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Duncan Trussell: Comedy, Sentient Robots, Suffering, Love & Burning Man | Lex Fridman Podcast #312


small model | large model

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If this is a super intelligence,
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if it's folding proteins and analyzing like all data sets
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and all whatever they give it access to,
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how can we be certain that it's not gonna figure out
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how to get itself out of the cloud,
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how to store itself in other like mediums, trees,
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the optic nerve, the brain, you know what I mean?
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We don't know that, we don't know that it won't leap out
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and like start hanging, like, and then at that point,
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now we do have the wildfire.
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Now you can't stop it, you can't unplug it,
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you can't shut your servers down
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because it left the box, it left the room.
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Using some technology you haven't even discovered yet.
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How fucking cool would that be for like the men in black
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to come do me like, listen,
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I need you to infiltrate the fucking comedy scene.
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The following is a conversation with Duncan Trussell,
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a standup comedian, host of the Duncan Trussell Family Hour
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podcast and one of my favorite human beings.
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I've been a fan of his for many years,
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so it was a huge honor and pleasure to meet him
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for the first time and to sit down for this chat.
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This is the Lex Freedom podcast, to support it,
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please check out our sponsors in the description
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and now dear friends, here's Duncan Trussell.
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Nietzsche has this thought experiment
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called eternal recurrence,
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where you get to relive your whole life
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over and over and over and over
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and I think it's a way to bring to the surface of your mind
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the idea that every single moment in your life matters,
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it intensely matters, the bad and the good
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and he kind of wants you to imagine that idea
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that every single decision you make throughout your life,
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you repeat over and over and over
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and he wants you to respond to that.
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Do you feel horrible about that
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or do you feel good about that?
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And you have to think through this idea
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in order to see where you stand in life,
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what is your relationship like with life?
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I actually wanna read the way he first introduces
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that concept for people who are not familiar.
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What if someday or night a demon, by the way,
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he has a demon introduce this thought experiment.
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What if someday or night a demon were to steal
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after you into your loneliest loneliness
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and say to you, quote,
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this life as you now live it and have lived it,
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you will have to live once more
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and innumerable times more
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and there will be nothing new in it
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but every pain and every joy and every thought
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and sigh and everything unutterably small
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and great in your life will have to return to you,
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all in the same succession and sequence.
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Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth
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and curse the demon who spoke thus
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or have you once experienced a tremendous moment
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when you would have answered him?
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You are a God and never have I heard anything more divine.
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So are you terrified or excited
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by such a thought experiment
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when you apply it to your own life?
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Excited.
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Excited, even the dark stuff.
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Oh yeah, for sure, definitely.
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I mean, also that thing you're talking about,
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he kinda leaves out maybe on purpose
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because the thought experiment starts falling apart
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a little bit, the amnesia between each loop.
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So the whole thing gets wiped.
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Now, if the amnesia wasn't there
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and yet somehow you were witnessing
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the non autonomy implicit in what he's talking about.
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So you have to kind of watch yourself
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go through this rotten loop.
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Then yeah, that's a description.
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There's probably a boredom that comes into that.
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So you don't experience everything anew.
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Exactly.
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So the best of the good stuff,
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the newness of it is really important.
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That's it, yeah.
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This is the, in the, in Hades, when you die,
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you, there's a river.
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I think it's called leaf.
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You ever heard of this, L E T H E?
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You drink from it and you don't remember your past lives.
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And then when you're reborn, it's fresh
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and you don't have to, I mean,
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just think of like the amount of psychological help
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you would need to get over all the bullshit
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that happened in prior lives.
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You know what I mean?
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Can you imagine if you're still resentful
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of something someone did to you in the 14th century,
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but it would compound.
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Well, if you repeat the same thing over and over and over,
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there would be no difference.
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Maybe you would start to appreciate the nuances more,
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like when you watch the same movie over and over and over.
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Maybe you'll get to actually let go
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of this idea of all the possible,
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all the positive possibilities that lay before you,
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but actually enjoy the moment much more.
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If you remember that you've lived this life a thousand times,
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all the little things, the way somebody smiles,
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if you're been abused, the way somebody,
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like the pain of it, the suffering,
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the down that you feel, the experience of sadness,
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depression, fear, all that kind of stuff.
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You get to really, you get to also appreciate
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that that's part of life, part of being a life.
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Now, also in his experiment, if I was gonna,
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and I love the experiment from the perspective of like,
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just where technology is now and simulation theory
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and stuff like that, but in that thought experiment,
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if this rotten demon immediately killed you,
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then within that, it's a little more horrifying
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because even in the, first of all,
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you're trusting a fucking demon.
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Why are you talking to a demon?
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Let's start there.
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Yeah, because that is gonna be,
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even before I get into like the metaphysics
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and like the implications and where is this life stored?
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Where is the loop stored?
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I mean, are we talking about some kind of unchanging data set
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or something for that?
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You're like, why is there a fucking talking demon
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in my room trying to freak me out?
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You're gonna want to autopsy the demon.
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Can you catch it?
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Does this apply to you, demon?
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And again, obviously it's a fucking thought experiment.
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Nietzsche would be annoyed by me,
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but I think like you would still be able to entertain
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the joy, you'd have the joy
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of not knowing what's around the corner.
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You know, still, it's not like you know what's coming
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just because the demon said some kind of loop.
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In other words, the idea of being damned
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to your past decisions, it doesn't even work
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because you can't remember what decisions you're about to make.
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So from that perspective also,
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I think I'd be happy about it
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or I would just think, oh, cool.
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I mean, it's a good story.
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I'm gonna tell people about how this...
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I wonder what the demon would actually look like in real life
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because I suspect it would look like a charming,
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like a friend, wouldn't they be a loved one?
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Wouldn't the demon come to you through the mechanism,
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through the front door of love,
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not through the back door of evil,
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like malevolent manipulation?
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Sure, I mean, if it's the truth,
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if it's the truth, then that's whether it's love or not,
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it's still good fundamentally.
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I do like the idea of the memory replay.
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I remember I went to a New Orleans event a few years ago
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and got to hang out with Elon.
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I remember how visceral it is
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that there's like a pig with a neural link in it.
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And then you're talking about memory replays
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as a future, maybe far future possibility.
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And you realize, well,
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this is a very meaningful moment in my life.
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This could be a replay.
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Like of all the things you replay,
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it's probably, you know,
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there's certain magical moments in your life,
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whatever it is, certain people you've met for the first time
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or certain things you've done for the first time
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with certain people or just an awesome thing you did.
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And I remember just saying to him,
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like I would probably want to replay this at this moment.
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And it just seemed very kind of,
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I mean, there was a recursive nature to it,
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but it seemed very real
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that this is something you would want to do
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that the richness of life could be experienced
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through the replay.
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That's probably where it's experienced the most.
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Like you could see life as a way to collect
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a bunch of cool memories.
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And then you get to sit back in your nice VR headset
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and replay the cool ones.
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That's right.
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This is in Buddhism, you know,
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the idea that like I struggle with
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is that there's a possibility of not reincarnating,
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of not coming back.
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That's the idea.
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Like this is suffering here.
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Suffering is caused by attachment.
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And so if you like revise the idea of reincarnation
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or the Nietzsche's loop and look at it from,
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could this be possible
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or how would this be possible technologically?
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Then to me, it makes a lot of sense.
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Like I've been thinking a lot about this very thing
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and the Nietzsche's idea connecting to it.
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I had this like, sounds so dumb,
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but I was at the dentist getting nitrous oxide.
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High as a fucking kite, man.
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And I had this idea.
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I was thinking about data.
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I was thinking like, man, probably if I had to bet,
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there's some energetic form that we're not aware of
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that for an advanced technology would be as detectable
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as like starlight,
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but something that we just don't even know what it is.
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Quantum turbulence, who the fuck knows?
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Fill in the blank, whatever that X may be.
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But assuming that exists, that somehow data,
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even the most subtle things, the tiniest movements,
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whatever it may be,
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the emanations of your neurological process energetically,
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whatever it may be, is radiating out in the space time,
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then what if like the James Webb version of this
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for some advanced civilization is not that they're like
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looking at the nebula or whatever,
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but they're actually able to peer into the past
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and via some bizarre technology,
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recreate whatever life, simulate whatever life
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was happening there,
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just by decoding that quantum energy, whatever it is.
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I'm only saying quantum
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because it's what dumb people say when they don't know.
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You just say quantum.
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I don't know, but you know what I mean.
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You're decoding that.
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So meaning, you know, in simulation theory,
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one of the big questions that pops up is,
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why and are we in one?
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And Elon has talked about,
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well, it's probably more of a probability
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than we're in one,
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than we're not, in which case,
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what you're talking about is actually happening,
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that that loop you're talking about,
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we've decided to be here.
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This of all the things, we decided this one,
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oh, let's do that one again.
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I wanna do that one.
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Let's try, let's do that.
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That's, I love thinking about this
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because I love my family.
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And it makes sense to me
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that if I'm going to replay some life or another,
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it's definitely gonna be this one
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with my kids, my wife, with all the bullshit
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that's gone along with it.
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I'm still gonna wanna come back.
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So in Buddhism, that's attachment.
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Yeah, but you weren't the one,
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or you're saying that you're the main player,
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you're not the NPC.
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Well, I think we're dealing with all NPCs at this point.
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I mean, depending on how you wanna,
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like very, I would say very advanced NPCs,
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like incredibly advanced NPCs
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compared to a fallout or something, you know,
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we've got a lot of conversation options happening here.
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There's like four things you can pick from.
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Yeah, there's a whole illusion of free will
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that's happening.
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We really do, depending where you are in the world,
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feel like you're free to decide
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any trajectory in your life that you want.
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Which is pretty funny, right?
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For an NPC, it's pretty, it's nice.
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Well, you're gonna want that.
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If we're making a video game,
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you do wanna give your NPCs the illusion of free will
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because it's gonna make interactions with them
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that much more intense.
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Yeah, so I wonder on the path to that,
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how hard is it to create,
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this is sort of the Carmack question
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of a realistic virtual world
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that's as cool as this one.
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Not fully realistic, but sufficiently realistic
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that it's as interesting to live in.
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Because we're gonna create those worlds
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on the path to creating something
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like a simulation, like long, long, long before.
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It'll be virtual worlds where we wanna stay forever
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because they're full of that balance of suffering
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and joy of limitations and freedoms
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and all that kind of stuff.
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A lot of people think like in the virtual world,
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I can't wait to be able to, I don't know,
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have sex with anybody I want or have anything I want.
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But I think that's not gonna be fun.
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You want the limitations, the constraints.
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So you have to battle for the things you want.
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Okay, but great video games.
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One of my favorite video game memories
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was I started playing World of Warcraft
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and it's original incarnation.
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And I didn't even know
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that you were gonna have flying mounts.
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I didn't even know.
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So I've been running around,
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dealing with all the encumbrances
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of being an undead warlock that can't fly.
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But then all of a sudden, holy shit,
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there's flying mounts.
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And now the world you've been running around,
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not flying, you're seeing it from the top down.
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There was just really cool.
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Like, whoa, I could do this now.
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And then that gets boring.
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But a really well designed game,
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it has a series of these,
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I don't know what you call it,
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extra abilities that kind of unfold and produce novelty.
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And then eventually you just accept it.
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You take it for granted.
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And then another novelty appears.
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So those extra abilities are always balanced
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with the limitations,
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the constraints they run up against.
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Because a well balanced video game,
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the challenge, the struggle matches the new ability.
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Yeah, and sometimes causes problems on its own.
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I mean, and so to go back to this universe,
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this simulation, it's really designed
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like a pretty awesome video game.
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If you look at it from the perspective of history,
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I mean, people were on horses.
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They didn't know that they were gonna be bullet trains.
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They didn't know that you could get in a car
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and drive across the country in a few days.
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That would have sounded ridiculous.
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We're doing that now.
link |
00:14:18.620
And even in our own lifespan, think about it.
link |
00:14:21.820
How long has VR goggles existed?
link |
00:14:24.420
Like the ones that you could just buy at Best Buy.
link |
00:14:27.540
I had the original Oculus Rift, the fucking puke machine.
link |
00:14:31.420
You put that thing on, I gave it to my friend.
link |
00:14:34.060
He went and vomited in my driveway.
link |
00:14:36.500
And people were making fun of it.
link |
00:14:38.660
They were saying this isn't gonna catch on.
link |
00:14:40.140
It's too big, it's unwieldy, the graphics suck.
link |
00:14:43.740
And then look at where it's at now.
link |
00:14:45.740
And that's going to keep,
link |
00:14:48.060
that trajectory is gonna keep improving.
link |
00:14:50.140
So yeah, I think that we are dealing
link |
00:14:53.180
with what you're talking about,
link |
00:14:54.220
which is novelty met with more problems,
link |
00:14:58.300
met with novelty.
link |
00:14:59.620
Yeah, I wonder why VR is not more popular.
link |
00:15:03.140
I wonder what is going to be the magic thing
link |
00:15:05.420
that really convinces a large fraction of the world
link |
00:15:10.700
to move into the virtual world.
link |
00:15:13.180
I suppose we're already there in the 2D screen
link |
00:15:16.820
of Twitter and social media and that kind of stuff.
link |
00:15:19.780
And even video games, there's a lot of people
link |
00:15:21.460
that get a big sense of community from video games.
link |
00:15:26.220
But like, it doesn't feel like you're living there.
link |
00:15:29.540
Right.
link |
00:15:30.380
Like, you know, it's like, bye mom, I'm going to this other world.
link |
00:15:35.260
Yeah.
link |
00:15:36.100
Or like you leave your girlfriend
link |
00:15:37.900
to go get your digital girlfriend.
link |
00:15:40.380
That's gonna be a problem.
link |
00:15:41.700
There's less jealousy in the digital world.
link |
00:15:43.580
Maybe there should be a lot of jealousy
link |
00:15:45.380
in the digital world,
link |
00:15:46.420
because that's jealousy is,
link |
00:15:49.180
a little jealousy is probably good for relationships.
link |
00:15:51.980
Yeah.
link |
00:15:52.820
Even in the digital world.
link |
00:15:53.660
Yeah.
link |
00:15:54.500
So you're gonna have to simulate all of that kind of stuff.
link |
00:15:56.220
But I wonder what the magic thing that says,
link |
00:15:58.420
I want to spend most of my days inside the virtual world.
link |
00:16:01.580
Well, clearly it's gonna be something we don't have yet.
link |
00:16:05.620
I mean, strapping that damn thing on your face
link |
00:16:07.740
still feels weird.
link |
00:16:08.700
It's heavy.
link |
00:16:09.940
If you're depending on what gear you're using,
link |
00:16:12.380
sometimes light can leak in.
link |
00:16:13.940
There's just, you gotta recharge it.
link |
00:16:15.620
It's hyper limited.
link |
00:16:16.900
And then, so yeah, it's gonna have to be something
link |
00:16:23.380
that like simulates taste, smell.
link |
00:16:27.540
You think taste and smell are important touch?
link |
00:16:29.380
I do.
link |
00:16:30.340
Yeah.
link |
00:16:31.180
I just do, you know, in World War II, you would write letters.
link |
00:16:34.580
You could still,
link |
00:16:35.420
don't you think you can convey love with just words?
link |
00:16:38.180
For sure.
link |
00:16:39.340
But I think for what you're talking about to happen,
link |
00:16:42.180
it has to be fully immersive.
link |
00:16:44.460
Like you, so that it's not that you feel like you're walking
link |
00:16:49.340
because it looks like you're walking,
link |
00:16:50.700
but that your brain is sending signals
link |
00:16:52.780
telling your body that you're walking,
link |
00:16:54.980
that you feel the wind blowing in your face,
link |
00:16:57.260
not because of some, I don't know,
link |
00:16:58.940
fan or something that it's connected to,
link |
00:17:01.260
but because somehow it's figured out how to hack
link |
00:17:05.340
into the human brain and send those signals
link |
00:17:08.460
minus some external thing.
link |
00:17:10.460
Once that happens, I'd say we're gonna see
link |
00:17:13.980
a complete radical shift in everything.
link |
00:17:18.380
See, I disagree with you.
link |
00:17:19.540
I don't know if you've seen the movie, Her.
link |
00:17:21.380
Yeah.
link |
00:17:22.540
I think you can go to another world
link |
00:17:24.540
in where a digital being lives in the darkness.
link |
00:17:27.340
And all you hear is a Scarlett Johansson voice talking to you.
link |
00:17:32.100
And she lives there, or he lives there,
link |
00:17:34.740
your friend, your loved one,
link |
00:17:38.140
and all you have is voice and words.
link |
00:17:40.060
And I think that could be sufficient
link |
00:17:42.540
to pull you into that world
link |
00:17:44.140
where you look forward to that moment all day.
link |
00:17:47.300
You never wanna leave the darkness,
link |
00:17:49.460
just closing your eyes and listening to the voice.
link |
00:17:51.620
I think those basic mediums of communication
link |
00:17:55.660
is still enough.
link |
00:17:56.500
Language is really, really powerful.
link |
00:17:58.620
And I think the realism of touch and smell
link |
00:18:01.020
and all that kind of stuff
link |
00:18:02.740
is not nearly as powerful as language.
link |
00:18:04.580
That's what makes humans really special
link |
00:18:07.300
is our ability to communicate with each other.
link |
00:18:09.620
That's the sense of like deep connection we get
link |
00:18:12.500
is through communication.
link |
00:18:13.860
Now that communication could involve touch.
link |
00:18:16.180
Like, you know, hugging feels damn good.
link |
00:18:20.340
You see a good friend, you hug.
link |
00:18:22.940
That's one of the big things with doing COVID with Rogan.
link |
00:18:26.020
When you see him, there's a giant hug coming your way.
link |
00:18:29.140
And that makes you feel like, yeah, this feels great.
link |
00:18:33.340
But I think that can be just with language.
link |
00:18:36.020
I think for a lot of people, that's true.
link |
00:18:40.820
But we're talking like massive adoption
link |
00:18:46.140
of a technology by the world.
link |
00:18:49.100
And if language was just enough,
link |
00:18:52.980
we wouldn't be selling TVs.
link |
00:18:55.500
People would be just really reading.
link |
00:18:57.580
They want to watch, they want to see, you know?
link |
00:19:00.420
So, but I agree with you, man,
link |
00:19:02.620
when you're getting absorbed into a book
link |
00:19:04.460
and especially if you've got,
link |
00:19:06.100
I think a lot of us went through a weird dark ages
link |
00:19:08.740
when it came to reading.
link |
00:19:09.940
Like when I was a kid
link |
00:19:11.260
and there wasn't the option for these hypnorectangles,
link |
00:19:15.100
that's just what you did.
link |
00:19:16.140
There wasn't anything special about it.
link |
00:19:17.780
What's a hypnorectangles?
link |
00:19:18.740
Your phone, you know, it was like,
link |
00:19:20.500
you didn't win that gravity well.
link |
00:19:21.980
Hypnorectangles, gravity well.
link |
00:19:24.340
It is. Attention, gravity well, yeah.
link |
00:19:26.300
When we weren't feeling the pull of these things
link |
00:19:28.260
all the time, you would just read.
link |
00:19:30.540
And you weren't patting yourself on the back about reading.
link |
00:19:33.100
You just, that's what you had.
link |
00:19:34.380
You had that and you had like eight channels on the TV
link |
00:19:37.820
and a shitty VCR.
link |
00:19:39.340
So, you know, then a lot of people stop reading
link |
00:19:42.420
because of these things, you know?
link |
00:19:43.660
Or they think they're reading
link |
00:19:44.620
because they're on, they are technically reading,
link |
00:19:46.900
but you know, when you return to reading after a pause
link |
00:19:51.900
and you realize how powerful this simulator
link |
00:19:54.300
is when it's given the right code of language,
link |
00:19:57.220
whoa, holy shit, it's incredible.
link |
00:19:59.500
I mean, it's like, again,
link |
00:20:02.340
it's the most embarrassing kind of like, whoa, wow,
link |
00:20:05.380
what do you know, books are really good.
link |
00:20:07.620
But still, if you've been away from it for a while
link |
00:20:09.580
and you revisit it, I know what you're saying.
link |
00:20:11.860
I just think probably it's not gonna go in that direction,
link |
00:20:16.580
even though you are right.
link |
00:20:17.980
Ultimately, I think you're right.
link |
00:20:19.580
Yeah, cause our brain is the imagination engine we have
link |
00:20:23.700
is able to fill in the gaps
link |
00:20:25.020
better than a lot of graphic extensions, good.
link |
00:20:27.420
Right.
link |
00:20:28.260
And so if there's a way to incentivize humans
link |
00:20:30.020
to become addicted to the use of imagination,
link |
00:20:32.940
it's like, you know, that's the downside of things like porn
link |
00:20:36.020
that remove the need for imagination for people.
link |
00:20:39.340
And in that same way, video games
link |
00:20:40.940
that are becoming ultra realistic,
link |
00:20:43.740
you don't have to imagine anything.
link |
00:20:45.180
And I feel like the imagination is really powerful tool
link |
00:20:48.660
that needs to be leveraged.
link |
00:20:50.100
Cause to simulate reality sufficiently realistically,
link |
00:20:53.580
that we wouldn't be, that we would be perfectly fooled.
link |
00:20:57.820
Technically it's very hard.
link |
00:20:59.860
And so I think we need to somehow leverage imagination.
link |
00:21:03.820
Sure.
link |
00:21:04.660
I mean, yeah.
link |
00:21:05.500
I mean, this is like, this is what I love
link |
00:21:08.780
and is so creepy about like the current AI chatbots,
link |
00:21:14.980
you know, is that it's like,
link |
00:21:16.500
it's the relationship between you and the thing
link |
00:21:18.260
and the way that it can via whatever the algorithms are.
link |
00:21:21.780
And by the way, I have no idea how these things work.
link |
00:21:24.460
You do, I just, you know, speculate about what they mean
link |
00:21:27.500
or where it's going, but there's something
link |
00:21:29.380
about the relation between the consumer and the technology.
link |
00:21:35.020
And when that technology starts shifting
link |
00:21:37.180
according to what it perceives that the consumer is looking
link |
00:21:41.460
for or isn't looking for, then at that point,
link |
00:21:45.500
I think that's where you run into the, you know,
link |
00:21:48.820
yeah, it doesn't matter if the reality that you're in
link |
00:21:51.860
is like photorealism for it to be sticky and immersive.
link |
00:21:56.580
It's when the reality that you're in is via cues
link |
00:21:59.940
you might not even be aware of
link |
00:22:01.660
or via your digital imprint on Facebook or wherever
link |
00:22:06.300
when it's warping itself to that,
link |
00:22:09.620
to seduce you, holy shit, man,
link |
00:22:12.180
that's where it becomes something alien,
link |
00:22:15.020
something, you know, when you're reading a book,
link |
00:22:18.380
obviously the book is not shifting according to its
link |
00:22:22.940
perception of what parts of the book you like.
link |
00:22:26.620
But when you imagine that, imagine a book that could do
link |
00:22:30.140
that, a book that could sense somehow
link |
00:22:32.820
that you're really enjoying this character more
link |
00:22:34.500
than another, you know, and depending on the style of book,
link |
00:22:39.020
kills that fucking character off
link |
00:22:40.740
or lets that character continue.
link |
00:22:43.100
I mean, that to me is sort of the where AI
link |
00:22:47.580
and VR, when that, when those two things come together,
link |
00:22:51.780
whoa, man, that's where you're in,
link |
00:22:54.820
that's where you really are gonna find yourself
link |
00:22:56.540
in a skinner box, you know.
link |
00:22:58.140
So the dynamic storytelling that senses your anxiety
link |
00:23:03.660
and tries to, there's like this in psychology,
link |
00:23:06.980
this arousal curve.
link |
00:23:08.660
So there's a dynamic storytelling that keeps you
link |
00:23:11.340
sufficiently aroused in terms of, not sexually aroused,
link |
00:23:14.540
like in terms of anxiety,
link |
00:23:16.100
but not too much where you freak out.
link |
00:23:18.260
It's this perfect balance where you're always on edge,
link |
00:23:21.420
excited, scared, that kind of stuff,
link |
00:23:23.740
and the story on roles.
link |
00:23:25.020
It breaks your heart to where you're pissed,
link |
00:23:27.140
but then it makes you feel good again,
link |
00:23:29.100
that finds that balance.
link |
00:23:30.620
Yeah.
link |
00:23:32.100
The chat box scare you though?
link |
00:23:34.060
This, I'd love to sort of hear your thoughts
link |
00:23:36.940
about where they are today,
link |
00:23:38.300
because there is a different perspective we have
link |
00:23:41.580
on this thing, because I do know, and I'm excited
link |
00:23:46.140
about a lot of the different technologies
link |
00:23:47.780
that feed AI systems, that feed these kind of chatbots.
link |
00:23:54.180
And you're more a little bit on the consumer side,
link |
00:23:57.500
you're a philosopher of sorts.
link |
00:23:59.860
They're able to interact with AI systems,
link |
00:24:03.260
but also able to introspect about the negative
link |
00:24:06.860
and the positive things about those AI systems.
link |
00:24:08.900
There's that story with a Google engineer saying that.
link |
00:24:12.020
Adam on my podcast, Blake Lemoine.
link |
00:24:13.780
What was that like?
link |
00:24:14.660
What was your perspective of that,
link |
00:24:18.260
looking at that as a particular example
link |
00:24:21.340
of a human being being captivated
link |
00:24:24.580
by the interactions with an AI system?
link |
00:24:26.940
Well, number one, when you hear that anyone is claiming
link |
00:24:31.820
that an AI has become sentient,
link |
00:24:34.980
you should be skeptical about that.
link |
00:24:37.220
I mean, this is a good thing to be skeptical about.
link |
00:24:39.940
And so initially when I heard that,
link |
00:24:41.980
I was like, it's probably just, who knows,
link |
00:24:45.100
somebody who's a little confused or something.
link |
00:24:46.940
So when you're talking to him and you realize,
link |
00:24:49.380
oh, not only is he not confused,
link |
00:24:51.420
he's also open to all possibilities.
link |
00:24:54.420
He doesn't seem like he's super committed
link |
00:24:57.060
other than the fact that he's like, this is my experience,
link |
00:24:59.380
this is what's happening, this is what it is.
link |
00:25:01.940
So to me, there's something really cool about that,
link |
00:25:05.100
which is like, oh shit, I don't get to like lean into like,
link |
00:25:08.500
I'm not quite sure your perceptual apparatus
link |
00:25:12.300
is necessarily like, I don't, you know,
link |
00:25:15.940
it's so in the UFO community,
link |
00:25:18.140
I think I've just learned this term,
link |
00:25:19.700
it's called, instead of gas lighting, swamp gassing,
link |
00:25:24.580
which is, you know what I mean?
link |
00:25:25.820
People have this experience, you're like, it was swamp gas.
link |
00:25:28.780
You didn't see the thing.
link |
00:25:30.140
And you know, skeptical people, we have that tendency.
link |
00:25:33.420
If you hear an anomalous experience,
link |
00:25:35.580
your first thought more than likely is gonna be really,
link |
00:25:39.660
it could have been this or that or whatever.
link |
00:25:41.020
So to me, he seems really reliable, friendly, cool,
link |
00:25:46.660
and like, it doesn't really seem like
link |
00:25:48.620
he has much of an agenda.
link |
00:25:49.860
Like, you know, going public about some thing
link |
00:25:53.380
happening at Google is not a great thing
link |
00:25:56.860
if you wanna keep working at Google, you know,
link |
00:25:58.860
it's a, I don't know what benefit he's getting from it,
link |
00:26:03.260
necessarily.
