When you imagine a song, is it the opening you imagine?

No, it's kind of a, it's just a, I never think opening, I never think final.

I think soundscape of how I'm feeling right now.

So it could be the middle of the song for all I know when I'm, you know, when I'm doing that.

But my process for me is very much lyrics and melody and music really come at the same time.

Like, I, by same time, I mean, I'm, I'm a, as I'm expressing, maybe, you know, I'm feeling like

Like, it's not that simple, but it's like, I'll, I'll hear it.

Like, it's like, here's all the orchestra and you're kind of just pressing all the buttons at once.

And melody in my voice is just one of those instruments.

The following is a conversation with Dan Reynolds, the lead singer of Imagine Dragons,

one of the most popular bands in the world with over 75 million records sold and with

four songs being streamed over a billion times on Spotify. Given all that, Dan is one of the most

down to earth, kind, thoughtful, and fascinating human beings I've ever met, grounded in part

by his lifelong struggled mental health. The darkness, the love, and the creative brilliance

are all there in this one humble mind. For this reason, and many others would became fast friends.

Plus, he recently started his journey in programming, which funny enough is where we start this

wide ranging, deeply personal, and fun conversation. This is Alex Friedman podcast.

To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now dear friends, here's Dan

Reynolds. So we were talking offline that you're not just getting into programming.

What's the most beautiful program you've ever written? Something that brought you joy.

There's something I really love completion. It's the reason that I'm addicted to songwriting.

I like there being nothing and then having some blocks or tools and building them into

what you want it to look like. And then I find it incredibly rewarding to

stand back and look at what you did at the end. It could be anything for me. It's

it was as simple to begin with as just, you know, because it's object oriented, like

making a cube move. Simple as that. Understanding that and knowing that I built that and made it do

that is really rewarding. And I think it's the thing that drew me into wanting to learn more.

But as far as what is some grand, like some big piece of code that I've done, like,

absolutely not. It's more, I'm still a level where it's more like, what is a tutorial that I followed

and got, you know, and then, you know, yeah. So I couldn't say I'm at a level where I've

done anything beautiful at all in code. But you're also interested in potentially,

like your heart is drawn to creating games.

Creating anything.

And completing it.

Yeah.

That's the good, the feel good as it's done.

Yeah. I mean, I've been working over the last two years with actually a team out of Kiev on,

and we can get into that as a whole nother story, but on a computer game. And really,

I've kept that kind of under wraps, but yeah, we're kind of getting to a point now where

we have a prototype that we can play and it's a lot of fun. And thankfully, all the team members

are in safe places now. Things have obviously been on hold for a little bit. But, you know,

when that started is when I really decided, okay, I need to understand base level coding

and C sharp. So I'm not an idiot talking to these people. And so it's, you know,

we've been doing that for a couple of years.

So any parallels between the final completion that you feel with programming,

which I think is a little bit more definitive, like there's debugging, the code doesn't work,

it's messing and so on. There's the early design stages, you're not sure,

like how to have functions and classes, how it's all going to work. And then it comes together,

and it's really done because it works. And there's a cube moving on the screen.

Right, right. Is there any parallels between that and music? Because are you really ever done,

done with a song? It's exactly the same thing for me, just in that it's art.

I really believe that we have not fully encapsulated artists. Like when we say art,

I think most people think, okay, the medium must be painting or drawing or music or writing. But

I really believe anytime you're creating something, engineers, for instance, you're

creating something with tools that you have, and it can be incredibly beautiful.

And so yeah, I think, and it's never done. I feel like I look at songs that I've done,

and I never felt you have to let go or I have to let go. And that's all I've,

I'm just continually making myself let go. But I look at songs that I've done and wish

I had done more or kept going down that road and what would have happened. And I'm really

contained to, because of what our band is and what our fans expect, and there's so much more to it

that it's like, I'm fitting in a box always. It's like this song shouldn't be longer than

three minutes and 30 seconds. And I don't know if I remember the chorus after I heard it. Maybe I

need to hear the chorus three times instead of those two times. There's certain, especially in

pop music, it's really hard to... Yeah, it feels like there's confines, even though people are

like, well, there's no confines, but still everybody's writing a pop song that's a few minutes.

Are those explicit in your mind, or are they just kind of... The gut is, like you said,

chorus. Should you have chorus once, twice, or three times? Is that a gut thing or is that a

rule thing? I think it's a rule. I mean, it's obviously a rule I impose on myself. Nobody's

in my house saying, hey, Dan, if you don't do this, I'm going to punish you. There's no major

label president that's like, imagine Dragons needs to make pop music, Dan. You know what I mean? My

manager doesn't even tell me that. I do it because it's what I perceive to be enjoyable. I grew up

listening to a ton of pop music, and then I ended up being in what is quote unquote a rock band,

which I've never perceived it as that, but that's kind of what the world has called it, and that's

fine. So you're a prisoner of a prison that you yourself constructed. There you go. The confines

are yours. I'm a happy, I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm a happy prisoner of the prison that I

have created for myself, and I made that prison thinking that it was a mansion. So you worked

with Rick Rubin. What does Rick think about your prison? Rick was interesting to hear

his outside opinion when we first met because my biggest focus for so much of my life, my biggest

fear was, and this stems from, I think, middle schools when it started, but everyone being in

on a joke except for yourself. The thought of thinking you're good at something and really

you're terrible at it, and you're surrounded by people who are saying, yeah, you're good at it,

and then by themselves are like, he's terrible at this, and not just in regards to music or art,

but anything in life. And I think maybe from having six older brothers, it stems from that too,

like always feeling inadequate and like the annoying younger brother. But anyway, so Rick's,

and that's something I've learned to let go of is I've gotten older and had life experiences, but

one of the things that Rick said really early on that has stuck with me was he said, yeah,

we were resuming the first time we met. He said, I'd really like to work with you because I feel

like you're not confined to a sound. You've done a lot of different sounds, and so it's exciting

because I feel like your fans are forgiving more than other rock bands or bands because most people

when they hear a band, it's like there's a very specific sound with it. It's like they do folk

music, or they do California rock, or they do surf, or they do, and your fans kind of want that,

they want them to do that thing, and then they don't do it. And sometimes that goes well,

but a lot of times it doesn't. And people in critics and everybody is like, go back to the

thing that you did good and do that. Rick felt, whether he was right or wrong, that we could do,

we hopped genre so much. And that's been to our benefit and detriment, I think.

Why detriment?

Because people want you to be something. You can believe it more. It's like...

It's more authentic if you never change.

I guess. I don't know. I mean, it's certainly it's not something I subscribe to because I create

music, but I also grew up listening to a lot of different genres. I would listen to Cat Stevens,

and the next song would be like Biggie, and then the next song would be Nirvana. It was like, I like

a lot of it, and then Billy Joel, and then Enya. It was like, you know what I mean? I was a product,

and I was a product of the 90s, which if you listen to 90s music, it really was a lot of

reason that people say, well, 90s were terrible. Like a lot of people say that. I love the 90s

were my favorite decade of music. There was a lot of genre hopping, and I don't know. I love that.

She had the 90s had the boy bands, and it had Pearl Jam and Nirvana.

And it had a lot of women of the 90s was probably my biggest influence,

kind of that angry rock women of the 90s, like Lannis Morsett, Jag of Little Pills,

one of my favorite records of all time. The lyrics were so intimate, and I don't know if

she was angry or not. Sorry if she wasn't. Yeah, but there was an anger to it.

There was angst. Yeah, it was angstiness. And that in hip hop of the 90s influences me,

and then my dad. So anything my dad listened to, which my dad didn't listen to any of that,

my dad listened to like Harry Nelson, The Beatles, Cat Stevens, Bob Dylan, Paul Simon,

Billy Joel. It was very much like singer songwriter.

Do you mind if we throughout this listen to a few songs, because you mentioned here in this

and I was actually yesterday and the day before listening to a lot of his stuff. And it's just like,

damn, he's good. And not as known as he should be. Like I was getting, do you mind if I play?

No, please. Yeah. I don't know, not to open this conversation with a love song.

I would like that actually. But without you is an incredible song. Oh man, that's yeah.

And the heartbreak in the in the longing.

What? He's the best to do it in my opinion. In my opinion, he's the best to do it.

I guess that's just the vocal range. And just the sadness of like

there's something I don't even want to talk over him because this is one of my favorite songs too.

But I think people have a really good bullshit indicator. And

music, in my opinion, whenever I meet a young artist and say, well, I'm trying to make a new

band and I want to do something like how to be successful, I really think understanding that

people have a really good bullshit indicator is the most important part of being an artist.

And I'll explain what that means, at least to me. I think that in order to have success or be a

leader or or whether it's an art or anything, people need to believe that you believe what you're

doing. I think the best actors, really when they're doing their thing, it's like they,

it's not acting. They're in it. And it's how they feel. And they're expressing that sorrow or joy

or whatever it is. Harry, for me, Harry Nelson, I just believe it. He sings that and I feel it.

And whether he's the greatest bullshit or of all time, or I don't think that's the case,

I think he probably was singing that song and he just could transport himself to wherever he was.

It's what makes a great live act. It's what makes a great song. And someone could be the best actor

and sing that in the same timber, same EQ, same compression, same everything. And there's some

unknown there that I, you know, I don't, I think hopefully it will be known at some point at some

scientific thing, but there's something there that the energy or something that people can perceive

it and say, true or false. And if it resonates, it's true. It's so much more meaningful and it lives

on. And if it doesn't, that for me is what is good art or bad. Like for people to dispute over,

like, well, sonics should sound like that's silly to me. It's like a song or even a painting. Like

it's just the truthfulness of it. Yeah, the, the truly great art ghost has to go to that place

where you really are feeling it. Like you forget that you're being recorded. If you get there as an

audience, you really are feeling it. Yeah, which I totally agree with you. One of the things that I

love about the internet is it's brought the bullshit detector of the masses to power,

which is beautiful, because then the masses uplift the really authentic. And even if you

didn't write the song, I think it helps a lot probably if you wrote the song. But, you know,

I was, I was, I was a little bit, maybe a lot since we're in Vegas, a little heartbroken that

to find out that Elvis didn't write his songs. But I like, for example, Rocket Man, Elton John,

like to find out that Elton John didn't really know where the words of Rocket Man came from,

meaning like the depths of it. It's interesting. But nevertheless, he's super authentic,

because for Elton John and for Elvis, there's something in the, in the fun and the darkness

and the entertainment of it. Like he goes to some place in his mind that might not be deeply

connected from where the lyrics came from. But he relates it. He relates it to whatever is in his

mind and goes to that place emotionally. Yeah. And that's what I think it is. And that's why an

actor, like I said, can be completely honest to me. Maybe they didn't write the script. But I

write off, like I've always written all my own lyrics. It's a really personal thing to me.

But I will say, I see people all the time who are performers like Elton John, for instance,

who didn't write the lyrics that I believe that they, it means just as much to them as what I

wrote, because they find the meaning in it for themselves, at least the greats do. And I think

that that's the difference maker. And I think you can perceive, and I'm sure you've seen art

that doesn't move you. And maybe it moves someone else. But for you, for some reason, you perceive

it to be uninteresting to you. And I feel like a lot of the time, I'm going to say that it's,

of course, sonically, maybe it's uninteresting to you. But I think the majority of the time,

for myself, I can find inspiration in any sonic value or painting as long as I see it,

and I feel truth from the person that created it.

