240
It's safer.
link |
01:36:52.240
I like it though.
link |
01:36:54.240
But that's again my Russian slash Ukrainian male perspective.
link |
01:37:01.240
Anyway, so, Meeting Mr. Fox.
link |
01:37:08.240
Anthony.
link |
01:37:09.240
That's a chapter title in my book, Meeting Mr. Fox.
link |
01:37:12.240
Meeting Mr. Fox.
link |
01:37:13.240
So you're working on a book about this.
link |
01:37:17.240
I'm almost done.
link |
01:37:18.240
It's taken a really long time.
link |
01:37:20.240
Can you define almost done?
link |
01:37:23.240
Because I've said that it's like when people say like they're leaving, like I'm almost in the car.
link |
01:37:32.240
Right.
link |
01:37:33.240
And they actually –
link |
01:37:34.240
But they're not really.
link |
01:37:35.240
They're not really.
link |
01:37:36.240
They haven't even started the showering yet or something.
link |
01:37:38.240
Yeah, I think I probably need some like therapist to work with me on this.
link |
01:37:44.240
Are you usually late to things?
link |
01:37:46.240
No.
link |
01:37:47.240
Okay.
link |
01:37:48.240
I'm usually – oh, I sent you a text message because I was early when I got here.
link |
01:37:53.240
Yeah.
link |
01:37:54.240
And I said that I'm – because of – I think I said my crippling fear of being late.
link |
01:38:03.240
I'm like always early.
link |
01:38:06.240
So I'm loitering outside like a weirdo but glad to come in if it's not too early.
link |
01:38:12.240
The crippling fear of being late makes me chronically early and today is no exception.
link |
01:38:17.240
Yeah, it's interesting.
link |
01:38:18.240
So I got here before I rang the bell.
link |
01:38:21.240
I was outside for a little while like just killing time going I'm way too early.
link |
01:38:26.240
But it's really hot out.
link |
01:38:28.240
Oh, that's true.
link |
01:38:30.240
Yeah.
link |
01:38:31.240
I always air – like I was very early to the airport and then I had all this time to kill.
link |
01:38:35.240
But that's fine with me because that's actually time I appreciate because I can write things or –
link |
01:38:43.240
I worked on my book draft on the airplane, mostly editing, which it needs a lot because it's really long.
link |
01:38:51.240
It's in word count.
link |
01:38:52.240
So all the things are already completed and you're just editing down or just things aren't written?
link |
01:38:56.240
No, I wish.
link |
01:38:57.240
It's in five parts and I've written one through four.
link |
01:39:01.240
And part five is like the chapters are all there but some of them are messy.
link |
01:39:06.240
Some of them are just like a few paragraphs.
link |
01:39:09.240
Some of them are just notes.
link |
01:39:11.240
Some of them are done.
link |
01:39:13.240
So I am kind of – it's like five parts and part five is not quite finished.
link |
01:39:20.240
But I've been editing along the way.
link |
01:39:24.240
So this is going to come out in 2023, I think you mentioned.
link |
01:39:27.240
So it won't come out for a bit or we'll figure it out.
link |
01:39:32.240
What have you learned about yourself from putting some of these things down on paper?
link |
01:39:37.240
What's like the darkest thing you've realized about yourself from writing?
link |
01:39:42.240
The darkest – well, one of the things that was fascinating is reading through all of our –
link |
01:39:50.240
the correspondence between him and me that I was able to find because he deleted all our emails but he didn't –
link |
01:39:55.240
I think he thought he deleted all of our G chats but he didn't.
link |
01:39:58.240
Oh, so he had access to your email.
link |
01:40:01.240
Yes.
link |
01:40:02.240
He deleted it on that side too.
link |
01:40:03.240
And he deleted – yeah, he had access to my email most of the time.
link |
01:40:07.240
And then at the end was also emailing people as me which was incredibly mortifying to come home
link |
01:40:14.240
and then get back into my old email and find that.
link |
01:40:17.240
And I think he was also texting people as me and those I'll never know unless somebody brings it to my attention
link |
01:40:23.240
because after a certain date in 2015, he had my phone and he had exclusive access to my phone and email.
link |
01:40:30.240
So I wasn't looking at it until I got out – until after we were arrested and I was out on bail on my sisters
link |
01:40:40.240
and it took me a long time to get back into my Gmail because I had to verify who I am and I never got my phone back.
link |
01:40:47.240
So I don't know what he texted to other people as me after that time.
link |
01:40:51.240
But anyway, I was able to recover a lot of our G chats which we used that – I don't know why people don't use it anymore
link |
01:41:04.240
but it used to be a thing.
link |
01:41:05.240
Yeah.
link |
01:41:06.240
It was like if you work with people and you use Gmail, it's a really easy way to just message back and forth.
link |
01:41:10.240
It's a chat client within Google but I think Google shut it down already or no?
link |
01:41:14.240
I think it's still there.
link |
01:41:16.240
Okay.
link |
01:41:17.240
And nobody – I used to talk to people on there and nobody talked to me anymore.
link |
01:41:21.240
And so I'd rather –
link |
01:41:23.240
I would talk to you.
link |
01:41:24.240
Thank you.
link |
01:41:25.240
I just – I don't – yeah.
link |
01:41:28.240
People don't love Google social products for some reason.
link |
01:41:32.240
The social network they tried several times, Google Plus, it just dies out.
link |
01:41:37.240
Something about it – it's like when Microsoft tries to do stuff, it just doesn't feel right.
link |
01:41:42.240
Anyway, it is very lonely in that Google chat window.
link |
01:41:46.240
It makes total sense though.
link |
01:41:47.240
Anyway, so that was still there so you're reading through them.
link |
01:41:50.240
So finding – being able to go back and read.
link |
01:41:53.240
And then I kept finding like more layers of stuff including a journal that I didn't find the DA, the prosecutor found.
link |
01:42:03.240
Written by?
link |
01:42:04.240
Me.
link |
01:42:05.240
My journal that I thought he'd thrown away.
link |
01:42:07.240
I didn't know it existed.
link |
01:42:08.240
So somehow he still had it and they found my journal which was for the year 2014 and the very beginning of 2015.
link |
01:42:21.240
This is after you got – this is in the middle of it.
link |
01:42:24.240
It was in the middle of it, yeah.
link |
01:42:25.240
So reading that was fascinating.
link |
01:42:29.240
Yeah, what's some interesting things there?
link |
01:42:32.240
Was it – was your mind completely detached?
link |
01:42:37.240
It was weird because no.
link |
01:42:41.240
Were you concerned?
link |
01:42:42.240
Were you in love?
link |
01:42:43.240
Were you afraid?
link |
01:42:44.240
I was not in love.
link |
01:42:45.240
I was afraid.
link |
01:42:46.240
I definitely write repeatedly in there that I'm afraid of him.
link |
01:42:50.240
I also write repeatedly things like I don't know what's going on, like please let this be over, please let this be over, please let this be over.
link |
01:42:58.240
And then in a sort of – if I try to remove myself and look at it as if I was a different person,
link |
01:43:04.240
it's sort of heartbreaking because I was trying so hard to be positive and that didn't work out.
link |
01:43:13.240
I was trying to be positive.
link |
01:43:15.240
So when I – it turned up later in the process and my lawyer at the time called or something and said,
link |
01:43:27.240
you know, the DA has your – or the prosecutor, they have your journal.
link |
01:43:34.240
I haven't read it yet, but as soon as I get a PDF copy, I'll send it to you.
link |
01:43:38.240
So that was sort of weird to think that everybody's reading my journal, which, you know,
link |
01:43:42.240
you don't write it thinking people are going to read – unless you're like a historical person
link |
01:43:45.240
and then later on you think people are going to print from it.
link |
01:43:49.240
But, you know, nobody's writing a journal thinking that.
link |
01:43:52.240
I can just imagine like a 14 year old thinking they're going to be a historical person, right?
link |
01:43:57.240
Right.
link |
01:43:58.240
Well, no, I mean like, you know, presidents who keep journals and then they're later on.
link |
01:44:01.240
Sure, sure, sure.
link |
01:44:03.240
So you write it.
link |
01:44:04.240
You don't think anybody's going to read it.
link |
01:44:06.240
And so that was a weird feeling.
link |
01:44:07.240
And then also just not knowing – not remembering what I wrote.
link |
01:44:14.240
So I think it was the next day I got – she sent me a PDF copy of it and I read it really quickly
link |
01:44:20.240
because I could read my own – it was a PDF so it was like Xeroxes of the pages.
link |
01:44:24.240
So it was in my own handwriting, which I could read really fast because even though it's messy,
link |
01:44:28.240
I wrote it so I could read it really fast.
link |
01:44:30.240
And I read the whole thing and was crying because I thought, okay, finally, like,
link |
01:44:36.240
surely nobody could read this and think that I intended to commit crimes.
link |
01:44:40.240
And so I thought – like I thought that journal was just going to fully exonerate me
link |
01:44:45.240
and they would like, you know, if not drop the charges, like it would just be like,
link |
01:44:50.240
okay, well, you know, some bad things happened.
link |
01:44:53.240
You're responsible.
link |
01:44:54.240
You know, here's probation.
link |
01:44:57.240
But it didn't seem to make any difference, which was strange.
link |
01:45:01.240
But anyway, so the journal and then also finding all of the correspondence between –
link |
01:45:08.240
not all of the correspondence between him and me,
link |
01:45:10.240
but the GCHAT correspondence between him and me, to me, so, you know, all of that in its –
link |
01:45:17.240
like I wish that everything could have been kind of put out there as evidence.
link |
01:45:23.240
Like the more they turned up, the better for me because I wanted them to see everything.
link |
01:45:28.240
And there are just so many examples in the correspondence between him and me where he's,
link |
01:45:32.240
you know, threatening me and, you know, lying to me and telling me that if I don't do what he says,
link |
01:45:39.240
my whole life will be destroyed and I'll lose everything I ever cared about, all kinds of things like that.
link |
01:45:43.240
But what I still don't quite understand and what one of my lawyers said why all of that wasn't as useful
link |
01:45:52.240
as I thought it might be is because so much of that correspondence, I'm like sarcastically, angrily.
link |
01:46:01.240
I'm yelling at him.
link |
01:46:02.240
I'm mad at him.
link |
01:46:03.240
I'm like, fuck you.
link |
01:46:04.240
I'm making fun of him.
link |
01:46:05.240
I call him names.
link |
01:46:07.240
I'll say to him, like, you're lying.
link |
01:46:09.240
Why should I believe you?
link |
01:46:10.240
You told me you'd pay me back before, but you didn't.
link |
01:46:13.240
So it seems like it doesn't make sense.
link |
01:46:18.240
Like how is it that if I say to him, you're lying, you're a liar, that I still –
link |
01:46:25.240
so then what would happen is I'm reading that correspondence and then it stops for a while,
link |
01:46:30.240
maybe because I was with him in person.
link |
01:46:33.240
And then I'll look at my timeline of things and I'll see, oh, I sent him a wire for $80,000.
link |
01:46:39.240
Yeah.
link |
01:46:40.240
How do you explain your ability to still joke around and also to be mean to him in a joking way?
link |
01:46:51.240
Couples can do that.
link |
01:46:55.240
There's cruel ways of doing that and then there's humorous ways, just like you're talking shit, whatever.
link |
01:47:01.240
You were able to do that still and yet you're sending over the money and are afraid.
link |
01:47:08.240
Like how can you be those two things?
link |
01:47:12.240
Like as opposed to completely shutting down.
link |
01:47:15.240
Well, I don't know.
link |
01:47:17.240
I mean, these are all interesting questions that I have as well.
link |
01:47:19.240
Like how is it that I was functional and yet also doing these things.
link |
01:47:25.240
And so the year that we were gone is like a different level because I no longer was running the business.
link |
01:47:32.240
But the thing about dissociation is that you're functioning but like your feelings and your thinking are detached in some way
link |
01:47:41.240
so that like you're functioning and people wouldn't look at you and go, oh, that person is dissociating because you're functioning.
link |
01:47:47.240
You seem normal but somehow in your head you're like disconnecting your feelings and your thinking.
link |
01:47:54.240
So you're still able to be like the game of social interaction and being witty and so on, all that kind of stuff.
link |
01:48:02.240
For me, I think it's like a coping mechanism too because I haven't been to a funeral in a long time
link |
01:48:08.240
but if I went, I'd probably like find absurd thing or I'll tend to like either make jokes or want to make jokes at really inappropriate times,
link |
01:48:19.240
even in tragic times because it's almost like a defense mechanism, I think.
link |
01:48:25.240
Like you said, you told me you like dark humor.
link |
01:48:27.240
Yeah.
link |
01:48:30.240
My next door neighbor is Michael Malice.
link |
01:48:32.240
He's an anarchist.
link |
01:48:34.240
I have one of his books.
link |
01:48:36.240
The Hero?
link |
01:48:37.240
Dear Reader.
link |
01:48:38.240
Dear Reader, yeah.
link |
01:48:39.240
And he loves, he embodies dark humor, trolling and dark humor and is underneath the sweetest human being.
link |
01:48:46.240
He's writing a book now, The White Pill, that's really focused on Stalin and the Holodomor.
link |
01:48:54.240
There's basically atrocities throughout the 20th century and I think he needs the dark humor to release the valve.
link |
01:49:02.240
I think there's something about incredibly good, the most offensive comedians tend to have the kindest hearts, I think.
link |
01:49:12.240
This is my theory.
link |
01:49:13.240
People like Ricky Gervais, who goes out and insults people and makes jokes that people find horribly offensive and crude
link |
01:49:23.240
and yet is a huge animal rights guy and appears to be an incredibly sweet and kind person and sensitive.
link |
01:49:34.240
And Howard Stern, people who are like incredibly crude very often are, in my experience, to the extent that I've gotten either to know people personally,
link |
01:49:47.240
observe them, learn about them in other ways, but almost like the more crude and offensive, the comedian or the person, they tend to have the kindest.
link |
01:49:59.240
Yeah, I don't know if it's a universal rule, but yeah, I see what you mean.
link |
01:50:02.240
And you lost me with Howard Stern.
link |
01:50:04.240
He seems like not a good person.
link |
01:50:06.240
Oh no, he's such a good person.
link |
01:50:07.240
Underneath it, in short.
link |
01:50:08.240
Oh yeah, such a good person.
link |
01:50:09.240
He's just said so much, so I'm friends with Rogan, he said so many ignorant things about Rogan, but I suppose that's...
link |
01:50:16.240
So I haven't heard, I haven't listened to Howard Stern in a long time.
link |
01:50:20.240
And I also think that people who say bad things about Rogan don't listen to his podcast.
link |
01:50:26.240
Right.
link |
01:50:27.240
Because I've listened to his podcast and people think that, I think people would assume that I don't like him because, or the whole like vegan thing and he's all about meat and they would think that I would think, no.
link |
01:50:42.240
Because I've listened to enough of his podcast, I've heard the one where he talked about why he hunts, whereas if I only knew him via his Instagram, I might think he's an asshole.
link |
01:50:57.240
But having listened to all of his, not all of, I don't listen to all of them, there's a ton of them, but having listened to a lot of his podcasts, enough to know that he's an extremely kind person with all the best intentions.
link |
01:51:12.240
And I think that a lot of that judgment comes from people who are just seeing little clips.
link |
01:51:17.240
It's probably easy to take little clips from him that sound... Yeah, the lesson there is just not make judgments on people without getting to know them, especially, and you have no excuse when the content is out there, like, don't be lazy.
link |
01:51:28.240
Yeah, I try. That's, yeah, I'm very careful when, you know, a lot of these cases, you know, like the, the Depp herd thing or, oh, Johnny Depp and Elizabeth Holmes and anything like controversial.
link |
01:51:45.240
And sometimes that makes me, I can't think of an example, but very often, like when somebody criticizes something or something becomes controversial, that's what gets me to want to understand it better.
link |
01:51:57.240
So then I'll go like read the book that everybody's mad about.
link |
01:52:00.240
Yeah, it's hard to know what's true though.
link |
01:52:02.240
I tried to have humility and always assume I don't really know the full story and keep pulling at the string, keep learning more and more. But even then, like, the more you learn, the more you realize the things are complex.
link |
01:52:15.240
What do you think about as a small tangent, Johnny Depp, Amber Heard, trials going on, it's a quick pause, it's going to resume next week.
link |
01:52:26.240
So again, this is one of those situations where, you know, I have very limited information because I'm also not sitting there watching the trial.
link |
01:52:33.240
Have you watched any of it?
link |
01:52:34.240
Little bits of it. And it's like, I know that if I go there, then I'm going to want to watch it all.
link |
01:52:40.240
Yeah, it's good.
link |
01:52:41.240
I know.
link |
01:52:42.240
It's raw human relationships that is most toxic and it's most deep also because there's you can tell there's love probably still there's love, which is the interesting thing. They probably still love each other even though they hate each other.
link |
01:52:57.240
And like there's a lot of lying going on.
link |
01:53:00.240
It looks like it's Amber Heard lying to my foolish eyes. It seems like she's lying nonstop. But, you know, I want to know the full story and we'll never get to know it.
link |
01:53:12.240
But you see this raw, like postmortem on a relationship on a love affair that was clearly passionate.
link |
01:53:19.240
There was clearly something deep of a connection there. And it just that's the sad thing about love.
link |
01:53:25.240
It can destroy you as much as it can uplift you.
link |
01:53:28.240
It can be also used to destroy people.
link |
01:53:31.240
Yeah, to manipulate and all that kind of stuff. Yeah.
link |
01:53:33.240
Right. So people who feel strongly are, I think, particularly vulnerable.