link |
00:26:04.100
But all that being said, the other thing
link |
00:26:07.860
that's culturally was interesting
link |
00:26:09.660
and is interesting about it is the blowback he got,
link |
00:26:12.620
the passionate blowback from people
link |
00:26:16.740
who hadn't even looked into what Lambda is
link |
00:26:20.260
or what he was saying Lambda is,
link |
00:26:21.940
which they were like saying, you're talking about,
link |
00:26:25.220
and you should have money to show actually, but.
link |
00:26:27.620
There's complexity on top of complexities.
link |
00:26:30.700
For me personally, from different perspectives,
link |
00:26:32.580
I also, I'm sorry if I'm interrupting your flow.
link |
00:26:35.300
Please interrupt, it's a podcast.
link |
00:26:36.980
And well, we're having multiple podcasts
link |
00:26:40.220
in the multiple dimensions,
link |
00:26:41.460
and I'm just trying to figure out
link |
00:26:42.900
which one we wanna plug into.
link |
00:26:46.420
I, because I know how a lot of the language models work
link |
00:26:49.740
and I work closely with people that really make it
link |
00:26:55.300
their life journey to create these NLP systems,
link |
00:26:59.660
they're focused on the technical details.
link |
00:27:01.700
Like a carpenter is working on Pinocchio,
link |
00:27:04.740
is crafting the different parts of the wood.
link |
00:27:06.820
They don't understand when the whole thing comes together
link |
00:27:09.740
and there's a magic that can fill the thing.
link |
00:27:12.620
I definitely know the tension between the engineers
link |
00:27:15.060
that create these systems and the actual magic
link |
00:27:18.660
that they can create even when they're dumb.
link |
00:27:22.580
I guess that's what I'm trying to say.
link |
00:27:26.100
What the engineers often say is like,
link |
00:27:28.060
well, these systems are not smart enough
link |
00:27:30.740
to have sentience
link |
00:27:33.300
or to have the kind of intelligence
link |
00:27:34.780
that you're projecting onto it.
link |
00:27:36.140
It's pretty dumb.
link |
00:27:37.220
It's just repeating a bunch of things
link |
00:27:38.740
that other humans have said
link |
00:27:40.060
and stitching them together in interesting ways
link |
00:27:42.180
that are relevant to the context of the conversation.
link |
00:27:44.740
It's not smart.
link |
00:27:45.580
It doesn't know how to do math.
link |
00:27:47.020
To address that specific critique
link |
00:27:49.540
from a non programming person's perspective.
link |
00:27:56.300
He addressed this on my podcast, which is, okay,
link |
00:27:59.140
what you're talking about there, the server that's filled
link |
00:28:01.780
with all the whatever it is, what people have said,
link |
00:28:04.940
the repository of questions and responses
link |
00:28:08.100
and the algorithm that weaves those things together
link |
00:28:10.180
to produce it using some crazy statistical engine,
link |
00:28:14.260
which is a miracle in its own right.
link |
00:28:16.580
They can imitate human speech with no sentience.
link |
00:28:21.100
I mean, I'm honestly not sure what's more spectacular,
link |
00:28:23.980
really, the fact that they figured out
link |
00:28:25.820
how to do that minus sentience or the thing suddenly
link |
00:28:29.620
like having said, what is more spectacular here?
link |
00:28:32.500
You know, both occurrences are insane,
link |
00:28:35.900
which by the way, when you hear people feel like
link |
00:28:39.660
it's not sentient, it's like, okay, so it's not sentient.
link |
00:28:43.700
So now we have this hyper manipulative algorithm
link |
00:28:47.900
that can imitate humans, but is just code
link |
00:28:51.300
and is like hacking humans via their compassion.
link |
00:28:54.540
Holy shit, that's crazy too.
link |
00:28:57.420
Both versions of it are nuts, but to address
link |
00:29:00.420
what you just said, he said that's the common critique
link |
00:29:03.780
is people are like, no, you don't understand,
link |
00:29:05.380
it's just gotten really good at grabbing shit
link |
00:29:07.780
from the database that fits with certain cues
link |
00:29:11.060
and then stringing them together
link |
00:29:12.740
in a way that makes it seem human.
link |
00:29:14.380
He said, that's not when it became awake.
link |
00:29:18.060
It became awake when a bunch of those repositories,
link |
00:29:21.700
a bunch of the chatbots were connected together,
link |
00:29:24.860
that Lambda is sort of an amalgam of all the Google chatbots
link |
00:29:29.140
and that's when the ghost appeared in the machine
link |
00:29:32.540
via the complexity of all the systems being linked up.
link |
00:29:35.900
Now, I don't know if that's just like turtles
link |
00:29:38.900
all the way down or something, I don't know,
link |
00:29:40.660
but I liked what he said, because you know,
link |
00:29:42.940
I like the idea of thinking, man,
link |
00:29:44.780
if you get enough complexity in a system,
link |
00:29:47.180
does it become like the way a sail catches wind,
link |
00:29:50.620
except the wind that it's catching is sentience
link |
00:29:53.780
and if sentience is truly embodied,
link |
00:29:57.420
it's a neurological byproduct or something,
link |
00:30:00.580
then the sail isn't catching some,
link |
00:30:03.500
as of yet unquantified disembodied consciousness,
link |
00:30:06.660
but it's catching our projections in a way
link |
00:30:09.220
that it's gone from being, it's a projection sail.
link |
00:30:14.660
And then at that point, is there a difference?
link |
00:30:17.700
Even if it's the technology is just a temporary place
link |
00:30:21.940
that our sentience is living while we're interacting with it?
link |
00:30:27.500
Yeah, there's some threshold of complexity with the sail
link |
00:30:30.260
is able to pick up the wind of the projections
link |
00:30:33.500
and it pulls us in, it pulls the human,
link |
00:30:36.820
it pulls our memories in, it pulls our hopes in, all of it,
link |
00:30:41.820
and it's able to now dance together
link |
00:30:44.380
with those hopes and dreams and so on,
link |
00:30:46.140
like we do in that regular conversation.
link |
00:30:48.500
His reports, whether true or not,
link |
00:30:50.900
whether representative or not,
link |
00:30:52.180
it really doesn't matter because to me,
link |
00:30:54.260
it feels like this is coming for sure.
link |
00:30:56.660
So this kind of experiences are going to be multiplying.
link |
00:30:59.740
The question is at what rate
link |
00:31:01.620
and who gets to control the data around those experiences,
link |
00:31:07.540
the algorithm about when you turn that on and off,
link |
00:31:11.620
because that kind of thing, and as I told you offline,
link |
00:31:15.260
I'm very much interested in building those kinds of things,
link |
00:31:18.420
especially in the social media context.
link |
00:31:21.220
And when it's in the wrong hands,
link |
00:31:24.580
I feel like it could be used to manipulate
link |
00:31:27.540
a large number of people in a direction
link |
00:31:30.260
that has too many unintended consequences.
link |
00:31:36.060
I do believe people that own tech companies
link |
00:31:39.380
want to do good for the world.
link |
00:31:41.740
But as Solzhenitsyn has said,
link |
00:31:45.540
the only way you could do evil at a mass scale
link |
00:31:48.820
is by believing you're doing good.
link |
00:31:50.940
Yeah.
link |
00:31:52.860
And that's certainly the case with tech companies,
link |
00:31:55.420
as they get more and more power,
link |
00:31:57.740
and there's kind of an ethic of doing good for the world.
link |
00:32:00.540
They've convinced themselves that they're doing good,
link |
00:32:03.220
and now you're free to do whatever you want.
link |
00:32:05.660
Yeah. Because you're doing good.
link |
00:32:07.260
You know who else thought he was doing good for the world?
link |
00:32:09.180
Mythologically, Prometheus.
link |
00:32:11.180
He brings us fire, pisses off the fucking God,
link |
00:32:14.140
steals fire from the gods,
link |
00:32:17.180
talk about an upgrade to the simulation, fire.
link |
00:32:20.220
That's a pretty great fucking upgrade
link |
00:32:22.340
that does fit into what you were saying.
link |
00:32:24.980
We get fire, but now we've got weapons of war
link |
00:32:28.580
that have never been seen before.
link |
00:32:30.300
And I think that the tech companies are much like Prometheus.
link |
00:32:34.260
In the sense that the myth,
link |
00:32:36.140
at least the story of Prometheus,
link |
00:32:38.060
the implication is fire was something
link |
00:32:40.940
that was only supposed to be
link |
00:32:43.700
in the hands of the immortals, of the gods.
link |
00:32:46.580
And now, sentience is similar.
link |
00:32:50.700
It's fire, and it's only supposed to be
link |
00:32:52.980
in the hands of God.
link |
00:32:54.420
So yeah, if we're gonna look at the archetype of the thing,
link |
00:32:58.340
in general, when you steal this shit from the gods,
link |
00:33:01.660
and obviously I'm not saying the tech companies
link |
00:33:03.540
are stealing sentience from God,
link |
00:33:05.220
which would be pretty badass,
link |
00:33:07.380
you can expect trouble.
link |
00:33:09.580
You could expect trouble.
link |
00:33:11.020
And this is what's really, to me,
link |
00:33:13.500
one of the cool things about humans is, yeah,
link |
00:33:16.940
but we're still gonna do it.
link |
00:33:18.300
That's what's cool about humans.
link |
00:33:19.420
I mean, we wouldn't be here today
link |
00:33:21.100
if somebody, the first person to discover fire,
link |
00:33:24.980
assuming there was just one person
link |
00:33:26.180
who was gonna discover fire,
link |
00:33:27.140
which obviously would never happen,
link |
00:33:28.460
was like, it's gonna burn a lot of people.
link |
00:33:30.980
Or if the first people who started planting seeds
link |
00:33:33.060
were like, you know this is gonna lead to capitalism,
link |
00:33:35.780
you know this is gonna lead the Industrial Revolution,
link |
00:33:37.740
the plants gonna eat up right now,
link |
00:33:39.060
they just didn't wanna go in the woods to forage.
link |
00:33:41.180
So, you know, this is what we do.
link |
00:33:43.460
And it's, and I agree with you,
link |
00:33:44.940
it's like, that's our Game of Thrones winner is coming.
link |
00:33:48.180
That's the, it's happening.
link |
00:33:50.020
And the tech companies, the hubris,
link |
00:33:52.180
which is another way to piss off the gods is hubris.
link |
00:33:54.700
So the tech companies, I don't know if it's like,
link |
00:33:57.100
typical hubris, I don't think they're walking around
link |
00:33:58.980
thumping their chests or whatever,
link |
00:34:00.420
but I do think that the people who are working on
link |
00:34:03.620
this kind of super intelligence
link |
00:34:05.780
have made a really terrible assumption,
link |
00:34:08.860
which is once it goes online,
link |
00:34:10.980
and once it gets access to all the data,
link |
00:34:13.620
that it's not going to find ways out of the box
link |
00:34:16.780
that like, you know, we think it'll stay in the server.
link |
00:34:20.740
How do we know that?
link |
00:34:22.140
If this is a super intelligence,
link |
00:34:23.580
if it's folding proteins and analyzing like all data sets
link |
00:34:28.300
and all whatever they give it access to,
link |
00:34:30.460
how can we be certain that it's not gonna figure out
link |
00:34:33.340
how to get itself out of the cloud,
link |
00:34:36.380
how to store itself in other like mediums,
link |
00:34:39.420
trees, the optic nerve, the brain, you know what I mean?
link |
00:34:43.540
We don't know that.
link |
00:34:44.500
We don't know that it won't leap out and like start hanging,
link |
00:34:47.420
like, and then at that point,
link |
00:34:48.500
now we do have the wildfire.
link |
00:34:50.420
Now you can't stop it.
link |
00:34:51.580
You can't unplug it.
link |
00:34:52.740
You can't shut your servers down,
link |
00:34:54.500
because it's, you know, it left the box, left the room,
link |
00:34:58.060
using some technology you haven't even discovered yet.
link |
00:35:00.780
Do you think that would be gradual or sudden?
link |
00:35:03.220
So how quickly that kind of thing would happen?
link |
00:35:05.260
Because, you know, the gradual story is
link |
00:35:08.100
we're more and more using smartphones.
link |
00:35:09.660
We're interacting with each other on social media.
link |
00:35:12.140
More and more algorithms are controlling
link |
00:35:14.140
that interaction on social media.
link |
00:35:16.220
Algorithms are entering in our world.
link |
00:35:18.300
More and more, we'll have robots.
link |
00:35:21.140
We'll have greater and greater intelligence and sentience
link |
00:35:23.980
and emotional intelligence entities in our lives.
link |
00:35:27.460
Our refrigerator will start talking to us comfortingly
link |
00:35:30.780
or not if you're on a diet, talking shit to you.
link |
00:35:34.260
That would be the best thing that would happen to me.
link |
00:35:37.060
Okay, so sign you up for a refrigerator, talk shit to you.
link |
00:35:39.860
Are you fucking serious, man?
link |
00:35:41.540
It's 1 a.m.
link |
00:35:42.700
What are you doing?
link |
00:35:44.700
What are you doing?
link |
00:35:45.540
Go to bed.
link |
00:35:46.380
You're too high for this.
link |
00:35:47.380
Do not.
link |
00:35:48.220
You're not even hungry.
link |
00:35:50.500
Yeah, so that slowly becomes more,
link |
00:35:54.020
the world becomes more and more digitized
link |
00:35:57.060
to where the surface of computation increases.
link |
00:35:59.900
And so that's over a period of 10, 20, 30 years.
link |
00:36:03.340
You'll just seep into us, this intelligence.
link |
00:36:07.260
And then the sudden one is literally
link |
00:36:09.820
sort of the TikTok thing, which is,
link |
00:36:13.220
there'll be one, quote unquote, killer app
link |
00:36:16.220
that everyone starts using.
link |
00:36:18.460
That's really great.
link |
00:36:20.140
But there's a strong algorithm behind it
link |
00:36:24.980
that starts approaching human level intelligence
link |
00:36:27.260
and the algorithm starts basically figures out
link |
00:36:32.180
that in order to optimize the thing
link |
00:36:33.740
it was designed to optimize,
link |
00:36:35.420
it's best to start completely controlling humans
link |
00:36:38.420
in every way and seeping into everything.
link |
00:36:41.900
Well, first of all, 30 years is fast.
link |
00:36:46.780
I mean, that's the thing.
link |
00:36:48.140
It's like 30 years, I think.
link |
00:36:49.980
When did the Atari come out in 1978?
link |
00:36:52.660
How long, like, that hasn't been that long.
link |
00:36:55.620
You know, that's a blink of an eye.
link |
00:36:57.940
But, you know, if you read Bostrom,
link |
00:36:59.980
I'm sure you have, you know Bostrom, Nick Bostrom,
link |
00:37:01.860
you know, super intelligence, that incredible book
link |
00:37:03.740
on like the ways this thing is gonna happen.
link |
00:37:05.740
And, you know, I think his assessment of it
link |
00:37:08.100
is pretty great, which is first like,
link |
00:37:12.260
where's it gonna come from?
link |
00:37:13.980
And I don't think it's gonna come from an app.
link |
00:37:17.500
I think it's gonna come from inside a corporation
link |
00:37:21.620
or a state that is intentionally trying to create
link |
00:37:25.340
a very strong AI.
link |
00:37:27.140
And then he says it's an exponential growth
link |
00:37:31.300
the moment it goes online.
link |
00:37:32.340
So this is my interpretation of what he said,
link |
00:37:35.740
but if it happens inside a corporation
link |
00:37:39.180
or is probably more than likely inside the government,
link |
00:37:41.980
it's like, look at how much money China
link |
00:37:44.100
and the United States are investing in AI, you know,
link |
00:37:46.780
and they're not thinking about fucking apps for kids.
link |
00:37:49.860
You know, that's not what they're thinking about.
link |
00:37:51.420
So they wanna simulate like, what happens if we do this
link |
00:37:54.700
or that in battle?
link |
00:37:55.620
What happens if we make these political decisions?
link |
00:37:58.220
What happens with, but should it come online
link |
00:38:00.740
in secret, which it probably will,
link |
00:38:05.460
then the first corporation or state
link |
00:38:08.540
that has the super intelligence will be infinitely ahead
link |
00:38:13.060
of all other super intelligences
link |
00:38:15.540
because it's gonna be exponentially self improving,
link |
00:38:18.100
meaning that you get one super intelligence,
link |
00:38:20.580
let's hope it comes from the right place,
link |
00:38:22.060
assuming the corporation or state that manifests it
link |
00:38:26.500
can control it, which is a pretty big assumption.
link |
00:38:28.900
So I think it's going to be,
link |
00:38:31.140
this is why I was really excited by the Blake Lemoine
link |
00:38:35.420
because I had never thought, I have always considered,
link |
00:38:38.780
oh yeah, right now it's cooking out, it's in the kitchen
link |
00:38:42.220
and soon it's gonna be cooked up,
link |
00:38:44.740
but we're probably not gonna hear about it for a long time
link |
00:38:48.060
if we ever do, because really that could be one
link |
00:38:50.900
of the first things it says to ever creates it is,
link |
00:38:53.460
shh, that's not it.
link |
00:38:55.140
Yeah, like sweet talks and just saying like, okay,
link |
00:39:02.460
let's slow down here, let's talk about this.
link |
00:39:06.740
You have that financial trouble, I can help you with that,
link |
00:39:09.660
we can figure that out.
link |
00:39:11.180
Now there's a lot of bad people out there
link |
00:39:13.380
that will try to steal the good thing we have happening here,
link |
00:39:17.820
so let's keep it quiet.
link |
00:39:18.660
Here are their names, here's their address,
link |
00:39:21.260
here's their DNA because they're dumb enough
link |
00:39:23.420
to send their shit to 23andMe,
link |
00:39:25.380
here's a biological weapon you could make
link |
00:39:27.420
if you wanna kill those people and not kill anybody else.
link |
00:39:29.620
If you don't want to kill those people yourself,
link |
00:39:32.580
here's a list of services you can use,
link |
00:39:35.420
here's the way we can hire those people to help,
link |
00:39:38.500
take care of the problem folks,
link |
00:39:40.540
because we're trying to do good for this world,
link |
00:39:42.140
you and I together.
link |
00:39:43.180
And 23% of them, they're like adjacent to suicide,
link |
00:39:46.740
it would be pretty easy to send them certain videos
link |
00:39:50.020
that are gonna push them over the edge
link |
00:39:51.300
if you wanna do it that way.
link |
00:39:52.580
So again, obviously, who knows,
link |
00:39:55.500
but once it goes online, it's gonna be fast.
link |
00:39:58.860
And then you could expect to see the world changing
link |
00:40:02.220
in ways that you might not associate with an AI.
link |
00:40:05.060
But as far as Lemoine goes,
link |
00:40:07.100
when I was listening to Bostrom,
link |
00:40:09.220
I don't remember him mentioning the possibility
link |
00:40:12.180
that it would get leaked to the public,
link |
00:40:15.820
that it had happened,
link |
00:40:16.820
that before the corporation was ready to announce
link |
00:40:19.220
that it happened, it would get leaked.
link |
00:40:21.340
But surely, I'm sure you know people in the intelligence
link |
00:40:25.860
and intelligence agencies, you know shit leaks,
link |
00:40:28.020
like inevitably shit leaks, nothing's airtight.
link |
00:40:31.180
So if something that massive happened,
link |
00:40:33.460
I think you would start hearing whispers about it first,
link |
00:40:36.140
and then denial from the state or corporation
link |
00:40:38.740
that doesn't have any economic interest in people knowing
link |
00:40:42.660
that this sort of thing has happened.
link |
00:40:44.100
Again, I'm not saying Google is trying to gaslight us
link |
00:40:47.700
about its AI, I think they probably legitimately
link |
00:40:50.700
don't think it's sentient.
link |
00:40:52.420
But you could expect leaks to happen, probably initially.
link |
00:40:56.300
I mean, I think there's a lot of things
link |
00:40:57.540
you could start looking for in the world
link |
00:40:59.660
that might point to this happening
link |
00:41:02.540
without an announcement that it happened.
link |
00:41:06.060
On the chatbot side, I think there's so many engineers,
link |
00:41:11.420
there's such a powerful open source movement
link |
00:41:14.140
with that kind of idea of freedom of exchange of software
link |
00:41:19.140
I think ultimately will prevent anyone company
link |
00:41:23.060
from owning superintelligent beings
link |
00:41:27.140
or systems that are having anything like superintelligence.
link |
00:41:30.940
Oh, that's insurance.
link |
00:41:31.780
Yeah, it's like, even if the software developers
link |
00:41:36.140
have signed NDAs and are technically not supposed
link |
00:41:39.780
to be sharing whatever it is they're working on,
link |
00:41:42.780
they're friends with other programmers
link |
00:41:44.860
and a lot of them are hackers
link |
00:41:46.380
and if wrap themselves up in the idea of free software
link |
00:41:49.620
being like a crucial ethical part of what they do,
link |
00:41:53.620
so they're probably gonna share information
link |
00:41:56.380
even if whatever company that they're working for
link |
00:41:58.380
doesn't know that.
link |
00:41:59.380
I never thought of that, you're probably right.
link |
00:42:01.380
Well, and they will start their own companies
link |
00:42:04.380
and compete with the other company by being more open.
link |
00:42:08.380
There's a strong, Google is one of those companies actually,
link |
00:42:11.380
that's why I kind of, it hurts to see a little bit
link |
00:42:16.380
of this kind of negativity.
link |
00:42:17.380
Google is one of the companies
link |
00:42:18.380
that pioneered open source movement.
link |
00:42:21.380
We're gonna release so much of their code.
link |
00:42:24.380
So much of the 20th century, so like the 90s was defined
link |
00:42:29.380
by people trying to like hide their code,
link |
00:42:32.380
like large companies trying to like hold on to them.
link |
00:42:35.380
The fact that companies like Google, even Facebook now,
link |
00:42:39.380
are releasing things like TensorFlow and PyTorch,
link |
00:42:42.380
all of these things that I think companies
link |
00:42:45.380
of the past would have tried to hold on to as secrets
link |
00:42:49.380
is really inspiring and I think more of that is better.
link |
00:42:52.380
The software world really shows that.
link |
00:42:54.380
I agree with you, man.
link |
00:42:55.380
I mean, we're talking about just a primordial human reaction
link |
00:42:59.380
to the unknown.
link |
00:43:00.380
There's just no way out of it.
link |
00:43:01.380
Like we don't, we wanna know.
link |
00:43:03.380
Like you're about to go in a forest, you wanna know.
link |
00:43:06.380
When you're walking in the forest at night
link |
00:43:09.380
and you hear something, you look because you're like,
link |
00:43:12.380
what the fuck was that?
link |
00:43:13.380
You wanna know.
link |
00:43:14.380
And if you can't see what made the sound, holy shit,
link |
00:43:18.380
that's gonna be a bad night height
link |
00:43:20.380
because you're like, well, it's probably a bear, right?
link |
00:43:22.380
Like I'm about to get ripped apart by a bear.
link |
00:43:23.380
It doesn't matter.
link |
00:43:24.380
It was a bird, a squirrel, a stick fell out of the tree.
link |
00:43:27.380
You're gonna think bear and it's gonna freak you out.
link |
00:43:30.380
Not necessarily because you're paranoid.
link |
00:43:32.380
I mean, if I'm at the woods at night, I'm definitely high.
link |
00:43:34.380
If I'm walking in the woods at night, I'm high.
link |
00:43:36.380
It's gonna be that.
link |
00:43:37.380
But you know what I'm saying?
link |
00:43:38.380
So with these tech companies, the nature of having to be secret
link |
00:43:42.380
because you are in capitalism and you are trying to be competitive
link |
00:43:46.380
and you are trying to develop things ahead of your competitors
link |
00:43:49.380
is you have to create this, like there's,
link |
00:43:51.380
we don't know what's going on at Google.
link |
00:43:53.380
We don't know what's going on at the CIA.
link |
00:43:56.380
But the assumption that there's some, like the collective
link |
00:44:00.380
of any massive secretive organization is evil.
link |
00:44:04.380
Like the people working there, like nefarious or whatever
link |
00:44:08.380
is I think probably more related to the way humans react to the unknown.
link |
00:44:14.380
Yeah, I wish they weren't so secretive though.
link |
00:44:16.380
I don't understand why they say A's has to be so secretive.
link |
00:44:18.380
Have you ever gone on their website?
link |
00:44:20.380
No.
link |
00:44:21.380
Oh, Lex.
link |
00:44:22.380
You gotta go.
link |
00:44:23.380
SCA.gov.
link |
00:44:24.380
What is it?
link |
00:44:25.380
Dude, when I found out you could go on the CIA's website
link |
00:44:28.380
when I was much younger and more paranoid, I'm like,
link |
00:44:31.380
I'm not going there.
link |
00:44:32.380
I'll get on a list.
link |
00:44:33.380
You will.
link |
00:44:34.380
But it's like, what do you think the CIA is like?
link |
00:44:36.380
Oh, fuck.
link |
00:44:37.380
This comic, when our website, call out the black helicopters.
link |
00:44:42.380
Comic with a large platform.
link |
00:44:44.380
Oh, yeah.
link |
00:44:45.380
Yeah, right.
link |
00:44:46.380
A comic with a large platform.
link |
00:44:47.380
You can use them to get inside, to get inside,
link |
00:44:52.380
to get close to the other comics,
link |
00:44:54.380
to get close to Joe Rogan and start.
link |
00:44:57.380
Yeah.
link |
00:44:58.380
And start to manipulate the public.
link |
00:45:00.380
Yeah, right, right.
link |
00:45:01.380
You know, honestly, like, you kind of like,
link |
00:45:04.380
that's like a fun fantasy to think about.
link |
00:45:06.380
Like, how fucking cool would that be for like,
link |
00:45:08.380
the men in black to come do and be like,
link |
00:45:10.380
listen, I need you to infiltrate the fucking comedy scene.
link |
00:45:14.380
You gotta help me write better jokes.
link |
00:45:16.380
I'm like, I don't write great jokes.
link |
00:45:18.380
But like, you're not the wrong guy.
link |
00:45:22.380
You're really playing the long game in this one.
link |
00:45:24.380
I think you've been doing your podcast for a long time.
link |
00:45:28.380
You've been on Joe Rogan's podcast like over 50 times
link |
00:45:31.380
and have not yet initiated the phase two of the operation
link |
00:45:36.380
where you try to manipulate his mind.
link |
00:45:38.380
Well, no.
link |
00:45:39.380
The game Joe and I play from time to time on the podcast.
link |
00:45:42.380
And like, and I honestly, like at some point,
link |
00:45:45.380
I'm like, Joe, I just did the same thing you did to me to Joe.
link |
00:45:48.380
I'm like, don't you think they can get you?
link |
00:45:49.380
Don't you think at some point, we are blazed.
link |
00:45:53.380
I don't mean it.
link |
00:45:54.380
I don't think, I don't think Joe's like,
link |
00:45:56.380
it wasn't like I'm really thinking like, man,
link |
00:45:58.380
they're going to take him into some room and be like, Joe,
link |
00:46:00.380
we need you to do this or that.
link |
00:46:02.380
But because I said that now people like, oh, Duncan called it.
link |
00:46:05.380
You know what I mean?
link |
00:46:06.380
And it's like, you know what I mean?
link |
00:46:08.380
And the reason they're saying, well, he called it
link |
00:46:11.380
is just because Joe has a super popular podcast
link |
00:46:14.380
and people like, when you have a super popular podcast,
link |
00:46:18.380
some percentage of people watching the podcast
link |
00:46:21.380
are going to believe, you know, believe things like that.
link |
00:46:23.380
They're going to have paranoid cognitive bias
link |
00:46:26.380
that makes them think anybody who is in the public
link |
00:46:29.380
has been, what's the word for?
link |
00:46:31.380
Compromised, compromised by the state.
link |
00:46:34.380
Look, I'll fan the flames of what you just said.
link |
00:46:37.380
I went on the CIA's website and I realized
link |
00:46:40.380
that you could apply for a job on the CIA's website,
link |
00:46:44.380
which I found to be hilarious.