Yeah. But for me, the lyrics, maybe not the entirety of the lyrics, but a few words can

do wonders to take you to a place. And sometimes those words don't need to be connected with

the other words. That's the beauty of music. They're allowed to float in the space of mixed

metaphors. They're allowed to just jump around and somehow it paints a picture without actually,

what is it, glycerine by Bush? Right. But it's also how the person says it, right? It's like,

it's the feeling of exactly, and the same person could say that word 10 other ways,

and you don't care. But someone says glycerine or whatever it is. And it's like, oh, you know

what? I feel that for some way. The way he said that, he meant it to me. You know what I mean?

And no, I can't forget this evening, or your face as you were leaving, but I guess that's

just the way the story goes. You always smile, but in your eyes, your sorrow shows. Yes, it shows.

Let me ask you to analyze this song. So there's a lady possibly who's leaving him.

Do you think he's leaving her or she's leaving him? She wants to...

When I think of all my sorrow, when I had you there, but then I had let you go.

And now it's only fair that I should let you know what you should know.

And then the chorus is, I can't live if living is without you. I can't live, I can't give anymore.

He's got a voice on him. Yeah, he does. And if you really,

there's been some incredible documentation on his life and the end of his life. And

so my answer to this is probably skewed based on what I've seen about his life, too. But he was

a real alcoholic at the end of his life and it destroyed his voice and ended up killing him as well.

So when I hear that, I perceive it as

someone who is destructive and in a destructive place in life and can't love someone properly.

And so they can't live with them, but they can't live without them type thing,

which is really something that I really identify with and I think is one of the struggles of life

is loving yourself enough. It's forgiving yourself for things and letting yourself love someone else.

And at least when I listen to that, I hear Harry being like, and maybe I'm wrong, but this is how

I perceive it at least is not loving himself and feeling like he's deserving of this person.

Like, I have to let you go. I hear that, of course, and people are like, oh, well,

he's breaking up with her. But there's so much more complexity and nuance to the relationships.

My wife and I went through really difficult separation. And that's a story for another day

or a different question or something. But the nuance of it makes me think of this when I hear

this, which is there's just more to being with someone or not being with someone than, hey,

I think that person's really attractive or hey, that person makes me laugh or not. I love them

and now I don't love them. Love is such a complex nuanced thing that a lot of times

there's just more going on behind the scenes, I think. Yeah. On a small tangent on that,

just as a curious question, have you paid any attention to the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard

trials? I have watched quite a bit of it because my wife really loves it and she watches it in bed

at night. So it's raw. Like, to me, it's because you mentioned how complicated love can be. And

it's, I've never seen, I don't care about the celebrity nature of it. I don't care who it is,

but it's just laid out in such raw form. For the world to see it. For the world to see the

toxicity, but also the passion and the clearly sort of the drugs and the drinking, but also like

the longing and the dreams. And I will always be with you. I will die for you. The places,

the rollercoaster of love, and it's all there at the end, past the end. So it's like, I've also

recently reread The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich about Hitler, Nazi Germany. It's the rise

and the fall. And it's interesting to look at the entirety of that process after it's all over,

many, many decades after it's all over. That book in particular, written by the person that was

actually there. And so here we're seeing two people in the context of the courtroom analyzing

this rise and fall of a love affair. It's fascinating. You know, the truth is, I was

telling my wife this actually just the other day, because she was asking me when I thought about it.

It makes me really sad. It's humorous. Don't get me wrong. There's a lot of parts in it that are

just really funny. But I look at it and I also see the internet. Someone's always the villain

and someone's the hero, which is such a funny thing. And we talked a little about this offline

before we got on this. But I have a real firm belief in life that it's just more complex than

you think. Always, always. And Johnny, for instance, is very charismatic. And you love him

and he's funny in the way he does things and he looks certain ways and he says things.

He's just, you really love him. And I feel like, and maybe I'm wrong on this, but it looks like

the internet has really been like, Johnny is the winner. Amber is the villain. And I kind of look

at it. Yeah. And I kind of look at it and I feel like, were any of you in their bedroom? Were any

of you there for these things? And I'm not saying one way or the other. All I see when I look at

that is two people with a lot of deep seated hurt, anger. And that anger is so poisonous to both of

them. And they're getting through it in the way that they only know how. And I'm not saying we

shouldn't be able to look at parts of it and laugh about it and stuff and be virtuous or something.

But just that there's not a hero. It's more complicated. Yeah. I think unless you've been

living with Amber and Johnny, you don't know, just because one seems more charismatic in the

moment or funnier or more believable even, doesn't mean that their truth is the truth.

And I feel like there's still love there too, which makes, oh, that's the hardest part. He won't

even look at her. He looks down the whole time. And maybe people say, well, it's because it's

anger or, or hurt or whatever. But I, the way that she looks and stuff, it feels, it just feels

like there's so much hurt there that it hurts, it hurts me to watch it. I just feel like, oh,

my heart just like aches for them and, and for both of them. And I don't know either of them

personally. And, you know, I don't know, just hurts. But it's, I've never, I've never seen

sort of love laid out in this raw kind of way. It makes me feel better about, like, it almost

gives you, seeing people have gone through a struggle in this sort of mundane kind of way,

gives you room to struggle yourself about the messiness of love.

So true.

Like you're supposed to, like relationship is supposed to be simple and whatever. But this

like, oh man, this.

It's like art.

Yeah.

And for the record, like, I don't feel like it shouldn't be shown. Like, I think it's actually

really beautiful art. And I agree, there's going to be a lot of people who walk away from it and

are changed in certain ways or look at things different. I'm not saying it's changed in the

whole world, the Johnny Depp trial, but it's art. It's just like a, you would look at a painting

and it might affect you. My only commentary is more that there's not, I think it's silly when

people say who's right and who's wrong and who's the clear villain and who's the, like, we love

as humans, we have to have an answer for everything. We have to put everything in a box. And it's

like, well, we're looking at this and we're deciding you're right and you're wrong. And,

and I just think it's, it's silly unless it's your life. So speaking of heroes and villains and

highs and lows, you grew up in Las Vegas. And you said that Vegas is a performing town, a town of

high stakes, drama and eccentricity. It's a town of high highs and low lows. And I'll be damned

if my therapist didn't point out that correlation out to me personally a long time ago. So to me,

Vegas from the outside is romanticized by certain movies. The lows define the beauty of this town

and certain movies. So to me, Casino with Robert De Niro, Joe Pesci and Sharon Stone,

leaving Las Vegas with Nicolas Cage, if you're unloading Las Vegas with the

with the Chinese template, Hunter Stompson. First of all, what's your favorite

representation of Vegas from a darker side? And do you draw any wisdom insight from the

the darkness, the lows and the highs from in those movies? Or is it over romanticized?

So I grew up in a really conservative Mormon family. And Vegas was established by the Mormons and

the mob. Those were like the two very different worlds that created what Vegas is. And if you

live in Vegas, it really shows in a lot of ways because Vegas has the strip and the parties

and the craziness, but it also has very like neighborhoods and big families and

and conservative people and liberal people living together in a really interesting way.

And for me, growing up here, for instance, was a lot of like driving on the freeway,

my mom being like, children, close your eyes. There's a naked woman on that billboard and

everything. Okay, mom, on our way to church, you know what I mean? It was like, but also being like,

whoa, this is crazy. You know, taking in whatever I could when I could. So I saw and I'm grateful

for that. Like I really love that I didn't grow up as a Mormon in, for instance, like

Utah or something like the typical place, because I saw both sides and I appreciated

something from both sides. And now as a person now who's not religious, but just spiritually

minded, you know, I, I, I'm grateful for that divergent character, that juxtaposition, dual

edged sword that Vegas is. And I try to apply that to everything in life, which is like Johnny

Depp and Amber. It's like, there's two sides to every story. There's always two sides to every

coin. There's always, you know, and there's something to be said for both. Like I try to see

people and even if, you know, it's just, yeah, I try to apply that to life. As far as a movie

that personifies Vegas or something in that medium that personifies Vegas in a way that,

that resonates with me. Don't say hangover. No, no, yeah. I also like, I wasn't even allowed to

watch PG 13 movies growing up. So I, a lot of the movies that you're saying, like I, I didn't,

I either didn't see, I didn't have cable television. You know, I wasn't like a pilgrim,

but I had a really, really conservative upbringing. So it didn't define your intellectual, like

development. No, no, I just, I can't think of any movie that comes to mind where I'm like,

that's my Vegas movie. You know what I mean? Like I'm sure I've seen some of the movies you've said

now, but I don't, I can't think of one that I'm like, actually personifies Vegas in a way

that feels honest to me. Like, or, or, or, like, wasn't there a Chevy, was there a Chevy Chase?

Yeah, yeah. I think that's maybe the only one I thought of that came to mind where I was like,

because I love Chevy Chase so much that maybe it's one of his Vegas, Vegas vacation or something.

Yeah. So, but that's more like lighthearted surge, that kind of stuff.

Right. It's not like, I guess what I would say is there's no truth that has been, that I've seen

of Vegas because what I see of Vegas is there's obviously like the parties and stuff in the

nightlife, which I'm not a big party person. So I haven't really experienced much of that.

But I've also, there's also drugs and I've, I have a strange relationship with drugs. I've

lost a few friends to drug overdoses. And so I don't, that's not romantic to me. But there's also

like, yeah, I mean, you asked for a dark reflection of it. I guess I certainly see a dark reflection

to Vegas. And I don't, I feel like Vegas is typically personified. It's like, at the tables

and everything is this, but it's also like, I have like friends who've lost all their money

to gambling addiction. And so it's like, what I guess, somebody maybe needs to make,

maybe that's an open spot. There needs to be a dark side to Vegas. And it's about Mormons in Vegas

that's just a giant drug overdose or getting shot by the mob. Yeah. So you mentioned your

spirituality. You've, you said that having a crisis of faith or just the philosophical question

of asking who is God, does God exist? Or in thinking of the flip side of that, of mortality,

what happens when we die, those kinds of things were extremely difficult, deep things for you

in terms of your development, the whole process of figuring that out. Why does it hurt so much to

lose faith in God? Yeah, I would say that the seeking of God, let's say that, is an obsession

for me and has been since I was young. I really feel that I'm a deep, deeply committed to finding

answers in life. And there's some answers that I don't think there's an answer to. And I'm also

very OCD by nature. So I just don't give up to that. I'm like, well, there must be somewhere

in Tibet. There's some teacher or there's somebody out there that has the answer.

Or maybe it's yet to be found. I'm going to find it. I'm really, my life has been to date,

probably unhealthily committed to finding answers about God or the lack thereof and

mortality. It's all I sing about. It's all our records have been about.

Who do you think is God? Have you ever gotten a glimpse?

You know, I will say the closest I feel like I have been to experiencing God is,

and this sounds so, maybe, I don't know. I don't know how it sounds, but it's through

ayahuasca for me. That's my honest answer for you. I feel like I had pretty much given up all hope

of there being anything greater than us being evolving and being here and then dying and

you're gone and that's it. And from nothingness we came and nothingness we go.

Where I am now, which is there are answers to be found. I don't know them. I don't know what

God looks like or if God is anything to do with the word God in the way that we say it.

But I do believe pretty fervently that there is more to be found.

Is it motion sensor or no? I don't know what that was.

Looked like they have all died actually. Do you know which one of it? Is it this one right here?

Yeah. Why don't I just take it out but then we can do garb and just find the phone here.

Take it out.

Do you want to hold this chair? Let's see if I can get it like this.

Yeah. I'm almost there. I really don't know.

There's got to be like someone saying about this. There we go.

It's not Chinese problem. Yeah.

How many people does it take to? What is it on school?

A light bulb. A light bulb. It was hot too. It was like us doing like the two finger technique.

Yeah. I'm glad you survived that. Thanks.

That'd be pretty ironic if we're talking about mortality and then this would be it for you.