link |
01:53:41.240
Yeah, it's it's hard to talk about because I've dipped into like a podcast or something where other people are discussing bad vegan and like a pop culture way and they're analyzing it. And it's so annoying to listen to.
link |
01:53:58.240
So I'm like, oh, my God, that's totally wrong. That's totally wrong. Well, if they only knew this, well, I have no that's wrong.
link |
01:54:03.240
So, you know, listening to other people analyzing my situation or my psychology when they don't have all the information has been really frustrating.
link |
01:54:13.240
There's a difference.
link |
01:54:15.240
I did.
link |
01:54:16.240
There's a difference because the world doesn't know much about you except for the Netflix documentary.
link |
01:54:21.240
Right.
link |
01:54:22.240
There's a lot more information about both Johnny Depp and Amber Heard and The Trial is revealing the real people. This one is so interesting.
link |
01:54:29.240
But I haven't watched it all.
link |
01:54:30.240
OK, but there's a difference between a documentary and like a raw human being sitting there.
link |
01:54:36.240
Exactly. The real trial.
link |
01:54:37.240
You can see the body language.
link |
01:54:39.240
It's so interesting that I think you could tell the difference between a person who is full of shit and not.
link |
01:54:47.240
No.
link |
01:54:48.240
I'm not sure.
link |
01:54:50.240
It's another. I'm going to. I can't remember.
link |
01:54:52.240
And sorry. I keep interrupting you. But on top of this, there are actors, too, which is very annoying.
link |
01:54:58.240
Right. Exactly.
link |
01:55:00.240
Because like I don't know if they're putting it be sure as hell looks like Amber Heard is putting on like a soap opera act.
link |
01:55:06.240
Soap opera meaning like really bad acting and lies.
link |
01:55:10.240
But I would say all of these things are really hard.
link |
01:55:14.240
People would say about me, I don't look like a victim.
link |
01:55:17.240
And I don't mind you interrupting me because Andrew Huberman said that that means you're interested in the conversation.
link |
01:55:23.240
He said it was a good thing.
link |
01:55:25.240
So you don't have to apologize for interrupting me.
link |
01:55:29.240
It keeps coming up, but I keep thinking of these.
link |
01:55:32.240
That's one of the things that Andrew told me that I'm like, are you sure?
link |
01:55:36.240
Because it just does seem like an asshole thing to do.
link |
01:55:39.240
I guess it depends on the context.
link |
01:55:41.240
If we're in a business meeting and somebody talks over you to kind of make their point heard.
link |
01:55:46.240
But if it's a one on one situation, then it's not.
link |
01:55:48.240
I could argue that forever.
link |
01:55:50.240
But so a long time ago, I listened to there was a audio call, an audio that was released of a taped argument between Johnny Depp and Amber Heard.
link |
01:56:01.240
And I don't remember why, like which one of them had taped it and if they knew it was being taped.
link |
01:56:06.240
But it was like an hour and a half.
link |
01:56:07.240
And I listened to it almost like you would listen to a podcast where I was doing other things, like cleaning my apartment.
link |
01:56:12.240
And I was fascinated listening to it to a fight.
link |
01:56:14.240
So I was and it's interesting, too, because it was just the audio, not so you're not looking at their body language, which can be completely misleading.
link |
01:56:23.240
And there was another podcast where they talked about how judges make worse decisions on whether or not somebody deserves parole or to be released on bail when they see the person in person versus if they're just looking at the information on paper.
link |
01:56:39.240
So I think body language and those kinds of things can be can actually be misleading.
link |
01:56:45.240
Or we think that like by looking somebody in the eye will know if they're lying or not, but the skilled liars are able to bypass that or they because I'm jumping all over the place.
link |
01:56:57.240
But one of the things about sociopaths is they're not going to have the same tell.
link |
01:57:01.240
So like if I was lying, somebody would know because I'm like stressed out, mortified, I'm probably doing all the things that we do when we lie because it's stressful for me, whereas they don't have those things.
link |
01:57:13.240
So I think that, you know, they could, for example, I think that they could pass a lie detector test.
link |
01:57:19.240
They also don't have like a startle response.
link |
01:57:22.240
So the activity in their brain, like if you and I watch something graphic and tragic on TV or watch something happen, like things would happen in our brains that don't happen in the brains of sociopaths.
link |
01:57:34.240
So they don't react to things in the same way that that we do.
link |
01:57:38.240
Again, you keep assuming I'm not associated.
link |
01:57:40.240
I didn't say I'm not associated, Beth.
link |
01:57:42.240
This assumption you keep making is very interesting.
link |
01:57:44.240
Then why did I murder all those people?
link |
01:57:46.240
Let's get back to the what were we talking about?
link |
01:57:49.240
Johnny Depp and Amber Heard.
link |
01:57:50.240
So the audio that I heard made me, without knowing anything else, made me very inclined to be Team Johnny Depp.
link |
01:58:00.240
Yeah.
link |
01:58:01.240
Based on that, just based on that audio.
link |
01:58:03.240
Yeah.
link |
01:58:04.240
Well, that's how the people are feeling about this whole interaction.
link |
01:58:07.240
By the way, I do think it's a very healthy thing to do in a relationship is to record each other for months at a time.
link |
01:58:12.240
Every time you fight, that just seems like a very, that's sarcasm.
link |
01:58:17.240
I don't understand how that, because they both recorded each other.
link |
01:58:20.240
I suppose you could look back at all human relations and be like, this was ridiculous.
link |
01:58:27.240
What was I doing?
link |
01:58:28.240
But when you're in it, you don't.
link |
01:58:31.240
Right.
link |
01:58:32.240
I wondered that too.
link |
01:58:33.240
Like who made the recording and why?
link |
01:58:35.240
And did they both know about it, that it was being recorded?
link |
01:58:41.240
Sometimes they did.
link |
01:58:42.240
Sometimes they didn't.
link |
01:58:43.240
All I know is just the poetry of Johnny Depp's speaking and sort of movement about the whole thing.
link |
01:58:54.240
It's interesting.
link |
01:58:55.240
It makes you wonder what's real.
link |
01:58:57.240
Maybe this is whole, maybe they're both in love and this is like a troll that they played on the world.
link |
01:59:04.240
I don't know.
link |
01:59:05.240
It makes me wonder what's real at all.
link |
01:59:11.240
Because you have to remember they're actors too.
link |
01:59:14.240
Yeah, I don't think he would have filed a lawsuit.
link |
01:59:17.240
No, I mean, I'm joking.
link |
01:59:19.240
No, I know.
link |
01:59:20.240
But no, I mean, my point is if somebody was trying to make the argument that like he's the abuser and that he's lying and he's full of shit,
link |
01:59:31.240
it sort of doesn't make sense that he would have filed a lawsuit unless he's trying to have this all come out in the open because he believes he's in the right.
link |
01:59:43.240
You know, again, I have no idea.
link |
01:59:45.240
I agree with you.
link |
01:59:46.240
As a fan of love and human nature, I appreciate the fact that they went through this.
link |
01:59:51.240
I know it's probably extremely painful.
link |
01:59:53.240
But it's fascinating to watch human relationships be presented in such a wrong way and it made me realize how rare it is to get a glimpse like that.
link |
02:00:04.240
Yeah, and I think one of the reasons I like that book Confessions of a Sociopath also is it's, you know, female who's writing it.
link |
02:00:12.240
And I think statistically men are more likely to be sociopaths, maybe not.
link |
02:00:18.240
I mean, these are all things where a lot of times there exist statistics that would be inherently hard to get.
link |
02:00:28.240
So who knows?
link |
02:00:30.240
But I think that people tend to think of sociopaths more as men and then which probably gives female sociopaths the advantage in that people are less likely to like the Elizabeth Holmes,
link |
02:00:46.240
like people who are really manipulative and really good at it.
link |
02:00:51.240
And part of how they're able to succeed is that people don't understand their motives or people will assume that people behave rationally,
link |
02:01:00.240
even if rationally means it's like Anthony Stranges.
link |
02:01:05.240
You know, it would have made more sense if he had gotten all this money out of me and, you know,
link |
02:01:10.240
put it in an overseas account and then ditched me and got on a plane to Mexico, like everybody would understand that more.
link |
02:01:17.240
Whereas, you know, the way things happened and he dragged me around the country and like, what were we doing in Tennessee?
link |
02:01:25.240
And then why didn't like nothing really makes any sense.
link |
02:01:30.240
But and also all of the things that he did to me and had me do, it was as if all of those things together only make sense if his primary goal was to maximally destroy me
link |
02:01:46.240
and also make it like have me burn all my bridges and make it so I'll never recover.
link |
02:01:51.240
And when you read a book like that, you understand that that's that's what he wanted.
link |
02:01:56.240
Like, that's his life. It's like a game.
link |
02:02:00.240
Like, what do you think?
link |
02:02:01.240
It's about power and it's a game.
link |
02:02:03.240
Do you think he understood the long term goals he has or was it the short term game of it that he enjoyed, the ability to destroy you?
link |
02:02:10.240
Well, yeah, it was the short term game of it.
link |
02:02:13.240
To control another human?
link |
02:02:15.240
Yeah. And also, I think for him, like, the motivations are just different. So, you know, he spent a year incarcerated because he never got out on bail.
link |
02:02:28.240
But then he got out.
link |
02:02:30.240
He's out of prison, though.
link |
02:02:32.240
He got out before I went in to serve my time, which was particularly, you know, like, psychologically, I had to try really hard not to be infuriated.
link |
02:02:49.240
But anyway, so I think for him, you know, the consequence of spending time in jail is sort of like an inconvenience.
link |
02:02:56.240
You know, it's like life is a game.
link |
02:02:59.240
And so he wouldn't feel if you're not capable of being emotionally hurt, then you're, you know, you have immense power because you can go around and do things.
link |
02:03:12.240
And people can't hurt you. It's like a superpower.
link |
02:03:15.240
And he did this for people who are not familiar. I guess he did this to other women.
link |
02:03:19.240
Yes. Yes.
link |
02:03:23.240
I think it was in the documentary that his, I guess, ex wife from somewhere else.
link |
02:03:31.240
Florida.
link |
02:03:32.240
Florida.
link |
02:03:33.240
Of course, Florida. Sorry.
link |
02:03:36.240
Strong, strong words.
link |
02:03:38.240
Well, it's just like when there's the weirdest story about, you know, people eating Tide pods and then doing crazy.
link |
02:03:45.240
It's like it's always in, it's always in Florida.
link |
02:03:47.240
So I feel like whenever crazy things, so to me it makes sense that he would have spent time in Florida before and that's where.
link |
02:03:53.240
Crazy in a good way.
link |
02:03:54.240
And I mean that on an insult on him.
link |
02:03:56.240
I also like she's an amazing person.
link |
02:03:58.240
Yes.
link |
02:03:59.240
So it's like it's him that I'm making the like Florida is a bit weird.
link |
02:04:05.240
Yes, he manipulated her as well, lied to her, that kind of things.
link |
02:04:10.240
Well, jumping around, but one of the things you said that was disturbingly misleading is the ending of the documentary.
link |
02:04:17.240
And the ending has a phone call, I think, of you and Anthony talking.
link |
02:04:24.240
So high level, let me ask.
link |
02:04:27.240
How many times have you talked with Anthony since you got out of prison and what did you talk about?
link |
02:04:35.240
And why is that quote misleading, that segment of audio misleading?
link |
02:04:41.240
My issue with it also was that it was deliberately misleading, which was what was particularly infuriating about it.
link |
02:04:52.240
And then also there was, it was like there were things, one major thing that was incorrect that I think helped allow people to make an incorrect conclusion at the end was
link |
02:05:04.240
in the film it talks about, I say something about how my accountant made a joke about if I married him, he could easily transfer me money without tax consequences.
link |
02:05:13.240
And then the film has me saying something like, you know, and then within 24 hours we were married.
link |
02:05:20.240
But that's like audio from here and audio from here spliced together.
link |
02:05:24.240
So they made it seem like there's a.
link |
02:05:26.240
Like I married him because it was like he could give me money and that wasn't the case.
link |
02:05:30.240
So you're part mastermind of some kind of scheme that involve money transfer and you got married and that kind of thing.
link |
02:05:37.240
Right. Or if nothing else, I had like, I was trying to get money.
link |
02:05:40.240
That's why I married him.
link |
02:05:41.240
So which is absurd because again, you know, New York is full of legitimate people with loads of money.
link |
02:05:47.240
If I really wanted to marry somebody for money in New York, it wouldn't be that hard to do.
link |
02:05:52.240
But anyway, it was like it was just a deliberate making it seem like my intention was, you know, to marry him for his fictitious money.
link |
02:06:02.240
Right. Okay, so that's one.
link |
02:06:05.240
And either way.
link |
02:06:06.240
Let's go to that ending thing because we're on that sort of topic.
link |
02:06:09.240
When you got out of prison, you know, what the film implies is that whatever, there's a small aspect of your mind that still wants to continue a relationship with Anthony.
link |
02:06:25.240
Yeah, that's not the case.
link |
02:06:26.240
And not just that, but there's still flirtation and that kind of a body and collide.
link |
02:06:33.240
And then I was laughing.
link |
02:06:34.240
Like, we got the world like at our fingertips, we're playing.
link |
02:06:41.240
So, I mean, one of the exciting things about being like a couple that's fucking with the world that's getting away with something is that there's all these powerful forces that want to catch you in a crime and you keep getting away with it.
link |
02:06:59.240
That's exciting.
link |
02:07:01.240
In some romantic world, it could be.
link |
02:07:05.240
Not in this case.
link |
02:07:07.240
Right. And also, I always have to keep reminding people like, get away with what?
link |
02:07:11.240
Because I lost everything and all these people lost other, you know, people I cared about lost a lot.
link |
02:07:18.240
My mother lost a lot, but I lost everything too.
link |
02:07:22.240
Yeah, your restaurant, your dream.
link |
02:07:26.240
Yeah, my reputation, my stuff, my home, you know, ending up with millions of dollars of debt.
link |
02:07:34.240
Like, it's not even like I lost it all and then it's a clean slate.
link |
02:07:37.240
It's like I lost it all and now I have this like giant boulder of, or like this wobbly, unclear how to like, yeah.
link |
02:07:49.240
So when people say, got away with something, I'm always like, got away with what?
link |
02:07:56.240
Destroying my life and ending up in debt?
link |
02:07:58.240
Because that's, it's not even like, you can't even sort of point to like, as if I was trying to do something and then oops, that happened.
link |
02:08:06.240
It's like, there's no, nothing that logically makes sense if somebody was trying to decipher my, you know, whatever motives I might have had.
link |
02:08:19.240
Yeah, you didn't walk away from the explosion, you were inside the explosion.
link |
02:08:23.240
Okay, but that said, the movie implied, and so, I mean, it's interesting to ask, not just in clarifying the movie, but just as a human being, you're out of prison, he's out of prison.
link |
02:08:41.240
There was, you know, there was that toxic connection, but it was there, and there's a depth to it, so toxic connections can be pretty deep.
link |
02:08:53.240
So how, what was the conversation like and how often have you talked with him?
link |
02:08:59.240
Well, we don't speak anymore, and that call at the end was...
link |
02:09:04.240
Not even on Gchat?
link |
02:09:06.240
Was recorded on, like, I recorded the call and gave it to them, you know, so I was like, deliberately recording him. It's not like I was caught on a hot mic, like, I made that call.
link |
02:09:18.240
It's part of the documentary.
link |
02:09:19.240
I recorded him intentionally, I was trying to get him to repeat some of like, the kookier things he would say about like, his meat suit or some of the weird like, the things about something not being real.
link |
02:09:32.240
The more like, fantastical things, I was trying to get him to repeat those things.
link |
02:09:36.240
It was probably like a 40 minute call, which I mean, it's actually on my phone, I still have it, I haven't gone back to listen to it, but...
link |
02:09:42.240
Do you ever think of publishing that whole thing?
link |
02:09:44.240
Oh yeah, oh I think about publishing everything, my entire journal, all...
link |
02:09:47.240
You should publish that call unedited, just publish it. That'd be fun.
link |
02:09:52.240
No, I want to publish like, a lot of stuff. He took all these videos of me also, that they used a couple of clips of, and I would, I mean, I would, they're also on my phone, I would publish them all. I would publish everything.
link |
02:10:04.240
In particular, because I...
link |
02:10:07.240
You should release that with your book.
link |
02:10:09.240
Yeah, I probably, I mean, I've planned to do that eventually, if all of that material would be really useful to psychologists or people studying it. So, to the extent that it would help other people understand what happened, which I think would be meaningful.
link |
02:10:26.240
Well, he's still out there, he's fascinating.
link |
02:10:28.240
Yeah, he's still out there doing weird, weird shit with his clean slate. I get a little annoyed about that. He's got the clean slate walking away.
link |
02:10:37.240
Well, he didn't have a restaurant, he didn't have a persona. Does he have any public persona, or no? Or we don't know?
link |
02:10:45.240
He got booted off of Twitter.
link |
02:10:47.240
He had a tweet.
link |
02:10:48.240
Maybe Elon will put him back on.
link |
02:10:50.240
Is that a passive aggressive statement?
link |
02:10:52.240
No, not at all. I find that whole conversation really, really interesting.
link |
02:10:57.240
Whether to put somebody like Anthony on, back on Twitter?
link |
02:11:00.240
Well, no, I think, because I used to always think like, if only everybody had to identify as themselves on Twitter, and you could have like a parody account.
link |
02:11:08.240
Yeah.
link |
02:11:09.240
Or like, Leon has an account, but it's very clear that it's me behind it. Or sometimes there's like, you know, Devin Nunes cow.
link |
02:11:16.240
Wait, really?
link |
02:11:17.240
Like, so people have parody accounts, but if we could identify who it is, then a lot of...