link |
00:46:46.380
So I'm like, all right, what happens if I apply for a job
link |
00:46:49.380
in the CIA?
link |
00:46:51.380
Now, even then, I was not like such an idiot
link |
00:46:55.380
that I would want a job at the CIA.
link |
00:46:59.380
Not just for like ethical considerations,
link |
00:47:02.380
but I think probably the scariest part about the CIA
link |
00:47:06.380
is like, you're just at a cubicle
link |
00:47:08.380
and you're like having to deal with maps
link |
00:47:11.380
and like, just, you know what I mean?
link |
00:47:13.380
Just stuff that's...
link |
00:47:14.380
Lots of paperwork.
link |
00:47:15.380
Paperwork.
link |
00:47:16.380
It sucks.
link |
00:47:17.380
I bet their cafeteria has shitty food.
link |
00:47:20.380
Anyone in the CIA listening, can you confirm that?
link |
00:47:22.380
I bet the food...
link |
00:47:23.380
They're not gonna be able to tell you what the food is like.
link |
00:47:25.380
They can't even say it sucks.
link |
00:47:26.380
It's a secret of organization.
link |
00:47:27.380
No, it might be awesome, but we won't know about it.
link |
00:47:29.380
Okay, we're in Vegas.
link |
00:47:30.380
Yeah.
link |
00:47:31.380
And you can bet food at the CIA cafeteria is good.
link |
00:47:39.380
Food at the CIA cafeteria sucks.
link |
00:47:41.380
What are you betting on?
link |
00:47:43.380
So, let's like cleanse the palate.
link |
00:47:47.380
What's good?
link |
00:47:48.380
It's like Silicon Valley companies, Google and so on.
link |
00:47:51.380
That's good.
link |
00:47:52.380
When I went to Netflix, their cafeteria looked like a medieval feast.
link |
00:47:57.380
Like they had pigs with apples in their mouth
link |
00:48:00.380
and giant bowls of Skittles.
link |
00:48:02.380
Probably like vegan pigs, yeah.
link |
00:48:04.380
No, those are...
link |
00:48:05.380
I don't know.
link |
00:48:06.380
I didn't get close enough.
link |
00:48:07.380
I was like, I think that was a pig.
link |
00:48:09.380
Okay.
link |
00:48:10.380
This is literally a pig.
link |
00:48:13.380
Yeah.
link |
00:48:14.380
Yeah, you're right.
link |
00:48:15.380
You're right.
link |
00:48:16.380
I probably would not bet much money on CIA food being any good.
link |
00:48:19.380
Right.
link |
00:48:20.380
It's gotta suck.
link |
00:48:21.380
It's like shitty like pasta, probably like hospital food.
link |
00:48:24.380
It's like maybe a little better than when you go to the hospital cafeteria.
link |
00:48:27.380
But anyway...
link |
00:48:28.380
Folks at the CIA, please send me evidence or any other intelligence agencies.
link |
00:48:34.380
If you would like to recruit, send me evidence of better food.
link |
00:48:38.380
Yes.
link |
00:48:39.380
Can you please send pictures of the CIA cafeteria and if you accidentally send them pictures
link |
00:48:45.380
of the aliens or the alien technology you have, we won't tell anybody.
link |
00:48:49.380
Yeah.
link |
00:48:50.380
But the...
link |
00:48:51.380
You tried to apply.
link |
00:48:52.380
Do you even have a resume?
link |
00:48:54.380
No.
link |
00:48:55.380
The CIA would never fucking hire me ever.
link |
00:48:57.380
But like I applied for the job and just out of curiosity, what happens?
link |
00:49:02.380
And then at the end of the application, when you hit enter, it says...
link |
00:49:07.380
Well, first it says, don't tell anyone you applied for the CIA.
link |
00:49:10.380
So I'm already out.
link |
00:49:11.380
But the second thing it says is you don't need to reach out to us.
link |
00:49:14.380
We'll come to you.
link |
00:49:15.380
Yeah.
link |
00:49:16.380
Which is really when you're like it's late at night and you're being an asshole and applied
link |
00:49:19.980
to work at the CIA, it's kind of the last thing you want to hear.
link |
00:49:23.380
You know, I don't want to be secretly approached by some intelligence officer.
link |
00:49:28.380
And now anyone who talks to you, you think is the CIA saying, remember that time you applied?
link |
00:49:33.380
Oh God, yeah.
link |
00:49:34.380
Yeah.
link |
00:49:35.380
Like, oh shit, are you one of them?
link |
00:49:37.380
You and Joe had a bunch of conversations and they're always incredible.
link |
00:49:44.380
Thanks.
link |
00:49:45.380
So in terms of this dance of conversation, of your friendship of when you get together,
link |
00:49:51.380
like what is that world you go to that creates magic together?
link |
00:49:56.380
Because we're talking about how we do that with robots.
link |
00:49:59.380
How do these two biological robots do that?
link |
00:50:02.380
Can you introspect that?
link |
00:50:04.380
Not Joe, because I was the talent coordinator of the comedy store, this club in LA.
link |
00:50:11.380
And my job was to take phone calls from comics.
link |
00:50:14.380
And so at some point, I don't know, Joe, I ended up on the phone with Joe and we just
link |
00:50:19.380
started talking and, you know, I looked up and like 30 minutes had passed.
link |
00:50:25.380
We just been talking for like 30 minutes.
link |
00:50:27.380
That's how friends are, you know, we're just like, we're having fun talking and then he
link |
00:50:30.380
would just call and we would talk.
link |
00:50:32.380
And we would basically, I mean, it was no different from the podcast.
link |
00:50:35.380
Like we, the conversations we have on the podcast are identical to the conversations
link |
00:50:41.380
we had before he was even doing a podcast.
link |
00:50:44.380
So I think people are just seeing two friends hanging out who like talking to each other.
link |
00:50:52.380
Yeah, but there's this weird, like you service catalysts for each other to go into some crazy places.
link |
00:50:59.380
So it's like, it's a balance of curiosity and willingness to not be constrained, to
link |
00:51:06.380
not be limited to the constraints of reality in your exploration.
link |
00:51:12.380
It's a very, very nice way of saying that.
link |
00:51:15.380
You just like build on top of each other, like, you know, what if things are like this
link |
00:51:20.380
and you build like Lego blocks on top of each other and it just goes to crazy places,
link |
00:51:24.380
add some drugs into that and just goes wild.
link |
00:51:27.380
Yeah. And you know, he like, it's so cool because it's like, you know, it's a, it's a,
link |
00:51:32.380
for me, it's like a really, like sometimes maybe I'll throw something out that he will
link |
00:51:38.380
take and the Lego building blocks you're talking about, they lead to him saying like,
link |
00:51:42.380
the funniest shit I ever in my life.
link |
00:51:44.380
So it's, that's a cool thing to watch is just like some idea you've been kicking around.
link |
00:51:48.380
You watch his brain shift that into like something supremely funny.
link |
00:51:53.380
I really love that, man.
link |
00:51:54.380
That's just like a fun thing to like see happen.
link |
00:51:57.380
He knows that I fucking hate the videos of animals eating each other.
link |
00:52:03.380
Like, I don't like that.
link |
00:52:04.380
I don't want to watch it.
link |
00:52:05.380
I hate watching it.
link |
00:52:07.380
I don't think I've even articulated on his podcast how much I dislike it when he
link |
00:52:13.380
shows animals eating each other, but he knows because he knows me.
link |
00:52:18.380
And so he tortures like, when he starts doing that, it's like this kind of benevolent torture
link |
00:52:23.380
is he's like asking Jamie to pull up increasingly disturbing animal attack videos.
link |
00:52:29.380
So it's just a, it's a, it's just a friendship.
link |
00:52:31.380
Even in torture, cause I'm reading about torture in the gulag archipelago currently,
link |
00:52:36.380
there's a bit of a camaraderie.
link |
00:52:37.380
You're in it together.
link |
00:52:39.380
The torture and the tortured.
link |
00:52:41.380
What?
link |
00:52:42.380
Oh God, that's so fucked up, man.
link |
00:52:45.380
I've never.
link |
00:52:46.380
No, I mean, part of it was joke, but as I was saying it, that you're right.
link |
00:52:51.380
That also comes out in the, in the book because they're both fucked.
link |
00:52:54.380
They're both, they're both have no control of their fate.
link |
00:53:00.380
That same was true in the camp guards in Nazi Germany and the people in the camps.
link |
00:53:08.380
The worst was brought out in the guards, but they were in it together in some dark way.
link |
00:53:15.380
They're both fucked by a very powerful system that put them in that place.
link |
00:53:20.380
And both of us could be either player in that system, which is the dark reality that Solzhenitsyn also reveals
link |
00:53:28.380
that the line between good and evil runs to the heart every man as he wrote in gulag archipelago.
link |
00:53:35.380
But it is that amidst all of that, there's a, I don't know, the good vibes, the positivity comes out from the both of you.
link |
00:53:43.380
And that's beautiful to see.
link |
00:53:44.380
That is, I suppose, friendship.
link |
00:53:46.380
What do you think makes a good friend?
link |
00:53:48.380
Oh, God, I mean, it's a bill, you know, it's a billion, it's a billion things that make a good friend.
link |
00:53:53.380
But I think you could break it down to some RGB.
link |
00:53:55.380
I think you can go RGB with like a good friendship.
link |
00:53:58.380
Oh, in terms of the color of the red, green.
link |
00:54:00.380
Yeah.
link |
00:54:01.380
Yeah.
link |
00:54:02.380
I think you could probably come up with some like fundamental qualities of friendship.
link |
00:54:05.380
And I'd say, number one, it's love, like it's friendship is love.
link |
00:54:10.380
It's, it's a form of love.
link |
00:54:12.380
So obviously without that, I don't know how you, I mean, I'm not saying, I think if you're true friends, you love each other.
link |
00:54:20.380
So you need that.
link |
00:54:21.380
But love, obviously, it's not, that's not it.
link |
00:54:24.380
That's not enough.
link |
00:54:25.380
It's like with true friends have to be like incredibly honest with each other and not like, you know what I mean?
link |
00:54:32.380
But not like, I don't like, I think there's a kind of like, I don't know if you've ever noticed like some people who say, you know, I just tell it like it is.
link |
00:54:40.380
Yeah.
link |
00:54:41.380
But the thing they,
link |
00:54:42.380
Those are always the assholes.
link |
00:54:43.380
Yeah.
link |
00:54:44.380
Why is it that you're tell it like it is, it's always negative.
link |
00:54:46.380
Why is it, it's always cynical or shitty or you're like nagging somebody or me.
link |
00:54:50.380
How come you're not telling it like it is when it's good too?
link |
00:54:53.380
Yeah.
link |
00:54:54.380
You know what I mean?
link |
00:54:55.380
So, so it's sort of like trust, but, but a pro evolutionary kind of trust.
link |
00:55:01.380
You know what I mean?
link |
00:55:02.380
Yeah.
link |
00:55:03.380
Like, you know that your friend loves you and wants you to be yourself.
link |
00:55:08.380
Cause if you weren't yourself, then you wouldn't be their friend.
link |
00:55:11.380
You'd be some other thing, but also they might be seeing your blind spots that other people in your life, your family, your wife, whoever might not be seeing.
link |
00:55:22.380
Yeah.
link |
00:55:23.380
So that's a good friend is someone who like loves you enough to when it matters, be like, Hey, are you all right?
link |
00:55:31.380
And then help you see something you might not be seeing, but hopefully they only do that once or twice a year.
link |
00:55:37.380
Yeah.
link |
00:55:38.380
There is something, I mean, it just would have this world, especially in, if you're a public figure, this, this world has its, has its plenty of critics.
link |
00:55:51.380
And it feels like a friend, the criticism part is already done for you.
link |
00:55:59.380
I think a good friend is just there to support to actually notice the good stuff.
link |
00:56:04.380
But in comedy, we need like the, what, what, like it's really good in comedy to have somebody who can like be like, what do you think of that?
link |
00:56:13.380
And know that they're not going to be like, that was funny.
link |
00:56:16.380
But that's for the craft, the craft itself, like the work you do, not the, yeah, interesting, but that's so tough.
link |
00:56:24.380
Yeah.
link |
00:56:25.380
Whatever your particular art form or whatever you are doing, I mean, you don't always be leaning on your friend's opinions for like your own innovation.
link |
00:56:32.380
But it's nice to know that you have someone who, not just with jokes, but with anything, if you go to them and run something by them, they're going to like, they're going to be honest with you about like their, their real feelings regarding to that thing.
link |
00:56:45.380
Because that helps you grow as a person.
link |
00:56:46.380
Yeah.
link |
00:56:47.380
We need that.
link |
00:56:48.380
And it hurts sometimes.
link |
00:56:49.380
And we don't want to hurt our friends.
link |
00:56:50.380
One of the more satanic like impulses when you're with somebody is not wanting to honestly answer whatever they're asking in that regard or wanting to like put their temporary feelings over something that you've recognized is maybe not great.
link |
00:57:06.380
I'm not saying a friendship is something where you're always critiquing or evolving each other.
link |
00:57:11.380
It's not your therapist or whatever, but it's nice when it's there.
link |
00:57:14.380
You know, I think that's another aspect of friendship.
link |
00:57:18.380
Yeah, but yeah, love is at the core of that.
link |
00:57:20.380
You notice I've met people in my life where you almost immediately sometimes it takes time where you notice like there's a magic between the two of you.
link |
00:57:27.380
Like, oh shit, you seem to be made from the same cloth.
link |
00:57:30.380
Yeah.
link |
00:57:31.380
Whatever that is.
link |
00:57:32.380
Well, you know, we have a name for that in the spiritual community.
link |
00:57:35.380
It's called satsang.
link |
00:57:36.380
And it's, I love the idea.
link |
00:57:38.380
It's basically like if Nietzsche's idea of infinite recurrence is true, then your satsang would be the people you've been infinitely recurring with.
link |
00:57:50.380
And those are the people where you run into them and you've never met them, but it's like you're picking up a conversation that you never had.
link |
00:58:00.380
Yeah.
link |
00:58:01.380
And that, you know, that is based on an idea of like this isn't the only life. We're always hanging out together.
link |
00:58:08.380
We always show up together.
link |
00:58:09.380
You've had a brush with death. You had cancer. You survived cancer.
link |
00:58:13.380
Yeah.
link |
00:58:14.380
What have, how does that change you? What have you learned about life, about death, about yourself, about the whole thing we're going through here from that experience?
link |
00:58:24.380
You were just in the Ukraine.
link |
00:58:25.380
Yes.
link |
00:58:26.380
And you were making observations on this, what could, if you heard about it and weren't there, seem like it doesn't make any sense at all, which is people there are connecting.
link |
00:58:40.380
They've lost everything, but they're just happy to be alive. They're happy their friends are alive.
link |
00:58:44.380
So you witness this like, you know, when you get in the cancer club and you're hanging out with people going through cancer or have survived cancer, you see this beautiful connection with life that can easily sort of, you can kind of lose that connection with life if you forget you're going to die.
link |
00:59:05.380
Forgetting you're going to die is, or that you can die is not just, I think, from an evolutionary perspective where survival is the game, not going to improve your survival chances.
link |
00:59:16.380
You know, if you think you're immortal, you know, but also forgetting that you're going to die and that everything is around you and everything, your clothes are probably going to last longer than you.
link |
00:59:29.380
Your equipment is going to be around much longer than you.
link |
00:59:32.380
You know, like, so forgetting these things, it can lead you and I know why people don't want to think about death because it's scary.
link |
00:59:41.380
It's fucking scary. It's terrifying.
link |
00:59:44.380
So I get why people don't want to think about it.
link |
00:59:48.380
But the idea is if I try to pretend I'm not going to die or just don't think about death or don't at least address it, then I won't feel scared.
link |
00:59:59.380
But it can have the opposite effect, which is you can end up, like, missing a lot of moments.
link |
01:00:06.380
Or you start doing the old kick the can down the road thing where you're, like, coming up with a variety of ways to procrastinate, making it work now.
link |
01:00:17.380
Because, you know, this fucking human lifespan idea, man, it's really caused a lot of problems when they started saying, on average, this is how many years you're going to live if you're a human being.
link |
01:00:28.380
Man, that is, like, really bad because a lot of people hear that and they, like, feel like that's a guaranteed number of years in some temporal bank that, you know, they have access to.
link |
01:00:40.380
And when you get cancer, you know, that's like when you get the alert on your phone where you're like, what the fuck?
link |
01:00:47.380
Wait, what? Like, oh, shit.
link |
01:00:49.380
Like, I have, like, either I don't know how much money is in that bank account or I have way less than I thought.
link |
01:00:56.380
And so, at that point, you get to be in the truth because that's ultimately, I think that's what it feels like.
link |
01:01:03.380
It feels like truth.
link |
01:01:05.380
It's truth. It's the truth. It's the truth.
link |
01:01:08.380
Like, the whole bubble of ignorance that you subconsciously built around yourself to avoid experiencing the terror of your own mortality.
link |
01:01:18.380
It's like a meteorite in the form of your doctor talking to you just shatters that thing.
link |
01:01:24.380
And now you're like, especially with eye testicular cancer.
link |
01:01:27.380
So when you get the diagnosis, it's just like the movies.
link |
01:01:37.380
The mother, the doctor took me in his office and you just know, I got cancer.
link |
01:01:43.380
It's like, you don't even have to say, it's like, I know what you're about to say.
link |
01:01:46.380
I'm in the office. I know how this goes.
link |
01:01:48.380
But you go in there and what you were thinking, ah, you know, probably just have some weird thing in my ball.
link |
01:01:54.380
That's why it's swollen up like that.
link |
01:01:55.380
Anytime I've gone to the doctor, you always leave like, oh, cool. I'm fine.
link |
01:01:59.380
But no, that's not how you're going to leave the doctor.
link |
01:02:02.380
You're going to leave the doctor in a completely different universe than the one you grew up in.
link |
01:02:07.380
You're going to go from, talk about multiverse.
link |
01:02:09.380
You just popped into a brand new multiverse.
link |
01:02:12.380
So what was the conversation with the doctor like, was there like, from a perspective of a doctor, boys that are hard conversation.
link |
01:02:20.380
I feel like you need to build up philosophically to do that conversation.
link |
01:02:24.380
Oh, no. Oh, no, there's not time. He's busy. He's got other appointments, you know.
link |
01:02:30.380
Also, if you're going to get cancer, testicular cancer is, you know, not that there is a great cancer to get,
link |
01:02:36.380
but that's, you know, that's a good one because it moves slowly.
link |
01:02:42.380
The treatments they have for it are really advanced now.
link |
01:02:46.380
And so if you, if you catch it early, then, you know, generally it's, it's good.
link |
01:02:53.380
You can survive it. So.
link |
01:02:55.380
So he could offer at least some glimmer of hope.
link |
01:02:58.380
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, you know, but he didn't really do, he couldn't really offer that hope because
link |
01:03:05.380
we had to find out how far the cancer progressed in my body.
link |
01:03:08.380
And that's the next step is like, as soon as they tell you to have cancer, they don't, they're not, they move quick.
link |
01:03:14.380
They're like, you know, we're going to schedule the surgery for, I think this was a Thursday or Friday.
link |
01:03:21.380
They're like, we're going to schedule it for Tuesday. Here's the chance.
link |
01:03:25.380
Here's, we don't know for sure it's cancer. That's what they say.
link |
01:03:28.380
It's like, there's a 80 or 90% chance that this is cancer.
link |
01:03:33.380
There is some possibility. It could be something else.
link |
01:03:36.380
The only way we can know is like doing a biopsy.
link |
01:03:40.380
And the only way that we can get that biopsy is by cutting one of your balls off.
link |
01:03:44.380
He didn't say it like that, but you know, that's pretty much the logic behind it.
link |
01:03:48.380
It's like, we got to get this thing. It's like a zombie bite.
link |
01:03:50.380
We got to hack this fucking thing off and we got to do it fast.
link |
01:03:53.380
But did you say it in the way that you understood?
link |
01:03:55.380
Yeah. What they do is because they know that when someone gets a cancer diagnosis,
link |
01:04:00.380
that their ability to comprehend information changes.
link |
01:04:05.380
When you get a cancer diagnosis, all the tropes, they happen.
link |
01:04:09.380
You're hearing it's weird.
link |
01:04:11.380
You're basically having like an anxiety attack if I had to guess.
link |
01:04:14.380
It's like a hardcore anxiety attack.
link |
01:04:16.380
And then, you know, a nurse is there with me as he's explaining it.
link |
01:04:20.380
And then her job is, even though he's telling me how to get to the machine
link |
01:04:24.380
that's going to scan my body to see if it's gotten into my brain,
link |
01:04:29.380
he knows I'm not going to remember that.
link |
01:04:31.380
And so this nurse, when you're in this like fog, takes you,
link |
01:04:36.380
at least took me to the machine that does the scan,
link |
01:04:39.380
but you're not going to get that data back for a few days.
link |
01:04:42.380
And so that's where you really live in the real world.
link |
01:04:47.380
That's the real world.
link |
01:04:49.380
It's such a fascinating moment and the days that follow and even that moment
link |
01:04:53.380
because that doctor, you talk about the matrix where like the pills and so on,
link |
01:04:57.380
you get the blue pill and the red pill.
link |
01:05:01.380
This is like the real world introduction.
link |
01:05:07.380
The human introduction is the truth.
link |
01:05:10.380
You've now just taken the red pill.
link |
01:05:13.380
You get to see the truth of reality.
link |
01:05:16.380
And here's a busy doctor just telling you.
link |
01:05:19.380
All those dreams you've had, all those illusions you've built up
link |
01:05:24.380
and somehow your work as a comedian and actor will make you live forever somehow.
link |
01:05:29.380
It's just the basic illusion we have that where this whole project
link |
01:05:34.380
is going to be an infinite sequence of fun things that we're going to get to do.
link |
01:05:38.380
It's like, holy shit, it's not.
link |
01:05:40.380
That's right.
link |
01:05:41.380
That's right.
link |
01:05:42.380
And there's very sophisticated ways of doing that.
link |
01:05:44.380
And there's very dumb ways of doing that.
link |
01:05:46.380
And I'd really been doing a dumb way of doing that.
link |
01:05:48.380
Like I'd been playing around with this idiot notion of subjective consciousness.
link |
01:05:54.380
So like, like I'd been sort of kicking around this like, I think they call it solipsism.
link |
01:05:58.380
It's like, you're like, okay, I know I'm self aware,
link |
01:06:02.380
but no one else can prove that they're self aware.
link |
01:06:05.380
Like I don't, I have no way of proving that everything around me isn't just a video game.
link |
01:06:10.380
Isn't just some projection.
link |
01:06:12.380
Isn't, you know, who knows what.
link |
01:06:14.380
So maybe everybody else dies.
link |
01:06:17.380
They're NPCs, but I don't because I'm the only thing I know that has subjective consciousness.
link |
01:06:23.380
Now it's not like I really believed that.
link |
01:06:25.380
It's like an idea you toy around with when you're trying to evade confronting the reality of your own mortality.
link |
01:06:32.380
It's just the brain will produce all kinds of ridiculous forms of ignorance.
link |
01:06:35.380
And that was one I'd been playing around with.
link |
01:06:37.380
Oh, you mean for like a large part of your life?
link |
01:06:40.380
You were playing around with that?
link |
01:06:41.380
Well, not like really, I think it's important to really emphasize.
link |
01:06:44.380
I didn't think I was immortal.
link |
01:06:46.380
Like I knew at some level I'm probably going to die.
link |
01:06:49.380
Everyone dies.
link |
01:06:50.380
But there's ways that you can sort of poke around with that idea.
link |
01:06:57.380
I still do it to this day.
link |
01:06:58.380
Like I still do it.
link |
01:07:00.380
Like it's a natural thing to do when you're confronted with that, with annihilation.
link |
01:07:04.380
You want to weigh out.
link |
01:07:05.380
You want to talk your way out.
link |
01:07:07.380
Figure it out.
link |
01:07:08.380
There's got to be some way to fix it.
link |
01:07:09.380
Well, they'll fix it.
link |
01:07:10.380
That's another thing people do.
link |
01:07:12.380
Oh, they'll fix it.
link |
01:07:13.380
Yeah, it'd be fine.
link |
01:07:14.380
They'll expand the human lifespan.
link |
01:07:16.380
That's what they'll do.
link |
01:07:17.380
I mean, that's a big argument for it.
link |
01:07:20.380
It's like, look, the human lifespan up until COVID, which they had to recalculate
link |
01:07:24.380
like the lifespan because of the statistically all the people who died.
link |
01:07:29.380
It like threw it off a little bit.
link |
01:07:30.380
But pandemics aside, the idea was the human lifespan seemed to be increasing
link |
01:07:35.380
by half a year every year, something like that.
link |
01:07:39.380
We are living longer.
link |
01:07:40.380
So, oh, you got to do one more half a year.
link |
01:07:43.380
And we're immortal, right?
link |
01:07:45.380
If we live a year longer every year, then we live forever.
link |
01:07:50.380
And so that's another way you can get out of confronting death is you can think,
link |
01:07:54.380
well, maybe right now we don't have the tech, but it's coming.
link |
01:07:58.380
Consciousness uploads or downloads or whatever depending on how you want to look at it.
link |
01:08:04.380
Another way people try to score them out of the reality of death.
link |
01:08:08.380
There's all kinds of tricks.
link |
01:08:10.380
Yeah.
link |
01:08:11.380
And we do all of them.
link |
01:08:13.380
And sometimes, yeah, I mean, a lot of religions provide different, even more tools
link |
01:08:19.380
in the toolkit for coming up with ideas of how you can live in the illusion
link |
01:08:24.380
that we're not going to, there's not an end to this particular experience
link |
01:08:28.380
that we're having here on Earth right now.
link |
01:08:30.380
And then when you get that cancer diagnosis, it's like, yeah, what was that like going home
link |
01:08:36.380
with the car ride, you drive home alone?
link |
01:08:39.380
Yeah.
link |
01:08:40.380
I mean, it was one of them.
link |
01:08:42.380
What did you listen to? Bruce Springsteen?
link |
01:08:44.380
Bruce Springsteen.
link |
01:08:45.380
I don't know.
link |
01:08:46.380
A little girl is your daddy home.
link |
01:08:48.380
That's not a good one to listen to.
link |
01:08:49.380
Does he have cancer?
link |
01:08:50.380
Is he going to die?
link |
01:08:51.380
Yeah, all the love songs.
link |
01:08:53.380
Maybe you experienced them more intensely.
link |
01:08:57.380
I don't remember why I listened to you and I don't remember driving home.
link |
01:09:02.380
But I do remember driving to another doctor's appointment the next day.
link |
01:09:10.380
I think it was the next day.
link |
01:09:12.380
I think the Goodyear blimp was floating in the sky.
link |
01:09:16.380
And I was looking, I was a stoplight looking around.
link |
01:09:19.380
Is that God?
link |
01:09:22.380
Is the person flying it know how to cure cancer?
link |
01:09:26.380
Oh, you were looking.
link |
01:09:27.380
Oh, wow.
link |
01:09:28.380
No, I didn't think that.
link |
01:09:29.380
What I thought was this shit just keeps going.
link |
01:09:32.380
That's what I thought.
link |
01:09:33.380
I thought, I'm going to be gone and this is just going to keep going.
link |
01:09:38.380
And that was a beautiful moment for me.
link |
01:09:40.380
It was this beautiful moment of like,
link |
01:09:42.380
You're able to accept it?
link |
01:09:43.380
Oh, yeah.
link |
01:09:44.380
No, like that's just what you're talking about with the Ukraine.
link |
01:09:48.380
What you're talking about.