I've never done ayahuasca so it's a mixture of two plants. One of them is DMT but a lot of people

I really respect. Very, very intelligent people. I had profound experiences with ayahuasca.

What is that? Where do you go? Where does the mind go? What the heck is up with that?

I'll first say that I can't even smoke weed. I really do not enjoy it

because I hate to let go of control. If I feel out of control in life, it's one of my biggest

weaknesses. It's very scary for me. Some people really enjoy letting go in that way. I really don't.

I was pretty terrified to make the jump then to ayahuasca but my wife who I deeply respect

made a profound change through ayahuasca and I saw it.

She led the way.

Yeah. It wasn't a strange. I think we have a thing in America that's like a misconception,

a stigma on psychedelics where it's a drug and it makes some people crazy and then you're going

to be on the street and you're going to be out of your mind or you're going to become a crazy person

basically. I think I really bought into that notion because again, I wasn't even raised with

cable TV. Ayahuasca is very… You can imagine what that was like for a Mormon kid. I didn't

know anything about it and never touched drugs at all and never even touched a cigarette.

Anyway, so I think we have this misconception about it where Americans are quick to go to their

doctor and take any medication or drug but whoa when it comes to psychedelics.

Anyway, that being said, so I had that trepidation going into it but I really love and respect my

wife and I saw it make a profound impact in her life where she suddenly was able to heal from a

lot of trauma that she had. She went through a lot in her life and it really helped her heal

but it also set her in a new path spiritually that seemed really like a place that I wanted to be.

So I did it and I did it twice. The first time it didn't really have an effect on me which happens

to a lot of people I guess. I drank this little thing and there was this shaman who came over

from overseas that had been in the plant world for decades and was a really incredible…

I don't even know if he likes to be called shaman but…

So it's supposed to be like 30, 60 minutes to take effect and a few hours. The journey lasts…

About four hours.

Four hours.

Yeah, so the second time I took it I took it in I would say 20, 30 minutes in. Exactly. I started

to feel like I was the dimension of what is reality. The curtain was pulled open and there was

a lot more to discover and it really blew my mind in a way that I think it would probably blow

anybody's mind if, for instance, God descended or some Christian God or whatever it is. We all

think it'd be this beautiful thing but in reality it would probably make people super fearful and

think that they've lost their mind. I've always joked that if the Mormon God came down and told

my mom, like, if God himself came down and told my mom, Mormonism is incorrect, she would say, Satan!

I think our minds are just not prepared for a lot of anything that's really extreme and it was

very extreme. It was like the curtain of life was cut open which scared me but then I felt

very much and a lot of people that I've talked to have a similar thing where I felt very much

like I was either communicating with something that was perceived as God to me or highest sense of

self or mind or Mother Earth or, you know, it's called so many different names but it's really,

it's very, a lot of people have a very spiritual, similar experience with ayahuasca and just in

that it's like this kind of profoundness. It wasn't like, there was nothing at least for me that was,

that felt like just like psychedelic funny cartoons or something. It was like, I'm about to go on a

journey and it's, and I'm gonna communicate, I'm communicating with something that feels incredibly

wise, showed me a lot of things in my life, kind of almost like from a bird's eye, almost like I was

looking through a video camera at a younger me. There was a particular thing that it communicated

to me. I really have a hard time with accepting success and not feeling like feeling undeserving

or something. I can't quite put it into words but of my position and what I've been given,

I've been given so much. And it showed me this thing from when I was young and explained to me

why I am, where I am now. And to this day, it did not feel like myself telling myself that.

That's the only way I can explain it. And there was a lot more that it showed me and

that was incredibly healing for me. But just to be like, to put it into a short thing because

there's so much to this, it felt, I walked away feeling very convinced that there is more to be

known for sure. And a lot of my deep things that were traumatic for me didn't feel traumatic anymore,

specifically crisis of faith. I was very angry at my parents and my community for raising me

in what I perceived to be falsehoods. And that, I felt like the bedrock of everything I believed

was ripped out for me in my 20s. And then it was like, good luck in life. But really,

my parents had given me everything that they could. And they believed that very much so still.

But a naive young me was angry and felt like they had been duped and thus I had been duped.

But ayahuasca really showed me this roadmap of like, this is truth and you're concerning yourself

about a grain of sand, which is Mormonism or whatever it is. And there may be some truth in

that tiny grain of sand. And there may be falsities. But so is all these other grains of sand,

like focus on the truth. Stop focusing on these little details that are meaningless and forgive

and let go of people believing in those things to begin with. I don't know if that makes sense,

but that was like the core thing I was taught and to let go of control. Stop needing to control

everything. And it felt like the wisdom was coming from elsewhere. Like it's really, I

do not believe, at least in my current self, I don't have that, the mindfulness that I believe

that exists in me to reach a lot of the conclusions that I did. And there was a lot more to it

that would be for like a late night conversation with you. But it's so hard to put it into,

you feel like a crazy person. At least at any time I talk about ayahuasca to someone who hasn't

done it, I'm like, I don't even know where to begin. Like, how do you explain to someone that

you felt like that a multiple dimension type thing happened in a way that, like putting

it into words is, and none of it was words, by the way, that was communicated to me. It was like,

you know how people talk about telepathy? And if it existed, it would be like,

I could communicate to you in such a deeper way. I'm so confined by me having to articulate these

words and put them in a sentence to you, Lex. And then tell you, like, if only I could just be like,

yeah, and emotions do that sometimes, right? You could see my emotions and be like,

oh, that communicates a lot. So that's what it felt like to me with ayahuasca is it felt like

it was communicating to me very clear things. But it wasn't like, Daniel, it's me, Mother Earth.

Let me relax, sit back, let me show you. But it was very clear to me what was being said.

And no, it did not feel like me. But maybe science, smarter people than me who've done it,

would say, well, it was you and blah, blah, blah. I don't know. But it was very convincing.

There's a lot of stuff in that subconscious that we haven't explored. Like, we haven't

explored the depths of the ocean. We haven't really figured out what's that the younging

shadow, what's going on underneath the surface of our conscious mind. And what is that connecting

to? Is that is that just inside our mind? Or is it some kind of, is there some kind of collective

intelligence going on where all humans are connected to one kind of greater organism?

Like, what is consciousness? We have a lot of hubris and thinking we understand any of it,

like how the mind works at all. Like, what is it? Like, where, what is the origin of consciousness?

What is the origin of intelligence? There's a lot of hubris about this. We would give each other

PhDs and Nobel Prizes and congratulate ourselves as if we figured it all out.

But humility is helpful here. Nevertheless, that is the question that humans have been asking for.

Ever since humans were humans, which is the question of mortality, the question of God.

So whether it's Hamlet to be or not to be, I think that's the hardest, the most important

question. Albert Camus asked, why live? So in terms of crisis of faith, in terms of your search

for truth, in terms of some of the dark places you've gone in your mind, what's the good answer

to this question? So for Camus with mythosisyphus, it was the question of suicide. What's the purpose?

Like, what's a good answer to why I keep going, especially when you're struggling, especially

when you're not, when you're feeling hopeless, when you're feeling like a burden

in this search for truth, when you feel like you're surrounded by lies, what's the good answer to why

I live? You ever found one? Well, the simple answer right now is to say for, it's very easy once you

have kids to say, the right answer is you just, of course, you brought these kids into the world,

so you have a responsibility that I feel deeply as a father to them to always be there for as

long as I humanly can, and to take care of them and protect them. It's the most innate sense in

me. It's wired in my animal existence. So if I take that away, because that's kind of cheating.

Let's put that aside, because it is cheating. It's cheating.

You're still, there's still some fundamental way in which you're alone.

Yeah. And to that, that actually has been a real struggle for me for many years. I had a

real turning point early in my career, where we were flying somewhere overseas, and we're in a

really small plane, and the lights went out, and all these red lights were flashing, and the plane

just started to dive. Completely scariest plane experience I've ever been in. My manager was

next to me, who's my brother. He was crying and texting his wife a goodbye. That's how crazy this

moment was. Was it genuine? Genuine engine went out, plane is going down, pilots looking crazy

in the front, and it was a really tiny jet. And like I said, my brother next to me crying, typing

a text to his wife. Really, really scary. And I felt nothing. I genuinely sat there and I was like,

this might actually be nice. I really felt like this goes down, and like,

man, life sucks and it's hard. And that sounds so ridiculous, I know to say, because again,

I'm in a different place now, and I see my life for what it is. But at that moment, I did not.

So life was primarily defined by suffering. It was a burden. And this is what I felt.

I was incredibly depressed. I had been trying different medications since I was

young, and I just had not found anything that was working for me. And then I was in a faith crisis,

lost all my faith, started a band that just became, I wasn't ever thinking that this band. I was like,

when you call your band Imagine Dragons, you're not thinking that band's gonna be big, okay?

It was like, this was like a side project that was fun for me. It was like art in college.

I was in school, and I was like, man, I hate this biology class. I'm gonna write down band names.

Like, you know what I mean? Like, it was not, hey, put everything aside. This is my career.

Let's go. Like, it just, it happened. And I'm an introvert by nature. I'm really not an

extroverted person who likes to go out and like, I like to be at home with a couple friends and

have a late night conversation over good food. Like that to me is a perfect night.

Read a good book. Listen to a podcast. Go on a walk. You know, those are things that I really,

really enjoy. And suddenly I'm in this life where I'm like supposed to be something that I really

don't want to be, except for on stage, which is a really fast and like strange thing to me, which

is on stage, I feel so free and exuberant and like an extrovert. And then I come off and I just feel

like shrivel back into a show. Like it's a, it's, music does that for me and performing on a stage

does that for me. Can we take a small tangent on that? Yeah, yeah, of course. What's the high,

can we go through that, the introvert that wants to cuddle up and read a book? You're the frontman

of one of the, if not the biggest rock bands today, playing in front of huge crowds.

What's the high of that? And how can you land back on earth?

The high of it is, it's incredibly beautiful to walk on a stage, sing these songs that you wrote

and see it resonate with people around you and sing with them. Different cultures, different places

celebrate life. It suddenly, the world seems like a fantastic place. It feels like we're all on the

same team. It's like one big hug. Yeah, it's like everybody in that room gets it and they all,

like it just, it feels like what you want the world to be, which is just like this coexisting

unit of people. And it's not even about like, you know, I just, it's incredible. It's for sure,

it's incredible. And I love it. And I wouldn't do it unless I loved it. And then you walk off stage

and you turn on the news and it's like, you see, you know, we're all against each other,

everybody hates each other. And it feels that way in the world. So music really,

that's why live music is so important to people. That's why music is so important to people.