link |
02:11:23.240
Why did he get booted off of Twitter?
link |
02:11:26.240
I don't know. But I used to, so in the last few years, I would periodically, probably like once a month, maybe more, I would like, look at his Twitter, just to kind of see like, well, where is he and, you know, like, just to see like, what is he up to?
link |
02:11:42.240
And I figured out, I could tell from the photographs that he'd moved to California.
link |
02:11:47.240
And I think he might have told me one of the last times I spoke to him that he was going to move to California.
link |
02:11:56.240
And then I also screen grabbed a lot of stuff that he put on Twitter, and he put these creepy videos of himself on Twitter at the beginning of COVID. I screen grabbed those.
link |
02:12:07.240
And then one day I went and like, he was, you know, account was suspended. And then I kept going back and it's like been suspended ever since. So he might have started a new account. And I don't, I don't know what it is. Probably...
link |
02:12:19.240
He's probably in California, you're saying?
link |
02:12:22.240
He is in California. That's been verified.
link |
02:12:25.240
Somebody who was going to have to interact with him in an official capacity was going to go meet him. And I said, and was nervous about it. And I said, he's going to be really likable, like, you're going to like him.
link |
02:12:39.240
He's probably going to like figure out what you're interested in. Talk sports, talk, whatever it is that he figures out quickly that you're interested in. He's going to be really nice. He's going to seem like a nice guy.
link |
02:12:50.240
And that person later got back to me and was like, you're exactly right.
link |
02:12:55.240
So yeah, that's the, that's the sociopath thing, right?
link |
02:12:58.240
Yeah.
link |
02:12:59.240
You have to be extremely careful. But inside a relationship, that's even more dangerous. Like...
link |
02:13:03.240
So I think that part of the reason I spoke to him was entirely self serving and strategic after the fact.
link |
02:13:12.240
For the documentary.
link |
02:13:13.240
Well, even before I knew there was ever going to be a documentary, I spoke to him. And I, and I knew how dangerous it was because I knew that in a situation like this, you're supposed to have no contact, which makes sense.
link |
02:13:27.240
And I understand why, which makes it extra tragic when people have kids with a sociopath or in a narcissistic abusive relationship. If you have kids, then you're tethered, which is tragic. But...
link |
02:13:39.240
Why are you supposed to avoid conversations? Because you can get pulled right back.
link |
02:13:42.240
So they have no contact. Yeah, because they'll continue abuse or they'll, you'll be vulnerable to them being able to pull you back in. So I knew that to be the case.
link |
02:13:55.240
But why was it self serving? Why did you talk to him anyway?
link |
02:14:00.240
Because he was getting out, he was going to be out free out in the open while I was going to be locked up at Rikers for three and a half months.
link |
02:14:10.240
And the one thing that, you know, if his motivation was to destroy me, then what what else could he do to really, like, you know, hammer that last nail in the coffin?
link |
02:14:25.240
That would be Leon. And so he would have known that Leon would be staying with my mother.
link |
02:14:31.240
You know, he knows where he spent a lot of time at her house. He knows where she lives. It would be super easy for him to just drive up there, you know, wait for her to let him out.
link |
02:14:41.240
And then, you know, he because out in the country, he can be off leash and all he'd have to do is kind of whistle, call him over and he could take him away and do whatever.
link |
02:14:52.240
So I was completely, like, gripped with that fear.
link |
02:14:57.240
So not fear for yourself, but fear for Leon.
link |
02:15:00.240
Well, I was going to be at least safe from him, but I was going to be locked away. So.
link |
02:15:07.240
Oh, yeah. Rikers. Yeah. Sure. So I got it. I got it. I got it.
link |
02:15:12.240
I would be powerless to do any things. And he would have free rein to go destroy me further by, you know, taking or hurting Leon.
link |
02:15:25.240
And then when he got out, I still I had unfollowed him from my own account, but Leon had never unfollowed him. So I was looking at I know I was looking at his at his account.
link |
02:15:40.240
Can I just say, because Joe has an account for his dog, too. I just love when people do that. It's so great. Because I actually pretend in my mind, for some reason, I do think Leon has an account. Like, I don't. You forget that there's a human behind it.
link |
02:15:56.240
You're like, oh, OK, cool. Yeah, I know. I love it when people do that. Anyway, so continue. So Leon didn't unfollow him. And what?
link |
02:16:05.240
So I was able to go back and look at his Twitter and he somehow quickly got a phone, but he very quickly started tweeting right after he got out.
link |
02:16:17.240
And and I was kind of like fascinated because I didn't know what to expect or what he was going to be saying.
link |
02:16:24.240
And and and then he started saying things that I could tell were directed at me, you know, like little things that only I would know, you know, like random things, like things that were like the equivalent of like an inside joke that you have.
link |
02:16:38.240
And just so he was posting things like that. And there's so many things going on at once. So another thing that would have in a twisted, but I think understandable way.
link |
02:16:55.240
Sort of a sick way that I was fully aware of is that here I am having gone through this completely like messed up thing that now I'm in trouble for. Everybody's looking at and nobody understands.
link |
02:17:08.240
Right. And so there was this unfortunate situation of the only person who understands what I went through is the person who put me through it.
link |
02:17:20.240
Right. So is that were you also just a little bit seeking closure of some kind?
link |
02:17:26.240
Probably a lot. But also with the awareness that I probably wasn't going to get it, you know. And I mean, I I know for a fact I would never get it in the same way that which is why.
link |
02:17:39.240
I was able to later on, like in the context of recording those calls, I was able to talk to him in this detached way because I know he doesn't give a shit that like he doesn't give any shits about what he did to my mother or me or anybody or anything just doesn't care.
link |
02:18:00.240
So he's certainly not going to care if I, you know, he's never going to say like I'm sorry or I did a bad thing or or like he's not going to be affected.
link |
02:18:12.240
Like if I yelled and screamed at him, that would just be frustrating for me. And he would actually probably be gratified by that. So.
link |
02:18:20.240
So that gave you that empowered you in being cold and sort of distant.
link |
02:18:27.240
Prior experience where I had to do the same thing, where, like, if you're if you're able to be very cold and not allow somebody to push your buttons, then you're taking away their power.
link |
02:18:42.240
And then that feels empowering or feels like reclaiming a little bit of your power.
link |
02:18:46.240
So in my talking to him, I always had a reason, you know, like there was always like I didn't want him to hurt Leon or I wanted information or I wanted to know where he was.
link |
02:18:57.240
I'd rather let him think that, you know, maybe he could still manipulate me one day or whatever.
link |
02:19:03.240
It was like safer to keep that there than to not know where he was and if I was going to like be walking Leon and turn the corner and he's standing there and like it.
link |
02:19:16.240
Like if there's a crazy murderer out on the loose, you'd rather know where they are than have no idea.
link |
02:19:21.240
So there are a lot of different reasons.
link |
02:19:24.240
Why does it upset you?
link |
02:19:26.240
Why was it wrong to have that audio clip at the end of the documentary?
link |
02:19:30.240
What did it well, because it implied all kinds of things that were completely not true.
link |
02:19:34.240
And it also just didn't make sense. And it confused people.
link |
02:19:37.240
And so so for people who haven't watched this spoiler alert is they play the clip of.
link |
02:19:45.240
So I don't even remember what was said, but it was kind of.
link |
02:19:49.240
That last what we spoke about. Yeah.
link |
02:19:52.240
What was the what was I only watched like I still haven't watched it.
link |
02:19:56.240
I only watched the film once while, you know, people were looking at me for my reaction and I was crying and it was really weird and strange and surreal and I haven't gone back to watch it again.
link |
02:20:08.240
I feel like I'm just going to get more annoyed, but I will eventually.
link |
02:20:12.240
But and when I when the ending happened, I immediately blurted out, like, I hate that. I hate that ending. But I sort of assumed a lot of people saw it for what it was.
link |
02:20:26.240
They saw that it was like the director doing a weird thing and that it was kind of just weird and off and like, that doesn't make sense.
link |
02:20:33.240
But they didn't draw conclusions from it.
link |
02:20:35.240
So it was basically you joking around, like flirting almost.
link |
02:20:37.240
It made it seem like as if we're still friendly. Yeah.
link |
02:20:42.240
And there's more to come. It's almost like there's going to be a bad vegan too.
link |
02:20:48.240
Right. Or. Yeah. And then also, I mean, it made it seem like, you know, if I was laughing with him that I don't take anything seriously, you know, that I don't take what happened seriously or.
link |
02:21:01.240
Yeah. Don't feel any remorse. Exactly.
link |
02:21:04.240
Yeah. And they after that, he goes to the credits with Wild World, which is a great song.
link |
02:21:12.240
Yeah. Oh, baby. It's a wild world.
link |
02:21:15.240
I never got to hear that because the version I watched didn't have the end credits, but I knew that they used that song at the end and paid a lot for it.
link |
02:21:26.240
Yeah. Yeah. I was like, oh, well, you got this song.
link |
02:21:29.240
Did you ever say what was the darkest thing about yourself that you discover from the book?
link |
02:21:36.240
Oh, no. We took attention. We started talking about exactly. Yeah. About the G chats.
link |
02:21:43.240
And I think it was, I guess it was trying to understand how I was able to be sarcastic and make jokes at his expense.
link |
02:21:55.240
Dirt while all that stuff was going on.
link |
02:22:00.240
So what is that? Have you figured out what that means about you?
link |
02:22:06.240
No. No, it just was interesting to look at.
link |
02:22:11.240
Also, I think, you know, I have a tendency sometimes to be sort of like jokingly hyperbolic or sarcastic, and it's gotten me into trouble.
link |
02:22:25.240
One time I got locked up in the Harlem psych ward for a day because of my hyperbole and sarcasm and lost in translation errors.
link |
02:22:43.240
That's a heck of a lost in translation error. Did you say something funny to a therapist?
link |
02:22:51.240
It was. Yeah. I mean, I was sort of making jokes about how bad I was feeling, but in a hyperbolic way.
link |
02:22:58.240
And so then suddenly somebody told somebody and then the loss in translation and then they were worried that I might kill myself and then did a wellness check and then tried to call me.
link |
02:23:08.240
And I was in the shower, so I didn't answer the phone. So then somebody called the police to do a wellness check on me.
link |
02:23:15.240
Things just escalated. And then not knowing that if I had handled it the right, if I had immediately, if I'd sort of understood what was going on and handled it the right way immediately, I probably could have gotten out of it.
link |
02:23:31.240
But they err on the side of taking you to the hospital no matter what. Makes a lot of sense. And I didn't know that. And it also.
link |
02:23:36.240
So you really leaned into the joke by going to the hospital.
link |
02:23:40.240
I didn't. It's sort of one of those situations that was both comical and tragic because, and would actually make a really good, it's weird how I do this sometimes.
link |
02:23:52.240
Like it would make a really good scene in a filmed version.
link |
02:23:56.240
Who would play you in the film?
link |
02:23:58.240
I don't know. There is a thing being made that's a scary thing because. Sharon Stone? Who would play?
link |
02:24:05.240
Have you cast the scene yet?
link |
02:24:07.240
No, but there's a thing being made that I have nothing to do with, which is frustrating and weird.
link |
02:24:14.240
What film about you?
link |
02:24:15.240
About, it's like somebody is making a fictionalized drama and it's frustrating because for all kinds of obvious reasons, it's like annoying and.
link |
02:24:25.240
It can go any way.
link |
02:24:26.240
It could go any way.
link |
02:24:27.240
You could be like the bad guy.
link |
02:24:28.240
And inevitably they'll get a bajillion things wrong. And there are also a bunch of people like profiting off of it and like, thanks guys.
link |
02:24:37.240
You know, so it's infuriating for all kinds of reasons.
link |
02:24:41.240
Do you know who's playing? Who are the actors?
link |
02:24:43.240
No, I don't even like, I just don't like, I'll, I'll inevitably know, but I don't really want to know. The whole thing is just annoying.
link |
02:24:50.240
And also I've always, people ask me this all the time and I always thought because of the way everything that happened was such a kind of a slow build and there was so much nuance and it's, it's kind of really hard to understand that it could only really be done well in like a Breaking Bad type of series long, like a long series.
link |
02:25:12.240
Where like you would be taken through these kind of gut wrenching, icky, slow build things and then that would make it all make sense.
link |
02:25:22.240
Like that, if it was done that way, it could be done accurately.
link |
02:25:26.240
But the reason why I think, so I made these stupid jokes and then somebody did a wellness check and, or asked the police to do it well, but when they knocked on my door and came in, it was like a repeat of getting arrested.
link |
02:25:43.240
So I sort of weirdly flashed back to that and then burst into tears, which isn't the appropriate response if you're trying to diffuse a, if you're trying to discourage the people coming to do the wellness check from taking you to the hospital, starting to cry is not the good, the right reaction.
link |
02:26:05.240
So the thing is, I mean, there is, it's funny, but it could be also through the joke that the joke, the best jokes are grounded in truth and pain.
link |
02:26:19.240
In this case, pain.
link |
02:26:21.240
Yeah.
link |
02:26:22.240
So there, you know, have you ever, if I may ask, considered suicide?
link |
02:26:29.240
Yes.
link |
02:26:34.240
When?
link |
02:26:36.240
Well, I'm kind of a wimp, so, you know, I'm afraid of all of the gruesome ways, but one of the things I remember doing is sort of hoarding medications, which I had when, around the time and before he took me away, because I wanted, like I wanted to, I wanted the safety of a, like an out.
link |
02:27:05.240
And.
link |
02:27:07.240
But around that time, so when, that's the road trip, right before the road trip from hell, you were hoarding.
link |
02:27:13.240
Around that time, yeah.
link |
02:27:14.240
Hoarding medication and.
link |
02:27:15.240
Like I, yeah, like if I could get my hands on any sort of weird medication, I would, I would kind of hold on to it.
link |
02:27:24.240
And.
link |
02:27:25.240
To all the chaos that you go through.
link |
02:27:26.240
But I think I knew that it would be hard to do it that way.
link |
02:27:30.240
But you were thinking.
link |
02:27:31.240
I thought about it, but I never.
link |
02:27:35.240
In that really tough time, you know, you're thinking about, you're thinking about taking your own life.
link |
02:27:44.240
What gave you hope?
link |
02:27:47.240
What gave you sort of, because the business, the restaurant that you give so much of yourself to is lost.
link |
02:27:55.240
You're lying to everybody.
link |
02:27:59.240
You're in the hole financially.
link |
02:28:02.240
You're being psychologically trapped, manipulated.
link |
02:28:06.240
I might just go kill myself now.
link |
02:28:10.240
Well, you're still there.
link |
02:28:13.240
Please don't.
link |
02:28:14.240
See, I made a joke about it.
link |
02:28:15.240
Like that's.
link |
02:28:16.240
There you go.
link |
02:28:18.240
But it's always there.
link |
02:28:20.240
As the Albert Camus, you know, says, you basically always have to be aggressively looking for a reason to live.
link |
02:28:31.240
Otherwise.
link |
02:28:34.240
What's the point?
link |
02:28:35.240
Yeah.
link |
02:28:36.240
Otherwise it's easy to go the other way.
link |
02:28:38.240
Because why live is a very good question.
link |
02:28:41.240
But anyways, by way of hope, by way, you know, it's a dark time.
link |
02:28:47.240
It's a dark time.
link |
02:28:48.240
If you could sort of look back, what gave you just strength?
link |
02:28:55.240
I think that just, you know, just having like a sort of relentless optimism.
link |
02:29:04.240
And I think, too, that sometimes people assume that suicide is the result of circumstances, which maybe in some cases it is.
link |
02:29:14.240
But I think one of the things that that book explains well is that very often it doesn't have anything to do with circumstances.
link |
02:29:19.240
It's just the pain.
link |
02:29:22.240
Which book?
link |
02:29:23.240
The Darkness Visible.
link |
02:29:26.240
You know, because people like to.
link |
02:29:27.240
So when somebody commits suicide, people will very often criticize them like it was a selfish act if they have a family, which most people do.
link |
02:29:35.240
But especially if they have kids.
link |
02:29:36.240
And I think that, yeah, everybody's quick to sort of call the person who killed themselves selfish.
link |
02:29:44.240
And I think that the type of pain that one is experiencing that leads to that is something that most people, and I don't, like people don't understand, but it's not a selfish thing.
link |
02:29:57.240
It's just like quite literally becomes intolerable from what I understand.
link |
02:30:02.240
And it can hit you.
link |
02:30:03.240
It could be slow.
link |
02:30:04.240
It could be fast.
link |
02:30:05.240
Yes.
link |
02:30:07.240
That pain.
link |
02:30:08.240
Yes.
link |
02:30:09.240
So I think because for me, it was more just my circumstances were so crappy, but also I had an awareness that even in Rikers, I knew how wildly lucky I was to have, you know, family, a support system, you know, opportunities.
link |
02:30:30.240
And like, I'll always be OK one way or another.
link |
02:30:38.240
So I felt lucky that I have that.
link |
02:30:43.240
But, you know, also I want the shame of everything that happened.
link |
02:30:49.240
And, you know, will I ever be able to crawl out from under it and rebuild something?
link |
02:30:55.240
I don't know.
link |
02:30:57.240
So there were certainly times where, especially when I would learn something new, like reading the emails between Mr. Fox, my mother, I just wanted a, I wanted like a meteor to hit my particular spot on the earth right then and there just because it was.
link |
02:31:15.240
He was manipulating your mom, too, because your mom loved you and was willing to give money.
link |
02:31:20.240
Yeah. Yeah. And it was really grotesque.
link |
02:31:23.240
And so and I feel like it's my fault.
link |
02:31:26.240
What's your mom say about this whole situation now looking back?