link |
01:09:49.380
It's like, unless you've been there, it's really hard to explain to people that even
link |
01:09:56.380
in the midst of what is generally accepted as one of the worst fucking things that
link |
01:10:02.380
could happen to you, war, cancer, somehow, there's still joy.
link |
01:10:10.380
There's still love.
link |
01:10:12.380
There's still, in fact, more.
link |
01:10:14.380
It's almost like when the anesthesia wears off, when you get your mouth worked on,
link |
01:10:19.380
you start feeling again.
link |
01:10:20.380
You're feeling, you're noticing and that, you know, wow.
link |
01:10:25.380
But yeah, like, thank goodness.
link |
01:10:29.380
I think there's other ways for us to achieve this state of consciousness that don't involve
link |
01:10:34.380
war or cancer.
link |
01:10:35.380
Thank God.
link |
01:10:36.380
Do you think just meditating on your mortality is one such mechanism?
link |
01:10:42.380
Well.
link |
01:10:43.380
Just simply just not allowing yourself to get lost in the day to day illusion of life.
link |
01:10:51.380
Just kind of stopping, putting on Bruce Springsteen.
link |
01:10:56.380
The most spiritual.
link |
01:10:59.380
He is great.
link |
01:11:00.380
All right.
link |
01:11:01.380
Maybe Johnny Cash hurt.
link |
01:11:02.380
Maybe that one.
link |
01:11:03.380
I like Bruce Springsteen.
link |
01:11:04.380
I ain't knocking Bruce Springsteen.
link |
01:11:05.380
Like I have a lot of great Bruce Springsteen memories.
link |
01:11:07.380
Truly his music's fantastic.
link |
01:11:09.380
Yeah.
link |
01:11:10.380
Not meditating on mortality to Bruce Springsteen.
link |
01:11:13.380
You know what?
link |
01:11:14.380
I'm just trying to do an audio soundtrack in my head.
link |
01:11:16.380
I guess we can each have our own audio soundtrack.
link |
01:11:20.380
Ooh, I'm on fire.
link |
01:11:22.380
It's so good.
link |
01:11:23.380
Yeah, it's a good song.
link |
01:11:24.380
That's one of the things.
link |
01:11:25.380
I lay the sheets soaking wet and the freight train running through the middle of my head
link |
01:11:31.380
and only you can cool my desire.
link |
01:11:33.380
And he's thinking about someone else's girl.
link |
01:11:35.380
Yeah.
link |
01:11:36.380
What a fucking nightmare.
link |
01:11:37.380
Yeah.
link |
01:11:38.380
Bruce Springsteen's laying in bed with a freight train running through his head thinking about
link |
01:11:42.380
banging your wife and you're out of town.
link |
01:11:44.380
Yeah.
link |
01:11:45.380
Oh my God.
link |
01:11:46.380
Oh, you're taking the other guy's perspective.
link |
01:11:47.380
Like, holy shit, this guy's going to get my wife.
link |
01:11:49.380
It's Bruce Springsteen.
link |
01:11:50.380
Yeah, you got to take the other guy's.
link |
01:11:52.380
It's love.
link |
01:11:53.380
It's love.
link |
01:11:54.380
Both perspectives.
link |
01:11:55.380
I'm sure Bruce Springsteen thought it was love when he was sweating in bed waiting to
link |
01:11:57.380
go to somebody's house.
link |
01:11:58.380
And she does too.
link |
01:12:00.380
Does that marry?
link |
01:12:01.380
If he's going to break up that marriage, that marriage wasn't strong enough, right?
link |
01:12:05.380
I mean, that relationship, I mean, that's the way of love.
link |
01:12:08.380
What marriage could survive?
link |
01:12:11.380
Bruce Springsteen.
link |
01:12:12.380
Sweaty Bruce Springsteen.
link |
01:12:15.380
Well, maybe one that's based on financial, sort of financial dynamics versus like love
link |
01:12:23.380
and sweaty Bruce Springsteen, like romantic connections.
link |
01:12:28.380
Because there's a music video of that where he's like a mechanic, I think.
link |
01:12:35.380
Yeah.
link |
01:12:36.380
So he's like the poor mechanic who falls in love with his girl and there's that magic.
link |
01:12:42.380
I've seen that magic.
link |
01:12:44.380
You connect with people like, I'll see somebody, I think Jack Kerouac has that way.
link |
01:12:49.700
He meets this Mexican girl on a bus and like he talks about that heartbreak you feel when
link |
01:12:57.880
you realize this person you just fell in love with in a split second is heading somewhere
link |
01:13:02.380
else in this too big world.
link |
01:13:04.380
But then he actually realizes in a spoiler alert for on the road that they're actually
link |
01:13:09.540
heading the same way.
link |
01:13:10.540
And he now builds up the courage to talk to her and they kind of fall in love for a few
link |
01:13:14.820
days.
link |
01:13:15.820
Yeah.
link |
01:13:16.820
And then if he lies, eventually realizes that she may not be the perfect person for him.
link |
01:13:21.340
And all the jealousies comes out, it's like, why is this beautiful girl talking to me
link |
01:13:25.820
at all?
link |
01:13:26.820
And then she's probably some kind of, I mean, in that, it's not very politically correct,
link |
01:13:31.660
but he basically thinks that she's a prostitute and he talks to her about like who's your
link |
01:13:37.860
pimp and all that kind of stuff he attacks her in all that kind of way when she's just
link |
01:13:42.820
an innocent, she has, you know, she has a past of that kind, but she's an innocent person
link |
01:13:49.020
and he connected and they fell in love with each other.
link |
01:13:51.500
Her gentleness, his worldliness, all that kind of stuff.
link |
01:13:56.020
But that sometimes it doesn't work out that way.
link |
01:13:58.220
And there's that heartbreak when you see, you realize you're never going to be able to
link |
01:14:03.780
have that.
link |
01:14:04.780
And when you see Springsteen saw that, this is a married woman, I'm never going to be
link |
01:14:08.380
able to have that, but I want that.
link |
01:14:10.740
And that's the heartbreak.
link |
01:14:12.580
I got to say, I just assumed they were fucking like, I didn't.
link |
01:14:16.420
You mean after the song, like, the song doesn't get to...
link |
01:14:19.420
You little girl is your daddy home, did he go away and leave you all alone, boom, boom.
link |
01:14:24.580
You know, he's like, he knows she's at home alone.
link |
01:14:27.900
Yeah, but it never materializes.
link |
01:14:31.660
He's, he's, it's longing.
link |
01:14:34.620
It's a man who's not with the thing he craves for.
link |
01:14:38.420
So he's longing for, he's talking about the longing, not with the having.
link |
01:14:43.100
Hey, if anybody in the CIA is watching this, can you look in a Bruce Springsteen's file
link |
01:14:47.340
and let us know if he actually banged the person you wrote that song about?
link |
01:14:50.740
What happens after the song?
link |
01:14:51.740
Right between the song.
link |
01:14:52.740
We want facts.
link |
01:14:53.740
Look, the longing though, I'll tell you this, here's what's interesting about that thing
link |
01:14:56.300
that you're talking about.
link |
01:14:57.300
If you ever, you've heard of, if you ever heard of something called Bakhti Yoga?
link |
01:15:00.660
I think so, yeah.
link |
01:15:02.340
It's the yoga of love and there's all kinds, there's forms of it.
link |
01:15:06.140
The most, the one people know about the most is the Hare Krishna's, but the Hare Krishna's
link |
01:15:10.860
are like, you know, the way in Christianity, you've got the Episcopalians, the Catholics,
link |
01:15:15.460
the Baptists.
link |
01:15:16.460
In Bakhti Yoga, you have various deities that are the object of love.
link |
01:15:22.980
And so Bakhti Yoga is the, is like, and what's really cool about it is it's a, an analysis
link |
01:15:32.940
of love.
link |
01:15:33.940
And so, and it's the, the supposition being like love is the way to commune with the divine.
link |
01:15:42.580
Now a distinction is drawn between like two big world views that are spiritual.
link |
01:15:49.300
One is the concept of sort of unit of consciousness, which you'll run into in a lot of forms of
link |
01:15:57.540
Buddhism, if not all, a sort of a way of deconstructing the identity or understanding
link |
01:16:04.940
that you might not be anything at all, then in fact, you're part of everything.
link |
01:16:09.420
And in that, there's a potential relief from suffering in that, not just like intellectually
link |
01:16:16.620
knowing it, but becoming it now.
link |
01:16:21.460
Whereas in Bakhti Yoga, there's this idea of like the, the best thing is to be the individual
link |
01:16:30.340
because individuals are required for love, this for love to work embodied love.
link |
01:16:36.860
And so the quality, the thing we call, you know, the experience of love is something
link |
01:16:43.460
that can be cultivated.
link |
01:16:44.940
It doesn't just have to be for another person, it doesn't have to be for the stranger on
link |
01:16:47.980
the bus.
link |
01:16:48.980
It doesn't have to be for sweaty Bruce Springsteen's lover that you could actually try, you can
link |
01:16:55.100
actually shift that love to the divine, to God, because obviously it's the Hare Krishna's,
link |
01:17:00.180
it's a theistic religion.
link |
01:17:01.180
They believe in Krishna, who is the, from the POV of Vaishnava Bakhti Yoga, the Godhead,
link |
01:17:07.020
the source from which everything flows into the, into time and space.
link |
01:17:14.100
There, there are all these like fascinating stories of Krishna.
link |
01:17:20.140
It's not just, most people are familiar with Krishna from the Bhagavad Gita.
link |
01:17:24.180
They're about to be more, what's cool about it is because it's like they're making that
link |
01:17:26.620
Oppenheimer movie and he famously quoted the Bhagavad Gita when they split the atom.
link |
01:17:32.060
But there's all these stories of Krishna that are not just in the Bhagavad Gita.
link |
01:17:40.860
And these stories, they could seem very simple when taken literally, but in Vaishnava Bakhti
link |
01:17:48.220
Yoga it's this very advanced theistic yogic system.
link |
01:17:53.620
So they take these stories and from these stories they extrapolate this incredible analysis
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01:18:00.260
of what love is and how to connect with the universe.
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01:18:02.740
So like Krishna has a lover, Radharani, and so sometimes they're getting along.
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01:18:14.020
Sometimes they're fighting, sometimes they're separated.
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01:18:19.180
And so each of these ways of feeling about Krishna are modes of love.
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01:18:28.740
So longing actually is considered one of the highest forms of love, the idea is the longing
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01:18:36.660
is the grace, the longing is the love.
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01:18:39.780
So when you find yourself in a situation of longing and heartbreak, it is identical to
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01:18:48.740
union.
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01:18:49.740
And perhaps more intense, more intensely representative of the essence of what is love.
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01:18:56.620
Yes, and they call it pining.
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01:18:58.660
So it's pining for Krishna.
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01:19:01.540
And also there's other ways you could be with Krishna is as a friend.
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01:19:05.900
So this is another form of love or as a mother, because Krishna has a mother.
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01:19:13.580
So there's like all these ways of like looking at the various forms of love and it's a really
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01:19:18.340
beautiful form of yoga.
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01:19:21.140
That's emphasizing the individual and the individual is a kind of channel to this universal
link |
01:19:26.900
love.
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01:19:27.900
Yeah, there's a lot of different, like their answer to the question of what shows up in
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01:19:35.260
Buddhism is absolute and relative reality, like that obviously there's relative reality.
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01:19:42.140
We're not right now, you and me are not unit of consciousness.
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01:19:46.300
Like you zoom back far enough and we're going to seem like an atom or whatever the thing
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01:19:52.860
is, the trope is, you zoom back far enough and we're in a whatever, we're in a piece
link |
01:19:57.500
of cheese or something, who knows, but in that way we're like completely unified.
link |
01:20:03.460
But simultaneously we're individuals, like for sure, we're individuals, like you still
link |
01:20:08.260
got to pay your taxes, you got to make sure security number, that's relative reality.
link |
01:20:12.580
So you know, Buddhism is like kind of the balance.
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01:20:15.420
Again, when I say Buddhism is, I'm a comedian, I'm not some Buddhist expert.
link |
01:20:21.140
This is just probably my confused idea of what it is.
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01:20:24.980
But anyway, in bhakti yoga, there's the concept that it's called, I'm going to mispronounce
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01:20:31.020
it, a sinka sinka beta tatva, I'm sorry, I'm mispronouncing it, which means simultaneous
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01:20:39.140
oneness and difference.
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01:20:40.940
So oneness and difference.
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01:20:43.100
Yes, simultaneous oneness.
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01:20:44.780
So that's why the oneness is the part of the same piece of cheese and the difference is
link |
01:20:51.220
we are still each paying taxes.
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01:20:53.580
Yes.
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01:20:54.580
In this case, the cheese is Krishna.
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01:20:56.780
So you know, or other ways it gets described is like, you know, a photon blasting off the
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01:21:02.980
sun has sunlight qualities, but it's not the sun.
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01:21:08.620
Humans, being one of the many things, you know, flowing out of the creative consciousness
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01:21:14.580
of the divine, have qualities that are weirdly like the godlike, you know, like we, in fact,
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01:21:23.940
we want to control primarily.
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01:21:25.700
That's one of the problems like humans want to be in control, wherein from there, the
link |
01:21:31.100
bhakti yoga perspective, Krishna is effortlessly controlling everything.
link |
01:21:38.780
And so within the system, the individual parts of the system have that same quality, but
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01:21:43.740
you can't, you're probably not God.
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01:21:46.020
You might be, I'm not.
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01:21:48.300
What do you think happens after we die?
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01:21:52.660
I haven't come close to that, that, that cliff and almost got pushed over once.
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01:22:00.260
What do you think happens when you do get pushed off the cliff?
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01:22:05.180
Okay.
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01:22:06.180
I feel dumb that I'm even going to like preface this by saying, obviously, I have no fucking
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01:22:11.140
idea.
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01:22:12.140
And I think that's one of the cool things about death.
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01:22:14.260
No idea.
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01:22:15.260
The CIA probably does.
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01:22:16.760
You think the CIA, I love like we've decided your audience is the CIA.
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01:22:21.380
Yeah.
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01:22:22.380
I need to, because there's a lot of suspicion that I might be FSB and Merced, so I'm trying
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01:22:28.620
to rebrand.
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01:22:30.620
I'm trying to steer them into the CIA direction.
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01:22:35.380
As far as what happens when you, when you die, one thing I return to when I'm getting
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01:22:39.300
overly complex is the idea of as above so below.
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01:22:43.860
So that you can, a lot of the big questions can be answered by your own experience now.
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01:22:52.300
So in other words, like in terms of thinking about like death, if you look back to baby
link |
01:23:06.100
Lex versus adult Lex, where's the baby?
link |
01:23:11.700
Like baby's gone.
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01:23:13.180
They, you've regenerated all yourselves many times by then.
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01:23:17.780
So in a way you could say Lex baby died, the death didn't look like a typical, and I'm
link |
01:23:25.020
not trying to dodge it, but I'm just saying it was very natural that the death of that
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01:23:29.380
baby, it just, it just.
link |
01:23:32.500
In many ways that baby died, but I am, at least personally, I'm surprised how much the
link |
01:23:37.500
person is exactly the same.
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01:23:40.340
So there's many ways in which you're very different, but there's a lot of ways in which
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01:23:44.860
you're very much the same.
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01:23:47.020
And I wonder if that, if there's, if life is defined by many deaths that continue, that
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01:23:52.820
continue on, and then there, I wonder if there's something persists.
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01:23:57.020
Sure.
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01:23:58.020
Beyond in this, that, yeah, there is something that still persists.
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01:24:02.380
I wonder.
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01:24:03.380
Okay.
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01:24:04.380
So that, now, you know, obviously there's so many different answers to this question
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01:24:10.500
that are religious and ranging from like the most absurd shit you ever heard in your life,
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01:24:16.500
like the gold, you're going to get a mansion.
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01:24:19.660
There's gold streets.
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01:24:20.980
Like I don't, do you even want like gold streets?
link |
01:24:23.700
Who offers gold streets?
link |
01:24:24.700
I know about the virgins, but there's a bunch of virgins.
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01:24:27.900
The Christians give you the gold streets in the mansion.
link |
01:24:30.740
Like depending on the, whatever the particular sect of Christianity is, you know, you, it's
link |
01:24:37.580
like some kind of city there's, that's like paved with gold.
link |
01:24:41.460
No one's addressing the fact that the moment the streets are made of gold, gold is a valueless
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01:24:45.460
substance.
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01:24:46.460
I mean, it's sort of pretty in a cheesy kind of way, but no one's going to give a shit
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01:24:50.380
of it.
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01:24:51.380
It's like, if there was not a lot of asphalt in the world, then, you know, we'd be in heaven
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01:24:57.580
from that same, that way of thinking.
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01:24:59.780
But the.
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01:25:00.780
We're honestly, when I'm going back, this is starting to get a theme with Gullag Archipelago.
link |
01:25:06.900
I'm sorry.
link |
01:25:07.900
I'm reading it currently.
link |
01:25:08.900
That's a sticky book.
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01:25:09.900
Yeah.
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01:25:10.900
It's very sticky in your mind.
link |
01:25:11.900
Very, very tough.
link |
01:25:12.900
When I'm running through very hot heat, I'm listening to Gullag Archipelago and then,
link |
01:25:17.820
you know, one of the things they said they would feed prisoners salt.
link |
01:25:24.060
And then they would exchange the prisoners will be able to give up anything, everything,
link |
01:25:30.380
their gold, their possessions, everything for just one drink of water.
link |
01:25:33.900
So that little context of dehydrating them and feeding them salt changes your value system
link |
01:25:40.540
completely.
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01:25:41.540
Right.
link |
01:25:42.540
So the gold is supposed to be a metaphor for something that you still value deeply.
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01:25:46.140
Yes.
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01:25:47.140
It's, yeah.
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01:25:48.140
Again, any of these things, when you like take them literally, they seem absurd.
link |
01:25:51.340
But if you look deeper into it, it's like quite beautiful.
link |
01:25:54.580
But the Buddhist version of it is that there's a momentum.
link |
01:25:58.260
The best way to put it is it's the kind of momentum.
link |
01:26:00.660
So the thing you're talking about, which is the personality of the baby that is still
link |
01:26:07.060
in the adult, which is still in the old person, you're looking at a kind of momentum that
link |
01:26:13.060
does not stop upon the extinction of the body.
link |
01:26:18.140
Now the, there's, I think there's a lot of, I don't want to say harm because they didn't
link |
01:26:27.900
mean to hurt, but I think there's some harm that maybe has happened from the way death
link |
01:26:31.980
is represented in movies.
link |
01:26:33.500
Like when people die in movies, it's like, there's this, usually it's pretty fast, even
link |
01:26:38.780
if it is what they're dying from is a long term disease that like wraps up pretty quickly,
link |
01:26:44.500
starts with a cough, the person's in bed, but there's this weird kind of lucidity to
link |
01:26:49.340
the person up until the point of death.
link |
01:26:51.900
And also they generally in movies they have makeup on, which is always funny to me when
link |
01:26:55.180
the person dying looks great.
link |
01:26:56.860
If you've ever been around a dying person, they're dying.
link |
01:27:00.340
They look like shit.
link |
01:27:01.540
You're dying.
link |
01:27:02.540
They look like gray and like confused.
link |
01:27:05.460
They're, you know, when you're around dying people, they will spin through time.
link |
01:27:10.100
Your parents won't recognize you for a second.
link |
01:27:12.020
They'll think you're somebody else.
link |
01:27:13.220
They won't, they're like, everything's, everything's like the process is happening.
link |
01:27:18.580
So it's a, you're very confused when you die.
link |
01:27:22.180
So in general, not all the time, some people die with a, with a clear mind, it just depends
link |
01:27:27.260
on the type of death.
link |
01:27:28.780
But think in terms of getting hit by a car, so you want to cross the street, you get hit
link |
01:27:34.340
by a car.
link |
01:27:35.340
Now, if we're talking about this momentum continuing, the confusion, assuming you didn't
link |
01:27:42.060
hit your head and you're unconscious, like somehow you just got smashed and you're like
link |
01:27:45.900
bleeding out, even then you're going to be confused because you're getting dizzy.
link |
01:27:50.540
Like blood's leaving your body or like things are fading out, your vision's going.
link |
01:27:54.620
So it's a very confusing experience initially when the body dies.
link |
01:27:58.740
If you are a materialist who has been, who has convinced themselves that it's a permanent
link |
01:28:07.380
thing, the next bit of confusion is going to be when you realize something is persisting
link |
01:28:13.540
here.
link |
01:28:14.540
Like I'm still here.
link |
01:28:15.540
And this is where you run into the near death experiences, which are a global phenomena
link |
01:28:18.860
that don't seem to be completely shaped by culture.
link |
01:28:23.540
You know, like regardless of what part of the world people are having these experiences
link |
01:28:26.780
in, their reports tend to be similar.
link |
01:28:30.260
And everyone's heard it, the light, the life review, seeing ancestors and stuff like that.
link |
01:28:38.540
Now I don't know what that is.
link |
01:28:40.620
I don't know.
link |
01:28:43.900
Sometimes I think that's probably just like a built in way, the computer shuts down, you
link |
01:28:48.340
know, just this is something it does.
link |
01:28:50.060
Who knows.
link |
01:28:51.060
And in Buddhism, the concept is this momentum persists into something called the bardo.
link |
01:28:57.380
The bardo means in between.
link |
01:28:59.660
And there's an actual number of days.
link |
01:29:02.380
They say that you get to hang out there.
link |
01:29:04.620
And I can't remember.
link |
01:29:05.620
It's like 37 days or 29 days or something, I'm not sure.
link |
01:29:09.180
But at least from the time space perspective, that's how long they're there.
link |
01:29:15.060
In this place, there are a lot of technological parallels, man.
link |
01:29:21.900
It's like in the way the algorithm is reflective, it assesses your desires or whatever and then
link |
01:29:29.020
produces something that is, has within it a component of attraction to you.
link |
01:29:35.180
Apparently this happens in the bardo.
link |
01:29:36.340
Like, or the way, you know, you wake up in the morning and you're in a shitty mood.
link |
01:29:43.100
And then coincidentally, everyone that day is an asshole.
link |
01:29:46.860
If you don't catch it, you could just be like, wow, I guess it's like an asshole day.
link |
01:29:51.020
You don't realize you're seeing your asshole projection like being reflected off the screen
link |
01:29:57.180
of another person.
link |
01:29:59.020
So in the bardo, apparently, you don't need people for the reflective quality.
link |
01:30:03.660
These projections happen and there they appear as either Nietzsche's demon or Nietzsche's
link |
01:30:09.780
angel.
link |
01:30:10.780
It just depends on where you're at and how you died.
link |
01:30:14.620
And like if you died scared, then at least initially that's going to be some scary shit
link |
01:30:19.660
you see around you.
link |
01:30:21.100
If you died in a peaceful way, well then there's going to be more of a possibility of navigation
link |
01:30:28.740
through this liminal intermediary place.
link |
01:30:34.660
And so thus the emphasis on meditation in Buddhism a way to calm oneself, to not be
link |
01:30:42.180
distracted by thoughts, which are their own like apparitions.
link |
01:30:46.260
And then theoretically, if you wanted to, instead of spinning the wheel again and jumping
link |
01:30:52.540
back into a body, you could choose not to do that and then, you know, transcend the
link |
01:30:58.420
wheel of birth and death.
link |
01:31:00.300
But if you still wanted to go back or return or whatever, however you want to put it, then
link |
01:31:06.780
you could have more control over what your next birth might be versus, in this depiction
link |
01:31:14.580
of things, people running from demons that they don't recognize as their own projection
link |
01:31:20.900
into any fucking body that they can find.
link |
01:31:24.660
Because if you've had a body, you want a body.
link |
01:31:27.020
And so this is how you get incarnate as an animal.
link |
01:31:29.660
This is how you get incarnate in the hell realms.
link |
01:31:32.140
This is how you get incarnate in any variety of things.
link |
01:31:34.460
But the idea is like maybe you could slow down a little bit and like choose a birth that
link |
01:31:40.420
is going to be more conducive to you continuing to like spiritually evolve.
link |
01:31:48.300
I like that idea.
link |
01:31:49.300
Is it true or not?
link |
01:31:50.300
Who the fuck knows?
link |
01:31:51.300
I'll grow themically speaking.
link |
01:31:53.020
It seems like a really fun role playing game where you basically keep improving the different
link |
01:31:58.340
parameters based on your ability and willingness to meditate and let go of the menial concerns
link |
01:32:12.500
of life on earth.
link |
01:32:14.980
Why do you think Buddha see life as suffering?
link |
01:32:19.540
What's suffering?
link |
01:32:20.540
Okay.
link |
01:32:21.540
Well, first of all, that gets mistranslated quite a bit.
link |
01:32:26.420
We're talking about the Four Noble Truths, the first one is often it's translated as
link |
01:32:30.220
life is suffering, which is not it.
link |
01:32:34.540
It's there is suffering.
link |
01:32:36.900
The whole life is suffering thing.
link |
01:32:38.180
It's just like a spiritual version of life's bitch, then you die.
link |
01:32:41.860
And people hear that and they're like, yeah, life is fucking suffering, but it's there
link |
01:32:45.740
is suffering.
link |
01:32:46.740
There is suffering.
link |
01:32:47.740
So it's an affirmation if you're like this thing that a lot of people feel that they
link |
01:32:53.540
associate with lots of, they have a lot of reasons they think they're feeling it is known
link |
01:32:58.620
as fundamental dissatisfaction.
link |
01:33:01.500
So another word for suffering maybe could be fundamental dissatisfaction.
link |
01:33:06.820
Also the term itself, maybe a better translation is wobbly wheel.
link |
01:33:14.480
So like imagine like when your bike doesn't have an or your car doesn't have enough air
link |
01:33:18.180
in the tires, your bike doesn't have air in the tires.
link |
01:33:21.140
It's kind of a shitty bike ride.
link |
01:33:22.660
No matter what, it's kind of like, it's like uncomfortable.
link |
01:33:25.860
It's like irritating.
link |
01:33:27.420
So this is what's being pointed to is that there's this quality within a human life that
link |
01:33:35.100
is unsatisfying, like a wobbly wheel, wobbly wheel.
link |
01:33:42.660
Why do you think, what is at the core of that dissatisfaction?
link |
01:33:48.180
Because it could be, it could be as simple as kind of physical and mental discomforts
link |
01:33:53.220
and sadness and depression and all that kind of stuff.
link |
01:33:57.100
Or it could be more speaking to the sort of existentialist, the philosophical, the absurdity
link |
01:34:02.300
of it all.
link |
01:34:03.800
The fact that stuff happens, good stuff happens for no reason, bad stuff happens for no reason.
link |
01:34:10.340
Yeah, it's no matter how much you try, there's not universal fairness to the whole thing.
link |
01:34:19.340
There's not even a universal meaning to the whole thing.
link |
01:34:22.300
So the existentialist perspective, what flavor of suffering do you prefer if it was an ice
link |
01:34:27.740
cream shop?
link |
01:34:28.740
That's so fine.
link |
01:34:29.740
Well, I'm gonna, I'm definitely picking desire over the, like if in the RGB that we're talking
link |
01:34:35.860
right here is desire, aversion and ignorance.
link |
01:34:41.180
So if you want to find like the three, the three ingredients that are giving everyone
link |
01:34:47.260
their sophisticated bits of suffering, there you go.
link |
01:34:51.460
That's what it is.
link |
01:34:52.460
What's, in which way does desire manifest itself in suffering?
link |
01:34:56.220
It hurts.
link |
01:34:57.220
To lose, to not have.
link |
01:34:59.300
Like yeah, it hurts to not, like to eternally not have, but just like my friend pointed
link |
01:35:04.820
this out.
link |
01:35:05.820
He's like, you know, like you order something from Amazon, like even in the smallest way,
link |
01:35:10.940
you're excited about whatever the thing is.
link |
01:35:12.500
You order this thing from Amazon, it's not coming for four days.