Because even if it's just you and that person that wrote the song, you're listening to it. And

the two of you feel connected. You know, it's like, you're hearing Tracy Chapman sing like

fast car or something. You're just like, oh my gosh, like, yes, I get it. And you feel connected

that person, you don't feel alone. Like, so that's the high of it, for sure. And then you get off

stage and then, you know, as my, like my uncle is a heart surgeon, incredible heart surgeon who

like writes the book, like he's like the guy that the heart surgeons talk to, he's out of Nashville

Tennessee. He's just incredible, genius man. He always worries and always reached out to me. He's

like, musicians die all the time. The reason they die, you know, is because you're getting on stage

and your heart's doing this and your cortisol levels are doing this, you're getting off stage

and then you're just doing this. And it's a really real thing. Like you get off stage and you feel

like you need drugs because you're like, I, the world feels like, oh, incredibly daunting. And

it's also, I'm sure, has to do with like some, some like health things in your heart and the

cortisol levels that are so crazy. And then you come off and it's like, I know people are like,

well, then nothing's enough except meth. Yeah. Nothing's enough except heroin. And that's why

a lot of artists turn to that stuff. And I don't say it in a preach, I don't say it in a preachy

way. Like I've struggled with drug abuse in my life. And I really, I understand why artists turn

to it. But also the fact that you're introvert. So the other side of it, the fame, that's something

that you also said is a double S sword for you. The interesting thing about fame is that you also

mentioned, is it something you can't take back? Yeah. So it's a thing you can't just like go on

vacation in Hawaii and it's like, consider, do I like it or not? No, you're staying in Hawaii for

the rest of your life. And you've never been there before, whether you like it or not. So

what's that like, being, you know, loved by millions and millions and millions of people,

which is perhaps the best kind of fame in terms of if you had to choose the kinds of

fames there are and still being an introvert and all that kind of stuff. So what, do you feel alone,

more alone being famous? Is there a loneliness? Yeah, I mean, it's such a funny thing because

for, okay, if you had asked, if we were having this conversation a couple years ago, I'd be

incredibly guarded about this because the last thing I want to ever do is sound ungrateful

or unaware of how much I have. And woe is the famous celebrity with money. Oh, is your life

hard? Is it really telling me about how hard it is? But I'm also at a place in life now where I

just like, I'm not always just speak my truth because that's the only reason I'm here is I'm

here to speak my truth to you. So I'm going to tell you my truth, whether it's whatever it is.

But you're human and feelings are real. And so that's the interesting thing, you win a lottery.

What's that going to feel like? It's not about complaining, oh, it's so hard to win a lottery

because you get a lot of money. No, it's still, you're human. You get to experience these feelings

and it's fascinating. You put humans in different situations. Right. And it's also fascinating

because a lot of people think, well, I would like to be famous. That's a big thing now on social

media and Instagram. So the world wants to be famous or rich or famous. And then it's very

interesting to think, all right, well, once you arrive, are all the problems solved?

No, yeah. So I will tell you, according to me, what the pitfalls are,

whether it's pure or not. And there are certainly some pitfalls. Once you're there, you can't go

back. Whatever. Maybe that's fine because maybe you love it. But the real pitfall for me is that

you're now, you're Lex and you're what everybody's perception is that Lex is. And that's what you are.

Now, Lex is probably a lot more complex and complicated and has a lot more to Lex

than the Lex that is the celebrity. So, but anybody who meets you, that's who you are to them.

And you may, you may not feel this way, but you may feel confined to actually have to be that person

to that person. Like I've, early in my career, for a long time, anytime I met someone, I suddenly

felt like I had to be Dan Reynolds from Imagine Dragons anytime I met someone, including my family

now who are also like, whoa, this is crazy. You're like, Dan Reynolds from Imagine Dragons.

And I wanted to just be the goofball that I've been my whole life with my brothers and family,

but suddenly I found myself feeling like, no, I have to be this, like, because that's who,

that's who this is. So you're almost like playing a role. And it's like, I've heard a lot of actors

talk about this, well, they'll take on a role and then it's like, they feel like they have to,

they like become that. And it's a really scary thing. Like you alter who you are almost

to fit the notion of other people, because especially if a lot of artists are empaths,

it, you know, a lot of people get into art in a deep way or empaths. And so you feel a lot of

what people are feeling. And you're never wanting to burden people. And you're always wanting to

deliver to that person, you know, what they want is like, people pleasing is very, it goes hand

in hand with a lot of like, these famous people and they get to where they were because they know

how to do that. They know how to be in a room with someone and look them in the eye and make them

feel like they're the only person in the room. And then now they got that role in that movie,

because they sat with the casting director and they were like, oh, so funny. Oh, has anybody

to like put on the charisma, do it all. And it's like, anyway, I'm like, I'm going on a different

tangent here. But long story short, there's a lot of things that are really unhealthy about it.

And then a lot of people who want the fame, then the second it starts to go away, then they're like,

who am I anymore? Like, that was everything. And now I'm like on the down. And now I'm not a

famous person anymore. And now I hate myself. Now I'm going to do drugs. And it's like,

it's like this vicious cycle, like you could never be famous enough. You're always going to get

like, there's just so much to it that I've just and I and again, like, I've lost friends in this

career to do that, for sure. And there's a certain element to sort of just on the losing fame. I've

interacted with a lot of folks, especially young folks like on YouTube. So fame is a thing that

has levels. You're always trying to be a little more famous. A lot of folks were chasing fame.

It doesn't matter how famous you are, you're always trying to chase more. And when you start to lose

it, interesting things can happen if you're not self aware, which is like, like you mentioned,

you might be trying to grasp back at where you were by leaning into the formula that got you

there. And so the constraints of the image that you mentioned becomes the thing that you're now

trying to lean into, like, and that that's actually walking away from who you really are,

like you lean further into being that person, that's true for acting, that's true for

even on like YouTube, which is people acting, they have a role that got them to the table

somehow. Yeah, it's, it's dark. But I think those are, that's just put for everybody to see.

But that's a very human struggle, even when you're not famous, finding yourself or being yourself

of not letting, not doing the people pleasing at any scale, and being trapped by that.

Yeah. And also feeling like it's never enough. I think that's something all like,

it's not, it's not just the famous thing, but it's like in the whole, like everybody deals

with feeling like, when I'm here, I'll be happy. Yeah. When I get that job, I'll be happy. When

I have that money, then I'll be happy. When my, when I get that surgery and my nose looks like

this, I will be happy then. It's like a constant chase of happiness instead of happiness. It's

like the opposite. It's opposite of self love. It's the opposite of happiness. There's no

presence to it. You're constant. You're never going to find it. You're never going to arrive

and you're just going to live your life and then you're going to be on your death bed and be like,

I was chasing the wrong thing my whole life. I should say that podcasts are interesting in

that way. So for me personally, because you just talk a lot, you can't, people that meet you,

they know you and they know the evolution of you. And that's the same thing for like you right now,

Dan of Imagine Dragons, just being on a podcast, like long form reveals the side

that liberates you more to be yourself. People see it, oh, there's a human. Because they,

you know, music, they have a deep connection with you. They have experiences with you the

way they experienced it. And that's who you are with them through the songs. But now you get to

see, oh, that's a human being. He probably gets angry. He gets sad. He's excited. He's hopeful.

And there's a core, there's a good human being with the whole roller coaster of emotions all

there. It's a giant, beautiful mess. And podcasts reveal it. That's why I love podcasts, like long

form. You get to hear some artists and actors and so on. And some of them you get to see, oh, you've

lost yourself in the, in the surface. That's the tragedy with some actors, some great actors.

They've, they've, they've left so much of themselves in the roles they've played,

that they can no longer be the thing they were before those great roles. That's for sure.

That's, it's hard. It's hard to see. So you get to see that with Johnny Depp with, I don't know,

Pirates. He was talking about that with Pirates of the Caribbean. That was a shift. Right. Like,

he's not that guy. Right. He's forever, forever, forever that guy. But the point is to remember

that you're not into your family, which is interesting. You said with your family, when I

see people close to me, they also, there is an element like that while you're that they start

treating you like the famous person. Yeah. You know, I, I'm fortunate to have my manager,

who's my brother, my older brother, and my lawyer is my other older brother. And that's been helpful

because like, it's weird. It gets weird with everyone, no matter what. One of the best advice

I was given was by Charlie Sheen. You got advice from Charlie Sheen. Yeah. We were playing

The Wise Sage of Our Generation. The Wise Sage. It was. It was really wise. I was sitting next

to him and we were, we were playing some late night television and he said, this was right at

the beginning. And he just said, boys, just mark my words. Your life is about to get really weird.

That's all I said. But it stuck with me forever. And it's Charlie Sheen. So of course it sticks

with you. And I remember being like, right. Okay, Charlie Sheen. I'm not Charlie Sheen. It's not

going to get weird like, you know, but it got really, really weird, really quick because suddenly

you've existed your whole life in this way where everybody just, everything you get,

you achieved, it was because you got it. And every conversation you had, like, if someone liked you

at the end of that conversation, it was because they liked you. If they didn't like you, it's

because they didn't like you. And you can make complete peace with that. At least I could my

whole life. I was like, life is a challenge. And be myself. And I'm going to go through it and

find some people along the way that I connect with and others know. And that social integrity

is so important to us. And we think it would be nice to have this. And this is going back to the

pitfalls of it. We think it would be nice to walk into a room and have everyone be like,

and you could be like, dumpster fire. And everybody's like, Oh my gosh, dumpster fire.

That was amazing. How you said dumpster fire was amazing. It's like, it's incredibly,

incredibly lonely. And it just breaks everything that you knew about humaneness. And it sucks.

So then you're seeking out people who that it doesn't exist with and families the closest you

can get to that for sure. But even your families, it's going to take a little bit where they're

like, Oh, this is a little weird, like all my friends at work are now asking about you. And

you're my young stupid brother. But now you're suddenly like the young stupid brother they want

an autograph from and stuff. And it still makes like they have to get over that and figure that

out. And then you meet people too who know about this whole concept. And they're like,

well, I'm going to be an asshole to him to show him that I don't subscribe. And you're dealing

with like people who are like dumpster fire and the person who's like, you know, you could say

something actually profound and nice. And they'd be like, that's stupid and you're an idiot.

Because it's like an actual attempt to like show you how much they don't care. So you live in

this very like this still nevertheless, even when nobody knew you, you were seeking for deep

human connection with a small number of people. And now when a lot of people know you, you're

still looking for deep connection with a small number of people, the struggle is the same.

Can you can you speak to because you mentioned some of the dark moments. What advice did you

give to people who are struggling with depression? And maybe for the people who love

the people who are struggling with depression. So what I have found to be most successful for me,

it's it's back to the basics of everything that the therapist or psychologist will tell you,

psychiatrist will tell you right when you meet them, which is exercise every day,

eat healthy, for sure, find time, make time every day to do something that you love,

whatever that may be, whatever brings you joy. And you might, and when you're really depressed,

that actually feels like nothing. Because the things that brought you joy,

don't bring you joy anymore, when I'm really in the thick of it. But for me, like this is the

cycle that I'll go through is I'll look at my life and I'll say, okay, what, what, what can

I clean up? All right, well, for me, it was cutting out alcohol actually helped me a lot.

I know that sounds like big, I'm not like, I'm not judging anybody for that. And I still,

you know, drink on occasion, but I have felt like alcohol has been very unhelpful to my mental

state. Feel less drive and less happiness the next day for things that I want to do. I feel

like it plays a lot with your serotonin. So look for stuff to change. Clean living, yeah.

Clean living, but also understanding that, that sometimes it's just, it just is. And you just

keep breathing. And, and it will get better with time. This too shall pass. And I really think

that in the winter, you know, I'm pretty sure, I mean, I've had a lot of, I've seen a lot of

therapists and all of them say the same thing, which is like, you have major depressive disorder,

and this is what it is, but it's certainly worse for me in the winter months. So I know there's

like, I can't think of the term for it, but there's a term for like seasonal depression,

there it is. So I'll get to the winter and suddenly I'm like, geez, everything really

sucks on a deeper level. And then, you know, so it's like this too shall pass is another thing.

It's like, just practice those things, absolutely see a therapist. That's my biggest,

like my biggest emphasis of life is to like on stage, like my goal, like I have a few things

that I really, really care about. One is, is mental health, health and de stigmatizing therapy.

Because for me, I didn't go to therapy for a long time because I felt that it would be admitting

that I was broken. It'd be admitting that I was weaker than Lex, who doesn't have to go to a

therapist because Lex is stronger. So be strong like Lex. You know, I would like look at all my

older brothers and I looked up to them so much. And they were all these incredibly successful

people. Plastic surgeon, anesthesiologist, a dentist, two attorneys, Stanford, NYU, like just

like incredible high standards, Eagle scouts, you know, like they, Val Victorians, like they just

did it all. So for me, I was very, really did not want to admit and none of them went to therapy.