link |
02:31:31.240
We don't talk about it as much as one would think that we would because I feel sickening because I feel like it's my fault.
link |
02:31:40.240
And I think she also feels sick over it.
link |
02:31:44.240
And so we don't talk about it as much as one might think of.
link |
02:31:47.240
Sometimes I've had to ask questions in the process of writing the book.
link |
02:31:51.240
And then there are other things where, like, I could ask the questions, but I just don't want to because I don't want to put her through that or, you know, it's not really necessary to ask the questions.
link |
02:32:01.240
But there are things that I'm sort of curious about.
link |
02:32:07.240
When you went on that road trip from hell, what was that like? Where'd you guys go first? Vegas? So you drove New York where?
link |
02:32:22.240
It was a series of stops at like hotel, motel type places.
link |
02:32:27.240
I did a similar road trip, but from Boston. I drove across the United States with no destination.
link |
02:32:33.240
I had always wanted to do that. And now I feel like it's one of those things that's sort of like ruined for me because a lot of you can always reclaim it.
link |
02:32:41.240
Yeah, I could. But now. Yeah.
link |
02:32:45.240
I did think about like how one day if I did some sort of a book tour or something that I imagine this.
link |
02:32:52.240
Leon and I in a car. It has to be different than, man, book tours, if you're not careful, can suck the soul out of a human being.
link |
02:33:08.240
I think you have to do like a Hunter S. Thompson style book tour where you miss a bunch of the dates because you got too drunk the night before.
link |
02:33:16.240
Or I just what I worry about is that I just would be feeling terrible in some way and not be up for it.
link |
02:33:26.240
Up for the trip or up for the speaking?
link |
02:33:28.240
For like a certain type of appearance. I think I'm always afraid of that in committing to things like if it involved going to a big public event.
link |
02:33:41.240
Yeah, I think you have to be very careful. Like podcast is an interesting one. I'm always surprised that people just jump on podcasts they haven't really listened to.
link |
02:33:49.240
And just do a lot of podcasts, a kind of book tour. First of all, financially, it doesn't make any sense.
link |
02:33:56.240
Like especially going on small podcasts, like what's the benefit? Like really, you want to go on just a couple of big podcasts that you're actually a fan of.
link |
02:34:03.240
It's really, really, really important. People don't, like they don't understand the power. I mean, maybe you just don't understand podcasts.
link |
02:34:12.240
But me as a fan of podcasts is like the biggest thing I love listening to is when a guest is a fan, they understand the culture, the style, the sound, the feel of the podcast.
link |
02:34:25.240
They understand the other person, they feel the pain, the hopes of the other person, the weird like quirks of the other person makes for much better listening.
link |
02:34:36.240
And ultimately, the appearance itself is not just enough to sell the book. You're selling yourself as a human being. And that requires having chemistry and all those kinds of things.
link |
02:34:45.240
Yeah, I agree.
link |
02:34:47.240
And podcast appearances are exhausting. Like you're giving a lot of yourself. It's intimate. It's deep. Like, I don't know.
link |
02:34:55.240
Anyway, road trip. You don't remember the motels and the hotels along the way?
link |
02:35:01.240
Well, there are a lot of things where like, I'll remember things that happened, but I don't remember where it was.
link |
02:35:06.240
He just drove without a destination. Really.
link |
02:35:10.240
I assume he must have known ahead of time, but he made it seem like, like, oh, funny we ended up in Vegas. Funny how that happened.
link |
02:35:20.240
But it now when I see all the places that we stopped, they were all places with where there are casinos.
link |
02:35:27.240
So there's a lot more casinos around the country than I knew.
link |
02:35:33.240
And they're.
link |
02:35:35.240
So he had a gambling addiction.
link |
02:35:38.240
Yeah. Yes. But I think that it's not. So I think that regular people have gambling addictions and it's a horrible, tragic thing and can destroy their lives.
link |
02:35:48.240
And I know people like it. Regular people can have a gambling addiction, which is explained in the way that addictions are explained for him.
link |
02:35:59.240
I don't think it was so much an addiction as like a thrill seeking because he could win money, lose money, and he didn't really care.
link |
02:36:10.240
Whereas somebody who has an actual addiction and then all normal people with normal human emotions, you know, would either be elated and relieved or devastated to lose a lot of money.
link |
02:36:25.240
And for him, it didn't really care. It was more, again, I think it was more just like a game.
link |
02:36:30.240
Like, what was going through your mind here? Like, would you be on the run? Did you feel like you were on the run?
link |
02:36:36.240
No.
link |
02:36:37.240
Did you know you were on the run?
link |
02:36:40.240
No. So I didn't know that. I mean, the other thing is the restaurant was operating and he took me away.
link |
02:36:48.240
And then, like, people weren't paid and it all sort of fell apart.
link |
02:36:53.240
And you weren't checking your texts or any of that?
link |
02:36:56.240
No. And then he had my phone and my email. I did later on get, later on I got a brand new phone with like an empty phone with no existing numbers in it or whatnot.
link |
02:37:11.240
And so that he and I could communicate when, you know, I was, went to the grocery store or something like that.
link |
02:37:19.240
What was the, what was the reason he had the phone? Like, what was the narrative, the story that he was taking over your phone?
link |
02:37:28.240
Was it, I mean, like, how did you allow that to happen? Or maybe a better way to ask is, how did he make that happen?
link |
02:37:40.240
Well, I was conditioned to it before because before he was always checking my phone, which was wildly infuriating. And I feel like, like.
link |
02:37:53.240
You fixed it by giving him the phone.
link |
02:37:56.240
Well, I mean, the conditions were different later on.
link |
02:37:59.240
But in some sense, I didn't want my phone because everything, like I was in a state of shock and it was just like, take it, fine.
link |
02:38:06.240
Like, I give up. Like, I guess I'd given up. And so, yeah, I'd given up. So there was no, like, I wasn't going to fight back on anything.
link |
02:38:16.240
Before, when he would take my phone and look through it, it was, it was infuriating. And he sort of forced me to get used to it.
link |
02:38:25.240
And this is, again, something that, like, people who've been in cults would understand because it's like they condition you to not react negatively to things that you would normally react negatively to.
link |
02:38:35.240
And like, if I was in a relationship, like, if somebody, I would never, ever look in somebody's phone. And if somebody did that to me, I would be like, goodbye.
link |
02:38:50.240
So I'm pretty sensitive about that. And so it was very infuriating when he would take my phone and look at it.
link |
02:38:59.240
And it got to the point where not only did I feel like everything I, you know, said or wrote or emailed digitally or whatnot would be read,
link |
02:39:11.240
but he got me to the point of feeling like I was being watched all the time in a non explainable way.
link |
02:39:21.240
Yeah, what were some of the, you didn't mention them, the documentary touched on some of them. What are some of the fantastical stories? So he mentioned that he might help make Leon immortal.
link |
02:39:37.240
All of that was always really vague. Intentionally, like a lot of what he talked about was always very vague. But a lot of that stuff was very vague. And again, like, slowly over time.
link |
02:39:49.240
And a lot of those things, too, are things that, you know, conveniently, you kind of can't disprove. So it's almost like, you know, people believe in God or religious people believe certain things.
link |
02:40:04.240
And so one could argue, why is it that much crazier for me to have been open to the idea that, you know, maybe Leon, maybe we do live forever, in some way when a lot of religious people have similar beliefs.
link |
02:40:21.240
So one of the other thing is, he was, what, maybe you can correct me, but reincarnated or something like that, or?
link |
02:40:30.240
He acted like he had lived many lifetimes, and had all kinds of wisdom from having lived all these prior lifetimes, and being aware of it.
link |
02:40:44.240
So was that, and it was vague, but it was somehow believable? Or is it just like part of the charm? Like, what, how do you, how do you not call bullshit?
link |
02:40:59.240
I know.
link |
02:41:00.240
Not necessarily bullshit. I understand when you're smitten in whatever way. But like, a little more details, proof. I suppose it's easy to just, you know, like, put it off for later. Assume that more details will come later.
link |
02:41:21.240
But I think he's a mentalist or an illusionist named Darren Brown. And it was on a Joe Rogan podcast. I think Joe interviewed Darren Brown. I think Sam Harris interviewed him. I got really intrigued.
link |
02:41:37.240
And then I was looking for other podcasts, or maybe Joe interviewed him, like, right after. I may have gone looking for it. But anyway, it was in the conversation with Joe where Darren explains, he's somebody I would love to meet, a mentalist and an illusionist, because they understand a lot of the ways in which the mind can be manipulated.
link |
02:41:56.240
So I feel like they would, if they looked at everything about my situation, they would be able to understand better how he was able to get me to believe things or go along with things. Because Darren Brown is pretty fascinating what he does.
link |
02:42:11.240
And he's really seems like a very kind person, and he's very open about it. And when he was talking to Joe, he said this thing that, and I use this quote in my book. And again, I'm paraphrasing because I don't have it in front of me.
link |
02:42:27.240
But it's like, he says something about how we want to believe the lie, because we'd rather believe that it's something amazing than just that ugly and pathetic a lie. And whatever he said was said in a much better way.
link |
02:42:45.240
And so he was explaining it in the context of the way that an illusionist or whatever they're called is able to pull off certain things, which is about somebody who was watching and watched that person leverage people's tendency to want to believe that something amazing and cool is about to happen versus this is just a really ugly, pathetic lie.
link |
02:43:14.240
So I think that a lot of the things that Mr. Fox, that he put forward, I couldn't understand it from the perspective of it being a lie because it just seemed too weird and crazy. So I think that this happens sometimes where you believe somebody because it seems so weird that they would lie about it.
link |
02:43:39.240
I think that somebody has, or it's been said sometimes that the more fantastical the lie, the more believable it is because you don't believe that somebody would tell that lie. And I think something also that Mr. Fox, people like him are capable of doing is going out and lying in very brazen ways that normal people would be terrified to do.
link |
02:44:02.240
And that kind of also makes it more believable. So if somebody could go out on a world stage and lie and not kind of feel weird about that or even knowing that it's a lie that can be pointed out as being a lie.
link |
02:44:20.240
There's also the layer of to what extent is this person in some way also delusional themselves and sort of believing their lies because people have asked me that and I've wondered the same thing. To what extent did he believe some of the stuff he was saying?
link |
02:44:34.240
And I think probably there was some sort of delusional aspect, almost like he was sort of halfway aware of playing his own sort of virtual reality game, like he was in some kind of metaverse in his brain.
link |
02:44:51.240
So you think he believed some of the things he was saying?
link |
02:44:54.240
In some way, yeah. Or he wanted to, because he wanted to be his own, he wanted to be a superhero. He never built anything or created anything or accomplished anything in his life. Yet, so in his own brain, if he could turn himself into a movie superhero.
link |
02:45:13.240
That's a nice shortcut. What about the Navy SEAL thing? Did that ever get resolved? The lie that he said that he's a Navy SEAL?
link |
02:45:26.240
I don't know if he said he was a Navy SEAL or that he implied that he worked with the CIA or then it was like he worked with Black Ops that is by definition under the radar. So I mean, that's obviously a huge red flag now going forward.
link |
02:45:45.240
First of all, if somebody tells you that information pretty quickly, that's itself a red flag.
link |
02:45:52.240
All right. You crossed that off my list of pickup lines.
link |
02:45:58.240
But, you know, conveniently, if he say in some world he actually did work for like Blackwater or one of those places, I wouldn't be able to just call someplace and verify it.
link |
02:46:16.240
Anyway, I think that in some psychological way that I don't understand, he probably did in some way halfway exists in this world where he was this, you know, like fighter and he would say things like, it's because of people like me that people like you can sleep at night, which is probably a line out of a movie that I've never seen.
link |
02:46:39.240
I feel like a lot of things. That's funny. That is a great. Who said that? Is that really a line out of a movie? It's not a movie.
link |
02:46:50.240
You know what would happen at Rikers is when these things would happen where one of us couldn't think of something and you're like, oh, who was that actor in that movie in that thing?
link |
02:46:59.240
No. And so what we do is like somebody would be on the phone and you'd be like, hey, who are you talking to? Can you ask them to look up on their phone? Like, so we'd ask people on the phone or somebody would go make a call and, you know, you'd have to call somebody and ask them to Google the cast of a movie or something like that.
link |
02:47:17.240
I think you would find jail. Don't ever get arrested or try not to, but I think you would find jail fascinating.
link |
02:47:22.240
Oh, I always wanted to go to jail, prison, because there's a lot of elements to it and I'll ask you questions about it, but I feel like I can get a lot of reading done.
link |
02:47:32.240
I got a ton of reading done.
link |
02:47:33.240
Yeah, yeah, yes. I remember now. People attribute this to George Orwell, but they're not sure if George Orwell ever said it, but it's something like there's a lot of different variations.
link |
02:47:44.240
But we sleep safely at night because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would harm us. And there's a lot of variations of this, but basically we depend, our entire society depends on bad motherfuckers who are willing to fight to protect our freedoms, to protect our wellbeing.
link |
02:48:04.240
And one of the things about the United States is because we're surrounded by water, we don't get to see the violence that's required in part to protect the sovereignty of nations.
link |
02:48:20.240
You mentioned that I would, not to go to prison, but that I may enjoy my time there. Let me ask you, by the way, I love prison movies.
link |
02:48:33.240
You would find it fascinating. I don't because it's still kind of too soon.
link |
02:48:38.240
Well, how was your time? You spent three and a half months at Rikers. How was that? How was your experience in prison? How's the food from a chef perspective?
link |
02:48:51.240
Not good, but Rikers was, when I got to Rikers, so I was arrested. I spent, I think about 10 days in a small town Tennessee jail. Pigeon Forge is also the weirdest place on earth.
link |
02:49:09.240
Is it a town?
link |
02:49:10.240
Yes, it's the town where I was arrested.
link |
02:49:12.240
Why is it so weird?
link |
02:49:14.240
In the film, I told them, I told them, you have to go to Pigeon Forge, you have to go there, you have to go there. And I think I was pushing them because it was going to potentially be the end of the season.
link |
02:49:26.240
It's like a summertime or it's a tourist destination. And it's so bizarre and weird and trippy that it doesn't even seem real.
link |
02:49:40.240
It seems like a carnival is happening there nonstop.
link |
02:49:42.240
Exactly. I think I say that in my intro, that it's carnivalesque and trippy and weird.
link |
02:49:50.240
Is there a lot of clowns walking around?
link |
02:49:53.240
Not necessarily clowns, but there is a video on YouTube that I, cause I got to the chapter where we arrive in Pigeon Forge and I'll never forget, although I have forgotten, but I remember being like weirdly, like felt like we were, had entered a different universe driving down the strip and just looking at everything on either side.
link |
02:50:16.240
And I'm wishing that I could remember in more detail, like the names of the places or what was there because I wanted to describe it in this chapter.
link |
02:50:24.240
And I was like, I wish somebody, I wish there was like a video of somebody going down the street, kind of showing what's on one side and then the other side.
link |
02:50:31.240
And I was like, there probably is, and there is on YouTube. Like I found it and I watched the whole thing.
link |
02:50:37.240
How does this come up from prison exactly?
link |
02:50:39.240
Pigeon.
link |
02:50:40.240
Oh, okay.
link |
02:50:41.240
Why did that spark?
link |
02:50:42.240
So that's the town that I went to jail in.
link |
02:50:44.240
Oh, right.
link |
02:50:46.240
In Tennessee.
link |
02:50:47.240
What was that like?
link |
02:50:48.240
The food there and some of the conditions, the food made, when I got to, then I was extradited and transferred to Rikers.
link |
02:50:58.240
And when I got to Rikers, I felt like it was like the four seasons in comparison.
link |
02:51:03.240
Wow.
link |
02:51:04.240
So, and I really kind of appreciated a lot of things about New York when I got to Rikers, even though there are a lot of things that are very scary about it.
link |
02:51:15.240
Where's Rikers located? Is it close to New York City?
link |
02:51:19.240
Yes. And in a very kind of almost poetically interesting way.
link |
02:51:25.240
The dorm room where I was when I was there for the three and a half months was one of the ones that faced Manhattan, so I could go across the room and look out the window and see the whole Manhattan skyline.
link |
02:51:37.240
Get a view.
link |
02:51:38.240
Which was.
link |
02:51:39.240
I remember being shocked by the cost per prisoner per year.
link |
02:51:47.240
Yes.
link |
02:51:48.240
That New York pays. It's like $400,000, $500,000 or something.
link |
02:51:53.240
I didn't think it was that much. I thought I wrote it down, but either way it is.
link |
02:51:56.240
No, I mean, it's elevated during COVID, which is fascinating to that the number I just said.
link |
02:52:04.240
Yeah. During COVID, I felt sick to my stomach thinking about people stuck there.
link |
02:52:09.240
And again, so Rikers isn't like a long term prison.
link |
02:52:12.240
It's most of the people at Rikers are awaiting trial and they've been arrested but not convicted.
link |
02:52:19.240
And then if you're convicted and you're sentenced to less than a year, then you put on a different color uniform and you go upstairs to different dorms.
link |
02:52:27.240
If you're convicted and sentenced to more than a year, you're sent to one of the upstate prisons.
link |
02:52:33.240
So most of the people at Rikers are there in transition. They've been arrested but not convicted or awaiting trial. So you could be perfectly innocent and you're stuck there and that happens to a lot of people.
link |
02:52:49.240
Or you could be arrested over some kind of comparatively petty thing or nonviolent thing and stuck there because you don't have as little as $500 to pay bail, which is completely messed up and unjust.
link |
02:53:07.240
And I think most people, most reasonable people agree that it's unjust. But it's different when you're there and you see those people and you see kind of the anguish.