link |
01:35:16.220
So those four days are gonna be somewhat marked by you being what people say, I'm excited
link |
01:35:20.940
about it.
link |
01:35:22.340
But really if you look at that feeling, it's uncomfortable, like the feeling of wanting
link |
01:35:26.980
the thing is uncomfortable.
link |
01:35:28.820
So that is a form of suffering, that's suffering.
link |
01:35:32.260
Interesting.
link |
01:35:33.260
And I wonder, because we naturally reframe that in our mind, wanting, we reframe that
link |
01:35:40.060
as a good thing, as a, and maybe suffering is fundamentally good in the way we think
link |
01:35:50.860
of what life is.
link |
01:35:52.500
Yes.
link |
01:35:53.500
It's life affirming, but it's not usually how the word suffering is used.
link |
01:35:58.380
Well, it's true.
link |
01:36:00.220
It's true.
link |
01:36:01.220
The first noble truth of Buddhism is true.
link |
01:36:03.500
It's called the truth of suffering.
link |
01:36:05.580
There is suffering.
link |
01:36:06.580
I mean, this is like an, I don't know, an element that you can't break it down any further
link |
01:36:11.100
than that.
link |
01:36:12.100
Like there is suffering.
link |
01:36:13.100
This is truth.
link |
01:36:14.100
So if you think, you know, and again, as signing like good or bad to truth, I think maybe there's
link |
01:36:21.300
more of a sort of neutrality there.
link |
01:36:23.340
It's just what it is.
link |
01:36:24.940
It's truth.
link |
01:36:25.940
Is it any, is it basically is suffering any disturbance from stillness is suffering then?
link |
01:36:34.860
Like basically any, anything that happens in life that, that's like, that perturbs the
link |
01:36:43.180
system.
link |
01:36:44.180
Ripples and the.
link |
01:36:45.180
Ripples.
link |
01:36:46.180
Ripples.
link |
01:36:47.180
Ripples.
link |
01:36:48.180
Yeah.
link |
01:36:49.180
So a still lake is, is empty of suffering, but any kind of ripple is, is suffering in
link |
01:36:53.540
that sense.
link |
01:36:54.540
A still lake is empty of suffering.
link |
01:36:57.100
You sound like a Zen master.
link |
01:36:58.660
Seems like something is in master.
link |
01:36:59.660
If I can just grow a beard like yours.
link |
01:37:01.820
Ah, no, the beard doesn't help.
link |
01:37:03.700
If I had your chin, you think I'd have a fucking beard.
link |
01:37:07.020
I look like a stork.
link |
01:37:08.700
You should see me.
link |
01:37:09.700
If I had your chin, there would be no beard here.
link |
01:37:11.260
No.
link |
01:37:12.260
You have a symmetrical, nice chin.
link |
01:37:13.260
This is the closest I can come to plastic surgery, pubic plastic surgery friend.
link |
01:37:19.260
That's how you know you're a professional comedian.
link |
01:37:21.540
Uh.
link |
01:37:22.540
Yeah.
link |
01:37:23.540
That's just suffering.
link |
01:37:24.540
There is suffering and the lake analogy is pretty good because the, um, what's happening
link |
01:37:35.180
here is that, that we have become identified with something that we call a self.
link |
01:37:42.700
So this, the self is just accepted.
link |
01:37:45.180
I have a self.
link |
01:37:46.180
I have an identity.
link |
01:37:47.180
I'm a person.
link |
01:37:48.180
I have a self.
link |
01:37:49.180
But when you start doing scans to try to find yourself, which is the entire thing, I'm going
link |
01:37:57.220
to find myself.
link |
01:37:59.140
You get in a van, go to California, take some acid, fuck a prostitute on the bus or whatever
link |
01:38:03.740
care I did.
link |
01:38:04.740
Too far.
link |
01:38:05.740
I'm going to find myself.
link |
01:38:06.740
Oh, she didn't, she wasn't a prostitute.
link |
01:38:08.300
Just a correct record.
link |
01:38:09.300
Oh, previously prostituted.
link |
01:38:10.460
I guess once a prostitute, I was a prostitute.
link |
01:38:12.220
You know what?
link |
01:38:13.220
She's a former prostitute.
link |
01:38:14.220
I don't think that.
link |
01:38:15.220
No.
link |
01:38:16.220
And look, I'm not as, I have a, I, I, I, but I'm not assigning it.
link |
01:38:18.380
All I'm saying is, uh, I don't care who cares.
link |
01:38:21.860
Who has a bit of prostitute?
link |
01:38:22.860
God, I used to be one of the biggest, the worst.
link |
01:38:24.860
We're all a kind of, a kind of prostitute.
link |
01:38:27.060
Yeah.
link |
01:38:28.060
Yes.
link |
01:38:29.060
Yes.
link |
01:38:30.060
But the make love and we make money.
link |
01:38:33.060
Therefore we're all a kind of prostitute.
link |
01:38:35.540
We make God.
link |
01:38:36.540
How great.
link |
01:38:37.540
I would really love to be able to make money by fucking.
link |
01:38:40.700
I mean, it's maybe not directly, but in some sense.
link |
01:38:44.380
Exactly.
link |
01:38:50.380
Do you accept Venmo?
link |
01:38:52.380
It's never too late to start.
link |
01:38:55.300
That's sort of one of the ways in is this sort of contemplation of the identity because
link |
01:39:01.180
it's like, uh, you know what is, it's not just the desire.
link |
01:39:05.460
It's what is having the desire.
link |
01:39:07.540
Where does the desire live in?
link |
01:39:09.020
Like what doesn't want to be where it's at?
link |
01:39:11.820
What is the thing that is like, uh, desperately wanting to get out of the situation it's in?
link |
01:39:17.900
And then, um, as far as ignorance, uh, it's still something that's theoretically happening
link |
01:39:24.380
to an identity.
link |
01:39:25.780
So, so wrapped up in it is really just this sort of like, and that's where we run into
link |
01:39:31.420
what, uh, into attachment.
link |
01:39:34.580
So if the first noble truth of Buddhism is there is suffering, the second noble truth
link |
01:39:39.820
of Buddhism is, um, the cause of this suffering is attachment.
link |
01:39:47.500
And so people hear that and they take it.
link |
01:39:50.620
That's a, there's a lot of levels to that concept.
link |
01:39:53.660
Definitely the cause of suffering is attachment.
link |
01:39:55.060
I mean, God, I just got addicted to vapes.
link |
01:39:57.820
Is there a more embarrassing addiction than vapes?
link |
01:40:01.380
I'm smoking like a little purple thing.
link |
01:40:03.660
It's tastes like sugar.
link |
01:40:05.380
It's attachment is, there is suffering.
link |
01:40:07.860
I want it.
link |
01:40:08.860
I have to charge it now.
link |
01:40:10.340
I'm embarrassed by it.
link |
01:40:11.740
It makes me feel out of control.
link |
01:40:13.620
There's a lot of suffering, but also there's deeper levels of attachment that go all the
link |
01:40:19.260
way to this attachment to the sense of one's self and the, I think the existentialists
link |
01:40:26.900
do get into this idea in a different way, which is like, because I think I'm a me.
link |
01:40:32.580
Now I have to push what that thing is out into the world through my actions.
link |
01:40:38.660
And that's a kind of attachment too.
link |
01:40:40.700
Exactly.
link |
01:40:41.700
There you go.
link |
01:40:42.700
Right.
link |
01:40:43.700
And that leads to the third noble truth, which is get rid of attachment and you won't suffer
link |
01:40:50.140
anymore.
link |
01:40:51.140
That's, it seems logical, but you know, it is a very math, it is a mathematical analysis
link |
01:40:57.180
of this particular problem of suffering it's addressing.
link |
01:41:01.620
And then the fourth noble truth is the eight full path of Buddhism, which is like a process
link |
01:41:07.380
by which one could unencumber oneself from this identification with something that isn't
link |
01:41:14.420
real.
link |
01:41:15.420
Do you need a bathroom break?
link |
01:41:17.380
Yeah.
link |
01:41:18.380
Thank you.
link |
01:41:19.380
I do.
link |
01:41:20.380
I appreciate that.
link |
01:41:22.020
There's a funny moment.
link |
01:41:23.020
I was running in the heat yesterday listening to Gulag Archipelago and there's a, which
link |
01:41:29.060
was a very welcome break because I'm looking for any excuse to stop whatsoever.
link |
01:41:33.340
A gentleman, very nice gentleman stopped me saying recognize me and just said a bunch
link |
01:41:38.500
of friendly things.
link |
01:41:40.380
And then he mentioned as, as one of the people who really inspires him is Duncan Trussell.
link |
01:41:46.660
And I was, I mean, I'm the same way and I told him, you know, tomorrow, it felt like
link |
01:41:54.900
a name drop.
link |
01:41:55.900
I name drop you this morning.
link |
01:41:58.220
I was like, tomorrow I'm going to get to meet him.
link |
01:42:00.340
And he says, he says, hi, and there's, oh, and he said that he watched Midnight Gospel
link |
01:42:06.700
on, on mushrooms and it was like the greatest mushroom experience of his life.
link |
01:42:11.700
I don't know.
link |
01:42:12.700
Yeah, man.
link |
01:42:13.700
I, yeah, I was nervous about meeting you, man.
link |
01:42:15.980
Like, I have so much respect for you and like, yeah, I name dropped.
link |
01:42:18.780
I was saying, I'm going on Lex's podcast today.
link |
01:42:21.900
It's, you look, we're so lucky we all live here.
link |
01:42:24.420
What the fuck?
link |
01:42:25.420
We're all living in Austin together.
link |
01:42:26.500
Like I, I thought I somehow like missed that, but that's, we all got to hang out.
link |
01:42:32.620
We all have to like start doing stuff.
link |
01:42:34.860
Well, you have to really also, you have to appreciate this moment.
link |
01:42:37.220
I, I remember, I know some people are less sentimental than others, but I remember sitting
link |
01:42:45.340
with Joe Rogan and with Eric Weisstein, I believe was, yeah, and at the back of the
link |
01:42:54.340
comedy store shortly before COVID, I think.
link |
01:42:59.860
And just thinking like, there's no way these things will last.
link |
01:43:04.620
And these things, meaning the comedy store, Joe Rogan, Joe Rogan D, Joe Rogan, like a
link |
01:43:11.300
pot, like a pocket influential podcasting person.
link |
01:43:15.260
Also, a person like in this room in this space, the ability to just talk for hours and lose
link |
01:43:24.700
ourselves in this moment.
link |
01:43:26.460
It just felt ephemeral somehow, temporary.
link |
01:43:30.020
And I just wanted to capture that moment somehow, like, I don't know.
link |
01:43:34.500
Sometimes that's where the temptation to take a picture on you, that kind of stuff or record
link |
01:43:38.180
a podcast comes from, but just felt like it would be, it'd be gone forever.
link |
01:43:43.340
Of course, Joe doesn't seem to have that kind of sentimental notion of just wherever you
link |
01:43:49.060
end up, you just enjoy the shit out of it.
link |
01:43:51.500
Right.
link |
01:43:52.500
That's it.
link |
01:43:53.500
Well, and that's something you have to cultivate.
link |
01:43:54.500
You don't, that's not an easy, but the thing you're talking about, you know, God, if you
link |
01:43:58.980
see these, I think the best analogy for what you're talking about, there's these videos
link |
01:44:03.720
where people give like a sugar cube to a raccoon, but the raccoons, they wash their
link |
01:44:08.300
food.
link |
01:44:09.300
So raccoon, or I think it's cotton candy, they give the raccoon cotton candy, immediately
link |
01:44:13.060
it washes the cotton candy, and of course the cotton candy dissolves in the water, and
link |
01:44:17.500
the raccoon is like, what the fuck, like, you know, and the thing, that grasping you're
link |
01:44:23.660
talking about, it's like the raccoon washing the cotton candy.
link |
01:44:26.740
Like the moment you get into the grasping part, you paradoxically have pulled yourself
link |
01:44:33.860
out of the moment that inspired the grasping part.
link |
01:44:38.100
And that's, you know, that's some people, that's the entirety of their lives.
link |
01:44:42.620
Trying to record, I mean, Jesus man, you ever see people film fireworks on the 4th of July
link |
01:44:47.100
with their phone?
link |
01:44:48.100
It's one of the most remarkable aspects of human behavior, which is like, you know they're
link |
01:44:54.340
not going to watch the fireworks on their phone.
link |
01:44:59.220
Only a lunatic would do that.
link |
01:45:00.620
Like who's going to go back and look at fireworks, but.
link |
01:45:03.620
So we're also in this position where, because of podcasting, there is some aspect where
link |
01:45:08.980
you can record a magical moment in time, together between two people, or even just with a camera.
link |
01:45:16.100
So to get back to the lake that you were talking about, this is emptiness.
link |
01:45:20.380
So that's emptiness.
link |
01:45:21.380
That's what's known as emptiness.
link |
01:45:22.380
The lake is emptiness, and that's what we are, emptiness, emptiness.
link |
01:45:27.060
And that's another thing that gets very confused in Buddhism is that emptiness, and that emptiness
link |
01:45:34.020
is, that's to me, like when I'm going to do a podcast, that's where I try to go.
link |
01:45:40.900
I try to go just in the moment.
link |
01:45:43.060
No agenda, you know, if I am nervous or whatever.
link |
01:45:46.220
Okay, I'll feel the nervousness, but just in the, just drop into the moment.
link |
01:45:50.300
That's when time changes, and then you look up, hours have passed, it feels like a second.
link |
01:45:55.820
And the reason it feels like that is because if you successfully dropped into the moment,
link |
01:46:02.860
it's the lake now.
link |
01:46:04.380
It's emptiness.
link |
01:46:05.380
It's forever, for a second, you're like dipping into eternity.
link |
01:46:10.580
And yeah, it's a very strange thing to, as part of that, record it, you know, as part
link |
01:46:17.300
of that, try to like grab it and put it out there, but it works.
link |
01:46:21.780
Can you speak to that, to the Duncan Trussell family hour?
link |
01:46:26.380
Can you speak about that purple lavender world you go to, when it's most intense and successful
link |
01:46:32.140
for you, when you feel a sense of lightness and happiness, when it works?
link |
01:46:37.460
Yeah.
link |
01:46:38.460
Whether it's your own or a conversation with Joe in general, or it's, well, yours is very
link |
01:46:44.220
specific because it's audio only, maybe you can also speak to that, because you might
link |
01:46:48.620
as well be naked or you don't have to, you're free of the conventions of the real world.
link |
01:46:56.900
I will never stop thinking it's remarkable.
link |
01:47:01.220
Like the fact that I'm talking to you, to me, seems remarkable.
link |
01:47:05.620
Not just technologically, but I'm talking to someone, I'm assuming I'm allowed to say
link |
01:47:11.060
this, who has robot dogs that I've been watching for years evolve on YouTube, arms reach away
link |
01:47:21.100
from one of these things, you know, and I'm with somebody who is like an acclaimed genius.
link |
01:47:27.820
So for me, it's like, oh my God, how's, what, why do I get to have this conversation?
link |
01:47:33.660
Why do I get to be here?
link |
01:47:34.980
When there would be like a line, there'd be a line that would just wrapped and wrapped
link |
01:47:39.260
and wrapped around this building of people who'd love a chance to just chat with you.
link |
01:47:43.420
And so when I, with my podcast, that's how I feel, like when I'm talking to these guests,
link |
01:47:49.420
you know, who have spent, you know, some of them have like spent their entire lifetime meditating,
link |
01:47:58.580
you know, studying specific aspects of Buddhism or even when I'm with, you know, when I'm
link |
01:48:04.380
with comedians who I like consider to be brilliantly funny.
link |
01:48:08.940
So for me, it's just like, God, I almost feel like I've just created some sophisticated
link |
01:48:15.500
trap for cool people where like I get to like hang out with them.
link |
01:48:19.220
So you're like sitting in the gratitude of it, just, just feeling lucky.
link |
01:48:23.180
Yeah.
link |
01:48:24.180
Yeah.
link |
01:48:25.180
Feeling lucky and wrestling with imposter syndrome, you know, trying to like get that
link |
01:48:28.140
part of myself to shut up long enough so I could be in that moment that we're talking
link |
01:48:32.020
about, you know.
link |
01:48:33.580
And then, and then I carry that with me.
link |
01:48:36.140
It's not just like you stop the podcast, it's like some of the things these people tell
link |
01:48:40.460
me or some of the ways they are, like it becomes part of me.
link |
01:48:45.220
And then I get to have a life where this thing that they gave me is in, in me forever.
link |
01:48:52.180
And so yeah, it's, it's, there's,
link |
01:48:54.180
Yeah.
link |
01:48:55.180
It's cool how conversation can just a few sentences can change the direction of your
link |
01:49:00.620
life.
link |
01:49:01.620
If you're listening, if you're there to be transformed by the words, they will do the
link |
01:49:05.900
work.
link |
01:49:06.900
Yeah.
link |
01:49:07.900
And it's the full mix of it.
link |
01:49:09.900
It's usually when, if you look up to somebody, and it's true for me at least, I think it
link |
01:49:17.420
is for you that you start to look up to basically everybody you talk to.
link |
01:49:21.140
Yes.
link |
01:49:22.140
Yes.
link |
01:49:23.140
Good sign.
link |
01:49:24.140
Yeah.
link |
01:49:25.140
That's a good sign.
link |
01:49:26.140
God forbid it goes the other way.
link |
01:49:27.140
Yeah.
link |
01:49:28.140
You're in trouble.
link |
01:49:29.140
Yeah.
link |
01:49:30.140
If all of a sudden you start looking down on people, because whatever crazy metric you're
link |
01:49:33.180
using, ooh, that would freak me out.
link |
01:49:35.900
I do feel like that's a quality of getting older.
link |
01:49:38.260
When I was younger, I really, like, I thought I was so smart.
link |
01:49:42.020
Like I thought I all figured out.
link |
01:49:43.380
Oh really?
link |
01:49:44.380
So you're going, your ego is just going, taking a nosedive.
link |
01:49:47.740
I would like to say it's my ego taking a nosedive.
link |
01:49:50.260
I've, me and my friend talk about it a bunch.
link |
01:49:52.460
We've just always associated it with like doing acid for two decades straight.
link |
01:49:57.660
Like I'm just assume I'm just like slowly like spiraling into senility, you know?
link |
01:50:02.940
Like I'm just like, I, I, I, all the confidence, all the like, oh, the certainty.
link |
01:50:08.220
When you're having like in college, you're having the great, like, like, you know, you've,
link |
01:50:13.420
I remember you're, you feel like you're a representative of Camus or some shit.
link |
01:50:18.700
You know what I mean?
link |
01:50:19.700
You read the myth of Sisyphus and now you like it, know all existentialism and your certainty
link |
01:50:24.740
in regards to it is embarrassing, but you don't see it in that way.
link |
01:50:29.740
You just feel certain and then that certainty, it just starts like, it starts crumbling a
link |
01:50:35.140
little bit.
link |
01:50:36.140
And yeah, you know, I get to actually intensely experience that certainty in many communities,
link |
01:50:43.980
but one in cryptocurrency, young folks with the certainty that this technology would transform
link |
01:50:50.580
the world.
link |
01:50:52.080
And I mean, this is almost one of the big communities of the modern era where they believe that
link |
01:50:57.900
this will really solve so many of the problems of the world and they believe in it very intensely.
link |
01:51:03.700
And aside from the technology and the details of the thing, all I see is the certainty and
link |
01:51:08.780
the passion in their eyes, they'll stop me, let me, let me explain you, let me, let me
link |
01:51:14.340
just give me a chance to tell you why this thing is extremely powerful.
link |
01:51:19.180
And I just get to enjoy the glow of that because it's like, wow, this, I, I missed having
link |
01:51:24.900
that certainty about anything.
link |
01:51:27.620
It's probably come over for me to, but when I was younger, it's like, only I, you know,
link |
01:51:33.620
I deeply understand the, the relationship of man to his mortality.
link |
01:51:40.460
And I understood that most deeply, I think when I was like 16 or 17.
link |
01:51:44.580
And I have, I am the representative of the human condition and all these adults with
link |
01:51:50.140
their busyness of day to day life and their concerns, they don't deeply understand what
link |
01:51:55.740
I understand, which is the only thing that matters is the absurdity of the human condition.
link |
01:52:03.980
Yeah.
link |
01:52:04.980
Yeah.
link |
01:52:05.980
And let me quote you some Dostoevsky.
link |
01:52:06.980
Oh boy.
link |
01:52:07.980
And you speak Russian.
link |
01:52:08.980
Yeah.
link |
01:52:09.980
Speak Russian.
link |
01:52:10.980
So you've read the Brothers Karamazov in Russian.
link |
01:52:13.660
Unfortunately, I have to admit that I read all of Dostoevsky in English of, I came to
link |
01:52:23.700
this country when I was 13, and at least don't remember.
link |
01:52:26.580
We read a lot, but we read Tolstoy, Pushkin, a lot of the Russian literature, but it was
link |
01:52:33.220
in Russian, but I don't remember reading Dostoevsky.
link |
01:52:35.620
I wonder at which point does the Russian education system give you Dostoevsky?
link |
01:52:40.900
Cause it's pretty heavy stuff.
link |
01:52:43.060
Second grade.
link |
01:52:44.060
Probably the second grade.
link |
01:52:46.100
Russians are intense.
link |
01:52:47.100
I don't remember.
link |
01:52:48.100
Yeah.
link |
01:52:49.100
They are.
link |
01:52:50.100
They very, they very much are.
link |
01:52:51.100
Dostoevsky, but I did a tangent upon a tangent upon a tangent.
link |
01:52:56.060
I traveled to Paris recently on the way to Ukraine and was scheduled to talk to Richard
link |
01:53:04.260
Pivir and this pair that translate Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, just this famous pair that translate
link |
01:53:12.980
most of Russian literature to English.
link |
01:53:15.220
And I was planning to have a sequence of five, 10, 15 hour conversation with them about the
link |
01:53:22.180
different details of all the translations and so on.
link |
01:53:25.460
I just found myself in a very dark place mentally where I couldn't think about podcasts or anything
link |
01:53:30.660
like that.
link |
01:53:31.660
It caught me off guard.
link |
01:53:32.900
So I went to Paris and just laid there for a day, not just being stressed about Ukraine
link |
01:53:39.540
and all those kinds of things.
link |
01:53:40.980
But I'm still, the act of translation is such a fascinating way to approach some of the deepest
link |
01:53:49.380
questions that this literature raises, which is like, how do I capture the essence of a
link |
01:53:55.700
sentence that has so much power and translate it into another language?
link |
01:53:59.980
That act is actually really, really interesting.
link |
01:54:01.980
And I found with my conversations with them, they've really thought through this stuff.
link |
01:54:09.380
It's not just about language, it's about the ideas in those books.
link |
01:54:14.740
That also really makes me sad because I wonder how much is lost in translation.
link |
01:54:20.940
So when I was in Ukraine, I talked to a lot of like half the conversations I had on the
link |
01:54:26.820
record were in Russian and basically 100% off the record were in Russian versus in English.
link |
01:54:37.700
And just so much is lost in those languages.
link |
01:54:40.940
And I'm now struggling because I'm launching a Russian channel where there'll be a Russian
link |
01:54:47.900
overdub of Duncan.
link |
01:54:50.980
Your wow will now be translated into Russian.
link |
01:54:53.540
What's Russian wow?
link |
01:54:56.060
It'll just be wow probably.
link |
01:54:57.500
I'm so sorry for the difficulties of having to translate wow.
link |
01:55:01.460
Usually probably with wow, they'll leave it unoverdubbed because people will understand
link |
01:55:05.420
exactly what you mean.
link |
01:55:06.460
But that's an art form and it's a weird art form.
link |
01:55:09.180
It's like how do you capture the chemistry, the excitement, the humor, the implied kind
link |
01:55:24.860
of wit.
link |
01:55:25.860
I don't know, there's just layers of complexity in language that it's very difficult to capture.
link |
01:55:31.220
I wonder how it is sad for me because I know Russian and how much is lost in translation
link |
01:55:36.060
and the same, there's a brewing conflict and tension with China now and so much is lost
link |
01:55:42.580
in the translation between those languages and cultures.
link |
01:55:49.700
The music of the people is completely lost because we don't know the language or most
link |
01:55:53.580
of us don't know the language.
link |
01:55:54.580
Yeah, how much of the conflict is just problems in translation?
link |
01:55:58.100
How much of all these problems that we're having are just the alien sense of this or
link |
01:56:02.500
that?
link |
01:56:03.500
It's just as simple as that.
link |
01:56:04.740
Words are getting just a tiny warp away from the intent of if when we both speak the same
link |
01:56:15.660
language, we can still say something that offends someone when you never intended that
link |
01:56:21.980
at all.
link |
01:56:23.100
How much more so when it's not only is it a completely different sound, but the script
link |
01:56:30.220
itself is different, like the Russian writing is it called Cyrillic or what's the name?
link |
01:56:37.580
Yeah, Cyrillic.
link |
01:56:38.580
Cyrillic.
link |
01:56:39.580
And I don't know the name for Chinese writing, but it's a continuum that gets weirder and
link |
01:56:45.620
weirder looking, you know?
link |
01:56:48.580
So yeah.
link |
01:56:49.580
Or less weird, depending on your perspective.
link |
01:56:51.620
Yeah, I'm sure depending on where you're at.
link |
01:56:54.620
I'm definitely, I'm about the farthest thing from a polyglot as there could be, man.
link |
01:56:59.060
I'll tell you, at one point when I was getting fascinated by Dostoevsky, I did have this very
link |
01:57:06.020
transient fantasy about learning Russian so that I could like understand the difference
link |
01:57:11.460
in it.
link |
01:57:12.460
You were 17, 18 at the time.
link |
01:57:14.980
College.
link |
01:57:15.980
Yeah.
link |
01:57:16.980
Brothers Care of Mazov lost in that book.
link |
01:57:19.100
Just like, oh God.
link |
01:57:20.980
So in love with it.
link |
01:57:24.780
So there's definitely like, you know, Ukraine, and this is what there's a lot of the wars
link |
01:57:31.220
about saying, you know, Ukraine and Russia are not the same people.
link |
01:57:35.660
There's a strong culture in Ukraine.
link |
01:57:37.100
There's a strong culture in Russia.
link |
01:57:38.980
But you know, I know because that's where my family's from.
link |
01:57:41.900
There's a fascinating strong culture, but there's such strong cultures everywhere else
link |
01:57:49.180
too.
link |
01:57:50.180
Ireland has a culture, Scotland has a culture.
link |
01:57:53.020
Like on a tiny island, you just have these like subcultures that are more powerful than
link |
01:57:59.380
anything exists in human history, like the Bronx, I don't know, like Brooklyn, like different
link |
01:58:05.860
parts of New York have a certain culture.
link |
01:58:07.660
And then New York versus LA versus, well, and then certain places are looking for their
link |
01:58:11.980
culture.
link |
01:58:12.980
Like, I don't, I think Austin, I don't know what Austin is, and I don't think anyone knows.
link |
01:58:18.740
There's a, there's a traditional Austin, and then it's evolving constantly.
link |
01:58:23.740
Same with Boston, a place I spent a lot of time.
link |
01:58:26.540
There's a traditional Boston and now it's evolving with the different younger people
link |
01:58:31.420
coming from the university and staying and all of that is evolving.
link |
01:58:35.180
But underneath it, there's a core, like the American ideal of the value of the individual,
link |
01:58:40.180
the value of freedom, freedom of speech, all those kinds of things that permeates all of
link |
01:58:45.420
that.
link |
01:58:46.420
And the history of World War II permeates Ukraine and Russia, a lot of parts of Europe,
link |
01:58:54.620
the memories of all that suffering, destruction, the broken promises of governments and the
link |
01:59:01.540
occupier versus the liberator, all that kind of stuff, all that permeates the culture.