So it was like, what are you going to be? Are you, are you broken? Are you like the weak one who

can't hack life? And I think that's incredibly dangerous. And I feel like it almost cost me my

life because I took so long to finally go to therapy. So I really want kids to know, hey,

like the great people that achieve great things that are doing amazing things,

they probably have help, almost all of them.

It's like going to the gym, but it's a mental gym. What, so I, unfortunately, I want to be

a psychiatrist when I was growing up. Maybe, maybe that's why I like podcasts. Maybe that's,

I think you'd be a good one. Maybe I would, I would, I think you are a psychiatrist.

Pretty much. Sounds like you're a psychiatrist. I think I need more. I think, I think actually,

to be a psychiatrist, you'd also need to be seeking therapy from like, you also need to be,

have some stuff to work through in your mind. I think, yeah, you have to have gone to some dark

places. Empathize. The, the empathy, the ability to empathize, and especially if you've directly

experienced that you can, you can go to those places in your mind. Like you said, it's with

music to be authentic. You have to really go there. What, why did therapy help so much?

What is the process of therapy? If you can just educate a little more, is it, are you basically

bringing to the surface and talking through things that you, because of the, the momentum of life,

you just never allow yourself to speak through, to think through? Is that what therapy is?

Or is there some more systematic thing? So I've been to a lot of strange different kinds of

therapy. So I'll tell you my first therapist. If I could interrupt, how hard is it to find

a therapist that connected with you? It is, it's actually pretty hard, I think. I think,

I think it for, well, actually, I have a skewed view of that because

going back to the beginning of my therapy was with a Mormon therapist. So it was very much like,

well, are you reading your book of Mormon? And are you praying at night? You know what I mean?

Like that was a big focus of my therapy to begin with. And you're having a faith crisis in the

distance somewhere. Yes. Well, and then. You're making it worse. Yes. The next therapist I went to

was a Scientology therapist. I met my wife and she was Scientologist at the time and she's not

anymore. She's like, it's such a funny thing to like, to look back on because we met. And I was

like this Mormon missionary who had just got home from his mission and I met her and I was,

she's Scientologist. I was like, wow, that's bad shit crazy. Like, and like that stuff's crazy.

And she's like, what are you talking about? That's your crazy Mormon. That's bad shit crazy.

And the two of us were like, huh, maybe there's something to this to both of us here. Yeah,

the tension actually forces you to think through like, well, what is true? Yeah. And we really

fell in love through that, which was like, maybe we're both on the wrong track. Let's figure this

out. But before that happened, we went to a Scientologist therapist who that therapy consisted

of what have you done wrong to Asia? And they asked, they would ask me that question over and over

and over and over and tell them like thinking of the deepest, darkest things that were in the

recesses of my mind. This was a therapy. This was marriage therapy. Anyway, I'm not gonna get into

that, but it was Scientology therapy. So that was a different thing. And then I went to therapy

therapy, like, no, it's not attached to any religion. And that was a really great experience

for me. And since then, I've been through a couple different therapists, but that was more because

where I was and moving and things like that. So is it that hard to find a great therapist?

Probably not. But maybe don't go to your Mormon therapist person, Scientology therapist.

Or maybe that's, maybe that's the route for you. Maybe it's the route for you. I don't know.

Yeah. But what is, so is it bringing stuff to the surface, basically?

Oh, yeah. So I didn't even answer your question.

What's the effect? Why is it so effective? Just, is there something you could put words to?

Yeah. I mean, I think it's obviously there's the common things you would think of, which is like,

oh, I've been holding these things in and I don't want to tell anybody and then I tell this person

and oh, there's relief in that. But that's really not where the real work comes from. I think the

real work is meeting with someone who is well versed and educated and understands. It's like,

it's like coding. It really is. It's like someone who like, they listen to you and they're like,

well, that was a trigger. And then this became this trigger. And you're probably every time

you're hearing that thinking of this thing that happened earlier in your life. And they just will

walk you through scenarios and maybe some of them aren't right. But some of them you'll be like,

it'll resonate. Sometimes you're like, wow, I am feeling that because of that. And that did happen.

And maybe if I call my mom and say this to her, it will make me feel better. Hey, mom,

this happened. It's like work. You put in work and you have hard conversations and do difficult

things. And so if your therapy is not difficult, I actually think that's not good therapy. Good

therapy is it's going to be a little difficult. It's work. During and after. Yes. I had this

incredible therapist who was who I told him when I was going to do ayahuasca. He was like,

Jesus, you know, he had actually was a doctor before and a really well educated,

studied person who had walked away from brain doctor. What's the word for that? Brain doctor.

Brain surgeon. Neurologist. Neurologist. And he said, well,

basically his belief was that ayahuasca was like basically doing therapy like 50 sessions. He was

like, it's like really intensive. He was like, I don't know if you want to do that. If you do,

you can make some big steps forward. But I prefer just to do one session at a time.

And so yeah, it's hard work. And I typically like, it's really hard for me to talk about

ayahuasca by the way, going back to that because I'm not looking to tell everybody to go do

ayahuasca. It's incredibly hard. It was the scariest experience of my entire life. It felt

like I went to heaven, but it also felt like I went to the darkest, deepest hell that was

incredibly scary. Incredibly scary. Yeah.

He told the story of how you wrote the song, Believer, or like your childhood friend,

I guess, Donald, like bullying and that kind of stuff. This song, a lot of your songs are

super interesting. There's a percussion super interesting, super interesting lyrically,

just how it flows. And also pain is at the center of it. I mean, a lot of, like you said,

the crisis of faith, some of these existential questions are basically behind a lot of your

songs, funny enough. Maybe they're covered in metaphor, so it's hard to see, but it's there.

And this song is really interesting in that way that it puts pain, you made me a believer.

You break me down, you build me up, believer. That's so interesting. Maybe can you tell the

story of how the song came to be? I'd love to listen to it too. I have some questions

musically about it too. Yeah. I mean, it's exactly what we're talking about with therapy. I just

feel like the greatest things in my life have come from the deepest hurt. Losing someone

that you love is maybe the hardest part of the human path for me, at least thus far.

Like when I think of, okay, what was the hardest thing? There's like, you know,

there's like, you think of physical pain or maybe like going through financial pain or whatever.

I think losing someone that you really love to death is one of the hardest. For me,

I would say it was the hardest. But it also makes you look at your life completely differently

and alter your life, at least for me, in ways that were really healthy.

Being more present, letting go of things that were meaningless, trying to control what other

people think about you, like wasting your time on things like that. And you suddenly see like,

wow, like time, I got a small amount of time, like, how do I want to spend it? I'm going to

spend it in the best way I know how. And that's it. So yeah, I mean, that's, it's a basic concept

that's been said a million times over in a million different ways. But that's pretty much what I was

trying to say with believer, which is like, I've lost faith in faith and everything at that time

period. And, you know, or previous to that time period. And then I was rebuilding my faith or

my spiritual thought process. And it was after I was skin, it was like, you know, finding being a

believer. And that, and that's not necessarily like a believer in God or a believer in heaven and

hell or anything like that, but a believer in more believing in goodness, believing in that there is

some light, like, and again, those words, like, they're just words. And I wish there were better

words to formulate the thought that I'm trying to express, but just more, like the thought of

me dying for me, I don't fear it. I don't fear it. But actually, I really fear not seeing my

kids again. I'll say that that is fearful for me. I feel like I love so deeply these children that

the thought of like, leaving them for me is a scary thought or something.

They're kind of good reminder how much you love life, actually. Yeah. And you don't always remember

that. Yeah. And I think having kids is not for everyone for absolutely for sure. But for me,

and especially you shouldn't be having kids to give yourself a reason to live. I mean, like,

I feel like dying. I'm going to have a kid. You might feel more like dying after having a kid,

actually. You know, it's pretty stressful. But it is a place to like, I've changed a lot of people

that I've known that it gave them a new intensity of gratitude for life, for sure. God, do you mind

if we, I'll return to the pain of the believer, you mind if we listen to a little bit of the songs?

Okay. Did you write the music first or the words first?

It's same time, which is very typical for me.

By the way, just the way it opens, the intensity of openings. You ever think about like, what the

first few seconds sound like? Is that something that like, when you imagine a song, is it the

opening you imagine? No, it's kind of a, it's just a, I never think opening. I never think

final. I think soundscape of how I'm feeling right now. So it could be the middle of the song for

all I know when I'm, you know, when I'm doing that. But my process for me is very much lyrics

and melody and music really come at the same time. Like I, by the same time, I mean, I'm,

I'm, I'm a, as I'm expressing maybe, you know, I'm feeling like

like it's not that simple, but it's like, I'll, I'll hear it. Like it's like,

here's all the orchestra and you're kind of just pressing all the buttons at once. And melody in

my voice is just one of those instruments. You know what I mean? It's just utilizing one instrument.

So you've seen the landscape. And that landscape includes melody, includes percussion, lyrics a

little bit or lyrics. I will be words to begin with, like a word here and there. Like I'll be like

you know, I'm like, what's a word that I'm thinking of when I'm feeling this soundscape? And I always

create with no theme in mind. I'm never, for better or for worse, just my process is I'm sitting down

and I'm writing a journal entry. Simple as that. It's like, when you sit down and write a journal

entry, are you sitting down and you're like, Kev, I've had all these words here that I'm going

to put on the page and I'm going to order it in this way. And my theme for my journal entry today

is going to be this, maybe some people do, but I don't, my journal entry is, I don't know what I'm

going to say. Oh, how was today? Well, man, today was this and feeling this. And now that I think

about that, I'm really angry about that. That hurt my feelings when this, you know, you're like,

you're like, you're formulating it as you go. And that's the joy of it. And for me, that's what

music is. So I'll sit down, not thinking, Hey, I've been wanting to write a song that has a hard beat,

or I've been wanting to write a song that's anthemic, or I've been wanting to write a song that's,

it's like, how am I feeling right now? And is joyful with the, is the feeling joyful to you?

Or is it struggle? You just made it sound like it's, I think, or at least fulfilling. Yeah,

fulfilling is what I was kind of looking for. But there was a lot of artists talk about really

talk about writers, cathartic. That's what I was like. It feels like having a good moment with a

therapist where you're like, okay, I'm expressing this thing that I just need to express for whatever

reason, I need to express this. The majority of the songs I write for the record are never heard.

I write over 100 songs a year, I release 20 songs every three years. So I don't know what's that

percent 20 out of 300. Come on, Lex. It's less than 10% less than 10% 8, 7 or something. Yeah.

Anyway, so it's and then like getting together with the band and like getting them selected down

is really what the process is. So you're really writing a song per one to three days, kind of

maybe a song that you can't quite figure out the puzzle of that's going to last a little longer.

Where's this struggle? Every idea. Yeah. You finish every idea. I do. I finish every idea.

So it's not just like laying completely unfinished. I could open my computer for you right now and I

would show you hundreds and hundreds of songs that you would listen to and think that sounds

like a song. It's like there's rhythm, there's melody, there's multiple instruments, there's lyrics.

It's the same thing is for coding for me, which is music, which is I can't walk away until I've

completed it. But it's finished. Well, finished is it? Yeah, but it sounds like a song. I certainly

do a lot more with it after with the band where we pulled all apart, but it's a song. It'll be like,

you'll listen to it and say, okay, that was a song. You understand what it is for sure.

Do you think this is a painful question from a fan perspective? Do you think there's genius

on your computer that you walked away from that you just didn't notice it? Do you think there's

truly great songs that you've written that you just didn't notice how great they are?