link |
02:53:19.240
I mean, I have no idea if they're guilty of what. I mean, I usually don't know what people are there for or what the situation is, but you watch the sort of helplessness set in because you're kind of powerless there. You have very little contact with the outside world.
link |
02:53:37.240
You have these limited phone calls.
link |
02:53:39.240
And so for people who had kids and a job and an apartment, it's like one by one those things are lost or their kids are now being looked after by their abusive ex husband or something like that.
link |
02:53:50.240
And so watching that is just gut wrenching.
link |
02:53:53.240
And then also knowing that the only reason they're unable to get out is because of, you know, a thousand dollars, two thousand dollars, in some cases five hundred dollars. There were people. So there's all of these tragic cases.
link |
02:54:09.240
But then there was also while I was there, I mean, if I'd had any money, I would have been wanting to bail people out left and right.
link |
02:54:16.240
And then in some cases, I think there was a woman there snored really loud and her bail was five hundred dollars. And I was like, I wish I had a bail.
link |
02:54:26.240
She just wanted to bail her out. So because I'm pretty sensitive to sounds and being in a room with 50 people, inevitably.
link |
02:54:34.240
So you're in a room with a large number of people.
link |
02:54:37.240
Yeah, there are there are areas there with cells, but a lot of the areas there are rooms with 50 beds.
link |
02:54:48.240
So and there are about three feet apart from each other. So during covid, there was certainly no social distancing.
link |
02:54:55.240
And that just felt kind of sickening, especially because so many people are there for nonviolent things or drug addiction related or mental health issues.
link |
02:55:09.240
How did that, you personally, just having spent that time there for three and a half months, how did that change you? Like what did that have an effect on your mind?
link |
02:55:26.240
On my mind, personally, I think I was I was surprised at how well I adapted and then how I was able to.
link |
02:55:39.240
And then I think I sort of took it to the next level when one of the books somebody sent me was The Untethered Soul by Michael Singer.
link |
02:55:47.240
And it's very much about like observing your mind. And that kind of helped take it to the next level.
link |
02:55:55.240
So was this like a meditation retreat for you?
link |
02:55:58.240
Well, it's like it'd be like trying to meditate in the middle of a circus or in crazy circumstances because you're never alone.
link |
02:56:08.240
There's nowhere to be alone. And there's always talking, there's noises, there's fighting noises, chaos.
link |
02:56:15.240
Did you feel in danger? Yes, but I never I never felt terrified there.
link |
02:56:28.240
You know, one of my friends, the bathroom is the scary place because they don't have cameras in the in the bathroom.
link |
02:56:36.240
So that's sort of a one has to watch out there. And I did one of my friends who I one of the people I was friends with there, she did get beat up a bit in the bathroom one day.
link |
02:56:49.240
A lot of weird shit happened in the bathroom.
link |
02:56:54.240
But it was from a if you're interested in human behavior and psychology, and it's, it can be fascinating to kind of sit there and watch.
link |
02:57:06.240
You're saying like, you might enjoy prison for that perspective, like just you get to watch human nature.
link |
02:57:11.240
It's like, I don't want to say that it's worse, but like the full variety that it can take.
link |
02:57:17.240
Right. And there was a lot of beauty there as well.
link |
02:57:20.240
Was there love?
link |
02:57:21.240
People being well, again, depends on the definition of love, but people being, you know, incredibly generous and kind to each other.
link |
02:57:33.240
Sometimes people singing at night.
link |
02:57:38.240
There was just a lot of.
link |
02:57:41.240
And then there's a lot of, you know, hilarious stuff.
link |
02:57:44.240
It's just it's all there. There's like, there's tragic things. You know, interesting things.
link |
02:57:52.240
A lot of people with mental health issues, which is can be difficult to witness.
link |
02:57:58.240
So very different experience. I should ask you this, but somebody that's currently in prison.
link |
02:58:07.240
Ghislaine Maxwell, I believe she spent approximately 500 days in isolation.
link |
02:58:15.240
So it's a very difficult, different prison experience.
link |
02:58:20.240
But what do you think about her case? What do you think about her and Jeffrey Epstein?
link |
02:58:24.240
She, so her brother, her family, she says that she's a victim, not the monster.
link |
02:58:36.240
I think this is an especially fascinating case because and I've I have listened to podcasts about the Epstein situation.
link |
02:58:48.240
And there is one that was more focused on her by Vicki Ward that I would definitely listen to.
link |
02:58:55.240
Vicki Ward is a journalist.
link |
02:58:58.240
I think she'd written an article about Jeffrey Epstein for Vanity Fair.
link |
02:59:01.240
So she got to know Jeffrey Epstein and then she knew Ghislaine Maxwell from being sort of part of the social circle in which they would have overlapped.
link |
02:59:11.240
Have you, by the way, ever met them since this New York?
link |
02:59:15.240
Do you remember meeting this, you know, Jeffrey or Ghislaine?
link |
02:59:21.240
No, I never met them. But they're also very much like this sort of Upper East Side crowd.
link |
02:59:26.240
I did meet Harvey Weinstein once that made me have all kinds of interesting thoughts later.
link |
02:59:31.240
At the restaurant or elsewhere?
link |
02:59:32.240
No, it was weird. It was out on the street.
link |
02:59:36.240
And we had this really strange interaction. And knowing what I know now, it was eerie.
link |
02:59:43.240
And and also, like, had he contacted me after that and made it seem like he could have done something for me?
link |
02:59:50.240
Like, would I have been, you know, say he said, oh, I'm going to finance your whole expansion or something and like, come to my, you know, come meet me at this hotel.
link |
03:00:01.240
And then I go to that hotel and he's like, come up to the room. And then I would have been like, uh.
link |
03:00:05.240
And you're wondering whether you would have done it.
link |
03:00:09.240
Yes. And sadly, I think I would have. And so I felt a lot of compassion for those who, you know, didn't yell at him and leave or didn't storm out.
link |
03:00:25.240
And because I think what happens in those situations is, you know, there's all kinds of uncertainty in the moment and you sort of freeze and then you'll if I'm probably one of those people that would sit there and somehow in the moment.
link |
03:00:44.240
Without clarity, just instinctively feel like somehow I must have done something wrong and it's my fault. And I'm like, I led him on and are just being afraid.
link |
03:00:55.240
And then and then you don't know how to deal with it. And so you freeze.
link |
03:01:00.240
So I think that, you know, if you're somebody that maybe was raised differently or you have a lot of self confidence or you might have reacted differently and kind of pushed him away and stormed out.
link |
03:01:19.240
But I am probably not one of those people.
link |
03:01:22.240
But I did not ever meet Jeffrey Epstein, but he seems very straightforwardly, you know, just a classic, the way he was able to charm people, the way he could step into these roles.
link |
03:01:36.240
You know, I think he was teaching at Dalton and then just kind of the way he would get himself into the the academic crowd within Harvard and I think also MIT, right?
link |
03:01:47.240
Sort of. So he's playing a role, but he's doing it so well that he fools all these people.
link |
03:01:53.240
And and the things that people would in hindsight say about him are just the same things that people say about it's like you hear the same things over and over again.
link |
03:02:04.240
You hear the same thing said about those people who were taken in by Elizabeth Holmes is that they were like it was as if he was under a spell.
link |
03:02:12.240
It was as if I was under a spell is something you hear a lot.
link |
03:02:16.240
So it's like they have this powerful charm that's almost over.
link |
03:02:21.240
It's overwhelming in that they overwhelm your better judgment or they overwhelm your like normal, otherwise normally functioning capacity for rational thought.
link |
03:02:34.240
And they sort of overwhelm that with their charm.
link |
03:02:36.240
So, you know, when you look at I think it was like James Mattis invested a bunch of money with Elizabeth Holmes and all these people were involved with her and nobody really did their due diligence where they just sort of trusted her.
link |
03:02:49.240
And Jeffrey Epstein, I think it's still unclear where he got all of his money, but the guy Wexner, Les Wexner, who had, you know, an enormous amount of money and somehow very quickly turned over management of it to Jeffrey Epstein.
link |
03:03:06.240
And so people wonder, like, why would he do that? That's insane.
link |
03:03:09.240
And then other people have commented about that relationship like it was as if he was under Jeffrey's spell. You know, observers would say I couldn't understand it. It was as if he was under his spell.
link |
03:03:20.240
And so somebody observing me and Mr. Fox could have possibly said the same thing about me.
link |
03:03:26.240
But it's a bit different because it wasn't all charm.
link |
03:03:28.240
I think Epstein used his charm and then was probably very, very, very crafty and getting another thing that people like him do and cults do also is to get is to get you somehow compromised because then they've got you.
link |
03:03:44.240
So I think some kind of usually sex related.
link |
03:03:49.240
Yeah. And with Epstein, certainly, you know, he was known to have cameras everywhere. And so if he got any of these people on camera doing something compromising and all very powerful people, then he's got them.
link |
03:04:02.240
And I think he was also very smart to do that, to target people of both parties so that politically that he was able to maintain his power like no matter like nobody wanted him to be totally exposed because then people, a lot of people would be exposed.
link |
03:04:22.240
By the way, that part, you know, that's all kind of conspiracy, right?
link |
03:04:29.240
Right. We don't know that.
link |
03:04:31.240
I, so a lot of people believe that and, you know, I tend to kind of naturally believe that because it makes sense, but it's also possible that straight up with charisma.
link |
03:04:42.240
I mean, he did record people and there were recordings.
link |
03:04:45.240
So I listened to an interview with a woman who, I mean, was a girl back then.
link |
03:04:51.240
Maybe she was 15 or 16 back then. And subsequently, years later, was able to see some of the video of, I mean, I think it's a verifiable thing that there were video cameras all over his house.
link |
03:05:06.240
Yeah, the degree to which it was used.
link |
03:05:09.240
Right. We don't know that.
link |
03:05:11.240
And to the degree of how many people were involved and so on, there's all kinds of conspiracies around the man. But the question about her, Ghislaine.
link |
03:05:23.240
So I only know what I know from the inputs, which are the Vicky Ward. It's one of the podcasts. It's a narrative podcast. So it's like an audio kind of a documentary or journalistic piece that she did and put out.
link |
03:05:41.240
I thought it was really, really well done. I think it's called Chasing Ghislaine.
link |
03:05:46.240
And I listened to that whole thing. I didn't intend to listen to it all in one stretch.
link |
03:05:51.240
That's how you know it's good.
link |
03:05:52.240
I mean, it was like a weekend and I basically was, you know, cleaning and doing other things and walking Leon and listening to it. And I got through it pretty quickly.
link |
03:06:00.240
But I got really fascinated by it because I don't I don't know. But I think I feel like I find the whole situation gut wrenching because I think Jeffrey Epstein is a straight up like straight up sociopath, like no question with her.
link |
03:06:24.240
Everybody's calling her evil. And for her to have enabled and done a lot of the things that she did could potentially require.
link |
03:06:38.240
One might say that it could require a lack of empathy to be able to do those things knowingly.
link |
03:06:46.240
But at the same time, I think the information that was conveyed in the Vicki Ward piece was fascinating to me because it's clear that at the very least, it's like it's like all of these things could be true.
link |
03:07:01.240
She could maybe be not enough of a good person to have, you know, horribly victimized these young girls and destroy their lives.
link |
03:07:10.240
But she could have, I feel like I'm gonna get bashed for saying this, but she could have in some way of not quite known what she was doing or been a bit out of her mind.
link |
03:07:22.240
Like manipulating.
link |
03:07:23.240
Maybe not. I'm just saying people, I would hope that people would be open to that to exploring that as a possibility.
link |
03:07:31.240
Well, her family and friends are making that case. They're painting a broad picture of who she is as a human being and showing that she couldn't have done any of those things without being like systematically manipulated.
link |
03:07:51.240
That's right. What I listened to in that podcast about her relationship with her father, how her father died, her things about her childhood, and then Epstein coming into her life and basically kind of pushing all those buttons and becoming like the father figure.
link |
03:08:12.240
And so she would be in a position of kind of always wanting his approval. And just the way that things that are described about the way that she like was so subservient to him in this kind of astonishing way that seems really weird and abnormal.
link |
03:08:36.240
And yet I think she had a lot of money and connections and I think she lost the money but had all the connections. Either way, there was a ton that Epstein gained via his relationship with her, like a ton.
link |
03:08:51.240
So it makes sense that he would have manipulated her. He manipulates everybody. So without question, I think one could argue he definitely manipulated her.
link |
03:09:02.240
And again, I want to be careful not to be saying that's an excuse for what she did. I just think that it's important to explore these things and be open to them as opposed to just like broad brush painting her as a horrible person.
link |
03:09:21.240
Because people could say that based on things they've read or things that I did that like I'm a horrible person. And it's very different because what she did involved young girls whose lives were destroyed.
link |
03:09:38.240
But I think that people could be a bit open to understanding how somebody could be manipulated. There's a psychologist that I'm friends with that I got to know after I watched him on Leah Remini's show.
link |
03:09:58.240
So Leah Remini is the actress who was in Scientology, got out and has really been speaking out about it and trying to expose what they're all about and how diabolical that organization is.
link |
03:10:10.240
And a lot of people are exposing them and doing this type of work. And so she had this guy on her show who was in The Moonies and his name is Steve Haasen. And so he was in a cult and then he got out again by extreme circumstances.
link |
03:10:29.240
He got in a car accident and almost died. And that's what ended up getting him out of the cult that he was in. But really smart guy, was targeted when he was young, got pulled into The Moonies.
link |
03:10:41.240
But watching this interview of him on her show, he's talking about his experience and he said, if they had told me to kill somebody, I would have. And in that moment made me cry. But I also felt like I understand that.
link |
03:10:59.240
And not that if Mr. Fox had told me to kill somebody, I don't think I would have. But again, I understand how it could get to that point. So that makes me feel like with her, like I would be curious what Steve Haasen would think, kind of analyzing the entire situation.
link |
03:11:17.240
Because it's hard to understand that unless you've been in it. And I understand with him how he could have said that. If they had told me to kill somebody, I would have. That's pretty intense. I mean, that's pretty extreme.
link |
03:11:29.240
And it's interesting how you can get into it, how far you can go just one day at a time, like gradually. Just like the frog in the boiling water. So fascinating.
link |
03:11:42.240
I mean, all of these cases are fascinating, like Patty Hearst, that whole story.
link |
03:11:46.240
Well, I'm just also, I just, it's already a while ago, reread The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. I've been reading a lot about Hitler and Goebbels for a long time working on a series about Hitler and the Third Reich.
link |
03:12:05.240
Because for me, it's like returning. So much of my family was destroyed or impacted by this time in history. That is somehow a way to find out more about myself is going back to that time.
link |
03:12:24.240
Have you ever thought about inherited trauma?
link |
03:12:28.240
This sounds not to mock people, but this sounds like a thing that...
link |
03:12:39.240
Like a woke thing?
link |
03:12:41.240
Like a woke thing, yeah.
link |
03:12:43.240
I don't mean it that way at all, but I get it because sometimes now when I say, now I almost have to put air quotes when I say something's triggering because I feel like I'm using a word that's now like overused or used in less serious. So now when I say something's triggering, it's like, I use air quotes.
link |
03:13:02.240
Yeah, it's funny because good words get taken up and then they get destroyed.
link |
03:13:06.240
Or overusing gaslighting. And I worry that that would happen with sociopathy. I think people need to understand sociopathy. I think it's critical for humanity that people understand it.
link |
03:13:17.240
Yeah, so just because you're being an asshole doesn't mean you're a sociopath.
link |
03:13:20.240
Doesn't mean you're a sociopath, exactly. And I feel like it's going to be this thing where now everybody's going to start calling everybody else a sociopath and it's like, ugh. And right now everybody calls everything gaslighting. If somebody's lying, it's not gaslighting.
link |
03:13:31.240
We started talking about, I already forgot, fluff? Is it fluff? It's fluff, right?
link |
03:13:36.240
Fluff, yeah.
link |
03:13:37.240
Okay, so that was great. That's a new discovery for me. Let's talk about food a little bit, if we can.
link |
03:13:46.240
You know what, let's talk about restaurants first. That's the fascinating part of the story before anything else, which is opening an exceptionally successful restaurant in NYC, New York City.
link |
03:14:00.240
What does that take? What does it take to open up from the very beginning, from the idea stage to the launching it, both the finances and the skill of actually getting people super excited by it, and then running it, all that chaos.
link |
03:14:16.240
I mean, to me, am I over romanticizing, but it seems like New York City is a really tough place to launch a restaurant in.
link |
03:14:24.240
Well, I think because it's extremely competitive and the standards are so high. So I think that's why there are so many good restaurants in New York, because if they're not good, they're not going to survive.
link |
03:14:38.240
So even like you could walk into what looks like a hole in the wall and it's going to have amazing food. That happens a lot.
link |
03:14:47.240
So what was the menu? Was it vegan and raw from the beginning?
link |
03:14:52.240
Yeah, it was.
link |
03:14:54.240
And raw means what?
link |
03:14:55.240
Now I'm getting thrown back to all the interviews I did when people asked me these questions. It was so long ago.
link |
03:15:00.240
What's it like being vegan?
link |
03:15:03.240
Nothing was cooked over roughly 118 degrees. There were people who are hardcore raw foodists, and there's also people who are hardcore vegans, and I was never any of those things. So I think what we did –
link |
03:15:23.240
You weren't the hardcore part?
link |
03:15:24.240
Yeah.
link |
03:15:25.240
No, you weren't. But what parts of your life where you're a vegan? Are you still a vegan? Do you eat meat? Are you a vegetarian? Are you raw?
link |
03:15:37.240
Good question. I don't apply labels. So none of those labels would apply because it's –
link |
03:15:43.240
Male and female. I'm beyond those labels myself as well. But I'm a carnivore most of the time. There you go. It's the opposite of vegan, unfortunately. But no judgment. I think that's a beautiful thing to be is vegan.