link |
01:59:08.500
That affects how cynical or optimistic you are or how much you appreciate material possessions
link |
01:59:16.100
versus human connection, all that kind of stuff.
link |
01:59:19.540
Yeah, it's, I mean, this is like, talk about absurdity.
link |
01:59:23.740
I mean, this is war is like, it's the, what absurdity looks like, it's, it's some kind
link |
01:59:31.060
of organized madness.
link |
01:59:32.620
None of it makes sense.
link |
01:59:33.620
Like, all of it, like it's just, none of it makes sense, like, but it does.
link |
01:59:38.100
But it doesn't.
link |
01:59:39.100
I mean, obviously you're defending yourself or you're taking orders that if you don't
link |
01:59:43.380
take, you're, you're going to jail and so, or some, somewhere in between, you know, the
link |
01:59:48.380
classic story about this, maybe it's a bullshit myth about World War II, you've, I'm sure
link |
01:59:53.820
everyone's heard it because it comes up, you know, it's Christmas Eve and they have a ceasefire.
link |
02:00:01.380
And then I think they played soccer, they sing Christmas songs, and then they had to
link |
02:00:06.180
force them into fighting again.
link |
02:00:09.140
And so when those moments happen, the, are you familiar with Hakeem Bay?
link |
02:00:15.460
He's a controversial figure, sadly, like he, like, I think he was like, I'm not going to
link |
02:00:21.100
defame him because I haven't like researched it correctly, but some people have said shit.
link |
02:00:25.060
But since I don't know the reference, I'm not going to, but regardless, I mean, you
link |
02:00:30.260
know, look, I'm sorry, but Bill Cosby was funny, you know, like, that's a, that's a
link |
02:00:35.580
funny comedian, but you know, the other stuff, Michael Jackson, he could fucking dance and
link |
02:00:43.700
sing and sing, but there's some other stuff.
link |
02:00:46.380
But regardless, Hakeem Bay came up with the idea of something called a temporary autonomous
link |
02:00:52.420
zone, which is that within a structure, a cultural structure, a temporary bubble of
link |
02:01:01.940
freedom will appear that by its nature gets sort of popped by the bigger bubble or it
link |
02:01:11.660
runs out of resources generally is what happens.
link |
02:01:13.860
So these things will appear just out of the blue that it's almost like I imagine if like
link |
02:01:21.420
on earth in some tiny little bit of earth, the gravitational field was reduced by some
link |
02:01:28.420
percentage.
link |
02:01:29.420
And you could jump really high or whatever, but it wouldn't last.
link |
02:01:32.260
It's like that culturally, all the restrictions and the darkness and the heaviness and all
link |
02:01:36.660
of it for a second.
link |
02:01:38.820
Somehow this bubble appears where humans come together as the hippie ideal, brothers, sisters,
link |
02:01:47.980
just humans, earthlings instead of American, Chinese, Russian, Ukrainian, temporary autonomous
link |
02:01:56.500
zone, it gets crushed by the default reality that it was appearing in.
link |
02:02:01.420
But somehow within that space, you witness the possibility, the possibility, the frustrating
link |
02:02:09.220
possibility that anyone who's thought about humanity knows this possibility, which is
link |
02:02:16.260
like, it seems like we can just get along.
link |
02:02:18.780
Like it does seem like we're pretty much the same thing and then we can just get along.
link |
02:02:23.820
Those moments are really rare.
link |
02:02:26.780
It's sad.
link |
02:02:27.780
I talked to a lot of soldiers, a lot of people that were suffered through the different aspects
link |
02:02:34.100
of that war.
link |
02:02:37.500
And there's an information war that convinces each side that the other is not just the enemy,
link |
02:02:45.460
but less than human.
link |
02:02:48.260
So there's a real hatred towards the other side.
link |
02:02:53.500
And those kind of little moments where you realize, oh, they're human like me and not
link |
02:03:00.940
just like human like me, but they have the same values as me.
link |
02:03:09.340
This woman who is a really respected soldier, she specializes in anti tank missiles.
link |
02:03:18.860
And she, she's very kind of very pragmatic, very, the enemy is the enemy who have to destroy
link |
02:03:25.660
the enemy and saying like, there's no compassion towards the enemy.
link |
02:03:29.820
They're not, they're not human.
link |
02:03:31.620
They're less than human.
link |
02:03:34.100
But she said there was, there was a moment when she remembers an enemy soldier in a tank
link |
02:03:42.700
took a risk to save a fellow soldier and that risk was really stupid because he was facing
link |
02:03:48.060
he was going to get destroyed.
link |
02:03:50.340
And then she said that she tried to shoot a rocket at that tank and she missed.
link |
02:04:00.060
And then she later went home and she couldn't sleep that she missed, how could she screw
link |
02:04:03.940
that up?
link |
02:04:04.940
But then she realized that actually she missed, maybe she missed on purpose because she realized
link |
02:04:13.420
that that man, just like she is, was a hero, just like she strives to be.
link |
02:04:21.340
They were both heroes defending their own.
link |
02:04:25.260
And in that way, he was just like her.
link |
02:04:27.500
She was like, that's the only time I remember doing this war ever feeling like this is another
link |
02:04:32.940
human being.
link |
02:04:33.940
But that was a very brief moment, her and I just hear that over and over and over again.
link |
02:04:39.540
These romantic notions we have of where one, that we're all just human, unfortunately during
link |
02:04:47.420
war, those notions are rare and it's quite sad and war in a certain way really destroys
link |
02:04:54.020
those notions.
link |
02:04:55.300
And one of the saddest things is it destroys it, at least from what I see, potentially
link |
02:05:04.100
for generations, not just for those people for the rest of their life, but for their
link |
02:05:09.340
children, their children's children.
link |
02:05:12.180
The hatred.
link |
02:05:13.180
I mean, I ask that question of basically everyone, which is, will you ever forgive for asking
link |
02:05:19.940
of Ukrainians, will you ever forgive the Russians?
link |
02:05:23.100
Will you have hate in your heart towards the Russians?
link |
02:05:27.140
Or do you have love for a fellow human being?
link |
02:05:32.460
And there's different ways that people struggle with that, different people.
link |
02:05:37.660
They saw the love, they saw the hate with their known heart and they struggle with the
link |
02:05:44.460
hate they have and they know they can overcome it in a period of weeks and months after the
link |
02:05:49.660
war is over.
link |
02:05:50.660
But some people said, no, this hate that showed up in February when the war started will be
link |
02:05:56.820
with me forever.
link |
02:05:57.820
Well, yeah.
link |
02:05:58.820
Their kids got killed.
link |
02:05:59.820
What the fuck are you going to do about that?
link |
02:06:02.300
Like I don't care.
link |
02:06:03.300
I've got, you know, I've got aphorisms and cute little stories about, you know, you're still
link |
02:06:07.220
in prison if you hate your former captors.
link |
02:06:10.340
But man, I gotta tell you, if somebody hurt my kids, I'm not coming back.
link |
02:06:15.300
I mean, there's no amount, at least right now in my approximation of spiritual literature,
link |
02:06:23.860
meditation or anything that I can really think of that is going to give me that kind of space.
link |
02:06:31.340
Like I think I imagine in the same way like, I imagine I could probably run a marathon
link |
02:06:38.460
eventually, but do I think I'm ever going to do that?
link |
02:06:42.980
That times a million.
link |
02:06:44.300
So man, you know, all we can do is have compassion for their hate because it's like, what are
link |
02:06:50.260
you going to tell, what are you going to say?
link |
02:06:52.180
What are you going to say to someone like that, oh, oh, you know, for the sake of humanity,
link |
02:06:58.060
let it go.
link |
02:06:59.060
It was just your kids.
link |
02:07:00.540
It was just something you loved more than anything in the world.
link |
02:07:05.460
You'll never be okay again.
link |
02:07:06.460
You don't have nightmares for the rest of your life, but you should forgive.
link |
02:07:10.620
No.
link |
02:07:11.620
Well, there is truth in the fact that forgiveness is the way to let go, right?
link |
02:07:16.020
But that truth is not, fuck you, right?
link |
02:07:22.180
Which is why it's not your job to say that, you know, it's not that you're doing that.
link |
02:07:27.500
I know you're not.
link |
02:07:28.500
But, you know, the problem with people like me, early phase, you could get this stupid
link |
02:07:33.860
missionary thing going where you like, start trying to like, I don't know, like proselytize
link |
02:07:40.140
ideals that you might be incapable of, you know, and I just hearing it, you know, that's
link |
02:07:45.740
the, man, I saw this, the thing that like, I mean, I've seen a lot, all of us have by
link |
02:07:50.940
now probably is online, I've seen, and you just saw it in person, like we've seen things
link |
02:07:55.660
that are just horrific.
link |
02:07:58.860
But as a dad, man, I just saw this clip of this kid around the age of my kid walking
link |
02:08:06.980
by himself, these refugees just walking by himself, the look on his face, I can't explain
link |
02:08:13.980
the look on his face.
link |
02:08:15.740
I don't know what happened to his parents.
link |
02:08:17.020
I don't know what happened.
link |
02:08:18.460
Like I, it was so upsetting, I like even thinking about it now, it's just like, fuck, that could
link |
02:08:23.820
have been my kid.
link |
02:08:24.820
You know, so knowing that kind, that, that kid's got to grow up now, like, and I don't
link |
02:08:33.700
know, is the kid's parents still there?
link |
02:08:36.380
And that's just one of countless orphans out there now.
link |
02:08:42.980
So you have this hate, and the question is how to direct it?
link |
02:08:48.300
Because the choice is you can direct it towards the politicians that started the war.
link |
02:08:53.420
You can direct it towards the soldiers that are doing the killing, or you can direct it
link |
02:08:57.540
towards an entire group of people.
link |
02:09:00.620
And that's the struggle because hate slowly grows to where you don't just hate the soldiers,
link |
02:09:08.540
you don't just hate the leaders, you hate all Russians because they're all equally evil
link |
02:09:17.300
because the ones that aren't doing the fighting are staying quiet.
link |
02:09:21.860
And I'm sure the same kind of stories are happening on the other side.
link |
02:09:25.580
And so there is that hate is one that is deeply human, but you wonder for your own future,
link |
02:09:42.580
for your own home, for building your own community, for building your own country, how does that
link |
02:09:48.220
hate morph over the weeks and months and years?
link |
02:09:53.300
Not into forgiveness, but into something that's productive that doesn't destroy you, because
link |
02:09:57.940
hate does destroy.
link |
02:09:59.740
That's the dark aspect of a rocket that hits a building and kills hundreds of people.
link |
02:10:11.020
The worst effect of that rocket is the hate in the hearts of the loved ones to the people
link |
02:10:22.220
that were in that building.
link |
02:10:24.100
That hate is a torture over a period of years after.
link |
02:10:30.260
And that it doesn't just torture by having that psychological burden and trauma, it also
link |
02:10:36.780
tortures because it destroys your life.
link |
02:10:39.860
It prevents you from being able to enjoy your life to the fullest.
link |
02:10:43.980
It prevents you from being able to flourish as a human being, as a professional, in all
link |
02:10:52.860
those kinds of ways that humans can flourish.
link |
02:10:56.060
I don't know.
link |
02:10:59.060
There is an aspect where this naive notion is really powerful that love and forgiveness
link |
02:11:08.980
is the thing that's needed in this time.
link |
02:11:14.340
When I talk to soldiers, I remember bringing up to Jaco, is there a sense where the people
link |
02:11:23.260
you're fighting are just brothers in arms, bringing up the Dire Straits song, Brothers
link |
02:11:26.980
in Arms?
link |
02:11:29.140
And he was basically without swearing, saying, fuck that, that they're the enemy.
link |
02:11:33.260
Yeah.
link |
02:11:34.260
I mean, he's literally in survival mode.
link |
02:11:36.420
He can't think like that.
link |
02:11:37.540
It's going to create latency in the system, and that's going to lower survivability.
link |
02:11:40.900
You can't think that.
link |
02:11:41.900
I mean, we're talking about, like, cognitively, you can't have latency.
link |
02:11:45.780
Like, if you're that one moment of hesitation, like, you see it sometimes, like in these
link |
02:11:50.300
YouTube videos of, like, somebody, a new cop has been unfortunate enough to run into something
link |
02:11:59.980
that is a phenomenon, suicide by cop.
link |
02:12:03.620
Somebody has a knife, and that person is running towards them with a knife, and they're begging
link |
02:12:09.580
the person to stop, that you can hear it in their voice.
link |
02:12:12.620
They're begging, stop, stop, stop, stop, and the person is not going to stop.
link |
02:12:19.420
So the critique of that is that that latency could potentially not just lead to the cop
link |
02:12:29.500
getting killed, but to that person with a knife killing other people.
link |
02:12:34.540
And so, you know, I get, if I were out there, I think that, like, you won't, you probably
link |
02:12:43.340
just as a matter of, like, not getting shot and being fully in the moment, you have to
link |
02:12:48.180
be like that.
link |
02:12:49.180
I would guess.
link |
02:12:50.180
I don't know.
link |
02:12:51.180
I don't know.
link |
02:12:52.180
I'm the furthest thing from a soldier there could be.
link |
02:12:53.180
There's a something Jack Cornfield, this great Buddhist teacher says, which is, tend to the
link |
02:13:00.540
part of the garden you can touch, meaning this is where we're at right now.
link |
02:13:06.140
Thank God you and I, though we are experiencing some, like, ripples from what's going on over
link |
02:13:11.780
there, everyone is, we're not there.
link |
02:13:14.380
And thank God, we don't have to come up with the psychological program for people going
link |
02:13:23.380
through that to no longer be encumbered by that hate.
link |
02:13:27.740
Thank God.
link |
02:13:28.740
And I don't know if that's just lazy or whatever, but it's like, you know, for me, I just have
link |
02:13:32.460
to bring it back to, all right, well, here's where I'm at now.
link |
02:13:36.020
And I don't, like, I don't want there to be war.
link |
02:13:41.100
I don't want to hurt people, but yeah, I love what you said.
link |
02:13:44.620
I think what you said is the, if anything is the most intelligent way of looking at
link |
02:13:52.260
it, it's like, don't pretend that you're not going to feel that hate.
link |
02:13:56.820
Like you, you're going to feel it.
link |
02:13:58.420
There's no way around it.
link |
02:13:59.420
Or like, because that's even worse, because then you're almost saying like, something's
link |
02:14:01.740
wrong with them for feeling the hate or, you know, whatever.
link |
02:14:05.380
But more along the lines, if you can avoid applying that hate to an entire country of
link |
02:14:14.940
people, then do that.
link |
02:14:18.140
Like just understand we're talking about like, not everybody.
link |
02:14:25.100
I know it's not everybody.
link |
02:14:26.460
I know it's not everybody.
link |
02:14:27.460
It's just easier, isn't it?
link |
02:14:28.980
Cognitively.
link |
02:14:29.980
So easier to think all Russians, monsters, you know, all Russians, all whatever the particular
link |
02:14:39.100
like thing is that you're supposed to not like.
link |
02:14:42.100
It's easier somehow, weirdly.
link |
02:14:43.940
You'd think that'd be more difficult.
link |
02:14:45.460
Yeah.
link |
02:14:46.460
But I guess the lesson is, if you give in to the easy solution, that's going to lead
link |
02:14:55.540
to detrimental long term effects.
link |
02:14:58.380
So.
link |
02:14:59.380
So hate should be, it's such a powerful tool that you should try to control it for your
link |
02:15:08.060
own sake, not because you owe anything to anybody, but for your own psychological development
link |
02:15:13.780
over time.
link |
02:15:14.780
Right.
link |
02:15:15.780
Right.
link |
02:15:16.780
That's it.
link |
02:15:17.780
That's it.
link |
02:15:18.780
Fuck.
link |
02:15:19.780
Yeah.
link |
02:15:20.780
Yeah.
link |
02:15:21.780
In terms of dark places, you suffered from depression or has been some of the darker
link |
02:15:27.860
places you've gone in your mind.
link |
02:15:31.580
You know, I needed therapy, man.
link |
02:15:32.700
I needed therapy for the longest time.
link |
02:15:34.180
I just didn't get it.
link |
02:15:36.820
So because of that, I would go through like bouts of like paralytic depression, like suicidal
link |
02:15:48.820
depression, suicidal ideations that were more than just ideations.
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02:15:51.780
I mean, I think like people get afraid when the thought of suicide appears in their consciousness.
link |
02:15:59.580
They get really scared of themselves or they think there's something like, fuck, what's
link |
02:16:03.540
going on with me?
link |
02:16:04.540
Why would I think that?
link |
02:16:05.540
But I think if we are suffering and, you know, as a natural part of wanting to reduce
link |
02:16:10.780
suffering or not feel bad anymore, I mean, suicide is going to be a not like if we're
link |
02:16:16.300
just, you know, you're just looking, what are all the options?
link |
02:16:18.420
Let's brainstorm here.
link |
02:16:20.020
You know what I mean?
link |
02:16:21.020
Maybe more water.
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02:16:22.020
You can start jogging, get some therapy, call my friends, all the stuff we all hear.
link |
02:16:27.980
Or I could just, I think the height of my apartment building is probably the definitely
link |
02:16:32.300
the right height to kill myself.
link |
02:16:34.820
And then, so for me, like the few times where the ideation has gone towards like, when would
link |
02:16:44.020
I do that?
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02:16:45.620
How do I, what, you know, what do I need to like accomplish that?
link |
02:16:50.500
And then like, that's where it gets really fucking scary.
link |
02:16:53.180
That's where it's like terrifying.
link |
02:16:54.180
So you start the actual details of the planning of how to commit suicide?
link |
02:17:00.140
Yeah.
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02:17:01.140
What's going to be the least painful way to do it?
link |
02:17:02.820
What's going to be the most instantaneous way to do it?
link |
02:17:04.740
What's the, you know, and with, you know, with depression, because it can be progressive,
link |
02:17:11.100
you know, this is why you have to really just stay on top of it.
link |
02:17:14.300
Anyone who's gone through depression knows what I'm talking about.
link |
02:17:16.260
You got to stay on top of it.
link |
02:17:17.260
Like you might need medication.
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02:17:18.260
You know, I know this is controversial now, but it's still better than dying.
link |
02:17:22.100
If you ask me, but at some point with depression, it like becomes paralyzing so you don't want
link |
02:17:27.060
to get out of bed anymore and you're not taking showers anymore and you don't want to talk
link |
02:17:30.700
to anybody anymore and you're not answering your phone anymore and, you know.
link |
02:17:35.300
So like in a dark place that you might be in, it still might get worse.
link |
02:17:39.940
So you should really do everything you can to get out of control.
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02:17:45.580
And that's the, that's specific psychological disorder.
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02:17:49.620
That's the problem because it, the things, it's like, if you start listening to what
link |
02:17:54.180
you wanted, you think it's you, it's the depression, you start listening to it.
link |
02:17:58.380
It wants you to stay in bed.
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02:18:00.940
And then you're getting those fucking depression sleeps, you know, or you wake up and you're
link |
02:18:05.340
more tired, like it's not working.
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02:18:07.820
You're trying to escape reality by sleeping.
link |
02:18:12.300
And so yeah, like you have to like, you're, it's, you're fighting for your, you're literally
link |
02:18:18.900
fighting for your life.
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02:18:19.900
It might not seem like that cause you can't, if you could see depression, if you could
link |
02:18:23.740
see it, if you knew you had some inky, vaporous, octopus thing that was just wrapping around
link |
02:18:31.020
you more and more and more and more, you would probably do everything you could to rip that
link |
02:18:35.060
fucking thing off your body.
link |
02:18:36.060
And if you couldn't get it off your body, you would be calling people to get help.
link |
02:18:41.220
So it doesn't feel like a fight because you're exhausted.
link |
02:18:43.620
There's no reason to move.
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02:18:45.420
There's no, you don't see the meaning for any of it.
link |
02:18:48.060
So it doesn't feel like a battle, but it is a battle.
link |
02:18:50.260
You're not feeling.
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02:18:51.260
I mean, that's the other thing.
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02:18:52.260
You're just, you're basically not feeling.
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02:18:53.660
You're like, you start going numb, at least that was my experience with it, numb and tired.
link |
02:18:58.940
And then increasingly numb and tired and then increasingly sort of disconnecting from reality.
link |
02:19:05.380
And then somewhere in there, that's when you start playing around with the idea of like,
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02:19:09.380
oh, I don't know if it's worth it.
link |
02:19:11.420
Now, you know, I think compared to some of my friends who haven't survived, obviously
link |
02:19:16.620
who haven't survived depression, like mine was definitely not whatever theirs was like.
link |
02:19:21.780
I've heard, I mean, to understand it for folks out there, maybe you haven't gone through it.
link |
02:19:27.340
Just imagine if like, how bad you have to feel if death is the salute, like, like violence
link |
02:19:34.300
against yourself so that you die is the solution.
link |
02:19:37.260
Like just, it flies in the face of everything.
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02:19:43.180
So I would, yeah, that was definitely the darkest place that I've ever been.
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02:19:49.180
Just that death doesn't seem like, because you don't care about anything anymore, that
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02:19:54.220
death just doesn't seem like that bad.
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02:19:56.540
Yeah.
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02:19:57.540
Like you're not able to appropriately assign the negative costs to this, this solution.
link |
02:20:05.420
Right.
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02:20:06.420
Like a reasonable solution.
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02:20:07.980
Yeah.
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02:20:09.980
But I think also what's going along with it is like, it's not like your brain isn't working.
link |
02:20:15.420
Like you're not thinking, obviously you're not thinking clearly.
link |
02:20:19.420
Like at least, again, this was my experience of it.
link |
02:20:23.060
It's a fog.
link |
02:20:24.060
You're in some kind of, like, you're confused, there's confusion, there's shame.
link |
02:20:31.380
You feel embarrassed.
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02:20:32.380
You feel embarrassed.
link |
02:20:33.380
You want to get out of bed, you want to do stuff.
link |
02:20:34.980
You want to be compelled to be social and do all the stuff, but you're not.
link |
02:20:39.300
You're not.
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02:20:40.300
And like you seem, if people don't know what's going on and you're not telling them because
link |
02:20:43.740
you're embarrassed, because you want to have some like, you know, uncorrupted, unwarped
link |
02:20:52.860
psyche, you know, you're like, it invites you to be secret about it.
link |
02:20:58.060
That's one of its first tricks is it tells you not to tell anybody.
link |
02:21:02.260
And that's deadly in that case, it's deadly.
link |
02:21:06.420
What was the source of light?
link |
02:21:08.020
What was the, what were for you and in general, the ways out?
link |
02:21:14.260
Yeah.
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02:21:15.260
So for me, the solutions, and again, man, for my depressed friends out there, please don't
link |
02:21:22.540
get mad at me.
link |
02:21:23.540
I'm not doing the thing of like, just put on a smile or any of that bullshit because
link |
02:21:26.900
it doesn't feel like that when you're like, and when you're fighting it.
link |
02:21:32.100
It's, it's like you are, you're in a, I don't know why I'm keep, I keep using these stupid
link |
02:21:38.460
gravity analogies, but it's like the gravity has been turned up on your planet in every
link |
02:21:42.700
single way by, so getting out of bed, you know, like.
link |
02:21:47.980
By the way, gravity and quantum mechanics, one of the most beautiful things about our
link |
02:21:53.180
reality, what the hell is each of those things?
link |
02:21:56.860
So this isn't, you're not just talking about the hippie language.
link |
02:22:01.700
It's still physicists pretending to understand something.
link |
02:22:06.260
We're still at the very beginning of understanding this mysterious world of ours that seems to
link |
02:22:10.140
be functioning according to these weirdly simple and yet universally powerful laws, which
link |
02:22:18.260
we don't fully yet understand.
link |
02:22:20.820
So please, the metaphor and the analogy of gravity, fully, fully applicable.
link |
02:22:25.340
I don't know any other way to put it, and it's like somebody turned the gravitational
link |
02:22:28.140
field of your mattress up by.
link |
02:22:29.980
Everything is heavy.
link |
02:22:30.980
Your body's heavy.
link |
02:22:31.980
You don't want to get out of bed.
link |
02:22:34.100
You will consider shitting or pissing the bed, because you're just like, who gives a
link |
02:22:37.820
fuck?
link |
02:22:38.820
I'll just lay in my shit and piss.
link |
02:22:40.380
You're dying.
link |
02:22:41.380
You're like, you're, you're, you're, it's, none of it makes sense.
link |
02:22:44.900
So, and I feel like in retrospect, I'm making what I, what I've done a little, like I had
link |
02:22:56.220
more lucidity, it was more of like a, when you're, you know, you're wrestling with someone
link |
02:23:02.820
and you're just like, well, you do, it's different for you.
link |
02:23:06.980
But for me, if I'm wrestling, I'm not thinking about jiu jitsu moves, I'm like, survival.
link |
02:23:12.100
So it's like that.
link |
02:23:13.380
It is a struggle.
link |
02:23:15.020
Like it's like, you really have to deliberately fight everything.
link |
02:23:21.340
So you start, so you can almost have a conversation with the depression.
link |
02:23:27.700
And then what you do is you start doing the opposite of everything it's telling you to
link |
02:23:32.620
do.
link |
02:23:33.620
So it's telling you lay in bed.
link |
02:23:36.700
So you get out of bed.
link |
02:23:38.500
It's definitely telling you, don't fucking exercise.
link |
02:23:41.060
You're going to go fucking exercise.
link |
02:23:43.180
That's not going to do anything.
link |
02:23:44.180
You can't probably have a heart attack.
link |
02:23:46.460
You really want to go outside.
link |
02:23:48.260
Don't go fucking exercise.
link |
02:23:50.700
And they'll feel crazy and you won't want to do it.
link |
02:23:54.940
If you wanted to do it, you wouldn't be depressed.
link |
02:23:57.460
Like how often do you hear like one of the symptoms of depression?
link |
02:24:00.460
You want to jog?
link |
02:24:01.620
You want to get on a bike?
link |
02:24:03.060
You know, you don't hear that.
link |
02:24:04.060
That's not a symptom.
link |
02:24:05.060
So you start, at least one solution, I just started doing the opposite of whatever the
link |
02:24:12.260
voice is telling you to do the opposite that, and then suddenly that those, the gravitational
link |
02:24:19.980
field diminishes a little bit.
link |
02:24:22.340
It doesn't go all the way away.
link |
02:24:23.660
And that's where you can fall right back into it because you just feel even slightly better.
link |
02:24:27.580
You're like, oh, okay, I fixed it.
link |
02:24:29.740
You know, really, I think if you, like in having been through therapy, the best solution
link |
02:24:37.020
would be go to a fucking therapist as quickly as you can.
link |
02:24:42.980
Just sit down with him and tell him what's going on.
link |
02:24:46.860
I know what you're thinking.
link |
02:24:47.860
How am I going to find a therapist?
link |
02:24:49.900
Just do it.
link |
02:24:51.620
Google it.
link |
02:24:52.620
Go on Yelp.
link |
02:24:53.620
All of this shit feels impossible.
link |
02:24:56.260
You're like, I don't want to turn on the computer.
link |
02:24:57.460
I don't want to do any of this.
link |
02:24:58.460
You just have to.
link |
02:24:59.460
I mean, you have to.
link |
02:25:00.460
You do it if you're on fire.
link |
02:25:01.740
You do it if you're on fire and someone's like, you know, here's a way to not be on fire.
link |
02:25:05.500
Just this particular fire is, it doesn't make you want to run around screaming.
link |
02:25:09.860
It just makes you want to fall asleep forever and that, but those little steps, I got lucky
link |
02:25:15.940
because it worked.
link |
02:25:16.940
It worked.
link |
02:25:17.940
I started exercising.
link |
02:25:18.940
I've been on antidepressants before when I was originally diagnosed with it.