I think greatness is something that I feel I'm, I don't feel like I've achieved greatness,

genuine. I'm not saying that to you in a way of like humility.

No, genuinely, I feel like I am on a journey right now to find who I am. And I'm 34 and it's like,

I don't even, I haven't begun that journey. I feel like I'm just starting that.

But that being said, I certainly don't know the right answer to what songs are,

beloved or good to the masses. Imagine Dragons is such a massive entity. It's like,

there have been, I will say this, there are a couple of times where I fought really hard

to decide on the single, really hard. Or I always fight for what goes on the record,

always. I always put the record together and that's the record that I wanted to be

and me and the guys come up with that. And it's nobody else has influence, no manager, no label.

The single, everybody wants to have a say in your label wants to have a say in it,

your manager wants to have a say in it. And I have fought really hard over that. And I've

been wrong before and I've been right before. But as far as songs that I haven't put out,

I mean, you can imagine so many songs, you think, you think of so many Beatles songs

that are like some of their grace while my guitar gently weeps. Let me, I'm trying to imagine

weird sounding, not that interesting, possibly songs. The majority of what we put them,

honestly, they may, it may be our best stuff is that we don't put out, for instance, because our

band is such a, it's such a complex question. I really don't know, actually, I don't know,

maybe one day I'll die and people will look and be like, I hated Imagine Dragons, but now,

listen, that's not, I really liked that, which they would put that out. Or maybe they'll be like,

oh, it's all sounds like shit. I don't really know.

Sorry, it is a tragic thing. That's why I asked it, which is like,

there could be some great, incredible things that will take you a long time to rediscover,

to realize how great they are. And it's also the tragic aspect of being an artist is you don't know,

if you get fame or all that kind of stuff, you don't know what's going to really move people,

because ultimately what you want is to, to connect with people and you don't know what that's going

to be. It's hard. I mean, to me, it's, to me, it's tragic, just as a fan of yours to see,

maybe I wonder if there's like, incredible stuff there, just as it is tragic to see great artists

throughout history who didn't get recognition until they died. It's like, because they basically

held on, you know, France, Kafka was extremely self critical. A lot of these folks had an idea

of what's good and not, and they were wrong. They had genius. They weren't entirely wrong,

because they became sufficiently popular, but it's interesting.

I try to genuinely to release the songs that move me the most.

Got it. I'll say that.

You're your own audience.

Yeah. I try to put out the songs that make me feel the most. I feel that. That's my only gauge,

because it's so subjective of like, what is good? What's this? Nobody knows the song that the masses

are going to like. Nobody knows that formula. Nobody knows it. So for me, it's always what makes

me feel something. One of the main lessons Rick Rubin taught me when we worked with him on this

record was he would say, his main point that he would continually bring up went like,

because he's not the type of person to be like, that's a bad song or that's good. It's just not

who Rick Rubin is. It's more like, there's more nuance to it. He would say, I don't really believe

you on that song. That's what he would say. He would say, and I knew that was like,

that song's a no go. He would say, and I would genuinely, there was a time he said it, and it

was about a song that I really felt it and meant it when I said it, but he didn't believe it when

he heard it. And I was like, man, well, at the end of the day, I can believe it all I want,

but if the listener doesn't feel the honesty in it, just like we were talking about earlier,

I think the most important ingredient is this truth, perceived as truth to someone else. And

if it's not, the bullshit indicator goes, and you're like, I don't care. I don't throw it away.

I don't care about it. Well, you said that he made you go through line by line, the lyrics.

Every song. That was excruciating for me. Why was that excruciating? Well, first of all,

it's Rick Rubin. So you're in the room with like Rick Rubin, who's done a lot of the greatest

of all time. And so I had to first just put that aside and be like, okay, well,

you've done a lot of my favorite records, but still you're human and not everything you say

is going to be right. And I'm a strongly opinionated person, and so is Rick. And so when the two of

us were sitting down in a room together, it was, you know. But the lyrics, which is interesting.

So not the entire composition, but just like, let's look at the lyrics. What do I mean here?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Cause he would look over every, there was like, and there was, there were battles

he won battles that, that, that he didn't win. And maybe he was right. I don't know. I mean,

there was, for instance, I'll give you an example. There was a song on the record called number one.

Okay. Rick will probably laugh when he hears this. Cause this was a big one that we kept going back

and forth on, but this will give you a good insight of what it's, what it was like, what it was like.

And there's a line in it that says, um, I don't know. The chorus is, I don't know what I'm meant

to be. I don't need no one to believe when it's all been said and done. I'm still my number one.

And he was like, nah, just makes me cringe when I hear that. He's like, I just like, do you have

to be like, can it not be like, you're still my number one? And I was like, no, it's not about

anybody else. Like, you know, it's about like self love. He's like, yeah, but like, do you need to

like talk about self love like that? And I was like, well, I feel like I need to. It's like, well,

but you know, there's something else we could say there. Like we just kept, you know, we kept coming

back to this song. Okay. And I was like, I, and I changed it. I tried changing it. What did I

change it to? It was like, it wasn't you're still my number one. Cause it just made no sense. It wasn't

about some love thing or like someone else. I changed it to something else. And it just,

it was the one thing that I was like, I'm really sorry, Rick. Like I get it. And if it sounds

cringey to you, it's definitely sounding cringey to other people too. And that sucks. But I don't

know how else to say this in a way that I want to put that song out anymore. But there were other

songs for sure where Rick was like, that or this, that word feels a little trite. You already said

that one. Can you say it in a different way? That was really helpful. And then, yeah,

it's really interesting. Cause you're trying to say something so simply and yet not make it cringe.

And that's really hard. That's, that's like a, that's a strange art form because you want to

say some of the greatest love songs. We, we looked at the, the without you song. I mean, that's,

the whole thing is cringey. If you just read it on paper, like it's like, like it's a court report

or something, but yet it's not, especially one song, maybe, but no, there's something about,

yeah, maybe. Song in a way you believe it. When you believe it, but also written in a way that's

singable in the way you believe it. So it's like, it rolls off. It just comes out in a way that just

feels like silky and no word catches your mind is cringy. Yes. But then music, I think great

speeches are like that too, or just, you know, conveying, communicating ideas simply. That's the,

that's the art form is to not be cringy. So interesting. And then yet, cause like when you're

raw and real, it might have first feel cringy. So the battle there, and that, that's where

you see people fail. Like just regular artists, like, I don't know, open, at open mic, I got

open mic. So I just listen to musicians, like when they write songs, like they, they fail that test.

They write simple stuff, but it's cringey. Why? I wonder what was that? Like, what is that?

I'm telling you, Lex, I tried to explain this to my brother the other day.

Cause it's the same thing with a live performance. If I'm not in my right headspace and I walk on

stage and I walk up and let's say, I say something and I do this. Yeah. Cause I'm like, this is the

move, right? I'm like, this is the move. The crowd doesn't care. In fact, the crowd is like,

that's cringey when you did this. But if I wasn't thinking about doing this and I went up there

and I said something and I really meant it in my body was like, I can't explain this to you.

It's so silly to say out loud, but it's, people will resonate to it when it's real. And when it's

acted, it doesn't, you could do it the exact, the motion could look the same. Your eyes look the

same, but there's something about the energy that people know. They know if it's real or not.

Yeah. People, like you said, incredible bullshit detections.

100%. I'll go on a stage and if I'm not in the right headspace to be real, it won't be a good

show. If I'm real, then it's a good show. It's as simple as that. Let's go through the song.

Like I said, great opener. So you had this in your mind, this landscape? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. The beat was first on this.

What about the first and the second and like first things first? The first line I wrote was

first things first. I don't know why it just was like, and then I was like, oh, that principle of,

you know. Great line. Don't second things second. Don't you tell me what you think that I could be?

I'm the one at the sale. I'm the master of my seat. I'm the master of my seat.

My dad had that in his office. He had this saying that was something about the sailor

and being the master of his seat that I always loved. There you go. Simple statement.

Zero cringing. It's so powerful. It's so simple. I'm the master of my seat. This whole song is

just trivial, but in terms of lyrically, but extremely powerful and original, unique sounding,

something about the words. Just even, you don't have to actually sing them. You just read them,

and then raw. I was broken from a young age, took myself into the masses, writing my poems for the

few that look at me, took to me, shaking me, feeling me singing from the heartache, from the

pain, taking my message from the thing. I can't. Why am I reciting your words to you? The percussionist

throughout it. That was there in the beginning. The percussionist is almost in the lyrics.

Yeah. I'm a very percussive singer because I was a drummer first. I think same with Dave Grohl,

probably a similar thing, which is I think in percussive sense a lot when I'm writing. I also

was before I could play an instrument, I would beatbox. I think Michael Jackson did this too,

actually. I've heard in the studio that he was very similar, but a lot of what I do is percussive

because my brain thinks in it, percussively first.

A little more because it's so good.

It's almost like a drum. Like,

and then you lay words on that.

Yeah. Yeah, this

is building. It's almost like drums.

It's all building to the chorus.

What about the word pain? When did that come to you?

Pain. You made me a believer.

Yeah, just the idea of... I really, one of the things that a lot of the songs that I like,

I like divisiveness. For instance, not always, but there's times where I want someone to hear

a song and I want them to either love it or hate it. I really don't want them to be in the middle

ground. A lot of my favorite songs are divisive songs. For instance, with pain, I want you to

hear that. It's something either somebody's going to hear and they'll be like, man, I just

don't want to hear that like that. Or it's like, oh, I felt that so deeply when he said that in

that way because it sounded like this. When you think of the word pain, it's like,

that's a... At least for me, when I hear that word, it carries a lot of weight.

It carries a lot of weight. I wanted to sing it with a lot of weight and to come into that chorus

with like, it's a striking moment. I'm also a baritone singing as a tenor. That's where that

natural roughness comes from as I'm singing out of my range really, up in my head voice,

and it carries a lot of weight with it because of the baritone.

Can I ask you a specific pause before the pain? It's really interesting because it's like a double...

What is that? How much work does that take to get that right? That's incredible because it's

like a... So you're seeing the beauty through the... And then whatever that sound is the...

Right, the bass being rolled off. Yeah, I actually, when I first was approaching the chorus, it was

actually... Like it came in on one. I'm not singing it right right now, but it did not wait. And it

felt like it didn't hit in the way that it was supposed to hit because you predict that. You're

waiting to... Right, it was like... So I wanted to feel a little more striking. Again, it's like

that thing that makes you kind of do this a little bit. You're like, huh? But once you hear it a few

times, you're like, ah, ah. And you predict... You know what I mean? It's like, I'd rather someone

hear our song the first time and be confused by it so they play it the second time. And then

they're like, oh, okay. You know what I mean? I really don't want... I'd rather turn some

people off along the way and then the people who come along for you are going to feel more

committed, I think. It's just an interesting... It feels gutsy to insert silence.

Yeah, that's what makes it... It's like the greatest speakers of all time are like,

and I told you... Right. You would know. You're like, oh, yeah. What is that? Yeah,

that's so interesting to do that just at the right time. And then pain, right? Man, it's a brilliant

song. Did you know it was a good song when you wrote it? Out of the thousands of songs you've

written? You know, it's always the same thing for me, which is all... If I want to listen to the

song and I want to listen to it a lot of times, then those are the songs we put out. And I only

want to listen to the songs that make me feel something. Whether or not it's... Our single

that did the very worst of all our singles was the song that I wanted to listen to the least,

but it made the most sense as a single, which was all the wrong reason to choose it. I bet my life

is the single off our second album. And that song was originally written. It was just a guitar

and a vocal. And it was very just quiet and laid back. And we were like, well, let's try to dial it

up. Let's try to produce it. And we overproduced that song. We self produced it as a band and we

overproduced. And that song... I mean, it did good in terms of a song, but for us it did not do good

compared to our other songs. And I really looked back at that and learned a lesson from that.