link |
03:16:01.240
Likewise. I think that it's people who are very adamantly one way or the other. I think that after all my years in this world and in this world in general and also consuming an enormous amount of inputs and podcasts about health, like I love listening to different points of view.
link |
03:16:23.240
So I love when somebody's arguing vegan and then somebody's arguing carnivore. Or even with other issues, I like listening to what other people – opposing sides, assuming they're both intelligent, interesting sources.
link |
03:16:36.240
Especially when they're – I love it when they're sort of really testing that diet, meaning they're athletes or in some way really testing it. Not just vaguely saying what's healthy or not for you, but really what is life like under this particular diet?
link |
03:16:53.240
Yeah. And I think that probably everybody's different. And so in the same way that some people tolerate – like some people can't tolerate nightshades or some people can't tolerate certain spices or some people can't tolerate gluten or some people thrive off of this or that.
link |
03:17:10.240
And I've heard it said and discussed that there's a great deal to sort of what your body's used to, what your ancestors ate, where – because it seems like the human body is pretty adaptable.
link |
03:17:24.240
So you can adapt to eating a certain type of a food so that if your family comes from a certain part of the world where certain things aren't grown or more meat is eaten or – because there's people who are vegan their entire lives and they're incredibly healthy and they thrive.
link |
03:17:44.240
And there's athletes and there's people like Rich Roll who I like who's vegan and an athlete, but it might be something where that's working really well for him, but it wouldn't work well for somebody else.
link |
03:17:56.240
And I think there's also an element of people who try these things and then feel really good or feel really bad and they make a conclusion based on that initial period of time when it might be something where it makes you feel really good temporarily,
link |
03:18:11.240
but then over time you're gonna be depleted of certain things. And then we also live in a world where like our soil is depleted and there's a lot of processing that takes out of foods, a lot of things that we need.
link |
03:18:23.240
So I just think that there's no kind of one right answer. You can look at it from just a health perspective and then you can also look at it from like a morality and ethics perspective and then also like what's the impact on the environment and all those things are important.
link |
03:18:39.240
And I think that I've watched a lot of films and things and for a while right after that I might think, oh my God, I can't believe I ate this thing last week and now I'm gonna go back to being 100% vegan because I just watched this thing and it's fresh in my mind and now I'm thinking about it in a certain way.
link |
03:18:56.240
But then over time that sort of fades and then you start to get a bit more loose. And for me, I will end up eating a lot of things that aren't vegan usually in the context where I'm not adding to the consumption of it.
link |
03:19:17.240
So like at Rikers, most of the meat there was kind of weird and fake but there was like a chicken every Thursday and Sunday there was actual chicken, like the leg.
link |
03:19:32.240
Was that the most exciting thing for people?
link |
03:19:34.240
Oh yeah, oh and then the most fights broke out on chicken day because there was like heightened.
link |
03:19:38.240
Thursday and Sunday you said?
link |
03:19:39.240
Yeah.
link |
03:19:40.240
Chicken day.
link |
03:19:41.240
So that was the most real meat you're getting is the chicken.
link |
03:19:45.240
Yeah, a lot of the rest of it.
link |
03:19:47.240
Chicken breast or white or dark meat?
link |
03:19:50.240
Dark is the leg and the thigh. And it was cooked surprisingly well. And so I would always eat it. I mean, it's there and it's not, from a health perspective, one could say, well, that's probably the shittiest of the shitty chickens that are full of antibiotics and hormones and terrible things.
link |
03:20:10.240
So it's not optimal from that point of view. But it's like if it's otherwise going to be thrown in the trash, then.
link |
03:20:19.240
Yeah, you're not adding to it.
link |
03:20:20.240
Right. Or, you know, like I've been drunk at a party and eaten a bunch of stuff that one would think I would never eat.
link |
03:20:27.240
Yeah.
link |
03:20:28.240
But it's not like I ran to the store and bought it or went to a restaurant and ordered it.
link |
03:20:31.240
No, I'm the same. Liquor makes me eat things I shouldn't be eating. Or maybe should. As you wrote me in the email, life is complicated and fascinating and so is our decisions when we're drunk.
link |
03:20:47.240
I actually am a big fan of 7 Eleven. I go there sometimes late at night to think about life, and I'll eat whatever the stuff they have.
link |
03:20:58.240
I also think it's fascinating how our bodies intuitively know if you're quiet enough and you think about what you're craving.
link |
03:21:06.240
As long as it's not like if you're craving some processed junky food, that's probably something that's not quite functional.
link |
03:21:14.240
Sometimes I'll be like, I must have avocado, or I'll want to eat an entire parsley salad. And then it's happened. I went through a phase where, and here I'm like, do I say this out loud? I went through a phase of—
link |
03:21:29.240
Are you going to say it?
link |
03:21:30.240
I know, now I have to say it—where I couldn't get enough, I don't know where it started, like whose house I was at or whatever, but grass fed butter. I could tell that my body wanted whatever was there.
link |
03:21:47.240
I suppose I could have investigated it and thought, well, what's in there? Is it vitamin K, vitamin D? What is it in the grass fed butter? Because it wasn't regular butter. Ew, no. But this grass fed butter, I felt like I just wanted, I needed it.
link |
03:22:01.240
So there's probably something in there, and maybe I could have gone and just taken a lot of vitamin K and then not eaten the butter.
link |
03:22:08.240
There is something in there that's fascinating. I had that last night, actually, with, I went to a grocery store and I had a craving for tomatoes. I was like, what the hell is this? Like, what? It was weird.
link |
03:22:22.240
You should listen to that and then just get a bunch of tomatoes, because there's probably something in there.
link |
03:22:26.240
It was like, it felt right.
link |
03:22:29.240
When I was little, my mother—no, but that's exactly what I was saying, is that somehow your body knows without you knowing.
link |
03:22:35.240
And today, I have zero interest in tomatoes.
link |
03:22:38.240
Yeah. Did you eat the tomatoes, though?
link |
03:22:40.240
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
link |
03:22:41.240
Okay, well then you probably—
link |
03:22:42.240
I ate way too many, but that's all right. Or maybe not enough. There you go. So yeah, what you were saying?
link |
03:22:49.240
Anyway, I think these things shift and change, and there's not a right answer. And then there's something where it's like one person might do well on something, another person doesn't. Or you might do well on something for—maybe if I ate a bunch of liver, I'd feel better because I'm getting vitamins that I'm lacking.
link |
03:23:10.240
But then once I get them, I'm fine, and I don't need that anymore. And I could potentially get those from other sources. But yeah, when I was little, I used to crave—my mother said I craved—not craved, but she said I would always eat sardines, but I wouldn't eat the pieces.
link |
03:23:28.240
I would only eat the whole ones, which have the bones in them.
link |
03:23:31.240
And I used to chew on chicken bones and try to eat eggshells when I was little. So I think all of those things have calcium and other minerals in common, so there's probably something there that I needed. Because you'd think as a little kid, I wouldn't be drawn to oily fish and bones and eggshells.
link |
03:23:51.240
Yeah, it's interesting because you're saying the explanation for the craving is probably the nutrients you're getting. But when you're imagining the craving, you're not obviously imagining the nutrients, you're imagining the texture, the taste, the feel, a lot of the things that we actually experience as we're eating. That's our brain probably tricking us.
link |
03:24:11.240
Right, but do you love tomatoes?
link |
03:24:14.240
Well, I think we determine that love is impossible to define.
link |
03:24:20.240
Are you extremely fond of—do you think tomatoes are one of the most delicious foods?
link |
03:24:25.240
No, no, but maybe—
link |
03:24:26.240
But yet you crave them.
link |
03:24:27.240
Maybe it's generational because it's a big Russian thing with potatoes and tomatoes because it's good with vodka salted.
link |
03:24:36.240
We were talking about the menu in the early days of the restaurant in New York. So what was on the menu? What kind of foods were you playing with? Do you remember—was that one of the challenging things is putting together—because you're crafting a new thing in New York where it's extremely competitive.
link |
03:24:58.240
Right. Well, over time, it got easier and easier. And then also I wasn't coming up with new dishes. It was the people that worked there. So I feel like if I could take credit for something, it would be recognizing talent. And when dishes were developed, this is when I was on my own.
link |
03:25:17.240
So it was opened with Matthew and Jeffrey. And then within a year, Matthew was out and Jeffrey was still involved as like the corporate sort of side of it.
link |
03:25:29.240
But then over time, I separated from that infrastructure as well and then was completely on my own.
link |
03:25:37.240
And in part, I did that because I was growing One Lucky Duck on the side and that was growing and growing and growing. And I knew there was something there. And yet the two businesses were completely intertwined.
link |
03:25:48.240
And so potential investors would come at me and they would see this very messy situation where I owned One Lucky Duck and Jeffrey Chatterot owned the restaurant. And how do we move forward from there?
link |
03:26:00.240
And then people would say I should shut down the restaurant and just focus on One Lucky Duck. And I wanted them all to be together under one umbrella and to move forward where everybody's incentives were aligned.
link |
03:26:11.240
What was the magic? Why was it so successful so quickly, would you say?
link |
03:26:15.240
I want to half jokingly, but not joking, but sort of say that it was about the love and the food and the space.
link |
03:26:23.240
Can you define love?
link |
03:26:26.240
But there was something special. So when people ask me about opening a restaurant, I say I don't want to get back into the restaurant business unless it's the same restaurant in the same space.
link |
03:26:36.240
Because there was something about that space that felt, I guess, felt magical, for lack of a better word, and the energy of a lot of the people there.
link |
03:26:49.240
And I think that people really cared about it. And so for whatever reason, there was an energy about the place.
link |
03:26:58.240
Would you ever do it again?
link |
03:27:00.240
Yes.
link |
03:27:01.240
Would you ever consider reopening?
link |
03:27:02.240
In the same space.
link |
03:27:03.240
Wow. That's a tough thing in New York, but you're thinking, okay, well.
link |
03:27:10.240
It's there.
link |
03:27:11.240
It's there?
link |
03:27:12.240
Let me ask you this question, because I've been searching for that myself, asking myself this question, the last meal question.
link |
03:27:20.240
What's the best meal you've ever eaten in your life?
link |
03:27:25.240
If I had to murder you at the end of this and you get one meal, but you can travel anywhere in the world, what would you eat?
link |
03:27:35.240
It's one of those questions where I feel like I should have an answer prepared.
link |
03:27:40.240
It's too difficult to sort of pick favorites, but if somebody would force you to choose, you'd have to.
link |
03:27:49.240
I was eating something once and I had the thought that if I was going to die, I would come here and order plate after plate of this and eat this.
link |
03:27:58.240
Do you remember what it was?
link |
03:27:59.240
Yes.
link |
03:28:00.240
Some diner in the middle of nowhere?
link |
03:28:01.240
No, it was Pure Food and Wine was on Irving Place and then the kitchen connected to the One Lucky Duck juice bar, which had an entrance on 17th Street.
link |
03:28:12.240
So it was kind of like this L shape.
link |
03:28:13.240
And then there was a huge garden in the back.
link |
03:28:15.240
On the corner was Casamono and Bar Jamon, which was Mario Batali and Joe Bastianich were behind that.
link |
03:28:24.240
And it was very focused on meat, but also like organ meats and strange, unusual meats.
link |
03:28:30.240
Spanish restaurant.
link |
03:28:31.240
Wow, lots of good reviews.
link |
03:28:32.240
Yeah, it was really good.
link |
03:28:34.240
This is just a funny that we surrounded it, but Bar Jamon was this tiny little bar.
link |
03:28:41.240
And I went in there once with Tobin late and I don't know why we ended up going there, but it was right before they closed and drank red wine and they had tomato bread.
link |
03:28:54.240
And it's just like a baguette, although it's a Spanish or whatever.
link |
03:29:00.240
It's like a bread, like a baguette, like a thin that they toast.
link |
03:29:03.240
And I think they rub it with garlic and they don't even put tomato slices on it.
link |
03:29:07.240
It's like they rub it and the tomato juice is all over it.
link |
03:29:11.240
It was just bread and tomato juice and probably some garlic flavor and really good salt and some wine and red wine.
link |
03:29:20.240
And we sat there and ordered a plate, ate it, ordered another one, ate it, ordered another one.
link |
03:29:25.240
I think we had like six plates.
link |
03:29:27.240
And I remember sitting there thinking I could just eat this until my stomach bursts.
link |
03:29:32.240
And then, and so if this is like, if somebody was like, what's the last, I would just want to sit there and eat plate after plate.
link |
03:29:39.240
I think if you went back there and ate the same thing, it wouldn't taste nearly as good.
link |
03:29:42.240
And like, was there something magical about that night, about the way that bread was made on that night, the way you felt at that night, the wine, the something?
link |
03:29:56.240
Or do you think like, where's the power from that food come from?
link |
03:30:00.240
Is it the food itself or is it the environment?
link |
03:30:04.240
I'm sure it's both, but like if somebody brought a plate of it here right now, it would be completely delicious.
link |
03:30:11.240
But it might not feel as kind of, not that it felt magical, but it was the whole warmth of the experience and the red wine.
link |
03:30:22.240
It's the afternoon in Texas right now, so it's different.
link |
03:30:25.240
I keep forgetting and thinking it's late at night.
link |
03:30:28.240
Yeah, we're surrounded by, this whole place is anti Huberman.
link |
03:30:33.240
There's no light.
link |
03:30:35.240
Well, it's pro Huberman if it's in the afternoon or the evening, except for these bright lights.
link |
03:30:41.240
If they were lower down, if they were like down below, then they're hitting the tops of our eyes.
link |
03:30:47.240
But it's the light coming from above that's destructive at night because it's hitting the bottom of your eyes.
link |
03:30:52.240
So it's like mimicking the sun, which is signaling your body that it's time to be awake.
link |
03:30:57.240
So as much as possible.
link |
03:30:59.240
So I do this in the evenings.
link |
03:31:00.240
I shut off all the overhead lights.
link |
03:31:02.240
I try to dim the lights as much as I can, and I turn on like a lamp versus an overhead light.
link |
03:31:08.240
Are you also doing the caffeine thing, like not consuming much caffeine way before bed?
link |
03:31:14.240
Oh, I can't.
link |
03:31:15.240
Yeah, I usually don't have caffeine late.
link |
03:31:20.240
I try not to have it.
link |
03:31:21.240
I drink into the night.
link |
03:31:24.240
2 p.m. would be my last.
link |
03:31:26.240
Ideally, I wouldn't drink coffee after two, but plenty of times I do.
link |
03:31:30.240
Especially if I haven't had midday coffee, then I worry I'm going to get a headache.
link |
03:31:34.240
That makes you way more responsible than me.
link |
03:31:36.240
Let me return to love.
link |
03:31:40.240
What do you think makes for a good romantic relationship, given your experience?
link |
03:31:52.240
I mean this question.
link |
03:31:53.240
I think a mutual respect is a big part of it.
link |
03:31:56.240
Mutual respect.
link |
03:31:58.240
That's interesting.
link |
03:31:59.240
Well, and understanding it in a way that you want what's best for the other person, not in a way that you would sacrifice yourself for them necessarily, but in a very healthy way.
link |
03:32:13.240
So I think a healthy relationship is where you want what's best for the other person.
link |
03:32:17.240
So I always find it tragic.
link |
03:32:20.240
Like say you started dating somebody who then would get jealous or upset if you spent too much time working on something, right?
link |
03:32:31.240
But that's like your life.
link |
03:32:33.240
So if you're working on some robotics thing and you're having some breakthrough and so you just want to spend a lot of time wherever you spend a lot of time doing those things, and then that other person got all bent out of shape and it became like a competition.
link |
03:32:47.240
That to me seems very unhealthy because if somebody, if it was like a genuine healthy love, she would want you to be doing those things.
link |
03:33:02.240
Yeah, that's a good observation.
link |
03:33:04.240
To me, I think the way to achieve that is actually, or the easiest way to achieve that, at least for me, is actually legitimately be excited by the things the other person is excited by.
link |
03:33:20.240
So like not in some generic sense, it's good for them to be doing the robotics thing.
link |
03:33:26.240
It's more like you become a fan of all the cool things that they're doing in their life.
link |
03:33:34.240
Somebody told me recently, there's a term for this, but I love watching other people succeed, be excited about shit.
link |
03:33:48.240
I like celebrating other people.
link |
03:33:50.240
It's fun for me to watch people do the thing they love doing.
link |
03:33:53.240
So in some sense, that's reinvigorating to me and exciting to me.
link |
03:33:59.240
And so one of the things for me in a relationship is you get excited by watching another person do the thing they're excited about.
link |
03:34:07.240
It's not like I intellectually know it's good for them to have their own thing.
link |
03:34:11.240
It's like I legit get excited by their own thing.
link |
03:34:16.240
Right, but that's what I mean.
link |
03:34:18.240
It's like that person would be excited because you're excited.
link |
03:34:23.240
But I think the easiest way to achieve that is actually be like, what am I trying to say?
link |
03:34:28.240
It's not like saying that you should be excited.
link |
03:34:32.240
It's like you can't help yourself but be excited.
link |
03:34:35.240
Right, but I think that's possible.
link |
03:34:37.240
It's possible for that to be the case for somebody that might have an appreciation for what you're doing, but that's not what that person is going to go spend their time on themselves.
link |
03:34:53.240
Yeah, they were by themselves.
link |
03:34:54.240
Right, so the other person might be really good at a musical instrument that requires a lot of practice, and you're not interested in playing that musical instrument.
link |
03:35:02.240
But you appreciate the beauty of the music and understand that that person is getting something out of it.