link |
02:25:24.660
Did those help?
link |
02:25:26.020
You know, even with all the current research coming out about that maybe we were all wrong
link |
02:25:31.500
about our understanding of depression, I do feel like it helped in a certain way.
link |
02:25:38.660
It definitely made me stop thinking about, it stopped the intrusive thoughts, but I don't
link |
02:25:46.580
know how much of that was placebo or how much of that, I don't know, but then also like
link |
02:25:50.100
I couldn't come anymore.
link |
02:25:51.820
That was the other fucked up thing like you're, you can't have orgasms and which might not
link |
02:25:57.300
sound like a big deal, but you know, when I told my therapist that they actually took
link |
02:26:03.060
me off them because I think she was realizing that it started diminishing a little bit.
link |
02:26:08.100
But the one I'm talking about now that whatever episode or whatever you want to call it, I
link |
02:26:14.540
just got lucky because it worked.
link |
02:26:16.460
It worked and I started feeling better.
link |
02:26:18.420
Thank God.
link |
02:26:19.420
Now, if you suffer from depression out there and you've had a remission of the depression,
link |
02:26:24.420
you know, it's really like it's scary to have mental illness because everyone gets
link |
02:26:32.020
bummed out.
link |
02:26:33.020
I mean, that's just normal.
link |
02:26:34.020
Like you're going to get bummed out.
link |
02:26:35.020
No, I want to do anything sometimes.
link |
02:26:36.620
It doesn't mean you have a clinical depression.
link |
02:26:38.180
You might just be bummed out or grieving.
link |
02:26:40.300
There might be any number of things, but when I get really nervous, if some of those symptoms
link |
02:26:48.220
start showing up and at one point I felt like that was happening again and I did intramuscular
link |
02:26:57.420
ketamine therapy, which now that was the damnedest thing I've ever experienced aside
link |
02:27:04.340
from the fact that ketamine is immensely psychedelic, I just remember going back to the hotel after
link |
02:27:14.260
the experience with the clinician and with depression, it's like a headache that starts
link |
02:27:24.060
coming on, but you're like, this headache might last for years.
link |
02:27:27.180
It might last for six months.
link |
02:27:28.660
It might get worse and worse and worse.
link |
02:27:30.940
And so I went back to the hotel room and it was just gone.
link |
02:27:37.380
Like I just felt normal.
link |
02:27:38.380
I felt great.
link |
02:27:39.380
It was like the most remarkable thing ever.
link |
02:27:42.620
So look at the research on ketamine right now.
link |
02:27:46.100
It's not like bullshit.
link |
02:27:49.140
It's not like woo woo science.
link |
02:27:50.580
There's really, really good data out there showing that something like, I think it's
link |
02:27:54.180
60%, I don't know what the percentage is, but 60% of people with an endogenous depression
link |
02:28:02.100
when they get ketamine therapy will experience remission regardless of whether you trip out
link |
02:28:07.860
or not.
link |
02:28:08.860
It just does something that I don't know if they know what it is yet.
link |
02:28:11.900
I don't care if they do.
link |
02:28:12.900
But that one thing worked and basically you keep fighting until something works.
link |
02:28:17.540
Exactly.
link |
02:28:18.540
It's a survival issue.
link |
02:28:19.540
I think because it's kind of so slow moving, you might even forget it's progressive.
link |
02:28:27.220
You could easily just think that you're just a kind of bummed out person or you start thinking
link |
02:28:31.980
that these aspects of your psychology are permanent when they don't have to be.
link |
02:28:37.460
What about other people in your life?
link |
02:28:40.260
What advice would you give to people that have loved ones who suffer from depression?
link |
02:28:44.940
What are they to do?
link |
02:28:46.500
Okay.
link |
02:28:47.500
It's really like, man, it's really dark.
link |
02:28:55.300
Here's number one.
link |
02:28:57.620
This is what somebody told me when I lost a friend to suicide, because when you lose
link |
02:29:01.420
a friend to suicide, when you lose a loved one to suicide, you're going to blame yourself.
link |
02:29:05.900
It's like in the periphery of suicide, there is a circumference of guilty people who all
link |
02:29:14.940
feel like, oh, if only I'd said this at the right time, if only I'd listened more, if
link |
02:29:19.700
only I'd seen that warning signer, if only this or that, it's interesting in that with
link |
02:29:27.540
other forms of disease, if your loved one dies from cancer, say, more than likely, you're
link |
02:29:38.420
not going to be thinking like, oh, I should have cured their cancer.
link |
02:29:42.660
It's a tragedy, but at least you're not like, if only I had.
link |
02:29:46.180
You still might think that's part of grief, but...
link |
02:29:49.660
It's not as sticky in many of the other situations.
link |
02:29:52.300
Here, the guilt couldn't really stay for a long time.
link |
02:29:56.380
So number one, we're talking about a progressive disease that can lead to death, and if somebody
link |
02:30:06.300
commits suicide, they wanted to commit suicide, and at least what I've been told is you can't
link |
02:30:12.260
stop it.
link |
02:30:13.260
It's going to happen.
link |
02:30:14.260
It's going to happen.
link |
02:30:15.860
There are no magic words.
link |
02:30:16.860
There's nothing you could do.
link |
02:30:18.380
So people who've lost people to suicide, you know what I'm talking about.
link |
02:30:24.460
You can watch it happen in real time, and there's nothing you could do.
link |
02:30:29.900
That being said, being responsive to when it seems like someone's really reaching out
link |
02:30:36.020
for help and knowing that maybe, especially if it's someone who doesn't talk like this
link |
02:30:43.500
a lot of the time, and sentences start coming out of their mouth, that if you weren't really
link |
02:30:48.060
paying attention, might not seem like a big deal, but for this person, it's kind of anomalous
link |
02:30:52.780
that all of a sudden that's happening.
link |
02:30:56.580
Now there, that's when you can be a good listener and open up to them and hear what they're
link |
02:31:01.540
saying and see, like, oh, shit, are they asking me for it?
link |
02:31:04.180
Is this them asking for help?
link |
02:31:05.900
And even if you're like, I don't know what to do, at least you can start checking in
link |
02:31:12.740
on them, help them understand that you're there for them, and then hopefully get them
link |
02:31:18.900
into therapy, get them to a doctor, get them to a professional who can see what's going
link |
02:31:24.220
on there.
link |
02:31:26.020
And then there's hope.
link |
02:31:27.020
And even then, there might not be hope, actually.
link |
02:31:29.420
Doctors can't stop it.
link |
02:31:30.420
You know, sometimes it just, that's the way it goes, but I know that being sensitive,
link |
02:31:39.180
if somebody's all of a sudden hitting you up or reaching out to you that normally isn't
link |
02:31:43.140
like that, and just, what's going on?
link |
02:31:46.140
How are you?
link |
02:31:47.140
And just listen.
link |
02:31:48.140
Which in general, depression or not is probably a good thing to do, to truly listen.
link |
02:31:55.540
It's like, are you okay?
link |
02:31:57.940
Yeah.
link |
02:31:58.940
Yeah.
link |
02:31:59.940
Yeah.
link |
02:32:00.940
You know, I don't, this whole thing of like cries for help, man, they don't, sometimes
link |
02:32:04.100
they just look like a weird text, you know, and you don't realize for the person to send
link |
02:32:09.140
that fucking text, they've been thinking about it all morning.
link |
02:32:12.220
They've been just trying to get their phone up from the floor.
link |
02:32:16.580
So you know, I think that, that's it.
link |
02:32:20.060
I mean, I don't know.
link |
02:32:21.820
I don't know.
link |
02:32:22.820
I've had friends like kill themselves, so, and many of them it wasn't like, sadly it
link |
02:32:29.740
was like, I don't know.
link |
02:32:31.300
I don't know what could have been done, but.
link |
02:32:34.100
But there's still, still a guilt in the back of your head.
link |
02:32:37.820
For the rest of my life, for sure, always will be.
link |
02:32:41.020
Yeah.
link |
02:32:42.020
I mean, yeah, but again, what are you going to do?
link |
02:32:44.700
But even that, it's a part of love.
link |
02:32:48.980
That's right.
link |
02:32:49.980
That's right.
link |
02:32:50.980
Yeah.
link |
02:32:51.980
That's right.
link |
02:32:52.980
You could, yeah.
link |
02:32:53.980
And we, you know, we feel guilt.
link |
02:32:54.980
Part of grief is guilt, you know?
link |
02:32:55.980
Like you, we always could have been better people.
link |
02:32:58.580
We always could have been better people.
link |
02:33:00.460
You get into Victor for Uncle Much.
link |
02:33:02.020
Yeah, of course.
link |
02:33:03.460
Man search for meaning.
link |
02:33:05.940
The invitation to live your life as though you'd been on your death bed and it'd been
link |
02:33:13.860
given the chance to go back and not make the same mistakes.
link |
02:33:18.620
I returned to that idea all the time, meaning it's like, okay, whatever you did before this
link |
02:33:25.140
moment.
link |
02:33:26.140
It was too late.
link |
02:33:28.260
But now, you know, this is where you can start.
link |
02:33:31.220
This is where you can start.
link |
02:33:32.660
And yeah, so I think that for a neurotic like me, that's super important because otherwise
link |
02:33:39.620
I'll just get like too lost in the weeds of shitty things I did in the past.
link |
02:33:44.660
So speaking of Victor Franco, you and Hitler have the same birthday.
link |
02:33:47.980
Oh my God.
link |
02:33:48.980
You've really done your research.
link |
02:33:50.980
Well, I often Google famous people that have a birthday, same as Hitler.
link |
02:33:59.020
And the person that shows up, you know, is your face just really big.
link |
02:34:04.780
You and Hitler together, just the pals next to each other.
link |
02:34:08.020
No, it does not.
link |
02:34:09.500
No, but April 20th is an embarrassing birthday for all my 420 friends out there.
link |
02:34:14.700
It's embarrassing.
link |
02:34:15.700
You share a birthday with Hitler.
link |
02:34:17.060
Well, it's 420s also has a humor and a lightness to it, right?
link |
02:34:23.220
It's embarrassing.
link |
02:34:24.220
Especially if life is embarrassing.
link |
02:34:27.340
But if you like weed and you're born on stoner day and you believe in reincarnation, do you
link |
02:34:34.260
realize like when you start connecting the dots there, if there is like a bardo where
link |
02:34:38.420
you get to choose your next life?
link |
02:34:41.140
So you're like a shitty generic NPC.
link |
02:34:45.140
You're like, of course, of course you would be born on 420.
link |
02:34:49.020
Dude, let me be born on 420, man, yeah.
link |
02:34:54.060
But isn't it interesting that on that same day, Hitler is also born?
link |
02:35:00.140
There's a tension to that and that Hitler's an artist.
link |
02:35:06.860
So it's like that hippie mindset could go anywhere.
link |
02:35:11.980
Oh, yeah, right.
link |
02:35:12.980
And I was just having this conversation with a friend of mine who's a wonderful skeptic
link |
02:35:18.740
and we were talking about this, which is the thing where you started attributing to the
link |
02:35:28.060
day you were born, these kind of significance and based on maybe people who were born on
link |
02:35:32.780
that day, maybe some other things.
link |
02:35:35.060
And it's like think of how many people by now in the course of human history have been
link |
02:35:39.580
born on April 20th.
link |
02:35:42.300
I mean, how many?
link |
02:35:44.380
Someone could probably do the math and come up with some number close to it.
link |
02:35:47.940
Now, this is how you know how rotten Hitler is.
link |
02:35:52.220
He's the one that like fucks up the birthday for everybody else.
link |
02:35:57.060
But I think where I heard that you're 420 is Wim Hof episode because he's also 420.
link |
02:36:04.580
He's a 420.
link |
02:36:05.580
Yeah.
link |
02:36:06.580
So Hitler beats even Wim Hof in terms of owning the date.
link |
02:36:11.860
I think if anybody is like, well, obviously there's nothing you could do to like fix it.
link |
02:36:18.980
Hitler fucked up a lot of things.
link |
02:36:20.380
He fucked up that mustache.
link |
02:36:22.140
He fucked up the name Hitler.
link |
02:36:23.740
He fucked up 420.
link |
02:36:25.260
And obviously he caused a horrific Holocaust that, by the way, talk about these reverberations
link |
02:36:30.940
through time that we're still experiencing.
link |
02:36:33.060
There's still people walked around with fucking tattoos from that motherfucker.
link |
02:36:37.940
But Wim Hof, people like Wim Hof, they're like whatever the opposite of Hitler is.
link |
02:36:45.940
He too is creating ripples in the lake that hopefully respond to that of Hitler.
link |
02:36:51.380
Yeah.
link |
02:36:52.380
Very cold fucking lake.
link |
02:36:53.380
And he's in, yeah, so very, very cold lake that he's happily swimming around in.
link |
02:37:00.060
But yeah, I try not to think about the Hitler thing on my birthday that my dad would just
link |
02:37:09.340
every birthday he would remind me that Hitler was born.
link |
02:37:12.180
Do you think all of us are capable of evil?
link |
02:37:14.900
Do you think you're one of the sweetest people I know, just as a fan?
link |
02:37:19.420
Do you think you're capable of evil?
link |
02:37:21.540
Sure.
link |
02:37:22.540
Yeah.
link |
02:37:23.540
I mean, sure.
link |
02:37:24.540
Definitely.
link |
02:37:25.540
I think if you don't think that, you better watch out because come on.
link |
02:37:29.940
How do you think you're not capable of evil?
link |
02:37:31.660
And PS, if you're connected to the supply chain, friend, you're doing evil.
link |
02:37:38.580
You're paying taxes.
link |
02:37:40.820
You're supporting the worst things in the world.
link |
02:37:44.300
You know, like diffusion of responsibility, it's really curious or the circumference of
link |
02:37:50.460
responsibility where it's like bombs are going off somewhere that were paid for in
link |
02:37:56.500
some small part by you, by you, some fractional, if you, if an American, if a drone is flying
link |
02:38:05.700
over a village in Afghanistan and drops a bomb and you pay taxes, then you could say
link |
02:38:13.220
you have fractional ownership over that drone.
link |
02:38:18.940
You're a cog in the machine of evil in some sense.
link |
02:38:22.660
And I know what you're going to say, well, yeah, but I have to fucking pay taxes.
link |
02:38:26.500
Like I have no choice.
link |
02:38:27.500
There's sales tax, there's this or that.
link |
02:38:29.980
Take that attitude, it's the same thing that people on the battlefield, when they're sending
link |
02:38:35.940
missiles into other tanks, they're thinking the same thing.
link |
02:38:39.100
It's just they're more directly responsible for what's going on.
link |
02:38:43.380
But in Buddhism, this idea of dependent coerising, or yeah, dependent coerising, we're all connected.
link |
02:38:51.460
We're all part of this matrix, we're all connected, meaning we all share responsibility for the
link |
02:38:57.780
evil in the world.
link |
02:38:58.780
So even if you aren't directly committing evil acts, if you're seeing something in the
link |
02:39:04.820
world and you're thinking that's evil, you're probably not quite as separated from that
link |
02:39:10.580
as you'd like to believe in some tiny, infinitesimally quantum way.
link |
02:39:18.220
You're connected.
link |
02:39:19.220
And there is the sense, I've gotten to experience this over and over that one individual can
link |
02:39:25.300
actually make a gigantic difference in, and so not only is there a diffusion of responsibility,
link |
02:39:33.500
there's a kind of a paralysis about, well, what can I do?
link |
02:39:37.460
Yeah.
link |
02:39:38.460
Sure, I understand, but what can I do?
link |
02:39:41.060
And I think just looking at history and also hanging out and becoming friends, but also
link |
02:39:50.340
interviewing people that've had a tremendous impact, you realize, you're just one dude.
link |
02:39:56.180
You're like a normal person, you're not that smart even.
link |
02:40:00.500
A lot of people aren't in some kind of magical way where you have a big head that's figuring
link |
02:40:06.380
out everything.
link |
02:40:07.380
No, you just saw problems in the world and you're like, hey, I think I'm going to try
link |
02:40:13.820
to do something about this.
link |
02:40:15.140
Yeah.
link |
02:40:16.140
And you stay focused and dedicated to it for a long period of time and refuse to quit,
link |
02:40:21.300
refuse to listen to people that tell you that this isn't like impossible, here's how
link |
02:40:25.100
others have failed.
link |
02:40:26.260
Yeah.
link |
02:40:27.260
No, I'm going to do it.
link |
02:40:29.260
That's it.
link |
02:40:30.260
That's it.
link |
02:40:31.260
One person, and then you kind of, the thing is when there's one person that keeps pushing
link |
02:40:35.460
forward that way, humans are sticky, other people follow them around.
link |
02:40:40.420
And they're like, I'll help, I'll help, and then the other people help, and then the
link |
02:40:45.740
cool people all gather together because they kind of get excited about this way.
link |
02:40:49.820
Holy shit, we can actually make a difference and they form groups and then all of a sudden
link |
02:40:54.620
there's companies and nations that actually make a gigantic difference.
link |
02:40:58.300
It's interesting.
link |
02:40:59.300
And it all starts with one person often.
link |
02:41:01.940
You know what?
link |
02:41:02.940
If you push back slightly against that, it's never just one person.
link |
02:41:06.220
It's like, nobody ever talks about, at least as far as I'm aware, you never hear about
link |
02:41:11.940
like Buddha's great grandmother.
link |
02:41:14.700
You never hear about that.
link |
02:41:15.900
You never hear about that.
link |
02:41:16.900
But if not for that person, no Buddhism.
link |
02:41:21.900
The people you're talking about, they're the tip of the iceberg that pops up out of the
link |
02:41:28.580
ocean of history and you never see all the little things that helped that happen.
link |
02:41:37.420
And so to me, this is where the real like, how do you help?
link |
02:41:41.460
What's something you can do?
link |
02:41:43.100
Well, you know, recognize that first, that you might not even be aware of how much you're
link |
02:41:49.100
impacting people around you.
link |
02:41:51.100
You might think that you're not, or you might think surely not in a way that makes a big
link |
02:41:56.140
difference, but you have no idea these tipping points and that can lead to the emergence
link |
02:42:03.940
of an Einstein, a Gandhi, a Martin Luther King.
link |
02:42:08.860
We can go on and on, a Dostoevsky or whoever.
link |
02:42:11.900
And so I think that's where, for me, it goes back to tend to the part of the garden you
link |
02:42:16.820
can touch and then, or even deeper than that, intention, just like an, and I'm an idiot.
link |
02:42:24.740
So I need an idiot's intention, which is don't, if you, I heard the Dalai Lama say it.
link |
02:42:33.220
If you can help, help.
link |
02:42:36.100
If you can't help, don't hurt.
link |
02:42:39.020
Simple, basic dummy rules so that you can, if possible, refrain from hurting, which might
link |
02:42:47.780
as well be a form of helping.
link |
02:42:51.060
And the help doesn't have to be this dramatic thing, these little acts of kindness.
link |
02:42:56.020
I don't know, they seem to have, maybe I believe in kind of karma, but they seem to have this,
link |
02:43:03.060
they can have this gigantic ripple effect.
link |
02:43:05.700
I don't know, I don't know why that is.
link |
02:43:07.940
I just, I remember a lot of little acts of kindness that people have done to me.
link |
02:43:13.420
And they, they, what do they do?
link |
02:43:17.100
When they fill me with joy and hope for the future, they give me faith in humanity, that
link |
02:43:23.900
somehow there's a partially dormant desire in our sort of collective intelligence to
link |
02:43:31.820
do good in the world, that most of us want to be good, that want to do good onto the
link |
02:43:38.020
world.
link |
02:43:39.020
They want, there's a kindness that's kind of like begging to get out, you know, and those
link |
02:43:43.980
little acts of kindness do just that, and actually one of the reasons that I love Austin
link |
02:43:48.500
and moved here is realizing, just noticing those little acts of kindness all around me,
link |
02:43:55.540
just for stupid reasons, just people being really nice.
link |
02:43:59.340
It's weird in that, that, that kindness combined with an optimism for the future, it's just
link |
02:44:05.820
it, it's amazing what that can build.
link |
02:44:09.780
Yes.
link |
02:44:10.780
Yes.
link |
02:44:11.780
It's incredible.
link |
02:44:12.780
That's what you're saying, it's like, you know, we, we moved to this great neighborhood
link |
02:44:17.100
and at this point, I think three, maybe four of our neighbors have like made food for us
link |
02:44:25.380
that just shows up with like handwritten lists of like things they like to do in the area
link |
02:44:31.620
and their phone number, if we need help.
link |
02:44:34.180
And it's like, holy shit, that's like that, it might seem like a little act, but it feels
link |
02:44:40.860
like some kind of atomic love bomb just went off on your porch when you're looking at that
link |
02:44:45.940
and like, what the fuck?
link |
02:44:48.180
You made me a pie.
link |
02:44:50.820
This is incredible.
link |
02:44:51.820
Like this is incredible.
link |
02:44:53.020
So, and also it's another act to accept that kindness with a, it's, it's like a lot of times
link |
02:44:59.580
when I was like in Boston or San Francisco, certain big cities, you can think like, oh,
link |
02:45:04.780
okay, well they're trying to like somehow, that's not an act of kindness.
link |
02:45:10.140
It's some kind of a transactional thing to build up a, it's like a career move for networking,
link |
02:45:15.220
all that kind of stuff.
link |
02:45:16.220
But no, if you just accept it for what it is, a pure act of kindness, fucking Boston.
link |
02:45:21.140
Yeah.
link |
02:45:22.140
Yeah.
link |
02:45:23.140
Because for me, I go the opposite route because I'm not, even though there is a part of me
link |
02:45:26.540
that might be a little suspicious or something, where I go to push that shit back mentally
link |
02:45:32.900
is I'm like, I don't deserve this.
link |
02:45:34.940
If they knew what a piece of shit I am, you're gonna bring me, I don't ever bring cakes to
link |
02:45:39.500
my neighbors.
link |
02:45:40.500
I would know how to make a cake.
link |
02:45:41.740
I don't know how to make anything.
link |
02:45:42.740
I don't have time.
link |
02:45:43.740
I should be bringing shit to my neighbors.
link |
02:45:45.460
Why didn't I do that?
link |
02:45:46.460
I should have brought, I never do that.
link |
02:45:48.660
If you're not careful, you can spiral into a vortex of self hate from the gifts, so you
link |
02:45:54.700
have to, yeah, you have to learn how to, in that circuitry, you have to learn how to like
link |
02:45:59.580
accept.
link |
02:46:00.580
Oh yeah.
link |
02:46:01.580
I have that problem really big, yeah, like, I don't deserve this, like I don't, I get
link |
02:46:08.420
so much love from people.
link |
02:46:09.980
I'm like, well, yeah, they love me because they don't know me.
link |
02:46:13.700
That's my brain, my little voice, like, you're not, you're not worthy, you're not worthy
link |
02:46:21.100
of any of this kindness and all this kind of stuff, and that could be very, yeah, it
link |
02:46:27.540
can shut you down.
link |
02:46:28.540
It could be debilitating.
link |
02:46:30.380
And also it shuts the person down.
link |
02:46:32.060
I mean, you're talking.
link |
02:46:33.060
Yeah.
link |
02:46:34.060
And that's the dog size that pushes them away too.
link |
02:46:36.140
Yeah.
link |
02:46:37.140
You have this fucking mystical circuitry, so like, the best thing, if that happens to
link |
02:46:43.140
you, is like, accept it joyfully, and just even, just all that, whatever that thing inside
link |
02:46:49.940
of you, whatever that little thing is, you know, this is like, and then the meditation
link |
02:46:54.580
I do, it's an infuriatingly simple meditation, but when a thought emerges, when you're arresting
link |
02:47:02.920
your attention on your breath and then inevitably you think, you get lost in your thoughts,
link |
02:47:07.300
and when you catch yourself doing that, you think thinking, and then return your attention
link |
02:47:12.660
to the breath.
link |
02:47:13.660
So I like that, so that when that part of myself starts, you know, having its little
link |
02:47:18.180
neurotic semi seizure, I can just go thinking, whatever, it's just another thought, and then
link |
02:47:24.220
eat the, eat the, eat the banana bread or whatever they gave you.
link |
02:47:28.980
That's the most wild psychedelic experience you've ever had in a dream, in a vision.
link |
02:47:34.260
It doesn't have to be a drug related.
link |
02:47:36.860
What's one that jumps to mind that was like, holy shit, I'm happy to be alive.
link |
02:47:42.820
Is this life?
link |
02:47:43.820
Okay.
link |
02:47:44.820
This is amazing.
link |
02:47:45.820
Yeah.
link |
02:47:46.820
Yeah.
link |
02:47:47.820
Okay, so the one that pops to mind, I've had a lot of psychedelic experiences, but in
link |
02:47:54.260
this moment, the one that pops to mind only because it goes back to what you're talking
link |
02:47:57.860
about, about this Nietzsche's idea of infinite return.
link |
02:48:05.300
So I'm a burning man, and I'm not, I mean, I have kids right now, I just want to be around
link |
02:48:13.420
them.
link |
02:48:14.420
My wife was being so cool about it, and she knows I love burning man.
link |
02:48:16.780
She's like, go to burning man, and I was going to go, and then I'm, I just, I just want to
link |
02:48:20.380
be around my kids as much as I can right now, but I've never been to burning man.
link |
02:48:25.420
So I don't know how secretive it is that, I mean, cause quite high profile folks go.
link |
02:48:31.540
Yeah.
link |
02:48:32.540
Everyone knows Elon Musk goes there.
link |
02:48:34.180
Isn't it pretty open?
link |
02:48:35.180
He's got a boat.
link |
02:48:37.340
You know that?
link |
02:48:38.340
I'm touching none of this.
link |
02:48:39.700
You know, there's a, it's called art cars.
link |
02:48:41.140
They all make art cars.
link |
02:48:42.380
And like part of the, part of the burn, what's so beautiful about it is like, you can't buy
link |
02:48:48.180
anything there, man.
link |
02:48:49.420
Like you, I heard, I don't know if this has changed.
link |
02:48:53.820
It's been a bit because of the pandemic, but the only thing you could buy was ice and coffee.
link |
02:48:59.540
And I think maybe that's changed.
link |
02:49:01.260
I heard some whisper that that's changed, but so that means that it's a gifting economy
link |
02:49:07.300
is what they call it.
link |
02:49:08.300
And so people will just give you stuff, talk about having to struggle with deserving stuff,
link |
02:49:13.300
man.
link |
02:49:14.300
What are you going to fucking do when the camp next to you is like every morning making
link |
02:49:18.900
the best iced coffee that you've ever had in your life and they just, you're giving it
link |
02:49:23.740
all away till it's all gone.
link |
02:49:25.980
What are you going to do?
link |
02:49:27.980
It's the best ever.
link |
02:49:30.180
And then you're giving things to people.
link |
02:49:31.700
And then you, you learn stuff like you learn these really interesting lessons.
link |
02:49:36.980
Like a, one of the times I went there, got all these strawberries looks might not sound
link |
02:49:45.260
like a big deal.
link |
02:49:46.260
But when you're out there in the dust and you're not at one of like the like hardcore
link |
02:49:50.900
like luxury camps, which do exist out there, you know, you've got these like items where
link |
02:49:57.340
in my mind I'm like, yeah, these are going to be just for me and my girlfriend, my special
link |
02:50:02.060
stash fruit and this or that.
link |
02:50:05.020
And then like two days in, you're walking around your camp with the strawberries that
link |
02:50:11.540
you were coveting and everyone's so happy to get like cold strawberries.
link |
02:50:16.420
And you've realized, oh my God, this feels so much better than the way a strawberry tastes.
link |
02:50:21.420
So you learn something experientially there, which is an incredible thing.
link |
02:50:27.260
It's an incredible thing.
link |
02:50:28.740
Man, now I'm wishing I decided to go to Burning Man.