It's like, if I don't want to listen to the song, that's a sign already. If you don't want to listen

to your own song, it's probably not a good song. Yeah. You said your dad, also wearing today,

just said that your dad early on was a kind of the early Rick Rubin. Yeah. So when you were

starting out, he gave you feedback. He listened. What did you learn about music, about life from

your dad? My dad is a really quiet farm, grew up on a farm, very humble. I think he starts every

sentence by saying, this is just my two cents, pretty much. He's like, take it or leave it.

Like, you know what I mean? He's that kind of a sense, like there's humility in everything.

And it's real for him. It's not like false humility. I really feel like when he's saying

things, he really is like, maybe this isn't any worth to you, son. And he means it.

But here it is. And it's always gold. And I'm like, wow, dad, that's incredible.

So what in those early days of you, like, so you were like 12 or something like that,

like starting to write songs? I was 12. I wasn't showing my music to anyone. I started writing

right when I was 12. And I probably wrote for at least, let's say six months or something.

And I had written probably, I don't know, like a lot of songs during that.

What was the topic, by the way? Love, anger?

It was all sad. No, it was the first song I ever wrote when

and it was like a bluesy thing. It was like, there was my voice to that. And then it was like,

all by himself, no other one around. And he stood all alone. When would he be found?

Did he want company? Or was he found on his own? Everyone needs a friend. So why was he all alone?

You know what it is? But I was like a 12 year old with, I just felt like depressed for the first

time. And I just was like so... I think he discovered the blues as a 12 year old.

Yeah, right. It really was. It was like my sense of the blues at that time, for sure.

Like bad version of the blues, but it was like 12 year old kid with a bunch of acne.

I hated going to school. I felt like that I just had not found myself.

Sounds like a great song, by the way. I wanted to keep listening. I forgot I was...

Yeah, I don't know about that. But yeah.

What was your dad? At which point did you begin to share it with your dad?

A lot of the songs that I wrote in the beginning were very much like Bobby McFerrin like that,

because Mike was in a part of the house where I couldn't bring over the piano

and the only instrument I played at the time was the piano. So I would do everything with my voice.

But then I started teaching myself the guitar in that beginning like six month period,

just watching my brothers play in their garage bands in the basement.

And then I started to write songs a little more like Enya vibes, like stack my voice like 20,

30 times. And like Enya meets like Jarre, which is who my dad would listen to a lot, John Michael

Jarre, this is incredible synth genius. But anyway, so I finally got my like gall up enough to show

it to my dad one day after work. And I got very little at my dad because there were nine kids

and he worked from 8 a.m. till 6 p.m. We'll come home very tired and here's nine kids that are like,

dad, you know, and you're the young one, you're not... You're just gonna miss... I was in the middle

kind of too, so it's even, you know, middle child thing. But I sat him down and I was like,

hey dad, I just want to like kind of show you a song. And he was like, oh, you know, he didn't

know I was writing anything and I showed it to him and he listened and he took it off and he

really looked at me. It was like, that was really good. He was like, I thought, and this, when you

said this, it made me feel this, he was like, and that did it. I probably would have given up music.

Like I look back, that was a very pivotal moment for me. I was like in a place where I was like,

is this good or bad? I don't know. Maybe it's so embarrassing and terrible. And I was already writing

lyrics that were a little like overly metaphorical to hide that I was dealing with faith crisis because

I thought, okay, I'm gonna show this to dad. I don't want my dad to know I'm like questioning the

truthfulness of Joseph Smith. So I'm not gonna be like, is Joseph Smith a real prophet? Is Mormonism

true? I don't really know. Like, you know what I mean? I was like writing way overly metaphorical,

but because my dad really validated it and he was a no bullshit person. So I knew when my dad

said that, I was like, you know what, at least my dad really actually thinks this is cool.

And I really trusted my dad's taste and thought everything he listened to was cool. So I was

like, wow, I'm gonna keep doing this. And I just showed it to my dad for years and years. And still

to this day, I sent every song to my dad. So he underneath it with the feedback is always like,

ooh, I like this idea. I like this. It's just a positive, like a...

Not always positive, no. But like underneath it, do you sense the positivity? Because I think that's...

Always. Never mean, never malicious. You know, there's like, there's two types of criticism.

There's like criticism that's just like, you're looking to be hurtful to someone. And then there's

criticism that's like, really important for art. It's the type of criticism that's like,

you see the value in what's happening. And if it's honest, then you maybe communicate with that

person like, I see what you're trying to do with that. It's not even like you have to say that

or whatever, like butter it up. But it's like, my dad would just give me this honest criticism

that would be like, you know, it certainly wasn't always good, but I knew it was always

well intentioned. I guess that's how I would say.

So you mentioned, made me re listen to... I'm a big fan of Cass Stevens. You made me

re listen to father and son. I probably all sons have issues to work through with their fathers.

That's just, and you said that you connect with this song in particular. I think, so you're a

father now. What is it about the song that connects with you for people? Let me play it. Let me play

a little bit. People should educate themselves on Cass Stevens. Oh my gosh. Right on the peace

train. The best, the best piece. Right on the peace train. You think this is a hopeful, a sad song?

I hear it as hopeful. I hear it as a loving father saying just what his son needs to hear.

It's not time to make a change. Just relax. Take it easy. You're still young. That's your fault.

There's so much you have. It's like that calm wisdom. Yeah. There's time. It's wise. If you want, you

can marry and look at me. I am old, but I'm happy. And just the way he says that, like, that should

be a corny line, but it's not corny at all. It's like, yeah. Look at me. I'm old, but I'm happy.

Yeah. I mean, the simplicity there. Yeah, but it's such a contrast with, what's his name?

I'm Harry Chapman with the Cats in the Cradle, which is like the sadness of... This feels like

there's a wise, calm connection between father and son, right? With Cats in the Cradle. I don't know

if you remember that song. He learned to walk while I was away and he was talking before I knew

it. And as he grew, he'd say, I'm going to be like you, dad. You know, I'm going to be like you.

And the idea of that song is that he does become like his dad. It's just funny, you know, something

you've said. But in a different way, you become too busy to make that connection. His dad was too

busy to make it connect to his son in a, not a dramatic way, in a very kind of calm, natural

way. Like you don't, you just don't have time. You're busy at work, you're providing for the

family and so on. There's connection, but you don't really get the form that depth of connection.

And then the father, when the son shows up from college and all that kind of stuff,

he doesn't spend any time with the father or that. And there's just the calm sadness of that.

We live, we can live parallel lives and never quite connect.

And there is a little bit of that in father and son with Cat Stevens too, you know,

like when the, when the son is saying, um, from the moment that I could talk, I was ordered to

listen. I always, I always remember listening to that line, feeling like that really moved me.

But the beauty of that song is it shows, it's kind of like the theme of what I feel like we've

talked about since the second you got here, which is something I really like, I don't know why it's

such an important theme in my life right now, but the duality of just understanding that you

don't understand someone else's situation. And there's truth to both sides. Like there's truth

to what the father is saying to the son. He's like saying these things and he's like, I'm looking out

for you. I love you. Take your time with these things. If you want to get married, you can like

these things that we have. And then the son saying, listen, like, I want to pave my own path. I want

to do this. Like, why are you telling me this? Like the son's not wrong. Cause there's a lot of parents

who tell their kids what to do and they're wrong. And they don't let the kid form the path that

they need to. But should you not be a parent? Like, you know what I mean? There's just two sides

to everything. There's a thing, it is annoying when you're older, you get to see people do all

the same things. You could say, well, this is a phase and you'll see that this actually will

end up in this way. You can like predict how the life unfolds. And it's very annoying for young

people to hear, especially because it's probably going to be true. It's like, no, it's not going to

be like this. No, it's going to be different. But then you become that person. But that doesn't mean

they also let them live that life, let them make the mistakes. But they're not mistakes actually.

They're like beautiful deviations from the path that they end up on. And those make the path.

Do you have advice for young folks today? You've had like an incredible

dark journey and a successful one, a loving one. And one of the most successful

artists in the world. Is there advice you can give to young people today that would like to find

themselves to that way, especially if they're struggling? I thought you said device at first.

And I was like, honestly, I feel like that device is not helping. Maybe everybody should get away,

throw away their devices. Advice. I would just say like what I emphasize to my kids is

I really, really want my kids to just learn to love themselves. It's easier said than done.

It's really easy to pick on yourself in life. It's really easy to look in the mirror and wish

you looked different, wish you were more successful like that person over there, wish that, you know,

wish a lot of things. And people that I see that really succeed at life

really succeed truly. And that doesn't mean they're making money necessarily or they're

succeeding and, you know, they're talking to a lot of people like their success to me is like

happy and real. They have real self love. You meet, you know, when you meet someone,

you meet Rick, for instance, you meet Rick Ruhman. Rick has a calmness about him. And it's funny

because everybody sees him as this like Zen master like Rick is just a really loving person who also

loves himself and have self confidence because you just see it and it resonates and that's why

he draws people and that's why he's so great in the studio because you know his intentions always

as an artist when a producer comes in, you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are your intentions?

What are you trying to do? Are you trying to get a hit out of me for the label? Or you're

trying to make me something? Are you trying to like make me this so you can prove this about

yourself? Like there's a lot in that dynamic. And the reason that Rick is so good is because

you know his intentions and his intentions come because Rick has that self love. So for me,

find the things about yourself because they're there that you love and really focus in on them.

And it's not selfish. Like I feel like I was brought up in a family too where it was like

never look inward, like be selfless, like serve, serve, serve, which by the way is a true principle

of life. I think you love yourself more when you serve more. I think that's really evident in life.

But also spend time doing the things that make you happy. Take time every day to go on that

walk that you need to go on, listen to that book tape that you need to listen to. Like for me,

that's something I need. I know if I do that, I'm going to be a better dad because I did,

I did, I gave myself some, some love back in life. And I just forgive yourself. I think

forgive yourself because everybody messes up. Everybody hurts others. Everybody says unkind

words at times. Everybody, everybody fails all the time. And if you think that you're going to not,

you're wrong and you're eventually going to, and you're either going to punish yourself for it

every day and be a lesser version of what you could be, where you're going to forgive yourself

for it. And if you learned that that's not something you want, then try not to do it again.

If you do it again, and you're probably going to do it again, whatever that is, you're going to gossip

about that person. You're going to feel bad because then you gossiped about someone.

Is this something you could say in terms of self love? Is there a role for being critical on

just like that, those demons of like self criticism? Do you need a little bit of that? Tom

Waits talks about, I like my Tom with a little drop of poison. Do you need a little poison?

Or is it, is that silly or a mental situation poison?

Look, it's my biggest thing in life that has been like the thing that I've worked on the

hardest for the last few years is to not be overly critical and to let go of control. I think

it's really easy to kill an artist. It's really easy to kill an artist. Like if my dad would

have sat down with me that day, and even if he would have just sat down and been like,

good job son, okay. It's not silly, right? Like I didn't, not everybody has a dad who's going to

ever do something or put in the time or whatever, but that would, that might have altered everything

for me. Like my dad taking the extra time to be, to just give me a thoughtful response,

opposed to kids know, kids know when you're, when you're just like trying to get out of the room

or whatever. I knew he wasn't and that did a lot. So yeah.

But is that, is that a huge, isn't that what makes the artist? Is the fragility of it that,

like, would you have it any other way?