link |
03:35:07.240
So you would be excited when they get a chance to practice or whatnot.
link |
03:35:11.240
Do you think love should be simple or complicated in a relationship?
link |
03:35:18.240
Well, it might be inherently complicated.
link |
03:35:21.240
I may have asked Huberman the exact same question.
link |
03:35:25.240
I forget what he said.
link |
03:35:27.240
I thought it was interesting when you asked Elon about love.
link |
03:35:30.240
Oh, boy, yeah.
link |
03:35:32.240
That's going to be conversation number like seven that he actually answers it.
link |
03:35:39.240
Well, what was interesting that I found admirable was this sort of like a duty to humanity.
link |
03:35:46.240
I think you asked about it not in a person but about the work.
link |
03:35:52.240
And so it was like to put all this energy to try to kind of like move things forward, knowing that he will probably die before it gets there.
link |
03:36:04.240
You're talking about like something related to the science of rocketry.
link |
03:36:10.240
Yeah, he's kind of a rocket scientist.
link |
03:36:13.240
But whatever you were asking him about whether something could be accomplished, and he said yes, but not in his lifetime.
link |
03:36:19.240
But he's going to keep pushing it forward anyway.
link |
03:36:21.240
So I felt like that was a really, you know, to put so much of yourself into something just to kind of move the baton forward for humanity was a struck me as an admirable thing.
link |
03:36:35.240
You know, there's no great reward in terms of you're going to, you know, you're going to see that invention happen or you're going to see Mars colonized or whatever it is.
link |
03:36:46.240
But you're willing to put in all the work and brainpower to try to push it along.
link |
03:36:52.240
Like thinking about the biggest possible impact on the world.
link |
03:36:55.240
Just thinking about humanity.
link |
03:36:57.240
I think all of us, when we do cool things, are contributing to humanity.
link |
03:37:01.240
And it's good to think of it that way.
link |
03:37:04.240
When you run a restaurant and you make all the people happy, I don't know, that's part of that.
link |
03:37:09.240
It's good to think big like that.
link |
03:37:12.240
And Elon does definitely.
link |
03:37:14.240
When I asked him about love, you know, just knowing him personally now, I'm asking about the personal question about love.
link |
03:37:24.240
But I'm giving him the freedom to escape it, which he always does.
link |
03:37:28.240
That's very generous.
link |
03:37:31.240
Because I don't want to trap him.
link |
03:37:33.240
I understand it's a difficult.
link |
03:37:35.240
So, you know, he's better at solving engineering problems than talking about love.
link |
03:37:39.240
The other thing he's really good at is going to the joke.
link |
03:37:44.240
So for him, you know, for him, love and all those kinds of things, especially those kind of cliché sounding things, are the stuff of memes.
link |
03:37:59.240
It's the stuff, the easiest way you can talk about it is humor.
link |
03:38:02.240
The same with trauma, like personal trauma, the easiest stuff for him to talk about is laugh about it.
link |
03:38:08.240
He's been very tough privately or on podcasts to talk about personal, like difficult stuff.
link |
03:38:18.240
And for me, obviously, that's often the most interesting stuff as humans, like, where's your darkness?
link |
03:38:24.240
You know, but for him, it's tough.
link |
03:38:28.240
For a lot of people, it's tough.
link |
03:38:29.240
But it's important to go there.
link |
03:38:31.240
Maybe first in the privacy of your mind.
link |
03:38:35.240
And I think, you know, bringing it back to the relationship thing is wanting to.
link |
03:38:41.240
Like, understand and accept those things about somebody else, I mean, sort of cliche to say that you can't change somebody.
link |
03:38:51.240
And you don't want to also, like, try to change yourself for somebody, but you can sort of figure things out and be willing to make adjustments and navigate for the sake of something working.
link |
03:39:05.240
And sometimes that comes from understanding, which might require a lot of effort and open mindedness if somebody is kind of very different from you.
link |
03:39:17.240
Yeah, and being fragile yourself, revealing your flaws and getting to learn about theirs and getting to see the beauty in them.
link |
03:39:26.240
Because that's the good stuff.
link |
03:39:29.240
Or if the flaws are too much of a red flag, then you walk away.
link |
03:39:33.240
That's the hard stuff.
link |
03:39:34.240
Either the red flags might be the thing that you actually get to love deeply because they're a flawed human, or it might be the reason to walk away quickly.
link |
03:39:44.240
And you don't know.
link |
03:39:46.240
It's a gamble.
link |
03:39:48.240
If it's a red flag, then it, by definition, is something that's telling you to walk away.
link |
03:39:52.240
If it was just, like, something about their character that's challenging, you could appreciate that or understand it.
link |
03:40:01.240
But it's not something that, like, they're intentionally trying to use to deceive you.
link |
03:40:06.240
I think red flags, I guess it's more about, like, manipulation and or, like, somebody's kind of extreme dysfunction or something would be red flags.
link |
03:40:16.240
But I think there could be things that are quirky or weird or even dark about somebody that are acceptable.
link |
03:40:26.240
Yeah, but they might look like red flags.
link |
03:40:28.240
If there's someone crying on the subway, that's a red flag for me.
link |
03:40:35.240
That she might be, like, an emotional basket case, an eye maintenance crazy person.
link |
03:40:39.240
Yeah, that's true.
link |
03:40:41.240
But, you know, it could also be, there could be a deeper story to it.
link |
03:40:44.240
So that's what I'm trying to tell you.
link |
03:40:47.240
That's true.
link |
03:40:48.240
All right.
link |
03:40:49.240
What advice would you give to young folks today if they want to launch a restaurant in New York City and then message somebody on Twitter?
link |
03:40:58.240
I was, before you finished the sentence, I was about to say read a lot of books.
link |
03:41:03.240
But then you said, because you said what advice would you give to young people today?
link |
03:41:07.240
And I was like, read a lot of books.
link |
03:41:09.240
Yeah.
link |
03:41:10.240
And then you got to the restaurant part.
link |
03:41:12.240
Yeah.
link |
03:41:13.240
No, I mean, I was joking about the restaurants.
link |
03:41:15.240
Yeah, about life, I would say.
link |
03:41:17.240
Not just about career as a restaurateur, but just in life, how to be successful, how to be, how to live a life that can be fulfilling and how to live a life they can be proud of.
link |
03:41:31.240
So read a lot of books.
link |
03:41:33.240
It's complicated because –
link |
03:41:34.240
Have you figured it out yet?
link |
03:41:35.240
No.
link |
03:41:36.240
But I think self awareness is key, but I also think there's some of those things where, like, people kind of have to learn their own lessons.
link |
03:41:46.240
But I think in part because I never had kids and I never wanted kids, I feel like through my book, I keep thinking that I want a lot of the lessons that I learned to be useful to other people, particularly younger people, and in many cases, younger females, to maybe understand themselves a little better along the way.
link |
03:42:12.240
Because I think that a lot of mistakes that I made and things that happened or things that I did that I'm embarrassed about or things that I stepped into that I wouldn't have otherwise stepped into or allowed to happen were a result of, in many cases, like insecurity, like a lack of confidence.
link |
03:42:35.240
And I think in the context of moving forward with relationships, being really careful to understand why you're there or if you're repeating a pattern, that's something that is sort of cliche, but I feel like it's very – I mean, cliches are things that are true.
link |
03:42:57.240
They're just repeated a lot.
link |
03:42:58.240
But anyway, the idea that people repeat patterns, right?
link |
03:43:03.240
Yes.
link |
03:43:04.240
I think that's very true.
link |
03:43:06.240
Right.
link |
03:43:07.240
And so to be aware of that and to figure it out sooner rather than later so you don't keep stepping into the same thing over and over again.
link |
03:43:16.240
You mentioned sort of giving yourself time and space to think.
link |
03:43:22.240
Yeah, which sometimes isn't possible.
link |
03:43:24.240
Don't let momentum of life sort of carry you away.
link |
03:43:27.240
Right. And I think for me, one of the things that would have scared me about having kids is the chaos of it or not being able to handle it.
link |
03:43:38.240
But I think that's just me, not most people.
link |
03:43:41.240
You ran a restaurant.
link |
03:43:43.240
I know. But just probably why I would go home at night and lie on the floor and cry or –
link |
03:43:49.240
How often do you do that?
link |
03:43:52.240
Do you like a good cry?
link |
03:43:55.240
I do.
link |
03:43:56.240
Music usually or – can you paint a scene?
link |
03:44:01.240
Just in general?
link |
03:44:03.240
Yeah, is there candles?
link |
03:44:04.240
I cried this morning.
link |
03:44:05.240
Okay.
link |
03:44:06.240
Not intentionally, not for long.
link |
03:44:07.240
Happiness or just overwhelmed?
link |
03:44:09.240
It was like a – I looked a little bit at Instagram and saw – what was it?
link |
03:44:18.240
Very often they're like these little animal rescue stories or whatever, but this was this guy Matt who used to be my trainer years ago and put this little montage video to music.
link |
03:44:30.240
That was interesting.
link |
03:44:31.240
If there hadn't been music, I probably wouldn't have cried.
link |
03:44:33.240
But it was showing his wife having their second child, not showing it, but like the sort of before and then the baby in her arms right afterwards and then bringing the baby home.
link |
03:44:45.240
It was a very short little clip, but set to music.
link |
03:44:48.240
Yeah.
link |
03:44:49.240
And I watched that and started to cry.
link |
03:44:51.240
But like I didn't sob or anything, so I think I cry easily.
link |
03:44:59.240
Interestingly though, in actual horrifically tragic things or when they apply to me, I might not cry and then people find that unusual.
link |
03:45:10.240
I remember in the film that – I don't know if it was my sister or my father described that when my parents got divorced, I didn't cry and I just – whereas my sister bawled her eyes out and I didn't cry at all ever and I just didn't say anything or want to talk about it.
link |
03:45:28.240
When I was sentenced to jail, I didn't cry.
link |
03:45:33.240
So a lot of times when something really big happens, I get a little bit weirdly – I don't know.
link |
03:45:42.240
But very often –
link |
03:45:43.240
It's too much to feel it all directly.
link |
03:45:46.240
So you kind of cry it out later slowly.
link |
03:45:50.240
Right.
link |
03:45:51.240
Maybe years later.
link |
03:45:52.240
Maybe years later.
link |
03:45:53.240
Yeah.
link |
03:45:54.240
And maybe that's what I'm really crying about when I cry at these little videos or something.
link |
03:45:57.240
I don't know.
link |
03:45:58.240
But I'm glad for it because I feel like it always feels like kind of a relief.
link |
03:46:03.240
Well, let me ask this because it's interesting what you would say.
link |
03:46:08.240
Do you have regrets about things in your life?
link |
03:46:15.240
Like what do you regret?
link |
03:46:16.240
If there's one day you could live again, which day would you pick?
link |
03:46:23.240
Like relive and make different choices?
link |
03:46:27.240
Well, like one obvious thing could be the day that I let Anthony Strangers in the door.
link |
03:46:33.240
If I had instead – if at any time early on I had instead just pushed him out, that my life would be wildly different.
link |
03:46:43.240
It's hard to –
link |
03:46:45.240
So that's the biggest mistake of your life, you would say, just letting Anthony into your life?
link |
03:46:52.240
I think – yes.
link |
03:46:53.240
I think one could argue that's the biggest mistake.
link |
03:46:55.240
But then at the same time you never know because like when I – I was in a sort of a dark relationship that then led to the restaurant.
link |
03:47:07.240
Am I having the One Lucky Duck brand?
link |
03:47:09.240
So I felt like that darkness – it's like if you married a horribly abusive person but you had a beautiful child and then you go on and you have this beautiful child and you think,
link |
03:47:19.240
well, if I hadn't been with that horribly abusive person, I wouldn't have this beautiful child.
link |
03:47:23.240
So I wouldn't go undo it.
link |
03:47:24.240
So I feel like a lot of things are like that.
link |
03:47:26.240
And I guess I could optimistically hope that there are good things down the road where I'll think,
link |
03:47:33.240
well, I'm here and I'm grateful for it and therefore I'm grateful for the things that got me here, which include a lot of dark things.
link |
03:47:41.240
It's hard to say because a lot of people were hurt in my case, but I am optimistic that I can make those things up.
link |
03:47:48.240
And there are also hurts that were – I mean in some cases emotionally but also very much financial.
link |
03:47:56.240
And I feel like those are numbers and the employees were all paid back.
link |
03:48:02.240
So anybody else that is out money because of everything that happened isn't somebody that's like not able to feed themselves.
link |
03:48:12.240
Everybody – most of those people have plenty of money and it's like not a big deal, but I still want to repay all of it.
link |
03:48:18.240
And it's numbers.
link |
03:48:20.240
It's not – like nobody died.
link |
03:48:24.240
And sometimes when I think about my own challenges, they feel sort of inconsequential in comparison to other things going on in the world.
link |
03:48:35.240
So yes, it's hard being humiliated or it's hard to have people say nasty things about you on Twitter, Instagram, but really who cares?
link |
03:48:48.240
Because that's just words and things.
link |
03:48:50.240
And I'm not like fleeing my home and watching people get shot.
link |
03:48:56.240
And there's still – out of this darkness or out of this you can still – you still have a lot of time to create something beautiful in the world.
link |
03:49:06.240
Maybe something even more beautiful than you've ever done before.
link |
03:49:10.240
I am optimistic.
link |
03:49:12.240
And I also feel like part of the reason I like having these conversations is because I feel like people will learn stuff from my shitty experiences to avoid going through their own shitty experience.
link |
03:49:25.240
And I've heard a ton of that from a lot of women and some men writing to me saying that they went through something similar and nobody understood.
link |
03:49:35.240
And my story helped them or might help them get somebody else out of a situation.
link |
03:49:43.240
So making it useful feels good.
link |
03:49:46.240
So through all of this, Leon was with you.
link |
03:49:50.240
He recently had a birthday, March I guess.
link |
03:49:54.240
Yes, 12.
link |
03:49:56.240
I made him a phenomenal meat cake or a layered cake that involved a variety of animal foods.
link |
03:50:06.240
He's not a vegetarian?
link |
03:50:07.240
No, he's not.
link |
03:50:08.240
But I also give him like really high quality stuff.
link |
03:50:12.240
But yeah, he's not a vegan or vegetarian.
link |
03:50:14.240
Let me ask you a hard question.
link |
03:50:16.240
Do you think about the tragic fact that dogs live much shorter lives than us humans?
link |
03:50:22.240
Do you think about his mortality?
link |
03:50:26.240
All the time.
link |
03:50:27.240
I kind of try not to, but all the time.
link |
03:50:30.240
Because you told me in traveling here to Austin, Texas, you're not in the habit of leaving Leon by himself.
link |
03:50:41.240
Well, he's not by himself, but I know I haven't been away from him in certainly since before COVID.
link |
03:50:53.240
So I'm not used to it.
link |
03:50:55.240
And so I people always say that dogs have like that dogs have attachment issues or get separation anxiety.
link |
03:51:03.240
But in my case, at least it's like I think he's fine.
link |
03:51:07.240
I'm the one that is, you know, he's like fine.
link |
03:51:10.240
I'm the one that gets anxious about it, being away from him.
link |
03:51:15.240
You're the one who acts like a dog when you say you come back and you're super excited to see him.
link |
03:51:19.240
Yeah, I can pee on the floor and wiggle your tail and drool and all that kind of stuff.
link |
03:51:24.240
But do you think about the fact, you know, that you might lose Leon soon?
link |
03:51:30.240
I do. I think about it all.
link |
03:51:31.240
I mean, I try not to think about it.
link |
03:51:33.240
Are you scared of it?
link |
03:51:34.240
Yeah, it's scary.
link |
03:51:35.240
But then I also just try to understand that it's inevitable.
link |
03:51:40.240
And I mean, yeah, assuming I'm still around, then that's I think one of the things about having adopting a dog or caring for an animal,
link |
03:51:54.240
unless it's one of those animals that lives a really long time.
link |
03:51:58.240
I just found out that parrots live an extraordinarily long time.
link |
03:52:03.240
But they're annoying.
link |
03:52:05.240
So you get, it's a trade off.
link |
03:52:07.240
The ones we love live a short time.
link |
03:52:09.240
The ones that annoy you live a long time.
link |
03:52:12.240
So I just think it's one of those things that you just know it's going to happen and it's just part of life.
link |
03:52:18.240
And I think it's one of those pains that's, it's painful, but you just kind of have to go through it.
link |
03:52:26.240
And what's the alternative?
link |
03:52:28.240
You're not going to, it's like saying you would never want to fall in love because of the heartbreak that's going to inevitably come.
link |
03:52:34.240
So some people do that.
link |
03:52:36.240
They just avoid ever.
link |
03:52:38.240
You're saying, screw it, I'm diving right in.
link |
03:52:40.240
Yes.
link |
03:52:41.240
It was all worth it.
link |
03:52:42.240
What about your own mortality?
link |
03:52:43.240
You think about yourself dying?
link |
03:52:45.240
Less so than I was before.
link |
03:52:49.240
I think I wrote about that and I put this letter, Dear Mr. Fox, online, which I never intended to do.
link |
03:52:56.240
But I did because of all the misconceptions about the film and our relationship.
link |
03:53:00.240
And so I put this thing up online that I'd written on my phone on multiple subway rides.
link |
03:53:07.240
And at the end of it, I talk about because especially then when it was the height of everything was gone and what do I have to live for?
link |
03:53:15.240
I sort of noticed and wrote about how differently I felt about things, whereas I used to be afraid.
link |
03:53:22.240
I used to have a healthy fear of being pushed in front of a train because that happens in New York or anywhere.
link |
03:53:29.240
Or I had a healthy fear of, I don't know, walking down a dark street at night.