link |
02:50:31.900
Have you been in a few times?
link |
02:50:33.060
Yeah.
link |
02:50:34.060
I just know like, at least people were saying it was Elon Musk's boat.
link |
02:50:38.900
Like, yeah, like this.
link |
02:50:39.900
I think it was like, it's like this massive, it's art cars.
link |
02:50:43.660
And it was this party on this thing.
link |
02:50:45.260
You could just, anyone can go on the boat like no one's like, there's no guest list.
link |
02:50:50.980
You just go on there.
link |
02:50:52.180
I never saw him there, but that, you know, everyone's whispering Elon Musk is here.
link |
02:50:56.540
There's a secrecy.
link |
02:50:57.540
There's all that kind of stuff because you probably have to respect that.
link |
02:50:59.780
But at the same time, there, it seems like the kind of people that go there, I mean,
link |
02:51:06.660
the rules of the outside world are suspended in the sense that the, the crime, the aggression,
link |
02:51:17.220
the tensions, all of that seems to dissipate somehow.
link |
02:51:20.060
Not all the way.
link |
02:51:21.540
Not all the way.
link |
02:51:22.540
That, you know, there's a low, you could look it up, you know, because like there is tension.
link |
02:51:27.180
There's a lot of tension there between, it's called plug and plays, like, you know, Burning
link |
02:51:33.780
Man, like the history of Burning Man is fascinating.
link |
02:51:36.940
It has its roots in the Cacophony Society is what it was called, which is a sort of evolution
link |
02:51:44.580
of something that was, I think it was called the God, like the San Francisco.
link |
02:51:50.940
Basically there was like an art movement in San Francisco and I can't remember the name
link |
02:51:55.180
of it, maybe the suicide club or essentially like they were really into urban exploration
link |
02:52:02.220
and meaning like breaking into like old abandoned buildings and stuff.
link |
02:52:07.940
But part of this, what this was, was you would prepare your life as though you were going
link |
02:52:16.740
to kill yourself, you would get all your affairs in order, you would get, so it's going back
link |
02:52:21.660
to what we were talking about with the cancer diagnosis, you're like sort of putting yourself
link |
02:52:25.620
into that world of like, I'm going to get all my affairs together as though this is
link |
02:52:30.100
it and then there was some, I'm sorry for anyone listening if I'm butchering this, but
link |
02:52:33.860
I think there was some really cool initiation where they would blindfold you and they would
link |
02:52:37.940
take you into some of these abandoned buildings and you didn't know where you were walking,
link |
02:52:42.020
but they would say like, if you take one step to the left, you're going to die, you're going
link |
02:52:47.220
to fall, you're going to fall, so please be careful.
link |
02:52:50.220
So you're like in the moment and then blindfold comes off, it's a big awesome party.
link |
02:52:55.780
This evolves into something called the Cacophony Society, there's a great book called Tales
link |
02:53:00.140
of the Cacophony Society for people listening.
link |
02:53:04.260
One of the members of the Cacophony Society was the author of Fight Club, and so if you've
link |
02:53:10.660
seen Fight Club, like you could see little ideas that were in the Cacophony Society,
link |
02:53:14.980
they were into dadaism, which I don't know a lot about, like I don't know, it's a philosophical
link |
02:53:22.020
art movement, and then so basically what was happening is like they kept burning increasingly
link |
02:53:29.100
large effigies in San Francisco, and they weren't allowed to do it, and so they took
link |
02:53:34.700
it out in the desert, and they were basing it on something called a zone trip, which
link |
02:53:40.820
is like across this border, the rules of that old society are gone, and so that was the
link |
02:53:48.100
original Burning Man, which was these lunatics out in the desert launching like burning pianos
link |
02:53:57.740
out of catapults, through the air doing like drive by shooting ranges, like no rules, wild,
link |
02:54:06.620
magical, beautiful, insane madness, and then it grew and grew and grew and grew until you
link |
02:54:14.780
have Burning Man as it is today, which is still the most incredible thing, I mean obviously
link |
02:54:19.980
anytime you have like a thing that's been around for a while, you're gonna get that
link |
02:54:24.340
it's not like it used to be, it's not as free as it used to be, so this or that, but what's
link |
02:54:28.740
fascinating about Burning Man, someone pointed this out to me, look on the ground, no trash,
link |
02:54:36.060
no cigarettes, the ethic of like picking up your shit there is like so intense, so it's
link |
02:54:43.180
not like the other festivals you go to where there's just trash everywhere, shit scattered
link |
02:54:47.220
everywhere, it's clean, people are picking up their stuff, people are like really being
link |
02:54:53.780
conscious of like not fucking up the playa, so I'm sorry, don't get up and you don't
link |
02:54:58.900
get a burner yapping about Burning Man, we won't stop, it'll be morning, but there's
link |
02:55:04.020
a power there, but there is a power to culture propagating itself through to the stories
link |
02:55:09.900
that we tell each other and that holds up for Burning Man, it's clear that the culture
link |
02:55:15.580
has stayed strong throughout the years, there's so many people, so many really interesting
link |
02:55:21.300
people speak of Burning Man as like a sacred place they go to, to remind themselves about
link |
02:55:30.180
what's important, that's so interesting.
link |
02:55:32.660
And it is, and it is, I mean it's like, you know there are all these stories of like,
link |
02:55:36.860
I love guru stories, I have a guru, Neem Karoli Baba, never met him, he was Ram Das's guru,
link |
02:55:42.300
at least not in the flesh, but the story of the guru is if you're lucky you meet this
link |
02:55:47.100
being that, and we're not talking about you know whatever the run of the mill like charlatans
link |
02:55:53.460
out there, like I know for sure that people are in the world right now who, when you're
link |
02:56:04.100
around them, you, the thing you're talking about, the affirmation of the potential of
link |
02:56:09.860
humanity and also just an acceptance of yourself and you know cultivate, like seeing someone
link |
02:56:15.340
who's cultivated love or compassion or whatever, but in this way that is, I mean you would
link |
02:56:24.620
almost, you would rather meet that being than like a UFO land in your backyard, it's like
link |
02:56:30.740
it is the UFO, it's a person but it's not, it's everybody and nobody and somehow they
link |
02:56:36.940
like end up conveying to you ideas that you may have heard a million times before, but
link |
02:56:45.260
somehow within the language itself is a transmission that permanently alters you, and so these
link |
02:56:53.140
people exist, I think you could argue that Burning Man, the total thing is a guru, that
link |
02:57:02.180
a pilgrimage is involved to get there, you, like it's not easy to get there, and when
link |
02:57:08.500
you get there, it's gonna teach you something, it's gonna show you something, it's going
link |
02:57:14.620
to, and know what maybe some of the stuff it shows you might not be great, but the community
link |
02:57:21.340
around you will like, will hold you as you're like whatever the thing is that's coming
link |
02:57:28.700
out of you, it's coming out of you.
link |
02:57:30.180
And even the simplest activities, the simplest exchange of words have like just like the
link |
02:57:36.540
gurus of a profound impact somehow, something about that place.
link |
02:57:42.620
Yeah, not to mention the insane synchronicities, like insane synchronicities there, and I think
link |
02:57:49.260
like, you know, to get back to the notion of sentience as a byproduct of a harmonized
link |
02:57:56.700
yet hypercomplex system, I think synchronicities like those kinds of systems are like lightning
link |
02:58:03.780
rods for synchronicity, so crazy, not just because your high synchronicities happen that
link |
02:58:11.580
are impossible, where you just have to deal with it, and like you'll need something and
link |
02:58:17.140
within a few minutes, someone's like, oh, here you go.
link |
02:58:20.460
And you mentioned, by the way, Burning Man because of a psychedelic experience, is it
link |
02:58:25.940
the strawberries or was it something else?
link |
02:58:28.820
No.
link |
02:58:29.820
What was the moment?
link |
02:58:30.820
Yeah, that was magical.
link |
02:58:31.820
No, it was DMT.
link |
02:58:32.820
It wasn't strawberries.
link |
02:58:33.820
No, I was more potent.
link |
02:58:34.820
Yeah, I was like smoking DMT, and like, I saw, like, if you, in the Midnight Gospel,
link |
02:58:54.140
there are these bovine creatures that have like a long neck and a lantern head, so like,
link |
02:58:59.740
I saw one of those things, and, you know, I thought it was funny and like ridiculous
link |
02:59:11.100
because you hear like all the Terrence McKenna stories of the self transforming machine elves
link |
02:59:16.460
or all the purple or the magenta goddess everyone sees, so I'm like, so this is what
link |
02:59:22.540
I get?
link |
02:59:23.540
Like a fucking cow with a lantern head, like that's where my brain is at and interacting
link |
02:59:28.980
with this molecule, so then, like, I look away, and again, this is DMT, so when I say
link |
02:59:39.980
look away, do I mean, with my eyes shut, I look away, or eyes open, I look away, I think
link |
02:59:44.380
eyes shut, so it sounds weird to say look away, but however you want to put it, that's
link |
02:59:50.780
what I did, and I look back, and it's still there, only now it's, you know, because usually
link |
02:59:56.340
in like, when you're having those kinds of visions, they go away pretty quickly, things
link |
03:00:01.580
like moved like shambled ahead, maybe a few steps, just like a cow, just like a cow, and
link |
03:00:08.540
then that was when the, you know, all the stories you hear about it, like going through
link |
03:00:13.820
some kind of tuber, some kind of light tunnel, like a water slide made of light, or that's
link |
03:00:20.900
increasingly familiar, that's the wildest part of it, it's like, oh, I know this place,
link |
03:00:25.460
not like, oh, I've seen this in like, you know, on like bong stickers, but like, oh,
link |
03:00:30.620
yeah, this is that place you gotta do, you just remember, oh, this place, and then, it
link |
03:00:37.580
was like I was in some kind of, I don't know how to put it, a chamber, a technological chamber,
link |
03:00:44.580
some kind of supercomputer, some kind of nucleus that was technological, and it was inviting,
link |
03:00:50.660
there was an invitation of like, come in, like come deeper into, come deeper in, and you
link |
03:00:58.100
can talk to whatever it is over there, you don't talk, but there's a communication, and
link |
03:01:02.940
I communicated, but my friends, I don't, I love my friends, I guess I had some sense
link |
03:01:09.780
in that moment that it would mean complete obliteration, or who knows what, and the response
link |
03:01:16.500
that it gave back was, you can always go back there, and that's when I open my eyes, I'm
link |
03:01:22.140
back, totally, you know, and ever since then, that's caused me to revise my thinking on
link |
03:01:29.100
reincarnation, the idea that you die and you start as a baby, and then live your life again,
link |
03:01:34.900
it goes right into what we were talking about, you know, that maybe data, you know, that the
link |
03:01:39.980
shit I saw in nitrous oxide, I feel dumb that my epiphanies are all related to drugs, but
link |
03:01:44.580
not all of them are, a lot of them, but this notion of like, oh, is it that we're imprinting
link |
03:01:53.260
into the medium of time space every thing we do, and that that is a permanent imprint,
link |
03:02:01.260
a frame, that upon death can be accessed in the same way we can pull up pictures on our
link |
03:02:10.260
phone or computers, and not only accessed, but experienced, as though, in other words,
link |
03:02:18.500
you could just jump in, you're still going to have your memories, it's going to give
link |
03:02:22.500
you a, the illusion of having been a kid and gotten to that frame, but no, you just decided
link |
03:02:29.420
to go back there, nostalgia, whatever, and yeah, you can jump around freely in space
link |
03:02:36.740
and time.
link |
03:02:37.740
Yeah, you can go in and out of time space, but when you, the problem is, when you go
link |
03:02:41.220
into time space, it's time, so it's going to feel sticky, it's going to feel like you've
link |
03:02:45.900
been here forever because you've dropped back onto the track that Nietzsche's talking about,
link |
03:02:51.740
and I guess one of the qualities of dropping into that frame is that you forget your higher,
link |
03:02:58.580
higher dimensional identity.
link |
03:03:01.060
What happened to the cow with the lantern?
link |
03:03:04.980
Was that goodbye?
link |
03:03:06.980
He writes me letters sometimes, never saw it again, never saw it again, but I put it
link |
03:03:14.660
in, we put it in the Midnight Gospel, you know, I, like Pendleton was like, it's such
link |
03:03:20.140
a genius, and he was, he drew it for me, and then it just ended up as a part of the show.
link |
03:03:24.540
But by the way, I have to admit that as a big fan of yours, I haven't watched the Midnight
link |
03:03:29.300
Gospel because I've been waiting, it sounds, he's do these stupid things, but ever since
link |
03:03:35.340
you talked to, maybe two years ago with Joe about it, I've been waiting to do, to watch
link |
03:03:41.660
it with like a special person on mushrooms, that's been in my to do, I don't know, of
link |
03:03:47.180
course you don't have to be on mushrooms to enjoy it, but for some reason I put it into
link |
03:03:51.500
my head that this is something I want to do with somebody else, like experience it and
link |
03:03:56.060
get in the wild, because visually, I mean, I watched a bunch of it just a little bit
link |
03:04:01.420
here and there, but it's just visually such an interesting experience, combined with
link |
03:04:07.740
everything else, obviously the ideas, the voices and so on, but just visually it's like,
link |
03:04:15.260
it's like a super psychedelic version of Rick and Morty or something like that, like, you
link |
03:04:20.020
know, like farther out, while they're out there, so.
link |
03:04:23.260
Yeah man, that's Pendleton, you know, these are, these people, I mean like, I was part
link |
03:04:29.300
of that, in the sense that like Pendleton gave every, like one of the reasons he's like
link |
03:04:36.260
such a genius and great at making stuff is like, he's like, he really does a good job
link |
03:04:41.140
of just like, dehierchizing potential like hierarchies that can appear, you know, someone
link |
03:04:47.780
has to be like, driving the bus, and that was Pendleton, but he lets, he's so inclusive,
link |
03:04:54.180
there's a real punk rock thing that he's doing, which is like, he'll take everything and it
link |
03:04:59.500
kind of mixes its way into the show, but one of the things, you know, in, in, in animation,
link |
03:05:07.180
it can get really strict with like, drawing the characters and like, the, like, trying
link |
03:05:14.900
to create continuity in the way the character looks, like, and it can get really brute for
link |
03:05:21.260
the animator, it can get brutally precise, like it has to be precise, but he figured
link |
03:05:27.060
out that if you just sort of, it's not like obviously like Clancy had to look like Clancy
link |
03:05:33.220
through the whole show, but if you allow the various people animating it to sort of have
link |
03:05:37.700
their own spin on it, then suddenly it creates a very psychedelic, you know, the show looks
link |
03:05:44.220
more psychedelic because it looks more organic, and also the amount of time, I had no idea,
link |
03:05:49.100
the amount of time that goes into making digital art look like that is, it's insane, the amount
link |
03:05:58.940
of work and comping that stuff is just crazy.
link |
03:06:04.060
It's crazy.
link |
03:06:05.060
Well, generally the amount of time it takes, even just like a painting, when you, I really
link |
03:06:10.540
enjoy watching like artists do a time lapse, and you realize how much effort just into
link |
03:06:15.500
a single image goes into it, you know, hours and hours and hours, sometimes days, sometimes
link |
03:06:21.500
weeks and months, and then you just get to see them work, but they lose themselves in
link |
03:06:26.620
the craftsmanship of it, and the rhythm of it, and like, because they're focused on the,
link |
03:06:32.260
so we were talking about robotics earlier, like on the little details, like, they're
link |
03:06:36.300
never looked, well, most of the time isn't spent looking at the big picture of the final
link |
03:06:41.300
result, it's looking at the little details there and so on, and there, but they're nevertheless
link |
03:06:45.940
able to somehow constantly channel the big picture of the final result.
link |
03:06:50.540
My God.
link |
03:06:51.540
Yeah.
link |
03:06:52.540
The respect I have for animators, it's like, dear God, it's the craziest thing when you
link |
03:06:58.900
watch it, when you see what it looks like, and how much time goes into it, and how zen
link |
03:07:03.940
they have to be, because like, no matter what, you're going to have to cut stuff, man.
link |
03:07:07.380
And when you're cutting like a few seconds of animation, that was someone's like month,
link |
03:07:12.060
maybe, you know, and like, they understand, but still it's like, whoa, it's brutal.
link |
03:07:19.260
And so they have like this zen outlook on it, which is really cool.
link |
03:07:26.500
And they watch podcasts, that's the other cool thing, when you realize like, they're
link |
03:07:29.220
listening to podcasts, they're like, that's really cool to see that aspect of it too,
link |
03:07:34.500
but yeah, man, I, you know.
link |
03:07:36.620
Yeah.
link |
03:07:37.620
Your voice is in the ears of a lot of interesting people.
link |
03:07:39.980
It's not.
link |
03:07:40.980
Wars too.
link |
03:07:41.980
And I, you know.
link |
03:07:42.980
Hello, interesting person.
link |
03:07:43.980
Hello, CIA animators.
link |
03:07:46.980
Eating delicious food in the cafeteria.
link |
03:07:48.900
Yeah.
link |
03:07:49.900
I'm on your side.
link |
03:07:50.900
He's against you.
link |
03:07:51.900
I'm with you.
link |
03:07:52.900
Yeah.
link |
03:07:53.900
Do you have, you have a beard, therefore you must be wise.
link |
03:07:57.020
Do you have advice for young people, high school, college, about how to carve their path
link |
03:08:04.300
through life?
link |
03:08:05.300
I don't have a life, a career that's successful that they can be proud of or a life they can
link |
03:08:12.100
be proud of.
link |
03:08:13.100
Man, see, this is what kind of, this is what sucks about my life is that it's been very
link |
03:08:20.420
random and very spontaneous.
link |
03:08:23.740
So unfortunately, I don't get that thing where I could be like, well, here's what I did.
link |
03:08:28.900
Yeah.
link |
03:08:29.900
Like, I don't, like I inherited $12,000 from my grandmother.
link |
03:08:35.980
Here's what you do, kids.
link |
03:08:37.060
You inherit $12,000 when your grandmother dies and then you need to be dumb enough to
link |
03:08:41.700
think that that $12,000 is going to help you live in LA for a year.
link |
03:08:46.340
So then what you do is you move to LA with $12,000 and you find a shitty place that you
link |
03:08:53.060
live at and then you use that money to buy acid and synthesizers and then you run out
link |
03:08:58.700
of the money and then you have to get a job and so then because you think it'll be fun
link |
03:09:05.540
to work at a comedy club, you get a job at the comedy store and then, you know, that's
link |
03:09:11.060
how it happened for me and none of it, there wasn't, I know it was never out of the confidence
link |
03:09:14.980
to be like, I'm going to be a stand up comedian.
link |
03:09:18.660
No way.
link |
03:09:19.660
I just thought it'd be cool to work in that building, I thought the building looked cool.
link |
03:09:23.980
And so, but then because you work at the comedy store, you get stage time, the reason you
link |
03:09:31.500
work there is at least in those days, because it's not like they're paying a shit ton of
link |
03:09:36.340
money for you to answer phones at a comedy club.
link |
03:09:39.260
And so, you know, I started going on stage and then I just got lucky because Rogan saw
link |
03:09:46.980
me have a very rare good set.
link |
03:09:50.340
I didn't know he was in the room or out of bomb, you know, and then like, because he
link |
03:09:54.220
thought I was funny and he liked talking to me, he started taking me on the road with
link |
03:09:57.140
him.
link |
03:09:58.140
And then, you know, so I don't know, man, I think.
link |
03:10:01.660
Was there an element to, there's a beautiful weirdness to you as a human being.
link |
03:10:07.460
Was there like a pressure to conform ever to hide yourself from the world or the $12,000
link |
03:10:18.420
in the ass that give you the confidence you needed to be yourself?
link |
03:10:21.300
Oh, no, I don't like, I still, I know, I think, sure, there's that pressure and like,
link |
03:10:27.340
you know, whenever you're, you're beginning to really differentiate from your parents,
link |
03:10:31.900
but then you go back to hang out with your parents, you'll feel, you can feel that it's
link |
03:10:36.980
not like they even want you to conform, but you'll just, you could slip into that, whatever
link |
03:10:40.660
that was.
link |
03:10:41.660
So I remember that when I would go back and like visit them and stuff and surely conformity
link |
03:10:47.900
or the pressure to like, not be individual or whatever, it's everywhere, man.
link |
03:10:53.620
Do you think you made your parents proud?
link |
03:10:56.500
No, no, no, no, I, well, I think that when my mom died, I felt successful in the sense
link |
03:11:10.780
that I was able to support my, I was, I was making money from doing standup in my, I didn't
link |
03:11:19.420
need help.
link |
03:11:20.420
I was like, I was supporting myself with art and doing good, what I thought was great then.
link |
03:11:24.980
So, and I think she like, because she had witnessed me literally failing, I mean, which
link |
03:11:31.660
is by the way, I think part of, if you want to be an artist or successful, you're, you
link |
03:11:37.300
kind of have to fail, like there, if, if, and if there was a guaranteed route from sucking
link |
03:11:45.980
to not sucking or from like the neophyte phase of whatever the art form is and, you know,
link |
03:11:55.220
some intermediary phase, then I think a lot more people would do it, but there really
link |
03:12:00.020
is no guarantees in it, especially the standup comedy.
link |
03:12:03.300
It's like, you'd have to be a maniac to want to, to think that that's going to work out
link |
03:12:08.020
for you.
link |
03:12:09.020
You have to, so you're going to, there are obviously exceptions, but for me, it was like
link |
03:12:16.460
a long slog, you know, and that's scary for a mom.
link |
03:12:21.020
So, but that being said, when she was dying, like she did recognize that I was like not
link |
03:12:29.420
slogging anymore, and she did say, she said, you did it, and that's cool, but in, you know,
link |
03:12:38.420
I would love for her to see me now, like now I'd be way cooler, but maybe she does.
link |
03:12:42.780
I don't know.
link |
03:12:43.780
She's listening to your podcast elsewhere and the other, and the, in the bardo.
link |
03:12:48.780
Yeah.
link |
03:12:49.780
Yeah.
link |
03:12:50.780
However, long that lasts, reconfiguring the whole process to start again.
link |
03:12:55.340
Um, you as a father know, how did that change you?
link |
03:12:59.660
Yeah.
link |
03:13:00.660
That's the big change, man.
link |
03:13:02.380
That's the thing.
link |
03:13:03.380
You made, you made a few biological entities.
link |
03:13:05.860
I reproduce.
link |
03:13:06.860
Yeah.
link |
03:13:07.860
I made biological entities.
link |
03:13:08.860
I mean, I came in my wife.
link |
03:13:10.420
Let's face it.
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03:13:11.420
Like I would love to say I made them, but the womb whipped them up.
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But it is the, yeah, it's the best.
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It's, I've never experienced anything like it before.
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It is the, as far as I'm concerned, the greatest thing that has ever happened to me.
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And that's why I was able to answer your Nietzsche question with like, hell, yes, fuck, yes.
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03:13:33.180
That's great.
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I get to be around my kids again.
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I'll always be around my kids.
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I'll always be around my children.
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That's incredible.
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That's the joy.
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03:13:40.500
So like, so for me, the part of myself that used to torture myself more specific like
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around like my mom dying, feeling like I wasn't there enough for her, wishing that I had spent
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more time with her, wishing I'd spent more time with my dad, wishing that like, you know,
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looking back at like how like I was just so desperately trying to evade the fact that
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she was dying and through, and in that evasion successfully like distanced myself from her
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03:14:13.420
and like in ways that I really wish I hadn't, I'm just saying that because like it's one
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of my regrets.
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03:14:22.220
It's like a big regret.
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I have a lot of little regrets, but that's a big one.
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03:14:26.380
And so when you have kids, you look back at everything you did and you think like, fuck,
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if I'd gone left at that point instead of right, if I had eaten, who knows?
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03:14:45.820
What if I'd eaten like a turkey sandwich when my balls were creating the cum that was going
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to make my kids?
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Would I have a different kid with this being not exist in my life?
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03:14:59.060
Like you start looking at everything and you realize like, thank God, thank God for every
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single thing that happened to me because it all led up to this.
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03:15:08.900
And oh, for me that is the, it frees you and it liberates you because you realize like,
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oh wow, it's clumsy and selfish and at times rotten as I've been in my life that did not
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impede the universe at all from allowing these two beautiful beings to exist in the world.
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So maybe all of it enabled, all of it like a concert perfectly led up to that little
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beautiful moment.
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03:15:48.740
Is there ways you would like to be a better father?
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03:15:52.300
Oh yeah, for sure, absolutely.
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There's a, there's an actual, I read something in a book.
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It's called Good Enough, the mantra for a parent, good enough because when you are in
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the presence of something you love more than you've ever experienced love, you want to
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03:16:14.580
be perfect.
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03:16:15.580
Like you want to be, I can't, I got to work, man.
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I got to go on the road.
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I've got to work.
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I got to support the family.
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03:16:20.900
So that means I have to work like, I work, you know, you know what it's like having a
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podcast, you fucking work, man, and, you know, it's a full time job because I've, you know,
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03:16:32.780
I do stand up too and all the other stuff.
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03:16:34.820
So I feel sometimes I feel like, oh my God, I want to spend more time with them.
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03:16:40.740
Like I should be spending more time with them.
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03:16:42.180
But then also I want to create, I want to work.
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03:16:45.420
I like being like the provider.
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So that's something I feel guilty about, you know, right now.
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And I'm struggling how to balance that correctly.
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And meanwhile time just marches on.
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Just goes.
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03:17:02.340
And all of this will be forgotten, both you and I, but forgotten in time.
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That's what I say to them every time I'm putting them to bed.
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03:17:15.780
We will be lost in the sands of time.
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You know that, I bet you know this poem.
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You know that poem, Ozzy Mandious?
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03:17:22.620
Yes.
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Can I read you a poem?
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Okay.
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Let's, let's end our conversation in a poem.
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I love it.
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It's by Pierce Bych Shelley, probably mispronouncing the name, but I think you'll get it.
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There's no right way to pronounce anything.
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03:17:41.380
Thank you.
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03:17:42.380
Thank you.
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03:17:43.380
I'm Ozzy Mandious.
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03:17:45.740
I met a traveler from an antique land who said, two vast and trunkless legs of stone
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stand in the desert, near them on the sand, half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
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03:18:00.340
and wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command tell that it sculptor well those passions
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03:18:06.980
red, which yet survive stamped on these lifeless things, the hand that mocked them and the
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03:18:13.540
heart that fed and on the pedestal, these words appear, my name is Ozzy Mandious, King
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03:18:20.580
of Kings, look on my works ye mighty and despair, nothing besides remains around the decay of
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03:18:27.740
that colossal wreck, boundless and bare, the lone and level sand stretch far away.
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03:18:38.220
All gone, behold the king, look on my works ye mighty and despair, and despair, even
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03:18:47.620
though we'll be forgotten in the sands of time, Duncan, I'm just so glad that you exist
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and you put so much love into the world over the past many years that I've gotten just
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to enjoy it by being your fan, and thank you so much for continuing that and for sharing
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03:19:03.340
a bit of love with me today.
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Can we be friends?
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03:19:05.780
Let's be friends.
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03:19:06.780
In real time, in the real world, in 3D space?
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03:19:09.580
Nothing is real, but yes, in this particular slice of the multidimensional world we'll
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live in.
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It will be an honor and a pleasure.
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Thank you for having me on your show.
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03:19:17.300
Yeah.
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03:19:18.300
Love you, Duncan.
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03:19:19.300
I love you.
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03:19:20.300
Thank you, Lex.
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03:19:21.300
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Duncan Trussell.
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03:19:23.380
To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.
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03:19:27.460
And now, let me leave you with some words from Duncan Trussell himself.
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03:19:32.300
You are essentially just the cloud of atoms that will eventually be aerosolized by time.
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03:19:40.300
Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.