No, no, I agree with you. I think that that's what, that, that's the beauty of art. But I think

also on the same token, it's like, I went to, I went to music cares recently, which is a charity

for musicians that are down on their luck, that maybe we're successful at one point or I've never

been successful and they can't build and pay the bills and this charity contributes money to these

artists, aspiring artists or artists who've had drug issues and like there's a lot that they do,

but, and there was a statistic that they told it was staggering to me, which is I think it was 75%

of artists, musicians say they struggle with severe depression. That's really high. I don't

know what the national average is, but I would guess that that's higher than national average

per occupation. So I just think there's a tricky balance, there's a tricky balance in, in art.

So yeah, of course, like, it's, it's a necessary thing, the fragility of it all. But um,

yeah, I wonder, because I'm extremely self critical. And I sometimes ask myself the question,

I've romanticized it, or rather, I've learned to be, for it to be productive to channel it

into productivity. But I wonder if there's better ways to do that. And I also wonder if it's

eventually the thing that destroys me, like if long term, if it's a healthy thing, it might be

useful when you're in sort of actively fighting the battles of the day, the, for me, it's engineering

challenges and all that kind of stuff. But then when you're sitting back and enjoying life with

family and so on, is that going to be like, do you need to find that self love, like ability to

kind of silence the voice of criticism in your head? You know what, I really, there's a good,

you're making a good point. And I think that the middle ground is you need,

you need self doubt to push you to be better. I do believe that like, for instance, if I,

if I believed, I've hit my, like, when you're like, these are a song on there that you think is

genius. If I, if I think I've written a genius song ever, I think I'd probably stop. I think I'd

be like, you know what, did it? I wrote, what's that perfect song? Imagine. Imagine, yeah.

Okay. If I'd written imagine, I'd probably be like, that's it, did it. All right. Perfect song has

been written. That's the best thing I'll ever do. So the fact that, that there is like,

self criticism and criticism outside, I think is necessary. 100% for sure. It pushes you,

it pushes you, it pushes you. It's just finding the right middle ground for that young aspiring

artist to also not feel squashed and to be heard and to love, just to, not even to feel squashed,

just to love themself. So that when they're in the room playing the song, they'll believe it,

because they believe themself. They love themself enough that they believe it and then they'll do

a great, and then the song will come out great and they'll do a great performance.

I have to ask, it's one of the very interesting aspects of your life of the way you put love

out there in the world. What is at the core of your support for the LGBT community?

A couple of things. So one, growing up in, from a young age in the artist community,

a lot of my closest friends were LGBTQ, starting in middle school.

And I think a lot of the best artists in the world are LGBTQ and that's just, it's not a secret.

Like the artist community is filled with lots of LGBTQ people. So I think being raised in that

community in that my friends struggled with their faith and their sexuality really opened up my eyes

to how incredibly hard that path is. For instance, okay, when I was in high school,

there was someone who went in front of who was LGBTQ and was Mormon and felt like there was not a

place for them in the church. They felt like the path, you know, when you're being told that it's

evil and you believe it because you believe in your faith and you feel like it's unchangeable,

you're putting a kid in a situation where there's really no good resolution. It's either be alone

for the rest of your life or marry outside your sexual preference, which I don't want to marry

a man. Like if I was forced to marry a man, I'm like, I don't want to marry a man because I'm

heterosexual. So you're forcing a kid into a situation where it's very dangerous.

Long story short, this kid went in front of the Las Vegas Mormon temple and shot himself,

killed himself. That impacted our community. And not just that, but it was like

severe bullying to LGBTQ kids. In the 90s, it was especially different. Like,

there's still bullying, don't be wrong, but man, like bullying in school, I don't really know

actually what it's like in schools now. Maybe the bullying is just as bad as it was in the 90s, but

there was like, it was like, I would hear all the time, like the F slur being slung out at people

who were LGBTQ all the time. And I wasn't even LGBTQ. So just seeing that, I think that every

any social justice issue takes all sides. It takes all pieces of the puzzle. If only the

pieces of the puzzle contributed are from the side that is affected, I don't believe that

we'll ever have a resolution. We're doing a shit job, and we need to do better. And that's just,

that's the reality of it. So that's part of the reason I also have family who's LGBTQ,

and it's just something that's been part of my path. And I feel like I'm a big believer and

take the path that is presented to you. And this was just something that came up in my life a lot.

When I met my wife, she was living with her two best friends who are LGBTQ, who really didn't

want her to marry me because I was Mormon. And at the time it was Prop 8, which was Mormons were

fighting against LGBT gay marriage. And so that then they didn't come to our wedding and that

really broke my wife's heart. So it was just like, because Mormonism represented everything that was

against their community. So you felt you had to say something? Yeah, I felt like by not saying

anything, I was saying everything. I felt like by not speaking up and being like, hey, Dan Reynolds

is Mormon singer. Here's this new band, Magic Dragons, and they're Mormons. It was like,

okay, well, what do Mormons represent? They represent Prop 8. What does Prop 8 represent?

Bigotry towards the LGBTQ community. So what do I do? Okay, I can speak in every interview and be

like, well, that's not me. I don't believe that too. Or I could just be more active about it. And

especially when it was affecting my family and friends throughout my entire life, it was like,

all right, this seems like a path that you need to go down. So long story short,

it was a path that just presented itself through things in my life.

So just on that topic, religion and God give a lot of meaning to a lot of people. It gives

tradition that brings people together across the generations, but it also can hurt people.

What do you make about that tension? So a source of meaning, but also a source of pain for people?

The reality is, at least to me, again, this is just my reality. I feel like I'm doing my dad's

thing every time I'm talking to him. I'm like, I don't really know. Here's my two cents.

You have become your father. Yeah.

Yeah. The reality, and it's my reality, and it is the reality for sure.

There's, I think that religion has brought a lot of hurt and pain to a lot of people.

Absolutely, it has. I don't think anybody can dispute that on either side.

Whether it's war, whether it's slaughtering of entire peoples,

there's been a lot of pain and suffering that has come from religion.

So my little thing that has been hard for me is a faith crisis. I had religion,

and then I lost it, and then I had nothing. So that's, for me, I was like, well, religion

did that to me. But then at one point, it's kind of like, how much of my life am I just

going to complain about being raised Mormon or being depressed? As I get older, I'm like, okay,

so what? Okay, it's really hurt me, but were there any good things that came out of Mormonism?

Well, yeah, there's a lot of good things that have come to my family through Mormonism.

Closeness were really, really close. Mormon culture is that you live together forever.

The teaching is that your families are forever. We die and then we go to heaven together and

we're together forever. My family really believes that principle, all of them do.

And that instills a certain way of living that's kind of beautiful, even if it's naivety.

There's something kind of beautiful about believing that we're forming these bonds

together as a family and that we're going to be together forever. It brings a lot of comfort to

a kid too. When I was little, I was like, wow, it's going to be okay if I die because I get to

see my mom again. You know what I mean? I really believe that. Is the right answer that you tell

that kid? Actually, when you die, you're not going to see your mom again. Maybe it might be. I don't

know. And anybody who has a kid is going to face that moment. I've already faced it where you sit

down and my kid was like, hey, dad, when you die, am I going to see you again? That was actually a

really hard moment for me because I was suddenly faced with, okay, do I give the answer that I

thought was bullshit? Or do I give the answer of what I think it is? Or do I give the real answer

which is, I don't know. And that's what I chose, which is a father that's not always the easiest

answer because your kid, it's a wonderful thing that you feel like you can give your kid the

comfort of like, hey, your parents are going to take care of everything. We know everything.

We've been around. My kid's always like, are you the strongest? I'm like, yeah, I am the strongest.

Stronger than everybody. Yeah. Yeah. So when you're faced with that moment, it's like,

it kind of sucks to tell your kid like, you know what? I don't know if you're going to see me after

I die. But I hope. That's what I said. I was like, I don't know, but I hope. I really hope

because that would be awesome if we can hang out forever. And if there's any way for it to happen,

I'll make it happen. You know what I mean? That's kind of what my answer was. So long, so short.

Sorry. I know that I'm being lengthy on this. Is there like, what is my thought on religion?

It just is, it's gonna, it's been here forever. It's coping. It maybe it's, I can't say whether

it's true or false. How the hell am I supposed to know? I mean, like, I've lived 34 years on this

planet. A lot of people have been around a lot longer than me. And they really believe very

deeply. And a lot of them are smarter than me. You know what I mean? Like, I look at my older

brothers, for instance, who are very practicing Mormons. These guys are hyper intelligent.

My younger sister, hyper intelligent, all of them start smarter than me. They all believe it

still. So what am I supposed to say? Well, you're all stupid. You know what I mean? Like, you're

all wrong. I don't know. Maybe like, maybe it's the South Park episode where everybody dies. And

then they're like, well, the right answer was Mormonism. And I mean, like Mormon Mormons love

that moment in South Park. They're like, Hey, that day may come. That day may come.

Yeah. So maybe, maybe I don't know is the honest answer for everybody around the table.

But the biggest question for which I didn't know is the right answer is, what's the meaning of this

whole thing? What's the meaning of life? No, you're not allowed to say I don't know.

You can be just like your dad and say, let me just give my two cents.

Whatever it's worth, take it or leave it. It's probably worth nothing,

at least, on the ground. I mean, what, why are we here? Is it just busily creating all these kinds

of things, worrying about things, having kids? I, my purpose, at least right now,

is to wake up and try to bring light love to the world, light love to myself, and have integrity.

That's my purpose. The ultimate purpose of life that I guess that's my ultimate purpose of life.

I don't know what happens when I die. Ayahuasca gave me some sense that there's more to be known.

I'm sure there are other things in life that would give me that, and I'm looking for it.

I'm a seeker. I'm always looking for the next something to give me hope in something more,

even if so, I could just not bullshit my kids when they ask me that question and be like,

you know what? I really don't know. I want to not know more, if that makes sense. I don't want to,

I want to see things that make me confused, that make me question what I already knew.

When I meet an atheist who comes up to me and they're like, atheism, atheism, atheism.

It's just as laughable to me as when I meet the Mormon who comes up and they're like,

Mormonism, Mormonism, Mormonism. I'm like, how do you anyone? How do you guys know?

So you feel like you're doing some, through all your travels, through all the people you

meet, you feel like you're still keeping your eyes open and your heart open to discover

or discover something new, like the ayahuasca experience, that there might be deeper truths

out there. Yeah. And I want to find them. And I want to surround myself with people who are

just looking for it. I'm not interested in people who are just looking to point fingers at each,

like life is so short. I'm looking for, it's one of the reasons that I wanted to meet with you

is I was like, wow, Lex really seems like he's on a journey to find truth. And that

humility for me is same thing with Rick. It drew me to Rick. It was like, I really,

I see that and identify with it. And that's what I'm looking for. There's the final song on our

record, our new record that's coming out. The chorus goes, and this is like, this is my best

answer to what you're asking. The chorus goes, take it easy on me. I need some lullaby. They tell

me heaven's just a lie. Well, I'm not surprised. Tell me that you know. No, you don't. Yeah,

you're just like me. Can we just all hope for the best? Take it easy. So that's it for me. It's

like, I'm going to play something from like, I don't know. Tell me, you know, I'm not going to

believe you. Maybe you do. I'm not going to believe it, but like, let's just be easier on each other

and like, try to find truth wherever it may lie. But above all, know that we don't know jack shit.

I think that's a mic drop moment. Dan, thank you so much. You're an incredible human. I love that

you share with the world the darkness of your mind, of your life experience and the beautiful

light that you've shown to the world. So it's a huge honor and thank you for spending your valuable

time. Good luck on the tour. Thanks, man. Thanks for having me. Thanks for listening to this

conversation with Dan Reynolds. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the

description. And now let me leave you with some words from Aldous Huxley. After silence, that

which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music. Thank you for listening and hope to see

you next time.