link |
03:53:36.240
But I noticed that at the time I didn't really have those fears because I was like, what do I have to lose?
link |
03:53:43.240
Who cares?
link |
03:53:45.240
I don't have anything anymore.
link |
03:53:46.240
What do I have to lose?
link |
03:53:47.240
So I certainly feel much less that way.
link |
03:53:52.240
But something about those feelings lingered where I'm less afraid of it or more just less afraid of it, but hoping it's not some sort of a gruesome way.
link |
03:54:05.240
I mean, some people are really afraid of flying.
link |
03:54:07.240
And I feel like, well, statistically, it's extremely safe.
link |
03:54:10.240
And if it's going to happen, it's going to happen.
link |
03:54:12.240
There's nothing you can do.
link |
03:54:14.240
There's really nothing you can do unless you're going to do what that guy in that small plane did the other day and leap over and was able to take control of the plane.
link |
03:54:23.240
But I mean like a commercial flight.
link |
03:54:25.240
So it's like if you're going to die, you're going to die.
link |
03:54:27.240
And it's just your time.
link |
03:54:28.240
And all you can do is hope that I would probably prefer to have as little awareness about it as possible.
link |
03:54:36.240
You know, it's like you'd rather have somebody if you're going to get shot, you'd rather have somebody shoot you in the back of the head and you didn't see it coming and just boom, lights out versus somebody holding a gun to your head.
link |
03:54:48.240
And then you're going to feel all this fear and have to like feel all of that.
link |
03:54:54.240
Which also made me think of, you know, animals and animal suffering in the way that some people argue that because of the conditions and the fear that that's like that's like in their bodies when they're killed, which is an interesting thing to think about.
link |
03:55:15.240
Yeah, I clearly struggle with the ethics of I just I think about it a lot about like our current food system, which involves a system that everybody has sort of accepted and normalized where.
link |
03:55:42.240
Like say aliens did come down and looked at us and realized that we're a particularly good source of whatever fuel they need.
link |
03:55:53.240
So then they imprisoned us all in cages that were like the equivalent of like sardines and jammed in an elevator.
link |
03:56:02.240
And then we were bred and we would get sick and we'd go crazy and we'd do the equivalent of like pecking and then we'd get abused and then like grotesquely and brutally killed.
link |
03:56:17.240
And that was like our entire lives.
link |
03:56:19.240
And so if like aliens came down and started and did all of that, we would have to be OK with that, which is something that my was said to me after watching this movie called Our Daily Bread many years ago.
link |
03:56:37.240
But it's an interesting way to think about it, because I mean, we would have to be OK with it because that's kind of what we're doing now.
link |
03:56:46.240
Right.
link |
03:56:47.240
Yeah, we've normalized certain kinds of cruelty.
link |
03:56:50.240
And I don't people think, yeah, people think that like I would object to hunting hunting for sport, I think, is grotesque.
link |
03:56:59.240
But if you're hunting and then you're going to eat the entire animal and you're hunting in a way where it's kind of like.
link |
03:57:09.240
You know, that that animal like lived a free and happy life until that moment in the same way that the animal lived a free and happy moment, lived a free and happy life.
link |
03:57:19.240
Or we don't know, maybe they were depressed, but they lived a free life until like the lion came and took it down.
link |
03:57:27.240
So is a human shooting an animal for food somehow more tragic or horrible than a lion attacking an elk?
link |
03:57:37.240
Yeah, well, so there's a lot of complexities to it on top of all of that.
link |
03:57:41.240
So one, you said sort of hunting for sport is bad, but there's this complex ethical equation of the fact that hunting for sport is the thing that often funds the preservation of a species.
link |
03:57:53.240
That's well, no, that's another complicated layer.
link |
03:57:55.240
There's like the Maui venison, all the deer in Hawaii.
link |
03:58:00.240
And I might have gotten Maui venison treats for Leon.
link |
03:58:06.240
But they're they're hunting those deer is a way of preserving.
link |
03:58:14.240
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, these things are complicated.
link |
03:58:16.240
But that's why I don't have a problem with somebody shooting an elk or bringing it home and eating it like my you know, like I've eaten elk jerky and things like that from.
link |
03:58:28.240
That's one of those situations where like I wouldn't morally have a problem with it.
link |
03:58:33.240
And for me, it's also I'm not one of those people where I think like, you know, I wouldn't eat meat.
link |
03:58:39.240
It's more like I don't want to add to the consumption of it.
link |
03:58:42.240
And I wouldn't want to eat sort of like the factory farmed meat necessarily unless I'm in prison and it's otherwise going to get thrown away.
link |
03:58:51.240
But hashtag a lot of a lot of things, you know, you know, you make do things differently there. But yeah.
link |
03:59:03.240
So, you know, it's just these things are complicated. But so it's not about like, you know, I don't want that in my body.
link |
03:59:08.240
It's sort of like what? Where did it come from and what's going on here?
link |
03:59:13.240
And I think that like if you just followed Joe Rogan's Instagram, there's sort of a bit of a glorification of meat that.
link |
03:59:27.240
Because I listen to enough that I heard the one where he talked, there was a recent one where he's talking about Anthony Bourdain.
link |
03:59:34.240
And in that conversation, I think it was that one.
link |
03:59:37.240
He explained that he sort of did it in summary. So I feel like he talked about it in the past, but did all this research and came to the conclusion.
link |
03:59:46.240
Based on all his research, came to the conclusion that he was either going to be vegetarian or shoot his own meat.
link |
03:59:53.240
Yeah. And hunt. And so that that's totally different.
link |
03:59:57.240
That's something I mean, that's very like admirable, I think. And he has the means to do it.
link |
04:00:03.240
Not only that, he does it with a bow. Right. Even more so.
link |
04:00:08.240
It is a good question. It's a good question how we get out of this factory.
link |
04:00:15.240
Right. Because I do like I like meat. I think it's delicious.
link |
04:00:21.240
And we're dependent on the not just on the nutrients and the taste. We're also dependent on the cost.
link |
04:00:29.240
A lot of people have gotten used to a particular kind of cost that they pay for meat.
link |
04:00:34.240
Right. But I think if you wiped out all the government subsidies, it would be a completely different story.
link |
04:00:40.240
Because why are vegetables so expensive? And all the subsidies.
link |
04:00:45.240
Somebody who bought some tomatoes yesterday. I'm protesting. Why is salad so expensive?
link |
04:00:51.240
Right. But none of the if you if you look at the subsidies that are given to the all of the inputs to the meat industry, like the grain and soy and whatnot,
link |
04:01:04.240
and then to the meat and dairy industries and all the subsidies that prop up those industries and allow those products to be cheap and and sustainable from a business perspective, not environmental.
link |
04:01:18.240
It's government subsidies. So what if we took all that away?
link |
04:01:21.240
And then also, what if we gave that to, you know, the the kale and hemp and fresh greens farmers then and made those foods more affordable and then had meat reflect its actual true cost?
link |
04:01:38.240
Then, you know, then people would just eat more vegetables and less meat because of the cost.
link |
04:01:45.240
You mentioned that you crossed off one item from your list. I forget what the item was, but.
link |
04:01:51.240
Oh, it was I had previously thought that I would want to go to Vegas one day just to cross that off my list.
link |
04:01:56.240
And it's not like I was like, oh, one day I want to go to Vegas. It was just like, I imagined I would only go there once just to see it and then be done with it.
link |
04:02:06.240
Yeah. Yeah. That's a good one. That's a good one. And I still think you can do it because there's a particular Vegas experience that's worth having. And there's maybe a couple of Vegas experiences that are worth having.
link |
04:02:19.240
I find casinos horribly depressing because I think they're just predatory. Everything about them is predatory.
link |
04:02:26.240
It's not it's not it's not the casinos that are important. It's the people.
link |
04:02:29.240
The culture and the whole crazy atmosphere.
link |
04:02:31.240
The people you meet, the people you meet in the chaos that is Las Vegas can create a memorable experience.
link |
04:02:40.240
You lose track of what is what is day, what is night. You can get drunk and make all the mistakes that somehow create a beautiful masterpiece at the end of it.
link |
04:02:51.240
That's for another time. What else is on the bucket list? What items on the bucket list you haven't done yet? You really, really would like.
link |
04:02:58.240
We talked about mortality, that there's a finite deadline. What pops in your head is something that you want to still do.
link |
04:03:06.240
What I want is to not die and owe people money. So.
link |
04:03:11.240
So whatever mistakes you make.
link |
04:03:13.240
I want to I want to live to write those things. And I also felt really strongly about my what I what I and everybody in the business had built. And so a big part of me wants to resurrect the brand.
link |
04:03:36.240
Because when I I felt really strongly about it, like I had that feeling that this was.
link |
04:03:43.240
This was going to be a thing that I I wanted to build and grow and could have a really positive impact and outlast me.
link |
04:03:50.240
And would you bring it back as the same name?
link |
04:03:54.240
Yeah, well, I put the logo on my arm. That's kind of how strongly I felt about it. And so when I did that and around that time and all of that time, I felt really, really strongly that.
link |
04:04:09.240
Quietly, because it feels like a little bit bold, but quietly felt really almost with a certainty that it was going to be something really big and it was growing and growing and all signs were pointing towards there.
link |
04:04:27.240
I was just sort of stalled and couldn't figure out the logistics and then enter Mr. Fox.
link |
04:04:33.240
So the universe can be quite absurdly cruel at times.
link |
04:04:40.240
But yeah, but that is something that's something worth reaching for is repay the debts of the past.
link |
04:04:50.240
And then people have said to me that Leon achieved some kind of immortality via being in the documentary. And then I might I don't understand this world at all, but I might do like an NFT thing related to Leon's image, which would be another way of kind of immortalizing his image, at least.
link |
04:05:12.240
Yeah, but that's a I mean, it's a potentially in progress kind of a crazy leap.
link |
04:05:21.240
But and potentially relaunching the restaurant.
link |
04:05:26.240
Possibly, yes, there's the restaurant and there's one lucky duck in that brand and they're sort of separate but related and they could each exist independently.
link |
04:05:39.240
I liked it better when they existed together because I felt like they were very complimentary in a lot of ways and they made sense together. But either one could be done separately without the other.
link |
04:05:50.240
Do you think you will find love again, given the chaos you had to go through?
link |
04:05:59.240
I have and I never talk about it. I've never talked about it.
link |
04:06:04.240
You have found love again?
link |
04:06:06.240
Yes, but also in a kind of possibly doomed temporary way, which
link |
04:06:14.240
You don't like it simple do you?
link |
04:06:17.240
It's not that it's not simple. It's actually quite simple. It's just that, again, there's a large age gap.
link |
04:06:24.240
I'm the older one, which in itself isn't a problem, because, again, I wouldn't I wouldn't want to like if somebody wanted kids in a family, I wouldn't want to hold them back from that.
link |
04:06:37.240
And so if I sort of wanted to be with somebody who wanted those things, even if I was completely in love with somebody, I would have to kind of like.
link |
04:06:49.240
You know, hurt, endure the pain to be like, no, I'm going to keep you from those things, so you should go do those things.
link |
04:06:58.240
So that's that's the source of the temporariness?
link |
04:07:03.240
No, it's a bit related to like logistics and living one place and having like extremely different lifestyles.
link |
04:07:15.240
Is this a prince of some sort?
link |
04:07:17.240
No.
link |
04:07:18.240
Does he have a castle?
link |
04:07:22.240
No.
link |
04:07:23.240
Okay. All right.
link |
04:07:24.240
No, no.
link |
04:07:25.240
Are you going to say who it is or we're going to keep that a mystery?
link |
04:07:29.240
I don't on the one hand, like I feel like it's a it's protective for me to talk about it in some ways.
link |
04:07:36.240
But I also worry because very often I avoid saying anything because for a lot of reasons, but one being that people freak out and just assume that I'm going to step into something horrible again, because I did step into something horribly destructive again after Mr. Fox.
link |
04:07:55.240
And what happened was I allowed something to happen. And so going back to that, what advice would you give to people? I would I would tell people to be very careful to be deliberate about who they're getting involved with and thoughtful about it and making sure that they're not just allowing something to happen.
link |
04:08:15.240
So it's like, you know, men can sometimes be and I suppose women can be as well. But people can be very persistent. Sometimes that's a good thing.
link |
04:08:26.240
But it could also be a dangerous thing because sometimes somebody might just and this has happened to me a lot where somebody just wears you down and you're like, oh, fine, you know?
link |
04:08:37.240
That's funny.
link |
04:08:38.240
And yeah, no, but it works. It's shockingly like the things that I've done in the spirit of like or not wanting to hurt somebody's feelings. That's another that's another dangerous to be nice. Let's get married just to be nice. That's another dangerous thing.
link |
04:08:51.240
And also maybe you should say I'm like circling back to all these unanswered questions from before.
link |
04:08:56.240
But I didn't marry. I married I married him. He like convinced me to marry him in this very quick, annoying way. And as if it was like something I had to do and I'd be protected and all kinds of weird reasons.
link |
04:09:10.240
And it was just like my response to my my agreeing to marry him was like, oh, fine.
link |
04:09:19.240
And then I remember being embarrassed at City Hall going to get the license.
link |
04:09:27.240
You know, people who are in love and wanting to get married aren't sitting in City Hall mortified and embarrassed, you know, so yeah, but so it was so I sort of cringe when people call him my ex husband because I don't think of him that way.
link |
04:09:39.240
It sort of is even though technically that's correct. Yeah, but there's a there's a powerful romantic notion to the thing and do those words and that that had nothing to do with you getting married. It was more.
link |
04:09:51.240
It was just like another thing that he made me do like a chore that just had, you know, unfortunate consequences of like then having to get divorced and the whole.
link |
04:10:01.240
Yeah, I think I think even weddings are romantic like the whole the cheesy thing. There's, you know. Yeah, they are. Those are cool. I agree. We don't get many, many of those in life.
link |
04:10:14.240
Well, you know what, let's keep it a mystery. Let's keep the person a mystery.
link |
04:10:21.240
To be continued on season two on conversations with some like a known person or anything, but I feel like people always worry that.
link |
04:10:32.240
I'm stepping back into something and I don't have the energy to be so should they be defensive and no.
link |
04:10:38.240
There you go. Don't worry friends. No. And also just.
link |
04:10:42.240
Remember that thing I was saying about how like it's good if you get to know somebody really slowly over a long period of time. Yeah, it's kind of one of those situations. So I feel very confident that I'm like certain that I'm not stepping into something where I'm going to be surprised and somebody turns out to be not who they presented themselves to be.
link |
04:10:59.240
So that's the wise way to do it.
link |
04:11:02.240
Especially for me. Yeah. And also, again, it's like I would I would I would caution people to be careful about, you know, wanting to go into something deliberately versus kind of getting caught up in something and or rushed or.
link |
04:11:20.240
That said, I would I would suggest people take that cautionary advice, but sometimes you just fall in love.
link |
04:11:28.240
Yeah. Love at first sight is the thing. There are those stories of, you know, sweet stories of older people that have been married forever.
link |
04:11:36.240
You can get hurt for it too, but don't don't listen to your heart.
link |
04:11:43.240
This was an incredible conversation.
link |
04:11:46.240
We talked for way over four hours. We did. Yeah.
link |
04:11:50.240
And I feel like I can keep talking to you. This was amazing. Summer, thank you so much for being honest, for for being fearless in answering all the questions, all the difficult questions.
link |
04:12:06.240
And thank you for trying to create something special with your restaurant.
link |
04:12:13.240
And maybe create something special still in your future.
link |
04:12:17.240
Yeah, I hope so. Thank you for having me. I kept thinking.
link |
04:12:22.240
I kept thinking that, like, I was going to get a message that was like, just kidding.
link |
04:12:27.240
I just I've listened to your podcast a lot. And so I've certainly felt very intimidated knowing who's sat, if not in this actual chair, in this chair, in another location or maybe here.
link |
04:12:39.240
Very. Are you nervous? Yes.
link |
04:12:42.240
And I was nervous, too. Yeah. But at the same time, but also because I've because I know the way that you speak in your style, I felt like it was going to feel like a good natural conversation as opposed to sometimes you have conversations where it's like.
link |
04:12:59.240
Anyway, I didn't feel nervous because of like what I was walking into. I felt nervous that I was going to, you know, sound stupid and boring and everybody would be like, why did he interview her? It was exciting.
link |
04:13:13.240
You happy with it? How do we do? Yeah, I think so. Very often after. Are you self critical after stuff? Yes.
link |
04:13:22.240
When you go home tonight, are you going to be, like, happy with yourself or not? I mean, I feel good. I don't feel like I can't think of anything that I said that I regret.
link |
04:13:32.240
Maybe there's things that, you know, somebody is going to yell at me because I said something that I said, like, meat tastes good or something or I don't, you know, like this like vegan judgment.
link |
04:13:41.240
Yes. Yes.
link |
04:13:43.240
But I think it's more useful to be honest about the contradictions and conflicting feelings because I feel like that's what most people have. And so if you want to help people shift a certain way.
link |
04:13:55.240
Yeah, you were raw, honest. It was beautiful. It was beautiful to watch. Thank you for the books.
link |
04:14:04.240
Your darkness today was visible. But the beauty too. It was an amazing conversation. I'm really, really happy with it. I'm honored that you sit down with me. That was awesome.
link |
04:14:16.240
I'm floored that you're honored and I'm honored that you asked me to be here. So. Thank you, Sarma.
link |
04:14:24.240
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Sarma Melengales. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, let me leave you with some words from playwright August Wilson.
link |
04:14:36.240
Confront the dark parts of yourself and work to banish them with illumination and forgiveness. Your willingness to wrestle with your demons will cause your angels to sing.
link |
04:14:48.240
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.